S1 Eps 3. Let's Talk Camp (Feat. Rabbi Armo Kuessous and Mrs. Debbie Selengut)

You're paying top dollar for us to watch your child go to the manicure, go on vacation. We'll see you on visiting day all day. >> But if there's a kid that at the end of the day cannot function in a sleepa away environment, then he can't be in a sleepway environment. Welcome to the Learning Curve podcast brought to you by Mishbaha Magazine. We're raising children in a changing and challenging world. >> So, let's tackle the important issues facing from families today. >> I'm Rabbi Raphael Garfield, man of Yeshiva Torres MS in Houston and I love talking about kova. >> I'm Rabbi Ari Shonfeld, manisha katana of Manhattan, director of camp. I also love talking and sometimes fishing. >> Join us as we answer your questions and discuss the topics that matter to parents the most. Garfield, welcome back as we continue to try to discuss matters that matter the most to the parents today. How you doing, Robert? >> I'm doing great. I'm actually thinking the title learning curve. We mentioned that it's TLC, right? Which is cute. >> Yes. Cute. >> But when you hear a learning curve, what are we curving? What's being curved? >> What's being curve? Like a pitch in baseball. You mean >> is that a type of pitch? Like when it starts low and it goes up. What's that called? >> No, there's no >> You're the baseball guy. A sinker is when it goes down. But we don't want to do that. >> It's an inverted sinker. >> Garfield help. >> We're doing an inverted sinker on this. >> Okay. I hope one of our listeners is a baseball from Houston. I don't know if you'll get this reference. Whatever pitch they throw in Houston probably has some sort of illegal buzzer that helps them get the pitch. You did you get >> 2017? Okay. Okay, Dud. You might want to come up with something new. That's seven years ago. Three World Series ago. Okay. Anyway, getting back to the topic on hands. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. So, we have a very exciting program today. A conversation that's dear to my heart. It's about camps. We'll get there. But as always, we start with two emails, smaller topics. The first one actually is, I think the first time we're going to play this, meaning such a type of question. It's a voicemail that was left by a woman. And so we're going to play the question for us to hear. And then Rebe Garfield, you'll tackle this one, and then we'll move on to the next one. So tell me, when you're ready, ready to roll. >> Ready. >> All right. Okay. So here's a question that was sent in to the learning curve. I just listened to your first podcast and loved it. I especially like the part where you encourage parents to rever the rebby and perhaps even take his side while validating the child's pain or discomfort or embarrassment. What I don't understand is why parents sometimes send a child to a yeshiva that has certain rules and regulations which they don't expect to abide by and they figure out ways to circumvent it and actually even encourage their children to circumvent some of the rules. My question is if you don't like the rules of a school why do you send your child there? And once you send your child there, why can't you understand that it's important for everyone to follow the guidelines that the yeshiva presents in the first place? >> So that was a wonderful question. Listen, the simple answer is you're right. It's wrong. It's bad. It's not right. But you know, we'll leave the simple answers for my co-host and I will dig a little deeper. I think it's important whenever we're tackling I mean this is a question almost as much as it's the parents the leadership like what kind of school are we leading and why are we setting up expectations that are not you know being followed so I think first of all we have to seek to really understand the parents in that scenario and many times there's no choice there are other reasons they have to send to that school they you know there's not a million schools that fit the other aspects of their life I think that we sometimes live in a world where we might have an ideal but we're not quite there in full. That's one thought. I remember I met a man once and we were talking about the internet and they live in a community where they require their students and their families to sign like an internet no internet family and like he himself has internet and I'm like that is the most absurd thing ever and it's sort of like the whole thing is a known joke. It's like I think everyone's in on it. Meaning a lot of these rules everyone knows that everyone else knows that it's not really being followed and it's like a big game and you know that's obviously not ideal but I don't know if it's considered like as bad or place if we all know or das if everyone knows that everyone else knows that it's not to justify it >> right and just to add that >> it's not very inspiring as I say it but it's just how >> it wasn't exactly the most >> not exactly inspiring. Yeah. No, but I I do think that there are different types of rules and ideals. Yes. The ideal that every yeshiva that every kid and every family, every should follow all the rules in the student handbook and the parent handbook. >> Correct. >> But there are rules and listen, we're both from an island. We both know that there are certain rules that we believe in the XM. We think these are important t values that you need to have, you know, the right type of yeshiva. And then there are rules you have for political reasons and rules you have because you're trying to keep away a certain type of f. So not every rule was created equal. This is not mitzvah where every mitzvah itself you know we don't treat any differently in but I do think that there is an idea >> that's not 100% true not this is podcast but there are differences in how we treat like something and there are that says not to treat any >> well our attitude of the significance is that they're all like equally significant >> what I mean when it comes to when it comes to we don't we never have this type of conversation. But when you come into schools, not we try, we strive as heads of school to be as idealistic and as realistic as possible. And we both know in ourselves without giving anything away, there are certain rules in my yeshiva that if someone steps out of bounds, I'll turn away and not call out. And there are other rules that are that are incredibly important to us. And every culture is different. Maybe it's like the internet is a perfect example of a rule that in a lot of yeshivas they need for a certain reason and but they all look the other way during co when I had my zoom the United States of America there was a certain yeshiva I won't say where didn't allow zoom in their yeshiva and a boy won on my program at night won a big prize and the second that the program ended his manahel called him to wish him m touch >> right so >> I think that's an example listen ideally you know I have a different situation I'm out of town I'm the only school in my segment in my you know what my competition if you will. So I wouldn't make a rule like that. I I don't think we have any rules that are being violated in mass but I think in a lot of other >> like a school will make a rule to only wear certain color sneakers, right? Which I changed when I came to my sheep. I I'm a little more liberal in that sense. So you want to try it. So as a parent is that something maybe I know my kid was fighting for I don't know LeBron James sneakers and I want to let him push the envelope a little. I think there's plenty of room to still follow Beisha's mantra as a whole and yet still be an individual family and not feel like you're >> I just want to end off by being clear that it's not ideal meaning I don't I think we both would agree that ideally >> you know with Hashem as our communities get healthier and more strong etc we won't have a situation like this but given that we do >> you know I think we have to understand it which is really I think the questioner was sort of asking how is it possible that this happens. You know, that was sort of an energy there. I think that's why we're responding. Not to say that it's a good thing. >> It's a go. It's part of being in Guls. >> Yeah. >> Add to the list. >> Yes. All right. Never going to take the next go. >> Yes. Yes. My friend. Okay. Rabbi Shfeld, I will now ask you another question from our ever growing nail bag. Dear TLC kavote on both of you for talking about issues that are so important to parents as the end of year approaches. I was wondering if you think it's appropriate that parents send gifts and money to Rebeam and Moros. I love my children's teachers but find this kind of open bribery and flattery dangerous as it allows those with more means to kind of pay their way to have more access to teachers. Isn't that against the hashka of the >> So interesting question. I'm going to try to navigate this carefully. The short answer I think is absolutely not. That is not against I think it is the opposite. I think it is the hashka of the to show direct and gratitude to our superheroes to our morals to our we did the garbage man and the mailman you know holiday season. So those that we entrust our children with and it doesn't have to be it's not about at least as a rebi for me it wasn't necessarily about the amount of money but the expression of a beautiful letter this woman or father is asking about the end of the year maybe do it at the beginning of the year it's more impactful for you because the care about that relationship but mayor of told a friend of mine the only that's in the is giving money to notice. >> Wow. >> So, I think it has extreme importance. I just know how good my rebum feel when they get money. I'm being honest. And also just as excited when they get cards that are written with emotion and feeling. Don't do what a Rebi in Yeshua Spring Valley told me he once got. I'm a fourth year rebi got a letter from a parent that said, "There is no amount of money in the world that can express the amount of Hakarat we have for you. Sincerely, the Goldstein with no money aside. I think it's important and valuable. >> Let me just push back a draft and like go a little deeper in what I think this person is getting at which is in your experience in yeshivas and around the world of film. Do you think people with money who are generous and really are the people who had the means to really give a lot to yeshivas and be part of the leadership because of that do you think they get a better experience as students? They get better treatment. They get more concern from manhala. Do you find that the people with money have a better experience? >> Do I have to answer that question? >> Well, I think that's what the question is really getting at meaning if the people with means are able to really express it in a way that people with not aren't. And as you called it from Mayor Stern and works because that's the whole player that tells us that works. So essentially people with money are going to end up with a better experience. And I think the questioner is saying is fair respond to that. >> I'm not going to ignore that reality. But I don't think that has anything to do specifically with or it has nothing to do with your child in yeshiva. people that have means. This is a challenge. Whether it's their influence on Russia yeshiva, whether it's the influence on big yeshivas, whether it's the influence on schools and on schools and on politics, right? Right? There is of course an influence that money has in every single aspect of our society. And that's is a reality, but I don't think it is any different said this. I don't think it's any more in yeshiva than it is in any other walk of life. So, do we wish that everyone would be treated perfectly equal unrelated to whether they have means? Of course. Is that the reality? No. There's definitely a semblance of to those that help support yeshivas and shuls and midrashim and organizations. But I would tell you as someone that was a rebi for a long time and that someone that's a man now, it's not what we focus on or work on. Oh, there's a wealthy parent, so therefore we have to make sure da da da da. No, you want to know the wealth the people that give money anywhere have sometimes more influence than we would like them to have. I think that question is the same question on a yeshiva that it is on every single walk of life within our Jewish society. >> That's a fair answer. I mean, I think in yeshiva it's a little more just because they're nonprofit organizations that are so desperate for funds and so sensitive to that. But I do believe as you're sort of saying that's a made in the world that you know and for for whatever reason I also would say not that you disagree with this along the lines of what you're saying is there are many ways that a family could show a car to without spending a lot of money like especially if it's known that they're not the most wealthy people the knows it's interesting it's almost like if they're wealthy there's an expectation that they express it with money and if they don't it's almost like it's like why aren't to expressing it. I know you have the means. But in families where you know everyone knows who has a lot of money and not generally they bake cookies or they send a nice manas or they write a nice letter and you feel the sincerity within what they're able to do. I think that goes as far for like you're saying for that. >> Exactly. And that's why I'm a little bit I don't like that pointedness of the wealthier family because again as I said that's a societal challenge but in yeshiva the rebay and they get these beautiful cards and something for shabas and when it comes to purim and baby gift it's not about the object it's about the subject and something that is heartfelt and given with a beautiful note I still have a lot of notes that I got and letters from parents from 1015 years ago we are lowhanging fruit as rebum as manalam as moros As teachers, we give our kishkas to these kids literally and we're mentioned, right? We're people to and a thank you to a heartfelt thank you goes a long way and is not bribery. It's not flattery. It's appropriate. >> Don't disagree. Okay. Well, that was a wonderful start. Two great questions and really insightful answers. Thank you, Rabbi Schfeld. Regardo, this episode is a little bit of a maybe a change from the way we've run the previous few episodes in that I have the now of turning from an interviewer to an interviewee that I think I'm going to become a guest moving forward as we tackle a very important topic that is dear to many families and to myself also the topic of camps, the importance of camps. We hope to have an episode of boys camps and girls camps. But as an unabashed camp director and camp groupy, I'm going to now turn the reigns over to you. So you can ask I guess myself some questions. And we have this and the honor today of being joined by Rabbi Arma Cassus. Rabbi Arma Cassus is the head counselor in Camp Romo and has been for decades. And I will never forget one of the first things I said to Armo to Rabbi Kassus was I grew up not having the best I don't know if you remember this Rabbi Kasseuse. I grew up I was in Heler and Bikita and Roma was one of our competitors on the court off the court and then I worked in Roma for two summers and I went over to Rabbi Cassus and I said I owe you an apology and Rabbi Kassus you said why and I said for having the wrong impression of you for 17 years and so I learned a lot under Rabbi Kasus so has many many people in the world at large is an all during the year but specifically here in the camp world but now it's a twoon It's me and Arma vers Garfield. >> Thank you so much Ari. I know what you're doing this summer. My question is you go to camp this summer if you're not. How'd you like to come to camp Rome though? >> Yeah, I wish I would go to camp. It's funny. It's the kind of thing that just it's definitely part of my personality but I just never cracked that nut. So >> just to be just to be clear, the purpose of that question was just so that you can say I would love to camp and then Rabbi Fifer would send an email sorry camp Roma was full. That was the entire purpose. >> Of course it's full. Of course it's full especially for the kesh the teaching staff. I'm sure okay so this is wonderful. Camp is a very special place. I did go to camp when I was a kid and had great memories. The camp I went to is no longer around. But the relationships that I had, this is a 1987 and 88, maybe ' 89. That's two years ago. But believe it or not, the relationships that I made then, I still have many of them with the campers, the counselors, my peers. It was a very special relationship, a special time. And so I appreciate the unique experience the camp is. And I'll just say for someone who's a manal out of town, it's even more important for us because it's an opportunity for our two tid to reconnect to see the rest of the world to connect with Tom from all over the country. So we we're very big camp people here in Houston and we actually try to make sure that our schedule at school fits with the camp schedule because it's so important to us. So camp is a critical piece and it's great to have two experienced and successful camp leaders here to explore some of these points. We brainstormed, we asked our friends, colleagues and listeners to share some questions, some common questions. We hope we have 10 common questions for boys camps. We thought we would ask them and hear what you both have to say about these topics. And question number one is camp is expensive, very expensive. Explain to me why every one of my friends says that I must send my seventh grade son to camp. What is so magical about camp that he can't get it in a local day camp or do some kind of camp mommy or home camp? Why do we have to send everyone to sleepway camp? >> Clearly the questioner never went to camp. >> No, but Ari, go ahead. This is your platform. Go ahead. >> I'll start. I think the first part of it is that it's not a to go to camp. And if your family dynamic and if your child is someone that you think family trip is better, I'm not here to say that such of to go to camp. Obviously, it's not. I'm just going to speak as someone that not only grew up in camp is my camping is one of my very special, but my relationships in life, my my inspiration to go into so much of that was formed in camp. So to me, I'm going to not answer the question directly by saying, is there must I send your son to camp? I don't know. I don't know who this mother or father is. All I will say is that someone that's been going to camp almost since 1987, the value of going through a summer outside a classroom setting, but picking up and working on relationships in a real setting, in a bunk setting, on talent, whether it's athletics, whether it's the ability to sing, to act in a play, be artistic, the self-expression that as galdig as arisha system ism. We're all men and we all love what we do during the year, but it is definitely muted in the ability to self-express outside the classroom in the academic setting of our abilities to have our kids shine. And that self-esteem, self-worth, confidence that you gain in a productive, healthy environment in the summer is sometimes more effective and more impactful than it is during the year. I'm going to share one story that happened in camp a couple of years ago, last night of camp. This was a counselor, but I think it's the same counselor came to me the last night of camp when all of these stories take place 2 o'clock in the morning on the baseball field and he says, "Can I talk to you for a moment?" And he came over to me with tears in his eyes, not fake ones. He said to me an amazing thing. He said, "I learn in such and such a good yeshiva." He said, "And during the year, I'm a good guy. I'm not the best. I'm the middle. I learn, I start, my I do everything the way I'm supposed to. And I come to here and I matter in a way that I never mattered before. I wrote a song. I bunk one night activity. I had kids look up to me and he said to me, "I want to thank you not for this summer. I want to thank you for next month, but it's going to be better because of the summer." very self-aware counselor but a very powerful moment that I think summarizes the opportunity of campa but would you add to it what is a nuance or a focus that you get from Kim >> I actually I think I nailed the tremendous amount of points there I want to just say before I even say anything we're all we all know that if we are not good leaders and that we are not and passionate in what we do and to understand every type of constituent that we find in our schools. Then, as I say, you know, you got to get out of the kitchen. A parent is sending a child to a camp that is led with professionalism, proper staffing, proper leadership, then we can begin to answer the question. So assuming you're going to a place that is a camp set up properly when you go to camp and again if you're with a good counselor and a healthy environment and you're living in a bunk and you have to share and you have to deal with the conflict solve the conflict find solutions different scenarios you have to live on your own worry about your laundry your food business day ups and downs all different things that come with the package and you persevere and then mesh it mesh it together with great people and shabas and trips and moments. It's unbelievable what you could get out of a camp that you won't get elsewhere. And again, it's not for everybody clearly because the numbers and the data shows that not everyone goes. But if you're to go to camp and be if I stop and think of what my life would have been without camp, >> it's hard for me to even understand it. Anything I have forem has been because of camp. My sister should because I went to camp. I met her husband there. I can go a whole list. My shakin was Rabbi Mets who's now my in who I met in camp. So >> yeah. So I'm just you know again does that mean oh my gosh everyone out there go run to a camp. I hear the sha but yes is there benefits to going and a seventh grader you must go but wow if it's for that child it's tremendous. Other than the obvious children with like significant learning needs or significant emotional issues would you say there are certain kids that are not muggle in your experience like how would you describe a child who is not matzly in camp >> I want to tell you something happened about I'm going to go now 14 to 18 years ago in camp Ramu so I think that we're head counselor great division heads we're set up to be as much successful I'd like to believe all of our selections of head staff were good mim But now we're coming to camp and we're dealing with behavior issues and different nuanced emotional issues and we sat down and we said you know what why don't we be proactive you know we found out there was one summer where I had to call a parent and say I'm just asking you I am not pointing does your child take medication during the year of course I said and now she goes no for nine ten weeks he needs to break I said I really understand that sentence in terms of your emotional mommy mindset. Well, your child is failing here. He's exposed. It follows you. So now every case is different. But again, so what did we do? We basically were proactive and we sent out our mailings in Rome and we're very forthright. Tell us what are you on? What do you It's okay. It's not going to be rejection if you're on medic. It's not if you want to lower it. Let's talk about this. What happens is now you receive campers who are either on or we understand the backgrounds and now we work together home and school home and camp works together that kids who have medications that the parents don't want to put them on on the camp would not be a good fit for camp. I also think there's an opposite there's an opposite type of kid and I have family members like this that I don't mean to be so stereotypical they're introverts the social you know hub in Balagan it just isn't for them they don't enjoy and they maybe never will the crampiness of a bunk I don't even mean from a perspective >> they just are not social butterflies and they have no problem always staying home and going on a trip or learning with kabusa and working in a local day camp. They get very uncomfortable in the big chaotic which as organized as camps are that chaotic setting isn't for them. And there are parents that I will say I don't think camp is for your son for sure not this year. Let's see what happens next year. Interesting. So okay that's a good point. That's a really good point also. I mean some people just like to sit home with a book. I also have family members like shabas for them. There's nothing better than a shabas alone with a book for me. You know, I could survive that, but that's not exactly. Okay, new question. That was excellent. This one's a little harder, but thank God you're up to it. You two. Should I be afraid that my child will learn inappropriate things from being in the bunk unsupervised so much? I'm very careful with who he could spend time with while at home and don't want him exposed to all types of schmutz. Now, since Raonto went first on that one, we're gonna have Rabi Cassuz go first on this one. >> The answer to that is absolutely. Dear parents, you need to do your due diligence. If you are going to go to a camp, you better do research. You need to ask who runs the camp, who owns the camp, what's the setup, what's the Ashkafo, where the staff come from. Interview the camp. Interview the camp. When you get positive answers, if you're satisfied and you like, then you have to take a little jump and say, you know what? If camp is from my I think camp is good. I'm going to trust that there's a shmear. Now will you always know? You can't always know. Are the from camps whatever from means or regardless I know you love that one. Whatever from means you know even the most from have problems. Yes. But you have to do your homework. So it's not should you be worried? Yes. But if you want to have that experience by the way should they come to our schools every single day and be exposed who knows what? Yes. But hopefully they trust the leadership. Hopefully they trust what they the mission of the yeshiva what the stands for the hashkafa and we go for turn but that yes but the answer is there's always going to be things like that I hear you saying two different things that I want to really be clear because this is a real issue on one hand you're saying yes it's a concern but at the same time I feel like you're saying that camps mitigate that concern by the way they manage it but to me the question is doesn't the very environment of kids alone for hours on end lend itself to schmutz and you're answering >> I I can tell you again and again I don't mean to make a pitch and I honestly I'm talking your experience that's >> we're not mincing I could tell you Rabbi Fer the owner very well Rabbi Feifer puts in tremendous tremendous in vetting and checking for all I know he has spoken to about kids but you know we have >> I do many times >> okay we have to diligence to check out children. That's it. That's it begins there and ends there. So if if you fill the pot with the right clientele, the right people, then I'll buy a >> So what you're saying is just so I understand is that in a good camp where they do proper vetting, there is not extra schmutz talk in the bunk. >> Same amount you get get in sh on chabas, same amount in school. >> No, but you're there much longer, Rabbi. You're there much longer with much supervision. I hear you compare it to to please. >> I hear you. I would like to just tell you again boots on the ground and over the years I'm there 34 years. If I had to tell you does right fifer speak to me on a regular basis complaints from parents we're a private camp that parents are calling and they've been exposed to ABC the minimal you have. You're going to have a case with two or three. You have to but that's not our problem. That's not way in. I'm sorry. I I wanted to let him finish, but now we want to hear from you. Go ahead. >> I do think that on most of these questions, I'm waiting for one where we're going to argue fundamentally, but probably I think the biggest question is a goalie who on purpose moves the goal out of place when there's a breakaway to stop a goal, which I've seen a few times in Rome, but we'll leave that for >> Is that comparable to the guy who hits the three and puts on the line and it's really a two, but really it's a >> But those that are listening, those that know, no, and I'll leave it at that. Anyways, I want to add two nikudas and first of all, I do think that that is the most important job and I think the hardest job of a counselor is to manage and to be shy and I speak to my counselors who I have an advantage and that I'm only a second half camp and so therefore I have a rule that my counselors are only bmedish guys and I'm allowed to I have that affordability because it's bas my counselors are older which is a built-in mile to our system. I get it. But my schmoo to my counselors, one of the biggest is that whether you like it or not and whether you were a Mitsuian during the year or not, the second camp starts, you're a father and a mother and a Mitsuyian and you have standards that maybe you struggle with that you're not allowed to even give up a hint of a struggle in the summer and you have to be a role model and someone that has the confidence to create that environment in a bunk and that is your entire crisis as a council. And I think counselors have a huge in this. And if you're able to get as counselors that set not just that have the confidence and the self-esteem to set an example and a standard in a bunk that we don't use the word heck in our bunk at night like then you have a real leg up. That's number one. Number two is this is where I'll push back a little on Armo and that is yes sending your son to a camp is of course there are mil and is there going to be less exposure to forget schmutz to ideals and hashkafas new kids in a bunk out of town kids I don't know what they do out of town right kids that are from the more >> need those from in town >> yes wealthier kids they're going to bring in a wealth the answer is when you send your kid to a camp and he's exposed to other kids he will be exposed to and of other kids that is the mitz and to say no to say it's nothing would be unfair there's an amazing gam and shabasar tells us in the nuns the gar and the nuns tells us that there were four people that died gives us a list of four people that died and tas there asks the obvious tasha asks that we know so how can the say That's so one of them I heard once I think is named is you could stay in your house and not be it's very easy to stay home and do nothing and do no good and then you won't be exposed to anything be live a hermit your whole life but if you want to be an if you want to have incredible experiences of life you're going to trip up you I'm not condoning or saying my point is that when you go to camp there is and as a pu said do your due diligence make sure the head counselor is responsible be in contact with the division head and the counselors speak to them often there's an issue talk to the head counselor but part of growing up is that exposure will happen at some time in some place in which your kids will hear a word that he didn't know existed beforehand and to me if you have if you're in aic environment and you have a counselor that's learning on shabas with my son and he's in secondary whatever right and and he's going to keep up the relationship during the year and my son is now seeking and shabas. So do your due diligence and be aware and have your eyes open and send your son to a camp that will take care of it. >> Okay. >> Right. >> My son isn't a great athlete. He likes to play sports but seems to have inherited his mother's jeans. He is musical and creative but not a sports guy. Am I making a mistake by sending him to sleepway camp? Isn't sports the main currency there? >> This is probably the question I get the most. The phone call that I get the most by far is this question. My son enjoy it depends on the ages enjoy sports likes to play. He's not so good. You know what do you have for these type of kids in camp? Is he going to get lost? This question is by far the question I've gotten the most. I was a a day camp for nine years before that I ran now in a and I have almost like a copied and pasted answer. So I'll just say this was >> Mrs. Garfield. I don't know who's the athletic gene in your family. >> Oh man. Oh, shots fired. >> I don't know. I don't know. But my answer is that there are unique sports camps out there. And that's not what we're referring to. If you're going to unique sports camp, fine. My answer is always that the question has truth to it. The schedule of every single mainstream Yeshiva boys camp has a lot of sports. That is the currency in camp. That is that's how we fill our days. We're not girls camp in which every day is a different theme and a different song and a different dance. We play sports. So the answer is yes. There's a lot of sports in camp. That's ALF. You're not sending your son to a boutique camp that is going to do bows and arrows and arts and crafts the whole day. However, this is maybe each camp's different. In my camp, it happens to be when I tell this is maybe a pitch. Now, I could also say that our registration is closed also, so we're good. But we have a schedule in which the kids self- select part of their day. And in the afternoon, we have a special football league and a special basketball league. And then we also have, you know, what's called the wild card where kids do non-sports activities and kids are able to select their own schedule. And a good camp and a camp that really cares about the kids will use color war and kata and night activities to explore and to find real talent. I can tell you as a man, we put on a play PM this year. I know the eighth graders put on a play and all I was thinking watching these kids perform and these kids, none of them are coming to my camp was why I wish that kid was coming to my camp. I could use himata in this role. I wish that kid was coming to a camp. He has such a nice voice. He would be in the choir. And so if your son is not an athlete, he will be part of leagues. And it's important. But if he's in the right environment, in the right camp, we will find what he's good at and maximize it to the fullest. >> Got it. I just want to introduce two words to the discussion that maybe weren't said. And again as menal we can relate to this when we have opening day in school it's not just meeting the students and giving over rules and regulations and dos and don'ts. You got to do that. But there's a vibe that you're creating within the yeshiva. If you want to create a and mas and and derit and caring and akas when you're giving over that speech opening day, what comes out is so critical in terms of what you're shaping for the yeshiva for that year. In camp, that first day is huge. When the staff come and the children come, I am very careful to say, "Yeah, competitive. We might want to win, but who cares? It's not about the W. And we know that when Arvy's day camp came from Clifton, New Jersey, walked into Romo and beat us maybe once or twice for three, four, five seconds. It stings, but we move on. And the other word, >> it felt so good. >> The other word is intensity. Notice on display his competitiveness and his intensity. The other word is intensity. Seriously, if you give over intense, then what happens is you breed the vibe that's created is this intensity got to win and kids feel weak and feel degraded or or lower than the other fellow because they don't have that skill. It's so important and a win is important. The leagues, we have trophies and it's great, but you know what? Everyone hugs. Everyone loves each other. It's okay to lose. Tomorrow's another day. The next hour is another hour. competitiveness and intensity have to be monitored carefully. >> It comes natural to Rabbi Shonfeld this lack of competitiveness so easy for him. But talking about other camp is now that he's back in the big leagues and he's now you know he was at camp all these years so he's kind of excited but uh again >> I want to tell you that last summer and we lost to camp Aliyah it's a very highly competitive intense game in Aliyah and not only we lose basketball game we were up five with a minute left. I wasn't the one who made a bad play, but we lost. And they went at the buzzer. Literally at the buzzer. We came back to camp and Rab Mets, who's my Mets, who runs the Mississippi program. We looked at each other and we say, "You know what? It was the best night of Tibia of the summer." And we were so proud of our healthiness. How's that? How it was how we left the game and for 5 seconds it stung like very badly. I'll give you that. We came back to camp and it was such an incredible game that and you have to be able to impart that when you play you want to win. You play hard, you play with intensity during the moment, but not to lose sight of just the the awesomeness of a camp arena of of the chant of all that goes with it. >> Okay. Wonderful. Most of my son's friends are going with him to the same camp. It bothers me that they all want to be together in the same bunk. Isn't the point of camp to meet new friends? How hard should I push my son to be in a different bunk with less friends so he can meet new ones? I'll make a >> I would tell the parent, don't get involved. Call the camp and say camp. Again, assuming camp does their job well. You know, we don't allow full classes to be together. We want exactly what you just said, the variety. But mom and dad call the camp, throw it on the camp, and you go back to son, say, "Honey, the camp doesn't let more than three or four friends. I feel bad, but this is what the camp does. You shouldn't take a Christ over it. Don't hover over it. Let the camp take responsibility for it." >> Very good, Rabbi Shumpel. >> Yeah, that's one of the things that the parents love to say. Oh, I want my son with the LA boys and the Toronto boys and the boys from Houston from Texas and the boys from Miami. It's like the United Nations feel that everyone loves. At the end of the day, their son wants to be with his friends. That's the battle. And I get these phone calls from parents. Every camp is different. But we never put 10 kids together from the same class. Camp has its way of creating new relationships. Even if you go with your class, there's a certain just freshness to my camp friends that happen organically. >> Arie, the children do now. The children figure it out. >> The children figure it out. >> And they have their camp friends. I tell the parents not to fight it. We try as much as we can to create this mishmash of bumps, but it's usually the other way. I don't want my kid with that kid in his class. And then I'll say yes, but you realize then I'm going to pull you out and put him in a different book. That's usually the dilemma that parents face when they have specific requests of not to be with and what's more important for for a parent. >> That's a great segue to the next question. And I think Rab Shfel, this will go to you first. My son is bullied in school by a certain boy. We have it under control, but it took a lot of supervision. Will he be safe if that boy is at camp with him and even wants to be in the same bunk with him? >> I just want to change for the argument sake from the word bully to mean just to avoid a conversation. What does it mean to be bullied? And who says it's your fault? There's a boy that he really doesn't get along with and he really shouldn't be with. Doesn't get along with and have it under control and the boy's mean to him. That's I'm gonna assume all of them. I get that phone call. I get that phone call a bunch of times. Usually it's with how did you take that boy into the camp? It's usually how it starts. But I think this is where parents have to put their money where their mouth is. In other words, is this a parent trying to be that snowplow mom? The generation we call it a snowplow that help just trying to just get everything she wants for her son or is this a real factor? And usually the way I put it to the mother is listen, this is a real issue for your son. I'll pull your son out of the bunk because the three friends all wanted to be together including that boy. I've had this. So if it's a real issue for you and of course we're going to be there and watch and the councils will know and the vision will know and we'll be prepared for any instances of if it's so important to you. I'm going to pull your son out of the bunker, put him in a different bunk with great kids and then that's the litmus test. >> My son should have to be uncomfortable because this boy is mean. Call the manal. He'll tell you that this boy has been after my son. My son does nothing. He's a claim of madal. Nice kid. No problem. This boy's a bully. You don't want to use that word because you're scared of it because you're manal. And you know that bullying is a word that's going to get you in trouble. So you don't want to use it. Fine. This boy is mean to my son. And because of that, my son has to go to the loser bunk. Is that what you're telling me? >> So Mrs. Garfield, I speak to them often. I speak with not an awful not all the boys and obviously the fact that we took Yonko into camp we think he'll be a positive out will be positive to our camp if I thought basically if you're accused me of taking a monster into camp I have to defend myself by saying I obviously think that boy has positive attributes and we're think boys request him to be in their bunk including your son so I can't just recreate your environment that you want by pulling him out when his three friends that your son requested also requested him rest of his friends requested him. So if this is really an issue for you, I won't give him a loan. I'll put someone else in his bunk. I've had this where and then the mother son goes, "No, no, no. It's not such a big deal. You know, forget, let me speak to my son again." That's usually what you'll get. Or yes, it's that important. Can you please make sure he at least has one friend with him and we take it from there and throughout the summer, we make sure that shalom is kept throughout the world. >> Rabus, >> well, Alo is you get a phone call like that the way you just depicted. I'm calling the yeshiva. I want to first make sure this is accurate. I am not reacting and overworking and getting all crazy if I if this is just a hearsay in the courtroom. If the yeshiva backs it up and it's verified, if there's a bonafide bully as described by Garfield, then we're going to speak to the bully before the summer and say, "Listen, we're well aware. It's been documented in your yeshiva AB and C. We're letting you know when you get off the 42 and you walk into camp Romeo, it's a whole new set of rules. when you come into camp A, B, C, and D, we'll take care of that part. We go to the other customer, the other child, we say, "We got it covered. I don't know what goes on during the year. I feel bad for you. I heard about this and this, but we have it set up over here. We have full control of the discipline and what goes on over here. We got your back." And you take it from there, if you come into my camp, it's my home. It's my rules. It's my way of the highway, so to say. We're in charge. What would it take for you and I'd like you each to answer this question to send the boy home during the year? What are the red lines that if crossed you would send the boy home >> during the year or in camp? camp year camp I meant year like the school year the camp session >> you know it's a very delicate conversation but really I think and today I like to use the word every situation today with kids needs kids need however unfortunately when it goes into the gather of the topic that we don't want to discuss at large it crosses lines in the area of inappropriate the real red line you know even conversations needs bad language needs my point being that when the inappropriateness is at a level of >> that highmut how about meaning that's schmutz is a big problem right what about if a kid is a bully taco is mean it's fighting is that grounds for >> again so then you got to go the once twice price thera your work if you show have a problem over here we had it one time and it was all directly related to I'm not giving his medication and we begged look what he's doing I'm not giving giving me the medication. He was home and it was not easy because we never sent >> we don't do it. >> What would you send for? >> I agree mainly. I think that in terms of there's a almost a practical area which if we don't have a child under control he can't be in camp and that is going to sleep at night. If there is a child that cannot go to sleep at night, there are kids like that that they turn into a gremlin at nine o'clock at night. They're nice kids and they become gremlins starting at nine o'clock at night and they keep the bunk up and they and two o'clock three o'clock that's to me the rare scenario and others other than the red lines of being a mai right whatever kus alluded to but a kid who hurts someone physically the point on purpose I don't I've never had that but someone who beat someone up in a real way that I've never experienced but there has to be a baseline of ability to follow rules and really to me the nights are the time that you have to have under control in camp and we do and if there's a kid that can't then you don't throw him out the parents maybe you get parents that get melatonin at the camp and eventually he sleeps in the infirmary there's a whole litany of a process but if there's a kid that at the end of the day cannot function in a sleepa away environment then he can't be in a sleepway environment >> I could see how that could slip through your vetting process because that's not something that you're experiencing in school really. So, you know, we wouldn't know what goes on at home. >> I also think the difference between nowadays and maybe 20 years ago is you speak to the any kid that's a challenge in camp, you're on the phone with their parents and you're just are the division that is you are it used to be you send your kids and you call them pay phone and that was it. You didn't hear from him. A kid who's struggling the parents are hopefully are partners and they're aware and they say by the way let me speak to him and yeah we we had a kid that was just challenging camp. We had a chart with him. We made a special deal with him. And it's camp is it's >> just to piggyback you know it's fascinating. I'm sure you have it I have a multiple multiple stories where children who had issues in yeshiva and more with Mississippi kids than elementary that because they want Romeo so badly. They want to go back to camp so badly. We were able to manipulate good behavior during the year. I had last year someone come to me is Davney would not come to Davney. I mean I I can tell you a host of stories. The point being camp could affect a child from you could be during the year wherever you are whatever city you're in. He'll produce during the year because he wants to be in the summer in his camp. It's fascinating. It's unbelievable. >> Wow. I was going to follow up with a question. I don't know if this is your different policies about this but about calling home. How often? How do you manage that? Do you encourage calls? Do you discourage calls? How do you guys handle that? Rabbi Cassuz first. >> So, we have it scheduled. It's interesting. Marshall, this year we're going to start camp on Tuesday. So, from Tuesday to Friday, there's absolutely no phone call for a third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh grader. Friday Shabas Shabas. After Shabas, starting from Sunday through the week on a breakfast or a lunch or a supper, there's a schedule. I'll announce the morning Gimmel has calls tonight. The older kids, ninth and 10th and Elon, the phones are open at night. The pay phones, they're allowed to go to the phone because we treat them like little young adults. We trust they're not it's normal. That's called healthy and normal. But the other kids >> the other kids, the younger kids, it's once a week essentially or >> it's once a week. It's once they have a phone calling time besides this. And by the way, we tell the staff members, we tell the counselors very clearly, don't you give out your phone. And this is a better one. If you give out your phone and a problem comes into the camp via your phone, you're taking care of the problem. We're not taking the phone call. >> You touched a sort. This is a pet peeve of mine and that is >> Yes. And maybe I learned through trial the first year of Aish, we weren't so super about this. The biggest issue with phones is the homesick kid. You know the kid who want who if you keep him away from calling home for the first three days or even during the week when he lost the game and a counselor made a bad call. He's going to call home and tell his mother my counselor's horrible or this guy's mean to me and if you'd let it disappear for a day it disappears from his mind. So we have the similar rules. Yes, we have we start camp on this year on I think Wednesday now. I don't call home till Friday. My counselors are not allowed to give their phone to their campers. If they do we take away their phone. >> Good. how tough we are to me. It is the oh you give me I'm getting hives just thinking about that kid that is able to manipulate his counselor I just want to go home and then he pulls his mother and he cries about whatever or complains about whether it's the food I think our food's amazing but whatever it is or just wants her to send up a package which we officially don't let in camp whatever it is it is a sick ratio for problems we have payoneses in camp on Fridays I have my kids are allowed to have phones you know kosher phones but phon. If anific kid gives his brother his phone, and it happened last year, I took it away. It is the only way to create a healthy environment in your camp is by keep the fifth and spruce eighth graders away from phones. >> So, you know, I'm a non-amp director, although the truth is I do run a camp in Houston, but whatever. That's not that's not really uh the point. And I find it interesting like as a parent that you guys are so resistant to me talking to my kid while he's in camp. >> I don't want to hear from my son at all. >> You're paying top dollar. You're paying top dollar for us to watch your child. Go to the manicure. Go on vacation. We'll see you on visiting days. All >> I've never gotten a phone saying I've never gotten a phone from parents saying I want to speak to my son more often. Never. >> No. >> And I'm surprised. How about the one they drop off the third grader and you go and you find out they're on a trip around the world and now they're in Bangkok the next day. You can't even get through to them. >> Like that. But >> by the way, I just to share I have my p my counselors reach out to parents all the time. Share nas reports. I said for visiting day and for tips, you know, I tell just smart. My counselors talk to the parents all the time. And if a kid will say, "I need to tell my mother or something. Could be my sister had a baby." I'll say, "Sure, have your counselor pull your mother for you." >> I'm curious, and we've never sort of overtly said this, but I'm curious what our listeners are going to respond to that because, you know, as a parent, it's such a commentary to me that you're making about parenting, about the way our parents parent. >> I can I know how to have a sixth grade girl in camp this summer and a ninth grade girl, a nth grade boy? I would hope that most parents could manage a phone call with their kid without >> Yes. >> whenever >> once a day without making life harder for everybody. I would think crazy, right? >> I guess once again Garfield shows his non-amp colors. >> You're right. >> But I really wonder like let me ask you guys seriously as Manolan, would you want when your kids go home the father and mother to say, "How was your day? What went on? Did you get any tests back? Wouldn't you want the child to share? And with that comes a reaction, right? Then the mother gets upset and they call the thing, but that's healthy, right? I think >> that's true. >> Why is camp so different? >> Day camp. Day camp. Day camp. That's camp Garfield. Day camp. >> I have a camp. It's called Ruach. >> Day camp. Camp Ru. >> How about this one? do what we're doing and you come on visiting day and the kid can't even talk and then we went this and then we had this and on Travis and I learn I can't even breathe parent goes oh my gosh silver platter it's gorgeous doesn't get better than that what's better huge monus or a small one >> I listen this is a vibrant conversation I have a different perspective on it and I don't claim to have the MS with a capital olive I just it's a little surprising that's all okay >> it's just after all the in games. What we're saying is textbook. There isn't a camp. The girls camps are much tougher. Maybe able to discuss in different episodes are crazy nuts about calling home. This is the phase. This is 101 in the camping world that I hear that don't call home as often as possible. >> Okay, new topic. This one's going to go to Rab. We are spending a lot of money to send our son away to camp. Now, he tells me he needs very specific and expensive clothing to keep up with the other children. Is this true? And how would you suggest we manage this? >> This is probably dependent on the circles you're in, maybe the camp you go to. I think this is a bigger challenge in girls camps. The merch and the sweatshirts and the camp gear in general. I do think though camp has an extreme responsibility in this. One of our biggest rules and like loudest rules in our camp is we do not allow any packages to be delivered to camp ever. Now, this is >> unbelievable. >> What rule? >> Yeah, I'm a little surprised by the control. >> There are exceptions and parents will email the camp and say, "My son, you know, ran out of socks when I sent socks." The answer is always yes. But the Friday afternoon beef jerky, you know, the chicken platters, the food for the bunk, all of that is not allowed. And the reason why we do that is to avoid an arms race and to create an environment as much as we can. Camp is supposed to be the opposite. You're in camp, everything smells. I don't let parents into the bunk because as clean as they are, you know, you're in camp and your laundry, if it's still your laundry by the time you get it back, right? And the food, as wonderful as it is, is camp food. And the goal is faker. You shouldn't need anything in camp. We have a rule in camp. I don't let electronics in camp. And I'm close. I'm pretty friendly with the head of 246. I'm wise down my back to allow even 246. I don't let 246 in camp. I don't want the kids to be doing anything other than shakula in camp. I don't want headphone. What about the fact the question was more about before camp the clothing and the do you find that that's a challenge the buy tyros or whatever I don't know what the latest is that >> most of the kids wear most of the kids have tyros we had a kid in my yeshiva pre18 kid for perm this year dressed up like a yeshiva buffer and he wore tyros to school 31A kid I think the answer is it does depend on the camp that you choose and different camps have different standards that all of a sudden you know the kids feel the need to live up to I have not found that in camp in our camp that there is and he I've never got a phone call from parent. This question I have not been asked and my son is complaining to me that he has to get I I know so and so I have just to share a story with a person. He said this mother had it said 12 polo shirts to bring to camp. I know this kid had it happened to and she said yeah you have 12 polo shirts and he was like no they're not they're gap >> that's good. So I haven't had that question from a parent and my son feels the pressure and maybe I don't think it's just my camp. I think most camps and the boys are >> definitely it's a girls camp thing but let's let's see Rabbi Kassus weigh in on this one. Do you allow packages we stop this? you were there years ago, but if I would tell you what was going on in Friday afternoon for about five years ago, I think I'm going to say five, six years ago, we would have on air shabas three to 400 people come and then when you would have parents calling and saying that the fathers are coming in from the city for shabas and they have to go to Rome first. It was causing such a bahala, it is gone. It does not exist anymore. Friday, I can tell you does not even protect you. This is something that the Fifers and Romeu it does not exist is gone. Gone. >> Wow. Okay. And what about the pre-amp purchasing? Is there pressure to buy anything or >> it's like everything else? The kid comes home and says, "Everyone told me who where who told you that? Where's the data coming from?" You know, the parent has to be a parent. It's no I have heard people say I've heard mothers say to me, "We have gone to Walmart, Target, whatever it is. We buy all the stuff and it's going to get wasted and lost and ripped anyways. So why why you know >> I got it. Okay. My fifth grade son wants to go to camp but has not done in the past and he doesn't do well when we go away. Me and my husband go away and he's alone. How can I know if he's old enough to go away and sleep away for so long? I think we're up to Rabbi Cassuz first for that. >> You know I said dear parents please know your child. Don't experiment on us. Please if you know if your child is gets very emotional and homesick again if you're going to experiment and you're going away what's the fall plan where are we take you know we work we love to work with homesick children and I think that we have an amazing mahalo with that we really really do and you know there's a system how to do it but if a parent is not sure then don't send >> can you talk a little about that system I'm curious what are some of the pieces of it >> you want to know here's the key here's the key to the whole thing you have Ari what's the youngest grade that you have >> coming out of fifth. We're a little older than you. Coming out of fifth. >> So, we have coming out of third or fourth. Okay. But the key is the kid comes to camp. Whenever it is, >> you always push off and say, "You're not trapped. I promise you this child is you're not trapped. If it doesn't work, I promise you I'm going to drive you to the bus station." But, you know, the concert's tomorrow night and you know, leagues are starting and also on AB and C. if you could just give me a chance to show it to you. If you're not happy, I promise I'm gonna call mommy and daddy. I don't want you to suffer. There's a back door. You see that back door over there? Go behind that back door. That's the way to figure out >> and usually nine and a half out of 10 times. >> So, give and then >> beautiful. >> What do you say about this? Prepare when to go when a kid is ready. This is the one that pulls on the heartstrings the most is that homesick kid who's not ready to be away from home and is sometimes just balling. Oh, they tear your kishkas out and every single time or almost always I should say the parents know it. We're ready for it because it's this type of parent as you said that's unsure. The camp mother again each camp maybe has the person that runs it. Our camp mother is incredible Mrs. Wed who deals with these boys and as says there's an anxiety and a fear factor that is triggered. So they can't feel trapped and they have to know that avoiding calling home is a big deal because you don't want them on the phone with their mother because it usually gets their mother all sad. And usually the parents are much tougher than the camp. The parents like he is staying no matter what. I am not picking them up. They're much tougher than camp. >> Wow. >> And your goal is to as au said is just to deflect and you empathize, you validate and say, "Hey, by the way, you have leave and we'll talk to you after leave. Come to me tonight. Tomorrow morning come to me. I promise I'll call your mother tomorrow morning." Oh, your mother's not around. And 95 out of 100, they're out of it. >> Beautiful. >> Can I just add one little thing? >> My first year in camp, I was a fourth grader. Campa Toronto. It's only one month. One month boys, one month's girls. Visiting day's coming up. And I was miserable. >> The way the camp should be, one month. Yeah. >> Parents came on visiting day and I wanted to go home. And I said, "How could you not let me go home? You don't love me. How are you not taking me home?" >> Wow. >> 52 years later. How you doing? >> I love it. My son has learning challenges during the year. His school has personnel on staff who check in with him and make sure that he's doing well. How can he go to the learning groups at camp without this support? What are we up to? The answer is he shouldn't. That's the real answer. The answer is, again, I'm being very general. So, but I know what learning challenges mean. This is a boy that during the year learned in a smaller environment, wasn't in the main class. He's a great kid. These are the kids that need Kent more than anyone else because they don't feel that success throughout the year. And really, the kid has an amazing voice or he's an artist, but he can't learn. Again, I'm going to create the narrative where he can't succeed in a formal classroom setting. If you put the kid in a camp class, which is as amazing as our camp learning is, and we think ours is amazing, and I was in Romeo, theirs is amazing. Do you have professional or do you have like young people? Mostly I have found are amazing but I have found that sometimes that young not a counselor not a kid but that young person that wants to go into is he's going to spend his man summersman nights working on the garra on the games on the he comes in on fire as opposed to the rebi that just is there to collect the paycheck ves but >> he can't be in a mainstream class it's not fair to him you're asking him to do something he can't do and hire a private rebby I've been in touch with a fifer this year about private rebi sugia. So I'm going to leave that out of what that looks like. But there are people in camp. I'm lucky. My camp has a lot of 20-year-old bakim that are learning first because we're have older staff. We have plenty of counselors that learn with these kids and it's more >> the answer is yes. It's a private I don't get involved in the fees. I set them up. >> But remember these are these are so that you pay $30 for an hour, 45 minutes for him. That's enticing. It's an extra thousand dollar for a parent. And it not only does it change the kid's summer by not having him get kicked out of learning groups or him learning something, it creates a casure if you get the right kusa that changes his. >> Okay, Rabbi Kassus, what are your thoughts about this? >> I'm assuming you were talking about academic challenges, right? Not emotional, academic learning. >> So, it happens to be bar in our divisions, you have anywhere from 8 to 14 bunks in a division. So if I'm going to have eight fifth grade bunks, eight sixth grade, 10 six 10 seventh, we have we divide the children all of gimmel. We all we pretty much have a from the rebum during the year what level they are in learning. So pretty much it's Alf Gimmel. If you're gonna have someone lower than that, it definitely becomes a problem. And what was alluding to is is that what we're doing this year is that if someone can prove very clearly from Yeshiva that he has a system set up in yeshiva, he has a private rebi or whatever his system is, if that's what he needs a private enterprise like that. So the camp will allow that if that's verified. Stump could come in and say I want a private rebby just, you know, that's something that we're doing away with. But someone like that would be able to fit into that catcher. But the groups are already set up. >> Got it. Okay. Rabbi Shonfeld, do you set up the groups by level also or do you do it another way? >> Like within a age group, the strength of the student like advanced the average weaker >> we usually have as they get older the eighth graders will usually do it that way. I learned director Rebe Felis fifth grade rebby in Spring Valley who's amazing. I think if you create the right incentive program, which kids need in the summer, maybe more than they do during the year, and the right consequence program, then your learning as a whole has a real chance to be mats and you have to set everyone else up to succeed really. >> Okay, the last question we're going to start with Kuz. It's a sensitive question, but an very important question and I guess a good way to end because it's so significant, which is what do camps do to protect children from abuse in camp? Unfortunately, we know that this topic is an issue in our community and it's been dealt with, but it's also unfortunately somewhat still we hear stories and specifically when you're dealing with teenagers, there's no background checks. They don't have like histories. Very hard to like get into which kids have this miscellion and how and they're spending a lot of time in different environments. So, what specific things do you do as your camp to protect children? How do you ensure that? and Rabbi Kus specifically, I'd be curious over the years, how has this changed if you could contrast what you do today to what was going on 25 years ago? >> Okay. So, simply said 25 years ago, unfortunately, we all know it was not a discussion anywhere. It wasn't communal. Rebundam didn't talk about it. It was under the rug, so to say. And it slowly started to come out and it's been out. I'm proud to say again Ra Feifer the owner director of K Romu Kayara and Ari you know him person is is so proactive what he did about 20 years ago sat down with Kamatki we were giving Gdorim what is lashhara what's not lashara we have a whole document a document of information we actually send out to parents role play what parents should say to their children what parents will tell children what is and what is not allowed and then there's a letter signed of schmoo that says it is not lush and hurra if you ever have to report a b c d and e that goes out to parents parents have the conversation we come to camp the first day by orientation we have different segments of orientation we give out this piece of paper and we say the poll straight to the staff members these children all 700 of them have been prepared by their parents they have been spoken to they are well aware and well prepared and they know that the following things are not allowed It says over here they have been told that they are allowed to talk about it and go report it to any adult in the camp. We're just letting you know that these are the things that we expect and don't expect. My point being the communication, the directives is so clear and so unabashed and it's straightforward laid out that there's no wiggle room for any type of we hope and we go forward from there and what we say is the lush we say is you know people say cameras cameras cameras but Cypher's line is we have in the camp a thousand people and each of them have two eyeballs 2,000 eyeballs is a lot of cameras so if you see you got to say and this is what goes on and parents have been coached and trained. These are uncomfortable conversations and a parent could say what do I even say? It's all delineated. It's gorgeous. >> How about in terms of the training, the selection and training of the counselors >> again you have yeshivas, you have barm, you have a farm team, you have most my counselor, 90% of my counselors gone to the system. We know who they are. We know they're yeshivas. They see them as a young grumbanese which is a ninth and tth grader camper venif the boy and they come in counsel you really know who you're getting and then if it's a new person I'll tell you the truth right now I'm waiting on accepting three people for the last six seven weeks because I've been waiting for call backs I've been babysitting it unless I hear from someone you know I'm not going to just take someone even though it looks great on an interview. >> Got it. Okay. So ju just in terms of the background checks as a camp director not only as a head counselor I know that legally you have to do background checks legal background checks on your staff members and they're done for counselors I imagine that by Fifer does them in Roma as well but those these as you said these are kids >> yeah they're not going to have a record because >> have a record not going to have a record but there is a legal background check that is required but you know when I speak to my counselors and depending on the years there have been years where I've brought in project Sarah took a course this year myself with a bunch of head counselors and then owners and directors in camp another refresher course on abuse on there have been years that we brought in you know as a refresher to our staff from project Sarah itself which is similar organizations but yes we give very similar conversations we have with our staff beforehand the night before the big you know the air of camp one of the things I tell my staff members is that all of these rules that we have in place are there to protect you, not hurt you. And the reason why you're not allowed to touch a kid below his shoulder is even though come on, why can't I pat a kid in the back? Why can't something why can't I? What's wrong with tickling a kid, right? Maybe in a perfect world and in a safe and in a normal world, maybe potentially nothing. But you set yourself up and as an we have the same conversations. You set yourself up to be falsely accused or accused in a way that we will not be able to take your side innocently. And so therefore all the rules that we have in place which most camps today bar hashem it's very different than it was 20 years ago. I wasn't a head counselor 20 years ago but it's standard across the board of not being alone with a kid ever in a room not taking a kid off grounds ever. You know all of these types of you know way >> you have these policies written up >> every camp does. Yes we all do. And to have the conversation with the staff me it's always the same. I say to my staff members, if I didn't trust you, you wouldn't be in this room. So don't take this conversation as oh my gosh, what do you think of me? These are in place to protect your kids and you. I make it that we're to the staff. I'm here to protect you. And therefore, if you ever put yourself in a compromised situation, you're out because you didn't set yourself up to success for success. I think parents are much more educated today. I don't know of a parent, responsible parent that does not have a conversation with this kid before going to camp anymore. That doesn't exist. We're past the conversation of what if the kids don't know. Every parent does. And if they didn't, shame on them. And and I just think we're in a much healthier place now than we were. >> Wonderful. >> Well, thank you both. This was a great conversation and I think we explored a lot of the aspects of sending kids away and what's involved and what to look out for and it really is encouraging that we have such wonderful people running two of the calves. I'm sorry they're full already but >> all kidding aside if you find yourself in the east coast in the summer. No really if you're up in the country or anything I would love to host you. I'll drive you I'll drive you over to Ivy to visit each other. Are your camps near each other? >> It's not so bad. Right. Not right minute. I want to see when you guys play each other in basketball. I want to know that day. >> We're not playing Rumble this year. >> Oh, Chad, are you scared? >> No. You know what it is. We decided this year we want to be more competitive and look for, you know, >> division three. >> Sorry, you're the best. >> All right. Thank you. All right, Rabbi Shfeld. So, now I'd ask you to come back onto this side of the counter. And >> I have to say, Rabbi Garfield, that those two people that we interview were just I mean, spectacular. I think >> Yeah. If I had to choose a camp, I don't know. It would be a hard one. One of them has so much experience, the other guy is very competitive. I don't know. But, um, bottom line is that yeah, it really is wonderful to hear both of you speak about how much thought and care goes into each aspect of the camp. It's really great. Let's get to our next issue and topic which is going to be the girls camp. >> It's now our pleasure to welcome to the learning curve Mrs. Debbie Solenut. Mrs. Sad who's the assistant principal of Bos of Payic. Shout out to Payek. And I have to be maybe extra nice so my kids next year could be placed in the right glasses. And the camp mother for our purposes, more importantly, the camp mother at camp Bos Marava. Mrs. Saling. Welcome. >> Thank you so much. This is going to be fun. It's getting me into the camp. >> Yeah, it's never too early. How long have you been involved in camps for? I've been in camp since I was in fourth grade. >> Oh wow. Okay. >> How long? >> 20 You're talking 22 years, right? 22 years. >> I was actually a camp mother in a boy camp for a few years and my husband was a division head in Camp Kesser which is no longer around in >> Wow. Camp Kesser is in Livingston Manor next door to now was I went. Wow. Beautiful campus. Beautiful. Stunning five-star campus. >> Beautiful. And then actually in Aramheime Heler in a boy's camp. Being a camp mother in a boy's camp is really different than being a camp mother in a girl's camp. What can I tell you? But I've been in camps all my life pretty much. >> Wonderful. Wonderful. All right. So, we have some questions of common >> Yeah. >> concerns and issues and I'll start and ask you the first one and we'll take it from there. >> Amazing. >> Okay. Camp is expensive. Very expensive. Explain to me why every one of my friends says that I must send my seventh grade daughter to camp. What's so magical about camp that she can't get it from a local day camp or spending time with her family? >> Right. >> Before you answer, Mrs. Seligot, I just want to let you know we asked the exact same question to Rabbi Arma Cassus. >> So, we'll obviously measure what you said, which one's better. We had a conversation about boys camp and now we're on girls camps. I'm I'm actually curious like if we're gonna have different reasonings and different things about why why I feel like it adds so much to a child's life and a child's development. So I first want to say that I believe it's great. I believe camp is magic. I don't believe and I think if I'm honest I don't believe that it's for every child in the whole world. And I think you know we'll get into that conversation. I don't know that every child is cut out for sleepwake camp. I don't know that every child's ready for sleepwake camp. I believe that there's something magic about camp. I believe that there's an energy that everybody just puts in from every counselor to every staff member to every administrator. There's a certain energy that actually I don't think could be duplicated in the 10 months of school because I don't think anyone could operate at that level of energy throughout the year. So there's an unusual amount of excitement, unusual amount of investment there. >> Yeah. You know, hearing a schmoo once from Mashk's man in Yeshiva. Yeah. Yeah. And was for all those bakim that say I have a hard time getting up for shak in the morning. I'm just too tired. He said two weeks ago after two nights of color war you were up till 4 in the morning every night and you had to wake up your bunk for for shak and you got up. >> So this is you know of camp. There's an energy that just and the answer is you don't know how is >> definitely my own married children will say ma you have your summer voice. There's a summer voice. There just is. What should I say? There's just a summer voice. So, let's just go back to why it's so important. If camping is utilized correctly by the parents and by the children, there's a tremendous amount of independence kids can have. There's a tremendous amount of problem solving that they can learn just and we'll talk probably about calling home and how that works and packages and things like that. They can learn money management if the parents are responsible and don't just keep throwing money into canteen accounts. They can learn how to manage difficult bunk mates. They can learn how to manage kids from new communities, different levels of religiosity, different levels of different financial backgrounds and learn how to get along with those kids. Even I work in my which is in Marshall Indiana. Even the traveling is new for a lot of kids. They've never been on a plane. They've never been in the airport. Just managing delays, managing lost luggage. These are things that can bring out a tremendous amount in kids. It opens up new horizons to them. It can give them a little space from their families which is a tremendously wonderful thing. I don't know if this is where you want to talk about it but there are a lot of kids. We always say the camp is the great equalizer. Kids can get away from a lot of real stressful situations in their homes whether they're family members that aren't well whether there's a lot of tension. We don't have to go into specifics but you come to camp and you're just like a different person. You're I could just be me. I want to tell you a little secret. It works for the staff members too. We go to camp and it's just like me is somewhere else. I'm away from my job possibly. The children could be away from siblings that are struggling, not well, parents that are going through different difficult stages. And there's something about just being able to see yourself in a new light. And here I'm not the one whose baby's always in the hospital. I'm not the one whose parents are going through this. And I'm not the one whose brother's known in town is this. I'm just me. And there's something so valuable for the children to get to see themselves in another light. >> I think this segus into the next question because it's almost maybe a criticism or a critique or hara that I think I run a boy camp. I have extreme negas and the value of camp and obviously I agree with almost everything you're saying. Girls have a specific challenge and you said the beauty of camp is I can just be me. Then there's the challenge though of conforming to the level that everyone's bringing to camp. And again, I have to just put this out there. I have a 12-year-old daughter who is going to camp Marava this summer. So, I have to cards on the table. I want good blunt placement. I think my daughter Sar is amazing. But you'll get this. >> I don't want my daughter with Shanfeld's kid. I heard that. She's not a good influence. >> Not already. Don't worry. >> Yeah. No out of town bunks. But anyways, everyone has it. And I want to read you. I'm not going to say the name of the camp, but a camp sent out an email, a girls camp that said, I'm not going to read the whole email because I don't want to give the whole thing, but it said, "Dear parents, we want to let you know of a new policy. In an effort to diminish unnecessary spending and social pressure, camp so and so shabas attire will be limited to one outfit throughout the duration of Shabas. Friday night clothing should be worn on Shabas day as well, blah blah, stuff like that." That seems to me was a reaction to this arms race that exists, I think, more in the girls than the boys that I must have this merch swag. And do girls camps feed into it more by the camp sweater and the camp purse and the camp? >> Well, also in school there's a dress code, right? They have to wear very specific clothing. In camp, every day is a new adventure. >> So, here we talk about camp is where I can get away and just be me. But if I'm wearing the same and I don't know what they're called, so I'm not going to call it slinky skirts. I don't know. I don't want to get in trouble. >> That was a very good guess. >> Okay, good. But if I have to get this level of clothing that girls can be a little bit more susceptible to than boys, how does a girls camp navigate and manage that other than maybe doing this, making strict rules of what girls can bring to camp? >> Whichever camp that is, I want to applaud them for looking at a problem and looking for a solution. I don't know. Every camp has that problem and I don't know what they're going to do with the first girl that spills her chicken soup on her skirt Friday night, but I'll figure that out. Sometimes when we talk about this competition thing and I think working in girls like it comes up a lot. I'm always cautious that before we throw the kids or the camps or anyone under the bus, we have to look at ourselves and we have to say we have to have as mothers, as women, we have to have the right XYZ and we have to look the right way and we have to have the right clothes and the right shaitels in the right houses. Sometimes we like look at the kids and we want to figure out this competition issue with the kids, but we're not really looking at the source of it. I have a friend that sells makeup and she says, "I have to carry a hundred shades of lipstick even though everybody buys the same four." Right. >> Right. >> Because that's how we are as women. So, we can look at the kids and we can like work on ways to minimize the competition. We have to take a look if we're going to be honest at the big picture. But for our conversation, if you want to talk about camp, we're going to look about camp. There is a security in wearing the right thing. I think that we would all say that if we're honest, men and ladies, right? There's a security and wearing the right thing. So, I have a feeling that we're going to be seeing a lot of double breasted suits, right, coming our way because that seems to be the new look, right? So, it exists. We live in a society where we want to look the right >> here first. You heard it here first. Wow. >> You heard it here first. From the state, no less, right? Girls want to have the right look. They want to feel comfortable. It's just a human condition. I think it's real. I think it exists. I think every parent has to know their child and how much of that's going to play a role. There are kids that are maybe a little more or I don't want to say more secure but less affected by that and it's not going to mean as much and there are children that really need that. They really need that just to get their footing straight. I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it's an okay thing as long as it's not taken to an extreme. I don't have a problem with I first of all in general I try to say yes to children as much as possible and I think that this is not a psychology podcast but I think that we have to save our nose for some really big things. So I don't think parents should get hung up on all the details. However, there is a point at which and this is a podcast so there is a point in which you might want to say you might want to use some of your money towards that or you might want to earn that because that's really something that I think is excessive. Would you be willing to put in $20 towards that? Whatever it is, I feel like it's a general question. I'm giving you a general answer and then we have to work out the fine points of it. >> Would you indulge your daughter if she came to you and said, "I'm getting ready for camp. I need to spend an extra $500 or I don't know what the standards are for a slinky skirt." Is that what you said? Slinky. >> Yeah, slinky. It's okay. >> Yeah. Would you say that's a legitimate cy? Like, you don't want her to be a loser, >> right? I don't want her to be a loser. I'll just put your I don't know how old your daughters are, but they're not $500, right? They're not. They're like 50. >> No, for one, it's a whole repertoire. >> 100%. I feel like we have to know what's normal. And sometimes I'll give you an interesting situation. A mother called me last night. She has a 13-year-old boy. Everyone has an ebike. Everybody has an ebike >> here, too. Here included. Only had a small fire once with it. So, we're fine. >> Right. Right. >> So, she asked me, "What should I do?" So, what should I do with it? There's a lot of questions surrounding that question, right? There's a lot of questions surrounding that question. Where is your kid socially? Where is your kid? I'll tell you something interesting. Many years ago, one of my oldest sons wanted to collect baseball cards. And my husband and I have a little bit of a moral issue with baseball cards and baseball players. And we went to talk to our sons, Manal, Rabbi Rosen Swag, who's a mum and children and mum boys. And he said to us, and we told him why yes, why no. He said, "Rabbi Mrs. Saling, your kid has no sh to sports." He's like a little nerdy. If you buy him the cards, at least he'll have what to talk about and you have nothing to worry about because he loses everything anyway. Don't worry about it. The question is a very personal question based on the child. If you feel it's excessive, again, talk to your child and maybe they do need to chip in some money. Maybe they want to use some birthday money towards it. But I don't think it's an all or nothing question that a child should come to camp if it will give her a level of security that she's wearing the right thing. When I go to a wedding, I want to make sure I'm wearing the right thing. And when you go to a wedding, I'm assuming you want to be wearing the right thing, >> right? >> It's just a feeling of security. It's okay. It's okay. They have to grow into feeling good enough about themselves that it doesn't matter. It's not something we could force on them. You should feel good enough about yourself that you don't need it. I don't think we can force that on the children. I think it's something that we build them from the inside. They're going to be able to move away from attaching so much. So, you're asking me a question about camp, but it's a bigger question than that. >> Got it. Wonderful. My daughter is a picky eater. She is very self-conscious about what she eats and how she looks and feels, right? >> Is there anything that I could ask from camp to promote healthy eating or am I wasting my breath? >> Obviously, you're talking to the camp mothers. So, this is a real specific question that I get all the time. So, let me just tell you how our camp works. I think a lot of camps work like this. They send out a camp mother card. Now, we do it online. And I get a lot of these camp weather cards before camp with a lot of information the parents want me to know about their children in general. Sometimes it's a hard situation at home. Sometimes it's something that the parents want me to know about. Sometimes it's a health issue. Sometimes it's a bedwedding issue. Sometimes it's a social issue. Sometimes it's a food issue. Sometimes a child's a picky eater. Sometimes a child has eating struggles, disorderly eating issues. And all those situations come my way. We have gluten-free. We have nutree. We have girls that are allergic to fish. We have girls that are to red dye number two. Like we have everything in camp and we work very hard to make the kids comfortable. I will tell you that everything and everybody has moved towards a healthier lifestyle. So I think the camps are reflecting that at least the girls camps. There really are healthy foods at every meal. And also we actually have a cook a chef that will make a gluten-free option for every option with gluten. If there's noodles, there's gluten-free noodles. If there's >> you know we also do it in my camp. And just to highlight this, I got an email recently about a mother that unfortunately her son she thinks was diagnosed with celiac and she wrote, "Can he still come to camp?" It's brand new to her. Like you could tell in the email, besides it's obviously it's a life-changing diagnosis, but you can live long and healthy lives with celiac. But she was like, "Do I have to pull him out of camp?" And it was so reassuring to her that my response to her was, "Mrs. Soando, we have a gluten-free kitchen." basically our chef and I don't as I said Maro doesn't the same thing I think most camps by every meal is an option one of our division heads is gluten-free our camp mother will buy like your son won't even realize that two days into the camp and her response back was she was very thankful but it was such a I think a difference between 20 years ago and today >> absolutely and some girls are very weight conscious there are girls that have lost weight and they want to keep it off in camp there's somebody to talk to in the camp about that there's someone that will help your daughter there's always people going shopping there's always fruits and vegetables. I just want to say two more things just about food. The way the question was worded was actually interesting. There are kids that are really very particular. They really are and they really won't eat things that their mother doesn't make. If they >> that their mother does make Yeah. >> But if it's a degree where you really think there's nothing that can make my daughter happy, that goes back to what we spoke about originally. Like that might be a readiness question for camp together because that just might be an adapting question. If my kid's not going to eat anything, I can't take responsibility for a girl that's in the sun and playing sports and outside and refuses to eat. We've had situations like that. And I want to just throw in one more thing about food and that is canteen. Okay. I just want to talk about canteen for a second. One of the things I do as camp mother is I do look at the balances of what kids are spending in the canteen. I do. >> Yeah. Because we've had over the years children that are buying a lot of stuff to make friends and they'll bring kids to the canteen and treat everybody to something really expensive because they think they're going to buy friends like that. There is a canteen piece of camp that is actually important. If kids are overspending kids like in custody battles that no one's paying the canteen. I'm supposed to pay for camp but I paid for camp. I'm not paying for canteen. So there's >> camp lure. A kid walked over to me in eighth grade and he said, "Rabbi Schfeld, here's 50 bucks, my mister money for my bar mitzvah. I don't want to know who. Find a boy that doesn't have canteen money and give it to him for his canteen." Eighth grader. >> Yeah, it's beautiful. >> But but you we don't do you actually will keep >> follow that guy. Follow that guy for 20 years. He's got to be something. >> Yeah. He's a special kid. He's a special of a kid. >> Yeah. >> But you keep tabs on their canteen. Wow. I wonder. Whoa. Maybe I'm naive. But we don't do that. I get an alert if the balance is rising too high because then I want to look at why either the child's living on junk and then we have to figure out like why isn't she eating enough from there's so much >> or is she buying friends or what's going on with that because of the team will alert me if it it's >> the next question is one that we asked Armo and Garfield his eyes almost popped out of his head he thought that the camps are hiding I don't know some old and nefarious activity I think you're going to say the same I hope as I have the same it better be because I don't I want to hear from my daughter this summer, but it better be the same. But it's a question about calling home and that it seems to be boys camps, girls camp have an extremely strict policy about girls. My my daughter last year first half was in a camp, an amazing camp, Khabiba, and there was actually a firing camp, right? And everyone's fine. It was wonderful. And they didn't let the kids call home. And I it was amazing to me because if she would have called home, she would have said, "Pick me up. I'm scared. I need to go home." So explain to Garfield who thinks we're all hiding something the idea behind a strict very strict no home policy. I want to hear how my daughter's doing. >> I want to say something just B of that situation is that your daughter would have called home and B probably 80% of the mothers would have been at the camp to pick them up. So there this phone policy is really it's there's two sides to this. Okay. >> I want to just say something about the phone policy in general. Okay. Before we get to the hiding thing part, one of the best things about camp is be here. Just be here. Be in camp. We have phone policies for the staff, for the counselors, because we want them to be here. This is amazing. This is gorgeous. This is this is away from everything. This is incredible. Just be here. Be with your friends. Don't be on the phone. In general, we limit the phones. Every bunk has a slot actually to call home once a week and outside of that slot. They're gonna have to stand in line forever at rest hour in and we do don't have an awning there because we don't want them standing there. Let them just get hot and uncomfortable and stop waiting. Right. Okay. So, here's the phone policy. The phone policy is that without it, no one has time to adjust. Not mothers and not daughters. Nobody has time to adjust. I'm going to just tell you how my summer is structured. Okay? There's four weeks of camp. Week one is homesick. Week two is hysterical mothers because the daughters call home week two. Week three is an awesome week. And week four is everyone's anxiety about going home. That is Mrs. Elling at summer. >> Like an absolute party. >> Yes. >> When is Clonopin? What week is >> by day nine or 10? I make myself a graduation party from homesickness. We're done. And then we just deal with all the hysterical mothers whose daughters are calling home about her flow for broke. Like all these things that like there's not like one adult in camp that can actually manage these things. So restrictive calling home is to really let your daughter be in camp. What should your daughter do when she's homesick? Guess what? There's a lot of great adults in camp to talk to. There's great counselors. Rabbi Shanfeld, you know this because you're in camp. We're also turning our counselors into leaders. This is a great opportunity for counselors. We want the counselors to talk to homesick children. We want the counselors to talk to a girl who can't find her toothpaste and whose shampoo opened up in her luggage and who can't find her granola bars and whatever other calamities happen. Right? We want the counselors to learn how to problem solve. My job as the camp mother is to help train the counselors how to problem solve to turn them into future camps. Right? But if everybody's calling home every time their shampoo opens, then we're not training kids all that. We've just gone back to question number one, which is this really expensive expense of camp. And I'm like busy with my kids shampoo and conditioner that open. Hello. For $3,000. Could someone please figure out the shampoo situation? Right. So, we're really teaching the kids how to problem solve. And we're teaching the mothers how to take a step back. Wow, what a concept. Right. We're teaching the mothers to take a step back and realize that their daughters really are capable of doing a lot of these things. By the time the girls call home, I'm being a little sarcastic, but by the time the girls call home, at the end of a week, they've actually figured out a lot of things. They figured out a lot of things. They figured out that it's not so scary to sleep at a top bump. They figured out what to do with their Amazon boxes. They figured out what to do. >> Less Amazon boxes and camping >> for the first week. >> That's it. One week. Wow. >> One we do. I'll tell you why we do it. Because we travel. >> Does that put you on the yes a yes a yes a yes a yes a yes a yes a yes a yes a yes ah sheish scale of camps because has an app that rates campsishness schools. >> Oh schools >> I'll tell you why we do it. Because the girls fly generally to camp and there's so much they can't bring because of the luggage restriction. So we let the mothers >> they let it they let it ship everything. But we're letting the mothers see their daughters as being able to cope. And we're letting the girls actually figure out there's another answer to my problems besides my mommy. There really is. There's another answer. >> I'm not saying that if I was running a camp I would have a different position. Okay? I'm new to this. I'm only in the school space. So I'm not here to like >> make a final judgment. I'm just reacting to what comes to mind when I hear it, which is the following. The way a school approaches parents is very much a partnership because parents know things about their kids. kids report things that happen during the school day. I don't necessarily mean safety concerns, although there if the god forbid was a safety concern, probably the parents often would find out about, but even just bad things that happen. It's like a safety net that the parents talk to their kids and it's helpful to us when parents call and share perspectives about teachers or behaviors or social issues. And if I didn't have that, if let's say for whatever reason in a school setting, I would have a rule that you can't talk to your parents about school. Now, in a certain way, right, don't worry, it's only audio. In a certain way, that would make my life easier, but in reality, I think it would hurt the children's education. I think that parents, their voice really helps us together get it right. And it makes me a little uncomfortable that you have children essentially children counselors. They're really children. You have some adults there, but there's so much time where our children are young children are unsupervised by adults. Things happen. And even if they were supervised by adults, they're not their parents. With all due respect to the wonderful adults, just like I'm And the fact that you don't have that extra layer of communication with the parent to me is like a liability is >> right. I want to tell you something. It's not a perfect system. It's not a perfect system. Here's what we do to try to fill in the holes that you're talking about because you bring up some important things. So, first of all, like I said, I have a heads up before Kim of a lot of things I'm looking for. So, I'm on the ground. This is what I do all day long. That's one of the best things about being away, you know? So, I know who I'm looking for in terms of social issues. I know who I'm looking for in terms of having a hard time getting along with people. I'm looking for anxiety. I'm looking to see which kids really are eating and which aren't eating. I'm looking for kids that are on medications. We didn't even talk about the whole medication piece. That's a big camp. So there's a lot of things that I have a heads up during that week. I'm in touch with parents. I will tell a parent if a child is very homesick, I'm not going to give it a week. So a parent can call them and say, "I wish if I would have talked to her on day three, I'm telling you, I could have helped her." Very often that is the case. Very often really the child needs a conversation with their parents. And I'll call a parent and say, "I know homesickness, but this is a lot. And do you want me to handle it or would you like to talk to your child?" So there's not like there's no communication between the camp and the parent. There's a tremendous amount of conversation, but we're trying to manage so the child can, you know, how valuable it is for a child to be able to speak to somebody and say, you know what, I'm having a hard time. I'll give you a case in point, okay? A girl goes to camp in 2023. Okay? She makes friends during this school year. They're in touch. They have a Shabaton in Lakewood and everybody goes. They're on the phone. They requested each other. They come to camp 2024 and things look different. It's not the same. I thought this girl was my friend. We even requested each other last summer. We were inseparable. But my friend came with some new friends and I don't have her anymore. So, I requested this book. I requested this girl and I don't have anybody here. Right? This happens a lot where things don't look on the ground like they looked in the winter. They looked on those request sheets. So, now what? So, choice A is call my mommy, call my mother. Choice B is, can I express myself? Can I talk to Mrs. Sonia? Can I talk to a counselor? Possibly the girl's a Chicago girl. Possibly there's a staff member that's from Chicago. She recognizes and she go to her and say, "This is really hard for me." Let's say you were a parent in my camper at Garfield. This is how I would explain it to you. Give us the opportunity to give your child the opportunity to learn to express herself and to learn to talk about it. My eyes are on your child, especially if you gave me the heads up that they should be on your child. There are plenty parents that will ran that she's really nervous about campus the first time she's going. Please keep an eye on her and I will send the parent to the email the first week all smiles for Hashem or you know what adjusting or is there a time we could talk just to piggyback and Mr. selling said that in my camp it's similar in the sense that we're not we speak to the parents all the time the division heads the counselors myself especially if an issue comes up we'll speak to the parents in the first few days that's all we're doing is speaking to usually homesick parents kids that are disappointed they're in the wrong bunk things of that nature and throughout the year we'll give heads up I've called the camp beforehand as a parent heads up about this about my child that about my child >> I would think that a healthy parent has the ability to help their child problem solve help a bunk situation as well as Mrs. Selingut could if not better. >> But they don't understand the situation necessarily and they don't see it on the ground. They also don't know their daughter's peace in it. One of the things that I do just in case you want to know what a campmother does. When I was in a boy's camp, I actually had to cut nails. Okay, we don't do that in my Okay, I was like glorious. Okay, in a girls camp, every morning I'm in every single bunk because I check cleanup. It's a lot of fun. I go into every bunk every day. So >> prize for best in cleanup. What's the prize in the best in cleanup? >> First of all, I have a song. That's one thing. I have a song. Okay. >> I have a song. And then we >> Wow, girls. Wow. Are girls scams different than boys. Imagine said, "Hey, Rabbi Fogle, what's your problem?" I have a song, guys. Yeah. That will work. >> Do you know the best mark you can get in cleanup? >> What would you say the best mark you can get in clean up? >> 10. >> Pactic. Oh my gosh, >> that's the best thing for them is peace. I think >> How many girls are you responsible for? >> About 500. >> How many children are you blessed to have? >> Yeah, >> I have eight children tonight. All married. >> Imagine if you had 500. You think you could give them the focus that they need? >> You know what? I think I can give them the level of focus that camp needs. >> 500 kids. >> Yes. Yes. >> I'm sorry. I'm having a hard time with this. I feel that parents are the best advocates and they understand their kids and they're not all psycho going to come crying. I don't know. And >> their kid needs to scrape their knee and not run to mommy. The kid >> it's normal that mommy says when they call deal with it. Selling not going to say if they scrape their knee. She'll also say bubble. >> She means well. He means well. >> Mrs. Selenut's also gonna say bubble. She's not going to say deal with it. I am. >> Get the kid guns. >> I am. No, I'm gonna say but deal with it. No, I'm just >> Yeah. No, just like a parent would. >> So, you're a really good parent, Masleto. But I'm also a good parent and I want to be the parent of my child. >> But you know what? You develop a relationship with parents over the years and if you're in a camp for a while, people do trust you. And that's a great feeling when someone says, you know what, I trust your take. When I say to a parent, I'm telling you, it's better if she doesn't call home for two days. Can you trust me? Sometimes a parent will say, "I trust you." And sometimes a parent will say, "I know better." And I say, "I leave it to you. I leave it to you." >> The summary to me is the proof is in the pudding. And that is that the mitsus is the reality is the parents do not complain that they can't speak to their children. They love the independence from their child and the independence of their child. And this system with Rab Garfield's nice little this system has proven to be >> he loves it. He loves it. Go ahead Rabel. >> Everyone's happy. Everyone everyone loves this setup. >> So I will just add on one more PS that Rab Shenfeld is saying because the parents so much don't want these incessant phone calls from their children. We have a really strict policy with the staff. Meaning when our staff gets their phones back on Thursday night. Oh, yeah. They are not allowed to give up their phones to a camper because the parent will say, "She's calling me from all these random numbers. She's calling me all the time." We have a very strict policy. How old's your oldest daughter, Mary Garfield? >> 16. >> Great. She can be a staff member next year. You're going to see that it's going to work. You're going to see that it's going to work. >> I have kids in camp. I have a bunch of girls in camp. Don't even know the policy. >> How often these people Your daughters >> I have no clue. I I don't know. Honestly, I don't even know the policy, but if they want to talk to me, I want to talk to them anytime, day or night. I want to be available to my child. Not to poo them. I'm a good I'm a we like to talk. I love my kids. I love to talk to them every day. They're wonderful. I want to hear about what's going on. I want to problem solve. If they bang their knee, I want to be there. But I would >> Allan, you're bored in the summer. >> I I would just like to make a suggestion and this is just a thought. Put it out there for what it's worth. Why don't you have the parents sign up in the beginning? I want my kid to call once a week, three times, whatever it is. And then if the parents don't want to hear from their kid, you can respect that. I don't think they should be fired from being parents, but do anything. And if they want to hear from their kid, let them hear from their kid. And it's a problem. Then the grandmother calls and says it's a problem. >> I have a great system. Every parent could buy like a raft cub, okay? And they can load it up with how many minutes a kid in the summer scan with a ravka and like when they use up their hundred minutes like it's goodbye Charlie. >> Yeah. Yeah. I would give my kid 3,000 minutes or whatever. But yeah, if you're saying parents get upset that their kids are calling. Okay. So that parent they shouldn't be able to call. But a parent wants to speak to their kids. >> Show them my parents recognize the value of their child not calling. >> So great. So then they have to sign up. I also I know that we want to go into questions. I want to just put this under the umbrella of communication between parents and kids. Meaning if there's in general great communication just back to my bunk every morning and clean up. Anytime a kid has a really neat bed or really neat shelves, I take a picture of them. I email it that second from the bunk them standing next to their shelves. Them standing next to their bed. >> Wow. >> And send it to the parents. So their parents are getting pictures of the kids all the time from camp. >> Yep. So, general good communication, what you're saying is not going to be as intense. >> I think we have time for two more questions. We'll move off the seven because we already discussed it a little bit. So, you'll take five, I'll take six. >> Okay. Number five. I think it's pronounced clickiness. Is that a word? Clickiness. Fear. >> Most of my daughter's friends are going with her to the same bunk. It bothers me that they all want to be together in the same bunk. Isn't the point of camp to meet new friends? How hard should I push my child to be in a different bunk with less friends? They can meet new ones. >> So, I think it's a great question. I think it also goes back a lot to your child who is your child meaning how much security do they need? Are they ready to open themselves up? And I think it's a good question for the camp also field. How much let's say I don't know what boys bucks age groups are called in camp but let's say seniors. If the seniors do a lot together, sometimes you tell that to a parent, like they do so much together, even though they're not in the same bunk, they're not sleeping together. >> My go-to line to a parent is leagues are not done by bunk and learning a sader is not done by bunk. There's so much girls camps, I think, are different, right? They're more bunk oriented because sports is less centric. Even in the sports themed girls camps, it's easier for a boy, maybe. I think it's also socially girls are a little more leery of being a social outcast and being away from their best friend that they came with. >> There's a tremendous amount of thought that goes into the bunks. We try. We do honor every request. Again, there are certain things that on paper are going to look amazing and when you put them into a bunt, they do need to be tweaked and we're open to that. We're open to things that need to be tweaked if it's not working. We're open to making changes if we have to make a change. But generally speaking, if you talk to the parents and you explain to them that the age group does a lot together and ask them, would it be better for your child to expand a little bit? They might say, "Yeah, there might be some growing pains there." And as a CAM mother, back to our other little piece of that little heated discussion, I'll help manage them through those changes. >> Right. Yeah. >> One more question, Mr. I know this is a little bit of uncomfortable question. We asked the same question. I know it's a hot button issue always has gotten a lot more barak hashem help over the last 20 years and that's the question of abuse and healthy boundaries and can and how these girls that are the counselors are young teenagers or teenagers you could legally do background checks on them nothing's really going to come up. This mother says that my daughter is a typical 12-year-old daughter that she's a little naive. She loves hanging around. She loves sch smoozing. What do camps do to promote healthy boundaries and relationships? It's different with girls and boys, I think, being a father of three boys and three girls >> in that girls naturally are schmoozier and they won't be ewed out by sitting on the same bed as a friend when guys are a lot more possessive of get off my bed. They're closer. By the way, you touch your kid's bed at the wrong time of the day. O >> So, how do you promote? It's interesting cuz girls look at it like up to the status symbol like her bed is the meeting the hangout bed. So how do you promote on the one hand just camp ruach and just amazing and crying and screaming and jumping and on the other hand to ensure that the relationships that are created in camp are healthy. >> Right. Okay. It's a great question. I'm sure it's something that's on parents minds. I want to just answer the question from a couple angles. First of all, in terms of training the staff. So, we have a staff day before the campers come up and we do a lot of we get a lot in 24 hours. And one of the things we do is we go through a series of videos that are put out by an organization called ASAP, which is a Jewish camping association. And there's four parts of this video that talk about healthy and unhealthy relationships in terms of touch, but also in terms of just attention. Like it goes through everything. And we talked to the counselors about it. the visav themselves and visav keeping their eyes out for it in different areas of camp. Meaning, are younger kids befriending older girls? Are older girls befriending younger girls? Like to look for things that are just off? If there's two people spending a lot of time together, if there's a friendship that seems very intense, it can just be an unhealthy balance. So, the counselors are really made aware through this workshop. There's conversation about it in terms of things that they're looking out for. The message within the message is we're watching you as well. Meaning right all eyes on you. There's a lot of for Okay, I want to also say that Hayrava, some people love it, some people hate it. I love it. Has a really strict attendance policy at all meals and at all activities, which means attendance is being taken all the time. It's not chilled. It's not chilled. You can't not show up. I will also tell you that at times when the girls are out of the bunks for a long time, let's say between on Shabas and Havdala, there's hours where they go from on Shabas to Mina to Shabas program to shdala. We sweep the bunks. We call it sweeping the bunks. We walk through the bunks a number of times just to >> Not a fun job. >> Yeah, it's not a fun job, but it's good. Sometimes you'll just see a kid that had a headache and went back and they're by themselves. You just don't want them to be by themselves anyway. So we have to be on top of the whole situation and the kids have to be and the counselors have to be on top of it also. We do have a policy absolutely never ever sharing a bed ever and it's like non-negotiable. I also want to just mention, and I think I heard this in your question a little bit, is that if a parent knows that their child has a history of maybe looking for relationships that aren't great, or maybe they have a lot of insecurity and they're going to latch on to people just to get that attention or that big sisterliness, sometimes that's something that they should let the camp know that when she feels insecure, she's going to form really tight relationships. and mothers have given me that heads up and I look for it and I look for it. So we do the very best that we can bash we have a great track record as I think Basham almost all the camps are very much on top of it but again if a parent has a certain concern about their child and the counselors have to know that they are actually it's a legal term they're mandated reporters so if they a child tells them something that is uncomfortable for them uncomfortable for the counselor I'm saying that anything happening camp that the counselor is a mandated reporter by law to come and tell me or to come and tell one of the directors >> good We end on like a happy note. >> I have a question. A happy question. >> What are you looking forward to? What moment of camp are you most looking forward to for this summer? I cannot wait for >> I love that question. It's a great question. I think the third shabas kabala shabas. >> Wow. >> The third. >> Whoa. >> Yeah. Tell us more. It's just like we're there. We're just there. Everyone wants this has this feeling because the third chabas, but we're there. We're there. We're not worried about anything. We're just We figured it out. I figured out where to keep my nash. And I figured out how to get to David on time. And I figured out that the OD is not going to let me go to the bathroom for the hundth time after curfew. And we just figured it out. And it's just a schmuck. I think >> we both have a builtin advantage, Mr. was telling that we both are in camps that are only one half and I grew up going to camp all summer and the line always also my Adam and camping of ashion Kramer was that really camp should be six weeks cuz once you hate week six the kids are burnt out the staff is burnt out and think hashem for kalaw war to save the last two weeks of camp so we don't have that in a four-week camp you're so busy catching your breath because every day is the greatest day it's a built an advantage scheduling wise that to me the Friday night zirus when you start kici And you just you hear the thunder in Canada. We're same size as my Rava and just everyone looks around and it's we made it. We're back. Could you imagine December when it was snowing and we're here. You get goosebump I get goosebumps now thinking about it. We're here guys. I look at eighth graders, seventh graders, 10th graders. Guys, we're here. The ability to be present in a moment of chabas that Friday night this mirus is special. And for all those that are z are lucky enough not like our Garfield to spend their summers in in camp not only to give over to children but to get their just energy the reboost it's a matana >> it's magic and I want to tell you that when I see those kids leaving the last day of camp and I can look at some kids and say look what you did for yourself >> look what you did and they can see it and they can feel it they overcame whatever it was like and they know it whatever it was a friendship issue, a a rl issue, an eating issue, a social issue, aut issue with the counselor. But you did it. Look, it was so hard. You did it. And they go into school with that. Mfield, you're really just benefiting from all of our work. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Because they do they come in with like a they just there is a magic just back to the beginning there's a magic and they hopefully I carry that magic with me all year. I I don't know what else to say. I just do. I put on the Marava CD any day and I'm back there. I'm back there. >> Amazing. I will say this, you are the right person for that job. So, that is one thing I could say for sure. >> I'm very >> Thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you. And my daughter wants by the way just wants not a bunk bed, but the bottom back bed. >> Make sure all shampoo bottles are well secured please. I don't want any camp. That's all. That's the only thing I'm promising. >> And I'm going to give you my phone number. one digit off Rabbi show. >> Thank you, Mrs. >> Well, as always, we are so appreciative of the many, many people who have reached out and left voice messages and sent us emails because that really fuels this podcast. It fuels our ability to have a active conversation with parents about real issues. And I'd like to share once again our call-in number. It's 4436869339. You could call in and leave a question or a comment and we'll review and look through for interesting ideas. Again, that's 443-686-9339. Alternatively, you could send an email to the learning [email protected]. The learning [email protected]. We'd love to hear from you. Thank you for joining us on the Learning Curve podcast. >> Find more on this and other topics at mishbah.com.