01-30-2014 STAR-K Discusses Pesach Hotels

R May kurzfeld is joining us again thank you RAB Kurtz for coming no problem sh everybody's listening and uh we are here every month the last Wednesday of the month at noon and our headquarters in Baltimore Maryland the number that uh if you want to dial in and listen by phone is 218 1203 again 21889 51203 passcode 2020 and if you are coming in by through the web the the address is learn kosher doclick webinar.com kosher uh these classes are recorded and archived at kosher classes. org also on our YouTube channel how you can search for Stark next month we want to announce again we're having a special edition of this webinar a multimedia addition and checking your uh uh produce for insects at same same same time of month the last Wednesday of the month February 26th at noon the the address is a little bit different it's a special address uh it's torah. click webinar.com bugs again torah. click webinar.com bugs the same phone number but we recommend that you come in by web because you want to see the whole idea is to be able to see what you're what you're talking about is just uh discussing it it loses some of the um some of the effect um today we're going to discuss uh hotels for Passover and the catchy title that was sent out was no or no you have to know what you're doing or else uh give a a no to the to the hotel you go before you go right so a as a disclaimer uh we are not discussing specific hotels we're not uh ready or are able to answer the questions well I have is a specific hotel in Spain or Costa Rica or in Canada or in Alaska or wherever the hotels are um I I was looking in preparation I was looking around I saw there advertised I counted 85 hotels the only place I didn't see was in Egypt in MIT there's still not going down to MIT that's we already left we already left right so we came out of there that's about the only place that I could see as they don't have a PES Hotel so we're not uh we're not talking about specific place or rabbis or certifying agencies that's not our job just giving you General General uh uh information what to ask what to look at and to that end our chat today we we welcome uh your your chat and your input and your questions we're excited excited about that and we to it but it's moderated that means we don't want to get into any specific hotels or rabbis so we're moderating it and our tech support uh Rabbi Ellie rler will allow the questions through uh just to make sure that there's nothing specific we don't want to impune any other agency or hotel um another another uh um disclaimer is that by having this webinar doesn't mean we're recommending that people go away for PES uh I I don't go away and you know home at home with the children is is is uh a very effective way of having a a Passover seder uh but it is appropriate for some people we can't know for sure there are people who have to go away you can't be be Al at home they can't make PES they need to go away they want to go away we're not coming down on that side of the coin that's something an individual decision that you could discuss with your family and your your own personal rabbis whether or not it's appropriate to go away we're not we're not uh we're not here to discuss that we're we're discussing what's our expertise which is the kis angle of it and uh and what you need to look into before you make that that decision um if you could just chat with us if you do hear us because sometimes there are some glitches in the system so if you do hear us please give us a chat to let us know that you are that everything is working well and uh we appreciate that okay we have Rick Josh okay thank you so let's start RAB kurzel let's Jump Right In uh first of all where are you going for PES no I am going for you go to to the P to the Stark Stark I think the star k uh P up program but this is not an it's not an ad for them right it's not an ad for them specifically no but it's not the idea I don't think that it could handle all the all the uh it's it's it's a good program but it's a smaller program 130 people this right so uh we're not we're not trying to push it although we're happy if you go uh the that we know is good that we we uh that we know personally okay now uh so let's discuss what's the what's the first thing you see I I I took out some of the ads kurel um you know the ads for PES programs all over the uh all over the um the uh the magazines and the internet and uh you Noti this and I know there something different about the ads nowadays than used to be what you know about the this and this difference yeah so you want to mention that no I'm just saying you just it's interesting that uh I've been involved with the star C for 30 years already and to see the how things have have changed over the years in the ads the quality of the ads what they're offering as far as the PES programming but one thing that was very startling to both R Goldberg and myself is that years ago it was very evident self-evident who's hash wasn't it was part and parcel of the ad itself it was very primary to the ad to um to that people should know what is and now it seems to be just simply it says under rical supervision strict strict robal supervision and it says of course is and then it lists all the wonderful activities that you're going to have with your GL kosher and K and event and whether it's non gabr or whether it's gab so why do they leave out the the the cerification I mean you would think that that would be the first the first draw yeah I'm sure you must have some thoughts about that okay well part of it is a practical thing because sometimes I know many of the people that are listening have maybe possibly actually have gone through this where originally initially they're told was going to be Rabbi so and so and something occurs and it changes in the middle to another Rabbi so and so forth for whatever reason is not exactly uh clearly stated what what made the change or sometimes the actual could Rabbi couldn't make it couldn't make it RAB wasn't happy or wasn't happy which has happen from that we know from experience RAB was not happy with what he was seeing and that got altered which again the client the guest never finds out about another um thing that happens sometimes believe it or not is that um the program actually does not happen and they actually because they don't have enough numbers they will combine with another program and move people another programs even though initially it might started with Rabbi so and so it doesn't actually occur that we move to a different property and that will be a different re 5 that advertised how many you have any idea how many actually happen every year no I don't I don't have any numbers I can't say and I and I wonder again there's only just the speculation I wonder how many of it is actually again I don't know if this is true or not this is just all speculation then it's not as important as it used to be years ago that maybe the consumer just simply wants to see that it's under retical supervision and they're not necessarily so um uh interested in finding out who that person is not everybody some do I I I I I I second your assessment I think that there is some sense that that's not the main thing that's like secondary first we want to know um accommodations accomodations the swimming the lavish Buffet the mat the balcony with the view right the the the you know the fridge the safe elevators I want well I want to know everything's going to be there then you know I'll find out who the certification is it seems to you get that sense right AB get that absolutely that's not a good thing that's what I that's what I feel that's what I feel okay so well okay so let's say to find out who that find out who the certification is and and make sure that that's the one that's going to be actually you know you don't want a last minute change right so you know you should I guess it must be a way of Contracting with the with the hotel that I'm coming because you're telling me that this certification if it changes then uh also but also I want to elaborate when you ask is again most people the the rec consumer is not always equipped to know whether this Rabbi is is is a good Rabbi or not so really you find out whether somebody who does this year round and it's someone what is their what is this person's reputation now again how's the consumer going to know if this one if this Rabbi that you never actually speak to the rabbi whether it is someone with reputation you always have to know someone that you trust you're the rub of your Sho because the star does that we might not speak to a consumer and necessarily divulge everything that we feel but we feel that Rabon of schs and of certain situations need to know and need to be equipped in order to answer their constituents and their congregants precisely what so therefore we are very selective and very careful to whom we speak to and sometimes we'll speak confidentially if you're asking us what we think about this particular person so you're saying that the individual consumer he calls up the caterer or the the one who's arranging right and he says okay who's certifying it he gets a name what does he do with that name he calls his own Rabbi and his Rabbi says let me find out let me find out either he knows or let me find out okay and what is what is the rabbi looking into what are the things that are are the issues that that specifically for a PES hotel that they need to be uhing yeah what is what well let's talk about what is yeah what are the issues okay well first of the general PES I just want to add there are also some other uh well-known uh agencies and individuals that have been accepted also uh you can find that information about uh about The credibility of certain rabbis and some agencies you know our other agencies have have have actually online in apps or online have taken on the responsibility of uh vetting certain rabbis find out from their research whether they're universally accepted or not so that's another place for consumers to go that's a place to start but because you find their name somewhere online and approved list doesn't mean that they can do a hotel for P I just wanted to mention that okay so what is some of the issues that are why what on the scale of things running a PES of Hotel say some zero to 100 is how difficult okay it's very difficult it's a 10 maybe 10 out of 100 10 no 10 out of 10 out of 100 it's 101 I see 10 out of 10 I've done many PES hotels since I've been working for the Stark in many venues from Mexico um five times and in the United States and they're always the same issues and the issue is the lead time that you're given to get the the uh the facility cleaned to get the kitchen cleaned realize it think of how long it takes you as a consumer those who are staying home to get just simple Kitchen in their home with no fancy schmancy equipment just simple ovens and and countertops with uh with with sink imagine what it is at a hotel takes days weeks take days literally it does does take days and to get it clean enough to our specs when you're dealing with with things that I must tell you that are not always as clean as you would like it to be even year round they're not always as clean with at the same time they're trying to still figure out no Hotel will shut down completely for four or five days giving you the opportunity to toh take this place because they lose all that money from from they usually there's a lot of other activities going on around you there's tra still going on and uh we're trying to work within that framework and um you're depending on them and the one thing I've always said to management is realize that regardless of whatever we do in the next couple of days Passover is coming there is no there is no tomorrow there is no we we're going to push it off another day we've got to get everything done on schedule so that is a very vital thing that consumers should know I I I would venture that you ask I'm curious that work and what are the challenges of well that's no different than having let's say right now OU OU is on many different packages of products RK we have individuals taking care of the account so what happens he he he arranges for he arranges for someone who he's trusting of course he's not going to be there obviously no he he can't be in five places at one time so when you have an individual Rabbi just like the U of star k he himself is you have to trust him if he's a he's known has a good reputation that he himself is picking people who are knowledgeable in the business would you want to know who that person is going to be at the hotel running it definitely you would want to know who that is that is more important than the rabbi himself because a person who's actually running the event like I do at my hotel obviously you know the rub is not there all the time so some competent when when when Mix-Ups happens when issues occur things happen whether it's pesak related y related shabas related that manyas come up not just P regular so this this is very important you're saying not only should I find out who the rabbi is and whether or not he's reliable but who is actually going to be on the ground on on site site and and um and then we talked about this a little bit the question is really is the rabbi who's overall certifying just giving over the Reigns to the rabbi who's going to be there that's not really what you're looking for correct you're looking for somebody who's taking responsib respons set policy policy like like like the major agency would do they would make sure if you go to a hotel that's certified by a major agency expect that their policies are going to be implemented not that who's ever there you know it's he'll decide he'll decide what he don't expect so with the with the with with the rabbi who's certifying you want to know that the rabbi is going to be on site right is following the standard that's set up by the by by the correct the ra by the the head Rabbi correct okay that's that's an important Point are there questions we're happy to to take your questions if you want you can chat with us um is is the moderat chat going okay fine there are a few questions let me see oh here we are okay um okay uh Stark Tech says you can see Rob by crystals are on Hotel kis at he gives you the link um and that's an article about different the challenges that come up certifying Hotel the year it's not simple at all I also have another article that uh that that on it's called um it's called also about hotels uh Travelers guide to hotels that's from a consumer perspective but what you need to be aware of when you go to a hotel again not specifically for uh Passover what is the proper forum for asking about specific programs hash David asks not sure what he means the proper forum meaning who should you ask when you when you book meaning when you book before you book before you book to ask the person who you said it's under strict rical supervision that who who's who's the and if you're not familiar with the find out then simply you have to go about you know the process of researching it you feel and honestly we do get calls sometimes individuals that have do known personally but again I'm very cautious because there are certain things that sometimes you have to give it over to someone who knows how to deal with it delicately and inappropriately it should be constructive not a destructive way of doing something well that's the you know the good thing about is is that this is the secret that every consumer should have someone on the inside in the social World someone that he trusts who's sort of can give him the inside information if you could develop that relationship that would be great has a a tongue and cheek comment supervised by the K the kosher enough koser so it's good enough you know it's just uh okay um J uh B is asking why is it necessary to ask all these questions I guess they're asking why can I just rely on on on the agency mean how do you want to answer well the answer is very simple unfortunately this is not just a PES off question this is a year round question they're right now to my knowledge somewhere in the close to 18 00 hashas in the world it's it's over 1600 it's it's that neighborhood of 1700 or so has in the world and if you think about it most people have maybe are familiar with and the reason is is because as a star k throughout its history has had to there is no product in the world that is being made with whether it's an OU product starkk okay only exclusively with with uh with the with that agency sees oversight and and you know what do you call looking it over and and uh and supervision therefore we have to depend on each other there's an inter interaction between agencies so we have to do research ourselves so you have to go through that you know getting back to this is a yearr round question that automatically just because it has is not guarantee you the quality of the as it has Ash but the quality is not necessarily there and definitely recommend people become educated and and that's really the purpose of all of these all of the the teaching that we do is to help you become educated and and learn more and do it better um is asking what should be done if you see something unacceptable being done on yont and it isn't being corrected can you continue to trust them to eat there depends on what the issue is it's uh if you if you bring it to the attention of the Raba maksh who's there on site and if you're AA if you know how walk is well know sometimes you be mistaken I've had many people who are Yesa come to me or you know and I must tell you they might know theoretics certain things but we have practical knowledge we're in the field of K Andis and hus kashing or Bish or anything like that um sometimes you know once I explain to them why we do it the way we do it they realize that oh I maybe I thought that it's not a pro find out that you know that that that that that refinment does permit it based on whatever s it may be the simple answer to this question really depends on how bad it is what he find something that's so terrible uh which is unlikely I think that it's so bad that it could be make make the food really and you shouldn't eat it that's unusual case but then you wouldn't be able to eat but if it's not that bad then um you can continue to to you know it's sort of you sort of kind of stuck when you're there I mean you have to uh have to have to make an assessment you have to makeas in your hotel room before PES so that's one of the things we wanted to cover the answer is yes you should makea without a br we say um because they they do some cleaning in the in the hotel they don't do a Bika but they don't go room to room the maids the maids check it it's not likely that you'll find anything but you have a story we had a story ourselves that in that uh that uh um I know of a situation where on pesak one of the guests found an old Donut in one of the drawers and it was not cleaned out so again those those who are listening should know that that no hea that I'm aware of actually goes to every room and does a bedika know they only have it cleaned in the general cleaning that that donut was Kos not really not at all okay and and the and um and therefore really you as the consumer when you go go to these hotels you're to do your own when you get there right but we say without because it was clean somewhat it clean correct um let's talk about the question that we put out about the the ads that say you know GL kosher all that what is all that let's let's let's focus a little bit on that is that enough I mean what what does that mean and is that it's just today it's a today it's the catchphrase Everything is Everything is glus and but you can go on things that are you know glad koser one of the big cases I give up was cruises and um and really everything else around it is not necessarily as it appears it doesn't have so it doesn't have anything to do with the quality of the certification of the certification as aah maybe they're buying certain foods what is we have that question what does that meaning what is that what is that referring to not just in in in a nutshell I want to say r is is a is a practicing he's qualified and so you could talk about that I know means is that it's it's a nothing more nothing less it has nothing to do with anything about the quality of the or just that there's an expectation it's mention that that means that they they're more and more more you know more careful that's the attitude I must tell you that mentioned that I deal with over the years who are qualified in their things so it's not necessarily one is not a given to the other it doesn't you're or your sh makes you into a dentist you know you have to actually go learn Dentistry so because you're sh doesn't make you necessarily into a very good okay so they should discount when they see that that glad kosher and that doesn't really mean anything okay it doesn't I'm not saying it doesn't mean anything it means the foods that they're buying on certain right it does mean something what about when it says sh mat only you know is that it means something in the sense that usually I have to tell you that usually someone is only offering sh mat and non gab usually will be a more which means more of a of a of a fmer type of of of of crowd because because if they're if they're being particular not to serve gabro and and no and not to serve any Machin matah things like that that means you're the the people that are coming demand that they demand ngab they demand only mat usually going to find a more or you know more from type of of crowd and so with with the matah should the person um ask which matzas are being served is that should he go to that level we would right it's a person in his home right when he goes out to buy matah he doesn't go buy any matah he finds out from his Rabbi or whatever which are the acceptable Matas and those are the ones that he uses he doesn't just use any brand so why if he's just going to a hotel should it be any different right you should really want to know what brand of Mattis am I going to be correct so I mean yes and uh I'm telling you but Derek CL I explained to you before that's pretty much consistent that way if they're serving machine matzas if they're serving G Brook it's a more of a the whole thing is a little you get you get a sense of get a sense who's going to be there who's going to be there right it doesn't tell you the level of of um okay let's take some of the questions here um what what should we know about how large boilers are cered for PES at hotels is that really the pro that's not really one of the major issues that you need how how do they how did they cauer the boilers which boilers is he referring to where I guess he means the kettles the kettles I guess okay I'm not going to go right now into just no but that's not is that really one of the is that a major it's not a major difficulty if they're if they're a competent Rabbi they know how to c c you have you have to know how to cerer the individual consumer doesn't have to be worried so much that it wasn't if it's if it's a competent Rabbi then you figure that he he's done it correctly okay can you speak a bit about the issue surrounding the question of serving serving quinoa at these programs do you know what was behind the O's recent change in policy of consumption of kinw during P we can we can definitely not speak to the u's change that you'll have to go why they Chang their um I can tell you that um that uh that's part of my department it's the quinoa Department over here and we are uh the quinoa Market this year was very difficult just I'm not going to speak about for long for length but just it was very difficult because the prices went up the the market went through the roof the the availability was very difficult but we did finalize a um a a a source of um of Passover quinoa um of retail Passover quinoa at settin farms this is the first announcement right because it just happened yesterday it happened yesterday at settin Farm well for our listeners we give them the uh you have the the scoop right the scoop at set far set Farms it's it's a famous um they pack in these little um consumer packs consumer packs plastic containers um and they're going to have the star KP and um yes at our hotels we do serve right they do and I do want to add that you know just to say the facts that Rahim in the r was the first r that I'm aware of like 15 years I've been here 30 years was the first one that who came out with that that quinoa is allowed to be used on PES off and I remember it was in the beginning there was a tremendous resistance to it right because it it is that type of M that resembles rice and the sense the way it reacts and the way everything there was a tremendous resistance to that pck now we take it for granted but I remember when it first came out it was it was a major major big big uh big talk about it hman kept pushing it and now it's now even though you I don't think you can almost uh find a hotel that doesn't serve right it's standard now standard yeah the rub was the first one that that that that pin that right behind was I want to add take another question it's something very important I want just the the consumers to know about when when I say about making sure that you pick a Raa Mak that first of all is qualify competent and universally known throughout the year not just for this one little seven days he's known to be a Bucky in an expert in in the uh uh running of hotels and the kering and Cas and casers in general because let me tell you one of the things that I this is one of my personal things that I always lecture on that bothers me personally is that I know what we go through in the training of masim just for the yearr round business it takes time to train Mas in the en weekly policies the shabas policies the what they need to know for shabas remember there's no phone for but one of the most sensitive things is and and it takes time it's not something you can read in a book and that is Buck checking and I know what I go through for checking bugs just for 130 people and I know there are properties that are 600 700,00 1,600 people and one of my biggest questions I always ask my colleagues in the ronam is how do you take B it's always a b they don't want to pay for married people because it takes too much you know many they don't want to hire Mash who's married right then it his wife they can put four in one room how do you have a Mas who yesterday was in Yesa learning a of gor and literally the next day he's coming already the next day when they're having to when they having to do with no preparation nothing when I used to take Yeshiva guys from from yiva with me there were either people who work with me all year round to make extra money we had a lot of Iranians who needed the extra money they didn't have their parents here so they would work on shabos and K or I would train them in advance of everything we're going to see and everything they're going to need to know for this particular event now I only take Mas that work with me all year round so that's a given and they know the policies and it's already repetitive right they know the policies they know the policies they know shabis they know they just have to add a little bit for for for PES so therefore you have to really make sure that you find a he who feels the same way good as good as the Mas right there in the field right there moment to moment to moment now this is not something really any person can really find out who is going to be the individual but they have to make that's just a reason to make why you have to make sure it's very reputable right very good um let me just take the time out for a minute and uh remind everybody that you're listening to the star k monthly webinar here at the s offices we're here the last Wednesday of every month at noon at uh at the website learn kosher click webinar.com koser and RAB rley could you put up the the web address for next month's special webinar on February 26 at at uh noon it's going to we're gonna have RAB sham tendler going to go through and show videos and pictures and discuss how you check we're just talking about checking for bugs so you to become an expert because you eat vegetables at home and you want to make sure they're bug free uh it's Torah uh. click webinar.com bugs so we look forward to seeing you then and we're going to send out the emails and if you're on our email list uh feel free that you will get notified about that if you have any further questions after we finish the webinar which we're not done yet but when we finish you can reach us at 4110 or you can email us at info stark. org and we look forward to to speaking with you then okay I just add with the vegetabl the star k offers um actual Hands-On presentations for anyone whoever needs that you can arrange that with the star k that we actually go out either myself or tendler to teach group you know cities and it's people very much appreciate it when they actually see it okay what is the Stark policy regarding hotels which allow mix swimming or non- cautious related activities which viol our policy is that we don't certify hotels that allow mixed swimming because um those that Li in the star would not uh that's ra that we don't certify we we in general our policy is that the star k kosher symbol means that in general the environment is a kosher environment as much as humanly possible you want to make sure that you come there and you have a kosher environment not just that the food is kosher but everything else is whatever and the won't even allow it even if you make available separate swim okay even though you give an option to have separate swimming if there's mixed swimming available there would be no right and the rub also covers not just the swimming but all the entertainment everything that's going on in the hotel that it's that it's that it's you know there's no woman fingers or anything right so that's something not every Rabbi or agency has that policy so you want to know you know you definitely want to look into that what's the story with the with the uh activities um and uh and the a the a is also an issue right the AR around the hotel you want to be able to make sure that you can carry correct you don't stuck in they make a proper a they AR and they know how to do that is there an AR and in um in in in my article I also point out a couple of things um that you also need to be aware of like the electronic locks and doors how do you how do you deal with that we have we do have a way of dealing with that of asking the um the the non-jewish staff to open the door for you and so on but you have to know how how you're going to deal with that with that issue uh the sensors for the for the lights and the heating and air know in some hotels now um if you if you have the air conditioning on or on PES would be air conditioning or heat depend depends where you are depends where you are exactly and depends if it's a leap year or not right so whatever it is if you open the one thing is if you open the uh door to the balcony to save energy they they're going off and then when you close it it's going on obviously you can't you're not allowed to do that is that is that something that the that the rabbi who's running the hotel is that something he would be aware of not necessarily is he looking into that that may be something you want to check into uh and and you know and when you open the door sometimes it goes on you know you have to look into these it's interesting here at the star cave if we ever did any of those properties in Mexico I went down there we did five properties in Mexico yes over five years really we did five different properties in in caban Lucas and you know different places and and I would go in advance myself with the with the person who's the the vendor and we'd actually go literally room by room no the whole idea it first of all the RV never allowed most of these places in Mexico the pools are outside so we were never able to take a building that was higher than two three floors so that was the first thing it was higher than two three floors you could see into the pool we would then we of course we have Nas around the pool all the way 12 feet high and I don't want to go whole detail but the main thing was this this concept that Goldberg just mentioned of going in advance and me as the RAB maker not not uh just the vendor and just accepting what he tells me to go down there and analyze make sure that whatever I needed or or requested it's very difficult to do it now when you're right at the 11th hour I mean you come the day before it's too late it's not happening it's not happening and this way I knew exactly what what I'm up against and management knew what what the expectations of the there was there was but before you mention about the checking the ruls I just want to add you also have to find out a lot of these hotels have many kitchens in your in your room so you have to find out most place most do not K as many kit so beware of that also as another item that you need to think the microwaves the mini kitchens the sinks right whatever whatever there something let's say they have a fridge we say that all you have to do is for fridge just to clean it out clean it out but uh you know the microwave and the oven and everything that needs exactly and it may be too late already by the time you're there that's true it may be too late to do some of this cering because you know there's limit and also I looked was what you mentioned before electronic now now all hotels are changing over to electronic bathrooms toilets right it's a big issue we're having that just generally not necessarily PES we're having that issue with the shabas that people are are are renting these places the the the the party people you know the theal Sim the host and the hostess both thought about these electronic bathrooms and this is a major problem now because they're all going that way there no more the manual flushing well a lot of times even if in the public areas they'll have the electronic and in the rooms they will still have the the manual that's true but it's something that you need to know you big problem it's a big problem it's something that not every Rabbi would even if he's normally reliable for kasas that would think about to go look so it's something that you may want to look into you can call the hotel directly and talk to some of these things can you can talk to the hotel directly okay let's let's take some of these questions um if T is star k or the you well I guess he means any of the major agencies shouldn't we be able to rely on it um if you normally rely on those major agencies then I think the answer is yes what obviously you can rely on them now we're talking about when it's not so obvious to you what we're talking about when it's not so obvious right okay usually if a vendor has a star k the OU I promise you they're not going to write in their a under strict ritical supervision they put they'll put they'll put the OU they'll put the star k you're not gonna have someone hiding it that way I understood involves only poultry and involves pulling out the feathers into the sight of the it's not it's not this is not this is not correct and there's it's true what he says it's true what he says that they do that that they do um you know pull out feathers of the neck um which by the Wayman says he's not happy with but let's put that on the side right now but um it's theer is the that I could be pulling out feathers and I may not even though I come from by the way my father's a g one side and my mother's a b your beard is not long and when I used to but um getting back to that uh not enough just what didn't we ever do a webinar didn't we ever didn't we ever do a webinar about about about slaughtering I think we must have are you sure we could do it at one time you yeah okay what is the star opinion about Chia and PES is a kidney or not star k has not taken a position uh on Chia we we um we pushed the the kinoa and that was our that's what we uh we but R behind has not said either way we just haven't taken the position or not um isn't always required on P the answer is no no many not even not even one many many but let me say also let me add it's not the amount of mas from our experience it is the quality of the mash first and it's the way you set it up you can do the same work with four that others are doing with eight Mas it all depends again the quality of the Mas how well they are trained and educated in hash and how much they know from year round and how well you set up the logistics of the whole system between milic fix par and so on and so forth I once had someone call me and ask okay so I want to go away I think it was a cruise or something but how many should I how many I'm gonna find out how many there are how many do there need to be I said I couldn't possibly tell you how many because I don't know what the setup is we don't know how many that's not what's going on what does it look like right there's no number that you could give it's impossible right but would you say let's say a um you what would you be surprised to here let's say there's a hotel program with 300 people what would you be surprised at what number would you be surprised less than less than I I can't imagine a hotel of of 300 doing it with less than five four five it all depends it all depends how big is dep it all depends how far you can have again 300 people but the distance from the kitchen to where the ballroom is is a mile I'm exaggerating of course but the con what I mean he has to walk through the hole the food has got to travel or you can have the kitchen right next to the ballroom and it's and it's easy it all depends again everything depends on the analysis of the facility right of course we can't say for sure what's good right um does starel have kosher and non kosher non kosher kosher for Passover and non- kosher no we said we discussed that before no uh we we don't allow that um okay um why are chickens dirtiest before yam toin is that I never noticed that they are I never noticed that they are I guess elain notic but for some reason if Elaine is noticing it maybe it's because they they have a lot of orders and they have to push it as quickly as possible if it's true I don't know if it is true what is dir you mean anyway feathers I don't know she said full of feathers maybe maybe she maybe she can send back a message what she means by Dirty uhhuh okay all right RAB cell we I think we um we covered uh basically all the things that we were trying to cover yeah um I think we gave I think a person now if they're going away for Passover uh has a good idea better idea at least of what they need to into correct things that they need to to talk about and think about again we repeat the disclaimer that we're not pushing anybody to go or not to go uh one thing I will say though I do want to make an editorial comment and that is a lot of time you see names of rabbis or reiton on on the Ed who are going to that hotel so Scotland residence so you say to yourself well if Rabbi so and so is going then a the kosher must be okay corre and B it must be all right you know to go to this hotel and uh I think that a is incorrect that the rabbi who's going there you know simply PA right so so the rabbis who are going re the Ritson not that they're compromising themselves but you have to understand they work very hard all year they don't get paid much and now they have an offer to go away to a hotel for for h for Passover all expenses paid and um and for the family they go for you know the family there's a big pressure to go for you for for your wife for your kids uh who may not see you all all PES this is a little bit of a perk so their decision to go doesn't necessarily mean that that's an endorsement that everybody should go do I do PES programming myself and I can't you know say anything bad about it because I benefit from it myself my family comes matter of fact I got the biggest benefit I got is that my daughter met her husband there oh really so yes that's great in one of the P hotels so therefore I can't complain I have benefit you know as far as that's concerned and it does give me I work hard like I said again all in all it is a difficult thing even year round to do hotels as you'll read the articles it's very difficult to do hotels and K and and definitely when you come to PES hotels and therefore it behooves you and us everyone to find a good Ash that knows how to properly set up hotels and to run the hotels the Casher properly clean it Casher properly run it you know throughout the whole program and that the management is well also well educated management makes a bigger difference and management should be well also informed in advance what they're going to expect and how we make sure that your workers because they play a big role if the employees are not well trained in pesak and kasas it's not going to work work I don't care how many you can't keep running around after each worker so we have a we by us also do the same thing bring all the waiters Chef everybody together to have a clear understanding of what is going to be happening so so is that something a person could look into whether or not the management that when running the program is a reliable person how do you look into that I don't know I'm just telling you the facts again getting back to the raksh it's you it's really in his hands to make sure that all this is done properly in the training of the masim and the training of the hotel staff that they they should um be well informed the better they informed they are the more smoother the cautious is going to be okay it's very well said um elain answered back about the feathers yeah and I answer again if that's true that she's finding more feathers and the and the eat sides are not cleaned appropriately Elaine I have no other answer that maybe they're simply the orders are numerous and they're pushing it the machine a a little faster I don't I don't know that's just a speculation I don't know okay I do want to mention here at the end that we can see on the map all the people join us we have number of people in Israel in Artis um uh we have Canada we have the West Coast uh we have east coast so we want to thank everyone for joining us again this webinar will be um will be uh archived it's it's been recorded and it's archived at kosher class.org uh or on our YouTube uh Channel hopefully soon enough and you can find it there we look forward to seeing you next month last Wednesday for our special bug webinar bug checking webinar and c I think it was very informative thank you very much much I appreciate thank you very much for joining us thank you for joining us we want to wish you all a happy and kosher porm and then and pass thank you very much take care