Co-Parenting with a Toxic Parent: What Do You Do?

Hi, Rabbi. How are you? >> Bar Hashem, I'm very good. How are you doing? >> Good. Bar Hashem, thanks for taking my call. >> My pleasure. My pleasure. Okay. So, what are we talking about tonight? I don't even know. >> Okay. Um, I have a question for you. >> Okay. How does one deal with co-parenting with a parent who does not care about the child's well-being and is doing the opposite for the child. >> Okay. So, I'm going to be uh very forthright with you here. I'm going to skip all the nicities. First of all, I want to validate that I believe what you're saying, but I also need to give push back. Okay? So, I I I it's not nice to start right away with push back, but I I think it's just going to be helpful. Okay? And and I my point here is to be helpful. Um so here here's my push back. You made a statement. This is a very sweeping statement, a very strong statement that the co-parent not only does not care about the child's welfare or well-being, but quite the opposite, which the opposite of that would not only be they don't care, it would be like they have some a vested interest in, god forbid, undermining the child's well-being. So, that's a very strong statement. I'm not telling you I don't believe you, but I want to push back against that be just because >> it's so exceedingly rare. It's not unknown, but it is exceedingly rare for a parent, even a parent who's not particularly um emotionally well. It is so ex exceedingly rare for a parent to actually purposely willfully undermine a child's well-being. So, can I push back a little bit and let's kind of figure out where where the truth is because it it'll it'll just be more helpful for you in navigating this. Sure. >> Okay. So, do you want to adjust this statement or do you want to double down on it and and back it up or help me understand it? What What do you mean? The co-parent doesn't Yeah. Okay. >> Um, I can go with an example if that will >> Okay. Yeah, sure. That >> you Okay. My daughter came to me with a concern. That is a big concern. And when I addressed it with her father, he denied it and is denying help for the child. >> Okay. And I'm assuming in this situation you're talking about because people can use the term co-parent even for a married couple, but we're talking about you're not married to the correct. >> Okay. To your child's father. Okay. So, your daughter came to you with a concern, >> a general concern or a specific concern about her father, >> a specific concern about something happening in the home. >> In the home, you came to him and said, "Hey, >> she's not okay with that." And he was like, >> "What? >> Well, that that didn't happen." Or, "Yeah, it happened and who cares?" >> You're lying. >> No, you're lying. It's not true. Who's lying? You lying or your daughter's lying? >> It was told to both of us that we're lying. >> You're both lying. Didn't happen. >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> It didn't happen. >> Didn't happen. Based on your experience with this person who I mean, you have a child with him, so I assume you know him somewhat. Um, obviously you can't know with 100% certainty, but is this is it consistent with this person's history to gaslight like that? To just flat out deny something that everybody knows is true. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, you believe your daughter and >> Yes, I do. >> Yeah. and you think that her father is just flat out gaslighting, denying. Well, okay, that's a tough one. Okay, so that's essentially your question, but I want to push back and say like this. Remember I said I I I have a hard time accepting the original premise that >> the co-parent Yeah. doesn't care for the child's well-being or even the opposite like actually wants them not to be well. Okay, I want to I'm going to actually still push back against that. And again, for the purpose of being helpful, I want to help you here. And I think because right now if you just say I'm dealing with somebody who doesn't care about their own child and and actually has bad intentions toward their own child, that's like so basically it's it's an insurmountable problem. How do you even deal with that? You don't deal with that. The only way to deal with it is by by not having to deal with it. But I I want to push back and say maybe we could reshape this narrative a little bit um and be a little bit more accurate. How about this? I'm going to throw something against the wall and see if it sticks. Okay? And and I'm going to trust you to guide me >> if there's truth to this or not. I would say like this knowing very very little. I know nothing. I really know nothing. But I'm just, you know, chat gpting it over here and using, you know, like well, you know, how chat gpt it's b it's basically predictive text, you know, like when you do predictive text and okay, that's how chatg it's a language model this predictive text, but it's based on on on patterns. So I've been do, by the way, I've been doing it be long before chat GPT was doing it. Um, it's called pattern recognition and I'm 90% of yeah, I would say 90% right. Um, but that's why I say if I'm if I'm wrong, just tell me. Okay, here's what I'm saying. Based on the tiny tiny specks of information that you've given me, I would like to reframe it like this. Your ex, your child's father, instead of saying he doesn't care about his child's well-being, I would like to reframe it like this and say something a little bit different. There are things that he cares about way more than his own child's well-being to the extent that those things cause him to do things that if he were thinking straight, he himself would be ashamed of and and in fact maybe even is ashamed of, which is why he lies about it. Is that possible? >> Yes. >> Yes. You're agreeing >> it is possible. >> Okay. Is it likely? Meaning to say, let me let me explain what I mean. It's not that he doesn't care about his daughter's wellbeing. It's that he cares about do whatever doing what he feels he needs to do. and if having to compromise in his parenting in order to do what he wants to do, if that's what has to be done, then you know, okay, when push comes to shove, he's going to do what he wants to do. meaning to say I'm trying to say it's not like if he had the option of doing right by his daughter or not doing right by her, he would willfully just pick not doing right by his daughter. He's picking the option of not doing right by his daughter because he's forced to pick that in order to get something else that he wants which is more important to him. Does this make sense what I'm saying? It does. >> Okay. >> I'm still trying to figure out what that is. >> What that is? I I know what it is because it's it's 100% of the time it's always the same thing. It's always safety security. It's basic basic stuff. Safety security. That's always what it is. So, I don't know what dysfunctional behavior he's engaging in which his uh brain has decided symbolizes safety and security to him, but that's why he's doing it. And then you're telling him, well, you can't do that. That's dysfunctional. You can't do that around a child. And you know, he's not prepared to say, you're right. I'm going to stop that thing. Because that would be like saying, you're right. I'm going to forfeit my own safety and security. >> Does that make sense? >> Yes. So, you know, let's say you didn't tell me what the behavior is at all, but let's say it's like an addiction. You know, let's uh let's say it's like, hey, you're using drugs in a house with a child. Well, I didn't do it right in front of her. I did you did it in the next room and she knows that you're doing I'm not saying that's what it is. I'm not saying it's drugs, but like let's pretend that's what it is. So, you know, somebody could say, well, this person doesn't care about their child's well-being. And I would say that's an oversimpl over oversimplification that's not going to serve you well in the process of strategizing what your next move is. I would say go back to the drawing board. Instead of saying this person doesn't care about their child's wellbeing, say this person cares so much about what their brain has been twisted into thinking provides their own well-being that that becomes paramount to the to the extent of of thrusting aside their concern for their child's well-being. Mhm. I hear you. >> So, >> I hear it. >> Is this helpful? Is this kind of making sense? >> It makes sense. It just It's like, how do you deal with someone like that? >> Um, >> when there's a real issue at hand. >> Yeah. So, I mean, can I ask you another question? >> Fair. >> Is this related to what led to the divorce? No. >> Okay. Um, but am I right to say that it's some type of behavior that he feels he needs to do and it's super important to him? >> Yes. >> Yeah. Okay. I'm And by the way, when I say that 100% of the time it's safety and security, um because that's just the way the brain is wired, it's it's I don't like using these terms because a lot of these terms are uh these secular terms are based on uh models that I don't believe in um and which yeah have a have a certain uh lack of of spirituality in them. But for instance, you know the term like the the lizard brain, right? Or lyic system, right? Brain stem. So um yeah, just for a disclaimer and people can decide to not trust me or like me anymore, but the one of the reasons I don't like it is because it's kind of Darwinian. And no, someone asked me once, do you believe in Darwin? I said, of course, the man existed there. I think there are pictures of him, but no, I'm not into the old evolution. Yeah, you could decide that I'm a barbarian and you could stop listening to me and decide that I'm stupid now. But no, I I don't So I'm not when I say like lizard brain, I don't I don't mean like in an evolutionary type of way. But what I do mean is the way that people are wired. And by the way, if I would use the theidic mystical metaphysical terminology, I would say the nepheshunas of Bahamas, the enlivening animal soul. Okay. But at any rate, there's this basic impulse for survival and self-preservation that's always looking for safety and security. Now, it's a funny impulse because it gravitates toward really basic stuff, coarse stuff. It's not interested in abstraction. In fact, it can't even comprehend abstraction. So things like spirituality or even things like morality are completely foreign to it because it just doesn't have the the the ability to to grasp abstraction. What does it grasp? Very physical physical physical things like bodily needs. So basically I'm going to say you know food and sex. So basically what it comes down to is self-medicating or self-numbing behaviors, addictive behaviors. So, it's basically either, you know, like drugs, uh, pornography, something else that's sexually inappropriate, those are the types of behaviors that people get really, really locked in on, and then even though you come to them and be like, "Hey, as a moral person, as a as an adult, as a who's who's charged with caring for a child, don't you know that's wrong? like don't you and it's like well that my thinking brain knows that it's wrong but I'm not in my thinking brain right now because I'm just trying to get safety and security. I'm feeling I'm registering some type of cue to um you know some cue of threat to my survival and um and this is what I have to do to self soo and now you're going to come talk to me about morality. I can't afford to have a discussion about right and wrong over here. I'm trying to survive and that's why like when you're saying like how do you even talk to a person like that and you're expressing that frustration. Yeah. It's the frustration of I'm trying to talk about right and wrong and you're checked out of any ability to speak about such abstract concepts because you are in fight or flight like live or die absolute like you know you you're you're down in that lowest most basic level of impulse and so we can't even have a discussion about morality and when I get called out what am I going to do? I'm going to lie about it. That's so stupid. Why would you lie? But like we all know you're lying. Yeah, but you know what? I can't afford to have this conversation with you. So, what am I going to do? I'm just gonna be impossible and I'm going to stonewall you by lying. I know that you know that I'm lying, but if I can just lie and it it's so exhausting, you'll go away. >> And I know if I lie long enough, you'll just go away. You'll leave me alone. They can go go back to my numbing behavior. Is Is this consistent with reality? I'm chat gpting it over here. Um, yes. Yes. >> Very well said. >> Okay. So, so everything I'm saying is consistent with the actual facts? >> Mhm. >> Okay. Um, does looking at it this way give you any insight about how you may want to deal with it? It gives me a new perspective of how I how I view it, but it still feels impossible to deal with someone like that. >> Yeah. Well, what if we were to introduce some truth? >> What if Well, what if you were to say, "Listen, you can tell me I'm lying. That's okay. Um, I think you know that it's not a lie. And and here's the thing. Um, I don't judge you for this. I really don't judge you. I know that you're doing what you feel that you need to do. Um, but here's the thing. When your daughter is home, you're not going to be able to do that. So, I think you need to make a decision. If this thing is really super important to you, uh, to the to the extent that you're not going to be able to refrain from it when she's with you, then I think you need to think about this, make a choice, maybe it's more important for you for now to do that thing than to have your daughter with you. And could you maybe make that responsible as it would be very selfless of you? It would be very selfless of you. Maybe you'll make that decision that you for right now are choosing your certain behaviors, your certain I don't know if it's a lifestyle, but um because that's important to you and you need that right now, but it's not compatible with having a child in the home. Maybe you can make a selfless decision right now that while you still need to engage in that behavior, you're not going to have her around. Or you could decide you're going to refrain from it when she's around. But who are we kidding? We, you and I both know that that would be too stressful for you. >> And why should you feel stress? I don't want you to feel stressed. >> See, I like it. I like it because it's compassionate and it's honest. >> I love, you know, they there's an expression, brutal honesty. I love gentle honesty. Like, let's be so real. Realer than real, but not in a hurtful way. It's not to the contrary. I'm trying to help you. I know it's too painful for you to act the way you need to act. Like how how long of a stretch is she with him for? >> It's not too long, but >> a couple days. >> I definitely tried that that >> no hours, but >> it doesn't Yeah, but it doesn't that that doesn't work. It doesn't work with him. You've tried the approach of being like, "Listen, I don't need you to admit or deny because I know the truth. And I'm not faulting you and I'm not blaming you. I'm not even judging you. I'm just saying this." >> You can have a conversation with him. >> It's impossible. >> Impossible. Okay. So, >> it doesn't Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. So, he's totally locked in >> the the survival mode. >> Yeah. So, even even more so than I thought because I was imagining he kind of like fades in and out of survival mode and has No, he's always in survival mode. >> No. >> Which is why he's always lying because he says whatever he needs to do to get what he wants. >> Anything any issue that's addressed, you're a liar. It's not true. And then he says conversation over and that's it. >> And it's because it's so effective. >> It doesn't work. It's so effective because he first of all, he knows he's not fooling anybody, but he doesn't care. He's not trying to fool anyone. He's just trying to get you off his back so he can continue doing what he wants to do. And he knows that it's so exhausting to be lied to right to your face like that. So exhausting that eventually you'll just stop talking to him. And that's what he wants. That's his goal. Just make you be quiet. and and and he probably feels probably feels better about that than something like overtly hostile or or or uh violent. You know, if if to get somebody off my back, I'm going to have to scream at them. You know, I'll do it, right? But this is so much more pleasant than screaming at them. I'll just lie at them and lie lie lie in their face until they get tired of talking to me and then they'll just never talk to me again. Good. Problem solved, >> right? But it's it's dealing with that and then dealing with other people a step above him such as therapists or schools, different things that you know, let's say we address an issue and then they he says it's not true. So then it's like you can't get anywhere with anyone, >> right? >> That's that's where the issue is. >> I bet you everyone's super curious what the issue is. You don't have to say if you don't want to, but like what's the thing that he's doing? >> I not going to say it on here just for privacy purposes of my daughter and myself. >> Good. Respect that. Okay. Um, >> thank you. >> And it doesn't matter, by the way. I mean, because we all know the the category of things. It's it, you know, whatever. >> Okay. It's unfortunate because we always want to be able to talk with people and reach some kind of compromise, but he's you're saying he's not he's not capable of that. >> No. >> I mean, it forces you it forces you to then sidestep him. Um, I mean, now now now we get to the domain where you got to call a lawyer basically. I mean, I'm sure you do have a lawyer if you're dealing with this type of situation >> cuz now you're talking about Yeah. Because now you're talking about, you know, I I would wish we could just talk it through, but you're not ready to talk. You don't want to talk. You find it excruciating to talk. So, >> so now, okay, fine. So, there's no conversation. If if there's if there truly is no possibility for a conversation, >> then you're forced to just I I hate to say it because I just I don't like I don't I don't like having to function that way, but there's someone you can't even talk to, then comes a comes a legal matter, >> right? It's not it's not not ideal, but >> that's kind of what you're left with. >> Any Yeah, I can give you a lot of Kuk. First of all, you know, your daughter is learning from you how to deal with difficult situations and she knows that you're taking care of her. She knows that you care about her safety and security. Uh, and she knows that you're able to to deal with it in a calm way even when they're difficult situations. That's important. >> Mhm. >> That's important. You know that she told you something and you believed her and she knows you believe her. That's super important. >> Yeah. >> It is. >> Definitely is. Especially when, you know, I hate to say it this way because it makes it sound like, you know, even when you have a co-parent like this, I'm sure you have zero desire to vilify him in your child's eyes. I would hope so. And if you know, you need any reminder. Yeah. Even when a co-parent is totally dysfunctional, you gain nothing by vilifying that co-parent in your child's eyes. Um, but >> right. >> Yeah. So, you know that. What I will say is in in a especially in a situation where >> you took her word over an adult. That's very powerful as far as you know her feeling of connection to you. >> An adult called her a liar and you know that she's not. So, I would say I'm sorry you have this difficult co-parenting situation, but I would also say I think you have a I think you're doing a pretty great job with your daughter as a as a as a as a mother, as a an adult in her life who provides safety and protection. >> And you're doing it you're doing it under difficult circumstances. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. extremely difficult. >> Listen, I'm sure that many people will gain from I I appreciate your willingness to have this conversation uh in a public forum. I I'm certain that there are people who will gain from this >> because as you know I'm sure you know there are people who deal with similar situations, some you know >> Yes. >> more challenging, some less challenging than yours, but >> I think many people will relate. >> Yeah. And I appreciate you taking the call and the time. >> Of course. Definitely. >> Of course. Certainly. >> Thank you, Rabbi. >> Okay. All right. >> Have a good night. You too. Okay. Be well. All right. One day.