Scaling and Succeeding in a Creative World with Hudi Greenberger

one huge Pitfall was last year like I mentioned but like we were growing grow growing grow growing and I realized I was actually losing money and that was a big problem so we had to completely revamp and let a few people go and change over the staff a little bit which was really tough don't confuse growth with profit you got to know your numbers and see what's really happening and don't be blind to it because I was blind to [Music] it puty thank thank you so much for joining me on the lettoo business podcast pleasure thanks you for having me Manny sure so we known each other for quite some time now we've been utilizing your services and photography for a lot of our clients throughout the years for listeners that maybe don't know about you tell us a little bit about about your history why how you got into photography and currently what you're doing sure okay so how I got into photography so I do I shoot products and food mainly and when I first started photography graphy I actually was playing guitar I had a band that gave lessons and all that kind of good stuff and I bought my first camera to shoot guitar lessons and I was planning on putting them on YouTube with a little clip but like as a plug for my band in the beginning of the lessons but I was going to return the camera when I was done I was I was not planning on doing this somehow I I knew it was also about the lighting so I bought like a basic threo lighting kit from B&H set it all up in my living room nice black background videos they looked great and uh after I finished shooting the videos like the next morning it was all still set up in the living room so I started taking some pictures of my kids and those did not work at all so I was like that's so weird like if the video works why shouldn't the photos work and like in my mind it was the same thing okay so now I know it's if for any photographers out there listening it's the shutter speed and ISO but at the time I was like that doesn't make sense so I started doing a little research and my brain loves creative and technical things which is why I'm a musician and I do wood working and I cook and all these fun things so once I started researching it like it was game over and like I just like took over my life for sure a few months so to start with I was just like you know I didn't want to do this as a living because in my mind photography was weddings and B Mitzvah which I was already doing with music and it was already crazy late nights I didn't want more of that so this is like 2011 2012 and it was right when Amazon was opening up their Marketplace to outside sellers so a friend of mine a neighbor of mine he he thought maybe it's a good idea if he posts better pictures like on his listing maybe he'll make more sales like right yeah now it's like quite obvious so he asked me to shoot it he was selling sunglasses and watches and scarves you know not actually pretty pretty hard items actually to shoot and after he posted the the new photos his sales tripled literally overnight wow especially because back then it was a brand new platform so he paid me like a hundred bucks an hour I was I was like if I can triple your sales for 100 bucks an hour I can triple your sales for $500 an hour also and within three months I quit everything I was like I had an IT job I quit no more music no more lessons everything out the door and full-time product photography and I haven't looked back beautiful beautiful so there's a lot a lot to dissect there and I want to go into some details but interesting because I now remember that you were doing some mus dabbling in music I think we spoke about it years ago yeah um something that I found very fascinating and I'm not sure how you see it from your lens no P intend yeah there's a lot of people in the creative space such as photography videographers even creative graphic designers or marketing directors that have a passion to music and it seems like so to speak that's the easiest way into exploring your creativity and then you you're figuring out okay I need to put it into some sort of business setting right and that's way you transition out of music and do something in the side have you seen it that as well yeah absolutely there's no question I mean to me creativity is the person that has a vision and is able to take that vision and put it into reality like a simple example like my wife well she's creative in her own way but not in the traditional sense of we of what we call Creative when I say the word pineapple she sees the word p i n a p p l e she sees the word pineapple I see a picture of a pineapple right so she's amazing games like Scrabble and anagrams and Bananagrams and she destroys me every single time because I see a jumble of letters and my brain does not see any word inside that jumble of letters and she in a second fcks it right out and I have a couple kids like that and a couple kids the other way it's cute so so yeah so when someone is a creative in the traditional sense of what we call in the creative industry yeah they are they're able to take that Vision that image they have in their head whether it's music or pictures or graphic design or or any of that kind of stuff and they're able to bring that Vision into reality I want to start by by something I've seen throughout working with you and my team working with you and ultimately also a lot of the content that you post about the work you do there's a certain passion even you know years later and you still do a good photo shoot and there's there's the passion behind it it's a twofold question one is how much does that passion drive you to continue to be excellent at what you do and constantly try to improve and see what else you could do that's the first part of the question the second part of the question is what drives you how do you feed the momentum and that that passion not to wear out because sometimes you get into the habit of doing the same thing yeah it's a different dish and it's a different you know product But ultimately it's more or less the same structure how do you keep yourself motivated and keep that drive okay great question so for starters everyone thinks that I like I have this major passion for photography I always get the comment like oh it's so amazing that you're able to take your passion and make it into a living my passion is not photography I kind of fell into this um like as the story I was I mentioned before not that I don't enjoy it I certainly do but like of all my creative things there was one thing that I was super passionate about it would be cooking like that's the one thing that I that I absolutely loved um I I like I love music also but it's not like my life passion cooking is defin definitely is that's like I would love to spend the day in the kitchen like always so that's kind of why I got into food photography because I you know I'm a big foodie so just to clear the eror there like that's the one thing it's not my passion I really do enjoy it I love creating I I guess really creating is my passion but it's not specifically specific to photography so so that being said so how do I keep it alive every single day so there's no question that some days are definitely tough like you come to the studio and you're like oh another day of this right yeah once you get kind of get into the flow of the work the workflow like your brain picks back up and and you just get into it and whatnot uh what I do love about it though is every single day is something else even though I love shooting restaurants it's my favorite thing to shoot if I had to shoot a restaurant every single day I'd never be able to make it dur the week because in general creatives have a really hard time with not with with the same thing over and over and over again so because we shoot products and food so every single day is a completely new project totally different than the day before and that really keeps the the drive alive got it I want to go back to what you said about the passion part and I think for our listeners it's an important point and there's there's a saying that I've been using a lot on the show is because you could find a lot of people say you know what what if I'm I'm not passionate about my business but I'm just doing it for the money you know tomorrow I want to do something else for the money and the the short answer is you could survive you could even Thrive without passion towards what you do but I believe personally and I've seen this in other businesses that you'll never get to the fullest potential of Your Business Without pass you need that passion to drive you in that rainy day or that day that that you woke up and you're just not in the mood yeah so ultimately you got to do what you got to do based on the passion now people confuse passion with which means like oh if I win the lottery tomorrow will I do photography tomorrow again because I'm so passionate about the product I don't think you have to go this far and of course especially as a grownup you develop passions you switch passions towards different things what lives leave to you I think what I mean with passion is that that extra grid and that extra passion towards what you do the excitement you come every day to work with in order to say I want to be the best version of myself or I want to be the best food photographer out there and therefore you going the extra mile and your own education and doing a re-shoot because I'm not happy because of one sort of Shadow and that image although maybe hundreds of other photographers will say it's just about good every nobody will realize ize it but for your own satisfaction that's where passion comes into play so I wanted to just clarify that for our listeners because there's a lot of confusion out there about how far do I need to be passionate about what I do right yeah you do need to enjoy the work because if you dread coming to work every day that's tough but yeah 100% I always tell this as well is passion is Passion gets you into the door but it's the work ethic and the enjoyment of the work and making sure you're delegating stuff you hate and that's what keeps movie yeah I just it reminded me I remember like in the when I was a kid my parents my father was had a Knitting Factory in those days they you still had hundreds of of people sewing all day handcrafted in in New York made in Brooklyn like now we're back to made in Brooklyn and and I remember like we used to go to like a like a big bucks retailer my father was used to go to that section and like literally take apart a hat or see from the outside inside out so to speak how was sewn and so on and so forth that's also a level of passion yeah you could say they want to do market research but it's the certain understanding oh look how these guys actually were able to stitch it this way and all and all of a that's the final product so on on the second part I think you mentioned something very very interesting and which on Creative side it's very important which is just to have a little bit of diversity in the work just to keep that spice so to speak not to get into that daily routine so to speak what would you say other business owners that maybe not in the creative space is that much how could they pick up that that diversity in their daily activities not to burn out sure so in the daily activities for me personally like it's not the daily activities that I would I would recommend creating that diversity I think it's the outside things it's like if you have something that you really enjoy what it really is is about getting in the zone getting that that flow that flow state that everyone speaks about so like like I do woodworking on the side I I picked it up over Co and I got super into it I could get lost in my what in my workshop like for 10 hours straight and like and just completely lose track of time it's not for my kids like saying yeah we need dinner right so and for me I have a bunch of different things cooking I'm like that I like when I okay I don't I don't really have time to cook that often but like for Yanti for something so I make most of the food I for two days straight I mean from morning to night I am just in the kitchen and just and I always think it's only going to take 10 minutes all done and then five hours later 10 hours later right so you just get into that flow state so by having some passion some well we there's that word again but having some some creative outlet and it doesn't have to be necessarily creative uh it could be you like playing chess I don't know um you whatever it is that you really en really enjoy something outside of the workplace that keeps that L that flow State alive I think that will spill into your daily work as well let's speak a little bit about photography because a lot of clients of ours um obviously are in the e-commerce business and and it's all about photography and even in the retail space now we do ad campaigns and it's all about the photography what do you as a photographer what do you look in the end result of the shot what do you want that shot to do uh that's a very good question so it really depends on the industry so let's take a like a typical Amazon Amazon listing photo so there's two aspects of it number one is that first image within the search results so I'm looking I don't know for a keyboard right to type on so there's 50 trillion keyboards that somebody can buy on Amazon right so you need in one image not just to showcase the product and show off its beauty But to answer people's questions right you know when you're sure looking for something on on Amazon you're not just looking for a keyboard you want it to be I don't know white with a silver rim and mechanical keys so you're going to write that or let's take something that you can show in a photo okay you want like the the you know the keys that are like really deep like not flat like a laptop screen right so you wanna you want that's what you're looking for you put in whatever search term to find that okay so first of all on the SEO side make sure if that's your selling point make sure that's in your SEO otherwise you can have the best photo in the world it's not even going to show up search results right so but then once you get to that you're in the search results right so simple thing if if you know that's the selling point of your keyboard so then make sure there's like a little call out and there's a there's a zoom in like showing in one photo hows all the keys are because that's what the person is looking for you put it in your SEO right so obviously you know that that's what people look for so make sure your photography is answering the customer questions before they ask it that's really a successful photo for the that first uh search res image after that once you get the click once they're in the listing what you're looking for is to keep them in the listing like a lot of times clients will say I only need two or three photos because that's all I need to show off my product and I said listen I'm not trying to sell you all my services I'm telling you for yourself you want seven images because the longer somebody stays on your listing answering questions showing them lifestyle images the better chance they're going to hit that buy button and put it in their cart because if they have just one or two photos and someone else has eight photos they're probably going to be clicking through all eight photos and watching the video and looking through everything because they want they want to be 100% sure that this is the product for them so the more photos they have you in your listing the better chance it's getting it's getting purchased and then within those lifestyle images you want to show scale that's a super important thing you want to show how big the item is sometimes you see like we'll use the keyboard as an example I just have a keyboard sitting right here that's why I keep on going back to that so you want you want to show how big is this keyboard right this is a pretty Mini Apple keyboard but how is it how large is it so sometimes they'll Photoshop it in an existing stock image and the scale is completely completely off and you have no idea is it this big is it this big like you can't even tell from the photo so showing scale is so important I actually had a client that sells like a poker mat like you'll it's like a huge mat you put out in your dining room table and it turns it into like a casino style poker table and he kept on getting getting comments that in the comments that in his reviews thank you reviews saying that that we bought it thinking it was it was small and it came in it was tremendous even though it says that on the picture says like 72 by 108 or whatever the dimensions are right so he showed it to me and he's like how come I keep on getting these these reviews and what he had done was he took my photo which he asked me just to shoot a flat simple image of it and he had somebody on Fiverr Photoshop some playing cards and some poker chips into the image and the guy I mean you know you only have this large of a space on Amazon right so the poker mat took up the top 2/3 and then the bottom third a whole third was a huge pack of playing cards and a huge thing of poker chips oh wow so people were comparing the size of the mat to the size of those poker chips and playing card thinking it was a tiny little mat and then they get it it was tremendous so I told them I said go back to your Fiverr guy keep exactly the same thing but make the poker chips teeny and the playing card teeny never got a bad review again well yeah yeah because you know the chips and the and the cars are what people could you know know the size and they could right yeah yeah I think it's very important let's speak about you chose product photography versus real lifestyle Photography in Full full photo shoots now obviously we're not talking about weddings and B mitzvas and stuff like that that's totally different um is there anything on when you you looked at your business model as far as scalability is that something that you took in account or it was just more a preference so in 2012 I don't think I knew the word scalability okay so some people are like natural businessmen and like their mind goes right there I am not 12 years ago it's 12 years ago yeah I am not like that at all I I have my entire business education from experience and from reading close to 300 books in the last years good for you good for you so everything is uh is learned from books and when you read that many books and you listen to them that many times even though I have a terrible memory so I never necessarily remember specific details but you the true Concepts you end up hearing multiple times throughout different books and different genres and across different platforms and those those stick so did I choose product photography because it was scalable absolutely not but about two and a half three years ago I decided it was time to scale and it was actually more like three and a half four years ago and we put some put a plan in place and we did scale like like right now you're seeing my studio in the background I used to be shooting in my garage now we're in this beautiful Studio here I I about beautiful but it's big and I have a whole team so that's awesome yeah so so I want to ask you a couple of questions on that because we have a lot of creative people listening to the show and I could tell you from from like obviously we're in a similar space because we also have a creative agency we just do two different functions in the creative process right so I remember like when I when we started out and going back 22 years ago I actually was a graphic designer I I learned the programs and I started to design at one point very early on I decided you know what if I'm going to be a graphic designer I'm going to be a graphic designer the rest of my life and where could I scale and then I decided what's really driving me driving me is the impact I'm doing with the Creative Design and therefore I decided to become more of a business person and hire my team and and give them the the creativity in order to in the platform so to speak to shine and you know 22 plus years later I'm very happy to say that a lot of people that had their own agencies ended up coming to PEX for a couple of years been able to to get great experience because they were exposed to phenomenal projects but more importantly because they're they were able to do only the creative process uh instead of all the admin stuff and so on and so forth while I was doing the business side of things and so on and so forth so I guess my question to you is in your case you are the the chief photographer regardless you know I know we've spoken about it how is scaling a service business where you know people are so tuned in to what you know the end result which might be a brain you know your work versus starting to bring in people or maybe the the scalability is more on delegating other parts of the business right so that you just answered the question yourself right now okay so there there's two there's always two ways to scale either like you said giving over the creative to somebody else which requires training or hiring a high level person or striking it lucky and getting that eighth round draft pick that happens to be like an All-Star and then there's the other aspect of just delegating all the stuff that you hate doing in order to to grow so I kind of did both is I have like so okay let me take you back one step so the first time I tried to I tried to scale so I had a photographer hyberger she she works independently now she's amazing I started her from scratch she was like she had just gotten married straight out of straight out straight out of whatever Lakewood she knew nothing she she had a basic graphic design course and I taught her everything from A to Z and she worked for me like five or six years and when I was ready to scale I was like okay so you know you shoot also and because she was already shooting like at home and like kids and whatever so I kind of taught her product photography over the years and so she started shooting for me and I very quickly realized that there's no way I can manage both of our projects like that was it's just I don't have a project management in general is not my strong point I can oversee a project but I can't the nitty-gritty details of the day-to-day stuff and following up on emails and all that kind of fun stuff that's definitely not my strong point so I so I very quickly hired a project manager but it was the wrong hire and she probably would would have been a great project manager just it wasn't working out between everybody so so I had to I had to shut that down I didn't even have a head to figure out the details I said forget it hi you do your own thing I'll do my own thing let's revisit this in a year or two or whatever so this next time I was ready to scale I said okay the first thing I need to hire is a project manager I need to get my processes down this is already after I read emth so I need to get my processes down we need to have uh a project brief for every single project and then I can hire another photographer because I don't need to manage them the project manager can manage them I just need to give over the creative and you know give my input of how something should be lit and then let them run with it so that's kind of where we went got is you mentioned email so our listeners that are not familiar emth Revisited is one of my top 10 books I do have a list of my top 10 and this is I think number one one on that list and also he was actually the number one guest on this show if you go back to the first episode Michael Gerber was actually a guest on on the show so we started our show with Michael Gerber so you could go back to listen to that episode I want to get into some if you don't mind like because I think the conversation you had there has so many valuable lessons and I think we have to have more everyday business owners on the show not so much experts because you could learn so much because you mentioned a couple of things I want to dissect it and I want to go in a a little deeper so first you mentioned about scaling twice which means you scaled and you had some failures that process and then Le and then you started again so I think this is just a lesson on its own which means is um a lot of business owners that I see will do something and it willn't work out and they say you know what it'll never work and the answer is could be that timing wasn't right could be the higher wasn't right could be you weren't on the right right mindset at the time so never give up if you're scaling for the reason of scaling or doing a business process because of the importance of why your business needs that process just because you fail once is not a reason not to try it again and I think the the best example I have with delegation when I do leaders forums and I I speak to business owners and we speak about a delegation the first question I start have you ever delegate something and it was a huge failure like you and it was a disaster and it bothered you so much why did I tell that person I could have done it myself all hands go up then there is couple of people couple of people decided because of that Fiasco never delegate again never do it again right or they go back and learn the art of Delegation which is a process there's a trust Factor there's a trust verify there's inspect what you expect there's a process to at which point that person delegates and and our challenge is we're so swamp with work we finally take a hire and all of a sudden we delegate like the most important things our best relationships we tell the person because we want to give them extra extra service we say here's my best client I want you to start taking care of their their business because I want another person to be involved guess what there's so many other pieces you can give away before you you let go from the most important pieces of your business so I think I think for our listeners that's a key lesson but I want to ask you a very fundamental question maybe it sounds very amateure why did you want to scale in the first place so okay so there's a couple different reasons I wanted to scale number one was obviously to make more money uh I if there was more opportun there's more people on the team there's more opportunity yeah so that is all relative because sure we're doing like last year actually I had a huge team I had three photographers I had a sales person it was like we had seven eight people here and we were doing like four or five photo shoots a day it was crazy and we were doing close to a million dollars in sales but I was actually losing money so just because you're growing doesn't mean you're growing in bottom line so that was a big Learning lesson but the what the real thing that was driving me was being a oneman show I was working like 15 hours a day every single day all weekend doing all the editing myself I mean it was it was crazy it was really really crazy like right now I'm probably making okay on on par with inflation also but about the same as I was making when I was a oneman show meaning take home profit but I come to work at 9 o'clock 9:30 and I leave at 5: and that's it and if I want to do something some editing in the evening maybe I have a client that need to take care of real quick sure 20 minutes half hour if I need to you know but otherwise I could just say hey you know I'm home already now we'll take care of it tomorrow and my editing people will take care of it the next day so that has been an absolute Game Changer there's no way I would have survived doing 15 hours a day and weekends I was literally going out of my mind I was not joking working till two o'clock in the morning five times a week it was crazy yeah I'm happy to hear how you answer it is because I think this is another lesson is you got to do when you do stuff you have to be intentional on the why why why you doing it me you say as you mentioned a lot of people say I want to make more money but then you have to say what's my path for more money I know more expenses more people and so on and so forth what's my path but if there is something like you said I need to be able to delegate enough of my work so I could have a better lifestyle know my hours and then all of a sudden even if the end result is the same amount of money but ultimately for that reason and I remember when we went into business we had this conversation with a very creative talented individual which was a graphic design he told me at that point at that time how much he makes per year and he says I don't want to hire anybody I control my day I control how much my output is I know how much I'm coming home with and I don't want to be managing people and you can't look at the person say you know what oh you this is your business this is the style of business why don't you start scaling and hiring people like it's the same thing like if you decide to open a coffee shop and and you want to charge $7 a a cup of coffee and have this clientele versus if you want to offer a $1.50 a coffee and have the other clientele who's right and who's wrong you want to know what's working for you don't just assume something and do it because somebody else did it and I think photographers out there or even creatives out there not everybody's meant to have a team and manage a team because going back to the emth you know you could be a baker and baking phenomenal baked goods Cup right but you're not a business owner and you don't realize little do you know when you started becoming a business owner all of a sudden you're opening the store you're covering the bank cash flow you're hiring you're taking out the garbage you're doing everything yeah everything except for baking no except for baking yeah except for baking so I think that's a very important point so let's talk about in the process of scaling what are some pitfalls or some wins that you had that you could share with the audience okay so one huge Pitfall was last year like I mentioned but like we were growing grow growing grow growing and I realized I was actually losing money and that was a big problem so we had to completely revamp and let a few people go and change over the staff a little bit which was really tough don't confuse growth with profit that's you got to know your numbers and see what's really happening and don't be blind to it because I was blind to it like I I I saw my bank account going down down down but I just I don't know my brain didn't go there because I saw how much work we were doing but like whatever so that was a big like I said I'm not a business person naturally so like my brain didn't see the red flags even though I noticed them but like it didn't set off the flag so definitely learned from that experience quite a bit but the the gains are like I said like if you do have the right team in place and and you treat them right like my employees will bend over backwards for me because I I treat them super like last week I usually the this last week in December is quiet quiet anyways so last week one of my employees my photographer uh he said that he needs the week off I said no problem yeah take it you know I one day are you able to come in if we need need you we didn't need him anyway so it worked out perfect and yeah so and that didn't mean I have to work a little harder last week and I was a little catching playing catchup like Fridays I usually leave 11 12 o'clock I was in the studio it's almost 2:30 because I had to try to catch up a few things that he would have taken care of but I was able to give him the entire week off so they know I have their back I've been my stylist she needed next week Wednesday she had some class or something that she needed to take and for now we don't didn't have anything booked but I I didn't want to tell her for sure take class because that means I can't use her that day so but it sounded like it was really important to her because she kept on asking about it so I was like you know what do the class we'll figure out what to do if we need to make it up another time we'll make it up another time and I'll figure it out for Wednesday no problem so they're ready to go to ex not that it's it's an exchange like I'm not doing it so that they should give me something back but if you're human to your employees they're human back to you and they will do what you need to do so with the smaller team that we have now I have a editor project manager stylist and and a photographer and myself so with the smaller team we have a much more tight tight-knit group and that's been huge for us because everybody kind of works together with each other and like things are flowing it's a it's really it's nice good place to be beautiful another question on that on this topic which is something that I've spoken a lot and previous guest has been stressing this a lot which we live in a world that employees want a certain autonomy in order to be able to develop something and call it their own so to speak a process or in a creative Pro and in the creative process it's even harder because there's a vision usually from the top so to speak how the end result needs to look how do you balancing that that your team should feel that they have the autonomy on doing something yet doesn't deviate from a Direction and The Vision that you might have for the project so in general I do like to let people run with things that's just my style meaning I don't want to get involved in the nitty-gritty detail I want them to to do it and then actually taking a step back in general the way I do things is I do it first and then I figure it out after so so I'll jump into a project just start shooting start doing it and even like today like if I have a product that I'm not 100% sure how I want it shot I'll put it down I'll literally just put some lights up take a picture I was like okay is that good is it not good what needs to be changed and should the light move around more from this side but to try to figure out the entire thing in my head beforehand that's just like it's a waste of time just put it down take a shot and then see where to go from here so I do the same thing with my photographer like he'll say how do you want the shot so you know we'll strategize a little bit and then he's a little bit like super detail oriented so he'll be like oh but should I do it this way or should I do it that way I was like I don't know just do one of them and then see what happens yeah so he's like okay you gotta bust and then from there I know that he'll get it because I've trained he he was pretty decent before he came there I saw his portfolio was excellent but really like hone the skills like train them in to how I like things to look so he knows like kind of my thought process of how I light things and and how I go uh work from there beautiful so on that note let me let me end with one very important question that I've saved for the last which is I know that you don't do a lot of marketing you actually were very vocal about not doing a lot of marketing but yeah when you look at certain chats certain groups where you know name a photographer so to speak and and then your name gets tagged a lot what would you say is the reason for all these tags probably because I mean okay it's a number of things but one thing is I've been around pretty much the longest so I definitely have my name out there number two is I mean BR my work does speak for itself so you know people are very happy with the results so like in general the best referral engine you can possibly do is to have happy clients and happy clients tell other happy clients even if they tell their brother-in-law or their sister-in-law or whatever but it's like well known that you're the guy so that's important mishak magazine my name has been in there pretty much every week for the last eight years so that's been huge LinkedIn has been massive for me one of the things I love to do is I love to write so LinkedIn is tremendous I mean if you don't know how to write it's worth hiring a Content writer for you gotta find the right one but it is definitely worth putting your time and effort into LinkedIn because like it's brought me I mean just perfect example yesterday I posted I'm looking for a salesperson 15,000 views 200 likes more over 200 likes by now dozens and dozens and dozens of comments tons of people reached out actually a guy calling right now someone I spoke to yesterday I told him to call call me b a potential hire so LinkedIn is a tremendous tremendous Avenue for marketing and free so assuming you're not paying someone to write your content got it where could people find out more about you so LinkedIn if you want to find about me personally LinkedIn is place to go my websites are hoody greenberg.com it's huvi not y so hoodie greenberg.com as well as hoody shoots food.com that one is specifically for restaurants and hotels which is what I need salesperson for I want to try to Mark into that beautiful the links resources mentioned this episode check out the show notes at www.p group.com podcast let's close with the four rapid fire questions are you ready go for it I'm not good at rapid fire but we'll try number one a book that changed your life how to win friends and influence people that was probably the first of all my books yes great still a great book absolutely number two a piece of advice you got that you'll never forget from another book from Scott Adams who writes Stillberg yes creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes art is knowing which ones to keep beautiful number three anything you wish you go back and do differently I would have scaled earlier I think and last but and final question what's still on your bucket list to achieve a restaurants that's my dream open a restaurant so the goal is when I have so much money that if I lose $20 million the restaurant that and it'll still be okay that's when I'm over in the restaurant I can imagine how the menu will look yes it'll be beautiful I promise it buy thank you so much for joining us I know your time is valuable that is why in the name of listeners we'll forever be grateful for sharing some of your time with us today it's been a blast pleasure thank you many my [Music] pleasure