Good and Evil: Who Decides? Sefer Bereshit by Rabbi Shmuel Goldin

okay good good morning it's still morning everybody um couple of things first of all uh I'd like to announce and we should announce each week that our sheer is sponsored for the Year by Dr and Mrs manam um Marcus Marcus thank you Dr Mrs Manaka Marcus uh in loving memory of their aunts Hilda Meyer and irah Hass so uh I thank you for for helping me remember I I my my mind blanked for just a moment okay we are about to enter into what has to be one of the most difficult and mysterious episodes in the Torah and that is the episode of the pre at to the fruit of the Forbidden tree fruit of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil first we look at the context look at the two before you God created this garden and caused to to bloom within it all sorts of beautiful trees all sorts of beautiful plants beautiful to behold and beautiful and and of beautiful to eat good to eat but in this Garden he also planted two unique trees atas and the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil and the tree of life then the Torah goes on to say God commanded the man to say and by the way we're still calling himam instead of Adam it's interesting later on it'll be Adam Adam now it's the man God commanded the man to say and perhaps we'll explain that a little bit later you shall certainly eat from all the trees of the garden everything's available to you but but from the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil you shall certainly not eat because if you do on you will you will certainly die stop there before we go on and try to delve into the problems with this story we need to talk for a moment or two about three forces that weave together and these three forces govern not only man's life but his relationship with AES the three forces are precious predestination and Free Will preci God's God's knowledge preci God's knowledge pre pre pre you see it there pre science uh prence pressence right it's right written down there predestination and Free Will precious means God's knowledge or forn knowledge of what is about to happen his ability to know what is going to happen before it happens Free Will and predestination which of these three forces do we believe in it's a trick questione we believe in all three all three all right that's right it's a trick question all right we believe in all three let's try to understand Free Will is fundamental to Jewish law fundamental to our belief God creates man uniquely with the ability to choose without free will you can't be held culpable for what you do you can't be rewarded for what you do you obviously Free Will is an essential component of our belief in our relationship with thought wondering I think if I were there I would first have eaten the other tree so that I could live forever and then I would eat all right that's an interesting interesting comment all right her comment was that if she was there she would have eaten from the Tree of go of Life first and then uh and then from the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil all right let's hold that let's hold that I don't have a great answer for you but let's let's hold that for for a little while yeah what's your answer if had eaten of the Tree of Life first it might have told you not to eat from the other tree right if You' eaten from the Tree of Life first it might have told you not to eat from the other tree all right we'll talk about it basically it trps the say so if you think you're going to get away with it you're not most Tas right unless telling you right then except except when he chases Adam from The Garden it does say less he eat from the Tree of of of life so there seems to be God is limiting his own options by creating the tree of life and saying if he does eat from the Tree of Life then he'll live forever all right but let's let's hold it up all right so free will everybody agrees is is essential to Jewish belief preons do we believe that God knows what's going to happen before it happens of course okay how does that then interface okay the B is the only classical commentary who says that God chooses not to not to know what we're going to do in other words he chooses he limits his for knowledge but most authorities right most most philosophers will say that God knows what's going to happen seems to indicate it doesn't know often like God regrets all right that's an interesting point all right that raises when we get to that we'll have to try to deal with God regrets and how do you deal with the fact that things seem to change and God seems to act in response to the change as if he didn't know it would happen but most philosophers nonetheless in spite of those problems that emerged from the text will say that God knows what's going to happen he just is reacting to what will happen in and that it's a product of our free will that those things happen now how if he knows what I'm going to choose am I really choosing it all right so it's a very difficult question it's a very difficult question on a simplistic level we can answer it and we'll have to we'll have to be I think we still choosing out of our will every system every AI every manmade system I mean personally I'm an engineer when we design I'm not going to tell the machine what I'm going to design but every program it will recognize what is default and fault when it stop and stop I mean to keep going God gave us free will all right but if you know and then he knew everything what we choose but it still it's my choice okay so you're suggesting that the two of them can coexist yes all right and the answer on a s on a simple level without getting into all of the details and you're raising some very good points about the Torah seems to raise some issues about God's forn knowledge we'll get to that when we immediately when we get to Noah and and God react or even now God responding to something that happens as if it didn't know it would happen but God seems to know what we're going to do according to most philosophers and on a simplistic level I can put it in these terms God if if God if I were to create a time machine and go into the future and see that 2:00 tomorrow afternoon you're going to cross the street and I come back and I don't tell you even though I know that at 2:00 you're going to cross the street laav Dillan I'm not God even though I know you're going to cross the street you're still choosing to cross the street at that particular moment God by not telling you what you're going to do does not therefore does not limit your free choice um yes I just wanted wanted to add that pre science means that God knows but but he chooses not to interfere so we could have free choice that's correct that's correct all right in other words he chooses not to interfere in order to allow for our free choice now questions have been raised very very serious questions about what does that mean when something happens and God is responding to it as if it it seems he didn't know it would happen we'll have to deal with that we'll have to deal with that now next yes does interfere what but there are times there are times he does interfere and we'll have to deal with those times as well there are times where he lets us know what's going to happen or he inter interferes with what what is happening yes um we experience time is linear but there's a thing that past present and future are all happening at the same time so it could be right it's very possible that in God's world the time is not linear we don't understand we don't know okay now what about number three predestination do we believe in that yes on some level we certainly do my genes were predetermined where I was born was predetermined when I was born was predetermined your actions my uh my actions are not and that's and the the very the the rabis take this philosophical quandry and they they they they communicate it in what is excuse me forgot to shut off forgot to shut it off okay and they communicated in what is a very py you as this is always the case a very beautiful medish that seems to say something very simple but is saying something very very very complicated if you take a look at the third paragraph on the page the the angel that is appointed to the to birth pregnancy and birth is Lila is known as L what he does is he takes the small drop and he holds it before God and he sayson sh what's going to happen with this with this particular life is he going to be strong is he going to be weak is he going to be smart or is he going to be less smart is he going to be AER or is he going to be Ani is he going to be rich or is he going to be poor but whether or not this man is going to be a woman is going to be a Russ as says everything so you see how the rabbis take it and point the paint this picture and what are they saying everything is predetermined except good nebor right accept your choice between good and evil correct now that we've asked these now that we've sort of discussed at very very surface level these three forces is let's now delve into the story and let's ask I listed a number of questions these are the ones that I believe are the most are the most obvious from the story if you have additional questions raise them now and we'll see what we can do with them why does God create a forbidden tree what is the nature of the knowledge contained in the fruit of that tree and why is it forbidden do Anda possess free free will before eating from the tree can Free Will exist without knowledge if you don't if you don't know to you don't can you can you have free will can if they lack Free Will can Adam Anda be held culpable for sinning right next is this entire event a test if so what is its purpose isn't God setting on hav up for failure all right as I told you take a child put the child in a room fill the room with toys take a box put the box in the corner wrap the box and say you can touch everything except for that box and walk out of the room all right that child is going to go great straight for the Box sooner or later so is this something that God wants to have happen and if he wants to have it happen why is that so so those are the questions that I'm raising concerning the story does anyone have have any other questions concerning the story I think those are probably enough yes my question is about the creation of Good and Evil to begin with what okay brings it back to a lot of currently as questions like why did I this thing and then put it in front why did you put the why does God create good and evil in the first place and the question the same like the box in the corner why are you doing all So my answer is we're we're going to try to take a look at that we're going to and if by the end of the class we haven't answered the question then we'll come back to it totally okay totally all right good okay let's start with the question yes if people didn't have free will what would be the point in creating if people didn't have free will what would be the point in creating it okay he'd be just like the animal in other words following instincts all right so let's let's take a look oh okay got more questions yes go ahead what's the purpose of if they were over on the mitvah and they ate from the tree Hashem doesn't have to say if I leave them here they might eat from me Hashem just takes them and takes them out of GAD okay without lest they eat from the Tree of Life all right so that that is a question that I'm going to leave for the end because it happens at the end okay and remind me if I don't discuss it before before we go yes and and repeating the question for the for the audience on tape the question was why does God limit his own ability it would seem by creating the and say later on maybe a man will eat from the Tree of Life I should get him out of the garden when in reality he should control it and just say he'll die right okay let's let's yes and why D to kill them and not kill them and why threaten to kill him and not kill them okay that's another question all right I just want to add in one what if at the very beginning all this test all of this drama story was the hashem's original intention of the creation all right why is this test here why is it here all right if it was his original intention if it's his original intention was otherwise okay so let's start let's try peace meal to start answering some of these very very serious questions that were raising about a very very strange story let's take a look at the Divide between four different commentaries two and two the Abravanel Don yanel who lived from the 1437 to 1580 primarily known for his life in Spain and having become very very prominent in the Spanish community he holds the following Free Will exists before eating from the tree he Lo and this actually mirrors someone what someone said that if went without threee will you wouldn't what would be the sense of creating man he says God wouldn't command someone to do something unless that had the choice whether or not to do it all right what I what I brought up before basically he says don't think the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil gives birth to Free Will Free Will precedes the tree what then is the nature of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil if it's not to create choice or free will he says it represents a certain kind of Das and that dasas is that knowledge is the desire for material gain right he said that before eating from the tree man was totally focused on spiritual needs or spiritual goals the eating of the tree causes man to become consumed on some level with material gain and therefore the tree represents that kind of knowledge I'm going to hold on questions for a little while and just to be able to get through the these commentaries agreeing with the Abel is the Mal who lived from 1809 to 18479 and Poland Romania Russia was Chief Rabbi of Romania for a while so he's much later he has a very interesting take he says and it fits in with the abravanel's position he says what what happens once once they eat from the tree what's the first thing they notice that they're naked and they put on clothes says the Malin before eating from the tree nephesh and goof were intermingled one's soul and one's physical being and the Goof served as the clothing for the nefes you didn't need clothes because the Goof the the the body itself was clothing it primarily was the housing for the soul what happens afterwards I'm looking at the the last line next to the last line of his statement wa I take it back I take it back all right I I Mis Mis stated the m in the beginning he says the Goof and the neish were separate they could you could move one from the other and therefore the the gof the body was the clothing for the soul all right they were two separate entities once eating from the tree they became molded and melded and at that point what happens is you have to have clothing that's why they respond but what is he saying again is he saying this is he agrees with the Abravanel that the the nees had Choice the nefes had Free Will Free Will existed before eating from the tree the tree just represents the desire for physical gain that those are the positions of the Abravanel and the Malin the ran takes a an entirely different approach ramban who lived from 1194 to 1270 schlomo as distinct from the r right the ra he said before eating from the tree man just did what he was supposed to do he did not have Choice he did not have free will he was on automatic pilot however and and as he basically like trees basically like plants you just did what you were supposed to do however when he broke that and ate from the tree so what is he saying once eating from the tree and lonely once eating from the tree does he have free choice has he moved away from being an automaton if you will to something that operates on of his own free will next Rua who lived from 12 63 to 1350 he was like a Mal he was like what's a Mal AAL is an entity without choice so man was like an entity without choice but once he eats from the tree then choice is born and he becomes responsible now this raise is a very very serious question if you don't have free will as I raised before then how can you be held what respons responsible for your actions how can this be a sin if you don't have free choice if you don't have free will then then somehow you're operating as an automaton and maybe as an automaton somehow you're eating from the tree I'm not quite sure how because God told you not to but but maybe you're just acting of of the way the way you're programmed to act artificial intelligence right the way you're programmed to acts go ahead but if if God said to you do not eat from this tree you would not eat from the tree all right as a machine as as a machine yes unless you were programmed somehow to eat from the tree in spite of God telling you not to right which you don't have choice this ra is a very serious it raises a very serious question how could he have eaten from the tree if he didn't have choice and and how can he be held culpable see the ran and and the r seem they they seem forced to say say this because if it's a tree of the to there they're forced in their minds to say that to and and and all of that is born or the choices between them are born when you eat from the tree but if you're as you say if you're being told not to eat from the tree and you are an automatic pilot you should you wouldn't eat from the tree so take a look at one answer that is suggested by suggests that man did indeed possess a degree of free will before eating from the Tree of knowledge trying to explain the ramban's position before the sin however evil remained external to men to sin Adam had to make the decision to enter evil consciously as one might enter fire in other words what he's saying is the choice free will that we know did not pre-exist the tree of knowledge of good and evil man had a degree of free choice but it was the free choice to go into the realm of evil you had a first there was a step that preceded the sin right with me and therefore that's howan is explaining the possibility that you could say that man lacks free will before eating from the tree it's not that he totally lacks free will but he lacks an element to free will he has to First decide to enter the realm of evil before choosing to do evil right now all of this all of this is is very mindboggling isn't it all right all right but what we're trying to do is we're trying to understand what the tree of and you have on the one hand two commentaries who explain that the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil represented conspicuous consumption if you will the desire for physical gain and you have two comment and they fail that Free Will existed before eating from the tree entirely and two commentaries among others and these are representative of other groups of commentaries two commentaries who are saying No Free Will as we know it is born upon eating from the tree however perhaps an element of free will Ex exists before if you take raan's position okay we're going to go to the rambam now all right but if there I see hands up so I will take two questions yes if he doesn't have free choice what separates him from anything all right so okay so your comment again is that God speaks to man he does not speak to anyone else until he speaks to the should the end of the story at least in the text and what might distinguish man on the one hand those who say he has Free Will and those who say he doesn't have free will then may be that element of free will that he has okay now the r in the moim makes a very very interesting comment and the comment I believe opens up a world which you were alluding to just a moment ago the ram says that before eating from the tree man lived in a world and these are my words of Ms but he says these are his words Ms veker truth and falsehood after eating from the tree he enters the world of Good and Evil wait before true and after good and evil before eating from the tree he is governed or he lives in the world by Ms V truth and falsehood after eating from the tree he has governed or he has entered the world of Good and Evil what was the sheer who went through all of creation what was sheer sheer meaning okay this is what you do this is God God is telling you everything well to answer your question what is the difference between Ms and and ra what's the difference between the two what's the difference between trth and falsehood and good and evil everything that was created was good everything that was created was good is established by God and Evil truth and falsehood is established by God another way of saying that is truth and falsehood is objective right good and evil is subject is subject right what man does and this far ties into what the says to what what does God doesn't want you to eat from the tree because if you eat from the [Music] tree because if you eat from the tree you will what you will be like God no knowing good and evil if we take the rambam one step further what the ROM is explaining is that there are that this is really a struggle between objective and subjective truth do we believe that there is an objective morality or do we believe that morality is subjective let's let's let me ask you a question all right if you if the eskimos all right and I'm not sure that this is absolutely true but if the eskimos felt that if a baby was born that could not survive the elements without great T without a lot of work or an Indian tribe or whatever Spartans that's a Spartans if they took that child and left it in the forest and they said let it not be a drain on the community is that moral or immoral depends on depend on the society right that's the answer depends on the society if the society says it's moral it's moral all right where does that take you all right where did that take you that takes you somewhere that takes you to a place where if a Nazi society says that Jews are verman right it's the society that's determining morality and immorality and if the society determines morality and immorality then how can you have the nurg laws and how can you hold them culpable for they followed the rules of their society because they don't want to see seven Noah laws that's correct right and that and those seven noahide laws determine whether or not a society is moral right according to us according to us but we are but what we're saying is that we are pretty much the only tradition that is as tolerant as can be because what we believe is there there are laws for us and there are laws for yeah and you don't have to be like us to become moral you can be a right you can be a a a a a tremendously moral person and not be Jewish what is the first thing we say to a convert when a convert wants to become Jewish don't why not you don't have to you don't have to because you will be you will you're actually what you actually say you'll be subjected to is that you will be right the first thing you say is you're going to be subjected to persecution but but what you're also saying is you do not have to do this it's not something that we require it's not something that God requires God doesn't say that everybody has to be Jewish God says that everybody has to be moral who and what is happening when you eat from the tree you are trying to make morality subject that's the r what happens when you meet from the tree is you are saying I want to be the determiner of good that is what the says you'll be like God the ones to determine good and evil and that's what the tree represents what the tree represents is the eternal struggle of man against God's objective morality the eternal struggle of of man trying to say I and does this struggle exist throughout history it exists in every society in every era in every world and what God is doing is he is planting this tree and he is making that choice man's right other words the choice the choice to enter that world the struggle to enter that world it's it's almost as if it's inevitable once you create man with free will he's going to want to determine on his own what's right and what's wrong and and that represents reaching out for the fruit of the tree and God says no no you shouldn't E from that tree because you should live in a world of where there is objective morality you should live in a world where morality has its rules and you can hold people culpable and societies culpable and Hamas culpable right because there are objective morality there is this concept of objective morality that exists in the world where okay so the question is whether we take the what the Nash represents all right what does the serpent represent and there will be those that will say that it's symbolic right and that it represents the pull the pull on man to eat from the tree the somehow represents this tool now there are those who will take it very literally and say that the somehow had this knowledge and that the was a unique being and there will those who will look at it and say it that it's symbolically that this is what it represents now once we once we accept the rambam's approach what we're talking about is a struggle that begins in ganaden but continues throughout history and the fact that God creates it this way as a test to man is is as if God knows what God knows it will happen correct God almost wants it to happen because if it doesn't happen then man won't be man man won't be this creature trying to struggle between objective and subjective morality so it's almost as if that this has to unfold this way know if and that's what someone else said before that man becomes man as it were when he eats from the tree because man is becoming that creature that wants to wants to Define good and evil so he wanted them to eat from the tree actually whether he wanted them to eat from the the or he felt the need for them to eat from the tree we don't understand God's ways but he knows that it will happen and he sets it up yeah I them to re well if he doesn't have free will that's a question what causes him to reach out and that's why the suggests that he has you have to say that there's an element of free will even according to those who say that he didn't have full free will that's why he's he's bringing that in because he's saying you have to say but but but what I want us to sort of understand now is that this story changes a bit doesn't it it's now not a story story about Adam and reaching for a tree it's the story of Hashem creating a world in which man chooses to struggle against his will a world in which man chooses to struggle to Define good and evil himself in his Society in his world and God is saying over and over again no you will go judge your societies by a by an obje standard the nurmberg trials after World War II basically were saying that there is an objective morality and that you will judge German Society by that objective morality that's a stretch unless you believe in an objective morality unless you believe that God creates a world where that morality is it was opposed to the trial say again Senator CH from Ohio opposed to Senator Taft was I'm repeating again that's an interesting historical fact was opposed to the trials and and one would assume because he felt you can't judge another Society by your rules yes he know what he created called human being need a struggle without struggle how you can be healthy human being okay so again what we're say what you're suggesting is is what we're saying as a whole which is that the struggle had had to emerge it had in the reality and and that God sets up the situation so that it emerges as a as a result of man's free choice because he wants us to recognize that this is the struggle we have yes this is supposed to be a universal man okay rather than a Jewish man so how is universal man supposed to know what objective good good question question is this is Universal Man rather than go than than Jewish man how is he supposed to know that this is object what's what is objective which is why the gamorra does something very strange what the gamar does when it turned back for a moment to the very first sentence on the on the pages on the first page yeah on the first page the second sentence actually you may certainly eat from all the trees of the garden but from the Tree of garden good and evil you shall not eat Etc the gamorra takes these two sentences and says that if you parse out the words and I did I'm not going to tell you how because it's a stretch what emerges from this sentences are six of the seven noahide laws what's the seventh that doesn't emerge don't eat the limb of a living animal because you're not supposed to eat any animals so so therefore six of the seven laws apply what are the seven laws by the way do you they are they are the following and I wrote them down so I wouldn't forget one all right they are the following do not do not kill or a murder do not steal do not commit aora do not worship idols do not blaspheme God which means what right curse God do not curse God in other words there has to be a belief in in God do not practice sexual immorality whatever that is incest Etc as it's defined by by the the W and the gamorra will discuss that those are the six negatives that's five that's five okay so let me go through them again idolatry blasphemy don't eat the limb of a living animal murder sexual immorality and stealing those are six negatives and there is one positive what is the one positive established courts of law right and there's a debate as to what those courts of law are supposed to rule on one position is the courts of law to obligate the set the other six laws and one is to really set up courts of law that holds a whole system of of of of of of justice of morality of morality the society's morality okay those are the seven so therefore to answer your question the gumar says somehow the not these were the gamarra cannot contemplate of a creation of Man Without a concominant creation of morality and therefore that's why the gamorra says we got to find a way to force six of the seven moral laws into these pukin because this is the communication that God has with man so somehow internally man is supposed to as part of his his creation is supposed to know the fun that there is a fundamental morality it's what we call a conscience that's and that and that that's supposed to exist that that would seem to be the rabic answer in the gamorra to your question which is an excellent question like SOL SOL had a code of laws I mean there were laws there were laws but but but they but pagans because they if they worshiped aod zoraa if they worshiped s idolatry they were not they were not not part of the seven mitv Noah but they kept some of them they they kept some of them they kept some of them all right let's let's so all right I I'm what I'm hoping what I'm hoping is that this explanation this concept of the struggle between objective and subjective morality at least at least serves as a key enabling us to better understand the story the story at this point is a is an eternal struggle not just Adam Anda eating from the tree but an eternal struggle that opens with that act now your question the God then forces them out of the garden right other words says you are forced out of the garden now because you you you've you've entered the realm of subjective morality you now have transgressed that law you you you now want to be ones those you're going to struggle to Define what's right and wrong you're not going to just listen to me and he says it by saying lest they eat from the and your question was God could say eat from the but I'm not going to let the give them eternal life God could control anything so it seems that there are times when God limits his own control right where God will say if I create this I'm going to I'm going to abide by its rules you find this in other places for example when when when Moser Renu praise praise and praise and praise to enter ER Israel and the rabbis see God is saying but I made a Ned that you wouldn't I said it in the words of aeder I said it in the words of a vow and I am Bound by that which I say you see it in in a much more obvious way in the whole concept of prayer and bra where God is giving man the opportunity to intercede and to bend his will right what you're saying is that I'm I'm limiting my power God says to the point that I will allow you to intercede and I will allow you to bend my will in a particular direction so it would seem that the is that is a powerful example of that of that limitation of God's Own power all right now I know that we have not solved the Mysteries entirely but I hope that we've given some insight what I want to do now is give you a taste of what's to come CU we're not going to leave the story behind there is a another element to this story that requires our our our attention take a look at the last page the last page in the LA on the last page you have looking ahead I repeat the sentence within which God commands the Commandment not to eat the three of the tree of knowled that's the way God says the Commandment whenever the Torah repeats something an event or a conversation the rule is what are you supposed to do compare the two and if you you compare the two lessons will emerge from that comparison take a look at how hav repeats the prohibition and I want to by the way I think I'm yeah I'm outnumbered I'm not blaming K right thank you all right we're not blaming K Because by the way we don't know what how she heard of the Commandment right God commanded Adam K wasn't created now if you say was part of Adam then she hears it when God commands Adam otherwise it's a game of telephone right otherwise it's God tells Adam Adam tells so where the breakdown in communication occurs is not known to us I'm all right it could be could be right could be any either or both we can eat from the trees from the Tree of the Gard all the trees of the garden but from the tree in the middle of the garden God said do not from it shall you touch it l you die there are a series of differences between those two versions what I want you to do is think of them so that when we come back next week we'll have it ready at our fingertips all right what are the differences what are the differences between kava's rendition of the an what we're going to once we we look at the differences between the two we are going to try to figure out why why or why Adam or why both of them deliberately change God's commandment in the way that they do what is their motivation why do they do so and that's the next layer in this strange story all right okay everybody thank you very much