08-30-2017 Kosher Sukkah Mats

hello and welcome to starcade monthly webinar again we heard the last Wednesday of the month at 12:00 noon Eastern Star K's headquarters in Baltimore Maryland I'm Rafi Goldberg your host with me today rabbi bar fire again thank you for joining thank you and on your screen we're going to get to you a chat box in a video if anybody can hear us out there please chat with us just say hello as long as one person answers we know that we are getting the word out thank you again for joining us we all hear you move to only be one person that is true right numbers numbers don't matter anymore okay thanks very much for joining we have we are our previous webinars are archived at star dhk org slash videos and also on our vimeo channel on youtube channel and you can this one will also be archived within a couple days at those same addresses I do want to mention that with what's going on down you soon we had a few years ago a webinar about my Frankl was ahead of our loft Institute on storm weather okay and and for those that are interested or need that you can look at that address star - Kade or G slash videos and look for the webinar from January 28th 2015 two years ago and that has a lot of information people might need hopefully they don't need it hopefully they're okay but yeah you know I heard this community the Jewish community is being affected is affected wondering about that okay okay so today we're going to discuss scoff mats suka mats which have become very popular in past 10-15 years or so of course when I was growing up we we used bamboo so this was like the official end of summer now why do we have this webinar right now for Labor Day right before Labor Day it's still the summer the answer is if you're going to start loading right you're going to start to be thinking the other option was to have it right before Rosh Hashanah it's a little bit late this way we give an opportunity to people to we're interested to going and know what they are going to be purchasing now is really the time to do it um I would say rabbi bar that this webinar is a little more involved maybe than some some previous ones that we've had because there are a lot of the locals that apply to the scoff mats so you know it's a little more what pay attention yeah right okay if you have any questions feel free to chat with us I think we'll talk a little bit maybe 10 minutes and then and then we'll see if there are any questions that we could we could deal with okay if oh I forgot to mention if you want to call us we also have a phone line called not call us to speak to us because to listen we have to one eight eight nine five one two zero three two one eight eight nine five one two zero three Pascoe twenty twenty pound its let's talk about the stop mats we advertise we're going to speak about the different strings that I use to hold them together how to put them up how do you tie them down are there any bugs in the mats like insects and the home depot mats and one more thing last year the advertiser advertised a rain free map a map that you can put up and you would have no rain and just look it's called the really yeah the mutter mat the frame number I'll turn man yes wait rain no rain madam right right the mother met which was mutter it was yes according to many of opinions it was mooted it was allowed because it met all the specifications I haven't have seen that advertised anymore I don't know what happened to it but we'll try to get ads pretty neat no Rain Man so they don't need a lock or no nothing actually you can sit in the sukkah when it's raining dance wallets right and just get a little bit way no you want fulfill medicine you will turn when it's raining you can sit in the circuit and it's bad with something I don't know why didn't I haven't seen it but maybe it will come make a comeback okay let's talk some some background first there are three requirements for Scott one is it has to grow from the ground so it has to be some natural substance as opposed to something which are artificial like plastic or anything else that doesn't grow it has to be detached from the ground so if you have a vine or branches which I will grow from the ground but the you can just pull them over your Sookie off the first detach them and then put them on your on your circle and number three it can't be macabre tunnel it can't be something that is able to become impure so examples of things that become impure are any clothes food utensils okay things that that don't become impure like wood plain wood or like bamboo which was the classic you know type of scoff that we all will use so those are the three three requirements metal is not acceptable besides that it doesn't grow it also is macabre tunnel okay so those are the requirements now rabb much refined Steen has a response in Equus Moshe or if I'm the first guy like number 177 it talks about venetian blinds using the nisshin blind as stock now if you remember the old style venetian blinds for older listeners that used to have at home or in school made of wood wooden slats but they had like a cloth that with connecting that that's what pulled up right they they blind it was like a cloth I've got this they can still get this charge a premium for them really okay I found out they just have like a piece of string so they're made of wood and so what's the problem with them sir moisture says that the cloth that holds them together is macabre to me a piece of course in the problem it's woven it's like it's like clothing really and it can accept him and therefore not only is it held together with something that is tummy in the cobble Toma but it the whole mat becomes something that is macabre to me he brings proofs for that so the whole mat is no good from the Torah you would not do you would not fulfill your obligation if you used a venetian blind as as stuff now let's so let's go to finish upon anyway those the slats of a new supply aren't they finished more than in a sense that they will be able to love because of that maybe but even if they wanted it wouldn't be a problem because of the cloth to hold them together now they're various types let's jump right away to the various types of mats that out there nowadays there are let what I call like the docks type the the doctor emeritus role and other certain certifications that hold these slats which usually bamboo slides that a thin bamboo slats meant but what are you hold it together with they hold it together with a natural fiber not not no wolven string it's like something that grows like that it actually the way it grows and I use that to interweave there's the various sliced that has no amount to my problem to slash themselves are just thin sliced Oh pieces of wood or bamboo is not a problem and what's holding together is something that grows and smells we may go to the best level and what's up CeeLo so that's that's right that's a kosher no issues with that the starcade mats are normally having plastic strength like a monofilament which is a fancy way of saying fishing fishing fishing wire right and that is not a couple to me either there's no too much plastic so therefore those also don't have any problem and those all together the this last well but the issue though okay we get you want to talk about okay why are we particular about that well we'll get to this multi well if it would be okay so okay so if it would be can you tell by looking at the filament if it's mom if it's mono mono filament yes because Milo film is just fishing string it's just one piece of plastic if it would be like a a plastic twine that would be a problem you can tell by looking at yeah even if they make any like that no but but if it would be it would be a problem because the string then might possibly be been cobbled to MIT because it's a it's a string same thing with the cotton string Mets which you just do I had like right yours always came out even 3040 years ago those are all there are those that say that those are acceptable they some have a certain air share the ones they help together with cotton string regular like kite string right behind me doesn't like them because there are some opinions that this string since its spun it would be awesome a couple tumor they make the whole map move a cobble Toma so he doesn't it doesn't it doesn't approve of those but either of these the ones that are made with plain fibers or the ones that are made with the plastic string do not have any problem that that the string isn't a cobble tumor so the map doesn't have that issue okay that's number one number two is that there's a problem of Mahmud okay mommy is a Hebrew word man I am menu Dalit which means to support support the support of the staff should not be with something that is macabre to mow or something that's not kosher for scoff you something that's supporting the ska because I'll say the Gemara says should be ideally ideally with a few ax should be something that is kosher for South okay so now so let's if you use something that's not kosher off it would be still acceptable you can make a brothel but it wouldn't be ideal so let's again look at these at these two different types of stock mats you have the what I call the big dots type the ones that I held together with playing natural fibers like a hemp or something like so that something that grows as in they use that so those you you're not supporting the the mat with anything that's that that's perfectly kosher for Scott this spring even if you just use that as that on top of your Sokka would be kosher so that's perfectly okay it doesn't have any issue the ones that start gay gives that you tube which is made it's again plastic string those have been held together and supported by something that's not kosher for stock right so we have to get around that problem but what why do we give an extra do this in the first place or behind them and felt the ones that are made with a natural stream are don't last that long and on last few years the last but ongoing it doesn't have to buy a new a new man also they're more expensive and he's worried about corals month so he came up with this idea to use the plastic stream and to explain how to get around the problem of the moment of the support it shouldn't be supported by the place Heinemann's idea to use the plastic stream as far as I know yeah even somebody suggested it in I don't know that's what maybe they were out there and we just I'm not sure maybe somebody approached us going back a long time allegedly I might even there's a lot of good ideas he was saying that one's so good and occurred to him and his wife is officially labeled like fishing wine okay now what is that what is what is the the issue with this with this with this stark a type of map you know you have to understand that you're not supposed to support the Scott with something that's not kosher for Spada so now let's talk about how we go ahead with this let me bring this up here so what's happened to your question you're asking so our monofilament well let me show you let me show you what the problem with the monofilament is Picabo Tula and it would be supporting the Nama cobble to the plastic genomica me mmm it's not your ship as an activist that's right so theoretically if someone would put that on there so cup if you put it on your hook in the wrong way then you are supporting the the the Scott with the plastic string so for instance if you have cross beams across your sucker to hold up this mat and the mat is sagging in between the cross beams right so why doesn't the hole why isn't the whole mess one of those little slats follow you because they're being held up by the plant only thing for the plastic right exactly so let me show you over here what we have the way that you put them up here and here we go here this is I put up on the screen for you to see an example of one of our certifications and this leather actually goes with every scoff mat that we sell has to have this letter with it to explain how to put it up and we bigger a little bigger so we can see it okay so you see over here on your screen you see the the cross beams going across right top of all the two cross beams then the next picture shows you that the match should be rolled out perpendicular you don't see it yes he says we don't see it you do see it okay so I'm not sure why don't see it maybe it's being blocked but it is available on our website if you go search on our website start the educate on or search for stock and you'll come up with this with this picture so the math is rolled perpendicular to the beams and why is it why is that important because now the slats are just laying on the cross beams right and even without the plastic there it would be it would be held up anyway right so the other I think the other provides well you might want to have help you here is that I don't know but if there if those cross views are too far apart you're gonna have a similar sagging issue so you're not gonna have enough cross beams okay it should be somewhere there blank you learn that story well but from this picture you can imagine if it was running the other way anyone said it would sag in between that's not the normal way to put them up the normal way to put them up is like this because you need to have so you want to have supported properly but always matters no moisture roll it out but you roll out in this way because right that way you get a better support just even without this whole issue that's the way you want to live on if you would roll it out parallel to the to the slats it's gonna sag in between and this doesn't look very good and it's just not the way that you would want to do it but if you did like that you would have a problem that you're supporting it with the plastic spring cuz that's what's holding if we're falling down correct okay even if you rolled it out like that but the evidence to be kosher do you consider this okay you can make a broth it wouldn't be ideal though let's say I rolled it up that way I rolled it out the wrong the wrong way okay and then so you can get the evidence cause right right mm-hmm but I want to make it better can I now unroll it and roll it back now of course you do that right yes that's re-rolled we roll it and run roll it up a little bit okay so that is how are you supposed to roll are there any questions let's see if there's any let's take some we'll stop here and see if there's any questions as of as of now anybody want to chat with us any any questions let me bring that chat box up good Isaac said you're talking about reeling before young yes not on your teeth right you have to we have to roll out for you David smokes and I'm from Seattle okay so that's that's the the first part of putting up this tower kiss-stock now gets worse there's more to it robot linemen on the stands I've talked to him about this and he understands very well that the other stuff the ones that have the natural string holding together you don't have to worry about this you know so you know it has that it does have that advantage right again he's concerned because they don't last and they're more expensive and he's you know so so that he wants to these are perfectly kosher if you do it in the way that we're saying okay so that's that's but the other one you know you can it's like you just put it up but everyone put it up they're the ones they have the natural scream just put them up it doesn't make any difference mm-hmm okay you can use lots you can use bamboo or you can use a bamboo regular band you can use branches what's that he's branches right okay give it a name this right okay now let's go further now you want to make sure that the that the these cough doesn't blow away in a normal wind and a regular wind for your area hardly if it blew away you wouldn't be able to sit there obviously but you know if you get about your stuff even when it's not windy you have to it's only kosher if it were a normal winter would it stay on okay so normal mine is with normal for the area in there every day you know a normal normal day and so usually a mad you would have to hold down in some way ten below so that it shouldn't it shouldn't blow away so if you have the ones that are made with the natural stream you can just put some wood on top and hold it down that's fine you should not be tying you down with plastic string or those plastic ties that are convenient the problem with those are that again they're not kosher viscacha and you're being mom and you're supporting it or rather in this case holding it down from the wind with something that's not kosher to stop what you can use is something called raffia are are a fi8 so isn't it natural five-minute to hold it together I thought that was like this it's RA I or or sometimes like this I feel with an H you can you can you can get the natural string it's not spun it's not woven you can get it at like jo-ann fabrics and you can even get it on Amazon they think yeah like everything else in the world and it's just a natural string not should not spawn not woven and that that you can if you have a actually I do have a natural fiber stop engine and I tied down with raffia so that it will not in many places that I wouldn't blow off in a no I will in normal ways yes it works perfectly the RAF feels like the whole width is a little like the gradual breaks easy not so easy but over time we get brutally out of it how long have you had this unnatural I've had a long time I've had it maybe 10 up to 10 12 years that's waiting for that so here we going but it is falling apart at this point the last 10 years sort of lasted it's it is challenged a little bit some parts of it are because when it does get very windy and it blows it just shred shreds so one side is really shredded but I work with it so why you parents asks if the plastic ties are outside this book of % e is it kosher not if they're holding down the the stock it doesn't matter if they're inside the sucker outside the soup if they're only knows cos it's the same the same issue he it wouldn't make this hookup possible but it wouldn't be ideal it would be did you have any but not what I feel ok now so get coming back to the starts on that one just as I once had a neighbor who made his hook up and he he had going around the inside of the sucker he had like a recessed ledge mm-hmm so that way when the mat went out went down so he had top so basically the map was actually kind of like recessed into the sucker so that it wasn't focused once through the windows to the wind yeah was that me because I do that you do that yeah I recessed it into the wooden walls so that it's like a few inches below [Music] again you have to be concerned about an abnormal women when that abnormal wind comes on the young and it blows off your soca then then you're kind of stopped so I said you wanted to do what you can if it's held down in some way that the normal wind would not blow it off let's say you tie down some raffia and now you want to use the plastic string to tie down so an abnormal wind would not even blow it off that you can do because once it's already gone once it's on and that's all right it's like mom at the moment it's not a problem right now let's get back to this Starrcade scott with the plastic string the monofilament hold it together you want to put something on top of it to hold it down from from a normal wind so yeah you have to sort of picture it but let's say you put beams let's say two by four because the graph feels alright no arms no you could not use the raffia because what's gonna happen is imagine picture that you don't you're only gonna tie down the raffia in a few places right so picture that a wind would come from underneath if not for that plastic string the whole thing would blow except the places where you tied it down with Rafi unless you use raffia everywhere understand let's say you're tied down from the four corners with raffia and the wind comes from the middle well it's gonna blow up like a sail but what's holding it from blowing away totally is that plastic stream that's a problem so would you write what you're gonna do is put beams on top and again those beams have to go perpendicular to the slats basically usually they'll be sitting on above the bottom beams in order so that what's what it's holding down through all the slots and you're not using the string at all and that information is also in our in our later so on the bottom the slide should be perpendicular to the slats on the top they should be perpendicular to the slats and in that way you have a kosher that you have a kosher circle well down okay well that's that's the way that it's all in the letter that we get out of and all in it's all right there is that letter it's outside the bag outside I think it is that it's part of the lip there - I'm gonna read it before you buy it it was a little like circular no not looking like that because there's almost a goofy goodbye they're bringing home is like okay this will only take 36 steps to put up until you've walked a mat because you thought it would be easier right yes it's on it's the letters attached it's on our website and that's the way you put it up okay chefs it's easiest to put two by fours on top of stuff the way we'll keep it on okay agreed if you can support that weight Josi says I was once told that Cecil string sold and Home Depot is not McCobb Optimo you're familiar with the string I am NOT I don't have what it is maybe you could send us an email have it right here but it doesn't say what it is it sounds natural okay but I'm not gonna investigate right now so if you send us an email to info at star - Georg and send us a link we'll try to take a look at it and if you have any questions on this or other topics that's a good address as well info at star - kado RG or you can call us at four months zero four eight four four one one zero okay that's the way that you put up the DMS let's move on a little bit the home depot mass okay what are the home people mess so the CRC in Chicago did some research on this I'm gonna bring this up for you I'm good you'll excuse me I'm going to change your screens a little bit so I can bring up this this document okay here's so this is from last year so I do not know okay I do not know what what the CRC is going to come out with this year but this is the document from last year's showing that their particular mats sold at Home Depot and they give you they give you the home depot in Chicago yes but they were available all over the particularly brands add a point out which are fencing actually they're really made for fencing and they are kosher for stuff but they were last year we'll see what the CRC does this year these have these things claws they're very cheap I can see I see themselves tell you anything it's not on this page but on the other page you can get it for $28 it's about my javelin says you can get over $28 that is one of the reason I can help in it they're big six foot by 16 for 2498 right so big energy that's I believe what the CRC was getting at though they're very cheap and for people that think and cheap is good then have you know it's cheap now what a thing about these masses they're held together with metal string oh and so that raises the question metal we know is in a couple Toma so why isn't that just like the venetian blinds that Ramona said it makes the whole mad Makabe lumen the whole thing is possible that is the $64,000 question yes indeed and they answer that question there is more to this document apparently or just that one oh here's the second picture this okay so on this second page you can read about how they answer this this question is it clear of each other can you read okay and the answer is basically that that this is made for fencing these home depot mats and that is called mesh tamashii macaca it's made to be used for the ground things I made for the ground are not macabre to me as a with the venetian blinds which are just made to be taken in and out of your little rods on top they're not made to be used with the ground that's that's their the distinction that run by first from Chicago May and therefore he said it's kosher rabbie Hyneman was we asked her Monument and he felt this as a compelling logic to this and he also agreed tennis so now they do point out over here on the side again on the second page that coverage is an issue that you know that the Scotland needs to cover more than 50% of your so there has to be more shade than fine okay they tested a number of them and they found that maybe you get 60% coverage because the actual answer or two plots are thin and spacing between them so you're only getting 60% coverage which right in that little area is only 60 percent right which is a which is very close to ping now closer and if you if some of them are broken so then you have all the issues that they discussed one way of solving that is to put put it down put - that's like double the mass okay now they also point out that you have to put up these mats in the same way as a stark a plastic string that's norther that you shouldn't be mom it shouldn't be supporting it with the metal so that's also going to be required for these mats as well and then you see they have a picture over here where they're showing you on the left side you have the right way and on the right side you have the wrong way again because then you'd be supporting it with with the metal wire and then again on top you'd have to see how they have the cross pietà here you see the cross beam on top is also perpendicular to this one so you can see that very clearly over here it doesn't look like it's been to me just looking at the picture it looks like they're pretty close together right but they did they think they studied it pretty carefully so again this is from last year and you'd have to wait to be in touch with this fear soon I say you hope that Home Depot isn't wise to this and you raise like price the prices okay special circus deal you know so we actually got a horse vault went into the heaven they do carry extra stuff for suckers in our local right um depots right so Michael asks us a question if Home Depot mats are kosher lathela is it a waste of money to buy mats with nature or is the extra money spend on mats with an extra well spent okay that's a good question it's a good question and you save your money for a mess right again if you buy the mats that are put together with natural reads like the ones that are certified by the be Dotson and they're just all know their agencies you don't have to water you've got about any of this about the how you place them in how you do them and whether is it similar to two remotion jeweler is it not similar you know then then you you have a mat doesn't have any of these issues so no it's not okay it's not the same so so I don't I'm not sure that ankle and answer Michaels question there is I would say there is an advantage to buying a mat with a half shirt yes but you know if person wants to buy these and put and he puts them up correctly make sure that there's enough coverage and you're going through all the steps you saw what we're behind what was concerned about the cost the tourist cost some how much I saw Tory's worried about the money of course l you know people have limited resources so for me to say you know get together one I don't have a problem I'm not gonna say that but they would say that if there is an advantage behind says there's an advantage because you have to worry about it but I'm just throwing up okay the next question that my class was he says the dots only gives a hex from bamboo mats whereas star K provides a texture on the wooden slats yeah as we explained that's not too different that's not the issue the issue is not the flats or the bamboo our our mats are made up that's not the issue that's not the issue at all no the issue is the string that holds it together as we explained something but our mats are not dimple I think they are slit there I think the slices are wooden I'm saying is that that's not the issue they shrink right I says you really do you really need perpendicular is it 45 degrees okay or any other angle yes so it's not it's not it's not the 90 degrees like yeah your protractor whatever the point is what is holding up is it is it being held apart by the by the string you have two pictures look up at your Scott and say if this string wasn't here would this last just fall through and if the answer is no then they're being held up by the by the beams it's not it's not the particular any goal you know exactly given that the placement issue is the same between home depot and star care mats is there any benefit to star care mats over Andy Forman there is a benefit and benefit is that with the home depot mats you have you ready you have to distinguish between the fell together with metal you have to you have to come up with a reason why it's different than your emotions Trouville which is saying that the whole math is macabre to me to tell together with their that cloth of the venetian blinds and which rabbit fur stand behind them and I have an answer to but with the plastic string it's not similar through emotions people at all and therefore sudden get involved with that right it's not my cotton doesn't get involved with them at all Zeb says done this string hold the pieces together so they don't spread apart well what you're going to do to avoid that is put something on top of them to hold them down like the method the wood that we talked about before well it's I don't want to do that oh the winds gonna blow it away without the string the wind will blow over the way you need to put something on top if you just put up your mat if you just put up your mat without anything it's hard to imagine that a normal wing with none without the string we're not blowing away it's our two minutes you have to hold it down with something I think every decorations alright let's listen let me talk a little bit about the the rain free mass yeah well it was not well it was was a was was a mat that was made with overlaying half bamboo slats so you so like they would cut bamboo in half right and then they have one piece going like this and the one going like that one like that and then over over lane so that any rain would come into the one that's facing up and it would it would spill out the sides and the rain wouldn't come into this circle the problem with that is that the part of the mat know the stock is supposed to let rain into your it's okay somewhat right so what they did to solve that where they make quarter sized holes in the mat which was enough to satisfy the unlock of it rain could come in but not enough they really get used so wet that it would be impossible to sit there so reminded said it's fine so where are these man I don't know they were selling it a few years ago and yeah okay now one more issue I wanted I want to get to is this Scott infestation issue you put up on your screen a but this is a set hours no this came out a couple years ago it actually comes out every year by some organization showing you how it's possible that you have in your in your Scott you have a little bugs like something like book insects like the same can even fix it they eat your book lice book lice so we use the natural wood the natural branches off the trees and it might have been some bugs in there you would think it's possible but you have to be careful with it that they don't come down onto your food the problem is not if they stay in the stock the problem is if they drip down to your look mindfully right I just tried to share it I don't know if it's if you can see if you can you can see that no can't see okay boy but what our take on that is that we have not found it to be like a major major problem it's hard for us to say you know what percentage of Scott is infested what we do we did speak to some some bug experts and and get some some good recommendations from them and what they what they said is that when when the mats get moist that's where it becomes a breeding ground for infestation so if you wrap it into plastic or you leave it in a moist area let's say in your shed outside there in your basement if its moist then it could develop some condensate which is it breeding ground for insects so you should keep it in a climate-controlled area where it's dry and not not humid and don't store it in the in the plastic make sure they can vent on the dry conditions it should not get in the festive but will not be interested in if it's a climate-controlled area right right well in your house you have to find the controller if your basement is very humid and it wouldn't be a good idea store it on your dining room table right if you think that this that the scoff might be it might be infested take it out a couple of days before sokka's spray sunny no it was a sunny days lay it lay it out dry it out and then shake it out okay so that anything would would would fall out right and and that way you should avoid and we got one of those natural natural mats don't shake it out too hard okay climb ass if I put two by fours over the mats can I use a bungee cord to secure okay that's a good question the climb is asking basically the point is if I have something that's holding it down that that's kosher for stuff and it will not move in a normal one but I want to put extra security on it just that piece it's okay you want to put extra security like these bungee cords to make even in a hurricane it wouldn't blow away then then that you can do if it's already held down in a normal wind then that would be that would be fine the last thing I want to address we had a question from re re asks re s an important question he quotes Rob Hirsch that the stock should not be processed and he says that it has to do with the natural aspect of living in the Shems nature and in other words you don't want to live in a house you want to live in a circle the stock should be non-processed something natural not something that's created any quotes is in from horrid or vicious quarter so why do we not follow it a man which is processed wouldn't that be a problem it doesn't follow them you know this idea of living in a natural environment over over circus so I think the general answer to that is that all the time may have misses the reasons behind the misses we can't derive a losses from them that walkers are given in the Gemara the mitchellson are conceptually yes it's correct we try to make this so good it's not a house but to say that a mad therefore should be not kosher or not ideal is it wouldn't be correct to derive it from that idea the Gemara talks about mats the Gomora says that discusses math it's not an idea that came up in the 21st century the Gemara says that mats are kosher as long as inimical to me if they would be used for instance for sitting on for sleeping on they wouldn't be kosher I've got to mention this that was a question what's right mad right mad that I made the other have an extra are not used writer sitting where these matter many like in Far East they use those mats I think they might some of them are a little uncomfortable sleep on because they have like they're on evening or they have a bamboo round bamboo every couple feet it would be uncomfortable but these meta mats with a hash are made for the purpose of stock and generally this isn't they're not made it really wouldn't be a big issue they're not right that's what the actor is telling you they're not they're not made for that that purpose the fencing nets there phenomena are clearly made my fencing so that's not an issue with either so whatever the point about trying to make is that hmm there are ideas belonging Tom and missus reasons behind the message that we can give but we can't derive a lot concerning to say you know what is what isn't kosher let's take some some more questions if we have any yahuda no I'm sorry michael says is there any reason that bamboo poles used for scoff tend to be whole poles and not split half poles which I soon are cheaper and you who this says well they grill holes which even we get them all transporter right they are they are that actually I've looked into this because I was thinking of making my own mutter met with the half bamboo going this way and half and we'll going the other way to save on the cost and actually they're more expensive much more expensive when you have to have them split you can buy them split you can bring them home hold and sit there and cut them yourself if you really have the time and inclination you need the expertise it's it's not so simple appreciated yes it has to be precise but they just sell half splits they would be kosher but it's not practical now if you actually covered your suka with half bamboos let's say facing up like that and the rain couldn't come into them into your sucker then you have the problem we mentioned before right you might get a problem with it getting too heavy sometimes maybe also it's catching so much rain it's not draining properly well the idea would be that you were that you would want to tilt them a little bit so that the rain spills out you'd want to put them on top of your circle tilted even though just a little bit half an inch on one side so the dream spills out the other side otherwise what are you accomplishing okay so I hope that we we answered your questions about the scoff mats again if you have any further questions you can address them to us at info at our - k dot o-r-g and or call us at 4 1 0 44 4 1 1 0 we'll just wait to see if there any last minute last questions one last comment yes we covered this topic I think the art when we have some articles on that cover these are these issues online isn't one of the articles called yes summer undercover undercut undercover the halacha sauce chakra Heinemann's throws an article and he explains a lot of these a lot of these issues that we discussed or rather we took it from Rena Hyneman and brought it into this webinar that's the story we have the so you have the various types of mass and we discuss you have the cotton string again we're not reminding is not a fan of those you have the the ones that held together with natural fibers like a hemp or some fiber that's not woven in any way which are really ideal don't need and you don't require any thoughts or losses how to put them up you have the mats which are held together with the plastic string which is start can usually called stark a mess which are cheaper and more durable you need to know how to put them up so that you're so cool because you're welcome to you will be the instructions read the instructions that come with it wait a few days before get them get them with with it you get the instructions on our website as well and then you have the the Home Depot mats which are held together with the with the middle string which you have all the instructions that you need to follow you need to read that if the COC comes down again with a decision this year and you read the instructions and follow them very carefully to be able to have a kosher mat Ron says bamboo by itself all is fine for stock absolutely absolutely if one hasn't I haven't growing my yard one can use them from the entire stock absolutely and it sounds like Ron is making them available to our listeners and my rabbit or behind them others it's all used my bamboo for a sucker he stayed even if the bamboo poles split over the years they still kosher yes because you're not splitting them in order to catch to use them as a cleat that wouldn't be a problem and bamboo is ideal really ideal doesn't have any of these issues and always it's really something that is culture luckily you don't have to worry about how you put it over it's just so hard but it's harder to put up and harder to store it takes more base I don't think there's it why they know there's no box in the bamboo never heard of those don't find it electron microscope someone will get it right Ron says he does he does supply many local citizen chemical moon okay there we go nice man very nice okay so bamboo was definitely something that's kosher again if you have any questions feel free to email us the archive for this will be up in a couple days I want to thank our Chapman and Debbie Rosenstein for their help in the technical side of things here thank you everybody for joining us thank you we wanted to everybody was in the table a good healthy and happy here to you and your entire families thank you for joining and have a good day take care