04-28-2010 STAR-K Discusses Anisakis Fishworm

hello and good afternoon welcome to Stark's monthly teleconference Web Conference brought to you by kosher classes.com I'm Rabbi Goldberg and I'm joined today by rabie morai Frankl who is director of our H Institute at the Stark uh today we're going to be discussing I guess what you could consider to be a hot topic which is the issue of bugs in the fish worms in the fish specifically the anisakis worm helping us today with the technical issues is reev Stein as usual and uh getting everything in order and make sure it functions properly we have two ways of joining us one is through the internet at dimdim.com ddim the the uh keyword there is kosher that's our class name and you can also join us through the telephone if uh if even if you're driving or wherever you are you can join us wherever you are in the world through the telephone there's no particular charge unless other than your your own uh telephone uh company Chargers 8951 1203 218 8951 123 and the passcode Is 2020 pound and this class is given at uh the last Wednesday of every month at noon and it's archived it's videoed and archived at kosher classes.com uh under uh podcast so we have put up here for those of us joining us by uh by the web we put up a a a diagram from CDC that's the centers for for disease that's uh that's uh part of the US government of the uh life cycle of this particular worm which has taken the the kosher World by storm in the past uh couple months uh and really uh this little worm which maybe measures uh an inch or two is giving us a run for our money so let's just go through briefly the uh the life cycle if you can see the diagram uh let's see if I make it a little bit bigger uh basically uh and I want to just also preface that uh we're not uh experts in uh fish uh physiology or parasites we're not scientists and uh we and and andic issues we're also delving into but we're don't consider ourselves to be the uh the experts on it we're just trying to provide for you our audience an overview of what what is happening and try to give you an idea of where where where we are today and how how we got there but by no means is this the final word and it's not even the final word for the star uh um which which is right now reviewing its policy on this uh on this particular issue so the uh how how does the how does the uh the worm life cycle look like so basically the mammals ex excrete uh eggs um they hatch basically and I'm I'm sure I'm simplifying this they hatch in the water then they're eaten by by other uh sea creatures like Krill and in the the the cycle of the uh of of the marine life those Krill and uh Crustaceans are eaten by other fish bigger fish maybe like a salmon and then uh those fish are eaten by even bigger creatures like mammals and then again the the eggs are laid and then secreted excreted and so on it's following like that for for for a long time that's the way that uh God created the life cycle so in between there though the human beings get involved and when these when they catch the fish like salmon and other types of fish and they eat them so that is where the question arises of whether or not the uh those worms that you may find in the fish are are permitted or are are forbidden I just for I want to mention that you can uh join us and ask a question if you have you can chat with us on uh on the dimdim uh just there's a chat box there on on the right side of the screen so Rabbi Frank will give us a little bit of a of a background I mean if I'm if I'm eating my fish and I I see a worm in there or there's there's a worm I mean why why should that be permitted we know that Jews are not permitted to eat uh cre worms U they're insects to they're shum whatever you want to call them so what let's start with that that uh that side of why would it be why possibly would it be permitted to eat those well the surprising fact is that um not all worms are actually forbidden to be eaten even though it is true that the tor does tell us not to eat worms there are certain um parameters um which which the gamar delineates the gamar tells us that although most worms cannot be eaten there are certain worms which the gamar considers as having been grown from their beginning from their birth from grow growing inside the animal inside a fish or inside a mammal or potentially inside a plant as well and the gamor says that those worms which their whole life cycle they grow inside the fish and they have never seen the light of day they are part of the fish they are just grown in the fish they start in the fish they grow in the fish they stay in the fish and they're part of the fish and just as though just as much as a person can eat a fish so a person can eat the whole fish including everything that grows inside it now um if a person is eating a fish and a person sees one of these worms even even accepting what the gar says that um that um it might be permissible to eat the worm perhaps um perhaps nowadays it could be that since people looked at look at worms as unappetizing things there was another there was another side uh side issue which is that a person is not meant to do things Al so a person's not meant to eat things which they think are disgusting so it could be that for those reasons a person should not eat the Worm but um if a person um is not aware of the doesn't see the worm and if if it if it really is true that that worm has always always from its from its Inception being inside the fish um it would be permissible to eat that worm and certainly would be permissible to eat the rest of the fish and that's that's uh that's uh that that that that statement of thear is brought in the in the it's born brought without any uh anyone disagreeing with that that that seems to have been a universally agreed upon concept which is relied on for ever since the time the till till nowadays okay so if we have if we have uh so there's a clear law mentioned in the in the code of Jewish law that if there is a worm uh In the Flesh of the fish it is uh it is permitted um and however if it's in the stomach of the fish then it is forbidden right that's correct if if it's in the stomach of the fish that means that it is not a worm which um grew inside the fish the reason it's in the stomach is because the fish swallowed it which means that it was outside the fish it it it was living outside the fish it grew outside the fish and the fish swallowed it so um since it since it was not inside the fish from its conception it would be a treated as a regular one which cannot be eaten right even if you would hold that it would be uh forbidden that then yes you could remove the worms and and eat the fish and um and that's actually what what what those that forbid this uh this worm what they suggest what they require not suggest what they require is that you remove the the worm um it's much like checking a vegetable if you have Roma lettuce that has worms uh not worms they don't have worms they have thrips and aphids on them then you remove those thrips and aphids you check it uh for the you remove them and then you eat the rest of the uh you eat the rest of the vegetable so there would be no different than that Al so again as you mentioned um checking checking the checking these fish would necessitate taking a flashlight shining it through the fish um just as checking vegetables a person has to have a certain expertise that they know what they're looking for in order to check well the same thing could be true over here a person would have to familiarize themselves with the checking process and know what to look for right um espec especially um if the fish is a dark color like it's uh it's pink or red uh there is a special way that you have to check that with the ultraviolet light because you won't be able to just uh see it plainly so it is sort of a new process even people have been checking vegetables Housewives or or or or uh Caterers masim have been checking vegetables for many years but uh they this this would be a new process um okay so mosha is asking here does your fish store need now to have a Mas to make sure it does not have these fish okay so that's the question that is The $64,000 Question of whether or not we're going to require stores to have a special supervisor to make sure that these fish are not being served or if they're being served that they're being checked um uh and and much like the vegetable have to be checked that is the that is the question so let's get back to the some of the issues um so those so there are uh let's take this this those opinions which is a strong opinion of those that uh that forbid this this worm and they say that even though the tal and the and the even though they state that worms in the flesh are permitted but that only that is only if you uh you don't know where it comes from and we sort of assume that it comes from the flesh itself uh it's it it spontaneously generates somehow uh or we don't we don't see it coming in even though we may know it comes in from the outside we haven't seen that but if we have proof that the the worm comes in from the outside it has a life cycle it's found in the stomach and it goes from the stomach into the flesh so then while it was in the uh in in the stomach it was forbidden so then it moves into the Flesh and we have they they have seen apparently that they have a fish and they open it up and they see the worm wiggling from the stomach into the flesh so that seems to indicate that this type of worm would would be then forbidden my my understanding is that the the fish swallows the Krill which contains the worm the worm then resides in the fish's stomach and it'll stay there as long as the fish is generally it'll stay there as long as the fish is alive when the fish dies so then the fish and the fish is taken out of the water and it dies so its temperature starts Rising when the temperature starts Rising so then the fish's stomach is no longer a good place for that worm to live so it'll start to migrate out from the stomach and and call its way into the flesh um to find a better place to to live so that is why even though the worm was eaten and was in the fish stomach that's why um it'll it'll be found in the skin if the fish is chilled and kept cold after it's after it's CAU then these worms will tell not to be found in the fish it's the um it's the fact that um after uh after the fish is caught and it dies the fish uh starts eating up that causes the worm to migrate into the skin right so we saw that there are studies that show that uh even though there may be a high percentage of of of uh of worms in a particular species in the stomach but if they gut it right away then the worms are not so so common so we've seen I've seen some some studies that show very high percentage let's say in wild salmon uh of of the anisakis Worm but that doesn't prove necessarily that it's uh it's going to be found in in in the in your canned salmon that's just saying those studies are just showing that they opened up the salmon and they saw in in the stomach perhaps that there was a high percentage that doesn't prove that in the can salmon is going to be a a high percentage um you know that that there are studies some of the kosher organizations have been doing studies on the percentages in actually the canned salmon when they can the salmon they don't can the stomach contents they don't can the stomach but the question is whether or not like you say was was it gutted right away was it uh did it die first and so as you pointed out that that all affects the percentage of how it's going to how how how many worms are going to be in the in the flesh because that is also another we should mention about the how prevalent is it right if there are even the fact that there may be a worm in the fish does not necessarily and even if that worm is forbidden doesn't preclude us from necessarily eating the fish it depends uh how prevalent is it I mean I could find a worm and an apple but does that mean I'm obligated to check every Apple no because the preponderance don't have was the two separate issues one issue is if you see one if you see if you see a woman an apple certainly has to be removed that's clear the question is are you obligated to check an apple do we have do you have to suspect that there might be a worm there which would necessitate checking so generally since worms are generally not found in apples that we that we have there's no necessity to check it if you do see one one would have to remove it but one doesn't have to check the same question would could be posed by this SP certainly if you see the worm then according to those those who are stringent about this they they feel that this worm is a problem does that necessitate that you have to check every fish that would depend on the prevalence the likelihoods of this one this one actually being in the flesh okay so um that that is another question of how how common it is uh we have a comment here saying uh that it's um that it is uh it is very common in in the canned salmon uh okay I mean that's okay that's uh that's his experience um I think the question we still have to address which we still is assuming that you do find a worm assuming it is very common ultimately is it is it is it is this going is this worm going to be one of the worms which is considered as having between having generated in fish and is permissible to eat or is it a worm which which we would look at as coming from the outside and uh being forbidden to eat that that again as you mentioned that is the big question uh what's the what what what makes what's are the criteria by which we would consider a worm as being from the inside and being from the outside that is the debate among the Contemporary uh uh right rabbis over the Contemporary post that's how we look at this worm another point is that those who who permit this worm uh some argue that uh that the rabbis did not expect us to become fish uh Pathologists and experts to know exactly the life cycle uh the gamar the talmud in learning and deriving this this permissibility of worms in the flesh of fish is sort of giving a blanket statement and uh does not depend on us really following the science T doesn't require us to become scientists that's their that's their argument again we're not we're trying as much as possible not to take a position because the star is still reviewing its it's its own uh position we're just trying to to toh discuss what the what the different opinions are so they argue those that permit that the Torah doesn't require us to become experts and even if we the scientists uh claim or or can show us that they come from the outside that's irrelevant it's sort of a blanket uh permissibility given by the and the talud I the simple meing of the talud it's almost sounds like the tal is telling us that these worms which are found in fish are like spontaneously generated Within within the fish they don't come from the outside scientists tell us that all worms whether worms in fish worms in animals worms in in in Fruit there's no such thing as spontaneous generation they all come from the outside um um many many those who want to reconcile science with the talud will tell you that even though that might be true that scientifically they come from the outside but that then that's not the way it's perceived that's not the way it's looked at we um have when they when they when they come into the the plant or the or the or the fruit or the fish they're of such minimal size that that's not significant and therefore for halakic purposes it's enough that we would consider it it having being generated within the fish um that's the again the question then would be what is the cutter point in terms of size how small does something have to be to when when it's ingested by the fish how small does it have to be that it's that we would say that that that that uh insect is that that bug is so small that it's that even though it was ingested by the fish um we would look at it as having just grown from the fish and when is when is the when is the worm considered big enough at the time of ingestion that we would say no this came from the outside um until until recent until recently even though this anastakis SW was something which was known about for at least 100 years um the understanding at least among Rabon him was that this fish was U microscopic at the time that it was swallowed by the krill and therefore um could could could uh could could certainly be viewed at as not coming from the outside as having been generated within the Krill and within the fish um a lot of this uh the reason this is this issue has come back on the table and been Revisited is that it seems to be uh that's actually bigger actually bigger than bigger it's visible now some there is a question here uh if the tal and permit this why does star even need to weigh in because it's so clear that is permissible well it's really not not so clear as a matter of fact our understanding is that the uh the goolm the great sages in Israel uh who Liv in the land of Israel have come out with a uh a statement that these are actually forbidden so that's that's the latest news I mean again it's clear that the T says and the says that there are certain ons which are permissible that's clear the question is whether whether these are are those that are permissible and uh I've seen some point out that there are perhaps that the talud was referring to other types of worms which would be actually common in that part of the world I mean one does have to say there is a certain that that argument is there is some there is a somewhat compelling argument that the T does not distinguish between different kinds of worms that would seem seem to indicate that all worms are permissible those those that are lenient on this issue that is the argument that they would present that the the fact that the T does not distinguish between types of worms allows one to assume that all worms would would would would fall under the um the blanket the blanket lency of the talet right and and and and uh the reason we we I don't think we mentioned the reason that it would be permitted um after all aren't worms worms is that it's not may not be called a sherid h they're not called a an insect a creature of of the sea if it grows in the flesh of the uh of the fish so it doesn't we can derive from the Torah perhaps that it is it is permissible let me take let me take a minute just to u to mention that uh we are here at the star offices I'm Rabbi Goldberg this is Rabbi morai Franco and uh you're joining us either on dimdim.com where I see actually that we have reached the maximum amount of allowed participants so if anybody had trouble getting through that is the reason why because uh I guess this issue generates uh a a lot of interest uh it is opening up a can of worms as they say and and that's that's really what the but you can still come through on the telephone because we have unlimited uh ability on the on the phone on the phone what is the final opinion of the Stark I'm just reading one of the shorter questions I see there's some that are they're going to take me some time to work through but uh there is no final opinion yet and we're just again we're not here to give you what the final opinion is originally uh raan felt that that this did uh these worms were included in the talmudic uh leniency however he's considering the issue again and um you know right now we are we're on sort of on on hold um if you would want to see which fish are included and which are not included so Rabbi Bess from California on his website let me see if I can uh I can bring that up it's co.org so it's uh k y a a k ov.org and that site on that's that's a sh site that's uh Rabbi bess's uh site he has um some reason the computer is not allowing me to uh to look that up but I'm not sure why but on that site he he lists the his latest research of which which uh would be problematic so let's just go through some of that RAB Franco uh of course we have the canned salmon which uh which is the wild salmon as we mentioned before uh which uh canned salmon is always wild and in the wild the salmon swallowed these worms uh we have some flounders some particular types of flounder Yellow Tail wild dabs Etc other flounder The fluk Flounder is fine which where is that oh fluke Georgia Banks and channel flounder are okay we have um sardines are problematic if they're from Norway or Scotland and um okay those the following fish do not require checking we have carp farm rais salmon which we mentioned before uh gilter fish uh Herring filet okay we have uh sardines from Morocco Philippines and Portugal tilapia tuna these are all fine and Whiting fish and white fish from Michigan um so I think this list is is changing so it's not even that is not the final word on it because as they go through the research so they're coming up with with different uh different conclusions um can you please send the list in the email so we can print it uh we could try to do that again the website is K Yakov org okay let's see what else we we we can um we can deal with here's someone claiming I was in a laska in the salmon caner where did that go got lost uh where our alas visitor go below it okay and from each salmon fish they can five six cans and they can the entire fish including the stomach area well not the stomach itself as a matter of fact about four cans will have a part of the stomach area Okay I I assume that doesn't mean the stomach itself meaning the flesh around the stomach um okay well then it could have worms and and it it very well probably does have some some worms question is again how many um and the research is coming in on that as well I think this is an important question is there pressure to us of this is that why we Pam is revisiting this Pak um again the whole issue is being Revisited because of the continuing research um there's a lot of facts which um scientific facts which uh at least uh been Community was not aware of till till uh till it was brought to their attention recently um um you know I think that um rabman will tell us what he feels is the true um the true opinion and how he feels the stock should um should conduct itself now this's question that I think is is on a lot of people's minds what happened in previous uh Generations I mean this is not a new invention this anakis worm it wasn't created yesterday so and and and and all of a sudden in the year 2010 people are now raising the issue what happened 50 years ago 100 years ago a thousand years ago and we haven't really heard about this and how can it be that all of a sudden this is an issue that that's a question I think that's on a lot of people's minds what would you say to uh to that Rabbi Frank well again the T tells us that tells us that a person's allowed to eat fish with worms in it um this again without without any knowledge one would assume that um that the general worms of and fish would be included Within this leniency that the fish are considered as having grown within the within the worms have considered as having grown within the fish um that that might be true but when a person can actually show you the video of this fish swallowing it and of it coming from the stomach and worming its way out so then it becomes um it becomes um becomes somewhat clearer that um that um that this this whatever worm it is that the F was talking about um possibly was not the one that we have nowadays so then then the question becomes all the uh all those that ate this fish all the great rabbis that ate the fish you know 50 years ago without this this this raising this issue well how did they do that yeah I think that a person's legitimately allowed to rely on the simple reading of the without knowing any unless there's any knowledge of any facts the contrary a person a person would be allowed to make the assumption that the worms that he sees are included within the um the so really really what you're saying is they really weren't technically permitted but since nobody knew they weren't doing anything wrong well I would I would seem to me that um um you know we have we have certain rules of in the Torah like following the majority and following the status quo which a person is allowed to rely on even even a person's allowed to rely on those kind of rules until one knows the status quo has changed one's allowed to the status quo and even even if one eventually discovers the status qu changed in the past it doesn't necessar that doesn't mean that one was doing something wrong at the time that one was relying on status quo um those are you know that that those are so he had he had a right to rely on it at that point right also the uh there is some discussion of whether there is a greater incidence of this worm nowadays there are studies I have a lot of paperwork here but I can't uh find it right off the top of of of the stack um that that there are studies that show that the incidence is much greater and it the uh the amount uh of worms that you find now is much greater than it used to be for whatever reason I I don't know exactly what what you know what the reason is but there there are studies that do show that again as you mentioned the obligation to check would only would only exist if there's a certain certain likelihood of finding it it could be that in previous times it was less likely to find these worms there was no necessity to check possibly nowadays it's more likely also possibly nowadays perhaps these worms are not microscopic perhaps in previous times they were smaller again depending on um things things do seem to change in terms of the the could be could be that it changed over time someone is asking what are the names of the gdan the rabbis in Israel in Isel they came out with a statement to forbid it we don't have that we don't yet have that a copy of that so I could not provide you with with that list but um I have it uh I understand that it is going to be made public uh shortly so the um I think you mentioned the I think the most I think the compelling those who are lenient the compelling reason to be lenient is because um you know we're having this whole discussion over here based on all this research done by various scientists again um is the Layman expected to know all this does the Torah obligate the person to be an expert in fish fish fish science um that would the that would certainly be reason to say that um a person is allowed to rely on the simple reading of the again the the the alternative approach would be that now that we know we know seem to know definitively that uh that that that these worms are are not the way they described in the so then perhaps um the lency does not apply to them that's the that's the cracks of the debates to my to to my to my right now I I I realize why the computer uh was not allowing me before to bring up this web page Rabbi Frankl because I put in the wrong address computers don't make mistakes people do so it's not K Yakov it's actually kilas yakovgyp uh from every best of the the current uh fish which are on the permitted list and those that are are problem um it seems it seems uh fairly likely that what's going to happen is that there are going to be as as the questioner asked before there are going to be um supervisors at the facilities to check the fish that's the way it looks like like we're going to uh require and so it really should not make that much of a difference to the consumer he'll still be able to eat all the fish that that he would like um and I I suppose in terms of salmon what they can do is uh either they can have a supervisor there full-time which actually the star k requires anyway for any fish production in order to see the scales and ascertain forget forgetting about the worms just to make sure that it's a Kosher fish we do require that anyway so so any Star production there has to be a uh a supervisor there anyway those that don't require a full-time supervisor either they would require it or they perhaps can uh arrange the the uh process of that canery so that it doesn't cause any problems so that they got it at the right place at the right time they freeze them at the right you know at the right temperature and and so on you know I just want to mention that the the the reason that the government is interested in this also is that this parasite when it when when a human inest it's actually dangerous for them uh it could cause some disease so if a person is eating raw fish that's not properly cooked uh it could and and and has this worm in it it could be very problematic for the dangerous unhealthy for the for the human uh and so they want to make sure that the fish is either properly cooked or frozen because after it's after it's frozen at a certain temperature for a certain amount of time I don't remember the exact details it uh it it dies now and it doesn't cause any problem for the uh for the consumer in terms of health but it's still a dead insect or worm is still forbidden uh the fact that it's dead doesn't play a role in the in the kosher uh in the kosher world so uh even though something may may have approval of the government Health authorities that doesn't mean that it's going to be okay for us okay somebody here is is uh trying to put out the the letter that has been uh signed by the uh the rabbis in ER Isel in Israel um and it's here on the chat I guess you can you can read through it um okay I think uh we will it's been it's been an interesting discussion R Franco um it's it's a discussion without yet a a conclusion for us at the star k we do not yet have an an official uh policy about it we're reviewing it as um as all all all H issues are are subject to review and um the rabbis in Israel also have reviewed the issue and come out with with their and we have to see now what will say now that we have this uh this letter from from those uh great rabbis um I want to thank everybody for uh for joining us this discussion is archived at kosher classes. I want to thank rebstein for all his technical uh technical help actually we also have the ability to put the video up on that site right so uh if that's that's another ability that we recently were able to to uh to put together this class is held at the end of every month on the last Wednesday at noon at dimdim.com and uh by phone uh where is the phone number 218 1203 P code is 2020 pound and uh someone is asking what is the current recommendation well if we're not giving a clear leniency so then I guess it would be prudent to uh to be uh careful about it what would you say to that question R Franco um um I'll have chicken for supper you'll have chicken for supper okay uh I mean yes uh I would say that every person should ask their own particular Rabbi go to the his his it says every person has to have his own particular Rabbi who he follows and he should ask him um this is a legitimate debate and you know as gos us there are different rabers with different opinions but has the right to R opening his Rabbi SES should rely on his uh his uh his his Ro um again I think so hopefully that we provided some information that will help help you in this navigate these Waters excuse the pun and uh as usual you're all you're all welcome to uh be in touch with us either by email at star-k at stark. org um or by phone 410 484 4110 41048 44110 thank you very much for joining us and have a very good day