Shalom Bayis Panel - Rabbi Daniel Coren, Moshe Zev Lamm and Rabbi Simcha Berger at Scheiner's Shul

Welcome everyone. I first want to just thank the people who organized this. Masadrim Shalom basis The warm shiver room Michelle Allen the world the Shana Kadisha the fact that we have the opportunity to bring the brain is shown in our house is something which is the core of Yiddish kite. So to have a panel so that we can get together and be able to hear words of his up to be able to answer questions to be able to ask questions to take the time out. That's enough of a reason to say thank you. For those of you who would like to sit in a place where the machitza is up, there's area over here. You feel that you want we wanted to have an area open so that our notions that Kanye should be able to see, but if you want a place to sit behind a machitza, there is an area over here. We're going to spend the first part of today's discussion with questions to the panel to our two rabbonim to have a corn schlieter and to have a Moshe zev schlieter of lamb schlieter and then we'll spend the last 15 minutes fielding some questions for anybody who would like to ask. Before I begin before they begin this week's parsha says Rivka didn't understand what was going on by Taylor lead race S Hashem. By Taylor lead race she went to the base madrish to shame the ever to be dairish to ask. It's the first time the Torah Kadisha says clearly specifically that somebody came and he saw My Rabbi said that's what's happening right here. How appropriate in this week's parsha the oilum It's a shame. The oilum is becoming men and women men women they came literally as a sham. Amazing. So before we begin with the questions I'd like to ask maybe if the two if if Rabbi Corin and Rabbi maybe just like to give a little bit of an introduction or just a message about marriage and about shalom bayis and then we'll get into the questions and like I said and then hopefully we'll save some time about 15 minutes for a Q&A for some questions and answers from the oilum. Okay Rabbi Corin. Am I using that or am I using this? Whatever the Is this actually uh It's fine. Rabbi Burger first of He mommies took the words out of my mouth but they look good as a sham. I don't think there's um probably a better way to describe I don't need a photo. Yes sir. Okay. And yes we first want to thank the all the my arganim and my asphim and everyone here. We shall see how the shamayim we should be able to say the word of a sham say that we just say a sham. So definitely I think the um in today's world I usually when I have a chasan and I try to meet the kallah together so they I always tell them the I would say the 90% maybe 99% of success in a marriage is going to be if they have a rav and I would definitely say and a good therapist. So you're already starting with the a good combination. And I I say to to the couple, don't wait till you need or you think you need a rav. I'm always amazed and inspired and lately I have this much more often that couples, whether it's from Monroe or whether it's from It doesn't matter. New York, Queens, London, and they'll turn to me and say, "We decided we want to have a rav." And what's amazing, I recently pointed out is that the source of a sayder khala, the concept of having a rabbi, so it's a mission in perky avos. But where do we learn that from? So we recently had a haftorah with isha shunamis. Isha shunamis is actually the most interesting discourse and interaction between a husband and wife. I said jokingly that the Sefardim end the haftorah when isha shunamis basically tells the husband, "I'm going to see a rebbe." They had trouble in the house, a tragedy. The husband turns to the wife and says, So what does the wife respond? Shalom. Goodbye. I said that's where the Sefardim I jokingly jokingly said, "This is where the conversation ends." But really in a much deeper level, it's an incredible um I would say a khidush that sometimes people think a sayder khala because it says a say, it doesn't mean a wife. It's really sourced from isha shunamis, fellow playing. And I pointed out another important point is that there's a school, even in Monsey, baruch Hashem. I don't know how many schools do this, but they encourage the girls already in high school to ask shailos. To ask I know it's a little bit shocking even with tax. It's actually a girl that not so long ago I went to her wedding simply because she asked me to her high school and she said thank you for for the address. So the concept of having a rub is so crucial. And not because I'm looking for more There's no time but at the same time a person a couple has to know that if they want to be successful they have to have a rub and then hopefully the rub is smart enough to know someone like Moshe Zev. So that's my introduction. Okay yes, you can have it. Thank you. Okay rub my shoes off. This is not working. I think you will share. Hi good morning everybody. Um First let me just express my confusion. I showed up this morning cuz I wanted to hear my husband speaking and then they told me I have to speak instead of him. Don't worry maybe. I have to readjust. Um but we did Seriously though that that it's it's it's a real it's a blessing to be here. It's a blessing to talk about shalom bayit. Just just being able to get up in front of people and talk about shalom bayit is a tremendous blessing. So thank you for having me here. Um one idea I want to put out there just in terms cuz I think it's an idea that's not always stressed in terms of marriage. Um but it's so so fundamental and I'm probably going to refer back to this idea in in I don't I mean some of the some of the Q&A that's going to happen. But the idea is we all everybody looks at marriage as as this thing about connection. Everybody talks about connection connection connection. So what is what is there's something we're missing if we only talk about connection cuz what does connection mean? Connection means that I am connected to you. There's there's there's two individuals over here. Which means that in a marriage it's not only important to connect it's important to be me. In general and and that part is missed in marriage. In general if I want to connect how do we connect in the world? I can connect I can walk into shul and I everybody. Look I have a white shirt and I have the black pants, I have a little beard, black yarmulke. I could I I belong. I can connect everybody. I can get my kids into any yeshiva in Monsey. Wow. What what if Impressive. What if What if you know, I but that wasn't it's not me. What if me is a pink flower shirt with sandals? I can do that, but then I lose a lot of my connections. Maybe my wife and kids. I I I could So, so I have to we all we navigate in life. In life, we're always we're always walking this tightrope. I want to be me, I want to connect. I want to be me, I want to connect. So, we always put up a little bit, just a little bit of this I can't walk out in the street and show 100% of me if I want to connect. So, I can show 50% of me and then I can connect. But what about the other 50%? It just has to kind of stay in the background. And then I because if you saw the other 50%, you're going to run away from me. That's okay. In life, that's okay. And that's the way it should be. Um but in marriage when when we have a marriage like that, there's something missing in the marriage. If I feel I can only show up as 50% of me in the marriage, that's a good thing. So, now 50% of you is relating to 50% of me. And then they show up in a therapist's office and say, "I'm feeling lonely." Marriage is not just about connecting. Because I mean, it is all about connecting, but marriage is about allowing the safety for me to be me and for you to be you. Because if I if I can show up fully as me and you can show up fully as you we can we we can really connect. In order to do that, we need to create a safety for each other. I need to feel that I can I can I can show up and you'll you'll you'll be okay with who I am. And you have to feel that you can show up and I'll be okay with who you are. That's allowing each other allowing each other the safety to show up in a marriage is so so important. It's just an idea that I wanted to put out there that I think I think is missed sometimes in the discussion of marriage. So, Okay. Okay, yes akaya. Yes akaya. Okay, thanks to those two introductions. Now let's get down to the meat and potatoes. Okay, we'll start with an easy question. Okay? Um Is it healthy to live in the same community with your in-laws? No, actually that's not so easy. So we're going to save that for later. Well, how about we do that? Like that one, yeah. You want me to start with that? Okay, Rabbi Korn. Is it healthy to live in the same community with your in-laws? Now this goes both ways because the dream of every parent who has children would love their children to live close by. It creates such a family unity. Does it? Here you go, Rabbi. I think this works, right? Look at this host that works. I think you can take that. No, actually what The reason why I jumped at this at this question, Rabbi, is as many of you know, my in-laws come to me from Eretz Yisrael half a year. So uh so the truth is that uh and this is exactly it's public. So first of all, for me it's uh an incredible pleasure. Incredible pleasure. It does remind me of the famous uh Yankel Miller's famous joke um that when uh the mother-in-law showed up to the son-in-law's house and uh the son-in-law was so excited to see his wife his mother-in-law and he asked her, "How long are you planning on staying?" And the mother-in-law said, "As long as you want me to stay." And the son-in-law said, "You're not even going to stay for some coffee?" So I once had the courage to tell this to my mother-in-law, I think. And the reason why is because Hashem has such a incredible in-laws. So, when they come, it's it's an incredible pleasure. However, the question is a very important question because not everyone has it, so to speak, so easy. And so, to live in the same community would one do that in the hot weather? I think it very much depends on the relationship. And I think going back a little bit to what you said in a little bit of the introduction, I'm just going to maybe add a a facet to that. And that is I find in relationships, whether it's between a husband and wife or whether it's between the husband and the in-laws or the same thing as the the daughter and the and her in-laws, is how real are we in our in our relationship? So, maybe Moses just I'm just really taking a step from using what you you said. In a relationship, if it's a healthy relationship, so husband and wife know exactly where each one is standing. They know their triggers. They know they know each other and they respect each other and they give that space and safety. A relationship and people that have such a we'll call it the ability and and the place to to be to be in such a place, it's much more shy to have any relationship. That's what I think humbly I I think it exists. So, even in having a in-laws close by, it very much depends on the relationship. It depends on how a person knows about themselves, knows about their in-laws, and based on that, a person can make a healthy decision. Would you have Do you want to feel that question as well or should we um I'm I'm not going to feel the question. I think I record and feel that very well. I just want to add one thing. I'm looking around the room and seeing that the question could be asked from two sides. And I'm I'm looking at the ages of some of you in the audience. Right, in-laws. It's a question to ask in-laws, also. And as in-laws, we need to ask that question to ourselves, also. That's just what I wanted to add. Isn't that I I will say as a rav, I have a message for all of my balabattem who marry off children. It's straight into the point. When your kids get married and you want them to come over with their amiclah, you open your hands and you shut your mouth. Because as soon as you start giving opinions, Right. it might go the wrong way. So, there's where Chazal said shiyog lechachma shtika. Have to learn how to be quiet because chalila, saying the wrong thing can cause unfortunate repercussions. So, you're both so right that it's a double-edged question and it requires, of course, the respect first and foremost for the couple and understanding that the couple's relationship is important and in a healthy situation, there's selflessness. As parents, I think we're all you you mentioned we all have beards, right? But at this stage, sometimes you want to shave it off cuz it's all white. But having our kinderlach, seeing them in love with each other and being able to step back and appreciate that and just be an observer and not feeling the need to participate is a very healthy place that every single parent and in-laws have to take understanding and being happy with their happiness and being able to extract oneself from that relationship in the way that they don't need to give aces anymore. They'll figure it out themselves. And if they can, if they have a question, they'll come ask you or they'll go to their rov or they'll go to their therapist. I just wanted to add one more thing. However, I coin said about a rov, I believe I didn't clear this with you, but I'm going to put it out there. I believe that as important as it is to have healthy rabbonim a healthy relationship with rabbonim, it's also very important for rebbetzins to get involved. Men need rabbonim, women need rebbetzins because there's a way that men can connect to each other that's exclusively the way men talk. And there's an understanding of how women can understand each other. When you have that healthy Torah perspective where a rebbetzin can take a position where she can guide those people who are asking her, that is sometimes much more on the dot. It's so much more they connect so much better. So yes, it's true that the family has to have a rov, but in addition, very, very often women need rebbetzins to be able to help them in their issues. Okay. So, um Rav um Rav Moshe Zev, couple comes and tells us we disagree on so many chinuch issues. How do they handle that? So, I I I think the first thing to realize when you talk about chinuch issues, and there's there's real issues that people come in with. There's real disagreements. I hold like this, I hold like that. And this this issue What I'm about to say is not to say that these issues don't have to be worked through, they do. But before we sit down to work them through, there's something that I think as as as parents we need to remember. Um I've had very few clients come into my office with pain and suffering because their parents didn't agree on chinuch or pain and suffering because their parents didn't have the right chinuch. No, I I actually I've never had a client that came in and said, you know, I I suffered so much cuz my mother didn't go to Rebbetzin Spetner and she didn't do all the all the all the all the chinuch classes. That's not what what That's not what hurts people growing up. What hurts people growing up is the shalom bayis in the house. And it's so sad to see how much people fight over chinuch issues, destroy the shalom bayis, and destroy the very chinuch that they're trying that they're that they're striving for. So, the first thing to remember when you're when you're arguing over a chinuch issue is the the most important outcome of this conversation There is a there's a there is a very important outcome. This this is Should Should our Should we treat our child like this? Should we treat our child like that? That's the second most important outcome. The first most important outcome is is that our shalom bayis going to survive this this argument so that our kids can grow up in a home where where there's where there's shalom bayis. Um Once you have that, now you can get into the argument. And I I And I think I think First of all, we're talking about a rav and a rabbetzin. I I I think that is critical. I think that's critical. Um People come in chinuch issues are very often not really chinuch issues. Very often it's I'm coming in with, you know, it's not it's not a shitta and a hashkafa as much as it is who I am, how I grew up, who you are, how who you grew up. And And because of that, having a third person to to discuss to discuss this with is is critical. Having having a rov or not a therapist, therapist is just there to help them talk to each other, but someone who can actually give them guidance. This this is you know, you grow up like this, you grow up like this, but let me give let me give you a perspective on this. And having a person that that can have a perspective is also important. That's number two. Number three is in the conversation itself, um I I think it's so important for people to remember that we're going to we're going to have to fight this out. That's okay. Husbands and wives can fight out, you know. And remember remember the first part that shown by is most important. Remember that if we try to fight it out and it doesn't work, we have a rov or a representative to go to. But in the conversation itself, we really have to remember that we may it's so important I I I think I want you to hear me and you want me to hear you. I think I think with the golden rule of communication is if I want you to hear me, I need to hear you first. And if you want me to hear you, I need to hear you first. It's It's Let me explain to you why this is what's best for us on this is what's best for us. Let me Let me explain to you. Let Let Let Let me You don't let the And And Wait a second. But But I I never heard you. I never heard what you had to say. So, you might ask So, so who hears who first? That's what husbands and wives should be fighting about. No, let me hear you first. No, let me hear you first. That's That's really what the fight should be. But when you have a conversation where I really want to sit and listen to your issues and you may find a lot of issues are not really issues. It's fears. It's It's It's It's It's security. It's It's What What happens if What happens if this happens? What happens if that happens? Memories from my own childhood, fears from my own childhood. When you really listen to each other, you you have a whole different conversation. And I think those those are the Those are the I guess the three things that I think are most important in this conversation. Speak more into the Okay. That's your koach. Speak more into the mic? Yeah. The The request was to speak more into the mic. Yes. Rabbi Corin, families love to have company. Oh, I didn't ask, did you want to Did you want to talk about the question? Uh you know, I'm just going to be mostly one thought. Okay. Moshe Zev said something Does anyone Can you hear on the on the other side cuz we hear it so loud. You could You can't? By show of hands, you could hear? Okay, good. Many years ago, I was zocheh really when I was starting off I was in the '20s I was able to be close to someone by the name of Shmuel Stauber a zech tzaddik divrei chaim Some of you old and have white beards may remember him. Very very special you And very hard to get remember remember you? Anyway, he was very known and he was an expert in what's called the Imago therapy. And um when I just got married he certainly encouraged me and my wife to do his course and I gained so much. We actually were writing a safer with the sources in in in Chumash for Imago therapy. Believe it or not, I still have some of the notes but we we never we never zocheh to to finish. But it's incredible first of all Imago therapy if you Google or you research is really built on three steps. It's called mirroring, validation and empathy. Like I said, I'm the rabbis so I'm trying to stay away from the actual therapy itself. I do that more and more often that the therapy itself I give to Moshe Zev and other good therapists. But this part which Moshe Zev just raised is so crucial and it's so based on chazal that it doesn't even start by the way people think it starts when you get married. It starts when you're a sibling, it starts when you're a child. It starts when you are in the basement and you have a chavrusah. I'm sure you've seen two guys in the in in in Beis Medrash arguing out a svara. And that argument, by the way, I always I get nervous. Like I always tell my I was telling my my students in Yeshiva when I used to speak at in the residence cuz Yeshiva I used to say, "If I'm looking for a shidduch, I'm not even going to the Beis Medrash. I'm going to the basketball court. See if they know how to play ball." And really, I don't care if they are able to play. Well, maybe I do a little bit cuz I like basketball, right, Dovid? But as long as they as long as they pass. Exactly, very good. But even much more than that, you go to the basketball court, you will see very quickly who has middos, who doesn't have middos. Who's able to speak things out, who's able to get angry and ready to kill someone else, literally. So, I wanted to point this out is that the conversations that take place between a husband and wife, whether it's about chinuch or or whatever the topic is. When I learned this methodology of mirroring validation, and basically what it means is the following. It's chazarah. What do you see it in chazarah? There's halacha and Shulchan Aruch. That when you have mamesh like here, a Beis Din of dayanim, the gemara says a dayan, after he hears the other dayan, has to say over what the dayan just said. Don't give your Don't give your opinion first. Here, after you heard, tell me what he said. Cuz everyone knows, especially the women know, that even if the zechus that the husband actually listens to the wife, when the wife asks the husband to repeat what she said, the husband has suddenly short-term memory. Maybe he's zocheh to say half half the the point that the wife said. I'm getting I'm saying in general. Where do we see this mommies in Hazal even war? The Gamara says we pass him like this Hillel over Bet Shammai. So the Gamara says not because Bet Hillel are smarter than Bet Shammai, but because they used to say over Bet Shammai's opinion and then say their opinion. I promise you, I usually don't promise after class, but if you want to have a relationship, I I I would say 99% this is one of the keys of relationship. First see, and I'm told I'm not just in terms of husband and wife. This is any employees, have roosters, see if when you hear your have rooster or your spouse say something, just say, "One second, I want to see what you just said. I want to make sure I got it." You get this meter, it changes everything. And that's just the first step. When you get the validation, it's unbelievable. And I always use, it's funny to use this, but I I've experienced it the most with T-Mobile. So this goes back many years ago where I had a Blackberry. Anyone knows what a Blackberry is? With the tiny little letters or whatever, I mom I killed my thumbs. And I remember that I had arranged I was really traveling, I think with laser, and I had arranged that they're going to change that be able to have my phone working. And wherever I was, in some probably Africa or something. And when I got there, it wasn't working. And of course what do you do? You get upset. All my shylas and all my videos, who knows what's, you know, the whole world's falling apart because my phone's not working. So forget about it, Mona, it's another subject. But I called them up, and I remember the lady on the phone, when I started complaining, instead of responding with whatever she was normally I would expect, she said, "Wow, let me get this. You're in Africa and your phone is not working and you really expected it to work. I'm like, yes. And it must be so difficult if it's not working for you, especially when you had expectations. I'm like, yes, thank you. By then, I wasn't angry anymore. She was my best friend. Where do you think she got it from? She got it from From me? From me there's got to be something open up in there. Or they trained T-Mobile very well. I remember this like yesterday because it made such an impression on me. So, I'm just I just wanted to add that in the kuda. You can't imagine if you would just take this meter alone, what it does in a relationship. Yeah, sure you can. Rabbi, can I can I come to the class, please? Sure, it's free. Go ahead. I I just want to comment on two things that Rabbi Carlebach said. Not comment, just be my self. First of all, the mirroring is, you know, saying back what what you heard from your spouse. So, this this is a basic therapy technique. And it's amazing how many times, I would say more often than not, the person doing the mirroring gets it wrong. So, so when you're doing this and your spouse is saying, "So, what you said was." And they get it wrong. Don't go, "Oh, come on, this is not what I This is like Yeah, this is the process." Is it The second The second thing I want to comment on is I I love the basketball base managers muscle. That that was brilliant. I'm going to use that. I hope you don't mind. Not passing. But, you know, if you want to know who this person is, go look at the basketball court, not not the not the base managers. But, I I want to I just add one thing to that. When we get married, it's not it's not just who you're looking for when you get married. When we get married we're dating. And in the process of dating, we're not on the base managers, we're on the basketball court. We're having fun. We're having a good time. We're smoozing with each other. We're smoozing with each other. We're we're having a great time. We're having fun. That's how the relationship is built. It's built on the basketball court. I see who this person is playing basketball. I see who that person is playing basketball, and that's how the relationship is built. And then we get married, and we go to the base managers. And somehow we think that this relationship is going to work. After you get married, you have to keep on playing basketball. Yes, Shakaya. Yes, Shakaya, thank you. Rabbi Corin, we live in a world where we love to have guests. We love to have guests. It's a mitzvah of hachnasat orchim. What are the healthy boundaries when families eat together? Tzniut and etc. Can you please discuss that with us, please? So, this definitely is one of the most complicated complicated questions. And you know, you could look at it from the perspective of mitzvah. Happens to be that the Moshe Feinstein, zechut tzadik livracha, points out that when you invite someone that technically is your neighbor, they have a home, they have a meal, you don't have a mitzvah of hachnasat orchim. I'm sorry to shock everyone. The Moshe, interestingly enough, says you make a mitzvah of hachnasat orchim when you're driving up uh West Maple and you see someone outside and it's raining or even not raining, and um he's not your type, but he's looking for a ride, the Moshe paskins in Choshen Mishpat, that's a mitzvah of hachnasat orchim. So, today being a mitzvah of hachnasat orchim is very different. On the other hand, the Gemara says, "Ein ani ela bedaas." There is no greater poverty than the poverty of the mind. I say this many times because there's a Zohar, quite a scary Zohar. The Zohar says that and and on Shabbos the Zohar points out that Shabbos and especially Yom Tov, not having a neem by your meal is dangerous. It's not a good thing. You have to have a neem by your meal. Now, today in in the old days, everyone knows, you'd go to the shul and there'd be people sleeping in the shul. And you would invite them cuz they really don't have a home and they don't have a place to eat. Now, we are in a very special shul. We have to thank Hashem and we have to thank uh Layzer and Heather Scheiner. This is such a unique shul that in this shul you could find and I have had such instances where taka people uh meshulachim come from Eretz Yisrael and they're taka sleeping in on the chairs. So, I but I would still say it's not so common. So, I always felt like how we mikayem this Zohar of making sure that you're having a neem by your by your table? So, there's two ways. One way is to make sure that you give tzedakah before Yom Tov and maybe before every Shabbos the Kupa Shel Tzedakah and the local and my Kupa. The Kupa of tzedakahs. It's Mamesh uh I think that's a crucial action that a person should be should be used to. That's number one. But I feel also that there's a different type of poverty. A different type of aniyim that maybe Chazal are referring to. And that's aniyim b'daas. So, when you invite someone whether you are from the perspective of a rabbi or no, you're trying to give chizuk or you're really trying to be mischazek together. If one the couple has that attitude from the beginning it actually changes everything. So, it's not just about let's just get together and see how much we could drink. Which I'm sure we'll get to that heated topic of drinking. But when a couple decides and and I would say that that's probably uh you know, they say in the basketball as as basketball is as you know is my as you see is my favorite, but they say the best offense No, the best defense is a good offense. I think they use it interchangeably, but this is what I recall. If a couple already has a plan, what is our tachlis when what why why are we inviting the neighbors? Why are we inviting this couple and not that couple? And there's already a machshava a spiritual machshava, I think that alone already creates a healthy boundaries a health a a healthy I would say protection. And then you can get into the details, which I think every couple and maybe sometimes you need to speak it out even with the rav of what's okay to say, what's not okay to say. I I think that that's already details. I think the first place is to really have clear what our goal is when we're inviting someone. I was just going to I was going to add add one thing. I think a a large part of these kind of the discussions between the husband and wife about what's the appropriateness of this and what's the inappropriateness of this very often is a cultural difference that shows that shows up. And the couple are sitting there arguing over who's right and who's wrong. And they're both they're both right in their in their culture. In my family this was always done. In my family this was always done or or and it's just important to be aware of that. It's not a right-wrong conversation. It's what's best for us and how we can navigate this. And it it it's when when couples are yelling at each other, you know, you're right. No, no, you're wrong. No, you're wrong. That conversation is not going anywhere. You need You need to take a step back and say, "So, what do we want to do?" And and maybe your rav is going to be part of that conversation, but it's a what do we want to do conversation as opposed to whose culture is correct. Okay, one yes Shakaya. Um in what in the question about boundaries, so Rabbi Quarrel addressed the mindset. Is there anything to say about how people are sitting at the table meaning men across from women, referring to someone's spouse by their first name? The rub didn't talk about that. Is that because it's cultural or are there clear lines that someone else's rebetzin shouldn't be called by her first name or husbands and wives that mean you shouldn't be sitting across from someone else if that's not your wife. Is that something that we can 100% I think I think the rabbi Rabbi Schlesinger um definitely wants us to be tactless. So we're going to speak very much tactless. That's what we try to do to be very honest. I deal with a lot of couples. Together with what Moshe Zev said I think. And yeah, there could be a lot of trouble that will emanate when couples are too close. So for this conversation is crucial. I think like Moshe Zev said it does many times uh cross between halakhic versus cultural. So certainly someone that grew up in Hasidic they they they're sitting usually with a mechitza between if there's a couple. So there has to be first of all I think um really to assess with the rub probably what for this couple is going to be the healthiest medium. I think also it depends of course who you're dealing with. Um is this a cure like I said you know besides the mindset just the practical applications. So definitely um to get a little bit at the details could be lengthy but just to get simple guidelines. There has to be a place where the couple understands that there's at least some distance. And the second that distance is starting to break away, then things have to be done. You have to pull away. You have to create more boundaries. And sometimes that before things get really out of hand and unfortunately create terrible results, you have to be real with yourself. Sometimes a couple has to say, "You know what? We're too close. We're too close for comfort." And then we have to figure out is there a way to pull back in a healthy way or not. Sometimes that's that's crucial. So, yeah, my wife and I many times if we have guests, the seating arrangement will be based on what's a healthy who should be across from who. And I know it's the reference to each other. It's an amazing I think I think it works incredibly, but it doesn't sound always easy to refer to someone to to a misses instead of calling the person by the name. I think it's a great guideline. It doesn't always happen. But especially if the both couples are men and they know that this is a healthy protective measure. It is brought down in the Torah. So, even shalom aleichem technically you're not supposed to say shalom aleichem to a woman. But that already someone another person already discussed that our languages also have changed meaning the Russian word chiba of how we address each other. Shalom aleichem is not the way seems to be used to be. Shalom aleichem was a very powerful expression. It's almost today when you pass someone you say, "How are you?" And that's the shalom aleichem. There's no response even. How are you? How are you? Exactly. So, a real a real shalom aleichem, a real connection through shalom aleichem doesn't really exist whatever at least I don't see usually. So, there's there's a way. But I think a couple the more I don't think in this regard you're going to lose out from being machmir. Again, that's what I think, but it has to be done of course with shalom. If the purpose is to create shalom and connection, so it has to be. So those are the some of the guidelines that I think definitely we are healthy place to start. Reb Moishe Zev, we live in a world where so many people have smartphones and devices that are unfortunately unfiltered. I just want to say, we talk about shalom bayis and we talk about chinuch. I heard a shocking statistic. It's not the subject, but I think it's a mitzvah of parsum that for a yeshiva bochur, the first exposure to inappropriate material in 90% of the cases will be on their mother's unfiltered phone. A bochur will get a hold of the phone. Mom doesn't have a filter sometimes dad doesn't and that will be their first exposure. So it's extremely important. I want to take this opportunity to say that it's not a hefker velt and even if you yourself have the power and the koach to not look at things one shouldn't, you never know who might be taking that device. Because if it falls in the hands of someone else and you don't even know, you're mamish unfortunately ruining chas v'shalom the purity and the innocence of a young child. Having said that, Reb Moishe Zev, here's an easy one for you. How does watching inappropriate material affect a marriage? First of all, that that that the that you just quoted should be plastered all over the place. That that is so important, so powerful, and so scary. It's uh Um the question is how does inappropriate material affect the marriage? Um first thing that's really important to remember is that reality can never ever compete successfully with fantasy. Um A marriage is like I said before, um the whole me is connecting to the whole you. Hopefully. Hopefully I can get it, you know, the goal is to get to a place where all of me can connect with all of you, but all of me includes all my faults, includes laundry, includes finances, includes screaming kids, it includes um uh eating habits, it includes struggles with weight, it includes a whole bunch of things that fantasy doesn't include. Um nobody's coming into a bedroom, so I'm going to be a little explicit, but nobody's coming into a bedroom with a with a with a airbrush touching up all the imperfections on my spouse, which is what happens in the fantasy world. Um fantasy can never compete with reality, and what's what's what's what's happening is once you allow yourself once you allow yourself to step into the world of fantasy, you're creating a situation that's that's really impossible. It's not something that your spouse can ever ever compete with. Um that's that's that's that I think that's that's one of the most important things to remember. A spouse is real, fantasy is not. Um so so what it the question is how does it how does it impact? What it does what I what I seen it do is it it brings into the into the married life certain expectations that are just not real, they're not part of reality. Uh when people have you said inappropriate material when when but there's other there's other things. People have inappropriate relationships such as an affair. An affair is 3% of me interacting with 3% of you. The other 97% is is is gone. And and as soon as at the as soon as it goes from 3% to 4% usually the affair is over because because it's not it's not reality. So, inappropriate material the I think the main reason why we want to keep that out of our lives in a marriage is because it sets up a it sets up an expectation of of marriage. We're taking this marriage which is supposed to be real connection. Real connection means 100% of me connecting to 100% of you. And we're saying and now the person looks at his wife or looks at her husband and says, "I really want 3% of me to connect to 3% of you." And that's it creates a reality in the marriage that's that's just not not attainable. And even if it is attainable it's only attainable for 3%. It ruins it ruins the rest of the marriage. It ruins the rest of There's another piece here in terms of things that give me pleasure. Don't allow me cocaine. What's wrong with cocaine? One of the problems with cocaine is one of the many problems but one of one of the problems is it or heroin or things like that. Like what's wrong? I want to enjoy myself. One of the problems with enjoying yourself in a fantasy realm is when we come into the real world a big part of the the enjoyment that we have in the real world is not the enjoyment of physical pleasure. It's the enjoyment of values. It's the enjoyment of of when when when we connect when a husband and wife connect they're connecting at a very deep level hopefully. They're connecting their values are connecting. Their their their souls are connecting. It doesn't carry with it if that has to compete with physical pleasure. If I'm sitting there eating if we if we serve dessert first. If I'm sitting there eating all kinds of desserts all kinds of cakes and then they come out with a piece of chicken. I'm not interested in the chicken. But, the chicken is really what's going to really what I want. You ask my neshama what I want, if you ask my my nefesh elokus what I want, I want the chicken. Yeah, maybe I'll have a little bit of dessert at the end, but I want the chicken. I want I want to be healthy I want to be healthy person. I want to have a healthy relationship. I want to have a relationship that's real. I want to have I want to have a deep connection. None of these All these things, inappropriate material, and any really pulls us away from the ability to connect to our spouse in that way. Okay? As Shiko Yev, Rebbe Corin, this was actual question that came not so long ago. A A woman A husband and wife were out. And the woman asked her husband, "Can you get me that that chocolate?" It didn't have a hechsher on it. But, she wanted it anyway. The rov was called. I'm calling the rov. Should he buy that for her or not? What's going on in this question? This is for me? This is it? You can pass. I think this is a very very important question. Of course, there's the halachic part, which I get quite often. Are you allowed to get something that's oser for someone for someone else? That's That's already a very halachic question. There's There's two levels. There's what's called lifnei iver. That means technically, if stop if she could get, let's call it this the chocolate, so then there's no lifnei iver. So, then really what's left is what's called midrabannan mesaya, which means midrabannan, you You to try to stop someone from doing something that's not healthy, that's not the right that's us sir. And since it's actually very appropriate cuz this morning I was going to speak logically the famous child if someone comes to your house and they're not religious and you want to offer them a drink but you know they're not going to make a brocha. So it's going to have to be to say now that I give something to someone that's not going to make a brocha. Zalman Auerbach said the topic of brocha is famous response to this. And there's chuva he writes that if the whole concept is lifnei iver is causing someone a stumbling block well if you can have an irreligious Jew come to your house he's a he's an electrician and you're not going to offer him a cup of water you're going to alienate him so much that there'll be much bigger lifnei iver. This is his side. So I think in in certainly in when it comes to couples or any relationship he was speaking specifically about a couple if you're going to put your foot down you know in a very stark way and say us sir lifnei iver or lafu shimin aiso whatever you're going to say and it's going to alienate and really lead to not a good place where the the couple is going to be that's not the right methodology. The real methodology is to first of all like Moshe Zev said before understand where my wife is holding where I'm holding and really try to help each other. I would even suggest so logically it's not so difficult to say look probably this is something that you shouldn't eat but if this is where you're holding right now I'm with you. And then what I would suggest and I I tell this to all couples I don't think there's anything more powerful in any relationship especially a couple relationship, is knowledge. You know, even intimacy, I heard this from R' Shmuel Stauber. He used to say intimacy is into me see. Which really where where does that come from? It comes from Yediah. Yediah means that the ultimate intimacy intimacy is is knowing each other. And the ultimate intimacy with our relationship with Hashem is the same thing. Vayeda Adam es Ishto. The Yediah is is a Chibbur. It's a connection. So, if I want to grow with my wife, if I'm just going to scream at her, I can't believe that you're eating that kosher. I can't believe where Where did you grow up? Must be your mom's fault, you know. Whatever all the things that basically escalate from there. But instead say, you know, let's get a book and study and understand why it's even important to eat kosher. You'll be shocked how many times couples, it could be it doesn't matter what stage you are at, when you decide, let's learn about the topic. And sometimes I've had this many times that the couple will say, let's go to the rabbi and just hear out what's wrong with birth control, not birth control, cocaine, not cocaine. What's it called now? What's the most famous thing now? Uh We can't discuss it at the time. Um I can't even think right now. What? Ayahuasca, thank you. See? Yes, Ayahuasca. Not Ayahuasca. With therapy, without therapy, with rabbi, without rabbi, all the different shailas. At the end of the day, if the couple is on the same team and saying, let's really investigate what Hashem how Hashem would look at this, it changes everything. And there's much more potential. You'll You'll definitely have much more chances of inspiring your wife to eat kosher than to just scream and say, "Assur." So, hopefully that give a little bit of a guidance. Yeah, Shkoyach. I Do you want to Do you want to add something to Go ahead. As well, I I love that insight. I mean, it's it's it's It's a beautiful way of looking at it. I just want to add to that. So, what does the conversation look like afterwards? And I think I think what you were touching on with the client is is what I mentioned earlier, the safety to to be me. I mean, it's it's We could look at this if if my wife asked me to buy a tray for candy, I could look at this as, "Oh my god, I can't believe what happened." Or I could look at it as, "She's showing up in a genuine way to me, and here's an opportunity to create safety for her to show up to me that way." And and the question to be asked afterwards is not this this is not so much to why are you doing that, but what's what's going on? And and just approaching it from that place. Okay, yes, I will I agree with with both of you. I I will add, no buts, I will add that there's three points. The woman asked him to buy the candy, didn't mean that she was going to eat it. It's obviously a test. Because there's maybe a feeling of insecurity. So, I asked the husband, "Are you always on the same level of Is there Has this difference always existed?" The person said to me, "Actually, when we got married, we weren't keeping Shabbos." So, I said, "Oh, so you changed." So, she might be feeling a little bit insecure and really not asking, "Can you buy me the candy?" She's asking, "Do you still value me?" Deep. What's behind the question? And very often in couples, what you hear the spouse saying, what you hear the other person saying is not really the question. There's really something a level or two way below that. And making sure that the foundation is strong, making sure as as Rebbetzin as you said, to continue playing basketball, to continue that part of the relationship into the marriage. I want to share one thought and then we're going to take some questions and answers. The closest person in our lives should be our spouse. There is relation There are relationships that we have, our children, our parents. Those are blood relationships. Of course we're very close to them. There's a very fundamental difference between blood relatives and a spouse. A blood relative is something that is born to you. That's your father, that's your mother, this is your child, that's your brother. You didn't work on making that person your relative. Kacha ze. Kacha ze. This is your brother, this is your sister, das ist dein Kind. This is who they are. Because the relation is predicated on the reality of this is who you are, it doesn't always need the same type of work. Because it wasn't created through engagement, through talking. A husband and a wife became related because they worked on becoming a unit. The mistake we sometimes make is think that that relationship turns into the same type of relationship as a blood relationship. It never turns into that relationship. It always has to stay an invested an investment relationship. Marriage was created I'll use the D-word. You can't divorce your kids. You can't divorce your parents. You can't divorce your siblings. But you could divorce your spouse. Which that itself is such an important lesson because it says that what keeps it going is the investment between the two of you. The marriage relationship never becomes a blood relationship that just happens to be. It's always an invested relationship. So no matter how long a couple is together, no matter how many years, if it's 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, 30 years, 40 years, no matter how long they're together, it's always going to be an investment of a relationship. The more the investment, the more meaningful it is. I want to take a couple of minutes now. There are Yes. Can I just add to what you said? Sure. I just I just want to add to what Rabbi Berger just said is that's the reason why marriages are the most volatile relationships, also. You know, if I haven't spoken to my brother in in 2 weeks, and then when I meet him, or when I call him, we pick up exactly where we left off 2 years 2 weeks ago. If I haven't I a friend that I haven't seen in 6 months, we pick up exactly where I left off. If I haven't seen my wife in 3 hours, we're starting we're starting from scratch. It's almost I mean a marriage relationship sort of goes like this and like this like this. like this. Very very quickly because it's something that we're constantly constantly working on. And noticing that my marriage does that, just if you if you're looking at your marriage and saying this is crazy. Look. An hour ago she was my best friend. Now we're fighting. Like what's going on? You normal. That's what a marriage is. It's It's It's so volatile that we have to keep on working on it in that way. Okay. Yes. Rabbi Klein, do you want to add on this as well? I was just going to really um just strengthen everything you've both I mean there's no doubt the best source for this is is Hazal to tell us we just had Hakadosh Baruchu telling and lying and this is the source of the Gemara in Yevamot says lying to Sarah at the to Avraham Avinu about what Sarah said. And instead of the fact that Sarah said that how can we have a child? Avraham is old. Hakadosh Baruchu tells Sarah that she said she's old. And I saw this recently in Rav Isaac Sher, I think. Rav Isaac Sher has an incredible say um it's a secret. Secret liquid. And um and intimacy and it's really in a way it's a mitzvah to pass on, but you can't. So we try to do it the the properly. But um but in he writes the following. He says what you see from here is the most incredible lesson. My mother's like Moshe Rabbeinu said Rav Berga said marriage is that one relationship and there's a reason for it. I think it's a it's a very spiritual reason where there's no such thing as you are on the what's it called? Pilot um Automatic. Automatic pilot, exactly. Right. Cars used to have that. They still have that. Of course, now cars drive themselves. That's the most dangerous thing. And I've always seen it personally myself. The second you feel you have that ah everything is great, suddenly she says "What are you talking about? You need to work on yourself and it happens through marriage." So here you have Avraham Avinu and Sarah 99 and 90 years old. You would think they've worked They must have had the best therapy. Who they had the best I don't know who the rabbi was. Okay, Shimon Aiver maybe. They they they they they were so they had that the marriage was so many years and yet what? There's a possibility that Avraham Avinu is going to get insulted? I can't believe my wife said I'm old. And you are old. That's besides the fact. Can you imagine what a crazy lesson that is? But that's the truth. In a relationship with a husband and wife, it's always an opportunity. You have to look at it If people look at it as a it's a it's a chore and it's something negative, it's it's it's awful. It's an opportunity. Opportunity for both and everyone knows that if you take that opportunity, it makes what makes you a different person. It's what makes you a better person. Everyone knows. I mean, I think maybe that's even the main almost purpose I think in marriage is that trans- transformation that a husband and wife have. Look at yourself when you get married and then few years after, you're not the same person hopefully and if you are, it's because there was no marriage. The growth came through marriage. Yes, Okay, so I'm going to we're going to field a couple of questions. We are over time. Wow, yes. Any questions? Anybody want You want to read that one? that someone question that someone sent in. How can two high souls, deeply connected yet burdened by intense childhood wounds, break the cycle coming together and separating over triggers such as unmet needs of lack of space when they know Moshe and Devi know this is coming to you. When they know they are truly one soul, how can one couple who manages to overcome this pattern create a ripple effect and inspire and teach others to hold on their relationship? I'll say that over again. I think I got it. Okay, good. How about The the first thing I'm going to say is don't do it by yourself. Um there's When two people who have been in so much pain and through so much trauma come together, something very real is happening. A soul is connecting to a soul, but there's something else happening. It's called trauma bonding. Where my trauma bonds to your trauma, my need my my my insecurities bond with your insecurities, and it's very hard to see the difference between the two. The answer to the question is being able to differentiate what's our trauma bonding and and just but it and it's similar to just walking through a forest and navigating the forest and finding oh, there there's there's the light at the end of the tunnel, but you need you really need a lot of help to do that. But that it's it's make it's being able to make that separation. The trauma is not is not a problem so much as it's just getting in the way of being able to see how we really deeply connect and just being you having that clarity is something you need help with. Okay. All right, another question I got from Yasha Kiyah. Shalom Bayit tips for 55 and over retired empty nesters Ooh. to make Shalom Bayit exciting. You don't have to answer this. You're not 55. Masha, you you probably don't have to either. I'm the only one who's above 55. Does anybody want to take this? say. Start with you. You're okay. Put my foot in my mouth. I was just going to say to play basketball definitely will help. You know, this is this idea 55 and older in general. Every person who starts a business and has a successful business and every person with a successful business I'll say it in Yiddish Mevillas the kinders all around coming in the audit. They want their kids to come in because this is their future. But then if their kids are successful and they do a good job taking over the business then daddy has to learn how to let go. So what does he do? He goes to Kelo. The idea is that at one point in our lives we have to think about recreating ourselves. The people who we are till the age of 55 or 60 and the people who we are afterwards are going to be two different types of people. As Hashem, you get married, the bench of my health, you have kinderlach, your role changes at one point in time you become a Bobby and you become a Zaidy. And that role changes in the chinuch and the role that you have, it's a different role. So the idea first of all in understanding that that what you were and what we are when we're younger and what we're going to be as Hashem as you get to that 55 and older is two different people. What worked then and what's going to work moving forward is two different things. Having said that, shalom bias for 55 and over. When I jokingly said you got to learn how to go to Kelo, the emes is that when a when you're empty nesters and a person is retiring which means that they're not the husband or the wife are not going to work, there has to be a healthy space. Husbands can't stay at home the whole day. You have to get out of the house and hopefully if you're not yet 55 and you haven't yet developed a love for learning, you better do it now cuz it's going to be hard to start afterwards. The point is that Good, Moishe, you're doing a good job. Point is that ain't no tsunami one at that age each one has to be respectful of the space that the other person in needs. Have to be respectful of that to make sure that each person is not because if you're going to be you would spend so much time being separate. He was out to work all the time. And now he's around. So there has to be a certain level of respect and separation allowing each person to still do their own thing and then yet mid-life shaini we can now enjoy the nachas that we have. Enjoy our kinderlach, enjoy our ainiklach. My uncle my wife's uncle Rabbi Wolfson who just passed away about 35 days ago. He was a very very unique man. Him and Zozilong Laden, his wife Mrs. Wolfson. They invested in their children and in their ainiklach. They would have let's say ainiklach boys outings, ainiklach girls outings. They would take the time to invest because as a zaidy or as a babby you can give that unconditional love. You don't have to parent them. You're there more to spoil them. So ideas of what does a person do once you're 55 and older and hopefully you have kinderlach and ainiklach. You have a whole new role to play as being a babby and a zaidy where you can instill in there so much that these ainiklach appreciate. I'll just say this, when they made games most games you have to get on down to the floor. There's a psychological reason for that. I know being over 55 it's harder to get up and get down. But, you're lowering yourself to your grandchildren or your kids. It's not just physically, it's also meant to be mentally and emotionally. You're going down to their madriga and you're playing on their level. You have to And it's good to be a kid every once in a while. So, you can do that in a healthy way with your ainiklach. Anybody else want to answer? Can I go ahead and add something to that? I I think one of the biggest disadvantages that people 55 and over have is they think they know each other. Um I I I once had a couple come to my office. They were in their 60s. They married off their last child. And they said to me, "We never really had shalom bayis problems, but we'd like to get to know each other." Um the more a husband and wife stay together, the more they think they know each other. But, I I I would I would ask you a question. Like, if if I said to you now, "I know myself so well. I know myself so well, there's no need for me to go to therapy. There's no need for me to I I don't do any introspection at this point cuz I I just know myself." You'd probably all be laughing and say, "I'm not coming to him for therapy. This guy's nuts." Or arrogant or whatever. But, but so so so nobody would say that. But, somehow it's okay to say, "I know my wife or I might know my husband so well." We are so There's so much to us. There's so much to know. There's so many layers to peel away. When the kids are out of the house, there's an incredible opportunity to really get to know each other. Okay. Should we call it a day? Yes. Yes. Sounds good. Okay. Um I just want to thank the people who organized this event. I want to thank everybody who came out. L'Chaim Hashem. And for hopefully, I I mean, I certainly gained a tremendous amount just being amongst the two of you have so much knowledge and so much experience. I hope everybody else did. And Hashem should send them. You know, they say in America two Two is company. Three is a crowd. Two is company. Three is not in Yiddish guide. Because Just hold this for a second, right one? The third person couples connect to the shalom. So, you connect not this way. We connect this way. When the sham's with us, we use the opportunities as we've heard today being able to develop sensitivity to hear what your what your spouse is talking about. To listen to them. To validate them. To mirror them. But all of these bring out me to this. And as I don't know where is. One of the who walked in, he says, "Reba, what do you have to have this long speech for? It's one thing. It's me to this." Marriage forces a good marriage will bring out the best of each other. And that's what the sham wants. Ultimately we're going to go to have a bar. Ultimately, we're going to go to a place where the shalom is there to have a relationship with us. He only has relationships with good people. Marriages, in order for them to be successful, force us to become good people. The sham's help with sham wish me luck in our personal lives, with our families, with our sham and bring and bring the to this world. Amen.