05-28-2014 STAR-K's webinar on The Glatt Kosher Meat Industry

hello and welcome to star k's monthly webinar we're here in the the headquarters in baltimore maryland we're here today with rabbit holland welcome rabbi holland thank you robert goldberg and i'm rabbit s goldberg and we are glad that you joined us this webinar is held the last wednesday of every month at 12 noon at uh the url learn kosher.clickweinar.com/cosher clickwebinar.com/cosher the phone number in case there's any trouble uh hearing us on through the web is 2188951203 and it is passcode 2020 pound um we are working on a new solution for our webinar and if you uh notice today that there's some uh cutout on your screen so just give us a couple of seconds hang in there and we'll get right back up with the uh with the program if you have any questions on kosher throughout the year we are here to answer your questions at or [email protected] the previous webinars are archived at kosherclasses.org that's our website you can find um many dozens of webinars there and uh we hope that you will access them and enjoy them so rabbi holland today we're going to talk about meat my favorite topic okay uh we're a little late for the uh memorial day cookouts but um so the good news is even though rabbi goldberg we missed memorial day but uh certainly every shabas uh one can fulfill a mitzvah of uh on shabas by eating meat if you happen to like meat according to some opinions it's maybe more serious than that and of course we have the upcoming holiday of shv when there's a the general y obligations of which would add another mitzvah that we could do with eating meat so uh maybe we're timely even though we missed memorial day today's topic is i just want to mention rabbi holl we have moderated chat today so if you chat with us and you don't see your comment come on the screen we can't see it and uh we just it'll be a little bit uh slower to get to your comments today because of the the the the amount of of of information we want to give over so uh we're going to limit the chats today but if you have a question you're welcome to put it up there go ahead and certainly if we don't get to your questions today uh all you have to do is you could send me an email to rabbi hollandstar-k.org holland is spelled just like the country and i'll be happy to answer your questions just as soon as i can the topic today is the american glaucoma meat supply um long ago actually not that long ago it was common that every town had a had its own which meant that it had a or two or three or many and that that was overseen by the local rabonim everybody knew who the people who were responsible both for the actual and who were responsible for setting those standards there were community customs uh that were enforced in fact uh the position of uh was a a hallowed position the in the beginning of urea uh talks about the the um talks about the requirements for a it's a very significant position uh in our world uh by now there's a tak has to have permission to she we call it a cabola uh in each community the rabbis have the right to permit or not to permit uh individuals from they have the right to give exclusivity to a specific person or people uh to uh fulfill the mitzvah of for the community in order to maintain standards uh the is in a position of great responsibility there are significant questions that arise in the preparation of kosher meat and uh we look for people who are both excellent at their craft and people who have impeccable credentials uh when it comes to their scrupulousness and mitzvos and their honesty the question that we have here is the question that we have here is what happened and why is this different than a than a regular product uh we know that the kosher food industry is gigantic especially in the united states uh there are many reliable certifications but meet everybody seems to be more sensitive uh everything is more sensitive first we have to understand how the industry changed over the last 20 or 30 years um with the advent of refrigeration it has become more cost effective to go to the animals to do to process them than to bring the animals to the cities in a time before refrigeration if they would go out to the fields or where large uh where large ranches are by the time the meat would get to uh the butchers uh it would not be edible anymore today with refrigeration and logistics and so on and so forth it makes more sense to do all the and the processing um at the facilities that are closer to the herds and that has changed dramatically the way works and no longer except in a few rare exceptions baltimore being one of them no longer are the local raburn available to go to those slaughterhouses on a regular basis to oversee uh the work of the and the character of those here in baltimore it's different because we do still have two active and who is the post for the star k visit those every single week and he is unique uh with regard to raban makirim not only that he's able to go to his on a regular basis and that are there every single week um in the community but he himself is a certified shodik along with other members of our staff who are indeed shabodkim or former shim bokeim who are now rub on him here at the star cake um the questions that we have to ask ourselves is the questions we have to ask ourselves when it comes to meat are many um where is our meat produced the plants we look around and we look around at our supermarket shelves and we see meat from all kinds of different uh factories with all kinds of different brands uh if we look carefully at that meat a lot of times there are many brands coming from the same plant uh you could see that from the usda you could see that from the usda numbers where you have the identical usda uh establishment mark on many different brands of meat consumer wants to know what's the difference between one brand and another what's the difference between the different uh hexure symbols that you find on the different on on the different uh brand who are the companies that are producing the meat who owns who who who is who is behind all these different brands one facility could have numerous companies and other facilities could have one company with many different brands who certifies the meat who are these people remember that when we are eating kosher food we we are relying on the certifications and we have to have as consumers confidence that those certifications are maintaining the standards that we require whether those standards be because of our community custom whether they they be because of the way that we personally feel about different issues or way whether they may be because the way our ram feel about those things um every hexure has the right and the responsibility to establish standards and requirements what are those requirements what does it mean when i see that on a hecta now now that is something that could be an issue with all kinds of products but with meat it's most serious um with regard to the way that the star approaches this we approach this in a very unique way many because of the sensitivity of meat do not accept meat from any other that would mean that most of the will we will will see how just how many there are that certify uh glacos meat really do not accept in their establishments in their factories anything but meat that they've certified themselves that allows them a level of comfort to know that they took care of the meat that there is it is the star case policy as directed by uh not to be so exclusive uh what we do uh is under rahan's direction any shita that would like to be accepted in the star case system is reviewed by rabbi haniman or one of the shita staff who reports to raban for a final decision and that means that we are in a unique position to talk about uh the topic at hand today which is what is going on in the glacos meat industry because we visit really virtually all those facilities uh with the notable exceptions but all those facilities uh that produce glacos meat so how many about that have we visited oh we're going to see in a second it's a very very large number and it's really uh far-flung all over the map one of the things that we one of the things that uh we have to explain before we go forward is that there's a dramatic difference between the certification of kosher meat and the certification of other factory produced commercial products many factory produced commercial products are things that basically that are basically a confirmation by the certification agency that the product is kosher that means we don't have to make it kosher we go and see that it's kosher we tell them which ingredients to use what kind of equipment to use and whether it requires full-time supervision or periodic supervision we are not making it kosher we're just making sure it doesn't become non-cooser every animal every single every animal as it walks around is not kosher it has what we call in uh the nomenclature of it is prohibited one may not eat from a living animal if the animal dies we can't eat from the animal as well the animal requires the mitzvah of to be performed every step of the way through that process there are challenges not the least of them that any plant is full of non-coosher meat because not every animal meets the kosher requirements so let's take a look at what's going on in our industry and see if we can open your eyes to what's going on and possibly educate you as to questions and issues you might want uh to know about so first of all let's start with the plant locations there are three kinds of plants there's a plant that does and that means that when the when when the animal leaves the plant it is not yet necessarily uh processed it's not necessarily koshered and travered that would be the de vaining or porging and soak and salt process that is required to move remove blood and other forbidden uh parts of the animal that we don't eat um then there's a packing process which always uh results in a packaged piece of meat with a hashture on it um in many locations today and a matter of fact i believe most of them theita and the packaging is done in the exact same plant often by the same company but usually even in the exact same facility and that's what we call today the phenomenon of boxed beef no longer are hanging sides of beef coming from the schlack house to the butcher shop where the butcher will casher and traver the beef traver and caser now we are looking at now we are looking at uh certified meat coming into a facility and the local supervisions are just checking the heaft to make sure it's a hefture that they rely on then there's further processing that's the third kind of uh plant that you have where you have seasoning cooking pickling and so on and so forth this is where your corn beef your hot dogs and so on and so forth are made where are the plants the the glacial meat supply in the united states is basically supplied from three loces united states and a little bit from canada mexico and uruguay the reason for the uh import of meat from mexico and uruguay is has to do with price and use the meat in south america is much cheaper it is of uh a different quality than united states beef it's generally mostly grass-fed with very little if any grain finishing the grain is what gives the fat to the animal that makes it a high grade of meat it's what fat is what gives the flavor but at the same time the use of that meat uh sometimes is very useful to have lower quality meat for things where there's grinding and cooking involved because the quality of the meat doesn't matter common plant location issues when a plant is located in a specific area it can create problems or challenges that have to be addressed with regard to kashas the travel time how long does it take to get there will the shan be able to sleep uh before the what are the requirements most most certifications have specific requirements as to how the shaft travel when they travel how much they have to sleep and and and the other kosher staff because everybody has to be on the sharp in order to work in a in a in a kosher meat plant um food and lodging how are they taken care of again if they if their living their living conditions definitely will directly affect the quality of their work and the look carefully or most of the look carefully at the way the shaft are treated some places provide all food and lodging uh for the um cooks and housekeepers and so andresses and so on and so forth and uh they can focus on the davining and on their learning and on their work other places it's a more of a challenge um and each place how they treat the sham with regard to travel and food and lodging it really is something that um the uh could and should be interested in and general are interested in uh to make sure that things are done in the proper way recognize these things all cost a tremendous amount of money to the companies because one can travel for uh uh more money on direct flights or closer flights and sometimes uh cheaper flights can be had by traveling to farther away airports or having numerous stops and those things can be uh can can create challenges weekends can happen every single day of the week if as you see the maps that we will uh be showing soon you will see that uh the location of those plants um sometimes makes it difficult to return for shabas and in fact in some areas the shim and staff spend months uh at the uh what are the accommodations h how what kind of shabas are we giving these people is it something that befits the people who are entrusted uh with the aodesh of our kosher minimum uh of course ding with a minion is a a very important thing are are we affording our staff to d with minimum and how how often often is early in the morning is it possible for them to dab it in the morning uh are they being forced to dab it in uh short breaks by themselves uh how often does that happen those are things all things that we want to look at very carefully what happens when flights are missed in weather when the plant is short staffed what are the requirements let's say a plant needs 10 people to operate what happens when only five come what are the what what are the requirements those are all things that the plant location uh that plant location directly affects plants producing for the us market in the usa and canada we have 13 facilities at last count that are producing beef six that are producing ve seven that are producing lamb eight that are producing poultry in mexico has three beef facilities and uruguay has four beef facilities that are bringing to the united states of course there are additional facilities in those countries um in the case of mexico that supply the local mexican jewish community which is an incredible one and in uruguay there are many more plants that are actually supplying eratis uh israel is not uh a very large beef producing country and uruguay for many years has been a primary source uh for uh kosher beef for those uh for those places in in each one of these places a lot has to be looked at and addressed before we go ahead and certify a plant how the beef are raised who owns the beef can be an issue um what traos can develop in the usa and canada we have issues uh they're common issues from the times of the vishonimum are discussed issues of surface or rerin adhesions that are on lungs we also look at the second stomach uh the basicos or the honeycomb uh for things that the animal may have eaten that can perforate the stomach um ve uh is ve are um there's a lot of discussion about ve today most of the ve uh is eats a little bit of grain and is a little bit healthier and groupoused so some of the issues of the cautious issues that have developed in the past are not as prevalent as beforehand here's a question about buffalo uh buffalo it's a very interesting question there's little to no buffalo at the moment in the united states uh but uh next month there is a starcake company that is starting a regular production of american buffalo or american bison and look for that on the market in mashem uh it'll work out um poultry has its own set of tra that we uh that we look for in the intestines and the the famous the legs uh in certain countries have issues some issues some countries have newcastle disease we don't have that in the united states uh but the newcastle disease affects the lungs of chickens uh and the turkeys in mexico uh of course the raising of those animals is different so they have different issues uh it's very interesting to note that some of the traers we struggle with here don't necessarily exist in mexico uh but they have different issues uh in uruguay also there some of the issues that we struggle with here uh they don't really have in uruguay but the issues that they have in uruguay are different in uruguay uh it's common uh to perforate the stomachs which is something which is mentioned in uh already in the tour in one of the hagaras in the tour this is mentioned in strafus that sometimes an animal will get bloat from eating wet grass they'll perforate the stomach to allow uh the builtup gases to escape so each country you got to know where you got to know what issues uh arise and how to deal with them let's take a look at the at the scope here here you have a map which um there are little push pins most of them are red there's a couple that are yellow because there isn't production of that plant at the moment uh most of them are red and as you can see i don't know if you could see my um my cursor but as you can see in the new york new jersey pennsylvania area you could see a lot of the um the poultry plants and uh some of our our localas in baltimore and some vehas and a lambkita too uh but there's really only to my knowledge one you know really regular beefita which is small uh that's in that's in this area but as you start looking through the united states we have uh you have in the midwest you have in toronto uh excuse me toronto there's some processing in montreal and some vit in montreal in minnesota there are three plants up in minnesota's far away last time i was in minnesota w with refinita it was minus 39 outside uh in nebraska uh we have uh fort worth texas uh there there are um uh in the uh in the west we have we have a california and we're looking at looking at pretty pretty extensive area to go look at and if anybody really wants to know what's going on it's very very difficult if possibly impossible to really review them that's something unique we have at the star ket because of the size of our uh the you the our end users the people who have a star kane and need to use meat we have the opportunity uh to visit and inspect many of these facilities to approve them for star use in addition to those that we certify um and there are probably 11 or 12 that we certify ourselves um but in addition to those that we certify that are um that are all over the place and we get to get a good sense of the significant of of what's going on and the significance and the breadth of this industry um farther a field there's a large source here is uruguay urguay is a 9-hour flight from florida and here there are four plants that are producing for the united states uh over here in uruguay and uh uruguay is a significant commitment to get to both financially and the time i actually visited uruguay this year and it was it took a whole week uh really to get around and see what needed to be seen um uh some of those in uruguay are very impressive because again they they're producing for they have large groups uh of shim uh the shaman lived together for months and months and months in beautiful homes they're very very well taken care of uh the places that i visited each had a bish the sham sat and learned together they dabbed together uh it really uh it really is an impressive setup down there uh and it was heartening to see uh and of course uh it it helped us feel confident about what's going on there uh mexico um the are uh you know for the most part a either a long drive or a flight uh from mexico city um and uh that from if you're flying from the new york area or from baltimore it could mean one or two stops at least sometimes three stops uh depending on scheduling uh to get there on time and uh they are smaller and the sham travel back and forth every week so they're going home for the weekends and when they are there though it's a small skeleton crew working again very impressive could could you address the safety in other words these plants that are importing to the united states a usda very interesting for me to be sold across state lines are imported into the united states it needs to be inspected by the usda the united states department of agriculture which has pretty high standards i will tell you that the foreign plants that i've been in are more careful than the united states plants because they reviewed by the united states rather rather than being um certified by the usda so the review is more strict than the because because the because so much of the economy of these countries especially a place like uruguay where their i believe their largest export product is beef their certification from the usda in each plant is the difference between the plant being open and the plant being closed hundreds of people go to work and millions and millions of dollars of livestock and equipment and real estate um could be lost and they're extremely careful about um about their about their cleanliness and health department issues and and the same is true even more so i i would say for mexico they're extremely careful uh to an extent that is it's quite impressive um moving right along moving right along packing oh there we go packing and processing packing and processing uh in usda type plants and this doesn't mean your local caterer but it means plants that are selling across state lines there are 24 different plants in the united states are doing packing repacking uh further processing and cooking and when when because those plants are inspected what happens is is those plants while they don't have to be inspected because they're selling a meat product across state lines and there are 24 such plants each one of those plants has its own unique set of issues and um many of them have more than one company working uh a lot of times you'll have companies renting space in those plants multiple aerum multiple companies kosher and non-coosher uh in those plants and that's always something to review to see how those things are dealt with uh what's really fascinating is that often you'll have different casering the same facility in between each other's runs um although i don't believe that uh this is a that that there is u you know blatantly non-cooser meat in the glad kosher meat supply at the same time at the same time for the hashim to feel comfortable that they are serving only their meat to their consumers because they don't accept other kinds of meat in most part i think there's only one or two the star is the no one of the notable exceptions that certify meat uh that accept other people's other other he meet so it's interesting you could have a all kosher facility that's constantly cautering uh their product and you could have a facility that's kosher and non-coosher that has a dedicated area uh for kosher and a separate area for non-cos where there's never casuring going on so it's important to just interrupt for one second for uh just some uh station identification we're here at the star offices if you're just joining us we're here listening to rabbat sui holland speak about the meat uh kosher meat glac kosher meet all across the world and uh we are here every last wednesday of the month at at 12:00 noon eastern and rabb holland can we address some of the questions that have come up in the meantime i i want to look i i want to look uh i want to look uh some of these questions and i'll answer them uh first of all um st are standards publicly available for kosher meat um i i can't speak to other hexarium standards but certainly uh starcase standards are are definitely uh something that we like to talk about uh most of our standards are written where where can a consumer i mean you're talking very detailed that's a very that's that is a that is that is a very good question um i don't know where consumers what kind of public things like that well some but some of those things are some of those things uh you know we definitely could talk about um uh somebody's i just want to just be very clear um we don't have a position the stark doesn't have a position on the quality of grass-fed beef versus grain fattened beef i only mentioned that usda grading grades grain fat and beef that's marbled uh at a higher grade and it receives more money in the market uh because it's it's valued uh in the marketplace i i'm not and we i'm not qualified to make a comment about healthc care issues or really taste i'm just talking about the realities of the market conditions um somebody asked here if we allow shabas of course we do not allow shabas the standard of in the language is a yurishim somebody who fears god publicly on shabas um it would not be acceptable um i do also uh want to mention uh someone asked why we don't find local sham who meet standards to eliminate the time travel the biggest challenge is is as i mentioned at the beginning of the uh session that there really uh the vast majority of is now happening far away from any uh local jewish community because of the economic realities of the beef industry questions to ask there are 27 different agencies at last count and i believe by between the time that i prepared this um powerpoint presentation and now there's i probably found in a couple of more 29 different agencies and primary source meat products that we find in the united states and i probably missed a few even when i say 29 the question to ask there are many questions to ask first of all who is the raka forita because there is no longer commonly within a community uh while at some at one point we're all very well worse than the laws of and the laws of uh the laws of nikur and etc it is actually today become extremely uncommon for rabbis to be um for rabbis to be wellversed in these areas in fact the smika the traditional smika no longer includes and while in some areas it still includes malika it really uh everybody seems to recognize that most people who took that included malika may never have even ever seen actual malika happen um so the raashita it's very critical to know who that is uh is that because there needs to be somebody who is knowledgeable usually and one of the notable exceptions is rahim and uh the the people who are the the postkim or the lead ra in's case he's both for the stark he's actively involved in all of our uh rab is an exception that he's a and a monak and he has done uh many he's been involved in the industry for many years and he's constantly uh in in slaughterhouses and and overseeing that but you needed to go regularly really to stay on top of what's happening in the industry so you want to know who that person is because it's always important you always want to know who you're relying on no different than our doctor lawyer accountant uh uh our our rabbis are professionals and we want to know who they are what their qualifications are uh who manages those meaning who runs them this is not like coca-cola or some other company where we're doing certifications for them on food where there there's no as i mentioned before there's nothing to be made kosher you just have to verify uh that it's still kosher here stuff needs to be made kosher and when you're making it kosher um there are tremendous losses and gains uh each time uh some companies thea is managed by the company uh every all the employees are staff members of the company and uh the certification is separate and distinct and some uh and this is a strong preference uh i think in our eyes is that the all the kosher staff are actually employees of the hashkah and they answer only to the hashkah and often there is no little or no contact between the company itself and those staff so for example if there's a trailer load that needs to be filled for efficiency uh at the end of the week of um nobody's going go tell the and the boat and the mashkim that they need another 10 kosher today or 20 kosher today in order to fill the fill fill the truck but you know that is a legitimate thing that can happen it's a fair concern for somebody's business uh but what it does is it creates a pressure uh that of course you know an excellent who is a neon he's somebody who is honest and so on and so forth we wouldn't uh want such a want such a thing um but again there's uh you know that's a question to ask who's directly in charge of does the accept other this is very critical because most don't accept others um it's something to talk about a little bit when we don't accept or when a when a certification agency doesn't accept another um you know that limits their you know that that really limits their uh ability to get meat and uh you know if there is a problem one week uh in one facility they may need to be lenient uh in order to get enough meat for their for their end users when a hexure uh can take from any facility if they approve it they can always take from the best uh that they find although it's obviously not the best thing for that because when you're taking uh meat from other you're not getting paid uh for the certification so there's two sides to it there is a benefit to to controlling all of your meat as well uh which is is that you're in complete control and you could feel more confident of the meat that you have possibly unless you're really able like the star is able to travel around and seek all the time what are the qualifications of shim um the qualifications for shim are many uh that that exist in the kosher meat industry uh certain groups require the shim to uh have never trimmed their beard or other minimum of communities um sometimes uh we require to be a and a bodic sometimes we don't require to be a and a bodhic um does he have to have a written cabala how many written cabalas does he need to have um are they are they people uh who are who are members of a specific community these are all good questions to ask because when the consumer knows the answer to that question the consumer can evaluate as to whether um they feel comfortable with that certainly rabanum can ask those questions and they can evaluate whether they feel comfortable with the requirements sometimes the requirements might be limiting with regard to the community to the point where you're only getting the best available in that community as opposed to available period stark requires sham to be approved by one of our staff under direction we require excellent shim who are um well known for their uh for not only their abilities as but well known uh with regard to their behavior in every way so how does how does one qualify as we said we're going we're going to touch on that can mean a lot of things um it most often means aassid uh aassid is usually somebody who uh has a beard that they that they never trimmed or in some cases no longer trim uh maybe some places will accept him if he uh used to trim his beard no longer trims his beard but he never shaved or maybe if he stopped shaving and then he grew his long beard some places require um a certain kind of hat to be worn some wear up hats some wear strip some people's wear spock some people's wear beaver hats some need to be a member of a certain community doesn't mean the same thing for everybody um i think in we say we that for us means that the pious and men of action who fulfilled the uh we accept them whether they belong to or not or not uh as long as they're true uh in the in in the biblical sense um uh what is the presence of the certification in the plant there sometimes can be many certifications in a plant some plants have five six seven uh certifications when i see that half show on a brand what does it mean do they have a representative there always uh do they do they do they visit periodically do they visit every week do they visit every month uh do they visit quarterly all those things exist uh there there are uh different standards for different what does it mean when they have a on that meat and uh i can only say for the star means that we have in addition to regular visitation we do have a representative uh uh at at every facility that we certify uh at least one representative um highlights of nikaing requirements so there are many many and we're going to talk about some challenges in the plants i think the next in the next slide there are many many areas where we can consider uh what the standards are for um how many knives does the have to bring how many how often is the knife checked what happens if there's a problem with the knife what's the procedure to make up sakala on it what's the customs of nicker uh for the communities many many different customs of nicker depending where you're from uh the star nicker uh approach uh is first of all the most well documented there's a nicker handbook that was actually drawn by refinan many years ago and a video showing refinan doing nicker we stick to that uh that is the that is the the baltimore custom and uh our standards are are very clear and pretty public you can actually watch our nicker video uh online on our video channels um every community has a different standard it's important to understand what their standard is capturing requirements uh capturing uh can how many mashkim do we require uh what kind of salt is used uh do you need separate kosher kaim uh for postita processing uh all of these things are the questions that people ask one of the most sensitive issues because it directly affects the success or failure of a meat operation is what are the glot or basio standards now let me explain for a minute that according to um the spardim uh they accept uh they accept a different standard uh than the ashkanazim uh as far as meat is concerned today that's irrelevant all meat that has safari certification uh that's commercially available is also acceptable for ashkanazim and in fact it's a higher standard because the spardim do not remove um what we call sirus or rein um until very recently until the 20th century mid 20th century uh kashit was followed and uh if there were adhesions in the lungs uh they were removed through a process called mishmash to a certain extent uh there was obviously a clear misora and how to do it from bodic to bodic and that is still done however glot is has today become the standard in the united states and while it's a new thing uh it does have a tremendous benefit because glatt is we're only taking off very small uh limited things off the lungs uh while it does not necessarily meet the standard for the spardin which is why you see basio meat which meets sphartic standards uh but glat is a higher standard of ashkanazi um meat uh cautious with regard to the traus of the lungs and that glot standard um what it does is it protects the consumers because uh we no longer are davening every morning with the shaman we no longer send our kids to school together with the shaft's children we no longer visit their homes we don't necessarily know uh who these people are and by setting a higher standard it protects us it makes it easier uh to feel comfortable uh about our meat supply um but what are those standards those standards are things that are very hard to define um and are those standards indeed uh glot standards are they really high standards or are they from different communities uh they could be much lower standards and coming from where we come from from our our the community that we're in who are we'd like to know if those standards match up with our standards b y as well particularly if you're a sari what does b y mean to some heim b means there were no shilas which is the star case standard for b y that there was no meaningful shila at all on the law other uh in an effort to supply communities especially because there's a demand for bf have broader definitions of bas and uh you know if a buyer buys it he may be buying something that would be glad according to another uh hure and it may not be worth the money to spend extra because you can get the same standard by buying a lot from a different extra it's important to know the answers to these questions i want to take a minute to look at your chat uh one city uh according to one of the chatters here said that they don't accept bison because of lack of a misura so i want to clarify um this topic a little bit there is no uh realic requirement for a misuru with regard to ruminants animals that chew their cud and have split hooves uh as the torah says uh for birds that birds require misor which ones are kosher which ones are not it goes bird by bird there are similar to fish uh for kosher animals however there is a there is a that i believe quotes and uh that because the world has gotten so much bigger and we found so many animals that we should only being animals that we have on um there are there's a discussion in the postkum whether we should follow this and there's a discussion in the post whether the bison is included uh in in the msar we have a regular cattle as it is um an animal that is related to the buffalo the european buffalo mentioned and it's a pretty big discussion in the post most of most of the american large certifications do accept bison as far as i know most of the american certifications do accept bison this is a pointed question yonkal is asking if the consumer should know the answers what are the answers where can i find it this is a very good question that yonkl is asking i i think that uh uh i i think the don is correct um other words we're asking a lot of questions but is the consumer supposed to call up his his you know the agencies and start asking them we do get a lot we get a lot of questions from consumers about this our effort we we really feel that uh and that's the reason why we're giving this webinar we feel that consumers should be asking this question these questions and consumers should be learning about it because the power of raising the standards of cash is really with the consumers and it's with their abunim with the consumers they want you know they we want them to be educated of course the best way to be educated is to learn but we do want you to ask those questions but so they find out they call up and they find out that there are two and at this time in an assaulting there's they not every person can understand what that means how good that is but gen but generally generally speaking of course no hexure is going to tell you that their hexure is not acceptable or doing it in an unreliable manner and it's hard for it really is hard for consumer to know those answers but at the same time it's something that we we encourage consumers to ask and discuss with people who they trust um we you know we do feel we do feel very very strongly that it's really up we feel it's really up to the consumer and we're uh as a unique amongst the cautious agencies that we're the only nonprofit cash agency that's dedicated uniquely to kosher that's why we we're so committed to investing in cautious education be it through the monthly uh starade kosher webinars or cautious currents or our hotline 4104844110 that answers over 100,000 consumer shas uh a year um we want you to ask those questions and we're happy to answer them to the best of our abilities um what's the difference between yeshiva and i i don't think that i don't think that we believe uh that these things mean anything if if you ask us i guess yeshiva means that the people who are doing the don't believe that they're or the company doesn't believe that they're um yeshivish means coming from the yeshiva in yish i doubt there are any yeshivas that she inside the yeshiva so it's not really it doesn't really mean anything i think the message they're trying to send is that these people are are are yeshiva educated people who are not which is a challenge a lot of the vast majority of in the united states has become quote unquote and our community and i'm i think it's clear that i'm don't belong to community um our community does not um is not very well represented amongst there's an effort to is that because the that there's not a two-way street in other words the will not accept yes but or or but the yeshiva if star k is one let's say will accept as we're talking so the standard is if if you're can get a job anyway the reason why there are so few um non-asidicas uh is because each community the vast majority of those agencies that are certifying areasic agencies they don't accept anybody else's so it doesn't make business sense uh for theidic uh for the for the meat companies uh to to make a non-asidic because then they won't get any they'll only get you know people from our uh non-asidic communities having a dedicated gives the general market the general i would say non-asidic market and it also gives a um i want to be very clear when i say because just because it says does not mean uh that it has uh that it has significant kash related to hedurum uh in fact in fact some of the uh benefits or higher standards uh in fact some of the requirements uh in addition to facial hair and and a mode of dress and which shin which again is the same way that says it's perfectly legitimate says that every community has a right to define who shid communities are communities but also they have requirements about uh about uh you know going to the mikvah or other personal uh things that are not specifically related to the uh but they definitely relate to the character of the sh whether he fits in with their community um and while that's definitely acceptable it doesn't necessarily mean that the standards are higher in fact um in i could say in the star case case uh we have some significant standards that are much higher than some um not that not that we're not that they're not reliable but that doesn't necessarily mean their standards are higher because they're just means that they're uh i also uh you want to point out is that you know the really is good news is that you know 60 70 years ago when my grandparents came to this country most of the meat was really you substandard from a cautious perspective if possibly not kosher uh today you know the standards are much higher and things are much better we're not this isn't the clarion call uh for major cautious problems um somebody asked how is it there's so much glat meat it's because there's a lot more people and a lot more um uh it's absolutely not true that many years ago the glat meant nois uh glat glat means the bava talks about glat bava was written many years ago before any of us were born i would believe and glat is a certain kind of simple rear or sir adhesion that uh is uh removed um let's let's go to the next uh let's go to the next uh slide here talk about kamita plant issues and these are things these are questions that consumers can ask in the pens are high voltage electric prods used they can cause strayos uh are the head what are the head restraints adequate what kind of head restraint is required remember for if if the animal moves during it becomes an avail um some some require the animal is lying down we have rotating boxes or the shackle and drag uh which is has its own set of challenges postita stunning which really means postita shooting uh is something that uh happens in some places the star doesn't allow it and we don't accept to meet from where this postita stunning because the ramos says that one may not hit the head of the animal after uh for fear that it will stop as it does the flow of blood and there will be nla there'll be blood uh piling up inside the animal uh is there electric current used in the highpuller or or any other part of the line process this is done sometimes to soften the meat and stop what we call bloodshot which is where blood gathers in the meat and that address that is a cautious issue with regard to malika is hot water used in the plant often hot water is used in plants uh to lower the microbial load or the bacteria on an animal on the carcasses and that is not allowed until after the cautioning process is there enough time for the bodeic who's checking uh the basicosis the second stomach which i believe is called the uh to make can he check it well to make sure uh that there is no shas in there what's the speed of the line and does that speed uh in the plant speed does that allow for um the work to be done properly with the taking into account the amount of people working there uh you know there is a plant it's not a glac kosher plant where they're slaughtering 10 a minute i think the fastest glac kosher plant uh in the united states is less than 50 50 an hour so 10 a minute uh would be 600 an hour so uh you know depending on how many shakum you have uh it can allow for a faster line but you want to know that what the speed is and how and whether there's enough staff the acid interventions that are being used are they um being when they're being used in the process are there high concentrations that may affect our soaking and salting process uh do they create a cautious issue for pes now every plant has kosher and non-coosher animals significant kosher and non-coosher animals um you got to they all look the same you got to make sure that they're kosher but look looking carefully at the system uh we have to look at the system carefully to make sure that all the different pieces of the animal the four quarters the tongues the cheeks the tails the hangers the skirts uh are tracked properly and there's tracking of nellos animals that were not shocked properly for whatever reason uh making sure that those pieces you know the lungs from a certain animal were checked to be kosher and those lungs uh need to reflect that a specific um carcass is kosher those things need to be tracked well and there needs to be uh counterbalancing there needs to things need to match up things need need to be put together uh in in in a responsible way and of course these are not necessarily consumers uh questions that you can ask um you know about specifically about every plant but general uh information if you were described about a plant if you ask the questions and you took the time uh you get a very good sense of of how of how things are set up and again you know you may not want necessarily uh to do this work to to make this effort yourself but to be educated about it and to ask questions of others that you know that are knowledgeable uh is definitely valuable most people would probably go to their ro or their rabbi or their kosher agency and ask them which ones do you accept we do get calls like that here absolutely u i i have a meat product under this certification is this one of the places that you've reviewed and that you accept right we get those questions all the time consumers are you know you're able to call us with that with that kind of and i i and and i would believe that uh i believe there's maybe one other national agency uh in the midwest that that also does that kind of thing um because again consumers want to know and your average local rabbi doesn't really have access to to solid real information a lot of raonos send their people uh to agencies when they have such questions uh separation between supervision of kosh and trafe uh is a very big issue in pratt in prattton in a processing plant cleanliness whether they require separate knives and hooks for kosher and trafe or how are they sealed and controlled who has the kosher tape who has the kosher labels who has the kosher boxes how do we control those things you know the the company prints it the company packages it they have big automated machines how do they separate uh dairy and pariff this is a very interesting i was at a plant that the the plant can be used simultaneously i saw it they you they were doing meat dairy paraves and in the same processing facility all at the same time they had many mashkim but you know again as a as a rabbi responsible for kashas i walked out of the plant with extremely high blood pressure um i'm not saying that there was anything wrong with it but it was it's something something to look at and if we would certify it i believe we would uh probably set it up slightly differently um how do we know that soaking and salting is done how how do you how do you protect that some uh plants uh have automated systems for soaking and salting that obviously you have to check the machines every so often but especially here in the united states uh we like to believe that machines are more efficient than people uh which is definitely true for certain machines and certain people um how do they deal with 72 hours we can't have soaking insulting after 72 hours let's say you have a sheet on a friday so in a chicken plant it's not such a problem because the way the chicken plants work is they the chickens don't require nicker and they run through automatic systems in most places but it's not so complicated to get that done by the time shabas comes but when we talk about beef beef normally can't be captured till the day after shita sometimes two days after shita uh so if you go from friday to shabas to sunday to monday so the meat ready is over 72 hours how is it dealt with in years gone by they spritzed the meat a little bit and said that it was resoaked um i guess there are opinions that hold that that's acceptable there are many opinions that require a full resaking and some won't even allow it it's a good thing to know the answer what kind of salt do they use the has requirements for salt uh how is it what do they approve what is what what are its properties what size is it what are its melting properties what are its sticking properties um what are the proper sealing requirements of the boxes and the packages i've always wondered before i became a rabbi before i was sensitive to the world of kash i always wondered uh the basic is that you need two identifying marks on on meat and fish products and probably cheese products as well things that are identical what are the two identifying marks on on our meat you look around sometimes it's hard to tell a lot of times it's a label on the outside and uh and uh it's hard to know what the second simmon is what's the second identifying mark um some companies have date codes that you don't see some companies have use inserts uh there's one company uh actually which the star doesn't use i don't understand at all uh what they're using because they um they have a roll stocked individual packaged retail product and they just put a sticker on that i could print out for my in my printer and there's no no identifying mark in the packaging there's another company that has outstanding seam on it they have printed roll stock with film with the hexure on it um they have special barcodes on it they have a kosher label on it you know and and the cautious agencies uh you know control those labels are very expensive to print and they some of them some you know are impossible to print and you know when i buy a piece of meat from that company i i i feel very comfortable with it because i i i know that you know this was packaged properly and there's a lot of that have a lot of control um what are koshering requirements uh do we kosher within 24 hours after 24 hours uh do we what temperature do they require cautious ingredients uh bishop is what's the arrangement for bish is it work for spartic community all of these things are giant um issues that you know when dealt with properly uh you get a very uh a good result and there are questions that consumers should beware and you know and look out for um uh a lot of times you have a company that you could see their products parik all from the same company uh it's good to ask a question call them up that usually that will talk to you and the more you speak about it the more uh the the more the companies will respond we're certainly willing to respond to any questions that you have uh if not uh today uh by being in touch with us call us at the office or or email uh send us an email like i mentioned before reboundstar-k.org and um the more you ask the the more benefit it will be for cautious and the consumers are in our country are always right and it's you have the ability to raise the standards i want to take a second just to answer uh the rest of the questions that are here before we sign off um so we have somebody here who's a mashia who's asking um that sometimes the cautious agencies only label the box but don't don't label um they stick a label on the outside of the kryve uh they they want to label only meat on the inside of the packages so i want to respond to that first of all there are some companies that put labels on the insides of the packages there are some companies that do not allow that and let me explain why um sometimes the usda in a plant will require a plastic label uh that can be reused uh when you put it on against the meat itself and that can create a tremendous mull uh because you could take that and put it in another bag after you open the first meat uh so what they do do is they we put uh tamperproof labels on the cryovac that would be one simmon if the cryovac itself uh had an insert in it and a tamperproof label on the outside which basically means if you peel it off it rips some have different uh you know systems but more or less a tamperproof label on the outside of the quvac is one simmon if you have an insert it's a second simmon or if the bag is printed it's a second simmon some companies uh close the clip at the top of a bag those are chicken companies with the usda number the word kosher that means that's a kasher simmon the clips are controlled by the mushk uh sometimes there's a plumber that closes a printed bag that would be too similar uh but even if there's only they don't have the plumbers on the chickens themselves almost never growing up we used to have the almost never and why don't they do that anymore uh for cleanliness reasons for health reasons and cost and because they're most chicken is sold cut up today so a plumb one on a wing of a cut up chicken is not very helpful um uh but if you do have a sticker on the outside of kryve that's tamperproof and the box is sealed properly with kosher tape in a way the tamper would tampering would be evident that would be your tus on the box on the outside and the package on the inside however if the uh meat is merchandised in a place without certification then it would only have one simmon um uh somebody asked about how much glot uh meat there is generally speaking uh about the average in the industry is about 35% of the meat that's slaughtered is glot um uh that means that if you slaughter 100 animals 35% of it will come out glot and if you slaughter 200 animals not 35% 35% well 35 i meant i meant 35 i meant 35 so michael is asking a question he wants to know that how come there's so much glot meat in new york and and that's that's because they send the glot meat to new york um most of the facilities that are doing kosher slaughter send any meat that doesn't qualify for glot to the non- kosher market uh only the glut is being taken uh for our meat supply and that's the answer to your question so yes of course all the meat is slaughtered but they have they have to sheft a lot more animals in order to supply the market with uh with glad kosher meat um the reason debbie wants to know why you can't find goat meat uh i tell you debbie somebody just asked me to get a goat for them for the upcoming holiday shoo and when we're done you've reminded me somebody tried to get them a goat uh goat is not that tasty and it's uh has doesn't have that many uh doesn't have that many um doesn't have that many pounds on it uh so it's really doesn't seem to be uh a very profitable uh very profitable business and not too many people want it uh if you want a goat and you're in the baltimore area uh give me a call and it probably cost you much more money than goat should cost but if you really want a goat we'll get you some uh rabbi goldberg here we're going to have a poll over here where we're asking people if they're particular about the brand of meat and chicken that that uh that they eat uh we're we're interested to see if uh you know people buy anything with a good with with a recognized certification uh not that that we criticize anybody for doing either way uh our main requirement would be to have um a a certification on it because then otherwise you just don't know whether it's kosher or not okay we is there a list of star k oh one more question s wants to know if there's a list of star k accepted um we don't publish a list uh we do have an internal list and you're welcome to call the star and ask us if we use a particular a particular meat we do not uh refer to hashkus when it comes to meat um the nature of a slaughter house is that it's so unique things can change all the time uh in each different facility uh could be different even if they have the same hampshire and in fact every single facility is unique uh so it's a facility facility facility by facility and brand by brand basis um but uh you can call the star and ask us if a particular thing is used by the star uh it would be our pleasure to answer okay rabbi holland thank you very much um looks like we're running almost equal but but more people are saying they buy any with a good certification they're not that particular but maybe they will be after hearing what you have to say today um i want to mention that this class will be archived uh give us a little chance to uh to get it up on kosherclasses.org org and uh all our all our sessions are archived there and we are here every last wednesday of the month at 12:00 noon uh at learn kosher.clickweinar.com/cosher if you want to sign up for the emails to know what the topic is and when you know exactly what's going on uh send us an email to [email protected] and we'll sign you right up um sarah holland is pretty much neck andneck we got 50% who who are um buying particular brands 50% who buy any with the certification just curious to see what what people are doing so that's fine thank you very much for for answering the that that poll and do you want to end off with anything any last thoughts about uh kosher meat well what i do want to say is is that i think that it's important that consumers know that kosher meat is definitely the most sensitive part of kosher and of cases and of what when the kosher consumer chooses to buy a kosher meat the more educated they are uh the better they will be fulfilling their cases responsibilities and more so uh the more educated they are they will be helping the kosher agencies uh and their communities and their abum uh exercise as much influence as possible to ensure that our kosher meat supply is indeed as kosher as it can be thank you very much thanks for joining and thanks to elliot ridler and debbie rosenstein for the technical help and we'll see you next month take care