S2 Eps 12. Let's Talk Partnering with Schools (feat. Rabbi Moshe Bender)

Anxiety is so easily treated. It's more easily treated than the common cold. >> This is literally me every day that don't worry, you're going to do great. Nothing's going to happen. It's not dangerous. Don't worry, don't worry. >> What's the role of medication? Is that important? What percentage of kids respond to it? Welcome to the learning curve podcast brought to you by Mishbaha magazine. We are raising children in a changing and challenging world. >> So let's tackle the important issues facing from families today. >> I am Rabbi Garfield Manal of Yeshiva Terrace Emis in Houston and I love talking about >> I am Rabbi Ire Shfeld Manala Katana of Manhattan base tipper of Manhattan and director of camp. I also love talking and sometimes fishing. >> Join us as we answer your questions and discuss the topics that matter to parents the most. >> Welcome back to another episode of the learning curve as I am your co-host Ari Shfeld. Garfield is your co-host. That's the word co from Houston, Texas. And as the weather gets warmer and the spring season is here, this you speak differently. You sound I know I do. The weather gets warmer. Um there's just a certain can I say pep in our step. >> An energy. A pep in our step. I know in Houston it's it's warm the whole year. >> Maybe the word spring comes from that, right? A spring in your step. >> You had snow this year, didn't you? >> We did. It was very exciting. Very exciting. >> Yeah. I wonder school. >> Oh, well we had I have to remember. Yeah, we did actually. We did the day the morning of the snow where it was actually like you know lots of inches we did and then the next day we did I think just some partial stuff >> when it snows you have to like bring you nothing to nothing to shovel the snow with. >> Yeah. Like no one had any defenses. >> It's gone. We are deep into the second season of the learning curve. Our questions have been coming in fast and furious. Um, Barak Hashem, questions today were sent in always anonymously. Don't worry, we have your back. And away we go. >> A principal actually shared with me some great story from our podcast. I'll just share it. I had told her to call in and we could play it, but I don't think we got the recording, but basically a principal was dealing with a student who she was worried was going to be a bully of a younger grade. and she heard our podcast and the story that you shared from a manal around the country who used the technique of going to the like potential bully and empowering them of being mazic them to be leaders. So she went to the potential bully and said you know we need you to be the head student. She made up this new classification called head student. You're going to be the head student and I need you in the job of head student to set a tone in the classroom. And punk that it worked. She was telling me that thanks to your story, she did it and it transformed the class. >> I read the story that she sent us, Rabbi. She added a piece that I think was the coolest stickle and that is it was a day I think that the teacher was absent. So there was like a sub. So typical when you have a tough kid, you tell the kid to stay home. So they almost they were thinking of like keeping the kid home and instead she's like, "Listen, we need now that the teacher's absent, so we need like another assistant in the class." A brilliant >> a brilliant a brilliant move by probably a brilliant educator. >> I would only imagine. >> Yes. And here we go. All right. Who goes first today? I think I'm asking you. >> Yeah, it sure looks like that to me. >> Question for David Garfield. Dear TLC, my kid came home laughing hysterically. Ma, we played the best prank on the substitute. My daughter proceeds to tell me with glee what happened. I can only imagine. I could I I can't even relate to me. I I can't relate to everything. Anyways, my daughter proceeds to tell me with glee what happened. I wanted to tell her off and tell her how horrible it was what she did. But I also was so happy that she shared it with me. In general, I like this question. How do we balance having that open relationship and having our kids be eager to share at the same time having them hear from us when their actions are inappropriate? like this mother is afraid if she does what I think our reaction would be. Are you crazy? Then the next then she'll never share anything. >> How do you balance wanting your children to share without shutting them out but also educating them and teaching them and role modeling for them? >> Great question. Of course like everything it's it's uh not a very simple answer but in this specific case you know my approach I guess is two parts. One is I would say generally I think it's good that the child feel comfortable talking to you, but I guess it depends how serious the prank is. I'm assuming that it's a prank that's not horrific. I mean, you know, we we hope horrific. I would hope it was horrific. She would get in trouble in school unless no one knew, right? Then it's they have a serious, >> right? Let's stay away from the you know, we we we put a bomb, you know, I don't know, we start a fire, right? Okay. But I would think that in the moment um you know KF doesn't have to be done in one minute. So I you know my my gut is to say that in the moment um you shouldn't react too strong and let it let the child sort of like get it out and maybe ask a few clarifying questions but more out of curiosity than a judgment. and and depending on the emotion of the child, I would sort of leave it there and then come back to it maybe a week later, 3 days later, depending on when things have um calmed down a little and say, you know, by the way, I was wondering, you know, that prank, I thought about it, although it was a great I wonder if you thought about how the teacher would have felt or I wonder if you know, like that kind of thing and like bring it up later, but in the moment, um it might be it might be not worth it. Like what do you gain? Let's put it this way. What do you gain by reacting in the moment? Now, if God forbid, >> I want my child to know that. I want my child to know, >> right? Because then you're worried the next 3 to 5 days an opportunity might come up and they wouldn't know and then they're going to do it again. >> Yeah. They're going to go back to school the next day and go, "Oh my god, I'm right." I mean, >> maybe. Probably not. Probably statistically you have three to five days. >> Do you have data on that? Do you have like maybe your your one of your focus groups that you have? I haven't done data but I do have a few years of common sense which would dictate that you usually have a few days at least to you know get a message like that across especially if that's what it takes because the alternative is to react right away and then the message you give will not go at all it will just be on deaf ears. So your option is either to react right away and deaf ears but then you could sleep at night feeling you did something even though those of us who know know you didn't. And I guess since you're listening to this podcast now, you know that you didn't so the whole thing is ruined for you. So that's option A. Option B is to react mildly. I wouldn't say yeah like you know you don't have to reinforce the negativity but somewhat like oh interesting like that just calm and then later 3 to 5 days later or longer or less depending on you know when you could feel that there's emotional separation also for you by the way that you're not like worked up about it. um you know, bring it up and say, you know, I was thinking as if as if your child's not crazy for not realizing how ridiculous it was. You're not saying, "I can't believe you did that." You're saying, "I was thinking, how do you think, you know, whatever the thing, how do you think that worked?" Or, "How would you feel?" or some kind of reflective question. >> There's there's a story, if you remember it, then you'll you'll maybe fine-tune it for me, that Dr. Turski says that when he was a kid, he was playing chess. You remember the story? Rashashana, right? >> And his father didn't say anything. He just looked at him. Maybe he said it like with like disappointment. Chessashana. Chessashana. And then afterwards his father pulled him over and said, "Did you win?" Right. Yeah. >> So the I think the the perfect balance I think that we and and I'm I'm part of the Wii. So So I'm talking to myself. We are so afraid of losing our uh you know I don't know what with our children. Our children are complex they they can hear both. Don't be so afraid to laugh like we have this fear that if I laugh at my daughter's prank on my son's sticktick and yeshiva and I let him share his excitement with me then he's going to blow up the school right and and call on a prank to the to the police station. >> Do you have statistics on that? We can tons of why can't why can't we do both? >> I think a lot of it has to go with the relationship you had with your kid going into this environment you know if you you're talking about we're both talking in scenarios where you have the ability to have normal conversations with children with teenagers. >> Yeah. And I think that's something that is new. I think that in in the previous generations the idea of having complex layered conversations right >> with children >> was not really looked at. I I disciplined a kid in my yeshiva recently. I made him apologize to a teacher that he felt he should not have had to apologize for and I was pretty tough on him and he was very upset with me. >> Worst apology guy all the time. >> So the reason why the reason why I did it was because the teacher demanded it and I decided to support my teacher. So, and he didn't want to and it was basically a forced apology and he was very upset. And I called him into my office the next day and I and I said to him, I'm going to be even as manal I said this I'm going to be I'm going to bring you under the hood a little bit Yankee I'm going to be a little vulnerable with you and I said I didn't say I'm sorry but I explained to him why I did it I know you and I explained to him why it was not necessarily it was the right thing to do. as I think it was. I'm not sure. I understand that this that and it took away the entire sting because I wasn't there to to to impose power. I explained to him why I made the move I made. I saw he was upset. I understood it. I said, "You might be right. I might be wrong. I have to make these decisions. I think most of the time I hope I'm right." Like, and I wasn't I didn't think I lost him. I thought I gained him. >> I thought I gained in the relationship. And that I think that's a a a cone of a of a new >> I mean it's not using authoritarian power and and I think it's more of a time of the a sign of the times that the world doesn't react to that kind of stuff like it did back in the day you know like in general I think some people would say you're being soft or you're being uh whatever but the reality is certainly those of us who who live this know that you get much further today with the sweetness and with the and with an engagement and with a strength and a hard line. I mean gdollum have said this that we have to switch to sweet from from the sour. I wrote my rabbim before PUMM this year. A very a nice card for my rabbim. Maybe I slipped in a little bit, you know, a bill or two. >> Nice. >> And one of the rabbim wrote back to me, "Thank you for the card. Thank you for the gift. Thank you for the kind words. We're just like children. We need too." >> Right. Right. Yeah. >> So, I can relate to that. We had a thing last PM. I'm remembering now. We had some of the kids did a stick that was a little over the line. I'm all and uh we took it down and they were upset and I said, "Listen, you know, maybe it was wrong." I don't know. I >> The kids were upset. >> The kids were upset because they put all this energy into the stick and it was taken down before they could >> I know what could I know what the stick was so I can pass or no? >> Yeah. They they emptied a bunch of the rooms in a in a um wing and they put a pool in there with water and fish. Live. Well, somewhat live, some dead uh fish. and my my and and you know one of the administrator called what were we going to do the next day and if you knew the setup it would have been a lot of girls in a little space and water it wouldn't have ended well for the pool the fish or the school you know the learning so we went in there like 10:30 at night a bunch of >> any fuckma or what in it or just fish >> yeah pretty much well >> other it was a whole water other fish >> last year my boys put in my room a fish a a pool with fish and fishing rods. I mean, come on. >> Fish, right? >> Yeah, that that was >> that wouldn't disturb the learn. This was like it would have really messed up the learning like just to get >> without telling them without telling them. You you you >> right. We went in at night. Someone tipped us off. We went in at 10:30 at night. Totally got rid of every shemet >> without the boys knowing the girls. >> Came in the next day and it was gone and they were like they lost their mind. >> This was the boys or the girls? >> Girls. >> So that's why they were angry. you pulled the power trip on them because you didn't tell them. >> Right. Right. Well, we couldn't wait at night. But like bottom line is I said, "Listen, maybe we did was wrong. I'm okay with it." You know, I actually what I did was they said we spent money. I said, you know, I will credit the money you spent to your graduation trip on me. You know, like I'm not here to fight with you. You know, I it was a hard call. It was a little over the line with the water and what was going to happen with the pool. The pool had a hole in it. So, like we had to deal with that. And it was like like you know they they realized I think they realized but my point is >> yeah I think next year before a porn we're going to have a a podcast about adik. I'm as as as a as sticky as I am and as I'm not an adik person in the school building. I think it's just precuss old but um but I lose but but I but I sound like such a neb when I say that. >> But anyway so my point is just to say that by saying to them like you're saying that's really the point. by saying to them, um, you know, I might have been wrong and and it's sincere. I'm not sure. It was a hard call. Like, I felt conflicted about >> and and it took away the whole >> Yeah. It was like, "Guys, you might be right." Like, I'm not You're right. Like, it was a hard call. Like, I wasn't sure what was going to happen the next day >> and I took ownership. I said, "I'm the head of school and ultimately it's my responsibility." And I I wasn't sure. >> I did the exact same thing. I did the exact same thing. I think as parents like you're not going to lose the family. The table is not going to turn into you know a picnic on in in a park if you >> Yeah. All right. >> All right. Now I'll ask you a question. >> Okay. My 10th grade son seems to be floating in his current mifa. He's doing okay but not thriving or growing in any way in the way I had hoped. I understand that no yeshiva is perfect and finding the right fit often is about the right [ __ ] off between the school and the child. Should we consider looking for a numisifter next year to help him maximize his potential or is it better to avoid the risk if he's managing well enough? Wow, that's a hard one especially if you don't know the situation. >> Yeah. So you can't answer you can't attempt to answer the question about any baker without knowing everything and being that we know nothing. So I'm going to obviously just speak of generally I taught 10th grade for five years. It was the bikabi m of clifton where my son is now a 10th grader. This is not my sahara. I once heard from Russell that the two hardest grades to teach are seventh grade and 10th grade. Just um those are the grades of the biggest change in identity of a person. In seventh grade, there's a hormonal change and everyone's different, but seventh grade is the big year of change. And then ninth grade, you're a freshy again. You're a little rookie, so you're happy. You're a little kid. And 10th grade, you want to know why can't I stay out till 1? Why can't I drive? Why can't I drink? Why I'm an adult? Why? Why? Why? 11th grade is the year you start maturing. So 10th grade is a hard year. Fine. That being said, I think one of the biggest challenges that we have as parents, asim elementary school, I think it's even harder is we just try to fix everything in one day. If the kid is in seventh grade and he's not thriving, we call on a crisis team. And there are kids that will flower and explode in sixth and seventh grade and they become itsim. There are kids that eighth grade when the bikin start for high school they turn on a switch and they keep going. There are kids that 10th and then as we all know there are kids that it's first some of them go to some of them don't. Everyone has their own trajectory. The basic premise is I know there is your your big mantra it's on my desk here is that assuming that the child comes from a healthy home and that the child is by and large a healthy welladjusted child he's going to figure it out he's going to figure it out what it it means not everyone's going to become a uh maybe in Texas they will but not everyone is going to become a but just your Charles 10th grade and he's not thriving. My whenever a parent says it to me, I say back yet. It's not again I'm not answering what this parent should do. I'm not discussing. I have no idea what this kid is or what, who, where, when, and why. But you know the mush I once heard from my uncle, my uncle Abby Fishov, who deals with a whole different world of but it but the mush nevertheless spectacular. And that is if you pass by a a shack and there's no running water and the bathroom doesn't work and there's no heat and there's holes in the wall. The person says like that is the most dilapitated horrible disgusting place and then you look at it and you realize oh there's a sign and it says under construction and it just became this most glorious future in the future. This is going to be this gorgeous mansion. Our kids are under construction. We all are hopefully, but especially teenagers, they're under construction and we we have a kid that has a bad week, a bad two weeks, he misses a shak yeshiva or whatever it is and and we go into crisis mode. Rebellious today used to tell his talum the job of a rebi is just don't wound them. Don't wound them. Let them on their own. They'll figure it out. Again, I know I'm being incredibly simplistic, but but I How do you know when you need to? So, you're saying generally don't make a change. Generally, >> how do you know? Is is he going to she every day? Is he right? Is Listen, if your son is miserable, he'll tell you. You'll know. I know plenty of 10th graders that are thriving. I also know plenty of 10th graders that are, you know, still finding themselves. You'll know if your son is really really struggling and your son is in yeshiva. He's not doing great. Maybe it's the maybe listen every year is the new rebi and not everyone figures it out in ninth and tth grade. Not everyone wakes up in 11th. I I just I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just to me it's just take a deep breath and it's going to be okay. And and and and by the way, the longer you can avoid the child falling apart, the better chance it is that it'll be okay. as long as he doesn't have a catastrophic, you know, 6 weeks and I will we all we don't have to we know the details of of what catastrophic means. Um, and you'll see it then he'll figure it out. I'm I promise you kids figure it out. It might not be in 12th grade. He might struggle through high school. Maybe one of those kids as they say he wasn't on fire in high school. Okay. And then he goes to or he goes to a different ship in America. You know how many hundreds of kids do you know like that? And it all and it was nothing. They were they were just like you see your neighbor whose son is, you know, is learning all night and you see your neighbors and and your kid diamonds at the 9:30 on chabas. I'm not I'm not saying to ignore your son. >> I'm saying to to >> don't panic. >> Embrace the journey. And the worst thing you can do to your son is to is to let him know that he's frustrating you and that he's disappointing you and that you don't get him and that he's not as you know I I once had a a 10th grade parent say to me this type of boy is this type of boy and I said to the father does he know that you love him and the father's reaction ready for this was the following listen it's not easy his older brother's matian I shouldn't be laughing. Horrible. Imagine his older brother's a Matilian. It's not easy. Like, >> wow, >> dude. So, then he doesn't know that you love him. And his wife turns to him and she says, "Oh, come on. He knows that whenever you say you love him, you don't really mean it." Like, like straight. >> Wow. >> And he says to me, "What do you mean? I told him last week, Yankee, that if I was ever stuck in a island by myself, I would pick you in the family." So, I said, "You know what Yankee's thinking? He's thinking, "Ta, you're never going to get stuck on an island your whole life. So that's all you need me for?" You know, I'm not I'm not telling I'm not I'm not telling parents to just let your child do whatever he wants. I'm saying that it takes time and buckle up. Buckle buckle up. >> Very good. Okay, let's move on to the spotlight. >> No comments. I just finished six minutes straight of having you being quiet and that's it. You were ninth grade rebby for for years in Atlanta. You're a life coach. >> One very important thing, don't forget camp. Camp could have a huge impact on a child like this or they don't thrive during the day during the year, but when they go to camp, like maybe camp age for example, they could really thrive. How's that for a comment? Do you like that one? >> I got a phone call this week from someone that says to me, do you Garfield is open to any criticism? So he said he knows you. He knows you a little bit from back in the day. >> Okay. >> He said, "What's the criticism? Why does he have to be so snarky to you sometimes?" >> So I said, "Call him." So >> fair enough. Fair enough. All right. So now we're going to get to the spotlight question. A very, very relevant and important topic. And here is the question. I feel like I need an education or maybe an intervention. My children of healthy and productive but get anxious whenever a challenge arises. It could be a test or a sleepover or a friend that wasn't expected. Whatever I try doesn't work. So I ask you, what are the top two mistakes that parents make daily with anxious children? Can you give me some good strategies on how to deal with an anxious child at home? >> Wow. So this might be the question of or or the challenge maybe of our generation but definitely the last four years co did not um make anything lighter and I I do before we bring on our guest I think we have to split it up into two separate categories and that is intervention medication therapy right that is one area and of course there's there's there's room for that but I think for a majority of parents and rebay him and teachers. It's not, of course, it's not that. There are kids that just they get nervous. And if we don't realize and figure out how to deal with a kid that has just typical normal run-of-the-mill anxiety and nervousness, then we're just we have to learn their language. You know, I I had a a kid in Marisha a few weeks ago that the parents called me that, you know, he had a test and refused to come to school or he would if you he didn't want to get out of bed in the morning. not a kid that was a welladjusted kid and they just wanted to know what's what do I do with that? How do I because everything I say to him just gets them more anxious and more nervous. So I think I think this is something that we all can relate to in our own lives and our children's lives. And as opposed to me giving my novice, uneducated answer, I think that it's probably best that we bring in someone who literally spends most of her waking hours doing this. And I have to do a disclaimer. I think it might be the second time that we've had a relative of mine uh on. So we do a disclaimer and that is um it is our pleasure to welcome to the Learning Curve podcast Mrs. Shiffy Liberman. She happens to be my wife's sister. So, she's my sister-in-law, but besides that, she has other wonderful qualities. And that is that Mrs. Lieberman is a licensed marriage family therapist. And she has created a very popular virtual courses for parents, educators and therapists called anxiety made simple and social skills made simple that really in a humorous way in a clear way to try to literally answer this question and has received tremendous response and has become very popular. She also another fascinating maybe a deep dive for a different podcast but she's created a guide for parents and educators based on the work of the child development of Yale University called the close look at ages 1 to 14 the different ways and kids in which they behave and the ways to talk to them at different ages. Um these this all of these are available either on Amazon or you could download it on her website shiffyleberman.com. It is our pleasure to welcome Mrs. Shiffy Lieberman to the podcast. Welcome aboard. So this is literally your area. >> I'd like to take a step back if I will and tell us how you got into this field like mental health in general and specifically as it relates to anxiety. So I talk about this a lot but I don't want to spend too much time talking about this but about 20 years ago as I was entering the field of mental health and I could not figure out if I should go for social work mental health counseling all the different degrees I ended up finding after many tries finding a family therapy degree licensed marriage and family therapist in Satan Hall University and I ended up doing my internship actually at JFS Jewish family service in Clifton where now I'm on the board of directors so I I it's a it's an agency very close to my heart and to my home and I started working they placed me at Katana Pose 18 years ago and so I was >> oh wow >> a lot of my time I was spending during the day at yes I yes and I was taking on cases at Jewish family service at night and I was noticing the pattern when it came to anxiety which is a pattern that's very well known anxious parents anxious children and I realized how deeply anxiety really runs in families and how if we're only dealing with it in school we're not actually helping the problem and dealing with the parents you know at the agency it just gave me tremendous insight to how to help their children in the school setting. So it became just a passion of mine really to try to help anxiety from a family therap perspective. >> Both you saw the kids in the morning and then the parents at night. >> It's like visiting day. Yeah. >> And do you have a certain like orientation or like you went back to school or you studied a certain methodology? I don't know the anxiety so well, but I assume that there's different schools of thought on how to deal with that. >> It happens to be that my orientation in family therapy is really very much based on emotion focused therapy, which Sue Johnson's approach. Over the years, it's been combined with IFS, which I'm sure you've heard about. Um, anxiety the if you ask me like what I could scream from the rooftops, it's that anxiety is so easily treated. You know, one of my supervisors once said it's more easily treated than the common cold. There's so much information and so much research about it that it's really it's not even like many different modalities. It's it's very clear-cut really how to deal with it if we can catch it at a more mild or moderate state. So in terms of in terms of anxiety, it's tremendous amount of experience and obviously I've learned from my mentors and my supervisors and and we we've learned different we've learned different ways of dealing with it. But there's also so many patterns that just repeat itself that it becomes very clear once you see it all day every day. >> Would you say that the numbers of cases anxiety is going up and like I know people say that but I'm just I guess what your perspective is and if you attribute it to something >> it's a question that we get all the time. It's a similar question like are there more divorces nowadays than there were years ago? Obviously there are so many more marriages than there were years ago. So obvious you know so the percent did the percentage actually go up. anxiety is is is there more anxiety today or is there just more awareness today? Like is or just are we do we know the words? Do we understand what we're seeing? Definitely because of the internet anxiety has gone up that that for sure. I don't think like I honestly think about like the the children you know in the world during the Holocaust like I don't think that they were privy to what our children were privy you know with October 7th. I don't think they saw any of that. They couldn't have right. So like so anxiety def it's definitely we're definitely more anxious but we also in a way have so many treatment plans and so many treatment options that in a way it's less because we know how to deal with it better. So it's a question that that a lot of people speak about all the time and and and yes and no I guess. So, let let's deal with a very like a simple scenario in which a kid has a report due or a test, you know, a fourth to sixth grade boy or girl, and it's the night before and he's just so nervous or she's just so nervous that the teacher, I'm not ready. Teachers, I'm not going to do well. It wasn't going to make fun of me. Um, and I'm crying. I'm not going to school tomorrow. I can't do it. Right? Just which happens in every household in America. And so first of all, would you I mean maybe we should take a step back and in in translating anxiety is that anxiety >> first of all let's take a step back. What is anxiety? What is anxiety? And the reason why we're starting with this question is because your very question asks that most people really believe that anxiety is excessive worry is part of the worry family which it is. It has a lot it has a worry quality to it. But really what the anxiety really is coming from is an inability to handle any type of uncertainty, a need to want to control. It's persistent, redundant, repetitive thoughts of just not being able to like lean into the uncertainty of the matter. What if this? What if that? What if my teacher won't like it? What if what if I don't do well? What if I don't answer the question correctly? That that quality is so much more typical and so much more patterned than the just, you know, the worry. the worry in that in that situation. He's worried about the report, but that's not how we treat an anxiety. And that's not really what anxiety is. It's the pattern of just not being able to to handle any bit of uncertainty. That's that's that's what we need to focus on. >> So, you're saying it's not something that would express itself in isolation of a report. It's a lifestyle or a mindset. >> Yes. Except that someone can have anxiety in a specific situation. Aren't there people that are have just full-blown anxiety when it comes to tests or public speaking? Right? That's anxiety. Someone who's stage fright has anxiety, but it's just stage fright. Afraid of dogs. Let's say someone's afraid of dogs. >> That's my brother-in-law making fun of me right there. And that's a phobia. And that's different than anxiety. >> Starky. >> Phobia is different than anxiety. I talk about that all the time. You know, yes, that you can also have anxiety without having an anxiety disorder, which people don't understand. you know, people you could in order for it to qualify for an actual anxiety disorder, it needs to really really affect your life and it has to it has it has to disrupt your life, it has to be persistent and there for six months. And even if you're trying to treat it, it only gets worse and not gets better. You know, there in order to be diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, there have there has to be criteria. I'm saying we go according to the DSM and and you know whether whether or not you're a fan of the DSM or not but you it's not just because someone has anxiety about something do they have an anxiety disorder which of course is also um very misunderstood today people just don't understand that. >> Just to go back to my Garfield question will it show up everywhere if a person struggles with uncertainty? Often often it does often it's very patterned and redundant and then sometimes people have their anxiety about certain situations whether it's weather related or it's it's you know locking the doors at night or it's you know they have anxiety when it comes to fires what you know and that's where also anxiety has has different families to it also there can be an OCD quality just an obsessive compulsive thought it can be like let's say somebody called me um about a fourth grader also very very worried about going for for a sleepover and we got through it and we understood it and with with the techniques that you know I'm sure that we'll discuss in a few minutes we you know it was a successful sleepover and they felt great and I said to the mother this pattern is going to come back up before sleepaway camp before she gets married because if you understand the anxious brain then you understand that some people are just wired for those what it questions and once we understand the process of anxiety then we can apply it to every situation. So there are some people you know who are super anxious but they'll go skiing without a helmet and people are like it doesn't even make sense. Of course it makes sense because that's not what that's not their brain is not anxious about about that type of thing. So there are definitely patterns and every it's unique to every person but when we take a step back and we look at anxiety in general it's it's really if you understand the process of anxiety then everything else becomes content everything else. That's why parents make this mistake. want to clarify something. >> You had said before that anxiety could be treated if handled properly and and identified, but then it sounds like it's something that someone has for the rest of their life. So when you say treated, you don't mean like resolved that they don't have that issue. You I guess you mean there are techniques that enable an anxious person to live with the anxiety. Is that right? >> I believe that I think that anxiety can be managed >> but you never get rid of it. It's not like >> Yes and no. But the thought cra you know once you do once you ha once you have so much practice and the thought pattern comes and you're and and you're and the person starts telling themselves oh that's my what if brain going on or that's my anxiety and what do I need to tell I I need to be able to lean into the uncertainty I need to be able to give myself a little bit of space I need to be able to calm myself down you know then the process becomes quicker and yes it's whether it's managed or it's treated it depends on the severity of of the you know of of the person but a lot of people will say that it's definitely it's managed and and that's why, you know, when they come back five years later with a different question and they'll and they'll feel like it's such a setback and I thought this was like fifth grade behavior and now I'm in 10th grade and I'm still struggling and I'm so upset at myself and and you know we remind them that it that it's that that's okay, you know, that that's how their brain is wired >> or a correlation between anxiety and self-confidence because one could imagine that if I'm super self-confident then I won't have the one whatifs. I'll probably think I'll do well on the test. I'll probably, you know, not be afraid to sing in the choir or to have the sleepover because I'm pretty confident that the that the kids are not going to make fun of me in my pajamas. Is are they is there a relation? >> It's a great question. I can't say that I know the answer, you know, perfectly because it's a it's it is a very good question. From my experience, it's not like that. You see the most confident children who are so successful in every area have an anxiety creep up on them that would no one would even know like it's just and it and it's and it's and they they come home at night whe whether it's a social anxiety or it's a panic attack that just comes on you know without notice or it's an OCD thought and I don't think no I don't think that it has to do with with self-confidence. I do think that the self-confidence gives them fuel to be able to manage what they're dealing with and to be able to say like I'm a I I'm a normal healthy great person despite this because very often the anxiety and someone who's struggling with anxiety ends up ends up thinking that they're crazy like they really end up there like what's wrong with me like why like the whole class is going on a sleepover like why why am I like this they feel like a crazy person you know so when you have the self-confidence to balance that out it helps but I but you see the confident person struggling with anxiety. >> So what would you say is the profile of an anxious child like you know what would symptoms look like and how could a person tell if he has unhealthy amount of anxiety in their children. So, people love the answer to this question because I really always say when when parents call me and they're like so worried, you know, oh my gosh, maybe the parents have, you know, the child has anxiety. I always say, is your child smart? And they're you're like, yeah, they they kind of are smart. You know, I it's very highly associated with the smart. It's ve it >> is it? >> It really is. Oh, for sure. It's it's it's because when you tell a child of low intelligence, let's just say, you know, that CO's coming or what's going on? They're like, okay, whatever. They're flip it. If you is someone who's extremely bright and can really think things through, they are panicked and they are rightfully panicked like they they really it takes a certain amount of of intellect and a certain amount of brain power actually >> I know someone during co want to try to buy a cow. >> Exactly. First of all, anxious people a lot I don't want to say anxious people a lot of people who suffer with anxiety loved COVID. A lot of my clients were like this is the best the best thing that ever happened to me. like they wish because they wish everybody would walk around with gloves and masks and and you know, especially the ones that are are dirt or germ, you know, anxious about that. They love that. Like they were to they were finally like finally the world understands what we live with. They had a much easier time in general with COVID than than the rest of the world that didn't even understand how to deal or or tolerate their anxiety. So it is it's closely associated with the very bright who can think through consequences like really you know when when something happens in you know in life to someone who who has anxiety to begin with and then there's an illness in the family or there's a divorce in the family and this one child just can't tolerate it. It's because they they they completely understand and they've gone through because this is what they do. They can't handle they they have a need for control. They can't handle doubt. So they end up in order to try to be p you know get more power they go through every single situation in their heads to try to make sense of it or try to gain control. So of course when you're when you're laying at night and you're thinking about all the different scenarios like how could you not be anxious about that whereas somebody else you know a different kid is just you know more happy golucky is just like whatever like you'll be fine. So, it's definitely very highly associated with the with the bright and the creative. And I also find that when children when when children are told that they really, you know, they're they're proud of it. They become proud of their anxiety. They love it. >> Interesting. All right. And and so how do you know if a child needs like an intervention? Like when what's the difference when a parent should just say, you know, whatever, just leave it, move on, or they should really reach out for help. >> So, if there's something that I can scream from the rooftops, it's manage the anxiety. when the anxiety is mild because what hap it's a process. So if we if we understand if we see that a child is not able to take a reasonable risk that's what we say we ask the child look to your right look to your left are most people in your culture are most people in your age group able to do this thing and you can't it's it's it's debilitating and it's it's it's not allowing you to function. That can be that your anxiety is holding you back. So we we ask them can they take a reasonable risk? if they're not able to take a reasonable risk. Or if the parent is tending to the anxiety, the parent stopped going to weddings at night because because the child can't be home at night, that the parent is accommodating their anxiety. You have a 14-year-old still sleeping in the parents room because they can't. If we find ourselves understanding and accommodating the anxiety and the child is not able to take a reasonable risk and it becomes like at 8 years old they can't they don't really want to um you know be home alone with the babysitter but you know at 12 years old that's already not age appropriate. So like is the anxiety age appropriate? At at these points a parent has to stop and tell themselves that it really is inhibiting their functioning. And once the parent learns how to speak differently and once the child understands what they need to do then it's practice. People are the question is like what is it too early? I always say it's never too early. It's never too late. If a child at four understands but the first day before kindergarten this is hard and this feels uncomfortable but I can do this because I am strong and because I I know that I can do this. I mean that's the most powerful statement somebody can have for the rest of their life. that that that's what you want. >> So without without saying everything because then no one if you just say everything now then no one's going to buy your course. Give the top two tricks of the trade for a parent as a a child with they're all to me this similar families that's not don't pick one of sleepover or a test scared of an uh the first day of school. What is the language that parents should learn or the tools that parents should use in trying to manage a mild anxiety before it takes over the child's life? >> I was waiting for you to ask this question. It's my favorite question. What's the biggest mistake that parents make? And it really is providing reassurance. And it's providing reassurance. Reassurance is called reassurance because it is reassuring. And there's no problem with reassuring a child when they need the reassurance. And the reason why parents reassure their children is because it's reassuring in the moment. It helps in the short term when the ch the night before school and the child is 10 o'clock at night and the child's in third grade and the child's like, I don't know if I'm going to like my new class. I don't know if I'm going to like my Revly. I don't know if I'm going to like my teacher. What if I don't like my seat? And all of these what if questions that the what if brain is firing and just on and and and the parent just says, I'm sure it's going to be good. It's going to be great. you're going to love your teacher. You're going to love your class. And the reason why they're reassuring them is honestly just to just to stop them from asking questions. The main reason why people reassure their children is because we want we want we want them to stop. We want them to stop asking these questions. We can't handle these what if. >> It's trying to shut them up is what it's trying to do. >> Yeah. That step I mean >> or get or get over I have other kids to tend to. I have I want to go to sleep. It's 10:00 at night. It's going to be fine. It will be fine. there's not going to be fire >> is it just doesn't work or it backfires? >> It backfires. I'll tell you why it backfires because what happens I had a parent who the the child the child was afraid of rain and the the mother called me like three times like you know between that between 8:20 and 8:25 she going to be in school today you're going to be in school today it's supposed to rain and I told her I told my daughter that if it rains she should find you and you'll call me and I'll come pick her up. So I walked her through and the kid was like getting out of of carpool to go to, you know, and we can say it's all about carpool. The kid was getting out of of of carpool to go to to school and afterwards I called her back and I said, "Let's just let's just explain. Let's just unpack what happened. Now your child a had an anxiety about rain. Now she's going to have an anxiety that she's not going to be able to find me when it starts raining and she's going to have an anxiety that you're not going to pick up her your phone." And we've created so many anxieties for her because it's not about the rain, it's about the uncertainty, it's about the doubt. So we just created so many more areas for her that to be uncertain. So when now I said she I said I don't I said I'm only going to be in school for a few hours today. I don't know if the exact time that that it's going to rain I'm going to be there. So when but now she's going to spend a whole day trying to find me just to make sure that I'm there when it rains. What happens in that in those situations is that what happens if it rains, the child couldn't find me or the child could find me. I call her and she says, "I'm not there." We've created a lot of distrust. We've created a lot, you know, and and then the next time it happens and the and the parent wants to reassure the child again, the child is not going to go for that because it's not what it's about. It's not about just answering the question. It's about being able to handle, you know, the uncertainty. Is it gonna is it going to rain when I'm in school? Is it going to, you know, so so really the appropriate response at that point is to lean in and to say this feels so uncomfortable for you. I you don't know what time the rain is going to start. We wish we were weatherman. We we we're not weatherman. We can't we we we know it's supposed to start around 2 three. You know, we understand that. You got this. We're strong enough to handle this. You can and at that point I mean I do teach 18 different techniques that we can do at that time. whether it's positively reinforce them through their behavior, you know, whether we gradually expose them to rain. A lot of the the treatments that we do for anxiety are not in that anxious moment. So parents will call me always like at 8:22 when the kid is coming out of the class. I always say like now like now you want to reassure them, reassure them like that's the only thing you have. It's the only thing you've got. It's the only tool that's in your toolbox. But when but that's it's it's it causes a tremendous amount of mistrust and um a lot of frustration on both ends because the parent is just like get out of my car. I need to go. And the kid is like well like you left me stranded. Like I I'm catching red of rain and now what am I supposed to do? Like I don't have a good plan in place. And they end up they a lot of times parents like they really do lose trust. Your reby's going to be so nice. You're going to do amazing on the math desk. You're going to be fine. You're going to present in front of the class. I'm sure you're not going to be nervous at all. We give our children such a dishonest amount of of reassurance that it it actually does backfire in many different ways. And I want to tell you, I get a lot of I got I got a lot of feedback from from children later on because I'm already been doing this for so long that I have clients that have come to me past elementary school. They come back now early married and they've remembered our conversations and they'll say to me, "My mother told me she'll be home. My mother told I was very interested about my mother not being home from school. She always told me in the morning she'll be home." But honestly, she's a late person and I and I and I can't trust anyone anymore. I can't trust. She was never home. She should have just told me she's not going to be home. But if she knew if she told me she wasn't going to be home, I wouldn't leave to school in the morning. So, she lied cuz she wanted to get me out. You like, so it really it creates a lot of disrupt and a lot of tension. >> So, reassurance is one big mistake. One more mistake is >> telling them not to worry because when you tell them not to worry, I I've had this also like these five-year-olds and they're like, "Mom, the baby's going to choke. The baby's going to choke." What does the mother say? You know, like picture the mother with like, you know, all disheveled and like just barely managing. Don't worry, I got this. You don't have to worry about the baby's choking while she's not even looking. So, what's going on? The ch child is is now like, shoot, my mother's not taking the choking seriously. I'm petrified that my baby's going to choke. Now, I'm not taking off my eyes off off the child off the baby. Now, they we we've just empowered the anxiety. We just put the anxiety on steroids. But when we tell the child not to worry in that tone and in that dismissive way, what we're doing is we're strengthening the anxiety. And parents are trying so hard to be helpful. Like, I got this. It's not your responsibility. The baby is my responsibility. Don't worry. But what the child is doing is is taking on so much more of the of the responsibility and it and it tends to backfire. Magna, there are mothers and fathers right now, maybe in their car or, you know, going for a power walk that are about to drive into a tree because they're like, "Oh my gosh, this is literally me every day that don't worry, you're going to do great. Nothing's going to happen. It's not dangerous. Don't worry. Don't worry, I'm going to reassure. Reassure." So now that we've told all normal parents that they just they are destroying their children's anxiet lives and are causing their anxious children to become even more anxious, you have to give them the medication. I don't mean physical medication. I mean you have to give them the solution. So So what should they do? Although right now you've just destroyed the self-confidence and you've caused a lot of anxious parents. >> Okay, that's a great question. And then we come to the treatment. So at at this point we're going from mild let's say to moderate and the parents are getting nervous. The parents are like oh my gosh my child is not going to be able to go to sleep camp. My child of course very often the parent is anxious themselves. So they're already like my child is not going to get get go to seminary. My child like how is my child going to get married? Which by the way so often one of the biggest feedbacks that I get from people who buy anxiety made simple is is this is this comic relief. Like I bought it to help my child but I did not realize how much I needed it for myself. Like I I've spent my whole life being anxious, not even understanding what anxiety is. I've told I I I I've relied on other people. I've called my husband and I said, you know, before I left, you know, you know, to do something and I and I need my husband's reassurance and then I hang up the phone even angrier at my husband, but I don't even understand why because they're I called them for the reassurance, but then when they gave me the reassurance, it didn't help. So I So most of the feedback is like, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe that I never knew this." And to me, I feel like education and and information is so cheap nowadays. There are so many books. Forget anxiety made simple. Even though you shouldn't forget about it, you should buy it. But there's books. There's little lions has has a book, Anxious Children, Anxious Anxious Kids. What to do when you worry too much. Don Yubner's book for children. There are so many books in there in like I said, we can cure we can h help manage anxiety easier than the common cold because it's all patterns and it's all redundant. And we've se any therapist has seen this a thousand times before. This is not new. So if if the parent is actually like, "Oh my gosh, help I mean like what you know now what the question is does the child need therapy? Um and of course does the child need medication and my belief system is is that as long as the relationship between the parent and the child is still strong and there is still trust then know that it is preferable for the parent to treat the child themselves. >> So how do they treat it? >> Okay. So so never in the moment never in the moment. in the moment. In the moment, you just have to just go with the flow because once the child I happen to be a little bit of a brain person, but once the child has is is in the anxious mode of the brain, they don't have access to their body. >> They call this the lizard brain, right? >> Yeah. They call they call Yes. Exactly. So, what happens is also is that parents wait for their child to be so anxious and then they get worried that child's not going to go to school or whatever and they start like screaming till they're till they're blew in the face. Just go already. Like I can't like So, not nothing in the moment. You just have to breathe through it. And and honestly like my you know my advice is give empathy for the experience that they're experiencing. It's a very uncomfortable feeling to be so uncertain. It's a very very uncomfortable feeling for the child. So in the moment just be there for them. be so careful not to shame them about their anxiety because what happens and I it's my biggest fear is that when children they they they start realizing that they're sounding like they're that they're a bit crazy and they stop speaking up as they get older because just to be told that they're going to be fine. So I should tell my parents that I'm worried, you know, they're going to tell me that I'm fine and and I should I should not be worried. So they start holding it in and that causes a whole bunch of other problems. >> Wow. What's the role of medication? Is that important? What percentage of kids respond to it? >> I'm not a psychiatrist. I feel very strongly that I have to stay in my lane, but I do see just from my, you know, many years of experience that once it hits a certain severity, I I'm such a believer in medication. I I I I have seen for adults and of children and I have letters what I've done is I started collecting letters from adults who started medication at a later time in life and thinking like where was this all my life? Like I've literally been suffering. I've been suffering and no one no one told me I need medication. So I started collecting testimonials and letters from people just as a way of giving other people when they start medication like it's okay you know like it's it's okay if you need medication like there's so many different reasons for people to need medication like >> is there any downside to trying medication? The biggest downside is that for some people it's not it's it the first one and the first dose is not you know doesn't always work and you know and the ner you know some people say that there's side effects but overall I'm a huge believer in medication I'm just I with severe anxiety with mild anxiety I'm a believer in in bio just getting the information understanding how to calm ourselves down the whole treatment which we didn't even discuss different treatment is to calm ourselves down from that anxious brain so that we're able to use our anxious brain. >> Mrs. Lieberman, I'm wondering with regard to medication that seems to be so helpful. I'm just curious at what age do you say that like we have kids who are in preschool or in first grade who already experiencing quite significant anxiety. Would you say that that should be part of the intervention right away or is there like an age where you feel that that becomes a viable option? >> I really think it's a question for the psychiatrist. It ha it has to do with what else they're experiencing. It has to do with how severe the anxiety runs in the family. You know, let's say they have eight other siblings already on anti-anxiety medication. Like maybe it's better to start it earlier so that they don't have to go through a few years of school. Or, you know, on the flip side, maybe they're medicating them too early because they just assume that they're going to need medication, but it's not really true. So, a very good psychiatric assessment is really needed. And getting a full picture. Somebody called me. She was sure her child had had anxiety. She he she was sure and I don't even know maybe she'll listen to this. Um and she said the child had lost a tremendous amount of the weight from anxiety and everything that they were saying it just the story didn't add up and I had seen this before and I said I really need you to go before you do anything I needed to go get a medical exam and turns out the child had diabetes. So like it's it there's a lot of different a lot of symptoms can look the same but you really need like a very good psychiatric or some type of assessment. So give us your your top three the top three things right like with a drum roll the top three things that a parent can do besides nothing in the moment the top three things that a parent can do to help a child gain the skills to manage their anxiety is >> okay so let's assume it's a a slightly younger child because this this intervention looks great but works great but really externalizing the anxiety is major being able to understand that my anxiety is separate from me and and we can externalize it which is which is what we call is such is so empowering to the child meaning I can talk to it I can name it you know sometimes people call it like Mr. Froggy, I can I can put it away for later. I can keep it in a box. You can shove it for later. You can You really You really can. And and and and very often children do that. They say, "Look, they really want to go to the birthday party. I'm going to put it in this box. Keep it here." And and they come back and they can talk back to it later. But externalizing is a really is a really good tool that that that that children and adults should be able to use. You know, we call it the the five question rule or the five minute rule. If a if a child is acting in, you know, incessant asking incessant amounts of questions or just act, we can say to them, give me your five your your five best questions. Like, are we gonna be on time for the wedding? How do we know that there's not going to be traffic? You know, all these, you know, give it seems to me like your anxious brain is in full-blown right now. Let's put a blie on this. Ask me five questions. >> Why does that help? >> Because the anxiety has no boundaries. It's just an unending amount of of questions. So, once we're limiting it right away, there's a boundary to it. And then hopefully they can go back into their morological brain and say like, "Oh my god, I'm making my mother crazy." Like I'm literally I asked my mother's 10 times this morning if she's going to be home when I come home from school. Like I'm I'm making her crazy. And once we once we once we get to that that place, you know, being able to calm ourselves down. Breathing is huge. You know what hyperventilating is? It's it's when I found it when I learned this years ago, I was like, "Oh, cool." Hyperventilating is hyperventilating. It's like they're breathing they're breathing so fast because they think that they're in danger. So slowing down the breathing automatically tells the brain, I'm not in danger. I'm fine. Like I I got this. I'm cool, calm, and collected. I'm in control. Walking through worst case scenario is is a is a very helpful tool for ch for for children. You know what to do if there's a fire in school. So we go through that. The parent and the child goes through that. What to do? What are you going to do? I'm going to run to my teacher. What if you can't find your teacher? I'm going to run to the principal. We put a plan in place that what happens is it's it works for two reasons. one, it's an actual what if you come home and I'm not home from school, you're going to run to the neighbor. Neighbor's not home, we'll go to that neighbor. What happens is is a very interesting fascinating reason why it works. But a it's it's a it's an actual safety plan. So they feel it's a it gives them a drop more of control, but also once we experience something like in a real way, right away they're much more less anxious about it because they feel like, you know, I got this. You know, let me just talk it through doing mental practice. You're going through it mentally in your head like before a game you practice. I think you great Michael Jordan said that before every single game he would picture himself hitting like the game-winning shot in the fourth quarter. So so therefore by the time he got there he read and you had done it. >> Love that. Last last one that Rebam can use and parents can use in the classroom when you're seeing an anxious child. It's a grounding technique. But let's say someone's very anxious. Either there's going to be a sub or for a test. They can look around the room and it's a grounding to find all the red all you know everything red in the room find you look for one color. There's a scientific reason but it actually calms down the body and it you know focus it's again the rebby tells the kid yo look around the room and find everything that's blue. >> Yeah. Count the blues. Count count the reds. Count the it almost like shifts the focus. >> Is that cabala? >> It's it's sematic. It's sematic. >> It creates organization and certainty. Is that what it is? >> And calm, but I'm not even 100% sure why, but it does it. I mean, it's very effective. And it's something that the kids >> It's certainly distracting from obsessive thoughts because you're not able to obsess in those thoughts. If you're busy counting the blues, >> you can count, right? This was absolutely wonderful. Thank you, Mrs. Leman. And once again, we'll we'll we'll give the shout out to the the course if there's any left. But I think one the way I think internet works is I don't think I don't think they right. You don't sell out if you could just download it. But um it's uh anxiety made simple and what's the other one called? Social >> social skills made simple. >> Socialism symbol at shify liberman.com. And thank you once again for joining us and continue and helping people of the world. >> It's great to be here. Thank you. >> So Rabbi Garfield, that was uh fascinating. I I have Nigius, right, in and a family member and I've relied on Mrs. Lieberman heavily in my own parenting skills. >> Wow. >> So, I guess >> I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Yeah. >> Um, >> you know, and and as parents and as educators, as as she kept pointing out, >> we'd sometimes just we we give the kids the wrong food and the wrong medication and the wrong answer. >> You're right. >> You know, the kid's hungry and you give the kid a pencil and you're like, "How come how come it's not calming you down?" right? And the kid is anxious and you tell the kid not to worry or you know in the moment all all of these things insightful and I hope listen the goal of this podcast is that all of us starting with the two of us should become better parents better a bame better man >> right >> and um I hope we're on our way >> listen it was very empowering because she said you know I think this is one of the things she wanted to scream from the rooftops is that it's manageable there are things to do don't feel >> you know don't feel stuck so That's a great message, you know, important message. All right. Wonderful. Well, I just wanted to mention once again, we appreciate all of our listeners who share our feedback with us, sending us messages, and the website is thearningcurve.com. The learning [email protected]. And we look forward to your continued feedback and your ideas and continuing on this journey together. Wishing you all the best.