S2 Eps 7. Let's Talk General Studies (feat. R' Avraham Glustein, R' Dov Portwicz)

How do you handle apedic child? And this is in front of 2,000 plusim in America where he said without inquation he said there is no such thing asbah. When you are in yeshiva, you are acquiring a skill for life that you will always need and that is writing and being creative and being analytical and coming up with ideas and therefore chat GPT and AI is terrible. Welcome to the learning curve podcast brought to you by Mishbaha magazine. >> We are raising children in a changing and challenging world. So let's tackle the important issues facing from families today. >> I'm Rabbi Amnil Garfield Manal of Yeshiva's MS in Houston and I love talking about >> I'm Rabbi Ari Shafeld Manalikatana of Manhattan and director of camp. I also love talking and sometimes fishing. >> Join us as we answer your questions and discuss the topics that matter to parents the most. and welcome back to season two of the learning curve a podcast that deals with important issues in the kuk world matters that matter to us I'm shfeld joined as always by rever Garfield how are you wonderful it is great to be back and it's great to be able to talk to you again about between the time we finished recording and now I'm sure this happened to you too so often it was like oh that's a great learning curve topic or discussion or people would like say to me it's shul or something. Oh yeah. So it's great to be back together so we could do the learning curve the way it should be that's on air with all of our many listeners so we can really engage everybody instead of just the side conversations. >> Yes. And as happened to me a few times I'm sure to you when dealing with the parent I'll be like this is not going to be on >> and I'll say if it will I'll change your name to sprint. So if you hear a spritz today, you know who we're talking about. But no, we both >> our day job, if you will, call it a job. I think a job is a little bit >> more than a job. >> It's much more than a job. >> It's for for both of us to be Manal in Houston >> in New York. So we have the out of town flavor, the in town flavor. I don't know. I live in PAX. I'm not sure how in town that is called, but we've had life's experiences and experiences in yeshiva and we hope to share that in a meaningful way with our listeners. We ask everyone to send in questions that they have. What's the email again, Rabbi? >> Well, the email is the learning curve mishbah.com. >> The learning curve of mishbah.com. We thank Mishbaka for helping making this possible. And let's go. Let's get started. >> I'm gonna ask you a question to jump right in. So, here we go. My sixth grade son has a book report due. He sat down at the computer and 10 minutes later said he's done chat GBT. He was so proud of his cap. When I told him it's for sure against the Shiva policy, he said, first of all, no one ever said anything to us, so don't make up policies. Secondly, if it's cheating, how come Abba, you use it all the time to write emails for work? >> Okay, so first of all, I don't use chat GPT for work. I find chat GPT to be insulting to someone that I >> use it at all in work like not at all. >> H So this question wasn't written by by me or my wife. I love the challenge of writing and I I like to be creative myself but fine. So this is obviously a new Shila something that in terms of school policy I think schools are probably reacting to this and yeshivas are reacting to this as we go. 5 years ago there was no need for such a policy because no one knew what that was. My yeshiva had to create a new policy because we had a similar episode like this. So I I I'll actually tell you what happened in our yeshiva. It wasn't spinsa but something happened along these lines where it became clear that a boy used chachi pt and we had no rule in yeshiva against it. So we then changed the rule. So in terms of yeshiva having a policy that's yes shea takayas to be up to date and and if there's something that's important then make that a school policy. Now, in terms of the actual very legitimate question from a 10-year-old, and that is, hey, if it's dangerous and illegal and cheating, so then how can you use it or everyone else uses it? So, I got asked this question by all the boys in town in Manhattan when we made this policy. They all know about chat. >> What's the policy? You didn't say >> you're not allowed to use chat PT or any AI device when writing when doing work for school. >> Okay, >> it's not vague. It's pretty open-ended and pretty straight. And I told them the following. This is the mushell. tried to explain it in a way that a 10-year-old could understand it. And this is what I told them. I said, "Eighthigh graders take math tests and regions. Are they allowed to use calculators?" And the answer is yes. Not only are they allowed to, we encourage it because they're doing such complex um work. I don't want them to spend time doing multiplication. So, they're allowed to use calculators. a first grader or a second grader who uses a calculator on a test is cheating and gets a zero. What's the difference? And I pose this question to our fifth and sixth graders. And I explained to them that the first and second graders are learning how to do math. So if they use a calculator, they are ruining their ability to learn that skill. an eighth grader that has already learned that skill so is just using a calculator to help things go quicker if that's not what the focus of the test is. The focus of the test is graphs and algebra and fractions and all those things. So therefore, a calculator for him is not cheating because he has already conquered and acquired that skill. I said when you are in yeshiva you are acquiring a skill for life that you will always need and that is writing and being creative and being analytical and coming up with ideas and therefore chat GPT and AI is terrible because it will take away your ability to think for yourself and to be creative. Now later on in life do people misuse it? Of course. But later on in life when you're just sending an email or you just need to get things done and you use it as a small little crutch that's a totally separate conversation. But no, it's not a contradiction that your father uses email AI and chat GPT and in yeshiva if we catch you using chat GPT and report we fail you. And I I I said that to a group of boys in a few different grades and I didn't get any push back. Not saying that they're not coming up with different ways to try to use CHBT, but it it was something that was able to be understood and resonate with an elementary school kid. That's my my belief and and I I think it's I think it's sound. >> So, I'd like to ask you I'd like to push back a little. I'm not saying that I fundamentally disagree with it. I certainly understand where you're coming from and I have a lot to say about chatbt, but my only question for you is how do you make a rule that you really have no way to enforce? So the answer is first of all to the discerning eye you can see it or if a kid right there is ways to in a way find out second of all you're right you really can enforce it because I know you could put into chat GPT make me not get caught I know I think >> a creator or whatever >> right but I think the the idea is you can never stop kids from cheating right of course not >> so why make a rule why don't you just explain it without the rule part the rule part is what gets me when We make rules that we know we can't enforce, we're belittling the entire enterprise of rules >> because I think for 90% of kids, they will abide by a rule. And if it's not a rule, if it's just a musmoo, a third and fourth grader who are black and white thinkers will don't care about musen, but they this is not an enforceable rule in a real way. But I think for 90 to 95% of kids, if you make a rule and explain the rule and it's sound and it's reasonable, they won't break it. And for the five to 10 percent that will break it, they're breaking no matter what you tell them, they're the challenging kid that maybe we'll deal with later on in this episode. >> Can you think of another example of a rule you have that kids could break and you have no way to enforce it? Really? >> A rule that we have that kids can break? >> I I just don't think that's something we do. I think we try to avoid those. >> Yeah. But this also is when they're young enough, this is something that their parents can be involved in. This is not high school where the kids have their own computer perhaps. These are kids that their parents they're not getting onto chat GPT usually without their parents helping. It's there's usually I I think if it's a school policy then that's something that will be understood and therefore respected. I don't have offhand another rule that we do that's not fully enforceable. But I do think there are ways to rule when it comes to reading a novel that you're not allowed to use spark notes. I don't know what they use today. cliffnotes or whatever the the the condensed version and answer all the questions on the test and totally >> I wouldn't make that without I wouldn't make that as a rule. >> Why not? >> Right? Because of what you just said because to me that's not as fundamentally not using your own kisser I as Chacht Chat GPT is an is a total deviation >> from what we're trying to do in yeshiva. >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I hear that when you were giving the explanation you gave to your students which I think is excellent. Like you said, a second grader using a calculator really undermines the goal of learning multiplication, right? Totally like guts it. And so I, you know, I definitely hear that difference. Using cliffnotes from reading a novel doesn't gut you're reading, you're reading something condensed, but not as destructive. I do want to share one thought about chatb because I did put a lot of thought into this. As you recall a few years ago when it was just new new new I put out a little little notebook I guess a country a booklet of all the ways principles because you chat GBT and I gave it out to a bunch of principles and it really started the conversation and >> sort of a funny thing happened there was like a counter to it you know and there were some articles written that were against chat GBT and I was really curious about it so I actually called Termasur to help me understand their policy and they said they're still discussing it while I come to the Russia Shiva's meeting in the summer and represent the value of chat GBT and go up against the guy who's against Chat GBT so the gdolean could have a proper discussion. >> Okay. Wow. Okay. And what you want? >> Right. So no I'm not that dumb. Rabbi Shfeld I'm not going >> because a few reasons. Well why I'm not that dumb I don't know that we'll leave for our listeners. But why I didn't do it is first of all what I did actually do was I said okay I want to know who the guy is. is who I'm going up against and I want to call him and I want to understand his position because I was really having a hard time understanding the anti-hatbt position and you know before I would fully go in front of >> what does that mean I know that what does that mean anti-Chat GBT >> don't use chat they brought a co I'm sure you've saw seen it >> oh that one yes >> there was a whole col against chat GBT signed by Rabanim and everything there was an article in the esteem magazine that we're involved with Mishbaka there was actually two that I've seen but at this time it was only the And uh I'm sure he'd be happy for me to say his name. Rabbi Gotautle. Name Gotautle is the head of TAG and he was the one who wrote that article. >> And Tomasur actually sent out the article saying read this. So I called to Tomasur and I said help me understand it and they said you know that's how this whole thing started. >> So I called Rabbi Gotautle and I spoke to him for an hour >> and I really delve deep to understand where he was coming from and I think it would be beneficial for me to share that. Not that we're disagreeing, but you you have to understand where those who oppose it come from. And what he explained to me, which I think is totally valid, is four communities that are highly sheltered, which might not be, you know, your community or my community. I'm talking about families that might not even get from media in their house because they're, you know, scared of the from. >> They don't get from media. I'm not sure how they listen to this podcast, but okay, continue. Well, you have to maybe the adults are, but they don't let their kids, you know, opposed to from media. So, Chad GBT does open the ability to write anything really, even though it's it is highly filtered and often it'll say like we can't discuss that and I know they're very careful with that. They're self they're very much self-p policing because they don't want to get into a situation of being policed. So, a lot of stuff is blocked. But forget like highle schmutz and highle, you know, kira and stuff like that. But just exposure to the world, top 10 movies, give me a synopsis of sports, give me anything like that. They're very, >> but that's that's the same thing as having >> it's more it's more it's more than Google. And this is what he said. This is what he said. Parents know about Google. He felt we were successful in telling parents to block their kids Google. >> Uhhuh. But >> which is right. >> But chat and then they can make a choice, you know. But chatbt has this call-in feature apparently that you could from a flip phone you could even call and have a conversation with this bot and get access to all sorts of stuff. So that was one reason that he found it uh objectionable. He also said all the a lot of information looks accurate when in reality it may or may not be and kids don't know how to discern. I I have a relative who's one of the Rabbanim that gave that spoke on behalf of Rabbi Gautib gave a big a big mushmoose about that the dangers of AI and Chachi PT that you can create a relationship with a bot >> right that right >> that was part of it seemed a little bit of a stretch at that point but >> right >> but like for a community and you know what I agree with him for a community that is that um sheltered it's true and he's trying to tell people this is a this is an avenue of exposure that you have to understand. I don't think you know that's not for us necessarily. >> Yeah, that's not that the shila here wasn't the hashkuffic concern of Chad GBT as a whole. was using, you know, cheating kind of using, you know, is Chad GBT cheating, right? That was what we were dealing with. But you're right in terms of whether Chad GBT that goes into the much bigger discussion and that is which hopefully we'll get to in this season about technology and exposure and right. So that that >> I just thought that was an interesting little side. >> You didn't go to that meeting. Disappointed in your regard. >> I did not go I did not go. I didn't think I wanted to be that guy >> who is representing. >> You thrive being that guy. Not at a meeting like that. That's a little too much, you know. I mean, I'd have to be something. First of all, I'm not exceptionally passionate about this topic. I I don't want to be like the chat GBT guy, right? >> Um I have to say that I do use it >> um in a lot of creative ways and has a tremendous potential. >> Um and now they have educational stuff, all sorts of ways of making tests and worksheets and Q&A and and and uh multiple choice. I mean it just has a lot of capacity that if used correctly I think has great potential for us. >> Okay, that was a long first short question. So here's question two for you. >> My daughter works very hard in in school but is not a very strong student. >> The school announced that they're having a schoolwide spelling be. Each grade has a list to memorize and they will all compete on one day in front of the whole school. She is so worried about doing well and studying away, but I know this is not an area of strength for her. Should I encourage her to study? And is this something that our schools should be doing? What did my daughter just have recently? Geography B. Brockus B. Right. All all of the B's. Is that a healthy thing? What to this mother who has a a a student that this isn't her strength tell her. >> So, anyone who knows me, who's worked in my school is smiling because they know that this is something that is going to trigger me. So, get ready. >> Warning. But but I recognize that it's like my orientation, my background, my educational experience. So I'm not claiming to own this topic. However, I think that all these spelling bees, they celebrate a very specific and mostly inborn skill. It's not something you could really develop and you really either you have a great memory for these kind of abstract things such as what the braha is for I don't know whatever I don't even know what the good what is it >> buxer right >> yes >> or how to spell whatever word that uh >> mantasauri >> yeah I can't even come up with the words let alone spell it >> so I think that you're basically reinforcing something that is reinforced every day in school already which is some kids are naturally stronger than others in certain academic areas. So basically all you're doing is finding something that the kids who are already exceptional in mostly it's rare that a kid unless he's some kind of idiot so savant that he's going to only be good at spelling but not do great in school generally and this is my experience growing up the kids who win the spelling be and the brothers be are the kids who get 100 every day anyway. So do they really need that kind of public reinforcement at the expense of everyone else? It's like really they need that and all the other kids just feel like losers and especially those who are embarrassed and in this case it seems like it's somewhat public. So I don't see the educational value in it. Now that's as a principle. As a parent I think it's and I look forward to you possibly disagreeing and I'm very open to that. As a parent I think that if I was in a position where my kid was challenged like this I would have to make a decision if it's within their capacity. If not, I might plan a trip for that day and take them out of school so they don't have to deal with it because I do think it's a heavy burden on a kid. But I wouldn't push a kid to study when we know they're going to fail. I think that's like going to be a hard message for them to deal with and like unnecessary roughness. What do you think, Rabbi Schfeld? >> So, in terms of a school, everything of course starts with what age, right? You're not going to introduce competition in first grade, second grade. >> What grade of the question does it say? Doesn't say. doesn't say >> what grade. I was thinking it's like fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh. >> Yeah. So I I have a fourth grade daughter that has all these B's coming up. I have to disagree with you by the in terms of the long term. My wife still sings all and she knows all the Nvim because they memorize the Nvim. >> I have no problem with memorizing Nv. Just don't celebrate Ruvane and inexpensive shim. Everyone should sing Nvim all day. >> Oh, this is a way of reinforcing the Azashir competition and all there's a lot. You're telling me your wife wouldn't know it if they just sung it together and they didn't say, "You're better than Yenham?" >> Sing it together. Act it out. Do memory games with it. Play a game. Just don't get up on a stage and say, "Woohoo! Mrs. Shenfeld, you're so smart." She knows she's smart. You know why? Because she was smart yesterday and the day before. >> So I it happens to be my experience in in my Yeshiva is not so that the kids >> Oh, it's getting personal. >> No. Meaning the kids that win the bees and the discla are not necessarily the kids that are getting hundreds. There are kids that as you said have a certain innate take towards whether it's memorization or these type of competitions. So I it's not always that the olive plus kid is winning but it's definitely majority. >> This is an example where people could fact check that. I don't think that's actually accurate. There could be a kid here and there, but I in general the kids who win B's are the top 10% of your classes and you could fact fetch that. Take that to the bank. >> So we shouldn't have leagues. So we shouldn't have leagues because therefore you're asking a different question because you're feeling pressure on the spelling. So you're pivoting to leagues. >> But it language spelling and leagues. >> No, what I mean is >> I'll tell you the difference. >> Well, let me explain. >> Okay. I think that fundamentally having a competition in school and having winners and non-winners is okay for kids to see in any way whether it's a contest and uh whether it's in sports whether it's in academics I think we should not be afraid to like we have we give awards at at graduation in my school for ludices award and excellence and award in excellence we also have a character award and award so we celebrate different avenues but I think it's okay to celebrate success Yes, I don't think we should be afraid of having kids playing field. An even playing field. >> This is an >> You can't have a competition that everyone has to be in when some kids their legs are tied and some kids are not. >> So then you shouldn't play sports. >> Oh no, you haven't got sports. You didn't let me respond yet. >> You shouldn't have a choir in school. >> You didn't let me respond. I'm happy to respond. Let's respond to sports. First of all, those things generally not everyone has to do it. Meaning generally the kids who participate are the kids who want to and the kids who don't if you're a good school like yours you'll have multiple things and Ruby will be in the chess club and Shimon will be in the thing and this is a schoolwide spelling be that everyone has to sit there and watch and celebrate little heshy who does so well. So that's first of all. Second of all, my point is that spelling bees accentuate a skill that they're being celebrated in every day in class. And a sports is an opportunity or a choir is an opportunity to accentuate a skill that may or may not have anything to do with success in class. In fact, it could be argued, and I'm not willing to take the same statistical confidence that I have in the spelling be winners being in the top 10%. Which I'll take you on, Ari, so please fact check me on that. But I would argue that the choir singers and the basketball players are are more of a bell curve and they're not necessarily the top. So they have that value, too. So there's two differences between choir and basketball and the spelling beat. Difference number one is it's a different skill and that is not reinforced. Write it down. Number one, it's not reinforced every day in other ways in the school. And number two is you do not have to be on the basketball team. You do not have to be on the choir. But if your school offers different things, you could find something that works for you. >> Of course. >> Of course. My my main point is that I think it's okay for the kids that are stars in the classroom to be recognized. >> They are every day. And I think it's okay to try to incentivize and push kids who might not win but now like the kids might not win because first they have a little bit of anxiety or they get nervous on stage all the different reasons but at the end of the day I do trivia whenever we go on a big yes I yes trip I do trivia on the bus and when I ask what is the capital of Maine I now know it's Augusta not because I memorize as a kid >> I'm pro teaching that >> it's not teaching but it's not it doesn't come from just teaching there's an extra layer because when you have a B and you have a contest, there's an extra layer of competition >> because they get to do it in front of the weaker kid. Oh, so you're saying the stronger kids get to provide. >> No. >> So, no. So, I I don't believe in having a beat that no one can relate to. But if the kid makes it through four rounds, six rounds, I think it I think there's success in in in that. >> Find another way. I I could give you 10 other ways you could do it. >> I think it's a total I let's put it this way. I haven't seen negative consequences of kids who didn't do well in a B and didn't do well in a DS Clausius B and a geography B and suffered because of that. I think the the positive outweighs the the negative. So you don't have spelling bees. You have none of that in your >> No. No B's. >> No B's. >> And no awards at graduation either. >> Really? So I I by the way I'm sensitive and therefore we give a few awards. >> Oh. Oh, nice. So you give the most improved player award. Oh, that must be children feel most potential award, right? Potential award. >> What a wonderful principle. I'm sure I would have loved getting that award. >> I I I think it's okay. I I I think it's okay to celebrate kids that excel in in different areas. >> You should you should you give an award to every kid. We speak about every kid. >> I think kids recognize that and it's our Christ as a yeshiva to be able to celebrate all of our talim in different ways. >> I agree. So if you tell me you equally celebrate everyone at graduation and everyone gets an award of meaning, great. >> So I so we do so we do meaning I speak. Now we don't have 150 kids in our yeshiva. So every single kid at the graduation gets an award. >> That's wonderful. >> So then I have no problem. My point is >> but one of them gets award that is obviously quote unquote bigger than the rest cuz it's >> if if it's not a bad if it's not a Nebby award that's different. If every kid gets an award and one kid gets an academic award and one kid gets a midos award and one kid gets a hard work award and whatever, that's fine with me. >> Totally fine. But don't give me this one kid get some kind of gold goblet after spending eight years of being the top of his class. Every time a test is given out, he sits there and smiles. And I don't have a problem with these kids. Don't get me wrong. They're wonderful, too. They're wonderful kids. And they deserve to be muzzik. And we should individually strengthen them and give them challenges and we should give them personal spelling bees like I'm going to test you and I'm going to give you a pizza card. But there's no reason >> I think it's okay for us to show the value of academic excellence and to and be proud of that and present that and to celebrate it. We all grew up with kids in our class that were the Mitsuyu on them and some of them rashas today and some of them are big successful hedge fund whatever they're doing today. >> Another Shila we didn't get into that. Does seventh grade success in school measure anything to a 35year-old in any metric? I'm just saying I'm not sure that you know the the success in seventh grade academic. >> I think we celebrate excellence and I think that's okay and we have to find things that everyone is excellent in and we have to celebrate each kid and that's the of the maybe that's a little easier. >> I agree that I agreeing by definition doesn't do it. >> Wow, we really got into this. We're jumping. Obviously, we needed to have an episode because there's a lot >> we have to do this more often. We're like we're making up for lost time. >> So, now we're going to go on to the next topic. As hard as it is to leave those two first small questions that somehow got a little big. Uh we're going to go on to the third topic. I'm going to tell you the question, discuss a little >> spotlight question. >> Oh, yeah. The spotlight question and then I am going to bring in our great guest. So, here we go. My third grade son is struggling. He was recently suspended for being in class with his rebi. I want to help him understand that this is not an acceptable way to speak to a rebi, but I also do not want to just punish him because that often seems to backfire. How do I get the message across? This is a very serious issue, but at the same time maintain a good relationship and I'm going to add upon which I could influence him in a larger way. So I know who we're bringing on as a guest, right? Romero Simstein. I'll let you do the introduction piece, a very special person that I've gained a lot from recently because I and the reason why I invoke Ram Simka's name is because I have I would have answered this question much differently three years ago than I would >> when you were young when you were young and naive. when I was once gave and he said right so but I think is is a is like a a flashoint topic because growing up and the assumption in that is not to be tolerated it's to be dealt with in severe and extreme and consequential I'm not talking about hitting but I'm punishing and just zero tolerance but boy who's it means there's something wrong with his mid and there's and it has to be suspensions and apologies and you're clear with that with him it's like the little kid that walks into the street you have to teach the kid not to walk on the street so that's when you hit the little 2-year-old or you make sure that this is zero tolerance period >> right >> and I have learned through trial and error and through reading and and exploring this topic that let's just in the world of but really in all mid I have a friend of mine whose name is Rabbi Rael Garfield who once gave me present that was that's on my desk in Shiva and you'll finish this and that is that children are how does it go >> children are good they want to do good >> they all want to do good and if they don't do good there's a reason for that and it's as the educators >> identify and address >> right and that is I think if you view that way the child that is being is not being because he's nasty and he wants to be meanspirited and he's and he just doesn't like tyrami And a Rebi represents Tyrell like he's a he's a nine-year-old. If he's being there's usually a reason for it and it's archas to explore that reason and to find out which part of his personality is causing that and to delve deeper. To me the olive point the basic is to delve deeper. >> You're reminding me of one of the most iconic moments in Torah um convention history. >> Oh wow. >> Yes. It was a good 15 plus years ago came to the term convention. I imagine you weren't yet in even possible. >> No, I was not. Anyway, it was unbelievable. It was at the frier talk. So, it was a long time ago and it was amazing. It was Thursday night. We were all in there. Anyone who could come to the convention possibly was there. There was outside were protesting because he had taken a position I think on Metro Clarity at the time and there were state troopers around. It was like it was amazing. It was just amazing. And >> for you, like like for you, what could be more exciting? >> Yeah. I was Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I loved it. I loved it. So, there were two things that came from that. I'm going to share one at this time and maybe another time I'll share the other one because it's not relevant to this. But he said a lot of things. cuz you can probably get the recording. One of the questions was about how do you handle a futick child and this is in front of 2,000 plusim in America where he said without inquation he said there is no such thing as and the whole >> I don't you're asking aasha on the you'll have to bring it up with him but this is what he said okay and the whole place like there wasn't I guess but there was like a sort of guess and he said the point that you were making that children who are reacting to something they're not trying to be and you need to react to the something not to the he said this and he said that in the mind of in America I hope it's still in our minds it was a long time ago but it was a powerful moment that still is resonating so it definitely is something that >> yeah so I think we I want to explore this fur further because dealing with this struggling child closer to the kid, the kid who misbehaves. How do we try to get him back before it's too >> because we've given them the context of almost like what not to do, right? Don't attack him, kill him, accuse him, beat him, whatever. Okay, but that didn't help the kid. We just haven't heard him at this point, >> right? >> So, that's why we're excited to welcome Rabbi Stein. Let me introduce him a little bit and then we'll bring him on. So, Rabbi Stein is a prime Talmud of someone named Rabbi Schlommo Hoffman. Rabbi Hoffman and maybe we'll ask Ry Stein to tell us a little more about him, but Rabbi Hoffman was a sort of a psychologist. I don't know if he was formally trained, although he had exposure. >> He he definitely was well read in in these areas, but Rabbi Hoffman worked in the prison system and he honed the skill to be able to talk to people who really seemed to be dysfunctional, angry, disconnected, >> right? And through that through like his development of how to deal with those people he realized or he came to understand a much greater and that then he discussed with gdola at the time how he be very close to shak right very >> yeah and and I the stipler and I think others he really became an address for dealing with difficult children but not only difficult children understanding kids understanding people >> and so Rabbi Hoffman spent years teaching he had a small group and then eventually his some of them were written. I believe some of it was published in his lifetime but I'm not sure but he has since uh passed away he was nifer and Rabbi Stein who was one of his primary talidim has taken on the mantle to disseminate his work and use and he's been writing books I think there's two or three in English published by >> yeah I gave one out to all my rabbim >> oh wow yes the kamayam one right one that's just like one of them >> yeah right yeah an incredible lifechanging ideas >> okay So, Rabbi Stein also has gone around the country and he recently was in the Tormasur convention this past year where I met him. You might be picking up on a theme with me and Tormasur convention. I spent a lot of time with him. We really bonded and became close and so it was >> I was happy to reach out to him and ask him to join which he said he is happy to do. So, without further ado, it's a it's an honor really to have Rabbi Stein all the way from Mary to Br. Welcome Rabbi Stein to the Learning Curve podcast. Thank you very much for inviting me and I hope it's >> I will say it is and I want you to know you're the first guest of this season and it makes sense because you are the first guest of American. Really? You are like the guest of American. No, you came for the Tasar Convention as the speaker and you've just I believe you were just in America again to really spread the good word. So it makes sense that you're the first guest learning curve. I'll tell you very shortly. >> My parents got married. They did aliat. They had eight children. And then my father passed away when I was seven years old. So that year >> we came to America. We sat sh in America by my grandfather Rabbi P from Boruna. And I learned in the first wow >> in Brooklyn in Borak. >> So I came into class. I didn't know word in English but I was for one year in America the first so I needed to learn English so was that I learned English when I was 70 years old and I would say most of the years I didn't use the English but finally in the last few years because I got a lot of questions and I'm coming to speak so it came back and and really when I'm in America it comes much shar >> and I know much more words but I hope now it's >> okay you're digitally in America Okay. So hopefully it all will work for you. >> And let me just ask you this. We we talked a little about your background and but just help us understand how you got to Rabbi Hoffman and why you had such a good relationship or how the relationship with him developed that you're the first. >> So also very shortly but raman was of whoever didn't know about him didn't know about him. It means also his neighbors also his neighborhood. So the Israel knew about him. A lot of Hasha people, but most of the people in the world didn't know nothing about him. You sit with him next the next >> Can can you stop right there? Can you stop right there? I I want to put this out to you, Rabbi Stein, to you, Rabbi Shfeld, and all of our listeners. If you know about a secret person like this who's alive, can you let me know so I can go meet them? Why do I always find out afterwards? You know what I mean? You know the tua that no one knows about. >> I was living in Banana building next to him >> when I was growing up. Yeshiva 16 17 18 year olds I was looking for kesher with him from my own problems my own things that I hadn't learning or whatever and one I heard a lot of stories that about came to a lot of the Israel came to him so I decided one day I'm went in Shabas to the I asked somebody how does he look even though he lived a building next to me I didn't know how he looks so he pointed out to me this is the old He would say it's an old guy walking in the streets looking at birds. You wouldn't think this is and I asked can I come to learn by rabbi. So he said yes. And when I came to him for 12 years I didn't leave him every week. I got an hour. It was gold. I recorded with the best quality because I knew it's something special. But he gave a a feeling that he's not saying he's just learn. So what do you want from me? I'm I'm teaching you what says. So most of the people that did come into him didn't record. I was like one or two medium that we cord and I saved it and I started to not to print it to work in it came the handwriting whatever and was that it became a huge help to all over the world >> right >> wow what was he said oh my I learned from he used to say like this but we don't need them because we have it in but he used to say farm Rambam go and it's amazing he could have show you two words in the go that in science they used to write in it big books the image it was galdic so he used to show it says in the Torah so you we used to tell him rebi we don't have your glasses >> so he used to laugh >> but he said it's written it's there >> and were they all the same were they aligned those three or were they like different >> it's the same everybody speaks in is the style but less the same as >> wow that's amazing I haven't yet seen in your swarim explicit approach like that where you say these are the mccurus and the rama the interspersed you know what I mean but it's not like given over >> like a safer it's more written like >> man never wrote nothing and also when he spoke he never spoke like a charismatic person giving a speech he spoke like the in the Hebrew it's called he was a smoozer He was talking he didn't give a shar now when we sat by him he never said the shir I'll give you all the kamayim upon him straightly I'll give you all the incitis of kisha straightly >> so I have 30 350 shim that I recorded and I was mishuga I listened for each sh probably between 20 and 50 times and I started to bring everything to one said so that's a bit but gave me a lot of >> so but you never tried it out on him in his a lifetime, right? Did you ever say like, "I think this is what you're trying to do." >> In his life, I told him, "Rabbi, I'm I'm writing and I'm putting everything together." >> But he really didn't have the patience to go over it because he was like, >> "No, but you meaning but your condensing of his he that's the correct >> that's part of the thing that he said. I'm not kadesh my I got from my rabban from like read of the rash about bra about so even if the didn't go over it he's happy that Tommy did a good job that was >> right right >> right right so let's the sh that we're dealing with is let's be in a bigger topic and that is today right but a challenging talmet a challenging student to so Garfield quoted from Steman that he once that in America today um it's always something behind it. So if if you could give us I think a lot of the mechanim are very familiar with kamayim if I may my my yeshiva dinner this year my entire druss was about kamayim but if you can give a little bit you know of a a summary is this eyeopening from and how we can use it to deal with that kid that that to us isn't >> so I'll tell you the truth you're starting from the from the conflicts from the complicated behaving from the talit but let's start from the beginning of the kam and then we'll get to the let's give a minute what's a kamay the kamay is the side of the emotions every rabbi every parents that builds a good connection with the talid with his children in the house it gives the children the opportunity to grow up to become good to want to be good to do so the relationship that we built between ours from the rebi and the tal the parents and their children that gives all the motivation all the to control himself to change himself to become better. So when we focus and this of the so we'll get a very big successful in it's used to bring it a lot I'll just like for a minute let's explain the rashi it says something more like this the goes so explains that what's the meaning that it goes used to explain it that is what we call like a smile he's a lovely person the and the is not going to grow up he's not going to learn in your class so let's go a little bit deeply to explain the personality of a rebi is supposed to be a mazon and mas upon him is not only it's the the the emotions that the Rebi is happy to teach. He's happy that the the child is learning, he's growing up, he's controlling, becoming more, it's more and and children when they come in the class, they feel the emotions and they feel if the Rebi likes to teach, loves their growing, the Rebi doesn't have patience and the Rebi comes in a day that is the bank is behind his mind and he doesn't have patience or he's fighting with someone is in neighborhood and he can't they feel everything. So when the rebi used to say it very strict finishes it means that if your streak is neither of them there were the but there were never rabbies in class they didn't have patience to teach to be a personality >> you would say this about would say this about those >> not every god has the patience to teach was a lovely person to teach but not every god has a tough kid. So when you're a personality of a mazim, the children that come into your class, they're going to grow up. They'll be but if you don't have that emotions, you don't have that personality. Don't become a rabbi and it's not going to work. That's the kamayim. The kamay is an emotion relationship between >> kamayim is a phrase we're just for our listeners. Kamayim is like a word that represents upon him. It's a word that represents this this idea that the way to reach tid is by believing in them and caring for them. >> So there's a lap insight to explain. >> No, not 100%. >> That's a little bit I'm more direct than Rabbi Stein. He's >> No, you're opening it. That's what I spoke to now is the first level, right? >> What you said now about believe that's already the understand what it means that I love you. It says in Rashi if I love you, you love me. If I hate you, you hate me. That's kamayanim. What does it mean that the rebi loves the child? What does it mean that a person loves the person? So that's deeply the of the rebi of the parents that I'm caring for you. And now when you have complicated things and you're behaving in your in your whatever I'm still there for caring for you. It doesn't go that a parent says to child listen if you bring 70 in the test so you're not going to get food this week. No, I'm your parents and I'm want you to learn good and if there's problems I'll help you to lift to to learn how to become a ready to test learn better whatever we'll do we'll do for you. So that's the of the >> Rabbi Stein is it fair to say it this way I think this is something that will really clarify it for people where does kamayim take place by the rebi or by the child? Meaning it's not about how the child interprets it. That's not the kiddesh. The fish is that kamayim is that the reby's mindset is what dictates say like this first of all >> no no this question that's my understanding it's in the reby's headb we see that it's also from the rebi also from the tali that there's a lot about your question but often used to speak aloud the rebi about the rebi why because we're adults and we can control ourselves so when we get angry at a that is so we're losing him because that they feel that we ate them. They feel that we are angry with them. That there are emotions, the bad emotion goes from our hearts to the heart. So they feel that we don't have patience for them. We want them out of school. Whatever. Today the language is very bad and I'll kick you out. A child is not supposed to be I'll kick you out. I'll help you to speak straightly like you want to be. You want to be you want to speak like adults. I'll help you to get there. But I mean I didn't tell you I'll kick you out. What? You're a rotten tomato that we're throwing out of the class. The language is never but if the rebi controls himself and he says to himself yeah I love him the second he came to my class till the end of the year he's my child and I'll care for him and I'll help him to grow up also with his I'll help him so the talmid feels the emotions and he grows up and he starts to change his behaving I just want to tell you a small story last week I said a shir somewhere in somebody said to me last year you spoke about the kamay I need to tell you a story there was the was gear yes he wanted to kick out the buffer the behaving was very bad whatever I don't want to give you all the details and I felt that if he's kicking out the bak this bak out of yeshiva he's out of the der and I didn't know what to tell the mas because the mas was all red and angry it was a very complicated situation so I kept the mas I said one word tell me if the what was your son you would also kick him out and the masg put his hands back and he says you're right and he changed all anaga when you your mindset like you said the we changed the kamanim so it's amazing can I share a story an amazing amazing story that happened I don't know maybe this year or last year but remind you when I heard the story I said oh that's kamayahim rabbar started an email group of manalim and I'm going to change obviously some of the details to keep everyone comfortable but so there was a rebby in the tri-state area a manal in the tri-state area who emailed us the following issue he said that he was more of a kared school, more of a kared yeshiva and a boy moved from out of town from a little bit of a broken family and he moved in the middle of the school year and the manal decided to take him in the middle of the school year and he gets a phone call that class that the boy is coming into it was an eighth grade class. that phone call that that class that the boys coming into, they didn't want this kid in he was going to ruin the whatever it was in the class and they're going to beat him up tomorrow. They're going to beat him up. So he emailed what should he do and it was a tum back and forth and what he did and I was so npbull and so impressed I called him. I said, "Rabbi so and so, you have to tell me the whole story." The next morning after breakfast, he went over to the leader of the eighth grade and he said, "Come into my office." He came to his office and he said, "Yeah, uncle, we have a new boy in your yeshiva, right?" He said, "Yes." He said, "This class is had three parallel eighth grades." He said, "Why did I put him in your class? There's three other eighth grades. There's two other eighth grades." He said, "No." Why? Because your class are leaders. And your class has you in it. And you're a leader of the yeshiva. You lead the class. You lead everyone. And I know that I can trust you to make sure that nothing happens to this boy. I'm putting you in charge of his well-being. And he said this boy Yianca looked at him and he's like he was eyes like pop. Really? You trust me? >> I'm on it. I got it. And he said there was nothing happened to this kid >> because he took a boy that he could have thrown out and maybe even like as we said should have thrown out threatened to beat up a kid and he looked at him and said also you're a leader. >> I'm going to believe in you. Right. Amazing. I heard the story. >> That's part of the kamay like the believe in the to give them the power to become the leaders like you say. I just want to tell you something used to say that it works also without words. If I feel that I believe in this yo whatever it didn't work he didn't feel it but the words also out for sure >> for sure I wonder about the hagada where we have the four bunim I'm sure you've been asked this but one of the buns is a Russia right and the approach seems to be inconsistent with kamayim the way we handle a Russia is by hikah a shaina right we hit him in the teeth whatever that means but it doesn't seem to be like a kamayim approach We're asking a good question, but let's go back to Various question about the and then I'll ask you about the Russia the the kamim people love the kamim. They're crazy about the kamim. It's really I'm I'm teaching it all over America. I come every month every community the whatever but kam doesn't mean only love like we today the al the world that they just understand him give him candies and whatever kam is something in the emotions that I'm curing for you now part of is build is their is behaving is learning whatever so when is we'll call him and we'll give him a punishment why because we wanted to grow up when he's going to be a husband to his wife. He's not in a talk like this to his neighbors. He's not going to talk. So, we are helping you, the kamay inside our heart. We're helping you to grow up a really good human being in the rule. So, kamay doesn't mean not to give punishment. Kamay means that I'm caring for you and then the punishment works. So, when we have we'll teach you, we'll do what used to teach us there whatever there is there's punishments. there's the token whatever there's all kind of ways of punishment but I just say when I speak to when the punishment comes from it works he's going to come and say thank you because he feels that you're caring for him when punishment doesn't work when he feels that you're angry sometimes the rasha could tell the buff you're ruining my name of yeshiva get kicked out from here so that's not a kamay sentence it's not a kamay feeling because you're not caring for me you're caring for your yeshiva now they're not deeply explaining why cure for yeshiva is also for caring for him. But I'm saying when we give punishments, the feeling supposed to be I'm caring for you and that's why I'm there to give you punishments because when you are young, you don't know how to black yourself and you go after bad friends. You do bad things and did that help you to be and it's for your good. You want to be successful in life to be a good husband, a good parents or whatever in business and whatever. So that's the idea of the kam. So when we're speaking about Russia, the same thing. Kam doesn't say, "No, let's be nice. Yeah, you're a good person." Yeah. You decide to kill today someone. Okay, we understand you. Something bothered you. You didn't eat breakfast. Your wife got you angry. That's no we want to bring you to normal life. You want to be a sadic. So if we'll come and with the MS, we'll put him in a good mirror. You are supposed to be a sadic. today in your situation is a bad situation. If it comes from a kamim, it's going to work. >> Can I share a story and I want you to tell me whether I did the right thing or not? Cuz it happened in camp and >> wait you have a camp. It's been 40 minutes. We didn't hear about the camp. >> I'm not the rebi of the kamayim. We're all kamayim guys. Everybody one second. Everybody that comes into is a kami. So I could tell you my opinion but your opinion is also okay. >> Good. So here's a misa a counselor sent a boy to me at one o'clock in the morning because he was keeping the whole bunk up. He was being a dick in the bunk. Go I'm the director of the camp. I'm the head coun goal. He comes to my bungalow. This is a Friday night and going to the to my bungalow 1:00 in the morning is nishkin. Right. So I was pretty tough with him and this is unex you know unacceptable in camp and there's a way to and then I said to him yank you hungry it's 1 in the morning. He said yes. And I gave him a cinnamon bun. My wife makes cinnamon buns. I gave him a cinnamon bun. He went back to the bunk. The counselor came to me the next morning almost crying. He said, "Rabbel, you just destroyed my whole bunk. Here's a kid that was misbehaving." So, I got him in trouble. I kicked him out. I sent him to counselor. He comes back in with a cinnamon danish. What kind of lesson is that to my bunk? He I This kid was a bent tire counselor. Good guy. He was so upset that I ruined his bunk. And in me, this is before I knew it was called >> kamimar. It happens sometimes in the house. The husband, the father gives a sentiment and the mother says you're ruling. But I want to tell you a few things about it. The first thing is there's a rash. I'm not going to mention his name, but he's very strict with punishments. Even the best bak yeshiva when he comes late kicks him out for the day. >> Now he calls the parents in the first day, in the first months, whatever, and he tells them like this. Min is very strict. But I want to tell you something. The second I kick out the bucksha, I want you parents to get him in into the house and buy him a pizza, give him a snack, do to him schnitle. So we are working together theasha and the parents. Now your story, what's the problem? Because you're doing a kamaya for sure. You're putting him in this place. You're you're strict of him. You're not supposed 1:00 to bother everybody. It's not whatever. But you're giving him a sentiment to give him the motivation whatever you felt in that minute. But the problem that the cancer is not in the same mode of you and we need to work together. So if the rashiva call the parents and they work together it works in kam sometimes you work in a system and the other staff the other teacher the other the parents whatever. >> Yes doesn't. So that's a problem because we could do things but if the effect is going to be that the mother is going to be angry or the other staff going to be angry it's problem because we need to work together and a team that everybody's caring for is good. Now if the the council doesn't think like you so we need to set up the things together that he's going to stand your ways that you're working and if it's go it's going to go if not you need to be mia your kamay to the counselor because we need to be everybody together in the same team. Fair. Good. >> So, so we started out with the Shiloh Rab. Maybe we want to reread the Shila Torah Bstein. So, now that we're in it, we can present to you what a parent sent us, their struggle with their child. So, now let's go back try to get to the to to the issue. >> My third grade son is struggling. He was recently suspended for being in class to the Rebi. I want him to understand that this not acceptable way to speak to his rebi but I also don't want to just punish him because that often seems to backfire. How do I get the message across that this is a very serious issue but at the same time maintain a good relationship. >> So there there's a lot more to talk about it. I I'll tell you a few things. First of all used to say from you know it's a funny story was thinking that maf went with his friend I don't know how you say it in English that place was a big movie there's 400 people sitting together the go and thought that went there the didn't go but he said to us when we're Arab bunny were upset about our behavior in your aboutbah whatever they never said to us like a sentence you're talking bad you're talking they used to say like this in our yeshiva we don't speak like this it's a different sentence what's the idea of this sentence you're not attacking the buffer you're teaching him how to become better >> right >> it's I would say it in one word it's covered we could get to the goal of bringing him to speak but they're not but when we'll come to him and we'll say to him listen y uncle you're speaking and no one in school speaks like this what's his feeling that moment that you're against him rebi is aiding me rebi is against me I even didn't speak if if rebi would know if what's by me that was even not whatever they think in their imagination whatever we need to find a way how to bring him to understand our things that we need to teach them. We want to teach them but not attacking him. Like Biano, no one in school talks like this. So he says, "Yes, right. There's a lot of children say I want to tell you something. First of all, in our school, whoever talks like this gets a punishment and I'm going to punish you, but I want you to behave good and start talking good. I want to ask you a question. Yo, when you would be 35, you would be a a rebiha." And the bakar would speak like you say the same words he said how would you feel that the talid will speak to you like this and then what he does he takes off his eyes down and he says you're right so we need to find the direction we are we are not going to be like a lovely yeah you let us speak we understand why you speaking no we understand why he's speaking it's right his parents are getting divorced or something is getting very complicated in his emotions we understand you but Still, even if your parents are getting divorced and something is bothering you and we understand you why you're over here in school, no one would speak like this and you're not going to go tomorrow to the trip because you can't control yourself and we want you to control yourself. Can I tell you a and you're telling me whether this is fair? I heard this once from a a psychologist. The difference between guilt and shame and making a boy feel or girl feel guilty is very healthy, but making a boy or girl feel shamed is very dangerous. And the was guilty. To feel guilt means I made a mistake. To feel shame is I am a mistake. >> I'll tell you I I don't know the English so good. What's guilt and what shame? But I'll tell you didn't give permission also not to give a child a feeling of guilt. That's very bad because really >> so it's shame. He when he says guilt I think of means shame. There's a book of secrets of the soul about the dealing with >> so there's a lot of chapters over there about this feeling >> we even if the child comes to his mother Shabas 30 minutes before Shab and spills all the soup on the floor we shouldn't give him not guilt and not you didn't control yourself you did a bad thing will help you to control yourself never to to step on him to give him a bad feeling because the mice if it's one time it's okay but if it's all all the time like there are childs they have a bad feeling about theirel they feel born gum for me I'm I'm very my behaving is very bad why what do you do so what do you do but their feelings are very bad we need to bring them up was to cover the like with some mouth like the story you said before you're a leader to bring them the the the emotions the good emotions we shouldn't give them not guilt and not shame but maybe >> I I don't want to be negative about any anyone or any mantim but there's no I definitely think that guilt is a tool that's used in many of our guilt >> maybe explain me what's guilt >> guilt >> I looked up the definition so I'll tell you ba shame is busha a feeling of humiliation or disgrace how people see you it's about the self being dishonored guilt the Hebrew word is ashama a feeling of responsibility or remorse verse. >> So, we could talk about a lot. Both of them are not they're not good tools for >> Rabbi Shfeld. Aren't those common in our certainly every day? >> So that's where we're coming to teach the and we will get to the goal will explain the believe that the understanding will help them that it comes with the different classes. >> Isn't that isn't that one of the isn't true in this is isn't feeling guilty and feeling one of the that a person needs in order to be >> there's a lot to talk about. Right. This is not what they talk. It's not regular. But even if you're right, it's not for our used to say that the are very sensitive to love and for good emotion. Not only also husbands and also wives. So we need a word for the good emotion. Now it's bad emotions. If I may throw out just because this is a a topic of experience for me, we'll leave it at that. I think an area where a lot of guilt and shame is used is coming on time to chakras because a lot of teenagers and young adults struggle with that and adults but in yeshiva you struggle with it and kids miss and kids come late and the tools of intervention that are often used can a guilt a smoo about what kind of yid are you and I think that is so destructive to the way kids think of themselves. Yeah, but that's what I was saying for for for girls about you could tell problem with your mom is you could tell I understand you everybody's in styles the problem with sne but I hope you'll have the opportunity to become a whatever it's a different language and it makes all the motivations >> I want to tell you a story from >> his wife was a like very everything needs to be according to the >> so child was very mu how we say very active energy when he was in school and he made problems and the teacher kicked him out in class so he came home >> soman wife started to scream how you behaving what's going to be with you so man next to his wife says to his wife Rafi my son come over here take my to you say to dad I want to show you when I was a child report yeah when I was a child I want to show you my my tune in behaving I got four that was the paste behaving. So you could be like, "Daddy, today you're behaving bad. It's okay. Take your time." You understand? >> It's the same story with the cinnamon cake. >> Wow. >> But the staff in in the school will be angry that >> Yeah. >> has to know. >> I mean, he told us if the child is throwing stones in Jabas Muka, tell this child, I understand you. When I was young, I also did things. Okay. So, I think the time was passing. So, kamay like fast. the the challenge is getting everyone as you said on board because as a Rebi you're aimb but if the manal has a is a certain toughness strictness or if the parents are are are different then as a rebi you feel like all of a sudden you everyone looks at you and said yeah you're the loveydovey hippie guy that that doesn't know how to be me there's so many people involved in a child's life that really have to row the boat in the same direction it's just very challenging I'm not >> are there Rabbi Stein that have come out besides Ra Hoffman. >> Yeah. Yeah. In a in a way that have said this Dar is different. We should not use guilt. I'm waiting for someone to say that explicitly. >> Oh, I'll find it. You're giving me homework. >> Was only love today is amazing. Amazing. >> Yeah. >> I wonder. >> Yeah. >> I found that golan. Well, I know American gdolum. I I don't have as much experience with her, but one-on-one it's a mica and they're very understanding and soft but when it comes to the public speeches and really like setting policy I don't see an embracing of a change as much a little bit but not as >> I just want I want to tell you in one sentence about guilt shame and and and toughness toughness is okay when it's from guilt and shame is not okay but so the work done in Israel they were very strict very strong the things that we You never give attention in class. They went like don't move your chair sit down all the time. Okay. But if there is kamayahim it works because the ch the child feel that he wants my good. I had a story a child that his parent was divorced. I I knew him from when he was 10 years old. I I was helping him all days that he grew up in Shiva. He calls me the first day. My rebi is a we say in English. >> No that's okay. >> Is uh not stubborn. No, like very meanie. Why? >> Why? We have we have two hours of of a session of a teaching and he doesn't let us to get out of the bathroom and we're pointing hands and we're mom is suffering. We need to go to the bathroom and he's mean. He doesn't let us. And I was standing over there in my yard. I also felt that the reb is mean. Okay. After a month or two months, he calls me back. She tell me this is the best rabbi in in my life. No one needs bathroom. We we get prepared before it's okay. He taught us that we could grow up. We we could control. So we we never felt that we could get to this goal. So mean doesn't mean opposite of kamine. But guilt and shame means the opposite of kam. We're not allowed to do it. It's guilt. So if you find a story 200 years said I want someone today. I don't want 200 years. You know why? Because everyone dismisses that when I if I say these things over you said be strong, be strict, but he never said he make them guilt and make make them ashamed. So find me a guzzle from God years before that said that make them guilt, give them a bad feeling. And I want to see such a place. Find me one guzzle. It's not terroristic. >> Thank you, Rabbi Stein. We appreciate what you did for us and all of our listeners and also the continual work you do of coming and teaching and writing all the great work. So that was absolutely wonderful really a special and I think it's a topic that and and aug that resonates with a lot of parents today as we're trying to reach kids that are sometimes more difficult to reach than others and I love the fact that did not just say no loveyd no we're not here to just throw away we're here to do the opposite we're here to try to help that kid through I love this answer about the Russia This was an a very >> first of all as a rebby I'm very kamay dick as I'm very into this I always was but I didn't let kids go to the bathroom when I was a rebby during yeah same thing I said go before I it's because I didn't want them to miss and I know bathroom means break I said if you need a break you can ask for a break just call it a break you know what I mean >> yeah there there was a speaker at the yeshiva dinner this year at our yeshiva speaker and he said he thought this was our mantra of yeshiva was very nice but he said Right. >> He said it's a it's together always you have to always do both. >> Right. Right. Constant balance. So my point is just to say like it's such an uphill battle sometimes in this like I think a lot of people listening to this podcast already know about it and they're supportive but those who aren't do they really hear that this is das I actually ask people listening and this will segue into our closing and our email address. Let us know argue with us. Come on the air. Tell us why is this not the mahalak? What is the msura for the other mahal? And how do we get this to become normative? Because it really needs to be. >> Right. >> Okay. Wonderful. Well, this is our a great first episode. It's so great to be back with you, Rabbi Shfeld, and I just want to give out our email address, which is the learning curve mishbucka.com. We always look forward to hearing from our listeners. Any comments you want to weigh in on the spelling be or what was the other issue we discussed? >> FGPT. LGBT or spelling feed. >> A loaded episode. This was great. >> Yeah, there's a lot there's a lot to work with here. All right, so feel free to let us know your thoughts >> and we look forward to continuing with the learning curve. >> Take care.