S3 Eps 10: Let's Talk Old School Vs New School (feat. Rabbi Dovid Goldman)

He knows that you know that I know that you know that he knows that I know that this whole thing is a ridiculous sticktick and I did catch him and I'm saving face and he's not going to talk show >> that success is not about compliance and it's not about control is as revolt it's the beginning of something forever but you're so much more flexible to that struggling kid you lose classroom control you lose that a little bit of the authoritative pedestal that our teachers in Arabane can sometimes be on. Welcome to the Learning Curve podcast brought to you by Mishbaka Magazine. >> We're raising children in a changing [music] and challenging world. >> So, let's tackle the important issues facing families today. >> I'm Rabbi Rhiel Garfield, manal of Yeshiva in Houston and I love talking about >> I'm Rabbi Ari Shfeld, man of Yeshiva Katana Manhattan. Ro me of basra Manhattan director of camp. I also love talking kuk and of course a little bit of fishing. >> Join us as we answer your questions and discuss the topics that matter to parents the most. This episode is sponsored by Israel Bookshop Publications. Now that perm is behind us, it's time to turn our attention to the next great night on the calendar, the seder. If you're looking for an ag that will truly transform your pesak, start with living the haga, the haga of the mash or matio salon. This remarkable work was prepared by his close tidia pearl at the mash's personal request. It captures not just explanations but misora. how the Mashka conducted a seder, what he emphasized, how he described the makos with vivid clarity. It's authentic, foundational, transformative. And Israel Bookshop publications is the official distributor of all the Mashkiarim, including the beloved Matnasim and Matnazo series, as well as the original Hebrew Matneshima upon which the living haga is based. Looking for more options? They've got you covered. The questions asked Hagada the Daniel Alter Haga foundations of faith from Garinat the Shalom Haga the Hagada the a for teens and the from Kinfki and of course don't prepare for Pesak without the classic Rabbi Bloomran's Pesak digest plus the star K and Rierian Bess Pesak guide all official Ally distributed by Israel Bookshop. Upgrade your seder, deepen your preparation. Visit israelbookshopations.com and make this Pesak the most meaningful one yet. We all know the feeling. Between grocery bills, tuition, and simas, expenses add up fast. But if you're like many, you probably have a gold mine of credit card points just sitting there unused. The paid group makes it easy to turn those points into real cash. Don't let your points expire or settle for a random gift card. Go to the paidgroup.com for a fast cash quote. It's a quick win for your family budget. That's the paid spelled t h e p y d g r o p.com. and welcome back to another episode of the learning curve. As onward we move, we get closer to Pesak. So, spring is almost in the air. It's been in the air in Houston for the last 5,786 years, but at least here on the East Coast, we can at least dream of better days, of warmer days. So, Rabbi, good to have you back. >> You're right. Great to be here. And yeah, it's a really enjoyable thing. and the mitzm will continue growing and exploring more and more issues. You wonder how could there be so many issues in somehow there are just always more there there's more there's as you said in a previous podcast a couple of podcasts ago and I've said this also we maybe have to be more careful because people that interview in our schools now >> they don't have to ask us what our hashkuffas are they could just put on the learning cap >> um >> I love it >> I have a talmud who's thinking of moving to Houston >> I'm not going to say anything more than that because I don't want to give anything away and he said to me and I love the I I said, "What do you know about Houston?" He's like, "Rabbi Garfield, how do you like that?" >> That's great. >> So like, so all right, we have an exciting episode today and I think they're always important. Some maybe not nuanced, I would say, but more boutique questions that certain families struggle with to certain kids. And then a very large, you know, almost like macro question in Kuk. We have a very exciting guest to talk about it. I think I got the first question to be asked to me. >> Okay, >> so Rabbi, take it away. >> Here we go. Dear TLC, my fourth grader always seems to have things that we haven't gotten for him. He tells me that he trades for things or that he wins things off of other kids. It doesn't feel right. Sometimes he has unexplained cash. Not a lot, but he wouldn't give me a straight answer about anything that he gets, and he gets defensive when I ask. I'm afraid he's stealing from other kids. How do I deal with this? >> So, kids that steal, right, I guess would be the topic. Kids that steal, I think the age is such a defining factor in how you deal with this. >> I was a fourth grader. >> What is that? Eight or nine? >> Yeah. Eight. No, nine years old. Eight, nine years old. So, I had an episode in camp, one of my early years in camp, in which a child was stealing and it was pretty apparent. Matter, you're in a bunk. >> So, it just it's just everything's there. Right. >> Right. Snacks are there and no one allows Kaspon many tradition soups, but in the event that kids are hiding soups, they're there. You know, hot water because it means using hot water. So, we try to take away from what you're answering. So, don't forget a segment. I was watching another wonderful podcast that was interviewing someone who went to jail from guy and he said that the currency in jail were tuna packets. I don't know if you heard that. It's like funny like in that in jail like the most valuable thing you could have is one of those sealed tuna packets. Okay, go ahead. >> So camp tradition soup if you can get away with if you get your counselor to fill it up with hot water so therefore it's not dangerous is very valuable. Anyways, so this boy was a fifth grader and he was stealing. He was stealing money. He was stealing. And I called the therapist and I said, "What is this?" Like, "What am I? Is this a mental a mental health challenge?" Right? Is this pathological? He's a fifth grader stealing. And the therapist said to me that fifth grade is the year of turnover. In other words, until fifth grade, it can be viewed as age appropriate. And maybe we'll we'll unpack this a little, but once you hit fifth grade and sixth grade, and I think the idea is that when you reach adolescence, part of adolescence is the ability to empathize truly with others and to see someone else's perspective. And kids become healthy kids become more emotionally sensitive and being and being those midas really besides the habits that we try to create younger years that happens in middle school and stealing is such a an ignoring of the other person that if you're doing it in middle school it's incredibly concerning. >> Wow. >> If you're doing it in younger grades it's less concerning. Now I called the parent >> and it's a pretty it's not a fun conversation to hear from a head counselor. Your son is stealing in campa right. >> So what but the way in which I got the parents on my side and I think this is in general >> a good mahalik for administrators for a bay and I said to the mother I said by the way I just to say in one of the previous episodes I think in episode 8 or I know maybe episode six I use the last name Silverman. I my fake names are Silverman and Golian. Now I want to be clear. My fake names are Silverman and Goldstein. And I have a friend whose name is Rabbi Schneer Silverman. Yes, >> he's from Atlanta. Stroll a superstar Reb and D and Camp Monies from the except the teams he roots for aren't so good. But we'll leave that for a different time. But anyways, so I mentioned in an in a conversation we were having about wearing helmets and getting involved in other people's kids who are making mistakes and dangerous, right? Getting involved. And I mention those of you say Silverman put on a helmet. So he listened to the episode and the next day he texts me by the way I'll wear a helmet from now on. [laughter] So I want to be clear when I say Silverman and Goldstein and Yankee these are all fictitious names. Fine. Anyways so I call up the father and I said Mr. Silverman I want to let you know your son Yankee is stealing and there's not a suffic doubt. We have the money. We have it's the fill and whatever the money he was during the film. Right. And I said to him the following. I said, "I'm not worried that about the objects." Oh, he stole $20 from the other kid. I'll give it $20. The tradition soup. I'll give the kid from the canteen. I'm not worried about me being able to handle the fallout of kids missing things. We'll replace them. I am very concerned that your son is not going to have friends because already the kids in this bunk don't want to sleep. Don't want to have their bed next to him. They want don't want their clothing next to him, right? They don't want to sit next to him at the in the dining because he's taking their food. So, I'm not doing this for me. I'm doing this for you and your son that if we don't get him help, he's going to suffer. So, when you say that to a parent, it you just totally disarm because I'm not attacking you. Your son's not in I can't get him in trouble in camp. Yeah, he stole. What are we going to do about the fact that your son is stealing? Right? That's just to me an approach in general. When you deal with younger kids that are stealing, it's age appropriate. Like, if this child was three or four years old, you wouldn't even write an E. You wouldn't write a letter to the learning curve. You wouldn't even have a conversation. >> Three is on the cusp. >> They right >> first fourth year is on right. So cuz a three and four-year-old don't understand the concept of what is someone else's. I heard an amazing insight one from child psychologist. The concept of sharing is a layered mature idea. Which is why a 5-year-old will never share because in their mind if I'm holding it, it's mine. If you're holding it, it's yours. And I did this at home. Can I my kids are older now? when my kids were little and and Khani wanted to borrow Ruthie a podcast now so I can't say I can't say what we call her we some people I call her Ruthie everyone else calls and she would say can I borrow your your pen and she would say no I'm like why not no it's mine and I would literally sit her down and I would say Ruthie listen to me this is your pen even when Khani is holding it and playing with it it's still your pen because it's yours literally say three or four times when she's coloring it it's your pen. She's going to take it for a few months and give it back to you. >> I know, you know, we're going to have on a very of soon and I know he's thinking about Pia and product permanence, object permanence because he's uh his father is a big psychologist. But this is studied about children don't understand peekaboo and all this stuff. It's it is a developmental. >> Correct. >> Right. But the question as you said, then you get older, first grade, second grade, sometimes they take things because they just want and they're impulsive. Fourth grade is a tricky year. Fourth grade is already at the point where if they are stealing, it usually isn't just for the candy. >> It usually isn't just for the money. It's usually hopefully it's not a mental. If it continues till seventh grade, then there's something terribly concerning. It's usually a kid that feels that that he just needs things. There's a hole there. There's a lack of understanding or really there's a need that he has that he isn't being filled. And it's obviously an impulse control challenge, but I do think that in fourth grade still as a parent, I would treat it as regular. I would talk to him about it and obviously figure out whether it's true or not true and assuming that of course it's true, then make sure to give it back and explain it to him and talk him through about what belongs to other people. Role play. role play is which is incredibly valuable to a fourth grader and I think you can to he can still be a healthy balance fourth grader and be stealing. Am I is that aesthet? >> Honestly, I'm feeling because I don't really know enough about stealing to be honest. I don't have a whole lot of experience with it. But I'm wondering are you saying that it's not a reason to call the therapist? Meaning this alone would not be a reason if a kid is stealing. The mother doesn't even know in this case the parent I should say doesn't even know if the child's ste stealing. They are just accusing them of it so to speak, right? I think there's a bit of a >> just the kid who's stealing in school, right? I would call the rebby call. >> Let's say it was clear. >> Let's assume it's stealing. No, the kid's stealing, right? And the kid's stealing from the mother, right? If the kid's stealing, by the way, he's stealing from. >> So, is that a reason to call a therapist on its own? Would you say? >> I wouldn't. No. No. And again, that's why it's so unique. Like fourth grade is like it's getting to the edge. It's getting to the edge and it depends how mature the kid is. But it's just a kid who's stealing. It might be that this kid is super hungry or jealous. He doesn't have money at home and he's jealous of other kids. I think it can be within the framework of normal. But you have to really watch it because you're going to role play with your fourth grader. You're going to talk about your going to incentivize your fourth grader. And if that behavior sticks and you're in fifth grade, first of all, you're going to tell him you can't go to camp, right? And you can't have sleepovers if you're going to do this. And if it can if it you're at the edge of the point where you get very concerned and like well what is the whole you have to keep at it and watch it to find out what's underlying whether this is >> something the underlying cause is very is it more deeply concerning than what just what you're seeing. >> Okay. Yeah. Like I said I don't have a lot to say about it because I just simply don't know enough about stealing. I haven't had that many cases. I guess it's not something I've looked into to comment on it more. But lucky we have two of us. So one could say things and the other one could say he doesn't know. Barem, our lucky listeners. Look at that. Okay, let's move on to the next question. >> Okay, hopefully you'll have something to say on this one. Wow. Okay. I don't know. I mean, you figured the guy's getting paid the big bucks. He's got nine pot he's got nine podcasts. He's running basically writing every article there is known to man. And you would think he would have It's okay. >> Okay. So, I'll ask you this question. I'll leave for 20 minutes and come back. Um, [laughter] dear TLC, I have a question for the learning curve. I really enjoy listening to each episode. Thank you for putting them out. Is there a strategy to handle a child who refuses to accept that they can do anything wrong? My daughter gets into fights in school, but it's always the other kid's fault. Same thing at home. If we give a consequence for something that we witnessed, her reaction is to cry that we're so mean to her and we hate her. We try to talk to her about this during calm moments, but nothing seems to help. Now, do we know the age of this daughter? No. So, I hope she's not 18. But [laughter] >> let's assume a seventh gra seventh or eighth grader is like >> you can decide the age and then take >> I would say seventh grader. Okay. So, this is a great example where the issue has nothing to do with the issue. Meaning, it doesn't matter if she get her to say the words I am guilty. That is not where you should focus on. This is not like she doesn't need to do voy in order for her world to fall back into place. So stop focusing on and I know this I'm not saying that the parent who wrote this is doing that but I'm saying I'm I don't care if she admits it or not. So let's just leave that aside for a second. Okay. So leaving that aside, what's going on? Okay. So let's see what we do know. One is she has tremendously low self-esteem because she has a hard time admitting she did anything wrong. So what are we doing? Let's focus on her self-esteem. Okay. And I would say >> could you just I want you just for the sake of the audience just to explain that why what would it mean to us we're in this field. So that's >> well she has low self-esteem because she can't admit that she does anything wrong. When people can't admit they did anything wrong that means that doing something wrong would undermine the who who they are their value as a person. And the only people whose value gets undermined by making something wrong are people have a very low self-concept where they think that they're only valuable because they achieve because they don't make mistakes or they're so scared of the consequences. Again, assuming everything else is healthy, you never know if the parents are crazy or overreact to everything. Maybe they would lie to just protect themselves, but assuming that's not the case. So I [clears throat] think the real energy here is about what are we doing? Forgetting the situation, forgetting the fighting, forgetting whatever else the dysfunction is. Just broadly >> the story almost doesn't matter. The facts almost don't matter. >> When I read this, I didn't I don't care if she what the thing she gets in fights. Okay, we'll deal with that. I mean, we have to deal with that. But the first step is why does this child have such a and it doesn't have to be a why? Because some children just have low self-esteem. to whatever extent we could build her self-esteem, giving her praise, finding her ways to shine, making sure that if she has any handicaps that are getting in the way of her ability to function, learning issues, social issues, whatever we're doing to fortify her selfidentity, I would start with that. >> So what happens? So you have this seventh grade girl who now struggles with self-esteem, but therefore cannot accept consequence self-esteem and then I'll talk to you about that. Call me back. >> That's what I would say. put two solid months into self-esteem building. I want you putting money into it. I want you focusing on it. I want you doing everything you can about that. And then call me back >> because I have a feeling that it will resolve a lot of it and then we can deal with the other stuff. That's just my re obviously these questions we don't know the story. So of course, >> but that's my gut when I see this such a defensiveness and an inability that screaming low self-esteem and with such a loud voice. Is there room for a another piece here? And that is the authority figure. In other words, now maybe that's self-esteem, but I think it's different. In other words, maybe the child just really struggles with accepting authority. And there is a certain for whatever reason, I make my own rules and I decide what is right and what is wrong and I decide what is appropriate, what is inappropriate. And therefore when there's an adult in my life who's trying to legislate and punish and decide what I you are not in charge you have there are kids we all have kids in our school right that are just >> we call that oppositional defiance >> right yeah odd right what we used to call none of us what do we call him but there's a certain like when the rebby you know says I don't know >> I didn't get turns on email it could be that is the case that's not how I reacted to it there are kids who struggle with something called oppositional defiance which by the way me and Dr. Mandaman Shim Mandaman have a great routine about where he Yeah, I could argue with him for hours. >> Who's Abbott and who's Castello? >> He's very against he's oppositionally against oppositional defiant disorder. So I want to stipulate that and I'm I am pro or I think it's a disorder that's worthy of a name and acknowledgement. But regardless, >> you do you think what's you do you think that oppositional defiance disorder which I imagine half of our audience is is right now either can't believe that word is in is what do you mean he lack doesn't have their and you tell me there's a disorder called I know called odd I know this wasn't the parent but where letter >> yes I believe it's a disorder pivot as identified in the DSM since I think the DSM 3 4 TR 5T and it will be in the DSM6 fix. So yes, I believe it's a disorder because I believe in the field of psychology and I believe in the to look at thousands and thousands of children and look for patterns and that my friend is what a disorder is. But let's not go there because it's not fair to Dr. Mandelman since he's not here to try to intimidate me with his defense. We will leave that. But my point is to say I was not approaching this as a child whose options are defiant. I was approaching him more as a child who can't own her mistakes. I do have one other kache that I would like to say and then I we certainly want to go and and bring in our special guest. My other kache is a technique I developed. I taught nth grade for a long time and ninth graders teenagers are not apt at like owning their mistakes and not that anyone is but certainly not 14y olds. So a classic example of a technique I developed which I use all the time is let's say a child's talking and I say stop talking and you know you're teaching and the kid keeps talking you say bar I said stop talking and bar says to me I wasn't talking what me so I say oh so bar what you're saying is you know how wrong it is to talk right of course and you would never talk of course not so perfect let's move on like I don't need to argue whether he was talking or not, he's basically admitting to me that he knows it's wrong and he won't do it anymore. So, show them all it's wrong. So, like she comes home from school and she says, "I didn't fight." She said, "Great. So, it's wrong to fight." Yeah. So, what would you do if you got Yeah. So, you could talk about it without forcing the issue. You don't have to >> except that there's no consequence. But there's no consequence and there's no perhaps right. You don't need to give consequence. >> If you have a rule in your class, if you have a rule in your class that a kid who's talking, I don't know, gets a demerit and loses two minutes of resistance. I don't know. I don't believe in consequences. I believe in kinuk. >> You don't believe in consequences. >> I believe in kinuk. Yeah. It's a different thing. >> So, wow. >> Sometimes >> believes in O believes in OD doesn't believe in consequences. Oh, wow. >> Yeah. I'm not married to consequences. There are times when you have to there there are times when there are things that happen that are actions that might appear to an untrained eye as punishment or consequences. But my main issue is to help this kid not talk anymore and cheer. That's my main interest, right? So, Mark says to me, "I understand. You're now out of talk." And of course, I would never. First of all, he knows that you know that I know that you know that he knows that I know that this whole thing is a ridiculous stick. And I did catch him and I'm saving face and he's not going to talk. Show you I love when I love when you're like I like I touched the right button on the on like your lapel and bang, >> I'm awake. >> Good. I got what I wanted. We can move on. You made up for your lack of energy in the first question. >> Oh, I had nothing to say about it, but yeah. I love this trick and I have a whole bunch of them and the way the beauty of it is that the kids know that you're calling them on it respectfully and it's like a fun Okay. Anyway, that's what I have to say. >> So, in our moving on to our spotlight question of the week. We've been trying to bring on every debin for a while. At least I have had this idea. I waited for the right question to come in. I want to explain. I'm going to give a ty now to explain. Please do >> as we welcome into the learning curve of David Goldman. I have to first I'm going to explain who Rab Goldman is >> and then I'm going to read the question. It's going to be a whole >> your old friends Goldman who's currently the Goldman know I'm ruining. No, I'm going to explain I'm explain why before I explain how I know. Okay. >> Do your thing. >> Yeah. Goldman is a grew up in the system. His father-in-law is a longtime rebby in Witz Wisconsin. He is one of the heirs, one of the crown jewels of the world. He was a manal in St. Louis for seven years in Manal in Brooklyn for seven years before moving on to >> for seven years because then we know what's coming, baby. [laughter] >> But here's before as he's on his list, which I don't mind >> is like if you want to know what they're known for, it's messy. It's old school, right? It's Ms. from tobi to the alpha fromk. It's like and everything is messiah. Imagine the chicken on Tuesday is the same as it was 60 years ago. Maybe it's even the same chicken. But that's and yet Rabbi Goldman is the most forwardthinking progressive in in in creative mechanic there is. So therefore he is this like almost steer paradox or beautiful combination of both worlds. Which is why asin listens awkwardly. I'm going to read the question and then I'm glad I can't speak here. No, no, no, no, no. Regovin is how are you? >> I I don't even want to interrupt. I'm enjoying listening to you guys so much. I wish you could keep going. >> I bet you would say I know guys really well. I bet you're gonna say, "No, that is the time. The innovation is part of the dar [laughter] >> of course says to go to the places that you would and no one else would go. So what other guys going to come to?" So >> exactly from the >> Okay. >> So Rab Golden and I actually spent we went to two different camps together. We went to Dora Golding back in 1990 for one summer. Wow. And we went to camp Heler together. I will not mention the fact that I think I I mentioned the recent he just recently moved to Paic and I said to my do you remember that in color war in 1990 and you hit me basically over the head with a hockey stick and he's like that was you? [laughter] >> That's great. Wow. >> So muckle up. Yeah. Very good athlete. >> Okay. Good. >> So here's the question with all of that introduction. Right. This is a question and that I think is a fundamental question and so here we go. Rabbi, you want to read it? You want me to read it? How are you? >> Oh, you're on fire. I think you should read it. >> I'm on fire. I think I'm just I wasn't really offering to I'm reading it. So, [laughter] >> here we go. >> Dear TLC, and usually we get emails from parents. This is from Amora, which is >> I didn't see this one yet, so I don't know what's going. >> Okay. Dear TLC, >> hi. Thank you for your entertaining and enlightening podcast. I am a passionate >> sorry. >> Yes. I am a passionate fifth grade mora and I am deeply invested in >> I would definitely classify my philosophy as new age with all that entails. Okay. But after listening to your last podcast I have a question now. I don't know which podcast. It could be probably any of our podcasts. I don't know which she doesn't say which is referring to. Okay. Let's see. I just returned from the Shiva of a renowned mechan. She was a powerhouse, inspirational, witty, strong and influential. But as I left the Shiva house, I heard a student of hers say, "Yeah, but come on. School is terrifying." To which her friend responded, "Oh yeah, I was petrified of her." We all know that it's pretty much impossible to be terrifying if we engage in all the practices that new age entails. Fist bumps included. Oh, she really listens. Okay. Uh >> Oh, yeah. That was the manal one, right? The manal. >> Yes. >> Yes. But I don't think this woman could have made the royum she did if not for her intimidating nature and the way she was mechanic. Try leading 300 students in single-handedly while maintaining absolute respect or creating an inspiring atmosphere with no fear factor. How do we reconcile this for ourselves? Are we losing out on a large part of or is what we are doing today worth the cost? Now she signs her name. My obvious is not going to read her name because I don't want to give away who this Mas was, but this is a a Mora that was not embarrassed to say who she is. An amazing question. Something that we discuss all the time that is old old versus new. Does that explain Rabbi Goldman in my introduction now make more sense to the question? >> I love it. >> All right. So David Goldman again was the manal and you work in MFA. Have you ever worked in elementary school? >> No. >> And I'm enjoying listening to you about elementary school. I'm learning from you. >> Beautiful. So, but I imagine this of course this is really a macro shin. So, take it away. >> Okay. First of all, I love love love the question and I think the what the first step is most important is when we focus and think about specific people, it just it clouds our whole judgment and we can't I would apply this statement that small people talk about people and big people talk about ideas. So let's move off the any particular person that we're thinking of whether it's the person in the question or that manal that we had in elementary school that we have lots of feelings about. Let's move it into the abstract of ideas and then later we could apply it back to people in in a safer fashion. Secondly, I think it's really important to understand that to to look the mach of the dors before us and to not ple the greatest generations the generation since since the holocaust that we're like an anasabak. There were certainly small little midgets on their backs and what they carried and how they built Torah from nothing into what it is today is amazing and incredible. So nothing ever they were going to say is going to take away from that genius and that great >> that said >> and certainly the challenges of what they were carrying was unbelievable. So the fact that they were able to be at such a time and it's so easy now to come on tap and to look at the beautiful building and to say yeah we could do this better and fix this better but that doesn't mean that that we're better than them and anything like that. That being said, yes, I actually would throw out a challenge. I would challenge almost any mechanic from the old from the past to ever show a video of their classroom. And I would think that when people talk, we totally believe in you and the generations before are much greater. At the same time, no doubt we believe in you and we believe that the generations before were incredible and amazing. Yet, we've learned so much in the world of and the pool that we're picking from in terms of is a much wider pool than we came to when came in post Holocaust. The generational trauma that we have in from the Holocaust was unbelievable and what they were carrying was unbelievable. And I would challenge anybody to show with that being said to show their classroom and to say that the back then they're proud of from 20 30 40 years ago to show it now. And so I think it's I think it's it's not it's a non-starter to think that that there's not a lot of things and most things that aren't better now. >> That's a big statement. >> You disagree? >> I'm not saying I disagree, but to say >> how about the challenge? >> I don't Well, I don't understand. Goldman just didn't you just contradict yourself and you said that >> we've learned >> how Greek the previous generation was and then you said but let's face it you no one wants to watch the 30 years >> tremendously great people and tremendous tremendously what they were bringing to a world that didn't know Torah the way that we that we know it the fights that they were fighting think of the European most to come and to be and to teach Torah in a world that didn't understand it but it didn't mean doesn't mean at the same time with that whole package that they understood the that we have now We've been studying now as a community for so long and even to understand to apply the of the Torah into it just to appreciate the whole system of yeshiva and we think of the system being started in it wasn't it wasn't high schools it wasn't dealing with talking about and in as an example like we have everything we that we did we learned so much from we learned so much from didn't teach high school so we don't have like it wasn't to apply how to apply that to how to apply to high school we don't have an exact mal that we have lots of people ask etc And I think that to understand yes we're super committed to the mis at the same time when when he asked what's the biggest ofka he said more important than gus is individuality appreciating individual and look at the the array of so coming now bring bring it down to the question a little more focused I think that the first way to to look at the question I think is we have to define success in normally when we think of success when the typical person you look at a mechanic and it sounds like in the question even success in the question was look this mechanic was able to quiet and get compliance and control of a classroom. So I think that we have to define the difference between that success is not about compliance and it's not about control is as revol forever. The one in the Torah that describes why not because that's what works. The reason that the says to do that is not because it's the best thing and it's going to work. In fact, it could in short term there could be a lot of things that could work much better. But the only reason is because then won't go away from it. So the barometer is telling us is not that this is the best way to get compliance nor control. In fact, sometimes it could be the opposite. I remember as a kid they used to have these commercials on the radio about getting a bad you want your kid is defiant or maybe OD your kid is defiant. We'll fix your kid in three weeks. Send this to your kid in three fix. And it struck me it must be that it works because if it didn't work they'd go out of business like they they would they'd be off the air in a short time. Obviously it worked to some degree. So then why don't we all do that? Why the answer is to get compliance and to get to have short-term success. Yeah, you can do that. You can take a round peg and get into the to the square hole. It's absolutely you can get you take a mallet and you smash it. You might lose like like like pieces like arms, legs or I would say maybe nishamas and and feelings. So compliance is not a steer. the fact compliance if compliance is the barometer so then I think that this question would be 100% right and definitely certain forms we should go with I think to take it to the next step is what some of the things you really think about what is compliance and and control what underneath what gets that compliance and control and I remember as a kid thinking about some of the things we used to think our went to like rebby school and like a lot of the tricks of Garfield's giving us these wonderful tulapy tricks the old a lot of the old tricks if you think about them at the root of them just think if sitting in shear I remember sitting in It was just the open the things that we would openly say in is that you better have your finger on the place. You better know the next word otherwise I'm going to call on you and what's going to happen? Either I'll throw you out >> or even worse embarrass or you better not be talking because if you're talking in the back of that room of 300 kids, I'm going to call you out and therefore what? Embarrass. So in other words, the way that we're creating control is with fear. And in fact, if you look listen to the question, I'm pretty sure if you look, you have the lush in front of you. I think at the end of the question there it said >> try leading 300 students in Fila single-handedly while maintaining absolute respect or creating an inspiring atmosphere with no fear factor. So now one second so we go can do you is it possible to lead 300 kids in a room with while maintaining absolute respect without with no fear factor. >> I love the question just one more thing just to appreciate it for a second is when we're talking about fear factor and embarrassment. And I want to study those for a second. But we all know about Busha and at Busha that we all know that when someone embarrasses somebody, it's to a certain degree as if you killed them. And with that in mind, I remember leading a Rebby meeting and we I was challenging their van. Can we create classroom control without busha? And I was explaining so we know that it's killing so we wouldn't someone would do that. So I remember rebi was challenging me. So what do you mean? We're not killing them. We're not embarrassing them. If they don't have the finger on their place or they talk out, it's a it's them doing to themselves. So, so I said I that's fine as long as if we're comfortable with the fact that let's say I say like this everyone put their heads in their gar and I'm just going to shoot bullets right above your head and you're not gonna if you pick up your head then you killed yourself. No, no one in the right mind would ever do such a thing. So if we understand, we really believe them. Just to add a practice that I learned from the very who'sal in Yeshua Spring Valley, our counselor in Campim when I was in Spring Valley, I would watch him man the dining room on a microphone with 300 kids and he would never say the last name of a kid on the microphone. If he wanted Yankee Goldstein's attention cuz he was out of place, he would Yankee and then and so then eight Yankees would turn around, right? And then Goldstein. And he told me he does this because now a microphone bar rob him. So I I try as hard as I can when I have a microphone and I'm in camp or in yes in a large setting I won't say a last name to reprimand on a microphone based on this conversation. Continue. >> Love that. Love it. In fact the Gumar which talks about Busha and talks about that it's better to jump into a burn into embarrassing someone in public is talking when the person did it to himself. that the poor person was in the house and she and they came outside wanting to see who's giving her stuck the she's bringing it to herself yet still there Maruka jumped into the kitchen so bottom line busha if we believe kazal bush is very serious and fear if you think about fear for a second I think a modern day word that we use for fear is anxiety or being anxious and we know again teach us that now if you think about those words it we understand because if I'm embarrassed to ask I'm not going to ask the question I'm not going to get answer but it sounds like much more it's not in a bish that question someone who's a bish can't learn it's a difficult someone who's a captain can't be a rebby he can't be a malami it means even without that specific question he's in a state of anxiety and when someone's anxious their brain our brains don't work the anxious kid looks like that kid who can't concentrate looks like the kid with ADD can't concentrate he's sitting in a war zone nothing's going in his head so that that as we understand as you yeah you can get compliance with anxiousness you get compliance with fear but can you get with fear How many challenge Rabbi Goldman? Let's go back to that classroom in 1967 >> where they're all lined up in those wooden chairs with the top and the bottom and they have their number two pencil and the teacher they're all dressed like nice with their hair right. The teacher is standing in front with that long stick thing where they could point and they're saying now boys or girls take out your paper. that environment. You don't think that was a better education environment? Like sure, there is some I don't know if the word is anxiety or fear, but there's some structure that's intense. That's an intense structure. And you think that's a steer to memorizing vocabulary facts? >> No, it's not a steer memorizing vocabulary. It's not a steer to black and white thinking. But I do think that to the degree that we feel an anxiety, it doesn't sit with us. It doesn't go into our doesn't settle with us in our emotional emotional well-being. As an example, you think of a Maslo period of like someone who's holding by fear. He's at a base level of think. He's at a B. He needs his base needs taken care of. He's not ready for transcendence. He's not ready for like to touch that spirituality. We understand the difference. Someone can memorize memorize facts. But for it to go in even in lumbus, even in learning to become a lambdan, you need to like we always talk about you get to feel the you have to like right you have to really get it. That involves a whole sh that involves really being emotionally present. classroom that I just described. >> It might get you to memorize black and white facts, but it wasn't a good incubator for the deeper. Is that what you're saying? >> Yes. Yeah. And to take it a step further, really honestly, I think the next step is much more. I think the main thing for us as a Revy is beyond the facts that we're going to study, the words we're going to study or the black and white thinking or even the Saras if we get them. The main thing of being a Rebi as an example like the Ram says that in that woe was Mosher was a by hitting the rock. He says Mosha it was because he had cast. So how does that fit in? So he says that but what happened was saw Moshe angry when they saw Moshe angry they said if Mosha is angry with us it must be that Hashem is angry with us and that was because that was a misrepresentation of Hashem because Hashem tak wasn't angry the Ram says so what that what I appreciated from there is that what that means is that a the way a kid thinks of what does Hashem think of me as a human as a person what does Hashem think of me our kids come into the world and they their window to that their window to the world is If a Rebi is Dal a Malik is a of something they look at the Rebi as a personification of Hashem himself and what they what they think a Rebi thinks of them that's what they think Hashem thinks of them and there's no greater Hashem than misrepresenting Hashem to a kid. So when a kid's in that room, number one, I don't think that they learn properly. I think they feel stressed. Number two, they what the kids that sear in their mind that anxiety, that anxiousness, that feeling to to they feel that's the se that's that is who Hashem is. Number one, and that's what Hashem thinks of me. And that lesson they'll remember. I'm not sure how much you we remember from that 300 kids assembly and how many things we could quote, but that sure remember. >> But he here's the challenge and it's something that I struggle with. I'm the manal, right? I'm the guy that's supposed to give the fear to the kids, right? Michelle, but here's something that I struggle with and I struggle with my rebim and my teachers, my English teachers maybe even more because they need a little it's harder to get compliance from kids in the afternoon is we become so good at you know generally speaking as this Moa is writing we become so much better at meeting the kids where they are at being emotionally supportive and not instilling fear at not screaming right screaming is tra almost and not losing our cool and just being. But there is a consequence and the consequence is and the fallout is that it's harder to control the classroom when you're so much more not I don't receptive but you're so much more flexible to that struggling kid. You lose classroom control. you lose that a little bit of the authoritative pedestal that our teachers in Arabane can sometimes be on. And my challenge is are is there a pendulum swing? Is there a balance that you know yes fear for the sake of fear is one thing but a we all have and there should be you know but no what I mean is right but there's supposed to be and sitting when a kid's sitting in a reb's chair that's something that is not tolerated and when a kid is a mutin class it's not tolerated we don't just say well we don't want to be like the rebi from 40 years ago and we want to understand and of course we do want to understand but my challenge is I don't know if Garfield has this challenge. I don't know if Rab Goldman, you've had the challenges, is that I want to be impactful and to be allow the kids to self-reflect and allow the kids to on their own come to an understanding what they did wrong. On the other hand, I have 20 kids in the class that need to be controlled and I have recess and I have lunch and I have an assembly and if I don't throw that kid out of the assembly, then I have I lost my entire storyline in discussing the, you know, the PES. So, are we throwing out? >> Right. So, if I can jump in, I'm sorry. I think that I'm all again high school is very different than elementary school and I can only answer for that. I think that yes, when we give up some of that or some of that aura and I love how you say yurus aromas because usually because people say yurus but then utilize tools of your own that's interesting just quick a little one one quick thought on that aromas in the in the baler is a first there's your aromas comes after understanding hashem and after like the ram says after mass that's where comes and that's where your is a is right there it comes from respect exercise I like to do with get what does it mean to respect Respect somebody respect means to think highly of they say the brings by that the mitzvah of is to think that even if your fathers is to think of them as if because what it comes from is a focus is a narrow-minded focus like says if you focus on something like like a single mind like a tunnel focus you can appreciate it more you go to of anybody you can really be a master of them so your aromas comes from a kash of a person to think about them it comes from thinking highly of so I think that if us if we want our kids to have your aromas of us. I think we should focus less on your on giving them ownish and more on having them actually respect us and being worthy of that respect and being worthy of being thought highly of. So I think that would be a good exercise. But coming but okay but but coming back to to high school for a second I think is that with high school I think that yes of course we have to have control in the classroom. I think that a few things first of all our kids nowadays I think are super engaged. I don't know going I don't know may that you remember when you were kids I don't remember I don't when I was as a kid I don't remember anyone going willingly going to a to a smooz to an inspirational speech on their own time nowadays kids download kids it take intake so many smoo they listen to anything they might even listen to this podcast right they listen to to so much they have so much stuff that they take in as adults we complain all the time that asam as teachers that the kids attention spans are so short we can't get them to listen to us it's not true the kids in are thirsting for knowledge what we have is we need to be use koso And we have to see what works. What is it that they're looking for and to speak their language? Yeah. We can't just sit on a soap box and say, "You're going to listen to me no matter what I say." The onus is on us. We need they're looking to be engaged. We can engage them. >> You need compliance. >> But you compliance when you do this >> at a high school, right? At a high school level, I think that what works is when you have clear I I'm not going to use the word consequences for Garfield. When you have a clear structure with Okay. natural consequences, which are the realities of life. >> Natural. Oh, you use the word natural consequence and everyone's fine. It's a natural consequence. Oh, why didn't you say so in the first place? >> In other words, what you have to what I mean by natural consequence is I could take myself out of it. This has nothing to do with me. I'm here you if you don't you have assignments to do. You have a test to do. You have stuff to learn. If you I'm not punishing you by not giving you points on your test or not filling out your homework. This is your job. It's my job to then help you and fill that. the more that we could just be simple, create that system and then be there to help them do something which is in their best interest and then got so then that that that's to me that's the healthiest way of compliance and it puts an onus on a teacher. Yeah, you can't get up there and not have an engaging lesson and not have a reason. If a kid could come to your classroom and get a hundred and leave your classroom after 5 minutes, you know something, he should leave your classroom. It's B's mind for him to be in your classroom longer. It's on us as educator. We don't have a right to do to hold someone hostage. That's another one of the difference. That's a little signal. can't kidnap people. You need there needs to be a reason why they're in your classroom and we need to study. We need to think about it. And you know what we have honestly I think with most of our teachers in it's just confidence. They have so much to teach. They we just got to believe that we have a lot to teach and a lot to give over. >> I want to clarify about consequences real quick in case I get misqued. I'm not against consequences at all, but I don't put that above a opportunity. Like in the scenario we were discussing it was like do you have to give a consequence even though I had a way to effectively be mechanic then no I don't feel that the consequence overrides the need to do just want to say that >> I I look also at consequences and really a bigger job of a mechanic is really and at least at the high school level where they're starting to be able to be conscious of themsel and be able to be self-aware and their metacognitive skills are developing I view our main role is really to help them understand themsel and so like and as an example with the realities of consequences. I love that. Actually, I would lean into that in the sense of let's work together. This is your world. This is something you're struggling. It's between you and you to try to take myself out of it, the teacher out of it. This is you and you. Let's learn about your challenge. Let's learn about that. And your challenge might be that you have to deal with an international teacher. And that's fine. But that's part of you. That's part of you that you have a hard time. So to me, my my overall goal, my overarching goal in Kuk is really to be a mirror to the kid, to be as clear as possible who he is. not to pretend and to fake, to be as clear as possible who he is and yet still despite that picture to like him, for him to like respect and appreciate himself and to lean into himself and that happens from us when we as adults when we see a clear picture of him and we think highly of him then we give that over to them. I'm not so convinced with the premise that it's either or Rabbi Shanfel meaning the assumption of the question and it seems like you as well is that either you lead with an iron fist and you have control or you lead with compassion and you have chaos or relative chaos and like I can think of many teachers that I've experienced where they have structure, they have expectations of behavior, but they're wonderfully compassionate people. And you could have both. >> Yeah. But but you're using the wrong words. These are and I know we're not I don't know who you're talking about, but there are with the people that you're describing, it's not just they have structure. They're strong and you don't talk in their class. They're not going to be ma. They're not going to shoot bullets at you. But there are people that maybe have perfected the art of teaching in that their talid and their students, the Moras, their kids know that they love them. I will share this with you, right? I've I can almost even say who she is. I got in trouble. Too bad I'm going to say it. Mrs. Manny's is a the math teacher in retin. She can listen to this podcast and she is I called her into my office last year and Miss Man has been teaching for 20 years in our school from lady and I said to her, "Mrs. Manis, you have a gift and I need you to unpack it and teach it to the rest of us." And she says to me, "What? What do you mean?" I said, "I am petrified of you and so are all the students. [laughter] I promise." I said this to her and I'm a lost, right? I said, "I am petrified of you." When you walk into her classroom, the kids don't heap. They don't make a sound. Her classroom management, there is a whatever you word you want to use, whatever, it's there. But I'm not finished the sentence. She is everyone's favorite person in the building in the yearbook. Every year they dedicated to her that she is loved. I said, "How do you do it? You're so strong, tough on these kids." and their math scores are amaz how what's your gift how I said I'm afraid they'll walk into your classroom I'm afraid that I'm going to get in trouble and yet these kids they love you now she's a unique she's a kabador what you know >> talking about deceased here I don't want to like I don't know anything about the deceased in the question but would you say the person in the deceased >> maybe she was that maybe >> is that what it sounded like to you a blessed memory >> I don't know she's not by the way Miss Manny's her response to me was I wish I knew since I was 5 years old I was teaching menes she go up Belgian, Belgian. I was been teaching since I'm 5 years old. And she said to me a line that like we eye roll and we all say blah blah blah. And she says, "I have a purpose to teach. I believe fully in in what I'm teaching and who I'm teaching and the kids know that I love them." Which is like so basic. We all say that. But so but she has this maybe the perfect combination and that is her classroom is the best ever. They're always learning. >> Doesn't have a problem. Math needs less discussion. It's easier in math, right? It's easier in math because less >> we don't have a problem, right? Ry Goldman doesn't have a problem as long as she understands learning disabilities and differentiation and people's emotional stuff and all that stuff and she's responsive to it. She's not using fear. >> She's terrifying. >> I wonder how she's >> she's terrifying. >> I I would guess she can. It's less that she's terrorizing and more that she's very clear about her expectations. >> I didn't say terrorizing. I didn't say terrifying. The kids terrible. >> There is a fear of Miss Manny's. No one will ever miss a homework with Miss Manny's. No one will ever come late to Miss Manny's class. There are kids that will come late to every single class in eight years man except for you. I would say you have a problem with that. >> Not at all. And I was I give you slightly different fear. >> Yeah. I'll give you a slightly different example of fear. Two kinds of fear. One kind of fear is what we've been talking about. Another kind of fear is when a fear of something which is as an example when someone has a you have a big game and there's an anxiousness before the big game. You would ne most of us would never want to give that up. That's awesome. That is a fear of something valuable in my hand and I don't want to drop it. So in Mrs. Manis's class, she's maxed of her class. She's maxed to what she's doing. It's like there's kashivas going on. I don't want to mess with that. That's what urus aroma is. And that's fine. And people care. It's so rich. The air in the room is so rich. I don't want to mess it. It's like walking into I don't want to disturb. Not that anyone's going to scream me. No one knows who I am. Maybe that it could be. But it's also like there's a richness here and I don't want to drop it. It's like I'm carrying something precious and I don't want to drop it. So yeah, I am a little nervous. >> Missing that, but so are we missing that today? Most of our classes don't have that and they don't have that almost on purpose. >> I'm not going to judge that. I do think in a lot of classes we do have that and I think a teacher who's on fire and does care about that a lot does have that. You're right. I think sometimes people are scared. I also think that sometimes even in that environment there aren't downsides of that because yeah, even when you have something so so there's a lot of people who don't play up to that. There's a lot of the stats in the big game sometimes go down and some people do get scared to shoot and they play a little hot potato with the ball because even though they're not even though they love it and they they thrive off that I don't want this is not the Miss Manny's podcast but our math scores in our school are like the highest of any subject. >> But that doesn't mean again math is a little different. That doesn't mean >> are there any kids that don't do well with her? No, she's like the Mount Rushmore. She's the most >> It could be. That's a great point. But I also think that ma math is again different. Math is a black and white subject. It doesn't mean >> it doesn't mean to their emotional state of being and that they're there. It could be >> 100%. >> I think also going back to engagement, I think one thing that we need to focus on is a focus on engaging the kids. And yeah, in first I agree not every environment are you ready to have a 300k assembly and sometimes tackle because of this issue that you don't have fear. >> You run I know heal is a very large school. There's 300 kids in this school basically, right? Do you want 300 ink assemblings yourself? >> 220. Yeah. Yes and no. When it is, it's only when it's a kind of thing which naturally has that aura to it. First of all, I want I'm very careful to think and not just for myself to all of us, any programming we're doing, how long can it be? When can it be? And I'm not thinking for myself that the pass this is that they're going to be super engaged. I have to think very carefully. >> When you run an assembly for 220 kids, >> I'm thinking how short that's going to be. >> You're thinking how short it's going to be. But you're also you're walking in with a whole what I call the man the game face. face. It's a very different face than when you're subbing for the Beakas Rebby, right, on a Thursday. Very different face, right? >> And you know, again, you have to think, you have to be real, realistic about what the crowd is, what the crowd's ready for, how long the same thing is true. You have this a really long diving and after long d every second that the long diving is longer, you have to think about that kid and how he's thinking there. And you know what? It might not be the time to give that speech right then. You have to like that has to be all dive for us. And yeah, we could put fear into them, have them, and have them sit for the next four hours. Yeah, but that's not healthy. They're not going to learn like that. So, we add that kind of thinking. That's a healthy environment. I think also again engaging thinking about how they need to be be engaged and reaching them there and sometimes reaching them it doesn't mean less. I think one thing we some slip into that this is for the lesser student or this is for the kid who can't concentrate. No, this could be true even in a super bright kid and a super you know I think that that if I had to guess all three of us in this room at time where there were environments where we were like super power and uber focused and super into it and it wasn't necessarily from the someone else giving us a speech for four hours. It was when we were able to learn in the style that we were we wanted to we were able to when someone thought when it was we were engaged in the style we were engaged in when we were able to use our brain and let that horse run like you gota so you have to know how to you have to think about that how to create that a classroom environment like I think that some myself as an example when I give she give shir this is the first time I'm not giving shir in the past 16 years when I give shir I often if I had if my I had resoning skills in gumar the way I taught she was almost mamish the opposite of is that he if I nowadays if I would teach she like him so I would be teaching skills incredibly but like the kids I again I might be wrong but my perception is the kids would be bored stiff letting and so like to me she's I got to grab them and the kids are flying as my mish they're like they're loving it but yeah and then I got to fold the skills in and think about how I'm getting those skills in there so like I think that we have to think how to reach these kids and how to engage the kids and without using an external fear factor >> is there any place where you feel we've gone too far where like not obviously near yeshiva and the hal but when you look at the landscape of and the way psychologists are always involved and do you ever feel we're is there an area where you feel we're maybe getting close to being too soft or too easy >> I think that that it's a great question I think that we need to believing in the power of Torah and the power of as we told him before power of us being a model if a rebi ever loses that meaning if a kid looks at his rebi as that deion of hashem so then The Rebi has this amazing opportunity to teach the kid about Hashem and to teach the kid about the beauty of Torah, but what it means to embody Torah and then also teach the kid what Hashem thinks about him. The moment that it slips into that the kid thinks of his rabbi no longer as that model of Hashem as that that it slips into he's my friend and I don't have that value of him. I don't then we've gone too far. So I wouldn't say systematically we have that but I would say in circumstances we can have that in terms of understanding people's needs. I think and do you text your tonid? The honest truth is that I text much less than I've texted in the past and part of it is could be because I'm not teaching them. I'm not a rebi. So that in the past you would it's not it sounds like it's not >> but it's not a fair dim because it depends where different environments things mean different things. So to compare from one environment to another is not fair. Like as an example >> one of my administrators recently got an email from a student a younger student in the school. I had an idea for a school and I said to that administrator please don't respond to that email. There's a kid emailing administrator school is a little different. Yeah. But there are >> problem every environment is different. I I know but that's always the the straddling that you have to do is if I tech do I play ball with tidim do I text that's where and every of course every yes is yeshiva is different every is different you have to maintain that sura of of a rebby verse a friend can always be challenging >> exactly I think also in terms of of when we look at psychology and I think one of the one of the proud one of the hills that we still have to climb as a community is that even those who are into psychology or even those who are into psychology is people look at it as goes but even are into feelings into emotions into to midos development. We usually look at that as for the soft kid. I think it's the second that you start talking about your yeshiva or rebi who's into that stuff. People all of a sudden acquaint you must be some kind of B-level yeshiva. You're for like the kids as like the is just to have a head and nama and that's something which we us as a community we s we really need >> I'm going to share an amazing story with you. I said I said this story a bunch of podcasts ago so it bears repeating and that is I know someone that opened in Lakewood of Bear and he came to bear with the following suffic he says I have a half hour to spend at night with my I could either spend it on the 10% that struggle with mental health and disc that's what he said to him and discuss you know mental health or I could sit to the 90% that are on him and I could talk about Rajbuz and what should I spend my time on and bear told him who's not known to be such a progressive right the kasha is a toes the 96% also need mental health right this is this right so you're of false >> very good yeah I think and to me what I have in is I have a wide range there's four levels of shirim and they're vastly different and this particular prat it's in a certain sense in in in to to many it's like it's much harder for someone who's really doing and learning hours outside of yeshiva way and has never made a mistake and never hit a wall in his life. It's much harder for him to find his feelings and to find his to be vulnerable and to open up. >> He's never had to. >> Yeah. So I think that that what I like to do is to f is first of all in when you talk about things in just the overall create a certain atmosphere and environment to become safe and then everyone is able to feel it. the way you act and deal with some in one environment then others see it and they become they learn from that and I'm I too am a human and I can do that too and then also to capitalize on the mini car crashes and like when a kid does encounter trouble which we will is to grab those and to to really to help him engage himself and to learn about himself. >> Wonderful. Beautiful. >> Well, thank you Ray Goldman. This is really great. We did cover a lot and it's nice to meet you. We've interacted along the years but it's nice to spend some good time with you and I think we could have fun. We could continue this Mashem, you know. >> Mash and you guys are doing you're doing great things and you're having having a great time. >> Thank you. >> All right. Well, that was wonderful. I know it's great. It's great to go back to old camp rivalries. I enjoyed that aspect of it. >> Well, it's not it was not a camp rival. You were not camp >> rivals. Stick to the head. Does a rivalry make? >> Yeah, he was much a much better athlete than me in hockey when I think he's a year older than me. Definitely a grade older than me. He skipped a lot of grades as you can hear from his very bright and thoughtful person but an exceptional mechanic and Shami got a window into that and covered a lot of big topics and big conversations. That's what we're here for to talk about big things. >> Well, thank you everyone for joining us on the learning curve. I'd like to share the feedback information because we do love that. You could call 443686-9339. That's 443-6869339. Or you can always send an email to the learning curve atmishbucka.com. That's the learning curve atmishbucka.com. Thank you everybody. It's always so much fun to hear from our listeners. So keep the feedback coming.