06-27-2012 STAR-K Discusses Halachos of E-Commerce Via Computers Re: Shabbos and Yom Tov

starkays monthly webinar I'm Robert C Goldberg and to my right is Robin waterslide Franco director of starkey's halacha Institute of Palo Alto you can join us by phone at 218-895-1203 passcode 2020 and on the web we're at learnkosher dot clickwebinar.com forward slash kosher and we have this webinar once a month on the last Wednesday of the month at 12 noon and we're very glad that you could join us today for the second part of Rabbi Frankel's discussion on computers and we had the the first section was done a few months ago and that is posted at our our website kosher classes dot com you can find it over there but we didn't get a chance to finish because the topic was so vast and so we asked right Frankel to come back again today I mean everything is getting computerized and just you know you can't even uh you can't do anything without without having uh some some involvement in the computer yeah it's nice to be back thank you for having me back here it's really true that um these questions become more and more relevant uh everything becomes more and more computerized so we have to uh give the introduction like we did last time that we are not uh advocating or recommending computer use or internet use uh there's there's been a tremendous upsurge in understanding of the dangers of the internet in as far as the uh as the Torah World goes there was a whole uh sifa whole gathering in New York a few weeks ago so we're not recommending that people use the internet but people do use the internet we are using the internet now right so so apparently we feel that for the right purpose and the right time in the right place with the right safeguards that that it can be done uh okay so having said that let's move to our our first question which is what is our first question about about using buying and selling or e-commerce on Shabbos now that this is uh something many people are involved in they have what they have a they have a website they sell uh they sell products so they sell services on their site and they want to know how to how to deal with that on Shabbos oh there are there are variety of opinions among contemporary hostgans as a relatively new question which is come up over the last few years um I also the other person has to ask their own whereby but I think at least the discussion that we can have and will allow a person to ask an intelligent question a question based on knowledge of the other side of the of the issues I just wanna I just want to mention I forgot to say that we're hoping that you will chat with us uh you can see the big chat box on your screen and you type in at the bottom of the of that in that box and uh we would be more than happy to take any questions or comments um so good so this this internet question sending things buying things up with internet again as you said it's becoming more and more prevalent more and more calmness is moving to the web and and um we have we had this problem that um is not meant to do business um obviously a person's not going to be actually sitting and typing so the question is can a person set up a system before Shabbos or before he answers which is going to allow a sale to take place on Shabbos or a repurchase to take away sound shutters awesome let's address that why can't he type on on just as you know just to bring that pointer why can't he type on on Jarvis well there are a number of issues involved um the the generally um as an issue of using things which work electronically there's a discussion in the post game whether that's a that's a terrorist creating a spark that's uh right so it's completing a circuit it right right these are the and plus if a person's typing on a computer where images are displayed on the screen there's also a question of of writing which again debatable is certain is that a tourist serves that's a rabbinicus because the writing does not last but so you know there are certainly various uh various um at the very least okay most people will understand that they're not going to to use a computer or a phone and shop and again a personal cancer is so you know forgetting about the computer if a person's buying and selling there's also another Shabbos activity um again there's a discussion whether that's forbidden from the Tariff I've been from the robot on something that simply Postman would think it's not one of the 39 more office so it should be forbidden that only rabbinically however the rambunny writes that there's a midsummilator there's a terrible obligation to rest on Chambers and doing businesses uh is the opposite of resting and therefore he feels that there's a terror prohibitions of two business sanctions right he says it can't be that it's only rabbinically prohibited so if you can spend the whole day in uh in your store right and not have anything to do with Shabbos and just buy and sell and buy and sell and that would only the tutorial be okay with that right right exactly exactly so so a person can't do that on sharpness the question is can a person um just set this up before Shabbos which is um there are a lot of people who buy things in auctions on eBay and other sites sometimes the ocean send on Shabbos so I'm going to purchase something so I'm gonna I'm gonna place the bids on Tuesday um if I've been to the winning bid then the auction is going to end on Shabbos that uh that's when the actual um I'm actually going to be buying the object or if I'm sending the objects on eBay if I'm selling it on auction I can touch the magnification but I'm selling it buy it now that you can buy it whenever you want so I have this thing up on the site and non-juk and I will access the site in Shabbos and we'll purchase something and travels so so so let's uh let's go through some of the technical things that you mentioned so eBay so you you uh you you could buy either be uh you could come on eBay as a buyer or seller so let's focus on uh let's say what selling selling stuff okay let's start with selling so he puts up something for for auction right and somebody could come and make a bid and and it could if he has a uh he sets a certain amount of days for the bidding so he could let's say it could be three days so from Monday to to Thursday so then it has nothing to do with Shoppers that's fine but if he sets uh an auction for seven days from Wednesday till the next Tuesday so then it's going to go through Shoppers and and so possibly somebody could buy it on jobs right so I think what's even what's even more problematic is that most men most of these things there's also an option to buy the thing to buy it now so if they buy now at a certain set price right so he's on the auction is the people didn't whoever gets the highest bid will be the winner at the end but you can buy it now on on and someone could end up buying a job that's okay that's right so it's it's a new technology when it comes to Allah right to think about what uh what what's a parallel uh kind of situation has already been discussed in the in in the literature to try and developer and and apply it to Monday Monday issues this idea of selling something from afar and setting it up before beforehand doing weekday that someone should make a purchase the the as the kinds of scenario which is similar to is the person as a vending machine personal as a vending machine so he puts uh he puts his chocolate bars in the vending machine on Tuesday and then again it's it's there and anyone who wants they can come and make a purchase again the launcher could come on Shabbos put his money in and buy the chocolate bar so this is a this is a question before before the before the invention of computers this question a similar question already a rose which is discussed in Little Skin with vending machines and there was some discussion there are again there are some variety of opinion um the the the the safer the choice of the mental so his position which I think is widely held his position is that the person is allowed to sell or she was allowed to own a vending machine and allowed to put products in machine even though somebody might purchased on travels he has three conditions the first thing he says is that it has to it can't be on your property because then people are coming in says that's like you you have a store people are coming into your store so then he doesn't like but most funny issues I'm not a new property you put them out um you put them somewhere else somewhere else right so um so um then he then he says that that's that's the issue that you're having this object which you're selling to this person you have the chocolate bar and and on Shabbos it starts if he was on the shelves he's buying it and eating it so it becomes his but there's nothing to do that so so his suggestion for that is transferring ownership right his suggestion for that is the transfer ownership before Shabbos yeah on Friday you should get up and you should say that all these chocolate bars um should already belong to those people who are potentially going to buy it which is uh someone's unusual because we don't belong to the person who actually buys it it's going right to actually price it right it sounds unusual because we don't know who that person is we're not so there is there is such precedent for such things that I love her that we can say that they're interactively when the person makes the purchase some shelves on Friday okay then the problem is that this person puts money and you can't require the money so he says that his third condition is there the person should assure that intent that when the money comes into his machine that he does not his vending machine that he does not want to acquire minutes until social office is finished so those are that those are his um his three conditions for Jews okay so to apply it to the internet um again the the thing can be in your in your on your on your property well this is in in cyberspace this is not uh this office this buying and something is not taking place in any physical properties so that's not an issue um you can't um you can't actually transfer the ownership to him um well you can say so you can say beforehand say beforehands right I want this object to be on by whoever ends up buying it right okay usually that's also not an issue right that's right right so that that person can do you can do right or um or a person can one simple way to do it is that uh by the vending machine when a person puts his money in the exploits they get us chopped up all right away when a person buys something on the Internet he understands that it's not going to be shipped immediately it might be shipped the next day a person can even though the person's putting in the bins the the seller the Jewish server can um you know not have in mind to uh to to sell anything or private anything until the next day possibly um the the the the the the problem which is the most difficult one to get around is the third and last problem which is the money the money the launcher pays you so larger pays you so well you know by the vending machine you can say I don't know I don't want to acquire it right but if he's if he but by on computers on the internet when he pays you he doesn't actually pay you with physical coins that you can say I don't want to acquire these coins it pays you by sending money to your bank accounts and and that that transfer happens so then it goes into your possession goes into you so it does it does you do acquire right away let's see Michael has a point here I think we're going to get to this eBay selling perspective bidders and buyers have discretion to better buy you're not forcing them to bid them and okay that's true and it's not forcing them to have discretion but Robert Frankel's saying that there's a problem that they're paying you and you're acquiring money on Chavez right which I always thought was interesting to think of it like that because money they don't really pay you uh you could look into the flip side couldn't you that it's not really money it's just ones and zeros in some banks uh the computer system is that really money there's no money anymore it's all an agreed upon you know uh a convention that this will consider this money in ancient times they had gold coins which actually were worth their weight in gold and that's that's been a long time since then almost the dollar bill is a piece of paper it's about two cents I mean you know there's not really money easy money yeah almost like that so I see okay you know all money especially with the value of the dollar nowadays but certainly theoretical right maybe we'd rather have English pounds okay so I hear your point you're saying that all money is kind of is kind of theoretical uh because it's not the actual value we're not I'm not giving you if I give you a dollar I'm not giving you the value of that dollar it really doesn't have the value it hasn't agreed upon purchasing its power so the same thing if I transfer money into your into your bank so then that has a degree upon purchasing value so therefore it's money okay fair enough and the question has a good question he says if that's true then when my mutual fund reinvests my dividends on my behalf of champ is why isn't that a problem um that's a very good that's a very good question um if my when my Mutual is it a problem with my when my mutual fund reinvests dividends on my behalf on Shabbos okay that's not such a problem nowadays because nobody the the the market the markets are closed on jobs you could ask that question on the active or or and then we can refer to Ramos's response about interest payments exactly uh on on YouTube um it's not right he does he discusses that which is getting a little bit off topic Zev says actually with a bank account the bank has the money so and just owes it to you I don't know if that's if that's the bank really doesn't have enough money to physical cash to cover all their deposits they have um credit you know or whatever it is if everybody would come and make a run on the banks there wouldn't be enough money to go around printed money to go around for everybody so we have to come on to wherever Franco is saying I mean again all money's like that the developing is that it's worth two cents the government owes you thought to be able to look at it that way and we don't need to see if you have money in your bank account we look at it okay fair enough all right I can accept that okay so let's go back to the problem right so this is the most positive you're getting paid on on Shabbos and the money's going into your account right so so the truth is that really depends how the person pays you um whether that transfer of money takes place in Shoppers or not and if the person plays with a credit cards so the majority of most credit cards um the banks that the most credit cards they do not process over the weekends they do not process it on Shabbos or Sunday they allow the process on business days on Monday so even if the person pays you with this credit cards then money will not actually get transferred to your account so Monday morning so um this is not always true it does to some extent depend on the credit card but most credit cards are like that so but so if president's paying with a credit card the concern is mitigated um by and large there's no transform Shadows so um you know that there was when when the internet was issued when the internet questions originally came out that was uh that was the feeling that that would be the the reason to be lenient the the problem the problem is that as time develops so there are other other methods of Pavements which um which developed on the internet itself which became very popular and most common ways of pain is like paying through PayPal through PayPal a person has it set up that when I have an auction when I when I buy something of an auction on eBay so then if I press the paper when I pay when I pay with PayPal then the money can get transferred does the money get transferred right away or does it not get transferred right away and that also depends not okay that depends on how you set up your PayPal accounts um if your PayPal account has has has PayPal fund has PayPal funds in it right you already have money there in their PayPal in there and then they will transfer that money right away and that that if I if I if I have funds in my PayPal accounts and I buy something from which you're selling on auction then PayPal will transfer the money to you to at least to the extent that if you want to use that money on a different side of chicks PayPal you would be able to do that right so it's considered to be so PayPal is its own monetary system right I mean there is billions of dollars and PayPal PayPal PayPal has billions sitting in its accounts right so it's it's it's it's a monetary system right probably greater than the monetary system of many countries probably Greece yeah yeah in Greece right so uh so it's uh so so yes so the money conceivably could get transferred right away and so you're getting you're acquiring money on jobs right so this is a problem this is uh again different posts can feel differently about this does not uh but this is this is an issue which um which certainly could which certainly be a number of posts can feel this is really a problem and therefore they they feel that a person should not do that should not sell something or share this um if there's a possibility of the person will pay your job is um how can you avoid getting paid with PayPal on travel right so it depends if a person is selling something on their own slides then they have much more leeway if I set up my own slides I set up my own site that means I have some work developers setting up a site for me so the difficulty is that if it doesn't sell something on eBay or on Amazon or any of the other sites with the hosting sites so the person is bound by their rules and they don't necessarily have that wait a second so if he has his own site he can set it up that he doesn't he can set it up he he can say that he doesn't take PayPal on childish he doesn't do Supply it doesn't sound anything he doesn't sell anything at all right I mean you can come to the Saints if you can look around on the ground maybe you can you can uh you can you can you can you can um you can say that you want to buy something after shopping okay but you either one where you want to actually go through the transaction right okay there are some there are some uh famous um Jewish owned sites I like that that close on on Shabbos to order they don't sell on jobs right right I've not actually gone on to see but that's what I've heard that they're closed on on childish um but but you know there are many that are open you know again as I said there are there is discussion on contemporary posting I'm sure that every person has stash Island um um but uh but that certainly a person has their own side is certainly a much more flexibility so the problem you're seeing if they want to sell on on uh on eBay right I can't tell eBay don't don't take PayPal on jobs yeah it's right a person there are settings that are present cells right on Amazon eBay I think believe there are settings a person goes on vacation let's say in the summer and doesn't want to sell anything there are there are there are but um they're not it's not it's not an easy thing to do every week um plus my I'm not experts on these things but my understanding is present sales on Amazon so the person has a ranking of um of uh in terms of popular years once he takes a once he takes a break so then he loses he'll lose out there and if he has a low ranking then we'll see and see a site even though it exists so um it's a challenge it's a challenge right so we don't have an easy answer okay that's like some of the comments um what about yantev okay that's that's a uh yeah it's a problem because uh yomptuf comes out on weekdays many times and the credit cards are processed and the things that really is um that's the bigger problems it's a bigger problem it's a bigger problems because I should obviously with credit cards as I said um there might not be such an issue but I mean obviously it will be an issue I think Michael says I think the claw is that a Jew doesn't want to receive money on Shabbos as long as the payer has a discretion to transfer those money to him before or after Shabbos yeah I I think like you mentioned there are opinions that that say that right that is you didn't force the buyers to buy from you on on on on job is so the fact that they pay you is uh something that you set up from before Shabbos it's like setting up a a uh a what's the classic case of setting up something from before shop it's that continues like travel scandals your last job is okay a lot of your shopping you didn't do anything on jobs that's what Michael is saying the council arguments is that that's how you open the physical bricks and mortar store so that's how you open the store and I said I'm going to open the stone shot this and anyone who wants to can come in and take things and put money down I trust people who live in a let's see live in a trusty Place anyone who wants to juice launcher I mean not juice not that advantages but not just they can just come into my store they'll put money in my till they'll walk through the objects I think we would have a problem with that so that's um a person's having a store open seven days a week and making money some days a week plus it's not going to make money and shows so um and the internet is is allowing you to be open uh it's only seven days a week right right one thing um uh that we want to say is that the it also depends a little bit what you're selling so if you're selling um uh something that's uh generic it could be for anybody a telephone calling cards or something so you don't have to suspect that that particularly Jews are going to come to your site but if you're selling Jewish related items so there's more of a reason that you not only do you have to worry about the money that you're getting into your account you have to be concerned that you're trying to attract Jewish customers and they're going to come to your side and buy and you're causing them to transgress that's a big problem depending on what you're uh what depending on what you're selling um those are closing shop I still have a problem with you in a different time zone buys on his office okay that's a very good point that Zeb is making how do you judge what where what job is Shabbos goes from Thursday till Sunday in different parts of the world meaning right because of the international because of the Halal Dateline so uh from from Thursday night it's a really sharpest in some places well this room is buying something in a different time zone and the place where the gym is the travels than that was a problem but when I saw things on the internet um in general if I'm not sending something which is particularly uh kids to all Jewish people um I'm staying towards lounges if the lounge is buying it in a place where in his time zone the child is a mom she doesn't have the gift shops he's not meant to keep Shabbos so therefore if in my timezone on the seller if my time zone is not Shabbos so I'm about to sell because the nice times on this Friday he the non-job and it is time so it shows but he's allowed to buy he's allowed to buy it because he's allowed to buy in shelves so then then we're fine there is this there if the if the person that I'm sending to is the Jew then that would be a problem if I knew that then that would be a problem in general but assume that if I don't know anything that a person is buying as soon as the job on the majority of people in the world was okay so we can judge based on where the person who is doing the selling in other words if I'm a habit if I have a site and then let's say I want to just close down my side for Shabbos what's the Shabbos is when wherever I am so let's say my let's say um I'm I my site is hosted in the United States and I live in the United States then I go for a Shabbos I go to Israel so the the then I have to close it down according to where I am at that point right I have different hours and so just because my site is hosted in New York right but it follows where I the owner of the business is that that would make sense it's not really located anywhere it's just uh just this you know they're out there but um and just moving on yeah we've been discussing the seller so the seller has this problem that people who pay might pay and the money might get transferred right away if a person is a buyer so then a person has more options if I'm a buyer so um generally I'm not going to buy I'm not going to buy something in Shabbos and the the the the the the case where the where this question question arises if I'm building something in an auction on the auction and some Shabbos I'm Jewish I'm bidding on an object in the and the ocean is going to end on sharpness so then effectively I'm going to buy it on channels so um again um you know this is so this is a little different than vending machine the vending machine I'm the seller the Jews the seller the buyer is not Jewish over here we're talking about the other way around the seller is not Jewish but me the buyer I'm Jewish and uh so that that also is potentially an issue um you know again one way around it is not to build on on items where the ocean inside service you don't you know the emotions which they're available but let's say there's a particular object I want to buy and the ocean and some Shadows so to a certain extent uh it's a it's a it's a the issue again is going to be how am I going to pay if I have money in my PayPal accounts and and the and I've instructed to concluded to pay with PayPal so that I'm buying the objects if I win the object if I win the auction on Shabbos then then automatically money's gonna be transferred online accounts but it never works automatically you always have to go I think and do do the process of actually paying for it I don't think you can tell the computer if you put an auction on eBay that ends on Chavez you still have to go and pay for it you won't it won't go automatically you don't know about eBay tonight I'm not sure I think that that's that's the way it works so then then the person's then then so then let's assume that way that's something you know so so you have to you have to actually finalize the deal right so I'm gonna so I'm gonna buy the objects maybe somebody who's uh listening can tell us I'm going to finalize I'm gonna bid for this auction it's going to finish on Shabbos but I'm not going to pay till Sunday so really on Travis I'm not doing anything what I've done is commit myself to buying this object um but um I'm not really there's no real transport so I pay you which is on Sunday um is there anything wrong with committing to buy something at Shabbos again I didn't really do anything in Javas on on Tuesday I set up then on channels I'm going to commit myself to buying and Tuesday set up that if I if I'm the highest bidder I'm going to commit right but you know that's not such a such a serious uh issue again I'm not doing anything in jobs and even when I commit there is really is no transfer I could slow back out in my I might uh if I back out how do you back out just don't don't give them your credit cards and you might uh you may not like eBay please right right but ultimately they can't force me to buy it they might uh they might uh you know flag your account I have no idea again I don't know exactly how it works but um I don't think they can force you to pay but they can probably throw you off on eBay maybe something but um so it's not um so you haven't really done anything right so you so you're what you're saying is it's okay to buy to to put a bid on something that ends on on childhood I wonder if that's the best thing to do even if it's okay yeah you may be thinking about it all Shabbos you know it might be the highest paid insurance right it's something that's not not such a clue open and Shop thing that I think Boston shouldn't preferably avoid it but to avoid it but there are cases where um if it's necessary to go to bed so at the very least the person should make sure that doesn't know that they're not there's no transfer money taking place until I have the shuttle so they when they organize it to happen okay these are a lot of questions over here that uh that are relevant that are that are coming up let's see if we have any other comments here we talked about the the interest issue the interest on on yantiff yeah right so we want to go back to that by the bank credits your account with interest on a weekday that happens to be a yantiff so if it's a if it's a two-digitive ramosha has it that has a discussion that that's okay am I right because because of various time differences when when they credit their 24 hours it's not like our their 24 hours from 12 to 12. and our young tip is from it's it's from Sundown to to uh to sundown so the times are not exactly there are the same so it's okay but if it's a three-day yumptive he has more of a problem with that I mean like a Shabbos and then the two-day yamta that's an issue it is an issue that's an issue okay um so let's let's uh let's see here's Michael has another comment for various reasons I avoid auctions which end on Shabbos one reason as you noted is that I would be thinking about it right I think that's a big problem I think the person who bid on something that Enzo Chavez something that he really wants would be wondering am I am I uh am I you know I was high enough with ipid maybe I didn't bid high enough maybe there's other people you know if it's a bit that some people um may just didn't just forget about it and they won't remember until they get the email saying that they won I mean there's all different types of people somebody writes right the person has to know where where he's at another is that it's often hard to win an auction unless one Biz literally within the last minute okay that's a practical advice for eBay users well there are ways to set it up beforehand that little bit for you in the last minutes you know okay right okay um okay so maybe we'll move on to we we spent a lot of time on that topic because we could really probably continue to speak about it for a long time uh with this something that that that's coming up soon in in the period of time before the ninth above which we generally call the three weeks when we don't listen to uh to music Jews don't listen to music and commemoration of the destruction of the Temple temples right the morning for the temples um and we don't listen to music that has musical instruments but there's been a great surge in in music called acapella which is music without any instruments and uh and so let's see if that's let's discuss that Robert Frankel is that is that permitted is there any are there any issues with that listening to that during the three weeks that relates very much so computer issues um because there are different cut that there are two different types of acapella music one kind of acapella music as is just people um without any without any use of any computers or anything they're just um they're just using their voices and harmonizing harmonizing in such a way that uh that uh without without any instruments it still sounds nice and people like people like listening to it so that um that um that that's um a person can a person does the holotic issue and then there's also the philosophical issue you know is that is that a good way of spending uh of uh of uh of expressing on this morning over the temple to listen to this and even assuming that's a lot to be permissible so that's uh that's Ash graphic question which a person has to think about himself as well babe whether whether it's something that they should be doing but setting aside setting aside that the question of whether it's appropriate in terms of the morning just dialogically if it's just people using their voice so perhaps that's not that might not be such a logic problem but the reason why acapella music is is problematic is that usually it's not like that usually what happens is that people use their voice and then they manipulate it with computers to um you know it's they want they want and that kind of music they want someone to sound like an instrument or people don't really sound like drums so the or guitars or so so what they do is they have the person and then they they they they can raise the pitch and their tone and and the other place using computers to make it sound more like an instrument so ultimately what they're doing then is that their computer is the musical instrument the computer is generating this music this it's true that the computer is manipulating the sounds of the human voice but it is manipulating in such a way that it makes a sound musical it makes it sound like just like a you know just like a piano is uh is a mechanical thing which makes music so this is the computer thing which makes a music you took the person's voice and you made and you digitally mastered it into something that sounds like an instrument right so that's a problem because it really is it does not sound it really is like an instrument yeah right they've changed it to the extent that this is not this does not sound like the original sound coming out of the person's mouth um so then um so how would a person know which what acapella is what you go into the people who buy acapella they go to the store we're gonna have to have a hipster a certification on acapella I think we can find new new and newer Avenues okay we like to do things like that we get extra on ovens and we once did Banks we gave we gave we certified banks that they weren't uh they had no in ribose issues interest issues so maybe we should look at that but uh but but seriously I don't know how a person would know which which acapella was is true acapella for example plus there were false in the rights and his children he says that even regular acapella which is not computer computer you know manipulators it's just a person singing which person's allowed to listen to to the human voice during the three weeks He suggests that maybe that's true if I'm if I'm if I'm in the place in the hall where the person is is singing I'm allowed to listen to it I'm just hearing a voice but once it's put onto a CD it's more listening to her CD so I'm listening to the CD itself is the instrument it's like an instrument it's not it's not I'm not listening anymore moves into something which is generating a sound so um so here's a problem with that as well so it's not a simple thing so he would know he would not allow anything that is again there are more people are more lenients but at the very least I think person has to really know that what they're listening to is the authentic human the identity human voice of the way it sounded to when the person sang and that just uh computer manipulated which as he said is going to be hard to find out R asks aren't you not supposed to sing during the week during the three weeks um that sounds not meant to um meant to play music listen to music uh vocal just vocal singing that's uh that's not how I think it could have been um again nothing can discuss what's uh what's about what's uh conceptually you know or philosophically what's what's uh what's appropriate in terms of um the just the human voice itself wasn't allowed to uh to sing well she says is it permitted to use someone's credit card and pay the interest charges is it considered rubies that's a that's a whole discussion and it's a problem in and of itself people do this and they don't realize you know they just they just figure that's you know I'm just I'm taking somebody else's credit cards um they will not paying the bank and not paying the interest I'm just because I don't want him to be the interest but what he's gonna lose so I'm just making it it doesn't lose I'm not giving him anything but I think he's not like that empathically it's his credit cards and um and it's your pain interest on it so yeah it's basically the answer is it's not permanent I don't know anybody this is pretty cut and dry right it's not permanent a lot of Revenue on yours right that's right and it's a common it's common misconception I think so I'm happy that it was brought up it doesn't should not do that right um let's see one other topic we we said we would uh oh one second one more thing is there a difference between live music and recorded music with regards to the three weeks uh so emotion has the children the question is again music it puzzles don't want to listen to music so it's live music certainly works that's certainly worse it has a trip about Tate's music and he says that a person should not listen to that either he says that's certainly the custom is not right not to listen to uh sorry that's important um one issue we we're going to get to was uh destroying media that have Torah verses on them uh destroying CD-ROMs or DVDs or computer files that contain Torah or the name of Hashem and so on um you know we wanted to address that right so so we get to the computer media you know but in the Oaks in the old needs just written written and written down um there are there are there are two scenarios one is where does Tober written a piece of paper and one is when there's one of hashem's names so when hashem's name is written on this paper that's uh that's uh that's a more serious um but they should both go machines but the regular server which goes and Shameless maybe that's a Remick the the raising the name of Hashem will cause the name Hashem to be raised that's really a terror appropriation so shame is they should put it usually uh synagogues or shoes have a place that you can put these papers there and then they bury them right right so if it has them instead of just throwing it out right so either way it should be done but especially if it has an English version that's especially that's that's mostly there so just bring out the computers so the person has something on a disk so it's not really something which is visible you can't see any any words or whatever it's um so it's it's not it's not really um quite as problematic um if it really has the name of Hashem only the zombie actually is has spoken out of the name I'll show them I think there's necessarily some more take that somewhere more so that's shame if Hashem in inside the computer is just you know just ones and zeros it's it's just right positive and negative um charges it really is not it's not hashem's name at all that's true that's true but that's really something which person something they could you could play I guess I should avoid doing that because I should avoid having the real name of Hashem or CG when you play it there are sample skin which say that playing it is is causing them Hashem to be said for nothing but there's nothing to do with that promotion says it's not true because it's being set by a computer not being set by a Jewish person but others are some Australian so I once I once saw a question I'm not sure if they meant it the serious question that if you a person is deafening uh from his iPad and then he drops it does he when he picks it up does he have to kiss his iPad his iPhone or iPad because uh it has now the name of Hashem so it became a sitter when I first saw that I thought the person was joking but then I thought I thought maybe he's not joking maybe he thinks that you really have to kiss your phone because it has it has uh now it turns into a sitter so you know there's also this if if it really has the names of Hashem which actually appear on the screen so then a person also has a question about moving on and and deleting that screen that the person scores and then you have a chance to go away which is also not such a simple issue although there are those opinions person should really try to avoid having the real names of Hashem on the computer screen or oh this on a computer screen even on a disk really I think I think it wasn't sure so I didn't realize that um but um yeah points out something about about e-ink only e-ink is a problem is actual letters are formed um where I understand the the eating that used in in these in the readers in the the e-readers it's different than the computer screen because the computer screen if you turn off the screen we turn off the screen right here the letters will disappear because they don't really exist anyway it's just constantly being refreshed but on a on a Nook if you would turn off the screen the letters remain there even if there's no electrical impulses because it actually is written there and um and so those are much bigger problems that's a bigger problem that's worse but even on a regular computer screen um to really put the real name of Hashem and erase it even though there are many because of this that it's just getting refreshed all the time it's not real writing you really shouldn't ever so those who are those who are creating these uh like uh consider or a tahillian or a homish they really should not put the the they should not spell out the name of God uh exactly right because they should they should alter it somewhere but the truth is it's not such a large concern because generally I think that people do that they write to you it's yours or hey slash I've seen I've seen I've seen it written now yeah it's not so good um assume that that's not the case though assuming that it doesn't have any name of Hashem there right Zev says computer screens keep refreshing when you shut the power the computer stops rewriting exactly that that's that's less of an issue but even so a person should really try ideally to avoid having the name of Hashem damage they have to erase um it's not a it's not an ideal thing to do although as you said if it happens a person will be allowed to do it um a person should try and avoid having development but other than that regulator which is usually the case regular turbo which um persons allowed to erase it on the computer um personally the person has a disk with regulatory and it's a person's allowed to you know right over it and again it has the name of Hashem on it so there's I mean what you were saying before is only if it has the actual name of Hashem you should be careful but if it's let's say versus without the name of Hashem right then if it's on a CD he could throw a CD in the garbage again if if it was really written there it's on a piece of paper the name yeah the name of Hashem would be in this well over here it's just in the computer media so the name of Hashem the person has to be someone okay but even though again this is not an issue from the turbo over here they can ask something it's not really written but still you know I think once you would have to try and avoid that ideally drive you know you know if it's not you know for no reason the person should try to avoid but uh if it's just a regular terrible person can can discard them okay we're coming to the end of our session I want to thank everyone for joining if you have any last minute questions you can you can uh try to get them in uh we're here the last Wednesday of every month at this website which is learnkosher dot click webinar.com forward slash kosher and on by phone we are at 218-895-1203 passcode 2020 pound we have to keep that phone line available rather frankly for people who do not have internet access that's right we should not assume that everybody has internet access we don't want to encourage everyone to necessarily have it and we therefore we keep we keep it available by by telephone um uh this this class and all our other classes are archived at kosherclasses.org k-o-s-h-e-r-c-l-a-s-s-e-s dot org and you can go over there and and find the class if you want you can sign up for for our alerts at star-k.org and you'll be informed when we're having classes and what the topic is there are some times when the class may be canceled for a reason although most of the time it's it's on but you want to be alerted and be reminded you can sign up for our alerts uh so if they don't last minute questions we'll thank everybody for coming and I want to thank you Robert Frankel for joining us a very I thought it was very good and I'm sure there was uh it was um it was it is a very important topics and the topics that keep changing you know there's new things that come up I'll have to come back yeah we'll have to keep every every year there's new there's new challenges you know there there are new ways of doing things and and uh um I just heard that on in in various hotels it's already a problem that they are controlled by the air conditioning and heating is controlled by uh by computer so when you go into the room the computer returns that knows the senses that you're there and it turns on the air conditioning when you leave it turns it off that's really a problem in some places but I understand that the code is going to be requiring that you're going to need the stocking to give shares hotels as well right we may need this arcade if you actually to uh to the Hiltons that's right in the Marriotts and oh somebody should give a half I mean these are the real challenges about that and so that's a new that's a new uh new issue um so a person has to be constantly learning and constantly being aware you can't go around just assuming that well everything you know was okay last year I came here last year and it was okay so they're there for this year it's okay too you have to constantly be be looking into the issues and And discussing and and coming to the Starkey webinars to learn about all these issues and uh more there's lots of other places you can go to as well um there's so much total available for people now it's incredible just have to seek it out uh thanks again for joining us and have a have a wonderful day