Showering On Yom Tov | Rabbi Anthony Manning | September 17th 2025

Everybody, good morning. >> It's good to see you all. If I could ask you please to sh just turn off your phones so we don't get any uh musical interludes. >> This is our last year uh for a few weeks. Next week as you know is Shalah, please God. Uh the week after that is Yamipa or Yumipa. Um and then it's and then it's so please God five weeks from today we will uh we will start again there is no sh correct you'll still be dancing from so we don't want to stop that I'd like to thank the sponsors for um the entire academic year the sh has sponsored leu nishm braas brandit and zelik ben kalman zona we're very grateful for that sponsorship I'd like to talk about a topical issue which we have not looked at for many many years and I've updated the saw sheet so that you have a completely up-to-date version in front of you which is the issue is issue of showering on yontf. Now we're about to enter into the season because in the next few weeks we have four days of yont two days of rashana and then sukus and of course for our brethren they have six days of yont on which to kind of work out how they're going to shower or not going to shower. Um, of course, we also end up every now and then having a 3-day YONF, what they call quotes from quotes, a three-day. This is going to happen a little bit more, or at least not 3 days, but two days in Israel. A little bit more than usual because if you remember before Pesak, we excitedly announced that Era of Pesak doesn't fall on Shabas for another 20 years. And everybody was very excited about that. But that does mean that Shivus is more likely to fall on a Friday or a Sunday for the next 20 years than normal which gives us another 2 days uh in Israel. So that's something everything has a you know an upside and a downside. So this question will become relevant and will remain relevant. One of the fascinating issues on this particular topic that I find very interesting is it doesn't just deal with halakic issues. Bottom line, can you do this or can you do not do this? But it deals with metaic issues. What do I mean by metahalakic issues? Issues that go to the the question of the methodology of the how do people decide what they decide? What are the factors they bring in Tibet? Um does the change? Does it adapt? Does it evolve? These are metahalaki questions which which come up very much on on this issue which we'll see as we go along. This is also an issue that people seem to be a little bit triggered by in my experience. When you ask certain rabbon if you can take a shower on yonf they get very uh insistent. No, it's completely osa and it seems to be the one of these kind of slippery slope. you know, if you let people take a shower, next by the time you look around, they'll be in the pool and they'll be on this on the beach and and it's kind of a part of a a system that we have to shut down. Other people, if you open the panini hala, he'll say it's it's appropriate. You should take a shower on Jonf if it's a two-day or quotes and quotes three-day yonf. Uh it's something that you should do. Uh so, I need to get a little bit of a handle with you today on why people are saying different things. Also, you you never seem to have two people who get the same answer on this question. I brought you on page one here. Some of the variations you'll come across. For example, some rabbis allow you to just shower the whole body on. Other people say you can shower up to half your body. I I I'll let you work out how to calculate that for yourselves. It might, I suppose, depend on proportions of different kinds. Others allow you to shower the body limb by limb. Others just the face and the feet and the hands. Uh others don't let you shower step into a shower at all. You have to stand by a sink. Some people say you can shower in hot water, some in lukewarm water, some in cold water, and some not at all. And there's a big debate as to what does it mean to have lukewarm water. We'll get to that, too. Some say you can shower in water heated before y, some in uh some that in water that was heated even on yontf and others not at all. Some differentiate between a bath and a shower, others between a private bathroom and a public bathroom, let's say in a dorm. Some make a difference between a one-day yon, a for two-day yans, and a quote unquote three-day. Others do not. Some make a difference between regular boiler systems and ducheves. Others do not. So, this is where this issue becomes a bit more complicated. What I'd like to try and do to with you today is show you the basic framework of why people differ in the way that they differ. And then you can go away and ask your shila and work out what you can or can't do on yonf. But hopefully we look at the there are three separate issues that we have to get clear in our mind. And until you get clarity on these three separate issues, none of this really makes any sense. And it sounds like people sort of all saying different things. Once we get those issues clear, I think it'll all fall into place and we will hopefully take a very complicated topic and make it a bit more understandable. So let's look together. Uh at the beginning, it's relatively easy. You're not allowed to do any at all on Shabbat that we know on Shabbat. So most of what we're going to be talking about today is let's just take the first source very easy. He's talking about here. So the seventh day of PES is also a Shabbat as it were. Sorry, seventh day of of the week. Sorry, we'll get to PES in a second. The seventh day as in Shabas is going to be a Shabas. You may not do any mala etc. We say this for kdesh on shabas you may not do mala that's very straightforward however when it comes to yon and that's I misspoke before this is the uh the issue for for yon in number two um number three excuse me on the first day is a mikesh this is talking about and that's going to be a mikes so in the sense of it is a special day it's a y day and then it says no may be done on any of these days. So, so far it says like Shabas only. There's an exception. You can do what needs to be done so that people can eat that you can do and the wording he uses that which needs to be eaten for all people. I translated it here the way that the raar camp does. What is needed so that everyone will be able to eat. Now we'll have to define what that means nephesh everyone. But there's the basic difference between Shabbat and on Shabas all is prohibited but on there is an exception. Number two I don't need to go into now but as you know one of the on is bishel is cooking. Another one is lighting a flame. But some of them are actually mentioned in the sukim. Many of them are from the oral law. It doesn't really make any difference which it is. But clearly bishel is one of the issues we're going to be looking at today. And the distinctions as I said between shabas and yon. Okay. So what do we know so far? You're allowed to do bishell on yonf if you needed for things you're going to eat. So here we get into the principle which again everybody agrees on. Lisa of look in number four please on the top of page two. I say the following. You are not allowed to heat water. We're talking about here. You're not allowed to heat water on to wash your feet unless it's also drinkable. It has to be not just drinkable but bring down but something you're actually going to drink. Meaning you can put a pot on the fire and you can fill it with water said b shamai and you can use some of that for your tea and the rest of it you're going to use to to wash your feet of people wash their feet a lot obviously in those days because people walked around in sandals dusty etc and b shamai are happy for you to heat water even if there's extra water that's called marbashi rim you're allowed as b shama to have a bigger pot you don't have to have a little pot because at the end of the day you're not doing any more mala action you're just putting a pot on a stove and lighting a flame in a way you can on doesn't matter if there's a little bit or a lot. You're going to use some of it for drinking and some of it for washing your feet, but it has to be there has to be something for drinking. Says theor Torah allows you on to do for eating and not you're not allowed to light a flame and to cook water in order to wash your feet unless you're also using it to make tea etc. and Bil say no it's fine you can heat water specifically and only to wash your feet it doesn't have to be for drinking tea and the garra explains this at length I brought you one line from the bar that summarizes it since heating up the water lighting the flame is permitted for it's allowed even not for the purpose of eating when you need it for some other use on this is the principle of since it's uh because it's allowed for for eating for it's also allowed not for eating. Now that seems a bit strange. The posik said you're allowed to do malika for eating how does basel suddenly come to the uh jump that well since you're allowed to do it for you're allowed to do it not for it seems to be the opposite of what the pix said and the mafia explain this principle of mto in different ways one of those that I found most interesting is an approach that basically talks about the idea that the word this is angel's approach doesn't just mean eating in a means means consuming as Well, and it can even be broader than that. For example, in the zikin, if you if you if an animal damages your crops by chewing on it, that's called in that's called shenm. They're using their teeth and they're damaging your property by eating. Kazal explained that that's not only eating. If the animal rubs against it or brushes it or tramples it, does it for any purpose to help the the animal somehow get some benefit, that's also included within that same category of shen. So too here says bet shami is not just bet excuse me is not just eating but is any enjoyment or benefit from it all falls within the category of some kind of consumption as in there is a debate which I'm not getting into today as to what kind of benefit does that need to be the the garra talks a lot about someone could take a lulv out on yon when there's no aw because according to behel by chama would be a problem right according to behel because you need the lulv it's a need for Ysef. Is that only a a need which is a mitzvah need? What about a need which is a general need? And if you remember back to when we used to live in places with no av. I don't know if you used to live in places with no av. I certainly did. First 32 years of my life. I never really lived in a place where that was an av. And on yans you knew you're allowed to carry but only things that you need for yf etc. And you know go through that. So Ben Hill clearly say that if you're allowed to cook water for um for eating, you're allowed to cook water also for washing. But what did he say? Washing your feet specifically. Well, why only your feet? What about heating up water to wash your whole body? Having a shower, having a bath. Why is there a limitation on feet? What is the issue here? And what's uh what how does that apply today? So there are three separate things we need to think about. The first one I'm going to talk about now on page two is the issue of shave kesh and that's going to be for certainly for Ashkanazim a major major issue. Look with me on source number five please papa. So this gammor in is talking about how far does this of doing mala on yon for other purposes how far does that actually go? So look what he says here. If that's the case, according to Beh, you can expand it from food to other things. Let's ask the qual question. Are you allowed to make a mukmar? A mukmar was where they took it's from the Arabic word for coals or the ancient Arabic word for coals where at the end of the meal if there were kitchen smells in the room, so you would take some coals and you would sprinkle um herbs on the coals to make a beautiful smell so that you would uh take away the nasty food smells in the house. So maybe you can do that on since you're allowed to do burning things in order to to do for eating. So you're allowed to do it not for eating. This is a use. I like the room to smell nice. Am I allowed to sprinkle my herbs on the mugbar on he says to him the following is answering your question. It doesn't say you can do anything you need to eat. It says anything you need to eat. It has to be something which is equal for everybody. Not a mmar. What's a mmar? So a mmar is only for people who are very um what's the word? Finicky or indulgent. Most people are perfectly happy at the end of the meal to wait a few minutes and the food smells clear themselves. They don't need to have incense, you know, sprinkled around the house. It smells for a bit. Okay. A mugmar is only for a small section of the population. It's non what's called d shave coish. Now the mforian explained that co can't mean everybody. Nothing in the world is equal for everybody. There's always one person out there who is different from everybody else. So it says means for most people. What is universally accepted for most people? There are obviously exceptions. And a mukmar is for rich people and fussy people. It's not for everyone. You can't use a mm. So then another question came up. If that's the case that it's only for regular people, what if you have a venison crosses your path on yons and you want to say, "Oh, look, let's shed and have some uh have some venison meat. If a if a deer crosses your path and you want to have venison on yon, you're going to tell me because most people don't eat venison. Certainly not in England by the way when I believe they they all belong to the queen or now the king. So if you're if you fancy a bit of venison in England then please make sure that you get permission from King Charles first if that's relevant. So if you if you aim people don't eat venison so you should be prohibited from deer because it's not he said to him no no no obviously most people don't eat deer but they the reason they don't eat it is because they can't afford it. They'd be quite happy to eat it if you provided it for them but the reason they don't use a mukmar is because they feel it's just you know strange they don't need it. Who does that? only very rich people. Everybody likes to eat meat. I mean, not everybody, but people like to eat meat. They'd eat venison if they could. And it's it's not just a thing that people do. It's a thing that people need. People need to eat. This ta is something which is so we need to ask now that question about showering on is showering on something which is shave. Is that a universal need? Is that a universal uh practice? How how does that work? And why do people shower on yon? Do they shower for health reasons or any day of the week? Do they shower just because they feel nice? Do they shower for health reasons? Is it is it a firstworld practice? So let's have a look at number six says to in the middle ages. Now you'll probably be aware people shower a lot less in the middle ages and we'll talk about that later on. mater in Ashkanaz the only is to heat water for your feet to bathe your whole body they agree surely that's because you need something which is which everybody does or most people do bathing on is only for like a bit hedonistic. Maybe honistic is too strong. Self-indulgent. That's what people people like that hands and feets. That's everybody needs to wash their hands and feet. That's not indulgent. Notice he added hands sneakily in here where the the the Mishna only talked about feet. So the saying, "No, the three go together. Hands, face, feet. These are things that people wash. When we get to the mission of Burough, we'll ask the question, well, what about feet? Now, people don't wash their feet very often by the time you get to Poland and Russia in the 19th century. Is that still included? And that's going to be very important. Now, this to us is extremely important because to seems to be saying that the stakes here are very high that if you heat water on Yonf in order to bathe your whole body, that might be a Torah prohibition because you've done a mala which is not shave. So that's really a problem if you do that. You're allowed to heat it for your hands, knees, and hands, face, and feet, but not for your whole body. And therefore, if we're going to go with this opinion, then it's going to become very problematic to wash or to to bathe. To heat the water to bathe the she the problem here is not the bathing, it's the heating the water to bathe. Paradoxically, this very stringent approach might be the very one that saves us and gives us a lenient answer. Because if you're able to turn around and say, well, the whole problem is the people didn't used to shower daily. Now the people do shower daily. It is shave nephesh. So now now you have a whole different answer. But can we say that? Do we say that? But that's the first issue according to shave nephesh. Park that in your mind. We're going to come back to it soon. The second issue and people don't realize this. This second issue is a very significant one is what's called The gazer the decree that the rabbis made against bathous or also called gazer balanim balanim well you all know what balanot are balanim people who run the bath house so what's the issue of actually taking a bath on sh here the issue is not can you heat the water but the issue is can you even go to the bath house and we'll see why that is look at number seven please with me so the uh the men of taria maybe the women as well But certainly the people of Tavaria um initiated or innovated something very interesting and technological in the time of the Mishna. Number seven says the Mishna in Shabasia there's a new invention that the Tiberious Institutes of Technology in the time of the Mishna brought out. They have these hot springs in Tiberius as I'm sure you know. They brought a pipe of cold water running all the way through. They didn't turn it on on for Shabas. It runs all the time. A pipe that goes through the hot springs and now they have hot water on tap. They just open the pipe and it's hot water. They didn't heat anything. It heats by the seismic activity of the of the Aryan and the responded to them. I'm sorry, you can't use this shabas. If this is water on tap that you're going to use on Shabas and it's like water we we are rabbitically going to give it the dinner of water that was heated on Shabasim and you know how the works. If you heat water on Shabas or even if you get a non-Jew to heat water for you on Shabas you're not allowed to use it. You're not allowed to use it for washing. You're not allowed to use it for drinking. So if you use this pipe for water on Shabas we're going to make a gazer. You can't drink it or use it. But if you use it on it's like water that was heated on and you're not allowed to wash with it. Here we are again. You're allowed to wash but you are allowed to drink it because you're allowed to heat water on to drink it and therefore you're allowed to drink it. What what was the concern here? It's nothing to do with Shabesh. The rabbis had a concern where people were heating up water by other means on Shabas and they wanted to kind of close that down. They wanted to close down this use. So the the reason for this is brought down in the Gmorrah that explains what's going on here. Look at number eight. Originally says the Gmorrah. If you heat water on Friday, originally the was you can take a bath on Shabas in hot water. Now, we now don't bathe on Shabas at all. We'll get to that. There's a min, which is the third part of the equation. But back in the day, people used to bathe. People certainly used to go to the mikvah a lot, but people used to even bathe on Shabas as long as the water was heated before Shabas. Fine. What happened? They the Balanim, the the people in charge of the the bathous started to break Shabas. They would heat the water on purpose on Shabas and they would tell the customers Oh, it's fine. This was all from Araf Shabas. People would come to the hot springs to the to the bath house. They would say, "Oh, this is nice hot water. How do you do this?" It's fine. It's from yesterday. We have a special system. Yeah. Maybe one of these pipe systems that we talked about before. So, obviously they banned it because they said people are lying and they're breaking Shabas and saying they did it in Shabas. They did it. So the rabbi said, "Okay, no more bathing on shabas, but you can go to a you can go to a shvitz. You can go to the sauna." Why were they more lenient on sauners? Because they regarded a sauna as a medical issue, as a health issue, not just an indulgence issue. So they said, "You can still take a sauna." So what happened? People were still lying. They were going to the bath house, taking a regular bath on Shabasim and they were saying, "It's fine. We're just taking a sauna. People were prepared to weasle their way out of this and they would lie and they say we're taking a sauna. So the rabbi say okay no good they prohibited sauners as well but they allowed them to bathe in the in the hot springs that were naturally um emerging. So but they still didn't listen. They were still abusing this and they were bathing in regular water which was heated on Shabas and they were saying we it's fine we went to the we went to the hot springs. So the rabbis turned around and said you know something the whole thing is so now even the hot springs is but they said good news is you can still take a cold bath on chas because how can you abuse a cold bath? Everything they tried with the hot baths didn't work. They they said you know take avitam and people lied. So you can take a cold bath. The rabbis saw that this was not working and the rabbis were just being ignored completely. So they backtracked and they said okay we're going to put back on the permitted menu the hot springs and as well and you could take a even as well. the only thing you can't do is go for an actual hot bath. So it's very interesting what what made the rabbis, you know, backtrack on this. So this is also part of the metaic discussion. Very often when you know the rabbis sees something that is not working, so they want to try and put some system in place to to stop it being abused. When they see that it the whole thing is just being completely ignored. Certainly in the time of the Sanhedrin, the Sanhedrin were not allowed to make a gazer or a takana that the that cibur that the community was not able to take because then they just become the people that everybody ignores and that undermines rabbitic authority entirely. And therefore getting that exactly right, getting that balance right was part of what they're trying to do here. But they backtracked and they said, "Okay, you can go for a uh you can go to the Kame, you can go for a sauna, but you still can't take a hot bath on Shabas." And that's called how far did that go? So look in number nine says the Gmorrah. So this water that was heated on Shabas. So that's not that is that still a problem if you heated water on Shabas. Well yes that was the whole gazer. Even people who heated water on Shabas you can't bathe it in on Shabas says on Shabasu aa aa you can still do aa aa aa a a means limb by limb you know you put your left arm out you put your right arm out you know you do the hokeie koke and you you do the whole thing it's this process you stand outside the shower arm arm leg because that they didn't make a gazer on the gazer was on bathing not on people just dipping their arms and legs in the water. No, no, no, no. Once you start letting people do the hoke koke in the shower, that's no good. It has to be just your face, your hands, and your feet. Yes. >> Showering itself is is a problem because when you take a bath, your whole body is immersed simultaneously. >> Showering your whole body is not even >> Excellent. So, you're raising the question, what does any of this have to do with showering? They didn't even have showering in those days. We'll get to that. We'll get to that. We are, you're quite right. We're talking about bathing so far. Okay. So, we have you're not allowed to take a bath on Shabas, even in water that was heated before Shabas. Um, and there's this debate as to whether you're allowed to dip your arms in or not your arms in or whether it's only the face. We passing like on that. And on Shabas itself, the is that you're only allowed to wash your face, etc. on water that was heated before Shabas. But what about Yonv? We're we're today asking about Yonv. Did they extend this whole issue to Yansf? Because the issues on Yonf are much less. It's a different kind of question. There's of course it's not the same thing. Okay, there's an is let's say to heat water, but what is that is? So have a look at number 10. So the ram asks this as follows. So if you want to wash in principle on and anoint with oil, that's not a problem of shmearing. It's thin oil. say and you're allowed to do that on it says anything that you need for therefore you can heat water for washing on you're allowed to heat up water and he says face arms and face hands and feet you're but you're not allowed to to to wash your whole That's the reason as far as a ram is concerned even on there is a problem of it applies to as well of but on Ysef will be more lenient water that was heated on then you can have a complete bath on on that water but spilled that only applies to Shabas that doesn't apply to Yon so the Ramb sets down very clear clearly this is not an issue of shave nephesh this is an issue of how far does this gazer go it's really a gazer on shabas but it also applies to yon and therefore we're not going to allow you to bathe fully in water that was heated on yonf we're allowed we're allowed to wash your hands feet and face but water that was heated on air of yon that's fine that's fine we're not worried about that that's not part of the gazer he doesn't say anything about limb by limb But he certainly doesn't apply the gazer in the same way to Yansf and therefore again we're going to have to work out. So what's the deal? Does it matter if you're Sari or Ashkanazi? So far we've had two reasons why bathing on Yon might be a problem. Reason number one is if you heat the water to said shave nephesh this is not shave nephesh you're breaking on a Torah level says the ram. No no no I'm not concerned about the on the Torah level. Maybe he doesn't hold by that. He holds it. That's fine. Shave nephesh would include this. But the problem is the rabbitic gazer of you're not allowed to do that because of part of this general principle. Have a look on page four number 11 says the um the maharil. The Maril is of course Ashkanazi and the Maril came in the 15th century and said but we 14th century we have a min irrespective of all of this we have an Ashkanazi min and he says because what about women who go to the mikvah on Shabas now as you know you're allowed to go to the mikvah on Shabas but what about women who don't go to the mikvah on the correct night of going to the mikvah they had to delay they go to the mikvah later it's not mikvah night as it were so wood women go on Shabas, they should really have gone on Wednesday or Thursday. Okay, they were out of town. It wasn't convenient. It's fine. I'll go on Friday night. So, we have a says the Mahar that the women don't go to the mikvah on Shabas unless it's the night of their mikvah if they can go on the weekday. You shouldn't go on Shabasim. Why? What's the problem going to the mikvah? By the way, no one had an issue before going to the mikvah. We were talking about the bath house going to the mikvah shabas is fine for a woman anyway and for a man also depends on exactly what's happening and why but not for that not getting into that now do me high because for this reason we have a clear shalas we don't even have cold baths on shabas what could be wrong with a cold bath there's no issue of heating up the water there's no issue of the gazer of it's a cold bath what's the problem the sh And if I'd have asked you at the beginning of this year, what's the problem bathing on Shabas? You probably would have said this first. Oh, you might squeeze, you might squeeze out your hair. They were worried about people who are going to carry if you're out in out and about. You have a towel with you. You're going to forget. You're going to carry even in a rabbitically prohibited area. You're going to carry on Shabas. Even the water that's on your skin that could also be called carrying valunt and also the the towel but migasaras and also in rivers misha because also swimming you know you're going to the to bathe in a cold river you might end up swimming swimming is another problem on on shabas the kismin and pushing away some of the the the wood chips on the water you'll you'll be carrying you'll push them down at amus therefore we have a general principle that we don't do any bathing not because of the bathing but because we're worried about other things you'll squeeze your hair, you'll squeeze the towel, you'll carry the towel, you'll end up swimming, etc., etc. So that that's where the Ashkanazi min comes from that we just basically don't bathe at all in cold, in hot, on shabas, on etc. Now, what is the extent of that minhug? Does that min apply to showering? Now, on the one hand, if the problem is you might squeeze out your hair, I mean, talking to people who have hair, okay, but or let's say squeeze out the towel, then that applies when you're sharing as well. If the problem is you might carry push water away whatever that's not shy for towel you might end up in it for a shower you might end up swimming I'm not going to end up swimming if I take a shower you know you can't end up swimming anywhere so is this min applicable or not so we have three different reasons why there might be a problem bathing number one I can't take a hot shower on Shabas or a hot bath we'll say bath for now uh because I might heat up the water and it's not shabish there's a Torah prohibition number two maybe there isn't a Torah prohibition But this is part of the general gazer that the rabbis made. We don't want people bathing on shabas and yon because the balanim were lying and they were heating water on shabas. Da da da. Well, number three, we don't want people bathing on yons because there's a general min that we have certainly in Ashkanaz that we don't bathe at all. Now, what are the practical differences between those reasons? So, I brought you on page four. You can do most of this in your own time. depending on which reason uh you use that might have an impact. Uh for example, I put at the beginning would it be permitted to bathe on Yonf in water which was heated before Yonf? Okay. So um let's do number two actually. Would there be an except exception for someone who is miter? Let's say someone says look I'm very very fussy. I feel if I don't take a shower, I'm going to be extremely uncomfortable, almost sick, almost I'm almost like a if I don't take a shower. So according to Tosfus, who holds that it's Torah prohibition, I'm I'm sorry. You know, what can we do? If it's nephesh, then we can talk. It's not likely to be puak nephesh, but heating water for puakesh and a brickm etc. There there's a there's a discussion to be had there. But those of us will say no. The Rambam will say, "Well, no, there's a gazer raon." But does that gazer apply to people who are in extreme discomfort? We have a general principle gazan. The rabbis did not normally make a gazer for people who are so discomforted depending on how that discomfort was. What about the maharil he's worried about or they're worried about squeezing? Well, was that minhag? Did that min apply to people who are ill as well? Or was the min only on healthy people are not on ill people? And there are many uh other aspects as well. What if people shower daily? So will say well may fine maybe that's shabish. The rabb will say well no that's a rabbitic prohibition just because people shower daily. Now the rabbitic prohibition has not necessarily changed. We're worried about people heating water on shabas etc. And you can look through this yourself uh and uh and think about how those differences apply in different ways. Okay. What's the Yes. >> Oh, we'll get there. We'll get there. We are going to get into our in a few moments. Okay, look at page number five. How does the paskin and this is why this area is complicated so far? I hope it's been relatively simple. You have a question. Can I shower on ba on? And the question is, well, there's one reason which is shave. One reason is the gazeron. One reason is the what does the rule number 12? You're allowed to heat up on water to to wash your hands and for hands read hands, face, feet, but you can't bathe your entire body. Even if you're only doing it bit by bit you cannot bathe with hot water which was heated up for more than your hands face and feet doesn't say why is the reason because like it's not shak it's a Torah prohibition is the reason the Rambam which is the gazeran is the reason the minhag probably not because the never had that minaz but you can't do it secondh but he You have water which was heated on Arab then you can then you can bathe on Yon with that water. Okay. So that sounds like the ramper. That definitely sounds like the ramp. You can do you can bathe on Shabas in on Yon in water which was heated on but not in a public bath house. Definitely sounds like the ram because the the concern is the gazer of the public bath house. And then in comes the rema and says and where we are there are people who say no way Jose in any way cold hot shabas and that is the minute I say so how's he pasining is he pascinating like but why because then there'd be no problem with cold water is he pasing like the ramb sounds like he's not is he passing like the min so the pac is clear the reasons for the pac are not clear and if you're interested later on I brought you in the footnote here an analysis on in hakipedia which is a very good website by the way I recommended you can learn a lot of halaka from alakipedia um it gives an analysis as to who might the makab and the rabbit pasing like in the one hand it sounds like to the other hand it sounds like the ramb and you can get into all the lus of that and therefore the problem here is the later maforim are not totally clear on exactly what the reasons are why they have given these pakim and therefore how they will apply to showers today because again if we're going to get into the shave nefes argument there's maybe room for maneuver we'll talk about that in a few minutes since yes sir >> of course this is talking about Europe he's not talking >> well no the makab is in the Middle East the makab is invat so he is talking about the middle east and he's it's hot invat and it's hot in Europe as well he lived in Turkey for most of the time it he's talking about both okay now by the way you'll see in a few minutes When I show you a graph, how hot or cold a place is is not necessarily indicative of how often people shout. You It's a little counterintuitive. We'll see in a minute some of the some of the some of the statistics. Um there have been developments since then. Yes, madam. >> Um what about um well was heated before? >> Yes. >> If you're using a hot water service, you know, which most of us do, you know, we we don't go and water going to take a shower. >> Okay, good. But some but the water is being heated somehow. We're going to have a look at certain systems in a minute as to how that works. We're going to see how that works. There have been developments in the last four or 500 years. The magnafra for example in number 13 says look we are very strict on that min uh whether it's hot or whether it's cold. If you look here the last two lines of the magn he quotes this and he says as far as we're concerned he's in Poland in the 1600s then is still to say it's even to go to the mikvah is okay it's another reason also why if it's not the night we are an even better even though he's says He was also worried about this men of squeezing hair and min says the magist to be completely strict about this. We do not do any of this stuff on shabas or on yon because we're worried about squeezing the hair. Number 14 says the po we don't go to the to a river. We don't go to the mikvah do go to the mikvah again he says you will come to squeeze your hair and there are many other reasons as well. Okay, Ra Moshe. What about a woman? >> Now, he's not saying that a woman can't go to a mikvah cuz that's already mitzvah and that's a requirement. But any other reason other than a woman in a mikah that's mitzvah, he says we're not prepared to go. Don't go on shabas if you're aid. Don't go to a lake. Don't go dip your feet. Don't go for a bath. Don't go for a shower. Ra Feinstein was asked, "What about taking a cold shower on a very hot day?" And he says something which is very interesting in number 15. What about this minuk? So the question here this is the whole chuva by the way it's a oneline chuva. Okay. Number 15 in Ashkanazi lands in America obviously not to take a bath on Shabas even to in cold water. Here's your question. Does that apply to showering? But even if it's a sharav see you have they have sharav in New York as well. Okay. Even on a very very hot day what's the deal? So says Mercy Feinstein as follows. one line if you're not uncomfortable meaning it's just like a bit of a indulgence then I recommend you should be even though I must tell you we have not find anywhere in our in our we haven't found any evidence of a min that you can't shower every single reference has been to bathing not to showering right because it didn't exist and therefore if you're going to say this is part of a longestablished minhag. The min can only be on what the minag is unless you say that in the 20th century the min has evolved and now don't take a shower either. But said he says I'm not sure where you're getting that from. But then he says but if you're really uncomfortable then you can for sure have a cold shower. And he's talking about having a cold shower. That was the Shila. And therefore he says on a on a on a hot Shabas a shabas or yonf if you want to have a cold shower dip in the shower he says there's no reason why you can't do that if it's really disturbing you and that by the way is the shabas kilhas as well who clearly pasans that uh uh if you are on a hot chabas day and you need to just pop into the shower just be careful not to squeeze your hair etc just to cool you off there is no reason why not to do that but he didn't really know why there was a min to to do that anytime because the min did not relate to um to showering. There was also another development that over the 18th and the 19th centuries the women began to put their foot down and said we are not prepared to go to a cold mikvah on showers. We insist the mikvah has to be heated. And there were various different chuvers landmark chuvas in the 18th and 19th centuries for example the both allowed women to be uh in a mikvah that was lukewarm. It doesn't have to be cold. Maybe the women in the middle ages would break the ice on the mikvah and go in the mikvah. He says that's not the case anymore. In the 19th century, women were not prepared to do that. Already by Rabbi Ka, it got even hotter the Kim of Sans says the common practice of women would immerse on Yansf on Yansf even in a fully heated mikvah on Shabas as well. The mikvah is heated. The justification is that the women just wouldn't go to the mikvah otherwise they needed a greater level of heat in the mikvah. By the way, how how warm is lukewarm? We keep using this word lukewarm. Now we're haki Jews. We have to have a definition for everything. Right? So there are three shittas in lukewarm. Either lukewarm is anything and I put who they are in the footnotes. Lukewarm is anything that most people don't call hot. So people if people call it oh that's not hot then that's called lukewarm. Or lukewarm is anything under body temperature which is what 97° Fahrenheit something like that. All lukewarm is anything under yatis meaning weats which is the which is the level of heat on shabas which you pro you violate the prohibition of bishop. What is so y in the garra means the temperature which you put your hand in and your hand would kind of not would burn but you just go you'd pull it back again. How hot is yad? Because the is saying if it's not yat then it's not hotically. So we don't go by people's hands today because there are people that can stick their hands in dish water which is absolutely boiling. Okay. And the other people which who won't go near it. So there is a big debate in the post as to what is but I just want to let you in on an interesting sack of rash said there's a garra I think it's in I'm not sure that says that if you an animal um and the animal turns out to be a trafer which you wouldn't know until you checked it then your knife is not tra. Why? Because the blood of the animal is not halakically hot. It's halakically cold. And therefore, you're never going to trafe up your knife if you an animal which is a trafer. So he says, so then it's very simple. Let's find out the the the highest blood temperature of any animal that you would ever she and that for sure is not Yasibbo based on that gummor. So he sends his talinium off to do some research research and they found that the highest blood temperature of any kosher animal or it's actually a bird that you might chef is a sick goose a goose with a fever okay which is still kosher is nevertheless sheffable and the blood temperature is 113° as far as I'm aware Fahrenheit therefore he said that for sure is not yatsel anymore maybe even higher is not yatsel anymore for sure that is not yats anymore so you need to be a fru you need to be a botonist, an anatomist, uh you need to you need to do all these things. So, let's ask a couple of questions before we get to OPSAC. And we'll see in a minute how we pass. I'm going to give you some uh some bottom line here. First of all, are people's showering habits different these day than they used to be? Well, for sure they are. There's been a revolution in showering partly because of just people access to water. Um you know, my father didn't grow up in the 14th century. He grew up in the 20 mid- 20th century in England and they did not have any running water in the house or they had taps but they didn't have baths. They had to take a bath, you know, somewhere else or fill up the bath or whatever. They didn't have a bathroom in the house and to go to the bathroom in the street. So, people didn't have running water in the way that they do now. And things have changed dramatically. And I brought you some graphs here uh as to which people take how many showers a week. Uh you'll see interestingly that the British are fairly low on that. They don't like getting wet. But you could excuse them and say that it's never warm enough to take a shower in England anyway. But interestingly, the Chinese take very few weekly showers. It's really quite hot in any parts of China. You see the Russians take a few more. Uh the French, the Spanish, uh in the Middle East, they actually do take quite a lot more. Australia takes a lot of showers. Uh probably because it is also hot there and they have first world access to water. Uh but interestingly, the winners of this particular competition are the Brazilians who take 12 showers or more a week, which is a lot of showers. um which is quite a lot. uh this is very culturally uh dependent you know because of uh I mean I used to work in Paris in the summer and if you go on the metro in Paris in the summer you know that the French showering habits are not the same as uh as necessarily as Americans or British >> well that's right so uh so you'll it is very culturally uh dependent and I put you I've given you various graphs there as well but more interesting for us is do I care does the definition of shavan nephesh change depending on the circumstances. So on this there are a number of rulings of Nissimus very clearly ruled and this is a ruling of the debris as well in the B Mosha that is objective if say that is not nephesh it's not nephesh that is an objective definition of and we do not uh play with it and we do not change it and it makes no difference what people actually do and he says even if people shower daily that doesn't mean it's a daily need doesn't mean they need to shower. It means that's what they do. We're talking about what people need. Okay? And he therefore says that you cannot uh you cannot depend make that depend on people's actual habits. However, that's not so posh. It's not so straightforward. Um we'll see soon that Rafichek's clear position uh brought down by many of his Talmim was that Shaveal Kesh is something which is society dependent and if you live in a society where people um have changed their bathing habits then that will actually impact the and there are even hints to this the the Mishna Bur the beh the here talks about whether you can now still wash your heat water on answer to wash your feet and he says well now now we don't wash our feet anymore so maybe the definition of shaveesh has changed now he's saying this to be strict not to be lenient he's saying now you can't even wash your feet anymore because that's not shave nephesh but once you get into a debate as to this potentially changing then you are into an interesting discussion and he brings down um other moraphorium here in number 17 that that that suggested that maybe it's not just the hands and the feet and the face if there other limbs that people regularly uh uh wash. People may be washed when they prepare for mikvah other parts of their body etc. People wash obviously a lot but there is a uh there is maybe some there's some room for uh for for flexibility there depending on what the society is there's a very important in number 18 he says as follows we saw this before we are not to heat water on we treat it like water which was heated on Shabas but and they made on the on etc etc and the re says as follows because the issue here underlying everything is that washing is actually just a pleasure activity and that's why it's like we said before the sprinkling of the of the herbs on the on the it's a pleasure activity that's the reason why washing Is even a question here? Why did they eventually permit the sauna? Remember originally they wanted to prohibit the sauna but they went back because people were just not listening. that is called because a sauna is for health purposes and therefore we're only concerned at washing because it's just an indulgence and therefore again if that has significantly changed in today's world we don't regard showering certainly showering and that might be a difference between showering and taking a bath taking a long hot bath I think for most people in a busy world we live in is considered a little bit of an indulgence Okay. I don't think I've done that for 35 years, honestly. Okay. Taking a shower, you run in, you run out. It's uh part of it's like getting dressed. And therefore, the whole attitude, not just the frequency, but the nature of the thing itself may have fundamentally changed. We just don't relate to showering as a as a pleasure activity. We relate to it as just something that is uh something we do as part of our daily routine. Um and that might be relevance as well. Before we get to the bottom line, let me just take you through a few uh heating systems because we were talking about the heating system. Turn to page eight. I couldn't leave you without a few diagrams. Uh most people either have an electric or gas boiler system uh like we used to have in the old country where you have an immersion heater of some kind or a gas burner which is heating up your water. How does that normally work? So you have a boiler that heats up the water. You turn on your hot tap, hot water comes out and simultaneously as hot water comes out, cold water goes in. Now there are some clever systems where you can bypass that. But in the old fashioned systems, if you didn't let water in and you just took the water out and the heating was still on, the whole thing would explode and you'd be, you know, in the sky before you could look around. So the cold water goes in. That cold water going in is heating up. That is the problem. That's the bishop. Cold water going in is heating and it's heating in a clear rishon on the fire. So that really is bishial. Now there are those who want to say but that's grammar. It's very indirect. Well the answer is it's not that indirect. It's water out water in. Ah there's a time lag until the cold water heats up. There's always a time lag with bishel until the cold water heats up. The nature the nature of the mala itself is a it's a mala that takes time. You don't say if someone puts a pan on the stove to heat water on showers. Well, it only heated up 5 minutes later, so that's grammar. No, that's how long it takes to do Bishel. That's how Bishel works. So, there is a problem. There is an argument to say that, well, you don't intend the cold water to heat up. It's a dasha. But then you get into the debate. Well, it's a secret. It is going to heat up. It's definitely going to happen. So, does it help that you didn't intend it? And did you really not intend it? Now, in some systems, by the way, when the heating the water system is turned off, although the water is still hot, when the cold water comes in, it sinks to the bottom and the water you're taking is off the top. And therefore, even if you're taking out hot water and cold water's going in, it's not necessarily the case that that cold water will heat up on Shabas or Yonf. I mean, let's talk stick to Jon. We're not really talking about Shabas water in any case. >> And you're not using that water in any case, unless the unless the whole system is being used. a lot of people are using it. So that there are debates to be had as to how the system works etc. Um and and therefore that may make a significant difference and again you can get the systems adapted in different ways. And then there's the duchmeish. A duchemesh is a completely different system. A dudmesh doesn't heat the water up by electricity or by uh gas. You have either uh a solar panel which generates electricity if you like and heat or generates heat I should say and heats up an element and then heats the water or you have water even going through in the old fashioned systems going through the panels and therefore everybody agrees that uh dudeshish is not a Torah prohibition of heating water even on Shabas most people are most that you can't use dudmesh water on Shabas for certain things although there are people who are Mel certainly with a small child or someone who's sick. But on Yv on Yv the situation should be quite different because which of these issues are even going to apply with the duchesh according to that we're worried that you're doing a Torah prohibition. It's not shave nephesh. Well, this is not a Torah prohibition. Okay. So, it still might be a rabbitic prohibition and we get into this other uh this other debate. What about the rabbitic prohibition of the gazer? Maybe that didn't include something like a ducheme etc. And therefore there's we're not giving a whole sheir on shemish but it may make a difference. Of course there are other concerns as well. There are systems today where when you just turn on the tap the pump goes on or instant hot water. They're obviously a problem because nothing to do with what we said so far. When you're turning on the tap then you're actually operating the system and there's a lot of things going on at the same time. Bottom line. Can you have a shower on Yansf? Yes or no. Okay let's have a look number nine page nine rather. So the first thing is it depends on whether you're spar or ashkanazi. Okay, sometimes it pays depend to go either way depending which it is. Thearim is easier the is basically the the bet rules like the ram and that the consideration is it's not the issue of shab nephesh and therefore most party post can go down the line and say that you may shower in hot water on yonf not shabas on yonf as long as the water was heated up before yonf because that's how the ram pascan certainly in a private bathroom if he was heated did before Yonf then that is permitted. Some sarity postkim permit normal showering on Yansf with water heated on Yansf in a dudesh. Okay. If using a D sheh system on Yansf as well and there are others postkin that will even be more uh and and allow on a 3-day Yansf etc. As long as the water h in the boiler was hot when shabas came when yansf came in and new incoming waters is coming in afterwards they're even make on that but the mainstream saripac is if the water was heated before you can have a hot shower on yonf it's fine the ashkanazim you have two groups one group is more lenient than the sardim and one group is stricter than the because again if you're really pinning your whole debate ones that will depend on whether you allow that to change with the times so the there are two bas basic groups. Um I say there's a minority group but it's a significant group that says that showering is today Sha Nephesh and therefore you can walk into a shower on Yonf again not Shabas on Yonf and you can uh you can use the hot water which was heated in a regular boiler system on Yonf again not if it's turns on a pump or electric electricity etc. Um and they will allow that completely and normally there are some like Rasha who is worried about the draon. Yeah. Meaning the draon may not change even if people's hap habits change. This is okay. It's better to use lukewarm water even on yontiff itself. You can just you know fine that for most people by the way that's totally fine. Nobody really needs a red hot boiling piping hot shower on yon. They probably don't want one especially if it's warm outside. Uh a lukewarm shower should be fine for for many people. Uh and certainly the Ashkanazi postkin many of them say that's okay as well. And a duchvish would definitely be okay according to those postkim. And then there are the Ashkanazi postkim that go the other way and say no the main problem is shaveesh and today we do not change that based on the times and therefore I brought you here that water heated on yonf many of those postkin will say no that is not allowed you can only do it to wash your hands and your face maybe not even your feet some people will say you can do the you know arm in arm out uh in lukewarm water others don't even allow that uh and I brought you all of the links uh down below just lastly Before we finish uh on page number 10 um the uh the other issues that we've talked about in the shower. Yes, be careful about squeezing. Squeezing is a problem. Squeezing towels is a problem of malabin. It's pushing water through the towel which is cleaning it. Squeezing hair is a problem of do'ach which is squeezing the liquid out of something else. Um a bar of soap obviously is is a problem. People should use liquid soap. And there's a debate as to how runny uh is is liquid for the hala. And I brought you a few other things as well there. combing hair, brushing hair, etc., etc. There is a parallel debate just to end in the last 30 seconds of smoking on Yonf. And this goes in the opposite direction. Whereas the Morishim used to say, look, everybody smokes. Therefore, lighting a cigarette is obviously permitted on Yonf because it's shave nephesh. Today, almost no one will say that because most people will say smoking is prohibited any day of the week. And therefore, since it's not shave nefes, people react very badly to smoking these days. Most people do not smoke. It's a small minority. Therefore, smoking is prohibited on uh yon for another reason other than the health reasons. There's an or that says that if you smoke on second day y but you don't smoke on first day yf that's an added problem because then you're insulting second day yon. Okay. So what showering on second day y is that the same? Maybe not the same because people only need the shower on second day yon. They don't need it on first day yv. But uh I would advise you to speak to your local Orthodox rabbi and find out what to do. But uh now is the season and we'll work out uh what we're going to do going forward. I wish everybody everybody should be well and we'll see you please God in a few weeks.