S3 Eps 1. Let's Talk Students Under Pressure

Just because you have a hush of a clientele parents means that every single kid is you know is a mitsun is academically. So how do you do that >> in our day and age where every single person has a platform to give their opinion on everything and anything. It's actually super important to have grounded knowledge of what is to MS and what's just the opinion of the latest Insta celebrity >> to be able to spit back information. My kusi used to call me a Chinese tape recorder like I could say it back. I have no clue what I'm saying, but I could say it back. Is not really education. >> Welcome to the Learning Curve podcast brought to you by Mishbaha Magazine. >> We're raising children in a changing and challenging world. >> So, let's tackle the important issues [music] facing families today. I'm Rabbi Garfield, manal of Yeshiva Turos in Houston and I love talking about >> I'm Rabbi Ari Shfeld Manal of Yeshiva Katana Manhattan of Bypra Manhattan [music] director of camp. I also love talking and of course a little bit of fishing. >> Join us as we answer your questions and discuss the topics that matter to parents the most. Season three is upon us. Rrookim Habim, welcome back to everybody. And Rabbi Garfield, we had a little bit of a of a taste of back to school session, but this is now it's for real. And maybe you want to tell the listeners what's new and unique about this um season of the learning curve. >> Well, if they're watching us, they figured it out that we are joining the rest of the world who have production with video. So, we're trying this out. It's new and exciting. >> We have to now behave. We can't make faces to each other at each other. But really, this is something that we've grown to really enjoy doing together. Barashem, the feedback has been beautiful and mostly positive, but still sounds like we've engaged our listeners and our parents and some bakim to really care about in we try to stay in our lane and offer our opinions, our opinionated opinions. We love what we do and we try to share with our audience. Yeah, absolutely. I didn't realize I was in the Northeast over the summer, you know, visiting uh important camps and just visiting Yeshiva and other things like that, family, and the amount of people who had like either recognized me or had comments like I didn't realize, you know, how many people are listening and how involved it is and it was really great and it was it was very positive. Of course, people always would say, I love the way you said this to Rabbi Shfel or love the way he said that and like a little hawk, but that was great. That's all part of uh fun. >> Someone asked me who's who's your target audience. You could have a different audience. I think there's mainly three segments from society. It's mothers who listen to many podcasts to try to help their children, boys and girls. It's a Shiva Bakram who use their MP players to get in on the hawk. And it's couples who are going to weddings in Lakewood. It's the third group. I can't tell you how many people tell me, you know, I was driving the lake with my wife and we're like, you know what, let's put on Learning Curve. [laughter] >> It's it's a great opportunity because then they could argue about the issues and pontificate and go on rants. >> No, and it's perfect because if you're coming from like New York to Lakewood is like an hour, hour and 10, so you wait to get on the highway. It's literally we I think we've we've hit the sweet spot. Well, we always need a number at the end, but just in case you're that guy, you guys could call us and leave a message from the car at 4436869339. That would be awesome. Bring us right in. Bring us into the car. So, let's explain for our new listeners um of how we like to work our podcast so we can get right to it. Enough of the chitchat. We try to deal with a couple of small topics a week and then a spotlight question. This week, our spotlight question is exciting. We have two guests coming up which we'll discuss and we deal with some smaller issues and larger issues. They're all very important issues. So, I think question one you're going to ask me and then I ask you two. Hopefully, we'll see how many questions we get to. You'll ask me question three. We'll take it from there. Go. >> Here we go. >> All right. Here's the first question for season 3. On the learning curve, what do I do for my son who loves cap? Oh, please. Enough with the cap. Everyone is saying that. Okay, it's okay. >> Yeah, >> we know. Okay. What do I do for my son who loves camp and learning groups that has a hard time getting to school during the week and refusing to go on Sunday? >> Yeah. So, there's a lot of assumptions in that email from a parent that I as a camp director will definitely not try and refute. And that is the assumption that her son, whoever this mother is, was on time to share groups in camp. Right? I don't know why she's assuming that. I see it's in parenthesis. And I think he was on time to shock and learn groups. I don't know why she assumes that but okay. So obviously a challenge of getting up in the morning in camp and then not wanting to go to school. I remember in Shyra one el's man right the beginning of this man Roberts he gave a schmoo about not needing a lot of sleep and like you know comes complaining I'm tired I miss because I was tired or I couldn't learn because I was tired and I need more sleep rebby. And he says last week during kalore you didn't sleep for 3 days and the last four weeks in camp you slept 5 hours a night four hours a night and he was like camp is ava I know they're going to be you see you could do it without sleep but there's obviously there's an excitement and an adrenaline rushing camp that doesn't happen in yeshiva >> also chakras is probably later easier to get to but anyway we'll leave it >> there's two very I think distinct questions here >> what time is chakra person camp where to jump in at your camp. >> So my camp sh is 8:40. It really depends. Most camp shakers is around 8:30 unless you're on camp time. Then at 7:30 school, >> oh yeah, it's an hour earlier, right? 7:40 7:45 by >> if you have to be in your school at 7:30. You have to be up at >> you >> got to wake up early. The other part of this question, which is Sunday, Sunday, you know, we dealt with this, I believe, in an article in TLC talks in the magazine. Sunday is a different schmoo because Sunday half your kids are home, right? the girls are off on Sunday. So, it's a little bit of a different conversation. By and large, the kid that's struggling to get up. I there's there's just, you know, this causation and correlation. You're assuming that there's a correlation between yeshiva and camp. Children generally want to go to school because everyone goes to school and you don't want to feel left out because that's what people are doing. If your child doesn't want to go to school, that means your child is unhappy in school. It's not because your child is tired and it's also not because camp was so amazing and yeshiva isn't as exciting as camp is. Of course that's true. But the the typical kids, no one likes school. Everyone can't wait for the snow days. But kids go to school because all their friends go and it's the normal accepted thing to do. If your kid is not getting up on time in the morning, then there's a reason for that. Maybe he's up later at night that he could handle. Maybe he's not happy with his something. and go there's a social challenge in school. It's such an easy pinata to just go ahead and say, "Oh, you can't. It's fun. If yeshivas would have more fun, the kid would go to school in the morning." It's just not true. There there's you have to figure it out. Don't just say it's a yeshiva because just because they're not fun. There's a reason for it and it's your to find that out. >> I hear you. Yeah. I mean, I think some kids just have a hard time getting up. It's a challenge. I don't really have an easy answer for it. And by the way, mommy, the kid that had a hard time getting up during the year has a hard time getting up in camp. Right. Right. We don't like we don't call the parents when the kids but right you know when but the kids there's a reason why we have incentive programs in camps and counselors are pulling covers off. Right. Kids have a hard time getting up. Do not in camp pop up every day and get up for shakers. It's just not true. It's a struggle for them as well. >> We had an interesting discussion in Houston about Sunday. So Sunday here used to be we've been slowly making it more substantial and more serious and the last step before this year was there's still no uniform requirement and it was the rebum came and said basically like and you know the consensus of all the people involved was that it makes even though it's nice for the kids to be able to be more chilled I guess but it creates this vibe that's very hard to make substantial day. So, you know, even though we were trying to be nice by being more relaxed, sometimes that could backfire in a certain way. >> Y >> So, this year it's like totally regular, you know, regular dress code like regular expectations. >> What is your dress code? Do you let her call for sneakers in >> We don't have a sneakers. Sneakers are not part of the >> That makes two of us. So, the kids wear the non-matching sneakers. They wear those. >> Uh, you mean like one's blue and one's yellow or something? >> Yes. Honestly, [laughter] I haven't noticed that, but I guess that would not be a violation of our >> Yeah, we don't have a rule. We let the kids wear I guess what they want. Is >> that a thing? Do you buy them like that? You have to buy two sets and then >> No, that's my big joke is Oh my gosh, you left but you got jipped off by the store. No, it's very fancy, very I don't know which who. Probably some NBA player that Yeah. One's green and yellow and one is red and orange and like >> Yeah, very gushmack. >> Wow. So, do you allow that or do you have a rule against that? Yes, I do. I I kibits it. A parent asks me. I say I'd prefer you not to, but I don't I don't stop it. >> Yeah. I don't know. There's you know there's a certain yeshiva, you know, don't mention this name. I'm sure this is common where they rule about socks because the kids were wearing colorful socks and sometimes it gets a little out of control. Just let the kids wear them and like we'll all be okay. Well, you know, >> to each his own. >> All right. So, that was a soft that Fed question was like a little bit of like a spring training question. >> Yeah. Yeah. Warm us up. Oh, the Sunday and the camp and yeshiva ready for a heavy hitter. >> Yeah. >> We go from spring training to playoffs. >> This is a very sensitive question. It's why I decided I want you to have this and not me. So, here we go. Dear learning curve, we had a very hard year financially and ended the last school year with a lot of tuition unpaid. My husband is still searching for a job and my salary is not covering our basic bills, mortgage, food, car, utilities. Our children's school did not allow them in until tuition was caught up, but we've already maxed out credit cards, favors, and loans. How is this fair to my child? >> Wow. >> I guess this was written before the school year started. We're now recording this, you know, well into the school year, and I hope that something was worked out. It would be horrible if the children are home at this point. The answer is it's not fair. It's not fair. I don't know. Life, it's hard. >> Wait, I have one second. She wasn't asking whether it's fair or not. She was asked, I think, is this acceptable practice of a school to hold the kid out because the parents can't afford to pay tuition or can't pay tuition. Listen, it's impossible for me to judge another school and the situation and you know, but I would say generally speaking, if it's true that the family really is doing their best and they haven't been derelictked and they haven't lied and they haven't played games and they're pushed struggling, my understanding of dto and this and the situations that I've had conversations about is that you need to work with the family and you do not kick the kid out. However, you know, often there is more complexity to it and I remember one conversation we had with Kameki should be well and I believe this was even said publicly at a convention that if the parents aren't being menlook like if they're lying or they're playing games then you do not have to necessarily go down that rabbit hole because it puts the school in an impossible situation. But assuming that's not the case then my understanding is that the school should make it work. Now the school has a right to say to the community in organization or to ask the parents to help raise money or you know it's not just like dump on the school but certainly the school I would think really should lead the way to make it work. We have an to these kids. If they're not in your school yet, that's a different story, right? But these are children that you took for and they've been with you for years and you're invested in their and you care about them as human beings. You can't just say, "I'm sorry you lost your job." Or, you know, it's just not how it works. >> Yeah. So, I I don't I'm uncomfortable even discussing this topic because I like to stay in my lane of where I feel it's a little bit Mayaas and decision-m. I don't think this is a man's decision. This is not a shila. This is as you said a dyra shila maybe for the ven of the yeshiva for the the pis of the yeshiva. This is not a sh I this is really isn't a question that a manel should have to deal with. You know a monetary fight for lack of a better word between the yeshiva and the parents. So, so I'm uncomfortable having this conversation cuz I really don't like to enter into arenas where I just it's muddy and it's a little dirty and it does ruin the purity of what we're attempting to do as those involved in it's you know every Shiva has had stories like these type of delicate horrible painful situations challenge always is usually when a parent agrees to pay a certain amount right into a contract that they sign in March And then the parent comes and says I can't pay it. You know if the schools had no recourse and if yeshivas just said okay then you then the will not be able to function right tuitions are painful tuitions are expensive very and yeshivas have to be able to apply pressure because there's always a hierarchy for parents right this mother says we've already maxed out credit cards favors loans and we have a bills mortgages this is always again this is not a question for me as anal of what comes comes first to may is the yeshiva's tuition first or is the maybe you shouldn't have two cars you should have one car these are totally unfair conversation to have just my point is that if yeshiva doesn't have the ability to apply pressure to a parent and to quote unquote threaten then the yeshiva will be sometimes just put last on the list and then oh I don't have to pay yeshiva so I'm going to pay everything else and everyone else back and then the yeshivas can't function so a lot of times this quote unquote threat we won't let your son into yeshiva your daughter until you pay is a way of just putting the tuition higher up on the totem pole and the parents pay and the kid gets in. You tell me I don't know of scenarios where parents really couldn't pay and the yeshiva believed them and yeshiva didn't take the child. But there is that uncomfortable timeline of we can't pay tuition. Well then I'm sorry your son can't come to yeshiva right and that opening conversation is really negotiations. That's what it is, right? And as painful as it is, yeshivas need to have some sort of leverage or just >> whatever threat, these are horrible words, but yeshivas have to be able to pay the bills also. >> Okay, few comments. One is in my role, I understand like there are some schools where the manal is like only like in my personal position as a manal, I'm the head of school. I'm more like a CEO of the whole operation. So like ultimately >> you get involved in finances. You disc you discuss with parents contracts and tuitions. No, but I oversee it. So if there is a problem, I don't get involved. I don't know what people pay, but if there's dysfunction, if people feel mistreated, if you know there's a shila, if you know there's issues that need to go up, it comes up to me before it'll go. >> So I don't I go over the budget. I'm responsible for the budget, meaning for making sure I'm within the budget and all that stuff. >> But I don't deal with tuition. It's allows me from a different >> Yeah. But that said, I want to share with you an insight and like, you know, we have to be careful everyone. You know, we're not trying to beat up on anyone. It's we're all in it together. We're trying our best. And but I just want to say that there's a philosophy with regard to tuition collection that you should treat your parents who pay tuition like donors that they're really giving to me nephesh and we have to have a certain attitude of appreciation where you cultivate, you know, you cultivate that relationship and then it pays off. And so I wonder if in the big picture over five years or 10 years if you assume the best of everyone and treat them well and you know they go up they go down they come they give you we've had parents who sent us a check for a few thousand dollars because they did better than they anticipated financially which is rare. So I just wonder if our attitude would shift a little from talking about leverage and you know threats. You're right. In that particular transaction, you might not do well, but like ultimately is it not worth it to just have shalom and not like how much money is really going to be lost? >> You're giving business advice that that he should know it's better for the school long term to collect money that okay then you can have someone else give a different business advice. The question is, is it appropriate for yeshiva to say to a parent who says, "I know I told you I'll pay you $3,000. I just can't." Does she have a right to tell the parents, "Really, you can't?" >> Show me. Is that I mean is that >> right? So I guess what I'm saying is even if they have the right it might not be smart. That's what I'm saying as someone who's done this and lives this and and then the big picture if you don't get focused on this one power struggle but you say big picture the school is going to be around for a long time. These relationships that kids could be in your school for 15 years they go up they go down. You know, we have found that ultimately cultivating those relationships ends up in the big scheme and there are some people who take advantage. It's true, >> right? But you don't feel as but you don't think there are I won't talk to you specifically that there are roy meas that feel like here this parents begging me for a break and they can't and then for they go to Orlando and it turns out that their grandparent paid for the tickets so why can't they collect their grandparents tuition, right? This there's no easy answer to this >> all the time but you know okay so then what? So you're gonna take him to small claims court. There's a limit to what you could do. The best, you know, you're going to get the best out of it by cultivating a positive relationship. I do have one more thing to say. I think we do as school leaders have to understand that, you know, like you have to know what you're dealing with. You have to know your own emotionality. You have to know the school has to know who they're talking to. But the amount of pain that we're causing could be significant. And we I just have to be cautious about it. >> Just to end this story, I don't know of any stories like this, right? And I don't know if you do of a story of a kid today who wanted to go to yeshiva and the parents came and said we pushet can't pay we just lost my job or and yeshiva said no. >> Yeah I don't >> I don't know that. >> All right it's great to bring on a very special guest a dear friend of mine Rabbi Ari Smith who's the manal at Terra Zv the manal the middle school. Rabbi Smith how many tidum are there in the middle school? >> 275. >> Wow. And you're the only manal or do you have an assistant? So I am full-time assistant by Morai Winganger. >> Very nice. >> And the assistance in all areas. >> How long have you been there for? >> I just finished my 10th year. I was already there for three years. I just finished my seventh years, but no. >> Beautiful. >> Rabbi Smith has is we're not going to say over the story, but is the balamisa of one of the most hush of a stories. It may have been said on this podcast, but I think I changed a lot of the details, so I'm not going to out anybody, >> but a very hush story happened the last couple of years. That's how I got to know him I think through email and then we met at ter convention but happy to have you aboard. >> Okay, welcome Rabbi Smith. Rabbi Schumfeld ask the question. >> So this is our spotlight question which we like to spend some time on. So we Rab Smith will deal with this from a middle school perspective and then we'll have Mrs. Alisa Federer join us afterwards maybe from a high school girls perspective. But here's the question. I think it's a question that anyone that has, you know, kids, maybe at any age, but over the age of 10, can relate to. The school year just started and my kids are already stressed. My sixth grade son is now in middle school. More teachers, more work, and a wonderful Rebi who says that Gamarra Khazar always come first and is a must every night. My 10th grade daughter has nothing but memorizing Jewish history, memorizing, memorizing timelines. Why are we putting so much pressure on these kids? Real life will come either way. Why can't they just enjoy the last few years of being a child even while in school? There has to be another way. And then in brackets, I dare you to find one mother who thinks differently. [laughter] >> Garfield likes a dare. So that's Smith. The question of, you know, maybe it's an age-old question. pressure in yeshiva's good thing bad thing finding balance >> so you didn't introduce me enough but after introducing you I'm coming to lakewood and in lakewood this is definitely a very topic >> topic that's discussed that's what you mean like a big tumult >> no very strong I guess not top very strong part of our culture so it goes like this what we all want to get to is we want to kids will be the top, right? He wants a kid to be hammed. He wants to be the best. He go the best is yeshiva. He can make the best and he could do all that's just what we all strive to do. Now, there's a process to get there. It's not just uh they want it. So I get the way it works is is that if someone wants his son to get into or to be from that type of bakar he's going to want from the sixth seventh is being very involved in his learning. Now whatever I'm saying now is strictly for boys and not for girls not the high school not very strictly for boys. an unfair question. Can you label at Perisv for our listeners? You're in the middle, you're toward the right. The Lakewood has 200 yes, but where are you in the Lakewood world? >> So, we are the elite right >> meaning not it's two different it's two different it's rel like how fum you are whatever that means and how academic you are. You're saying you're both >> to in simple English 99.5% of our parent body is still in either learning or parents are very very and we have 1100 who's the so we're talking about a very rightwing and you know that we definitely with this culture that we want our kids to be from the top everybody wants to top now there there is a way to get to it without, you know, the whole heaviness. The really ultimate goal is to give the kid that Kishmak and he should be able to connect to it and be able to appreciate enjoy what the only way that he could have really have the gishmak is if he's doing it. I just throw out a small story that I had when I became a rabbit. I think my second year and I used to get very into my tests. I taught sixth grade three years and I used to get very test mainly that it was a platform for me to build the tallet like he did well. I was able to call his parent. I was able to give him something. I was able to it was a document that I was able to work off. So I had this kid I think it was the third or fourth week of school and parent calls me up that I don't know if you noticed with the past three Sundays my son did not come. I said okay. He said you know you know why it doesn't come. He's very turned off. He's very pressure to test the test. I said, "All I need for you is one. I need you to give me three weeks that he comes does the test and then we'll talk after that." And of course, I did it with and I did it with the right understand the right pressure. But I showed him that he could do it and I showed him that he was succeeding and I was able to build him. I the parents still he just came to my office last week to tell me where he is in when you have platforming for a kid to be and he's doing things and you're able to show it to him there's nothing more valuable than that. Now, if a boy doesn't have pressure, so we just tell him be a kid, you don't have to do anything. And you know what I'm saying? It's true. He's gonna coast along and he's gonna enjoy and everything's gonna be fine. You're not really going to be able to give him that inner satisfaction age appropriate that he feels that he's productive and he's doing what he's supposed to be doing and you can build him for the next step in his life. I just want to add one more thing for Garfield. But we have a senior manava also fal he's been you know he's very 80y and he comes you know from time to time and I remember the first year that he first year that I was teaching so that all man in my room by orientation they were all you know very involved he said oh a very nice piece on homework right everyone's doing homework and homework and I think I wrote it on the group there's one thing a boy's learning gumar and he closes Gumar at 2 o'clock and he doesn't reopen his m till the next day 9:00 talk only is very clay. He's not legging. He's not involved in this one. Not about he doesn't he's not connecting to me. He's not feeling but boy goes home at night besides should how much pressure not pressure but he's open up that Bakama again and he's reviewing it. He feels more connected. Now of course it should be done with pressure and the Rebly getting loads of homework and worksheets today. You know I have a Rebi that made the boys fill out two pages of worksheets for homework. I'll be honest with you. I tried stopping him many times. I got him I moved him out of the division so I don't for now but he's the devil should not be get intense pressure because then it's taking away what we're trying to get the ultimate goals that a bush had but the way to get to is by giving him the opportunities to do it and show him that he's successful. Do you find that some kids it doesn't work for? >> So if I find that it doesn't work for some kids the odoral system, but if I myself and the parents and the case manager and the rebby focus on the kid, we could find something in between that could be a modified system that we could get the same results without the kid having to do the entire quarter of that home. just he's coming along doing five minutes or he's getting a kusa or he's long with another boy his age there's something to do for everyone everyone is capable something but if we do nothing but again that for those kids you focus >> one more question very short just if I can you mentioned that your school is self- selective to some extent which you could be in Lakewood in the sense that you only take people from a certain cal or certain culture if let's say you had to take everybody like you had a sample size of like one of each school in your school would you think that this philosophy would work? So I'll be very honest that in the past few years we started getting um one from each size. I have nowish I have palabates I have you know brought the older grades boys know they come from different schools where their options of size pay may not be their choice right now. They need a school where someone's going to look at them and take them in. I mean this year we took in a bunch of boys all different types all different types. Again it's the same thing. If there's focus, everyone is possible. Everyone is shy to do to to an extent. The reason why I'm saying focus because if there's no focus, automatically the system may be too much for them >> too much and not on the level. They might not also come from that same home background that's expecting their children to be on that level. >> That's what I'm saying. Like some schools have like Rabbi Shfel School and my school we have a range of all sorts of stuff going on you know level of interest level of commitment level of intelligence like everything. I believe that even in our schools you could create a culture what we're trying to get same thing maybe much less doesn't have to be that 20 minutes a night and they're not learning as much Jamar as us but the same model that is accountability and we want the boys to feel good about what they're doing and we want them to succeed that could be done in any culture >> 100% 100%. Is there an un like a certain haka an understanding and maybe an okayess that there will be kids that just maybe because of they don't have the intellect they're not they're not strong enough they have start reading this ability or there's whatever the reasons is this doesn't work for everybody so is the han of and I don't want to sing like yurish but is the han of this system that there will be quote unquote I don't want to use the word carbonis right but there are going to be kids that are going to fall off but since it works for 90% or whatever the number is then you know right so so is that the is that accepted is that an acceptable consequence >> so I tell you how by us we very much the lot of resources a lot of resources there's tender touch there's on track there's evaluations kabus I mean we live in a town where everything's including food and saying that whenever we're trying to focus and zoom into a kid there's always something to work on there's no I mean the kids that are we pull carbonas or they come usually comes from an emotional place so we can't this is not what caused not there's nothing we need to do it's more of an emotional >> but if you have this a pressure or an expectation or a push where elite rightwing beautif beautifully said right in an elitist school which I have nothing there's listen five adults Harvard is an elitist school and everyone wishes their son was there right and but there are kids that are not elite academically in learning so you're going to get them help and you're going to get them a mentor and but how are they not meant to feel as a bid as a failure if they can't do shakar of the whole paracinus and they can't give a kabura in eighth grade on with raam and tyis How are they meant to feel bride and feel a kaik and feeling a se and a if they aren't elite and there's I can't imagine they're yeshiva just because you have a kash of a clientele parents means that every single kid is you know is a mitzv is academically so how do you do that it seems to me all that's to me if you could do that then you know wow >> you mentioned shakai we have a mass shakai program that We put a lot of courageous into it and the basically the way it works is that we hire two we have two full-time testers version of them you know you light that are here to test and they have rit and it starts prizes throughout the me so I believe we from a kid's perspective he measures his success based on if he's on the trail that's how I feel my part might not park p me they go on the trail not park I work some the years have managedly successfully were able to get everybody who wanted to be on the trip. >> What percentage of the of the middle school goals on the trip out of 275? >> 272. >> 272. That's a pretty good number. >> I'll tell you what I'm doing because at the same time that the pressure is up. First of all, let's say the shock of the tide. There are some schools, even from the right elite schools, they're very into like, okay, we want to show off and we want to show that half hour our student of our student body could do the whole shakar and they'll build it into the program that you could do the whole shak I don't do because I don't have anything for them. Those boys, they'll do what they want. They're not getting much and only makes the other boys feel much much less. So, we do the shakai program in a way that's not extreme. It's something that's doable. Let's say I have a few boys that can't do it. So, no problem. You could come with your gar. You could read from inside. It's okay. You can't you said you said your peace and you got to or you have boys that don't come so often. We make you to go on the trip. You have to go say nine out of 36 times. >> So, Smith, you're a faker. You say you're a pressurized yeshiva, but you're not because I'm saying this in a complimentary way. You're not because you're not pressurizing because the kid that can't right. So you're not to me this is elite but you're not an elitist because you have kids. I don't mean right. >> Make the standard sucks that only 50% pull it off but those 50% are going to be mitsuyanim. >> There's no because everyone has the same problem that you have. I have the same problem that you have. What are we doing? Creating a system to kill kids. So we create a culture culture strong. A culture is mitain. No, let's say it slow. What's your culture? >> The culture is that everyone that there's very big emphasis in being >> Rabbi Smith, isn't that a little juvenile? Like imagine you're playing basketball. You played basketball in all of football. You know what that is? The sport with the ball. You seem like you might have done that once. Everyone has to be Charles Barkley or whatever the I don't know who's today. You know, everyone has to be Michael Jordan. I mean, that's silly. It's silly. It's just not how the world is. And we can't say everyone's a Matsuian. It's silly. Everyone is a Matsian. >> That's my definition. Not what I'm >> saying. I think what I think the way to understand it is that what do we really give Pam? What do we really give? >> Being the best you could be one that's doing the best that he could learn, >> right? The best he could be. But there's no >> the best you could be. Not the brisker, not the guy who like >> But a guy he's who's not doing anything doesn't care. >> But if he's doing the best he could be, he's doing the best you are. And they the kids what are they seeing in their house? They're seeing a father that's giving hara giving recognition to that's what they're getting for they they're either themsel they're on a you know kabur or not they see what their father goes for. The father doesn't go for vacations and doesn't go for Sunday off and not it's not what he's spending his day with. He's spending his day in the med. Does it mean everybody's father is hammedy? >> No. There's a work ethic is different, but mitsuyan to me is a level of accomplishment. It's a level of brakite. It's a level of shakaria. That's what a mitsuyan is to me. You're you have two definitions of a mitsuyan. To me, if you say my kid's a msuyan, you mean he's very smart. He's a big masmid and he's really into learning. That's what I think when I hear it. But okay, if you do that, you've limited the scope to I don't know 20%. How many mitsanum are there? But if you say my whole school is for mitsion, I mean, okay, what do you mean by that? I don't know what that means. >> When I was when I was a rebby, I in my first year teaching at YSV, I had the week class. So I met a rebby of mine and he said to me, he knew what do you do? I said, I'm Reb Spring Valley. What do you teach? I said, I teach a seventh grade mitzion. And he said, "Ah, I do the same thing in my I know what that means." [laughter] So Rabbi Smith, you can't have your cake and eat it, too. Unless it's a marketing ploy, and everyone should be listening that Zev is Mitsuyan. wink wink and we'll go along with it. But if you want to talk, you can't be Mitsuanim and the populist at the same time. It's a steam. >> Right. That's what I'm saying. You're talking and I don't mean to gang up on you because No, but to me the compliment is >> he thought he was coming to an easy >> It sounds like that somehow this is the secret sauce. It sounds like somehow you're able to create a culture whereas of Tyra and is really everything much more than maybe in a typical environment and yet and this is that yet which is the go if you're able to do this than yet the kid that doesn't isn't able to reach that yet the kid who struggles in shakire the kid who has a crea problem the kid who has ADD so he really ADHD so he really can't sit he's still able to go on the trip by thinking he's a Mitsuyan then that's brilliant. >> I thought Let me take that last long said he thinks he's a Mitsu. They don't walk around that they that's not what the cultures when we talk about the level the what level the teaching on the are teaching on the highest level that they teach. >> What if the kid can't make it? >> So good. That's what I'm saying. That's where we have to create a system within the system. You know, I just say like if I was in Manhattan out of town, you okay? And I had I didn't have that let's say the parent body behind me or I didn't have the shifa behind me and I was just focusing on let's say every year I would change my level. I would look at the kids and see say okay what's the level this year >> which we do in our yeshiva or you do your yeshiva I imagine. >> Yeah to a large extent but I would think you would do it there too because even there are levels within levels. No, >> what I'm saying is that our level is high. The level is high because that's what the parent body wants. That's what >> is it high because your kids happen to be brighter than academically IQ than others and self- selective. No, I think that means to them more. This I hear from reban and substitutes from in within lakewood that go see a difference in a minute from and whatever I call more elect more left I just mean parent body more that's all you see a difference the kids in sixth and seventh grade are busy with other things versus learning being now doesn't mean every kid is like that doesn't mean that every class I have now a class one out of my 11 classes the ru the class is not to learn. It's not going to it's a problem. It's a big struggle to play because he's sitting here used to always teaching on a certain level and here the class is just not into I went in there to yesterday and was not great and the reb is very on board and he understood all this before I came so he did it really easy to bring it out to him but it's something that we have to do. Yeah, I'll let go finish. But to me, Smith, this I'm not here to patronize or give you any, I don't know, advice or push. But a class like that in Tyra Zev, that will to me show, you know, how real everything is. In other words, if you're able, and again, my experiences with you minimal, have been very flashive. I wish I could share the stories I've heard from how you dealt with firsthand. But if you're able to take a class of let's call them non mitsuyanim kids that aren't naturally into learning they don't fit the perfect mold of the yeshiva and if they leave 8th grade whatever misfit they go to feeling that they have a toash of that is or the culture that your families and your yeshiva are mach that's gold that to me would be super impressive if you have a shiva that has everyone's all the way up here and then you have a group that's lower and you're able to still have them feel the same and the same kashivas That's a dynamite. We very much strive strive that's can't say we get every kid but >> listen I hope that we all strive for that meaning I think we're all trying to push the envelope of growth as much as we can >> in a healthy way and it's it's this you know it's a delicate balance you know >> I just want to get back to one thing quick where you started off >> this concept of you know a lot of parents use it sometimes when they go on to go easy streets he's only eat six let him be a kid let's not forget his building blocks to build a Part of those building blocks is yes being pre first, second, third and then when you get to middle school is it really a time academic start becoming relevant. It's not just not relevant for their life skill. It's part of building those blocks. So if you say a kid should be a kid till ninth grade you are taking away two or three years of his building blocks of you and it's part of the building of a point. That's what it is and that works for all ages. >> I agree. I mean, I think being successful in learning is a major motivator for the next day. And if you just let the kid sleep or not push himself, you're not helping him learn his himself. You know, at the same time, if you come up with some standard that's just not based on, it's just like a random standard that makes you look good. So, that gets when that's when it gets dangerous, I think. So, >> I think what we're just to sum it up, what I'm saying basically is there's a culture And then with induct system we have to add a system mean system close this is how >> right that's the dome that's the dome is this is the system and well Smith thank you so much for joining us it was great talking to you and we really appreciate your your leadership >> thank you all the best take care >> so we're going to continue this topic with our next guest and maybe hear from the the girl perspective which as as fun as the last conversation whether with pre Smith was for hearing a unique perspective from a unique issue in Lakewood I think from the girls middle school high school perspective I think we hear a lot of pain from parents or struggles from parents our next guest is Mrs. Alisa Feder Mrs. Feder is the head in Pek. She speaks for audiences really all around to high school girls and to parents. Shirim, author of many books. You could actually access her Shirum and her talks on her website. Mrs. Alisa Federer.com and we're a little bit Mishbaha. My cousin married Mrs. Federer's son. So, Mrs. Federer, welcome to the learning curve. >> Thank you. So happy to be here. So we're going to read you the question that we just read. Rabbi Smith who was an Alan Lakewood. We'll read the parts. Let's I'll read the whole question again. And the question is, the school year just started and my kids are already stressed. My sixth grade son is now a middle school, more teachers, more work, and a wonderful Rebi who says that Gamora Khazar always comes first and is a must every night. My 10th grade daughter has nothing but tests and sheets to memorize. Memorizing nim, memorizing histori. Why are we putting so much pressure on our children? real life will come either way. Why can't they just enjoy the last few years of being a kid even while in school? There has to be another way. In parenthesis, I dare you to find one mother who thinks differently. So, we've been discussing this from a lakewood perspective, from yes boy perspective with Gimara. You obviously this is your comfort zone, Mrs. Feder. That's I guess to reframe the question in terms of pressure. Is pressure a big part academic pressure of the girl system seems to be why and how can we create a healthy balance? >> Okay. So, so listening to that question, you know, a few things jumped out at me. I would love to separate certain issues. In other words, the question that you asked is not exactly the question that that the questioner asks to begin with, which is fine. And obviously when I'm speaking I am there when you're talking about a system the system is huge. I like the way you said like the Lakewood angle as opposed you know maybe the say Clifton angle. And when I speak I'm going to try to be mindful that I'm not actually speaking about my specific school. I'm really talking from experience from the students and parents that I speak to. Is academic pressure a part of the picture? It absolutely is. I think with zero academic pressure you can't have a school if it's if there's absolutely nothing there. But again, there's talking about academic pressure and then they're speaking about the amounts of tests and homework that kids have. That's not necessarily the same thing. But in terms of the question and something specific kind of yelled out at me with this question, why are we putting so much pressure on these kids? You know, why can't they just enjoy the last few years of being a child? All of that stuff. There is a piece of that I agree with. Personally, I don't think that any student I don't think that any kid should be under extreme amounts of academic pressure. For starters, this is a horrible learning environment. Anybody will tell you you can't be under extreme amounts of pressure and really be learning. But I think that what's necessary in my mind is to go back to the beginning and try to figure out what school is for because it's not for creating insane pressure through unreachable academic standards. Obviously, it's not to force kids into memorizing useless information. Obviously, it's also not to be a holding pen whose job it is to make sure they enjoy themselves until they have to deal with the real stresses of adulthood. um that's equally untrue. So I mean personally speaking I after 25 years plus in education I think that a large part of what school is for is to ease and my view is high school so is to ease kids into and to prepare them for a life of happiness as individuals in Odashm and once that's your baseline goal then you could see if the pressure is helping them or harming them if it's too much if there's a balance. I think it's a pretty safe and standard. I don't think anyone would argue that the the goal of missifa or bes were discussing besakov education is to ease and help the girls move from you know being young adolescence into adults that are of the ashem. I think that's pretty I guess the question then is is memorizing ovajia and mika right how how is that because everyone has >> exactly so that that was the follow-up part of the question which actually surprised me and I have to confess a little bit like I I laughed out loud in my head hearing this you know that the examples of like 10th grade girls memorizing memory kazalukim from Na'vi what are they going to use this for that actually makes me laugh I thought the examples were for sure going to if we're giving examples of like useless excessive information. I thought we were going to talk about like obscure mathematical formulas, which let's face it, nobody uses these things, like weird historical trivia about dates in China or whatever, like hyperspecific rules of grammar. I actually think that learning Torah is pretty much what they should be spending their time on. I actually think that from Navian Mazal, these are the anchors that are going to keep them on the right path through the years outside of school. I mean I'm I I have to preface this. I I know I'm a teacher. I'm not an intellectual. I don't love learning for learning sake. I don't love deconstructing or amban or you know I skip the gamatria mafaram like these I I always did and I probably always will. But at the same time just having fluffy hashkuffic discussions they can feel nice but if they aren't really grounded they're going to last until the next you know pretty speech by a talented presenter who says the opposite. And the kids won't have tools to identify what is MS and what's just pretty packaging. And in our day and age where every single person has a platform to give their opinion on everything and anything, it's actually super important to have grounded knowledge of what is to MS and what's just the opinion of the latest Insta celebrity. So, so the pukim and the mam kazal that were quote unquote forcing them to memorize or grading them on that that actually doesn't bother me. ation helps is that I mean because they cram before the test they sing a song they cram before a test >> so you just actually said two different things cramming before a test does absolutely nothing that's scientifically proven that is in one ear out the other singing a song oh you will have that earworm for >> that's true that's you're right my wife actually still sings a snail benaza >> yes I know that one I know that one yes absolutely so those actually I used to teach nth gradea for many years in Bur high school and I sing the most annoying songs. Me, the girls learned them and they used to call me from college afterward and say, "You have no idea how much that helped us in Jewish history in college classes." So songs are but in general, your question really is not about songs. Your question is about wrote memorization. One of my role models in Kanuk is Mrs. Lata Press of Prospect Park and she actually says, and I wholeheartedly concur that wrote memorization is actually one of the most underutilized forms of education. meaning I know we're all into you know the latest and the most innovative and you have to capture their imagination and we have to switch topics and no frontal teaching etc etc etc and it's all true but just memorizing not cramming for a test that's just dumb that's pure spitback is going to be it's going to be gone in two days but having them repeat the same sentence let's say my high school teacher did I remember in 11th grade we had to repeat specific mam kazal every single solitary day write it at the end of every single that actually sticks with you they do So I think a lot of this is teacher dependent. I think it's on the teacher to teach in a way that empowers a student on their level to do the best they can with really relevant useful material. I think that's on the that's on the teacher. I think it's on a parent to make sure that their kids stay balanced and doesn't overdo things and is in a place by the way that's most suited to their level and learning style. I think you have kids that are so clearly a mismatch to their institution. meaning their parents will place them in an institution that is way above their level scholastically and then complain about too much homework and too much pressure and that's not fair to a kid. You know, teachers are by and large doing a as good a job as we can with learning differentiation, but sometimes there's just a very obvious mismatch. That's not such a fair thing to say because not everybody has options. So you might be in a community where you're forced to go to a certain school or you only got into one school. So, but when you do have have options or when you have options for class placements, everyone wants their kids in the, you know, in the olive class that might not be for your kid. So, you can't put them there and then complain about pressure. So, some is on the parent, some is on the teacher. I don't think academic is a pressure is a terrible thing in it of itself. Like everything else in life, it depends. Obviously, >> I want to explore the memorization thing for a minute because that was very interesting to me. So first of all, you know, I'm sure you're familiar, but are not all of our listeners would be with Bloom's taxonomy and this idea of levels of um cognition and like so it's, you know, it's become a pretty basic approach to education that higher level thinking and engaging is really the goal. And to be able to spit back information, my Karusi used to call me a Chinese tape recorder, like I could say it back. I have no clue what I'm saying, but I could say it back. Is not really education. And I wonder, and this is the question, I wonder how the girls perceive it. I don't, you know, I don't have a actually I don't have a girl in high school right now. I have girls who've been through high school, but I imagine if there's a lot of rope memorization without the cognition, I wonder if they relate to it positively and if they feel it's enhancing them. You're saying it anchors them, but I would think it would be more to distance them from the beauty of the text and of the words. Just to piggyback and to add to that like just to show the separation in boy's massifas this doesn't exist. No, no one's memorizing gumaras, right? It's not. It's about, as you said, it's about the level of learning and it's about understanding. And of course, you need you have to review, but it's about reviewing concepts as opposed to me. Memorization does not exist in boys high schools. And yet, it seems it's a tremendous piece of girls high schools. That's just that's just fascinating to me. >> Yeah. So there are there there's definitely what to talk about in terms of the difference between between boys and girls and their needs and what they need to know. I think that we're all in agreement that memorization is not education under nobody's definition. Memorization is not education. It's a tool and it could be a foundation for education. But that cannot be the entire education. We all know people at sometimes our children maybe who can me who can spit back this vast amount of material but when you ask them a single question on it they have no idea what they're saying sometimes they'll even memorize it like the wrong words running into each other so they literally have no idea what they're saying and that I think we can all agree is is worthless >> isn't that an epidemic in girls high schools >> I don't know that I would say that why would you think that >> because every single high school girl that I know cries that all their busy is memorizing and they just all they have to do is memorize. They're memorizing. It's all it is. It's not about breaking apart. >> So, this is actually fascinating to me because I work in a I work with a lot of different girls. >> I don't really know so many complaints about memorization per se. I think that there's a certain amount of memorization. I would put it more in the elementary schools when they're memorizing things that they don't know what they're memorizing like that they don't know the the meaning to or the answer to. The memorization that goes on in girls schools, they're not memorizing for the most part, let's say, words of sukim that you could easily look up or rashi that you could easily look up. The what I'm thinking in terms of memorization are mostly mam kazal certain foundational that that you know come out as a like I said as an anchor to certain hashkuffic ideas. So if you would teach this is ironic because my students if they heard this would laugh because I I actually don't give any memorization whatsoever. But now I'm thinking that maybe I should start. they'll love me for this. >> Yeah, your your mentor is uh Mrs. Press happy with you. >> But but there are like you can give a 45 minute meaningful and this is what I meant when I said it's on the teacher extremely relevant and it's on you as a teacher to make sure that they understand the relevance and the transformational ideas that you're giving over and then hook it to a kazal. Then when kazal are not just meaningless words, they're supposed to bring about ideas that are behind it. This goes into like a whole different other type of conversation just in in your describe in general where we've kind of we're moving away because we're so allergic to the boring old stayed like you know the the repetitious quality and people are always looking for like the new vo exciting inspirational but an argument could really be made for both. That's what this is reminding me of like it's you can't throw out the baby with the bathwater. So to throw out all going back to our original topic to throw out all academic pressure so that now we have this pressurefree environment to me that's just a collection of you know again nice thoughts that are not really anchored in anything in any I have to so there's no need for performance a fair criticism again this is very general the very stereotypical criticism that girls basakovs have an inordinate amount of homework and test it's three four hours a night is right is that is that I mean that's definitely the stigma and it's definitely the stereotype is that totally fake I don't think right and like why is that >> I don't think that's totally fake I have a much bigger issue with the fact that they are sitting in school and learning endless topic after subject after subject after subject in a train from 8:30 in the morning till 5:30 at night so when they get home and it's pitch black outside for most of the year then they have to pull out the couple of hours of homework. To me, that's the outrageous part. It's actually not the homework that kills me. As even as a >> teacher three, >> at the end of that three, they'll be great. >> Right. Right. But it's it's wrong. Is that >> I'm not sure. I think that part of it, to be completely honest, I think that part of it is is idea of keep them busy and out of trouble. Um I've heard that I've heard that from administrators before. Um literally keep them busy and out of trouble. like better. One one um administrator told me better they should be busy cuz I was complaining that there was a certain thing that was just literally busy work to keep the kids busy. I forgot what subject it was in. And she said better they should be doing busy work then should they should be in quick check. I mean yeah I guess so. But are those the only two options? Like I'm not sure those are the only two options. >> Is getting into seminary a pressure that plays a role? >> It's it right. It's not just the getting into seminary. It's the um it's the the need to state that my school has these rigorous standards and that therefore that means I'm better than your school. It there is something like >> per se, but it's the system. >> Exactly. So, so we go back to we go back to a system and that's a systemic pressure. Uh the seminar's standards are high, but I have to tell you again this could be a reflection of the school that I teach in which is very unusual in a lot of different ways. But I I hear again and again from the girls that are in seminary that call me and postseminary that call me is, "Oh yeah, seminary was like nothing compared to high school." Seminary was easy. You had like a handful of subjects. You're off every >> even the more academic ones. >> Even the more academic ones, you're off for like three half days. They only teach like in the mornings for, you know, twice a week or just at nights for twice a week. Like high school was serious. Seminary. >> So now seminary costs like double the amount of money. Good. >> I have a lot to say about seminary. >> Seminaries are setting for a different time. the cash. >> Do you think seminaries are setting the standard because is that >> No, I don't think so. I actually don't think so. I think that seminar is actually the system. >> I think that seminar is lar if the parents hate the three hours of homework and the kids hate the three hours of homework. It's it's it's it's like a band of quiet, you know, minahel's min whatever the minelises. >> Yeah, it must be the evil principles. It must be the evil minahelises. That's probably it. I'm actually going to push back. I don't think all parents hate it. I think that's a dirty secret. I don't think all parents hate it. I think there are parents who are who whose kids are not dying under pressure. They're just busy. And I think parents are okay with that. I've heard from many parents that they're not. It's not a horrible thing. I think it's become a bit of a myth, this like homework pressure monster. And I don't think it's true for for large amounts of the population. Again, I can't speak to what's going on in in Lakewood per se, let's say. I I simply can't speak on the high school scene there, but the high school scenes that I'm more familiar with, whether it's in Brooklyn or in the Jersey area and many different places in Jersey, outside of Lakewood, I'm not actually seeing this crush of horrible pressure outside of the girls who need a lot of extra help to be to be kept up with a certain academic standard of the majority of their classes because of, let's say, you know, learning trouble or being unsuited to the particular school that they're in. and then they need extra tutors or extra studying and things like that. I think that this is a little bit I think the elementary school homework problem is actually worse than the high school homework problem. I'm not denying that there's too much work in high school. I shouldn't say that. I'm not denying the girls have too little space for their own time and too much pressure. I'm not convinced that the pressure comes from too much homework. I think we also live in a reality where people take what they do very seriously. Girls are hard on themselves. Period. end the story. So it they're hard on themselves with the way they look. >> They're hard on themselves to to perform perfectly in their hobbies and outside interest. They're hard on themselves to be popular and friends and they're hard on themselves to do well in school. Part of it is self, >> right? And they care about every test as opposed to the 10th grader in Yeshiva that doesn't care about failing bikes because >> Exactly. >> But the girls have have a spelling test, a quiz, and it's a three-hour ordeal. >> Yes. girls have not discovered the dirty little secret of like it really doesn't matter. Like it really doesn't matter. >> Well, they just did because they're listening. >> Yeah. Except that >> but they still have to get into seminary. >> Well, I was about to say what they push back at me when I tell let's say my own daughters, could you chill out? This actually doesn't matter at all. She will push back and she's not wrong and she say yeah it matters. It matters to my GPA because that matters to seminary. >> Right? >> So she's not right. So she's not 100% wrong. And in that way when you ask the seminary driving it not directly but indirectly yes because when I tell a student please only focus on kamesh could you not worry about what so that's very nice of you to say but what's going to be when and she's not bro she's not >> right I wonder I'm more familiar with the boy scene so I'm just I'm not asking this question with any angle just curious do we are we reaching the girls largely would you say that your average basiago girl feels seen and connected and valued or do you feel like the system is just so, you know, energized and there's so much pressure on the system itself that it's hard to get to that? >> So, I need to I need to be very upfront. When I hear questions like this from people outside of the girls, my blood starts to to get a little hotter for a little bit because there is a huge preumption here that we're not speaking their language. We're not reaching the girls. They're not being seen or heard. they don't feel validated or understood. And I think that's I think that's garbage. I don't think that's true at all. I think that I again can't speak outside of the schools that are touch base and there will always be girls who fall through the cracks always and it's horrible and we have to do more to reach them and sometimes there are so many reasons outside of the school house that they're getting lost that there's simply not much we could do. But the Mahanos that I know are doing unbelievably awesome jobs reaching kids every single solitary day. And there are different types of makanos for different types of kids and different types of classes for different types of kids. I actually think that the young women that we're graduating are stunning works of internally developed people and we're very quick to you know judge the system and even judge the girl cuz like oh she's too into brand names and she's too into how she looks and it's simply not true. I think they could be into brand names and how they look, but there's a lot going on there that's deeply beautiful and moving. >> Before we close, could you, if you had, you know, you were given the the mantle for an hour of to make one small change for mankind in our girls in our high school girls that you think that would maybe create and to help, you know, the the this balance, the pressurized balance, what would it be? >> I just have one thing that's really really tough. How about if I say them really really fast? Then could it be considered one thing? Start later, end earlier, have gym every single solitary day and force the girls to move and teach less subjects for more time each. Have less teachers for more time. That that would be my wish for my new school. >> That's very succinct. >> Yeah. Yeah. I thought a lot about this. >> Yeah. >> All right. Wonderful. >> I'm going to speak to that bands of evil minahelises and see what I can do. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> All right. All right. Well, wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us and it's great that you're out there doing your thing. Keep it up. >> Thank you. We appreciate it. >> So, regard that was wonderful. And we actually heard two very distinct >> Yes. >> I mean, from all the way from the elite right of Lakewood, but really from a very hush of a Rabbi Smith to Mrs. Federer who passionately and articulately um describing a lot of what goes on in girls. You know, I think there's nuance and there's different, you know, everyone has their own and their own language and in Lakewood, you know, Tarz, they speak one way and in maybe in Mrs. Feder's world, they speak a different way. I do think there is a lot of commonality and this is what I strive for in my yeshiva and that is to do it all. That is our job as meim, anyone who's in education, our job is to do it all. to be able to create a culture where yes where the tap kid should feel in getting the entire perk bal and in writing a kabura and in being an and all of it and if there is a certain academic pressure that he could handle that that feeds his or hers growth that's amazing and we also at the exact same time have to create this like soft landing spot and right and like velvety carpet for the kids that need to get there their own way. Certain kids respond to cultural pressure and certain kids don't. Certain kids respond to the rebby that that you know takes them by the hand slowly. And I don't think even though Rabbi Smith spoke it in his Mrs. Feder and hers, >> I heard more similarity than differences. And maybe that's me be trying to be a little bit too PC because I do think that by and large Manal and Manalos today really as you heard from Mrs. better when you answer as that question. We strive our hardest to to tough alakasness, but the system still is a system of pressure >> in many areas. >> See, I get in a little trouble to be honest with all of our listeners here in Houston with this because I am so sensitive to the devel emotional development of the children. Like that's my orientation. I have background in counseling. I'm very into providing that, you know, safe environment. And people misinterpret that to mean that I'm not into pushing academics, which I am. And I think that academics is an important piece of a child's sense of self and success and growth. But I think the critical question is so so I just want to say I think it's easy to get lost in words and the words don't really what do they mean? Excellence, rigor, what do these words mean? Yeah, we all want that. Yeah, it's like they're just words, you know. So I think you know you sometimes I could be you know my words I don't necessarily talk that way enough because I just feel it's so important to remember the other aspect which I think we're doing a good job but we've been reculturating our schools to be aware of but I think if you really want to get down to it if I really want to drill it in and with Rabbi Smith he sort of this sort of helped when we started pushing him is if you have to sacrifice something right you can either sacrifice meaning in the end of the day we want it all but what if you that what if you have to sacrifice the emotional safety of a kid to get him to learn that extra you know Mishna or that extra shakara do you do it do you ever risk that emotional comfort safety and self-confidence for the academic and I think that's where you're forced to make that hard decision >> I think it's very fair and I think I think >> otherwise yeah we all want it all >> I want to speak about Smith but I think certain yeshivas would give you one answer and certain yeshivas would give you another answer >> right so I think that's the million question and the problem that the thing that bothers me and I will be very clear I think you error on the side of giving them an emotional safety especially in elementary school because for me that's the foundation upon which all buildings are going to be built and if you risk that foundation you're really shortsighted because we're in the long game you know and so that's my philosophical orientation what makes me nervous is that people either aren't sophisticated enough or honest enough to own the reality and the consequences of their decision And so, you know, if you just, you know, just talk, yeah, push, push, push, but you don't really own it and recognize the reality, that's when I feel it's like you're doing a disservice to, >> you know, and it just what I find, what I found, I went through a lot of different yeshivas, from a lot of different spectrums. I have a cultural background and you know, the kids that came from the more pressurized Mitsuyanim elementary schools and right, they weren't better. I'm talking about I'm being very obviously general. When they're 22, the guys that are really serious, Mr. Be are great. Nas, what do you mean? Well, you in high school, you didn't have English. So, I'm expecting you to know Na'vi Balpa, right? Nope. I'm expecting you to at least know the Misha. Nope. Like the if you go to the 21-year-old guy and Prager and Brisk and the whatever you want to go to the Mitsum, right? The guys at top their I don't think you'll be able to see a real tangible difference in their elementary school. Which one had more Shakatario Balpe and which one didn't? So then that's even more so because if you start using that as a weapon if it becomes like a negative right that's even more of a unnecessary risk >> right and when you when when you have a culture of pressure or a culture of this is what must be it's harder for kids to enjoy that you know it's harder for kids to gain meaning in something that they feel almost I know forced but no no becomes >> absolutely >> so this was >> very good excellent >> way to start rabbi way Yeah, we jumped right in. >> Season three. Here we go. >> Okay. Well, thank you for joining us on the Learning Curve podcast. You can find out more about this and other topics at mishbucka.com. And of course, we ask you besides sharing it with others who might enjoy it. We'd love to hear from you. And there's two ways to reach out to us. One's through the email which is called the learning [email protected]. 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