01-31-2013 STAR-K Discusses Heimishe Catering Without A Mashgiach - Why Not?

hello and welcome to Stark's monthly webinar I'm your host Rabbi Goldberg to my right is our guest today Rabbi Mar kurzfeld sh welcome back Rabbi kurzfeld uh thank you for taking out the time today to come we're here the last Wednesday of every month at learn kosher.com forcer uh if you sign up online for our alerts at star-k .org you can receive uh alerts about these classes and when they're going to be taking place and what the topic is and so on if you like to call in and join us by phone sometimes people have trouble with their uh with their computer sound the number is 218 8951 1203 218 895-1203 passcode uh 2020 pound and today's topic is going to be about heish Caterers uh Caterers who are uhab religious but may not have a Mas or certification what are the issues that confront us when dealing with such a a caterer um you're welcome to chat with us the bottom of your screen you'll see a chat box and uh we' like to take questions and uh we may even be able if if you have a question you'd like to voice we can even if you have a microphone a camera we'll be able to bring you in in that way as well uh so let's get start kurfi what's the uh what's what are the is some of the issues here that we need to be aware if someone wants to have such a cater make such a an affair okay first I'd like to thank you for having me I just want to stress as a preface before we begin to make any comments I do want to say that nothing that we're about to share with you has anything to do with God forbid anyone trying to um misguide anybody it is situations that sometimes are overlooked this is heisha catering that I've observed over many years I've been doing this for 30 years and it's even H Caterers that are under supervision um but the supervision the he does not require a Mas they simply require that the owner is of shabas and he's responsible for all kous related requirements so so what's the what's the scenario that we're seeing someone's making a bar mitzvah right so what what are their options and U you know let's take it from there okay so just the beginning is is that I think we all agree that um generally there's an attitude that's prevalent amongst all kosher consumers that if it's owned if the vendor is a shabas then what can be wrong and I've always used a scenario that all of us and I think both of you and I will agree all of us have mistakenly done something wrong in our own little personal kitchen the little doar of our homes taking the wrong fork or spoon and mil versus Flik FL versus mil and um I know that I've been called on the carpet I've been working at cash as I said a long time and my wife calls me on the carpet all the time for taking the wrong spoon so I am I'm as human as anybody else and yet when it comes to a catered event when there's a lot going on many guests waiters Cooks everything running around and of course the vendor is focused on that particular Sim to make sure that the the host or the hostess is is and yet there's an attitude I don't know he can somehow control 500 forks and 500 spoons and fish and meat and we're going to discuss today a little bit about the of chabas also that sometimes they're not being properly addressed and that's that's what this whole thing is about to try to give a ity to the that in fact that's a misconception and it does need someone who is specifically looking uh about the kous issues so let me guess you're not in favor of having an event without a mash I am not I am not correct you are correct for sure I agree with you what you said before at the minimum you need a hash who's guiding you with rules and regulation uh not every person automatically because you're shabas you're gor and you know every Rule and regulation of what needs to be done whether it's a weekly um or even on chabas or we take it for granted but I think again if you look at yourselves whoever is listening to this program I think you'll be moed that there are some things that possibly you would love to come to one of our uh programs to learn uh handson on some of the U on some of the things that are cous related that that needs guidance and experience so so what is some things that might might come up okay so let's go through the scenario even in a sh I I know that I've gone to many in in a and you can come in and you let's say Mitzvah on chabas and I have very often found the CER is daving with the with the uh with the sh with the owner with the with the B with the S and there's no one whatsoever I see when I go downstairs I see people running around uh clearly not Jewish and uh back and forth and even more so if they are Jewish but they're not shabas that makes it even compounds the problem even much more so and um there's nobody down there no mas nobody observing to make sure that whether it's weekday that all the rules and regulations of of kosas are being properly implemented and on chabas whether those that are specific for shabas are not being violated so have you seen actual violations uh well or listen yeah I'm going to be the first one to be M those who are are listening who work in kous no one of us can say that we've never observed even problems when there is a Mas so you can imagine when there's not one so let's just take one common one um let's take chabas for example I think one of the by far the biggest rule of shabas that is that is commonly uh overlooked or viol ated and not necessarily I'm not saying purposefully but I must admit that sometimes even purposefully and that is air the vendors just simply feel since it's a non-jewish person I can tell them what I need how I need it when I need it if I need it with no thought of how does that deal with the and and again I've experienced it even with Mas sometimes Mas have caught that happening where for example they might have forgotten something they might have uh neglected to bring something and they'll and they'll supposedly they'll hint sometimes directly tell because they don't want to look bad to the host or the hostess so let's say they forgot the desserts or something they tell the cater might tell his worker uh to go oh we forgot something we forgot this item and uh and again today's program not to go through every single scenario what theas are but just realize that these things are very prevalent to be found and take that as I mentioned before everything that I'm going to say please have in mind I just went to a Sim two weeks ago in bar Park and every waiter that was working there was a Russian ra waiter I'm guessing to me they they looked all Jewish and I always wondered to myself uh how that is done when you have Jewish non shabas waiters working in the kitchen and on the floor and that all that is uh properly covered with nobody really uh specifically uh appointed to make sure that everyone saying there wasn't any no because so they're relying on on the owner to tell everybody to know what to do and to be able to direct everybody to do the proper exactly but I say all of us again think of just when you're doing your own thing at home you're observing so many things and you're watching so many things a vendor they're human and a caterer is focused primarily on delivery of the food presentation of the food that should be on time and that everything should go the way it should be he is unfortunately his first thought again not the to fault of his own that's just the msus is not focused on the Kash end and that's why somebody who is focused on the K's end has to be there we have here a question so let's see if we can address this RAB when does the principle of apply when does it not apply so the question is to reframe it is that uh we have a rule that an individual uh who keeps kosher and keeps Theos uh uh he's he's believed when he says that this is kosher cor we don't require anything else in apparently according to that rule if somebody comes along and says this is kosher meat so we trust him if he keeps kosher this is this is what he says so why is it different uh why can't we trust the the the religious owner who was seemingly careful about kosher to to tell us that this event is kosher well I'm not saying there's there's no question about it but you cannot say that there's no whatsoever U that you have to take into account any neus the person might have when you're assessing the aid like any Aid when you're assessing that Aid you have to he has a bias he has a if there is a bias if there is a bias if there's a practical issue that possibly not again not intentionally that's being overlooked he when he says it's kosher he means it there's no I don't I'm not saying that he's in any way thinking differently but I can tell you that we've hadim of shabas vendors in many aspects of um I just give you two examples one of the big things now is uh yoson everything is people attempt to make product yoson I can tell you countless stories of my own where I've come into vendors who have on their own somehow I I couldn't figure out how but somehow deciphered uh the um the codes on flower that they figured out that this item is kosher based on codes and I would challenge them at the time I said you know I know how to read codes could you tell me how you read this code and by the end of course uh not purposely but they were it was erroneous they had made an error but the product was used uh based on their on their on their assessment so we won't allow a right this is our rule we won't allow a vendor on a product to claim it's Yos or it's p or it's some stringency unless we have approved it we don't we don't say we take responsibility respons we don't say certification is over here and the other side it says all these other things so that has nothing to do with us we don't we we we don't uh recommend that but you see if according to this question of that one person would be believed then we really really wouldn't require a certification on store on a on a butcher store which is you go back you know a thousand years that's the way they did it it wasn't not today it's not practical today in any shape so that's really what the question is you're saying basically it's so busy and so so many things happening buying and selling and and ordering and and customers and it's much more it's too busy for the person to be focused on the kosher right and I say again and and and and and and unfortunately we've had cases where it was purposeful so even though they're shabas sometimes people the you know things do get the better of oneself and sometimes they rationalize and they come up with some hatum uh somewhere in their and and it's not I give you another example I think all of us um I assume know how to make a su we at the star k here in Baltimore every Suka is looked at prior to sukus to make sure that it's been properly put together you would think that every sh shabas person especially sh person would know already how to make a proper Suka and know at least the basic nuances of the of su again I'm being made and I'm here in this case suas that many suas I uh have not been put together right I once had a story shabas guy was putting up a Suka the all the was put up and and not all the walls were put up he had a wraparound Suka and he simply left two walls down for the convenience and not having to keep going back out of the door to to to to properly adjust the and I if I had come 5 minutes later like we always say here at the star k in you need if I had just come in five minutes later I would have missed that and the walls would have been put up I never would would have known that it's tasa According to some opinions that would be kosher that would be kosher that's not not ideal not ideal definitely not ideal and sometimes the way they put up the is not is not acceptable right I once had one I once had one who put up that was he wanted to make it fancy he didn't know better and um he put it in steps so it should go down he actually put up a step frame so it should look nice when you look from the inside that the was in in the steps not that it wasn't kosher at the end but that he did that and at the end had to be assess was by if it was kosher we have we have a question from Ab from Chicago I assume that's Rabbi sharp from the Chicago rabinal Council sometimes he joins us um does the star allow their certified Caterers to do any Full Service Catering or drop of catering without a star Mas on duty what is our policy our policy at the Stark is very simple we try to draw clear lines of demarcation and make it clear to vendors and to everybody because if you make too many uh exceptions it's not good you have to have Clarity so we did put out if anybody would like uh these things I do have available to share with any anyone of of the agencies or ramaker that clearly uh delineates what are the parameters of the how this works and the basic thing is that if the caterer is there or their primary representative someone that everybody knows is the manager of their programming a mash must be there if it's food being our approved MH of course our approved Mash must be there if the if food is being served if there service going on um or even if the vendor is not there but their primary manager primary person their wife whoever is part and parcel of the of the facility could even be his oldest son that um um you need a Mas and we talking about they're using but even if they're not using everything could be disposable people assume when they see the caterer that it's under the starc a food service for us is very simple a food service is it's disposable uh uh packaging let's say like uh like aluminum foil pans properly sealed gets dropped off regardless if even sh shabas is is taking it we demand that everything has to be properly we require everything has to be properly double sealed because you never know who's going to be at the house or even if it's going to a a Jewish place a sh cuz you never know it could be the janitor it could be uh the mate um accepting the product we seal it it goes there and the and that's where the vendor's responsibility ends the host or the hostess the the B they are responsible beyond that that's considered a food service and it does not require a m so you might see this at a at a morning bris right you see the so the platters so they're dropped off by a certified caterer correct but he's not allowed to stay uh because if he if he manager would stay so it looks like it's under our certification so he leaves correct so if people want so then we're not responsible the starc is not responsible people could bring the liquor that they want or or anything bring what they want and we can't we don't guarantee that that's the food is that is is that is that a type of event where you'd also recommend to have a morning BR or you talking about provided by the actual yes that's something they have to decide how how complicated it is and how uh you know what you know that's something for the B and the people to decide how sensitive is the product and how it's being utilized if you're doing in the ovens and all this you know if you have someone who you can feel confident a relative or someone else you know that's up you know it's hard to hard to decide case everything is already prepared they're already it's not it's getting getting dropped off it's not like shabas which is much more of a concern right well it all depends again it all depends there's there's another point I want to add back to our original uh topic AB says great minds think alike so I assume that this whatever you said was a stark policy is a cc policy as well okay good if he needs our our if a would like to have by sharp do you have a uh do you have a microphone and a camera we can uh we can bring you in but anyway we if if they need our what we sent out to all the Caterers to to clear because we we were having problems with this uh Clarity all the different all the different scenar we policy we made have a policy we actually wrote it out so if anybody would like a copy of that to share I would love to you know please send me an email be I'll be glad send an email to info@ stark. org we bead glad to share or you can call us at 4110 I'd like to discuss another area which again any of the ones who don't work in kers whoever was listening to this and is not either Rak or or Mas um I want you to ask yourselves this question how many of you who are listening to this to this program actually know clearly know how to check bugs how to check every type of vegetable that's normally eaten and to know what not just the procedures procedures I can give you any book in the world for procedures I know there's nice one from mer has nice beautiful pictures big blown up pictures of bugs that's very nice and dandy but I I keep saying none of us would ever dream of using any doctor or any uh surgeon and when you ask them how did you learn how to do the surgery says I learned it in a book I saw livers and I saw a heart and I'm going to start doing heart surgery cuz I happen to learn in a book if whether it's nicker or checking for bugs a can't become a unless he learns it from somebody can't do nicker unless he learns it from somebody I don't care how much you read in a book and so too when it comes to checking for bucks just because you're shabis most people that I've ever met with because I do a lot of this we had the Stark myself and Rabbi tendler do a lot of uh we demonstrate this to to to groups and if anybody ever needs an actual demonstration they want to we do have programming available we we're going to have in the works to have an online webinar with videos and pictures and and um that's nice try try I mean we do what we can it's a start but ultimately But ultimately you need hands on you need hands on practice so we can't do that yet through the webinar so I can only tell you again from my uh experiences people love when we do it we have I even even did it for very here in boltimore to uh to a group of women who are one of the uh well-known names and and they were very appreciative to finally really learn B how to do it I'm only using that as a preface as a segue to make the point just because a vendor is sh shabas does not guarantee you in any shape or form that they are 100% equipped uh in proper um inspection of of vegetables but one more step take that responsibility and add the 100 other responsibilities that the vendor has toward his event and toward every other event that he's doing toward all the cooking and the the uh making sure that everything is set up right making sure everything I guarantee you I don't know how a vendor would have any time whatsoever in his schedule to properly be available just for that one responsibility of checking vegetables when you have a major especially if it's a big big event and and if he has a slew of other events going on also they don't have the time nor the nor the stamina nor the and a lot of them honestly do not know automatically do not know some do but some don't and therefore our point of our programming today is about not taking it for granted so just realize not everybody just because they're automatically sham shabas and meanwhile do know properly how to check for bucks so uh we have a question here um so every everyone is required to take a class before they can eat vegetables uh well first of all depends what kind of vegetables not cucumbers or oh we're talking about the sensitive right the ones that are problem either you have to know what you're doing or you have to relying somebody who knows what they're doing exactly I mean yeah I mean that's a fact and the person who's asking this question has a good point I wish I could go around and and and and and really uh do this for everybody in a sense and get everyone together because the fact is once it is presented to people when you start hearing the O and A's and uh I can't look at this you then you know that you've done your job they finally start seeing that the what they believe doesn't exist does exist it's just a matter of getting your eyes attuned to it but okay that's a separate conversation everyone should go out and properly learn how to check their vegetables they they they do need to they do there is another followup question we're getting a little bit off topic but how about our neighbors how do we trust them with our vegetables do I need a starcase certification to join a meat I think it means a meal mhm with my neighbor uh I mean that's that's an issue you that is something to consider when you take you accept an invitation what is this per obviously it's a sensitive thing you're not going you're not going to ask the neighbor you know did you do you know how to check Romain letters but you need to to to assess in your mind people do this they they try to figure out I mean isn't really so much off topic because we're talking about sh shabas and we're assuming sh shabas know and sometimes they make mistakes well maybe maybe they bought the certified you know bag I want to give you another example cuz we can talk about this but I want to go to as many because we only have a certain amount of time give you another example all of us would think that that we know properly how to take Ka there are a lot of today people are trying to need to expand their businesses and we have a lot I know theum other states here in Baltimore is the same in New York is the same people have businesses in their basement one of the big ones now is fancy cookies fancy baked goods and um all those who are in kous know a lot of these uh uh homemade literally homemade products I want to share with you that this is every time every time and honestly it's a rabbi fault more so than the actual person I don't think there's Clarity that's given over we there's even assumptions made by the by the rabinal that's somehow the fact that the the woman is automat sh she automatically knows every and Nuance that she needs to know about baking I am telling you one of the most common problems I find in in my questioning is kalot taking when I hear their procedures for kalot taking it is not always up to part so let's just so when a person makes a dough of a certain size uh they need to remove a certain amount of of dough and set that as side um which is used to be given to the Kohan the to the priests in the olden days nowadays we just burn it so I mean there is a a technical procedure that has to be done and at which point you're at and how you have to do that that proper procedures and and the usual one that I find that has uh that is uh overlooked even by the rabbis is that there is a and a requirement if you have enough flour of course to take Kal on cake everyone thinks of bread but they don't realize that if you make especially these these these even homemade ones especially factories but let's think even the homemade ones if they had taken enough for example porms coming up that is the most time that they're making a lot they have a big orders and now they're making the little cakes individual cakes but they're making big batters at a time or collectively throughout the day they're making quite a few bads they have the opportunity to take kala and they should be taking kala and and they're not taking kala correctly and they never have been told to take Kal and I've brought this to Rabin agencies but again the point being is that automatically because sh shabas doesn't guarantee you that they know precisely how to do it um so just bear that in mind also just as a side note you should know that a lot of do allow which is surprising to me but do allow uh the the sh shabas uh owned vendors to bake in their own kitchen which is floors me personally floors me every time I hear it I know one particular Rabbi who I've spoken to but I've spoken to others also and I asked them how do you do that how do you I mean basically you have to uh supervised her whole kitchen what she does during the week for her family how do you that's one thing to have a separate kitchen down in the basements that's isolated and reserved only for production that I can hear and then then you have to trust the sh shabas person to use it exclusively only for the business and not for example if she has a SIM of her own her daughter got engaged this is one of the questions I asked do you sometimes if you need extra ovens you go downstairs and put your coules downstairs in the ovens no it's reserved exclusively for the for the businesses but some do allow the woman to cook in her own kitchen and make the product in her own kitchen and I said to them I understand maybe for yourself you trust a lady you want to eat in her home that's your privilege but as a rabinal agency I would think that the proper way is is since everyone you're representing all your constituents as a policy as a policy you would think that people were not aware of this and that um you would think that you would would demand that they would have some isolated place and otherwise you would have to supervise their whole kitchen throughout the week which is of course ridiculous I just want to pause for a second uh we're here in the star offices in Baltimore with Rabbi kurzfeld speaking about the need and when you need to have a mash a supervisor for your event or your uh your baking uh we we do have quite a uh collection assortment of different participants from around the world we have uh we have from South America we have some uh some participants I noticed that uh Halper has joined us he's one of our um masim down there we have Rabbi Langer from Texas uh spir from Isel from Israel so uh among all the other people I may have missed but uh we thank you for for joining us if you have any questions about this topic please chat with us or you can reach us at afterwards at 4110 or info at star- k.org um Jeff asks does the Stark have a requirement on how many masim they require based on the size of an event or venue well yeah absolutely yeah it is again I can't give you a a hard fast rule but every event is assessed based on the size based on you can have you know less people but they're spread out out in many different areas that makes a difference there one of the big things that needs to be addressed is when there's non- kosher going on hotels those who work in hotels know what I'm what I'm referring to is uh one of the most complicated that's one of the jobs is to figure out how many that's one of your Specialties how many but also the logistical setup and and I've and I've always said um and I say again my colleagues will uh will be able to Echo this and the same feeling that if anyone dreams that they can come in on the day of the event on a Sunday when the is going to be at 4:00 and they're going to start figuring out how they're going to do a setup when there's a trafe other event going on and they're going to start it ain't happening parit is not happening so here in Baltimore all the vendors know that uh every facility that we go to is already we have a certain template of how we allow the setup it's not by choice it's by Direction um if there's anything outstanding something unusual or a new facility no one's allowed to book a new venue without me first seeing it to see if it's possible and if it's possible what under what conditions it's possible and under What scenario we're going to agree to it um so I know many times I've seen come from other uh well-known and they've come into Baltimore sometimes with one Mas and the event is on two floors and there's the kitchen and there's trafe going on and I've questioned it or simply if it's on on one floor and the question being um how you plan your setup on today I I I don't want to go through all of it again because of this time but just use your imagination it is it is sometimes very disheartening to me um I want to add another another area just getting back to shabas all of us know there are rules of how to properly uh deal with food that is being heated up on the stove top or in the oven on shoping whether it's Friday night or whether it's shabas day um I'm not going to go through all the hakas right now but realize that again i' I've watched vendors they can't help themselves they lift up the the lids of pots of the chill pot they have to see a 100 times they have to see how their chill is doing and uh there only very specific ways that you're allowed to do that there are situations of uh let's just take the case that I had before with the Russian workers Jewish workers um I always ask myself what is the responsibility of the vendor or let's take even ourselves theim to allow Jewish workers when we know 1,000% that they're driving up I where where's the heter in that where's the where's I mean where's the conscience in that so here at the star k of hman has a fast Rule and we have been mock bit about it as best as to our ability that anyone who's been identified as shabas as jewi excuse me as Jewish thank you for the correction anyone who's been identified as as as as uh as a Jew regardless of whether they're shabas or not sh shabas um they have to follow during that time that they're at the at the uh when it's connected to the to the event they have to act in a sense as shabas so we can't we can't they're not allow to drive up and a matter of fact we had one particular person who was and this was a manager this was not some waiter or waitress and we actually caught the person uh the first time you know you don't punish someone unless you first give them a warning they were caught and uh they were warned that they again if you want to work on shabas you may not drive up on shabas and you have to make a you know accommodations locally where you can walk so we don't want to be a party to Arrangement where Jew the Jews have to have to drive to start but also but first let me just end with that comment and then we caught the person again and they it sounds very odd to say the word but they were suspended they they were you can work during the week but you cannot work on shabas and I and they were it really humbled the person and was it took about three months of um of asking again and asking again let me come back give me give me some Mikvah some way of getting to and eventually um it was assessed that the person really in a sense learned the lesson and bar we've not had any problems with that individual since is asking isn't isn't there an umbrella organization of hashas countrywide and if there is why isn't there a uniform policy that everyone must follow like one of the star so the problems you have brought up can be minimized or eliminated there's not really such we try there is there is ano there is an organization but it's it's not like that where you can just you know come up with one make a rule and say everybody has to do this I think what you can do is that during the AO meetings there have been subjects that have been shared so we can share the problem and then they to figure out what's best for them but you can't come up with one way of doing it you can just talk about the the the the topic and then each agency has to figure out what works for them you can't come up with one there are legitimate disagreements and how to ex exactly exactly how to how to put it forth and also not everybody not all the organizations are are members of AKO in any event so that doesn't work completely does the star oversee the kis of the shes in Baltimore or are they considered other words if there is a if there's a Sho I guess running in yeah well the rule I can answer very quickly Ran's rule is even at his own Sho good in order not to pick and choose why you over here yeah and over there not across the board whether it's an orthodox or conservative reform anything that we where we go to with the Caterers everyone is treated in the same way we caser there we we treat the the the or the sinks the ovens everything is not Kosher in a sense and we everything is treated exactly as if it's a non-star thing only thing that we do where there are exceptions is for example we do have sometimes one caterer did a shabas Kish and then that night we have an event with another caterer if we so that always we we we make sure between the two Caterers that the kitchen is controlled and this way we have to recer and all that type of stuff I think his question is do we oversee no um do we oversee all the kous of the of the shs and the answer is we have only only if we are asked to to be involved at a specific event we don't have a sh mean the sh can can the rabbi of the Sho certainly has the right if he feels he makes he he prepares an event according to his guidelines we have no Sho that's 247365 on the star kit no mean responsibility Rabbi the has the PRI to do with what I just wanted to end with that Russian story just again to emphasize besides the driving part of of Jewish workers again I'm telling you it becomes very complicated very difficult to to work with uh on shabas and Y to work with non shabas people and and again we a mash again the whole point of today is trying to stress the need for Mash what I'm Mash watching to make sure that they're even if they didn't violate the driving issue that they're doing everything appropriately things happen in a second think how it works in your another common problem besides that mirum so take that that comes compounded if the if the vendor tells it to a non a non-religious Jew to do something that becomes worse or let's take things like another area that becomes uh um you know easily things like berer there are specific things the buer is going on all the time on chabas when stuff is being taken out when stuff is being put together when stuff is being displayed ber is believe it or not I think another one that is very very much overlooked in in in general in the in the in the uh event business would they sometimes turn on the oven because they will take grapes give be grapes put the put the fruit platter together That's a classic example okay and they stop picking through it they're not going to put out grapes that don't look good their whole job there is to take it apart and to start making sure that it's displayed right what who is looking and to make sure even when it's under the agencies to make sure that these non-religious people um it's better enough forget the G the non-religious workers are they're they're violating berer all the time I've seen it with my own eyes by violing but or or the vendor uh being over on on on things that have to do with bishell of putting hot chant back on top of cold cholent and and and things like that without doing cliche they're just not thinking they're just thinking to gain the food out that's all they're thinking about let's get this food out it seems that some one of the participants having trouble with the uh with the connection usually that's a problem on on your end because uh our our system seems to be fine um uh you can you can always dial in if you have a problem at 218 89512 3 218 8951 1203 password 2020 and people will do that and and listen on the phone um you mind if I just add one more thing before we take another question before I forget only because I'm I'll be I'm getting older already um um another big one that even the agencies have to deal with this all the time and and you were right that everyone has their different standard and guidelines is H another preparation from shabas or Y for after shabas Y A lot of these events extend the it's not just the chabas Mitzvah and then they have a malav Mak for the family at night time and the Caterers are itching to get the thing rolling and they've come up with a lot ofum which I can only tell you that ra I can't think of one of the I've ever heard especially the ones that are used in the pesak hotels in order to be able to just for example set up uh for for for uh 800 people they set up the um on the first day for the second night of seder that's a very good example and they come up with some heter for the children even though they only have 50 children they set up for 800 people and uh k for but whatever it is that's just I'm not giving what the answer is I'm only bringing that presenting to you H from chabas or to shabas is a major major problem major problem I've seen people prepare Foods on chabas for after y we've caught them preparing on chabas for y because they they don't want to wait they want the stuff ready and they somehow try to make it sound like they needed it for shabas I've always suggested to the the best way to avoid that is to use every caterer has a a menu that they work off of for every event uh Friday night read your menu and work backwards if there's no tuna fish on the menu for the afternoon and somebody's making tuna fish I guarantee you that's being made for the for M shabas or for Sunday and anytime that's occurred I do what kazal always say the whatever you gained is what you lost it's a very simple I don't I don't throw the tuna fish out for example when I did have that story with tuna fish it wasn't thrown in the garbage I said but you're going to do it the way you should have done it that tuna fish will be served a different day now go do it the right way M now start making a brand new tuna fish the way you should have done it to begin with so that really answers I think touches on this question that Jay wander has do these examples of Bora and H make it tra for others to eat generally not generally not really the example where it might might if it's cooked but still we don't you don't want to be involved in a situation where there are these uh violations of shabas going on you want it to be done properly not just that well if it was done it would be permitted um the same person had a had a comment before that it's easy for the public to become cynical when there are political disagreements between different K organizations it's hard to believe that only one organization is reliable and others don't know what they are doing we're not saying that we're not saying that I mean I'm not sure why you got that impression there is definitely a a a a a range of opinions uh but these are things that every agency has to has to deal with and and the individual has to but I'd like to add something because I always hear this comment made I must tell you that personally like like myself Robert Goldberg we work in this business a long time realize that we take this very seriously and we really really I I sometimes find it um almost ridicule when I hear comments like that ah it's just political you know it's and it honestly it it it to me personally it undermines and makes it feel a little bit like here I work hard to make sure that it's done right and you you just poo poo it away but making it sound like it's just all political it's not all political people but we all of us who are listening to this program I mean I don't know what the problem is just open up any gamar and you have between B and B sh and all the T the fact that there are disagreements doesn't make it that it's it's political rhinaman who's the head of the star k has a right he is the one that we're trusting those who want to use star k he sets the standard in his his based on his understanding of h u another heure OU CRC okay it's not just figment of their imagination they have their standards and just because we don't necessarily agree that doesn't mean that it's that it's has no value it doesn't mean that it's it's something that it's meaningless and it's just a bunch of politics they have their is based on their R and this is I don't know what the problem with that is you you people want to star k because you want to trust ra hman standards you want someone else's good M go accept the other person but just the fact that I don't think that there's a Tina on that there has to be one universal code that all and basically there should be just one on the whole world are entitled to whatever and whatever sheas they have the the national ashas are entitled to their particular obviously there's some commonality but whatever peculiarity that let say imagine Rabbi Schwarz who the Dian of the bezon for the CRC would say I permit this or I don't allow this or Hinman does allow this or does so what okay that's that's that's reasonable that's acceptable okay let's just take some of the the last questions before we end RAB kurvi yeah um uh I know the star policy is that the caterer cannot set up tables on chabas for after after shabas assuming there is no is shabas what is wrong in doing so I'm not sure I understand this question he just want to know why is the why I'm assuming he's asking why is RA Mo on it because others allow it he's correct other other do allow them to set up so let me let me explain a Jewish cater yes okay through going so let me just explain to you where the difference here here's a classic example where of hman has his opinion and others have a different opinion refan is the opinion very simply that it's all fine and dandy um in the concept what others use where they use this this is a very big concept that is used to to mon many things it's called that that the go are doing it on their own accord for their convenience for their thing it sounds all Kosher for yosher Imagine again the great example is the PES hotels and that they somehow they say they're setting up tables for their convenience so this way they don't have to do it after shs it sounds good on paper but the reality is not that way and you could go speak to any masim who have worked in these hotels on PES or and they will I will tell you I guarantee you that every Mash who has done this will Echo what I'm about to say it doesn't go like that the vendors specifically no waiter no person putting out Forks knows what to do they don't know how many Forks to put on this table and what to do over here and how should I do this and how many tables should I set up it doesn't it is no I'll give you a good example of D if I go right now when we have an event at the high hotel and I tell a guy listen take this food up to the third floor and that's all I said he will I not even thinking he'll push the button on the elevator go on the elevator take it up to the third floor he could go by steps but I don't have to say nothing he'll do it on his own but when it comes to the example I gave you of all this setup that you're referring to that is being done on chabas for after shabas no one does anything till somebody says do this do that they have papers in front of them Maria you forgot to do this Maria you forgot to do that and unfortunately again most often it is a Jewish person doing it a sh shabas person doing it and so you're saying that theoretically that concept of setting up on chabas afterward could have some basis but it doesn't work it doesn't work practically in the Practical world it's all our good point everyone's telling them what to do precisely what to do how to do it and if they did it wrong they'll go back to them and say redo it cuz you didn't do it right do we have rules for running a shabus event properly that's documented that we can send it out to people is it something all I can send out to you is a mash we do have mash manual that outlines the uh the basic uh parameters of our shabas rules and again um I can't give you every specific story every specific case right we'll try to put something together um RCC announced that pre-washed Roma lettuce does not need to be washed or checked for bugs of star go with that no we must definitely do not we do not we do not we don't agree with that assessment if that was there if that's we are still checking we are still checking we're still check no we we we will we will use wash remain but check it as we're as if it's never been washed right or if it's certified unless it's of course right okay um and let's take a couple more here could one set up for Friday night for on on Friday night for shabas day yes um is there any question my questions are being skipped I didn't I we're trying to to get to all the questions okay AE says great webinar I'm very happy to hear the star k follows the highest standards of K being reasonable yank manual downloadable it's not right now and I'm not sure it's really I'm not really sure it's it's written for no it is I I don't share the manual with individuals if any ra agency would like to get it you know they're entitled to see it and that but I just don't give it up H we'll see if we have anything that we could make available I want to mention as we close R Cel that um our our this webinar is held the last Wednesday of every month at noon same uh same station same uh website learn kosher doclick webinar.com koser our next uh webinar though will be a special series a fifth webinar in a series on H Bros with RAB Heber that that uh we'll send out the the information about the timing of that that you may want to know for porm because he's going to discuss uh wines what when when what kind of BR sometimes you need to make more than one BR on wine you make Ain sometimes you make a to you go to a better wine that's something that people tend to do on puim also the the laws of what happens if you go from one house to another you're eating in your own house and then you want to go over to your neighbor of course who buys a pre-checked lettuce right of course hopefully and you want to enjoy the POR meal over there do you have to make another BR all that will be discussed uh in our pre porum uh discussion so do you have anything you want to close I just want I just wanted to add one more example and then we'll close the last comment and that is another classic one is this is by all theas this is classic um you should know even my own uh where I was at at this particular event in B Park um people bringing stuff in and have no restrictions whatsoever they're all H you mention they're bringing in their Halas their cakes they made at home not even bought made at home and that's acceptable on the same plates same Forks at starcade it's it's it's unheard of and we've had many stories of Bobby making their own and uh and they wanted to bring it to a at a restaurant and again that's just another example why you need a Mas sometimes or to know the standards because um again not necessarily because it's sh shabas catering or automatically does it meet um all the the requirements so I want you to think about it I mean realize everything we've been discussing today think about what is it like to have the same person being the caterer the vendor being the person who is the uh the one who is basically the ra maker also playing the Hat of the mash at the same time trying to get his or his event being done correctly while the stuff is being prepared in the kitchen and he's supposed to you know it's sh what could be wrong okay thank you re kurzel thank you I'm sorry we could not get to all the questions you're more than welcome to email us at info stark. org I want to thank Ellie rler for his help debie Rosenstein for her help and we look forward to your joining us at the next webinar thanks very much have a great day