Shimru - Keep It! Tochein - Grinding, International Shabbos Project Learning Program

this Tower class is brought to you by torahanytime.com okay welcome everyone welcome to shimrus International Shabbos project or something like that that's what it's called so uh Shabbos 39 keep it all of the good names welcome everybody we have a very nice representation today all the way we have um our friend from athlete and England and uh now um somebody asked me last time you know the shirom are very good but we have some token in this year so so that's exactly what we're doing this week this week this year is grinding how do you know I take my uh criticism very seriously and grinding which is the seventh Malachi actually we uh skipped toy train we went to Meraki last week uh which was number eight we skipped number seven so next week will be a lush now where was toiken used in the mishkan well in the mishkan you had the herbs that were going to be used for the dye and they were Ground into a powder and then that powder was mixed with water to produce a thick paste so the grinding process of the pestle and the mortar that was the so we're going to discuss today what constitutes there's an entire branch of halacha that were not really going to be able to get into and that is the use of medication on Shabbos which falls under the category of grinding and we'll explain in a moment the rambam says one who grinds the size of a dried fig isev so anyone who grinds says the rambam spaces tavolin the samonin or herbs the martes with a mortar that's the AV the AV is to grind spices herbs in a mortar or any kind of usual instrument what is the tulda the tulda is you see you're taking let's say grain the kernel the kernel is not usable you can't make bread out of a kernel you need to make flour so you need to crush the kernel into a flower so let's say you have a vegetable you have a carrot and you wanna you know slice and dice it so in effect you're grinding you're making very small pieces so one who grinds a vegetable um which is harvested that's a toad of time so you're saying well what do I do I like to have my Israeli salad okay good that's why you should buy it before Shabbos but you can't make it on Chavez because to cut it into a very small pieces so what if um so therefore we're going to learn when you make a salad the you should cut it into larger chunks on Chavez on Shabbos you're going to have American salad Russian salad Japanese not Japanese salad you can have Saudi Arabian salad but don't have Israeli salad on Shabbos until you know the small little cucumbers or the small little Tomatoes unless you make before I don't like it when it's when it's cut up before it's very mushy pal that's why go straight to the children's what do you need the salad for you have gefilte fish and children there's there's no room for salad you don't you don't need the salad you need salad do the lettuce obviously checked you could have put in the cherry tomatoes but you don't need that fine salad on Shabbos fine or if you um chop wood to use the sawdust that is or one who raw files metal if you even file a little bit that is the total these are all the erisa so your Israeli salad again is getting into uh issues of erisa how about taking medication on Shabbos say taking medication on Shabbos what could be problematic with taking medication on shots well there is a isra durabanon of taking medicine on Shabbos because uh in the olden days the way they produce medicine is they ground herbs so less they didn't want Hazard did not want somebody to come to produce medication on Shabbos and therefore they prohibited the uh taking of medication on Chefs now obviously if somebody needs to take it for a life-threatening situation it's mutter furthermore if somebody needs to take it for a um an illness that if they don't take it they would have be confined to a bed there would be to order their whole body would hurt so if somebody would be mishkov somebody would have to go into bed or somebody would is they're permitted to take medication on Shabbos but if somebody merely has what is called a small ailment one has a minor headache one has a minor toothache and and so then one would not be able to treat it on Shabbos one cannot treat minor ailments and now let's say somebody has a mild infection but it's a strep or something that you have to take antibiotics for so generally we we conclude that one is permitted to take antibiotics on Shabbos because if you don't take it it could end up being a life-threatening situation or a serious issue or if somebody needs to take medication because their limb is in Jeopardy that's also permitted but it's just a minor ailment we don't take medication on Shabbos now what if it's a minor ailment but you know this is the kind of headache that if you don't treat it now it will be a full blown migraine in three hours and you will have to lie down so then you're also allowed to take medicine there is a an opinion and I'm not saying this is definitive because not everybody agrees to it that you're allowed to take pre-emptive medication in other words right now you feel perfect but you have this twinge in your head that you know a headache is coming on now the headache that's coming on is only a minor ailment there are those who say you're allowed to take medication for preventative medicine that is the opinion of Rabbi ribiot many disagree with that again if you know a headache is coming on that you'll be nothing and you'll have to go to sleep and you have to lie down you for sure can take medication but if you just know something's coming on now why would you be allowed to take preemptive medication for a minor ailment the answer is the logic is and again this is not unanimously held many disagree with this but the logic is why don't we allow you to take medication because we're afraid that if we allow you to take medication if you don't have it in stock you'll produce it yourself you'll grind up the herbs that's we're afraid you're going to do that if you're in a state of bahala where you have a pressing need because your head hurts or you're not feeling well so so we're afraid that you're under the Valhalla you're going to produce the medication however if it's preemptive and you're not really under the pressure to produce it we're not really concerned you're going to come to produce it and therefore there is uh perhaps room for leniency that should be discussed with your local uh your personal pricing okay let us now see the gamara discusses excuse me nobody grinds today then they listen it comes in tablet form where it comes in liquid form so it's not applicable today so surely therefore that should not apply one should be allowed to take it in any event okay okay thank you for that question very important who is that I recognize your voice that onto your picture David how are you what's your last name again okay so that's a very important question because it would seem that the whole concern is obsolete nobody nobody produces medication from herbs today you know you get yourself a you have a little bottle of Tylenol Advil and um so it seemed the whole concern is obsolete however this uh decree of the rabbis is still in full force and that is because when the rabbis tell us to avoid something even if the reason given in the talmud does not seem to apply anymore nevertheless one of the ideas is they've only revealed to us one of possibly thousands of reasons of why they forbid this type of activity so even if to our minds it's no longer irrelevant and it's obsolete the decrees still still stands however your point is well taken in that of Usher wise does differentiate between uh rabbinic law where the reason does apply in rabbinical where the reason does not apply namely that under normal circumstances there is no difference whether we think it applies or it doesn't apply we still have to abide by the law however in cases of doubt there is more room for leniency on rabbinic law where the reason does not apply okay so so your point is well taken and it does make a difference but uh under regular scenarios if you if one knows that they have a minor ailment a minor headache and they could certainly wait till after shops to take the Advil and they'll they'll deal with it that's certainly the correct uh the required course of action but there are um one and more borderline cases there's more room for leniency and rabbinical law where the reason does not apply okay let us wood into chips is higher for grinding now the question is why is the gamara talking about Beats I mean who eats beets you know maybe have crane who eats beets why doesn't the camera talk about Peppers uh bananas I don't know why don't talk about celery what's beets so from this camera we see that the definition of grinding is uh bringing things into uh smaller pieces so let's say you grind kernels of wheat into flour you break the kernels down into pieces or you cut vegetables into small pieces So based on this Camara one would think in all circumstances when you cut something if the small pieces that's talking however comes the ritva and the ritva quotes ravino yoina that the prohibition of cutting vegetables into small pieces is only if it's inedible if it's raw a food inedible in its current state then and only then are you high for grinding it but if it's edible like a piece of bread and now you want to chop up your bread into tiny little pieces it's permitted because it's already edible so the ritva is of the opinion that the Issa of toychen only applies in a circumstance where it is inedible so a beat is inedible raw and now that you chop it up it is more edible let's say we'll see and that's when talking applies but if you would want to cut an apple into tiny little pieces or a cucumber into tiny little pieces or a tomato into tiny little pieces it would be mutter according to the ritva and Robin the rambam says as follows one who cuts the vegetable the rambam is someone who cuts the vegetable very very thin to cook it that's a Toda of toy train the rambam adds you're cutting the vegetable extremely thin and then the ramam says one who cuts a vegetable to cook it because tahrina is taking one entity and dividing it into small parts the ramam seems to say that the isser of toiken applies if you're doing it for the sake of cooking that implies your only Kaya for slicing and dicing if it's going to be cooked says the case of mishnah the rambam understands that the reason why the gemara talks about beets is not because beets cannot be eaten raw the reason the gemara talks about Beats according to the rambam is because beets are cut up finely to cook it so according to the rambam you're only if you're going to cook it says the cast of Mission on the other hand it could be the rambam holds that even foods that are eaten raw if you're going to cut into small pieces for cooking that's also awesome so maybe you're doing it for after Shabbos okay that's a minor problem and compared to toy train which Isa that's why they should get chocolate milkshakes before Shabbos so if I if I want to cut up a vegetable into smaller pieces larger well we'll come to that we'll come to that so right now we have two opinions we have the opinion of the ritzvah and Robin that cutting something up is only a problem if it if it cannot be eaten raw the Rama mads that cutting something up is prohibited if it's done for the sake of cooking however the uranium comes and says you should not cut vegetables into small pieces period beets as an example it doesn't matter you do eat it raw you don't eat it raw you cannot cut anything into small pieces so if you cut something into small pieces according to the uranium it is an acidirisa so it would come out like this to cut tomatoes and veg and cucumbers into small pieces according to the Rich Van Robin you can eat it raw it's motor going to the rambam you're not cutting it to cook it it's mutter according to the uranium it's prohibited comes the rajbah and the rajva says furthermore even if you're not cutting it into small pieces you can't cut up a vegetable however says the rajba immediately prior to cutting to eating it you're allowed to cut it up big or small says the Raja the Torah never answered you to start don't eat it this size eat it that size I'm about to eat something I'll eat it the size I want to eat it I according to the rajma immediately prior to eating you're allowed to cut something even to a very small size in advance of eating you can't even cut it into bigger chunks okay now here's a question how do we pass again says we are mahmir on all four sheetais which means number one you can't cut up something that cannot be eaten um raw that you're you're cutting so that it's more edible you cannot cut something up to cook you cannot cook something you're not you can cut something into small pieces and you can cut something into even larger chunks well in advance of eating so the bottom line is if you want to make a salad then you need to do the following two things if you want to make Israeli salad it's going to be chunky it's going to be big pieces of cucumbers and big bigger pieces of tomatoes and you do it right before the meal you can't you know a lot you have these people they're have a lot of anxiety and they start preparing like three hours before the meal and they like to have their salad ready and then they go to Shoal can't do that don't cut up your salad and then go to go to show my salad like I said before the main oinig Shabbos is the cholent not the salad in my house they bring out the salad and everyone else takes the salad and I take the children that's my personal that's my personal Rule and recommendation but uh the bottom line is if you want to make the salad don't cut it up too fine and don't cut it up in advance to the meal what about now we get to the lambdas a little bit more alumnus and then I'm gonna come to um a very interesting Macho like it's between us are you allowed to cut up onions into small pieces for a salad now onions they're edible raw right you could eat an onion Raw it's not typically eaten raw but you definitely cut up onions to put in small pieces of an onion to put in into a salad let's think about the definition of the malacha for a moment in a way involves two components the first component is you take a larger item and you cut it up into smaller items for example you take kernels of grain now you can make flour out of kernels of grain so you're going to slice and dice the kernel and now you have flour you can't make dough from a kernel the net okay so in reality you've done two things number one by cutting up the kernel you've taken a large item and you made it small items but number two you've created a substance that now could be used that in its earlier state it could not be used listen carefully two things are being accomplished by talking number one you have a kernel you have a Beat the kernel is large then you cut it up into 500 particles and secondly now you have something that's usable beforehand the kernel cannot be produced into flour and now the kernel could be made into flour so the question is which element of tahina is the primary element is it taking a large item and breaking it up into small item or is it taking an entity that was unusable and rendering it into a new entity which is now usable is it taking an entity that was unusable rendering usable or is it breaking something up into small particles now the safer uranium who says that cutting up any vegetable into small particles is a problem suggests from sweet kushalepsky it holds that the primary aspect of Trina is breaking something up into small particles regardless of whether you're making it more usable or less usable the primary element of tahrina according to the safety arrayum is taking a large entity and breaking up into small entities the ritva and the rambam on the other hand they hold if what you're producing is something that is more usable now you could cook it now you could do something with it so according to the Iran whenever you cut something into small pieces according to the ritva it's only if oh it's not generally eaten raw so now it's edible or now it's cookable so the argument could be made that if you're going to cut onions into very small pieces while according to the safety raym that would uh maybe be problematic according to the rambam you perhaps would not be able to do it because beforehand the in the state the onion is in nobody is biting out of a raw onion but it sliced and diced you're creating a new entity so maybe the rambam would say that this is somewhat problematic the bottom line is that um when it comes to cutting an onion into small pieces uh one should not cut them too small and uh furthermore here's an interesting between Orbach and reminisce and karelas what is the definition of too small you know when we say don't cut your salad too small how do you define too small so Mazama has a lenient uh criteria of determining what is considered too small and he says the reason is says the Zaman is if you're still going to need your teeth to chew it that's big enough so you say ah that pretty much still allows me to do anything because uh if I'm still gonna need my teeth I'm not obviating the need for chewing then that kind of slicing and dicing is permitted on the other hand a reminiscent disagrees and he says anytime cutting it up into a smaller piece makes it easier to eat that uh that would not be permitted so regarding the question before are you allowed to cut up a vegetable and uh small pieces for an old person to help them eat it on Shabbos um even right before they they eat that should be avoided you could cut up chicken you could cut up eggs you could cut up other things to cut up vegetables that's uh that could be an issue of Tajin I want to conclude by speaking at a very interesting Michael I guess between the uh you have a banana you want to take a Fork and mash the banana so you're taking one entity and you're put your your breaking it down is that grinding is that Lush we're gonna see there's next week where to take small particles and to connect it together with the liquid let's say you have flour and you want to create dough so you're going to mix it with water and now the flour is going to dissolve that is Lush so can you take a banana or my favorite food avocado you wanna smash it now I'm not talking about whipping it with lemon juice and mayonnaise that's a separate China entirely I'm just talking about mashing a vegetable where the natural juices of that vegetable will help form a mush has a very interesting chuva ramosha says it's motor wait a second if I can cut a carrot into small pieces why am I allowed to mash a banana says of moisture that the definition of is only when you chop and you reduce an item into small pieces or small particles however if you're not reducing it to small particles you're just changing it from a solid to a mush that is it's a very big the same thing would be uh with avocado or it could even know it's going to a Maisha uh a potato that's cooked you want to mash it because it's still a solid Mass it's not individual particles and the certainly you could rely on the opinion of ramasha Feinstein the khazonish on the other hand held this was the very definition and this is the quintessential form of typhen this is the most the greatest example of torchen because you're breaking it down so completely that it's transforming now if you want to be Consciousness you want to mash a banana or a potato or a avocado you could do with a Shino you could do with the back of the back of the spoon um but certainly reminds us could I listen rely on that that is not concerned the definition of is to take a entity and break it down into particles but Carter motion mashing a banana or the like is not considered a violation of Titan okay so I have uh just two brief announcements to make if anybody wants to help support the shimro project which is uh ultimately they have a team of um producing the material it's going to be published as a safer if anybody wants to participate in this great project of Albert says Torah please contact us if somebody wants to sponsor a malacha in the safer please contact us also tonight there is a special uh event a uh on shots illuminated um a review a review course on Hillcrest focusing on it's nine o'clock you could get it on the shots illuminated website or you could get it on uh this Zoom Channel or on our website Rabbi dg.com so if you live in athlete you only have to wake up at 4 a.m in the morning if you want to catch it if you live in Kew Garden Hills you uh 9 pm is much more convenient time but it will be available afterwards um so that's very important and we're going to be discussing some of the laws of tarasana that are affected in the covet era thank you everyone for joining bezel sham see you next week okay excuse me it's telephone it's just not applying just to vegetables doesn't it applied to all foods okay so talking applies to anything that grows from the ground however what the definition of that is uh we didn't unfortunately get into that today so um so um basically we say as follows that generally if something doesn't grow from the ground token does not apply unless they're inedible unless they're excuse me inedible because if they're inedible then grinding it improves it so in general uh chopping up something that doesn't grow from the ground is okay unless it's inedible and then you can't do it so much we give an example if you wanted to file metal you couldn't do that so well metal you could make the case comes from the ground but foods that grow from the ground are in a different category of and that's the category we spoke about today uh to next week bezel sham will speak about possibly the tuna fish and the egg salad [Music] you've just experienced another Torah class brought to you by torahanytime.com