The Mystery of Moshe's Father-in-Law | Rabbi Shmuel Goldin | Feb 3rd 2026

Once again, this week's para is an overarching para. It's a para that speaks about matan tora. So much to talk about, but we're going to take a a strange path. We're going to take a look at an ancillary figure who appears at the revelation. And as I said to you before, an ancillary figures, the what people might call the minor figures in the Torah, should not be ignored. They have much to teach us. We're going to take a look at Yro and his appearance at or before or after Revelation. Let's take a look at the opening. You hear me? All right. Now let's take a look at the opening sections which on your page which seem very straightforward Moshe Mosha's father-in-law the priest of Midion Moshe's father-in-law Mosh is mo he heard everything that God had done >> for Moshe and his nation He is only mis that God had taken Israel, the Israelites out of Egypt. So what does he do? He gathers Moshe's wife. Why they had been separate, that's another discussion, and Mosha's children. And he comes to meet Moshe at Hari. And they arrive. A number of things occur. There are sacrifices that are offered jointly. There is a series of instructions or recommendations that Israel, famous recommendations that Israel makes to Moshe concerning proper governance. And then the Torah says Moshe. And Moshe sent his father-in-law away and he went to his land. Now I I actually didn't didn't translate that correctly. It does not say ves. It says mohe would mean that he sent him away. Val means he let him go. If he sent him away, that would be poor advice for in-law treatment, right? So therefore the Torah is saying that he lets him go. He tells he says go back and we and you and we assume based on the text that what that Israel went this happens right before Matantora. Now let's take a look at after Matanto. after Matan Torah. >> I'm sorry. >> Wasn't he there in Parasa? Um >> he appears over. It's it's an interesting question, but let's let's hold up because the the the mystery will deepen as we go here. All right. Now, we're after Montan Torah. We've this has been the seinal event the event that the second event in the creation of the Jewish Israelite state right and that is you first have and now matantora we're a nation we're different everything's different now and we've been at hari for over a year and we're now about to move and we go and the Torah speaks in what seems to lofty terms. I'm looking at the bottom of page one. By the way, the for some reason the the page numbers are the bottom instead of the top. I keep you keep you guessing. The the cloud lifted when people are going, everything is fine. They're moving away from Hari. Look at It tells us the order in which they went. But and so this is what this is the description of Ben Israel as they are traveling when all of a sudden Moshe said to Kov the Midionite his father-in-law. So Kov now is another name it would seem fore God. We are now traveling. We're traveling now and we are scheduled to go. Remember this is before the 40 years were were mandated on the people. 40 years of wandering. They're supposed to go right now immediately to Eritkan. We're going to this land that God has promised to us. And he says to him in the second line, "Come with us and we will deal well with you. It will be good for you. You will benefit Israel because God has spoken well about the things that will happen to us. love. Now response, I will not go. I'm going back to my land and my birthplace. Moshe doesn't give up 31. Please don't go. Moshe says, "Stay with us because we're going to be traveling in the Midbar and you know the pathways. You'll be able to help us. You'll be able to be the scout that tells us what's what lies ahead." Next, we're back into travels of Ben Israel. Now, there are a series of mysteries that emerge from what we just read. What's the first? >> What when did he come back? >> When did he come back? Well, all of a sudden pop he pops up at the beginning of Matan Torah. and he pops up again at the end of Matan Torah and the Torah doesn't say anything about him coming back or going away etc etc right okay so that's problem number one and re recognize that and we're going to make this clearer later that this is all happening at pivotal moments in the text Israel is appearing at the perhaps the most crucial moments of the Torah where Ben Israel are taking what are supposed to take what they had in Hari and move forward and suddenly Torah stops and says, "Okay, this conversation took place between Dro and Mosha. What do I need to know that for? What what's going on?" Okay, so that's mystery number one or two. One and two. All right, mystery number three. What's mystery number three? >> Why did the name change? >> Why the name change? Okay, we're not going to deal with that one today. That's a whole another discussion, but it's a good question. Next, why the name change? Why he's not recalled Israel in the second event? What what does the Torah leave hanging? >> Was he stay or doesn't he stay? Right. Take a look again. [clears throat] Moshe is speaking. go with us and the good that we will receive you will receive. And the next they moved right where it interrupts the section dealing with the journey from Hari to tell us this conversation. Why not clear? So you got number one, when did he come back or did he come back to RCI? All right. Number two, why is the Torah telling us these the these conversations? How many conversations actually take place? One before arena, one after arsenite. What does finally do? You're telling me the conversations. You're telling me it's important and you're not telling me the result. So what's going on here? So before we make things easier, we're going to make things harder. Let's to take a look at a seinal mach locus that emerges already in the Talmud. Themar I'm looking on page number three, the top of the page. and disagree. [snorts] They disagreed as to when Isro actually came to Hari. One of them said he came before Matan Torah as it says in the text in the first convers before the first conversation right that's tells us that Israel comes before Matan Torah the other one says no he didn't come before Matan Torah he came after Matan Torah and that's why you have the conversation afterwards but what do you do with the section before well not clear right so you have to now what is the motive motivation and we're going to mention this now and it'll become more important later. What is the motivation of these two scholars to debate this? So they say they say what did Yro hear? What was it that heard that made him come? Rebua Omar Milik Shah. He heard the news of the defeat of the of the defeat of Amalik in the war, right? The mil with Amalik and the and the success of Ben Israel in that battle matra. No, what he heard was the news of revelation. And that's why Eleazar Modi will say, Rebelar Modi will say he came after Montan Torah because he had to hear about Mont Torah to come. So you not now have not only a discussion of why these conversations appear in the text and why Israel pops up without telling us where it when and how he comes. Now you have a monocus as to when he actually came. is are we to take the Torah text as it flows even with the mysteries or are we to see something else? So, we're going to take a look at a number of opinions. Yes. Okay. I just I for context I I wanted to look up exactly where Midian was on the map and um from from even if that map is is not correct uh you know from what I saw um it's clear that Yro was a wanderer and uh the neither the first time nor the second time uh Moshe and Yro met uh were they you know were they really in the land Midian or near the land of Midian and and you know >> he's no no it's h this is all happening in hari right so that's not in mid well but what you're suggesting and what you're saying is that looking at the map which I didn't do and I'm glad you did uh it's far away it's not it's it's not a day journey it's not not that there's no proximity between the locations so therefore if he came and he went then then this was a a big journey Yes. Two more comments and then we'll move on. Yes. >> The Pik itself was pretty clear what what Mosha heard what what heard. He heard that he heard Switzerland. That's what the Pik says. >> That's correct. That's that's correct. But what specific aspect of the experience of of the result? That's what they're arguing. In other words, because the the statement and this is important. We'll come back to this. Isro means he heard. What did he hear? That's their question. So you're suggesting the Torah tells us he heard that God took them out of Egypt. They choose not to take that as the answer. And they choose to take the answers they bring up. We'll see why perhaps later. All right. One more comment. Yes. >> Proximity in the snake where Moshe was watching the sheep of his father-in-law is is where they got the Tony, wasn't it? That's correct. >> So, so if was in non was nearly spent in all these other arguments that he wasn't any. >> All right. So, the question is I you know I'd have to we really have to look at a map. I'll try to bring one in next time. But you're suggesting that that Mijan was closer to Hari than we are originally assuming. >> He wasn't took them right out for >> correct. that >> you're suggesting again right that they were in Mijon and then he had that Moshe was watching the sheep he came to our Senai so there seems to be some proximity so we all right we ask comment I'm sorry >> they both correct the word >> why can't they both >> he couldn't be that also also gave >> all what you're suggesting is why can't they both be correct in other words he heard all of these things so the answer is no They each one of them says he heard a specific thing and we'll have to see why later. All right. Now, let's >> All right. How did he travel? I don't know. >> How did news travel? >> I'm sorry. >> How did the news travel? >> How did the news travel? A very good question. One would assume that with all the 10 plagues and the parting of the Red Sea and they're standing now at Harena and somehow that spread out people heard. All right, now let's take it. All right, I'll take questions at the end. The word comments at the end. Now let's take a look at the various different approaches of Kazal based upon the dispute that takes place in the Talmud. And what they're arguing about primarily is what not only what did he hear but what did he decide and when did he come? When did he come? So you start with the Ebenezra on page number three the second major paragraph shalomish to my to my for my opinion according to my my reasoning he came once after Matan Torra which means that what you have to do is you have to take the first section ction that we learned and you have to take it out of its of its place and put it after mount as well and make it one conversation that that so he is relying on what famous statement which I told you before is very limited right we said that the Torah always follows chronological order except when it doesn't and what what we said about that was that the rule is chronology even those who say at specific moments will agree that chronologically the Torah is flowing right comes before Yetsk Yitska comes before Yakov Sor becomes comes before Rifka so there's there just un when the when they see an unusual flow or an unusual event that they can't comprehend happening the way the Torah says is they'll say very limited. Ianzra is saying that here. All right. So, he only came the second time. He didn't come back and forth. He everything that occurred occurred after Matan Torah as the people were ready to leave. Okay. Omar Mosha. I'm looking at the under sections. All right. We say And what was answer I won't go with you right etc. and says Moshe when it states after the first what we thought was the first conversation which the Yebanzra says is part of the second conversation that we saw and it's only one conversation and when the Torah says at the end because no that's what happened go he let him go and he went back all right so that's the evanzrael Why? According to the Evan Ezra, and this is very interesting, if he believes that the section of the Torah describing Israel's visit before Matan Torah is out of place and that it really belongs after. All right, I know this is confusing. Are you with me? All right. Um he the Beanzar says that like Yeshra and that whole development took place after matur. He has to take it out of the text and move it. He says why would the Torah then put it in the text? He says it's to show the distinction between I'll use my term good and bad is to show the distinction between Amolech and Israel. And in fact, we will find in Tanakh later on when Ben Israel are fighting Amolech, they they give uh the descendants of Israel appear on and they're being told to to to go out to get away not to not to be involved. So what we have here is he one time one conversation first section of text out of place. It all belongs after matan Torah. Next, the Ramb sentence that we learned that he learned about Malik and we heard and he didn't hear about matan tora. >> Well, according to the second one, that's what he heard. Second opinion is what he heard about matan tora. The first one says he mole. The second one says matan tora. Yeah. >> It says, >> right? >> Didn't mention matan. >> No, it doesn't mention it outright. And that's why they can debate what it was that he heard. Okay. Now, next, the the one who says that he heard about matan tora basically says that has to be the thing that he heard because that's the most important. [snorts] Next, the ram. And again, uh questions at the end, please. The Ramban. liter. So the Ramban has a a position on this. His position is it don't happen. It's not right. Everything in the Torah is as it's written. And therefore, what do I have here? says the Ramban, I have a visit before Matan Torah and a visit after Matan Torah. And what happened was Yes Israel came, he left, and he came back. And why doesn't the Torah tell me that he left and came and came back? I guess cuz it wasn't important. All that's is important is that he appeared here and he appeared there. That's the Ramban. And and basically he says and he takes actually he takes a position in what we were just talking about. He comes back and forth you win because it's close to me. All right. So therefore and and look at the bottom of the text. According to to him, and we'll come back to this later, according to him, Israel listens to Moshe does not return to Bjan even though he says he's going to return to Midan and he stays with Israel. Next, via Bravenel. Rafael says [laughter] Yak for no reason. Y Isro came before Matan Torah and he stayed until after Matan Torra. That's it. He didn't go back and forth. He came at Matanto. He experienced Matan Torah and he has that conversation after Matan Torah and the concept of going back and forth etc etc and it says that now the one problem with that is that it says Moshe eso after the first visit says and Moshe let him go and he went but according according to theel he didn't go he stayed so He answers that question. He basically says he didn't go that that's talking about what eventually happened. All right. So just to get an idea here, you see what's happening. What's happening is every single possible alternative is being held by someone, right? Either he comes before and he stays or he comes before and he leaves and comes back or he doesn't come before at all and he only comes afterwards. So we we don't have an answer. We have a plethora of answers. Next, what is Yro's decision? All right. So Yro says I'm not going to go says this. Now why is he saying that? What what what's motivating him? Now here I want you to hear what the Him will say and see how relevant it is to us today when we discuss the concept of aliyah with people. All right. Take a look at the the arguments that according to Kazalro raises when he says I'm not going to go with you. The first one I can't go says. Why not? because my my my makeup my body I won't be able to acclimate to a new location and to new food. Right? In other words, I I I I this is this is working for me. I I go to a new place, I I have no guarantee that I'm going to be able to acclimate. So, that's problem number one. And then the star goes on to say at the bottom. So he says what happened was what does he decide? Does he go back? Does he stay? Yes goes back but his children stay. And that's why you see them later on in the in the in the in the history of Ben Israel because they're there. They didn't his children stay and and he leaves next. That's the smarter. >> It doesn't >> I'm sorry. I'll come back. >> His children. >> No, it Well, it does in the second in the first case it does. All right. In the first case, it does. It says here what what the ma children in the first anyway next cphree look at the argument that according to the cphree the medish races going with you he says is good for someone, you know, go going somewhere, leaving a place is is right for people who don't own things, who don't aren't settled or But so look at Look how the Siri is is painting this. I have lots of stuff. I am in good shape. I'm here. I have a land, right? I have I'm at a dion. I'm doing important things. And not only am I doing important things, but I have a exalted position in the community. Why would I leave? Why would I go? And it what's fascinating again here is again these are the arguments we'll hear today. I mean when when when someone says to my wife when she speaks to her about aliyah why do I have to go to Israel I have burrow park >> that's right here right in other words why should I leave I I've got everything I need all the all the kosher restaurants I want all the all the pesak holidays I need everything I want here we are I don't want to go back next the mult also medish Here [laughter] the multila raises a number of what we'll call ethical reasons that he is refusing to go. >> He converted by the >> we don't know if he converted. We'll we'll get to that. That's also a question. All right. So let's let's go on. He says I want to go back. Why? Why do I want to do it? Because I want to convert the Midianites. You know, I I serve an important purpose here. This is an echo of the things that we hear at some point in Jewish history when the reform movement, for example, says, "I don't need the land of Israel anymore in their first in their Pittsburgh conclave." Why? Because we should be spread out so that we can what? we can teach everybody what better way if we went in one place we can't teach everybody so we could we so he wants to he wants to convert them the next thing he says and this is very pretty a candle is only effective >> in a dark room but I am going to beamo. I'm going to be between the sun Moshe su n and the moon aon. I won't nobody will pay attention to I I won't be important. Number one, I won't be important and I won't be able to accomplish anything. That's that argument. Next argument. Uh I owe money to people and people have done left things with me and I have to stay to take care of loose ends no matter how long that's going to take me. So all right. So here we have and and according to the Yro returns to Midan but eventually comes back even though the Torah doesn't tell us that. All right. So once again, what do we got? Plethora of answers. Does he stay? Does he not stay? Does he go? Do his children go? All of this is left. And finally, we have the most important question. Don't turn the page because it'll give you the secret. What's the most important question? >> Why is the Torah doing this? Why is the Torah having Yro appear before after? We don't know when he comes, how he comes, does he stay, doesn't he stay? If you're going to tell me the story, tell me the story. And particularly tell me what what it what it how it ends, right? Does he stay with the or doesn't he? The Torah leaves that totally blank. So what would the why would the and why is it so important? As we said earlier that these conversations are so significant that they're found in the Torah at such pivotal moments before matan tora right after matan tora. So I'm going to suggest to you the following. The answer lies in the first word that we read Israel. There's a difference in the Torah between and seeing in the Torah is something right in front of you that you are experiencing and and [snorts] see it clearly, right? Etc. They saw them at Yamsu etc etc that they see the thunder and the lightning. What what do you mean see thunder? It means they're experiencing they're experiencing this Yro if we take the simple flow of the text which is that he does come before Matan Toro whether he comes back you know what Yro is the only one there then who didn't see he heard hearing in contrast to seeing in the Torah is much more distant hearing is I'm not there seeing it unfold it's coming to me even the way we use it is here oh Israel what's it means take it in take it in here accept what you've heard what you've been told etc etc even though you haven't experienced X that means that Israel is the one person who is closest to our experience, right? All the others at Hari see all the Nissim. It's Y Israel who doesn't. It's Israel who comes because he heard. And I think what the Torah is doing and let's remember that we said that that that according to the Talmud remember the famous medish that the Torah God lifts up the mountain and threatens bin Israel at Harai. He says either you're going to accept the Torah or I'm going to drop this on your head and and and that's the end of you. Why does why does do the Kazal say that? Why do they suggest that in the medish? Because what they're saying is, I think, and I've seen it elsewhere, the people who stood at Hari, aside from Israel, didn't have a choice. They didn't have a choice. What What do I mean by that? >> That they didn't have a right. It was acceptance because of force of circumstance. what I'm going to stand at Hari after going through seeing the 10 plagues after going through Yamsuf after defeating Amik thunder lightning God says to me you're going to keep the Torah what am I you're going to say no [snorts] not not not not really and therefore when we say that Yro is the one who has the choice we're saying that in in a real sense Ben Israel did not have that choice so the Torah wants to And and just to make it relevant to our upcoming holiday, [snorts] according to Kazal, the same one that says says, "When did they finally accept the Torah of their own valition valition?" Why pur? Why? Why? Why Porm? Because PUM is a hidden miracle. But more importantly, equally important is when PUM occurs. Perm occurs at the turning point of the national era when God stops talking. No more nim. No, now it's all hidden. Now it's all coming. It's all nistar hidden miracles. So what's happening is and that's a pivotal moment in history. So poor they accept and how do they because it says they accepted and that and and did and that did and accepted and that's parallel to Nasishma. So there's here's where they're taking it. They're taking it and accepting it on their own. So if Yesro is the we'll take at the end. If Israel is therefore the the one person who's closest to us, maybe that's what the co maybe that's exactly what the Torah is portraying. Exactly what the Torah is portraying is the challenge of those who hear rather than see. And the challenge is left un unfinished. Why? Because it's there's no real there's no foregone conclusion here. It's not. It's possible Yeshua left. It's possible Yro came. It's possible. But what's important is he's had to struggle to accept the Torah in a way that is similar to the to to the way that we have to accept the Torah across the ages. And therefore by injecting him into the story right before and right after matan Torah the Torah is saying you can't really relate to everyone else but you can relate to him he heard whatever it is he heard maybe either he heard about Amalik or he heard about revelation or he heard about something and then came and then experienced revel one thing or the what what his coming was a result of hearing rather than seeing and he had the choice. Now there is one other final note that we we're going to add to all of this and that is someone asked uh did he convert already? I got a better question. Does he convert? It's not clear. Does Israel become the first g? Does he become the first convert to Judaism? And there is a there are those who suggest he does and there are those who suggest that he doesn't. Right? Again, because it's a for it's not an easy thing. And this raises the whole issue and I'm going to we've spoken about it before a little bit. I'm going to speak about it a little bit now. maybe later some other day even more fully the Jewish approach to conversion right do we want converts or don't we want converts >> yes and no we want good converts that's what we want right we want we want gaim who will be gay raedic and we say in the schona that we want to be like them, right? We're we're putting them in a high in a high echelon. What we don't want is people who come for the wrong reasons, right? Because now that now I'll tell you, you know that I got to be careful here. many of the conversions with which I was involved and I was involved with a number of them and also involved with the setting up of a system through the RCA etc. That's a whole whole other story. But most of the converts came because they met someone Jewish and they wanted to >> right. However, although that was the original motivation, I had to become clear with them and they had to pro, you know, basically attest to me that by the time they were converting, they would do it for themselves even if that person wasn't there. And I think 90% of the time it worked. Uh there was a 10% of the time where where where either I made a mistake or they weren't honest or or I just didn't get it. All right. So what remember now let's go back for a moment. What we said what is Israel here? So I've told you this before. What's the first step to conversion? First step is we try to try to tell them not to do it or not to do it. What how do we do that? How do we do that? What do we say? >> What? Not not it's hard to do. Not a lot of bits. It's do you really want to be part of this people that has been so persecuted across the ages? That's by Yesishma. That's the position who says that what Israel heard was amik. Because Yo has to accept if he's going to come, he has to accept being part of the nation. The first step towards becoming Jewish is being part of a people. Now once they go past that step and they say, "Okay, what what does this say?" Then you start telling them about the mitzvot. That's the position that says he heard Torah because that has to happen too. So all of this is really relevant in terms of the unfolding story around us and in our lives. It's very very significant. To sum up, we're s we found that there are numerous approaches to the mysteries of Israel, but we've suggested that the mystery itself is the purpose. The mystery is God is putting Israel at the pivotal moments because Israel is the only one there who does not see, he hears. And it's unclear someone who only hears whether or not he'll stay or not. And and that's the possibility. Okay. Yes. >> Because he only heard and didn't sleep but was still willing to take that step. That changed Jose because the not of Mishma we had no choice. >> What? That's that's correct. That's saying if if it's true we we again we don't know if it's true that Ysro takes the step and and stays then that is a bigger challenge than those around him. Correct. And I will tell you that a convert's challenge is is monumental. One of the hardest things for Gram to to deal with or to accept is the severing of official connection with their family. Now does that doesn't mean they can't love them and talk to them but officially they're not their parents anymore. They're not their sister and they're not their brother. You're a new person. So all of these are all very difficult things. And yes, if stays, he's accomplishing something that powers over what everyone else is. Okay. Yes. Can you explain again please why the fact that Hashem stops speaking in the time of pouring why is that the force behind when they start accepting free >> it's not okay good question you said what the fact that God stops speaking now let me say that there are two points when God stops speaking we spoke about it the first one in the patriarchal era when you get to Yoseph suddenly God stops talking and then You have a parallel situation where God starts talking again when the nation is born, stops talking around pouring. That's not the catalyst for them accepting. It's that they accepted at that point. In other words, at that point, they accepted through Shme, through hearing that which had been given originally through seeing. In other words, at that point, we were willing to believe in a God who operates behind the scenes. [snorts] It's easier to believe in a God that right there with you. Miracle after miracle, >> they recognize they didn't know. >> That's right. In other words, they recognize God's um God's presence in their lives even though it wasn't clear. And that if you go back to Yoseph, that's exactly what Yoseph did. Yoseph is the first one since Abraham to whom God doesn't speak and he has to bring God into the story over and over again. It's the same the same challenge in the individual era takes place in the national era. Yes. Was a coheno allowed to marry a guillor because Elazar who became the co-ho in the midbar after Aron died before they entered Israel married the daughter of Israel. >> So how did that work out? >> Okay. So >> so was he a girl? >> All right. Good question. She she's asking halahically is a cog allowed to marry a g and the answer is no. And the question is, how could Elo the Coeno therefore marry the daughter of Israel? I don't have a real answer for that. It is possible though maybe she wasn't maybe she was born to a convert as opposed a convert herself. I don't know how old she was, right? So in other words, the possibility is she wasn't born yet and she comes later. But very very let's remember something. In spite of the fact that Townwood will tell us that the A of Neimos observed the Torah 613, it's clear that they didn't, right? Because for example, they had multiple wives. All right? Well, they didn't. At least they didn't listen to Rabu Gerish thousands of years later. But so the question is, were they bound by the same restrictions at that point that we are bound now? And it's not clear. It seemed most most easily shot I would say they were not until matan Torah until you get the all of the then once you get all the mitzvot then you then it tells you that you're not allowed to marry until then you're out maybe. Okay. All right everybody. Yes. Sorry. not find the references family. >> Correct. >> So she clearly was not Jewish. Is that correct? >> That's correct. >> And so there were descendants of Israel, found they were friendly with the Israel, but they were not Jewish. How do those who say that Isra converted? How do you reconcile this >> that with that? They will say the following. They will say Yro converted and members of his family did but other members didn't accept it. And you have people part of his family became converts and part of his family did not. I assume right now what's what's interesting though is you're right and that's why we rebu says that he heard Am right because they the whole point is he becomes a con if he becomes a convert he becomes a convert because of that and when they fight amik they tell the kaniman to get out of the way kanak will say because again you're you're this is all right >> you wouldn't have to say that there fulfillment >> don't know no 100% they're not fulfill there are kanim who are not absolutely I you have to assume that some of the descendants either didn't accept it at the time of of Ysro or did not ex if he is Mskayer or gave it up later on. Okay everybody. All right. Thanks very much.