S1 Eps 2. Let's Talk Gemara (Part 2) Feat. Rav Aaron Lopiansky

We do ourselves a disservice by making it two-dimensional. A Gammorra cup or not a GMAR cup. That's absurd. Said, I'm wondering if I made the right choice. I made a choice not to send him there for whatever reasons. And there are many reasons not to. And I'm wondering if it was the right choice because while I got him tutors and he's holding at a certain way going to the same yeshivas that you send your students too, but he's feeling very bad about himself. Welcome to the Learning Curve podcast brought to you by Mishbaha Magazine. >> We're raising children in a changing and challenging world. So let's tackle the important issues facing from families today. >> I'm Rabbi Rafael Garfield Manal of Yeshiva Torres MS in Houston and I love talking about >> I'm Rabbi Ari Shfeld Manal Ishiva Katana of Manhattan director of camp. I also love talking and sometimes fishing. >> Join us as we answer your questions and discuss the topics that matter to parents the most. Welcome back to another episode of the learning curve. Yes. Joined as always, we hope as always by Garfield as we navigate the waters, the wonderful messos, the sweet waters of today. We started a very interesting conversation last week which I hope to continue today about Kimarra and the role that Gamarra does play, should play, will play. We have an exciting episode and program planned. Garfield, welcome back. How was episode one for you? >> Oh my gosh, I could barely handle the fame. I didn't know that Mishbach had such amazing reach, but I can't get all out of my house in Houston, Texas without being asked questions. >> So, as we always do in the Learning Curve podcast, we begin with two smaller bites and emails and questions from parents and then a spotlight. Today's spotlight is going to continue from last time in the role of Gumar for the struggling kid. We have a couple of incredible people that res the interview that we'll speak about. But Garfield, I think the way this goes is you read me the first email and then you'll decide whether you like my answer. Hopefully you won't. It makes it for more fun. I'll read you the second and then we'll move on to our topic of the day. >> Here we go. Question number one to you, Rabbi Schfel. Thank you for your podcast and continue that. I wonder if either of you have an opinion on how to teach the age of the universe to a kid who keeps asking. My 12-year-old son is very into science and keep showing me books from real scientists that seem to say that the world is billions of years old. How do Yeshivas approach this issue? >> Very nice of you to ask me that question. I don't know why I got this one. We're clearly the scientist among us. >> Yes, my 12-year-old son is very into science. Well, I cannot relate to I cannot relate. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm reading back the email. My 12-year-old son is not very into science. I cannot I have a hard time relating to I'm just not a science person, but this is like a big shila probably a shar to maybe have a a d of how to approach this. I will say that I once heard the name of Rabakov Kamki that anything I think the was anything that your son will see on the front page of the New York Times or daughter you have an to speak about you can't just ignore now that was obviously when we read the New York Times no one today is reading the New York Times right so I do think the notion of just ignoring the ignoring the topic and saying all right my kid won't be exposed to this forget this 12-year-old who was very into science even the kid that's not very into science is going to grow up in a world that the assumption by science is that the world is billions of years old, right? And how do you teach? We start from mayor and our world is 5785, right? So you're going to hear an answer from me a lot and I think this is just basics. It depends on the age of the kid. For sure for a young kid it's 5785. And if an 8-year-old says but Rebby, so we have the Tyra, we don't have to worry about science. The Tyra is the MS and Ver. I don't think you approach this from an academic and intellectual conversation with an eight-year-old, nine-year-old kid. I will share that we don't have time because this is not the spotlight email, but I will just share that as an eighth grade rebi for 10 years, I learned this in class. I taught this in class. We had this suga. So of this kasha of this issue of the world that looks to be connected the tyra and our mess the synopsis and the quick answer is that it shouldn't scare you and I don't think it has to scare you there's a lot of approaches to match science with the Tyra and what I would tell a 13-year-old 14-year-old really curious kid who really cares it's like I'm reading science and it seems carbon dating is you know billions of years old I would tell him it's a fair And there's a lot of different answers that the maf5 starts and there are who destroyed many many worlds and therefore the world looks old. Then there's Mahal that the Mab dated the world. Then there's another mahal that maybe carbon dating is wrong. Right? Science has been wrong. Science has been wrong before. The most important to tell a kid is that we believe in if you believe in that everything we have is the MS. So it will work out. It will work out. The world looks a billion years old. There are many different Jerusalem to this kasha of why the world looks a billion years old. The sun was created on day four. So what was time before the sun? How is there a day before the sun brium is such a deep conversation that it's really something that shouldn't bother you to show the boy that there's different approaches that and I think to a teenager that's curious it shouldn't scare you to have this conversation >> is there a certain book that you use that we could give as a makum to parents who want to have a bro >> so there's some book rabbi miselman talks about I think the mob making a big difference I forgot the name of his book misman Yeah, toilet science >> like that right that book was written really as a response to another book which we're not going to discuss that is that is >> got to be books I'm just not holding >> some scientist whose name I think is Schroeder >> so he matches this very well that he even works within evolution >> that the world has no problem >> yes yes so I think it shouldn't I shouldn't scare you the sun shouldn't scare you to give different approaches >> I think the right the issue is a child asking versus proactively teaching it. Right? So I think that's where the rub is sometimes in the perspective is that if a child's science interested and asking you and knowledgeable and has half information for sure at that point we engage the child with this stuff. The question would be like an eighth grade class in let's say poseic where the children might not be asking the questions. I know that there's a discussion about bringing in hashkuffic questions. >> The kids that didn't have it >> the kids that didn't have it. Exactly. Because sometimes the questions are taka better than the answers. Let's be honest. Let's be fair. >> Yes. Yes. So I want to share that in my inic my eighth grade my eighth grade always. It was the type of culture that I thought these questions were 100% going to come up in their lives. So I wanted to teach it to them from the Torah perspective first. I'm not suggesting that every we don't do this in Katana and I'm not suggesting that you have to. I just think you should not be afraid of the question. I hope I addressed it enough to at least help a parent who has a kid with these questions. And you should not be afraid to have these conversations. >> Well said. And it sounds like you have real life experience with that, which is wonderful. So, >> yes, I have a sister-in-law who's a big scientist. She'll be very angry if I say those words, but she's a head of science in a girl school and she teaches this suga. She mame goes through this suga, you know, from a third perspective. So there are sources out there if that's you know you could be inclined to say no science is wrong and the Tyra the Tyra is against science but for >> I do think that there are there is a definitely a hashkafa that doesn't have to respond to science tora is Torah science is science and terra doesn't have to respond to science >> I think the problem with that is that kamaras are full of incorporating science of their time into the process you just started a conversation which we will not continue and that is what happens when you have science that seems to have science that is in congregate with today's science. Yeah. The but we're going to move on to the next topic. Garfield, you get the next question. Another I think delicate question that comes up and a serious one and that is the following. This person did not start off with wishing us. So I don't know we'll read it anyways. My daughter came home from school quoting her morra that all hate yen aba it's that of son asim what do you think the proper messaging to children should be on this topic I have my strong opinion but I'm afraid if I share it rabb what do you do with this suga of this issue of sonakov all gla hatos so there's my mora my rebi says that and you're manal what and maybe you have such a culture it's such a rule in Shiva. So I do in mine yours. >> Yeah, this is a very important question and I think it's very much dependent on the social place where it's going on meaning in in scare where all they interact with is hidden and each other. So I think it's easier to take a stand that gam more distant and more antagonistic and more other. But in a situation like ours in Houston where half our staff are non-Jews, the scafa that they secretly want to kill you might not be the most effective or appropriate message to be giving to children. >> You're being PC. Don't PC this. What's So >> I'm not being PC. I'm building it up. So what I'm saying is that in an environment where we interact with Gaim, live with GAM and depend on them, there are doctors, there are teachers, they come to our homes. I think taking a simplistic view that they all hate us is a scuffically unaccurate. There is an element of that obviously but it's not the entirety of the story and we have to be careful when communicating with children that we don't oversimplify a message that could have very negative results. I think again in a place where it's not nea where they don't interact with gyim let's say in orid so fine you know in a right-wing place where there are no guim around and they don't deal with gyim it's not as dysfunctional might not be ashkuffically valid but it's not as dysfunctional but when you go into a place where as soon as a teacher leaves a guy walks in and is left alone with these kids they say well they secretly hate you want to kill you well what are you supposed to do with that I think we have to be much more nuanced it reminds me of the idea that there's some garas that that help with this but I don't want to get too far a field but the idea is that you know once we appreciate humanity and tameloim and what and all that so once we appreciate all that then there is an element of eight but that's not the starting point of humanity you know it's not like a starts from zero and all they go is down towards eight you know gymarim there's a lot of goodness that could exist certainly in the you know we talk about the America being a place where Jews are welcomed in a way that we haven't historically. >> So, you know, there's a lot of balance that could be given to that surrogate. I think it has to be handled with great care. >> PC. If that was too PC, I look forward to hearing your very nonPC answer. Uh, RHA. >> So, here's my non-PC answer. So, I just want to add two points. my first week teaching in YBH my mana by barrel liner and I wrote it to the parents and I used the word go in the article and he told me to change it and he said you're starting out in was my first teaching in YBH use the word use the word non-Jew and again the word I know guy means nations of the world but there's a certain I don't know negative vibe that that you give off by using the word just so in terms of me being now PC I I I I always when I speak about the I speak about non-Jews and as opposed to but my feeling on this is something that I learned a long time ago about approaching kids and that is kids are black and white. They're not nuanced. Kids think in black and white until probably the after teenage years >> which is interesting by the way why we shouldn't start teaching Gammorra until later where those nuances and ideological nuances really are important. >> Oh, you're you're foreshadowing the upcoming. Very good. Very good. and ace of sunakab as you said there might be an element maybe this kina and of course there is anti-semitism we're living right we live in in a time that has unfortunately rampant anti-semitism but if you tell a kid as sonak you can't then explain to a kid that the security guard is going to risk the life of you we had last year when I spoke to my in my school about this last year and I remember spoke about it someone said something along these lines not a rebby someone in the school and I said we lived but we had a fire said we're all fine the son. There was literally a real fire in our school last year. And the custodians, the non-Jewish custodians and the security guards risked their lives to save the kids in the yeshiva. So you're going to tell kids really deep inside they hate you and yet I'm relying on them to save our lives. It's a dangerous and I think hashkuffically traced message to give to an 8-year-old kid that all hate y that as I yeah okay I'm not saying to be friends with your next neighbor. want we sayd every single we're above the messaging that the hate us as you said your doctors are going everything you the policemen are g security guards your social studies teacher your secretary deep inside they hate you I think that's horrible so >> well I'm a little confused how is what you're saying different than what I said >> you want to know why it's less PC >> yeah you said the same thing >> you said it was a lot of I must say but What's the difference? >> I wouldn't differentiate between if you're in you're saying that it's practically less detrimental. Okay. You I think the is an improper and what about the and of okay you can give shear on that. Yes, there's an element of s of not sorry of kina that exists in the ethos. But now what happens if a kid comes in home right? My son came home from the school. That wasn't the question. The question was what's your proper hashkafa? It doesn't like what do you do when the kid comes home telling it to shame the rebi? Well, that's a different time and that is what happens when the rebi says that's against my hashkafa. That's not what this email was. So, we're not going to answer that now. We'll save that for some email next time or call the next time. But that's my >> Okay, wonderful. I think we reasonably agree on that. But and now we're going to continue a very important discussion that we started last week about the role of GMO learning for our boys and what happens when the things don't go so easily. We're excited to introduce two wonderful guests who are going to talk about it and help us unpack this very important topic. So it is our pleasure now to have with us Rabbi Lapanskitoanski is the Rashashiba Misha greater Washington a tremendous source of for yeshivists at large and recently has published twoarim even though they're in English I think they have earned the title of the ter life is for the fellow left yeshiva and his role in this and most recently has just published a safer called ben yeshiva which talks to the boy in yeshiva and really so this dichotomy of the yeshiva the boy who wants to thrive and strive for greatness in Limarra and then for the people that need something outside the blood is really whatanski has reached a lot of people and resonated and so it is to have rebel with us >> thank you it's wonderful to be with you together I know both of you going back quite a while and it's very special. >> So let's just jump right in and really just maybe reiterating my introduction and that is that we we meaning manal rebim and parents we have two different types of kids in our homes. We have the kid who just takes to go you know like a fish in water and just absolutely loves it. This year we started Misha just started gamarra in fifth grade this year and there are certain kids that their lives overnight changed because they tasted the msikas of a blad gamarra and they just they got hooked and then there are boys that are unbelievable boys and yet they struggle with the blatam. So how do we tell both of these boys that you are equally in the eyes of Hashem that there is a role in a place in our not just society but in our system ofting for you. >> So the truth is you have this awful lot that you've packed into what you said that I think needs to be passed nanced. First of all, it does say for and I've been in yeshiva all my life between learning between teaching and there is something at 15 very different than earlier. So you can have right gifted kids who do amazingly well earlier. The real glint of Havana I can hear the a brilliant 30-year-old says at his mitzvah is a beautifully executed. You don't feel that glint of recognition and understanding at 15 in a classroom. The gap between the best baka and the weakest baka is immense. At 22 23 it narrows. A maturity is a certain way of developing a mind. So different minds develop differently. Once you've developed to some degree in learning you can fit in with other people. So, we do ourselves a disservice by making it two-dimensional. A Gamarra Cup or not a Gamarra Cup. That's absurd. Anyone who's been at I mean I've seen myself on again and again the age makes a big difference and then how much background you have. So just telling a kid you're not suic and telling him tough luck is also a problem because for us 5 years is not all that long. It's long but not all that long. For a boy who's 10 years old five is like 60 years. It's half of a lifetime. So to tell him in 5 years something is going to go well is not a very very satisfying comfort. On the other hand if a boy like that were to keep learning Mishnay a lot more go slower and if they have yeshivas with thousands of kids and we could make different approaches and that would allow for that difference. For some kids learning Mishn are compact clear facts and if he knows well when he starts doing it it's certainly be easier I believe according to allas he gets for learning I don't believe they have like a section for gmorra learners a section for people who learnish and other things and of course the section is this this section but other than that it's not like that and the problem is it's a vicious cycle we don't have any other educational models We the parents always want the kids to be the olive track because that way he'll be able to get into the right which means he get right brisk the right the right brisk and do the right and the right should and so on. It's silly because if a kid is happy and learning well whether he's learning well this or that the other thing two the same thing is true even with Elon there are some buff who do well with learning it's very difficult to think that you're if you know backwards and forwards and you don't know the lumbus lumbus So we also could gear. So when you're yeshiva like you know you have these day schools I'm regardful you're out in Houston you have one day school that's meant to service everyone the smaller schools you can have 100 kids you can have 200 kids it's hard to have six tracks when you have 12 kids in the class when you have a few thousand kids learning more someone told me I was just speaking a week ago I was at a literally a week ago and aid ali he's sure a lot of places and told me that when he was a young baka he came went to B Yakov he couldn't get information's lumbus you know Shapiro was in very deep london he didn't take to it and I think he went to ask what to do said go to learn asked my son what to do or some learn came in and he told about 1960s and the 60s is getting 70ski told and that's what did and a lot of times people develop. So even if they would just know it, somebody was once told oversh and he was kind of making fun a little bit of it something like that that he said this and gave a very sharp look and said you know to do that you have no shots at your fingertips. It's not a you know what you laughing what are you laughing so I think that many more boys would do well in the learning track if we were able to starting gar a year or two later for many kids would be a hot solo having a track where they learn more style for the younger years would be a hot solo for some more kids it's where everything is only so it appeals to a certain type of ba and it's different types of points and I think that should be something that we really need to tackle from the top. We need to create the tracks and convince parents that the best learning for your child is whatever he's going to thrive in whatever learning thrive. There seems to be a sentiment and I'd like to address it either confirm it or explain why it might not be the case that we need to create structure for every kid to stag at the highest levels of scholarship. And if we set the standard high and have high expectations for everyone, sort of like a type of a thing, then there's a chance that we'll be producing greatness. But if we start to already at a young age limit the potential and say, okay, you'll be a like but if you become more of aid, so we're cutting off the potential of the great lambd of the future, etc. And we need to inami some might suffer. We need to provide this opportunity. >> So if I can reflect your words back again until 200 years ago we had zero only when Grisker was born that's produced it. I mean I don't say that it's like if we really meant is that how did learn again this told him he doesn't like the snap what he should do. I don't remember exact but asked him can you learn on your own said learning is and that's the way it was I mean you know go to the other side one of my uncle should be well the last living like you know they have their world but he said that has No, no, no. What kind of bat you'll tell me is the how do you say that? I mean I didn't I was so I'm gonna share something with the rashiva you might not know. Okay. >> Yeah. Every mainstream high school in America MFA that was opened by the Russas. These yeshivas weren't developed some guy in Houston. These are developed from the Russivas and however they were all developed in America. And this isn't accepted in any strong yeshiva. It's lumbus from the day you walk in the place. >> And therefore, if I could just add that reality >> and I was an eighth grade rebi for a long time. And >> the parents would complain to me at parent teacher orientation. Heyfeld, you're not teaching enough. You're not teaching enough ni. You're not teaching enough halaf. And my response was always the same. And I would say to them, I'm willing to have a hashkafic debate with you and maybe I'll agree with most of your points about the value of all of these other lemmudin. However, my job is I have a onetrick pony. Get your son into the best ma possible. And here's the reality. And this comes from whether your son goes to Philly, you know, the slamits and >> pington. The fahare for high school is 100% and 0%. So >> and there's no shish in it, right? There's no in it. So it's a very nice to wish for, but are we doomed? In other words, I won't make sense. So am I doomed? >> I'm saying even more. Those yeshivas were set up by our rashivas. They're not accidents. So first of all when you're bringing a martial from Lake Travar there was no so it was hashem in the sense there was zero come out of America and producing the future of soas was his mission but he sent out to teach different cities. So what that there needed to be a yeshiva the full sense of the word with the capital y what was called yeshiv the highest that needed to be music but now does have to teach everybody and if what I'm teaching the talid is not learning it and it's just basically drawing away from it so I mean I don't want to say about what it says about am I tell you I want to tell you to me the The deus of a me of ish of a kadesh was Abz Lepstein. Absin was a rebi of mine in RJ I had in 11th grade 12th grade and in K. So he was a shim lea. He was one of the most emistic sadikim and wisest people I met. A huge and his washat real. Now once each year he said over and that was so we used to ask we were like is this we were drink you know these were kids we had discuss it he used to smile everybody say next year if you stay you'll hear a lot of what does Rashi say what does mean what's the come to answer why couldn't say differently that was it >> he wouldn't get a job today he wouldn't get a today with that >> as he would get a tired he went to he came to s the age of 70 or so and basically more 70 his idea was that he's going to sit and repair you know rebinberg was his neighbor from way back when and they were ways about it he became masher until he was at the age of about 100 you know whatever so after he was nifa they were writing up stuff about him I spoke to a person I just they were right I marked on this point that the sim was said so what are you talking about it said over sub always and then I helped yes he took a look at the class the class are American kids they're 11th greatest if they're not going to know with the cashes into they are not going to they will fail they'll talk big but they'll fail my job is a I'm a so I'm teaching he came to there he was there and so for them this is what he's supposed to Dude, somebody once said false, the one who was so there was a big set up. This was in the middle of the lame giml those years from older shashas of Shak and everybody that you have to learn much more quickly a sha dollar should cover at least about a week and then this I don't remember whatever was it was a had a obviously it was widely disregarded. So told me and we walked out of Spanish look at it and I look at it he said what's the difference between us and the m he said they believe that understand a lot about but nothing about milma we as understand but don't know anything about learning used to get up to hey in one's mind I learned it's all day. I remember I asked you I wanted to learn the whole day and he told me held this way but said not to right so I think didn't understand what to start you're learning and he was he fredded he wanted to go but so that was that new learned everything my was extremely pushed very hard so at the end of the day so someone come and say that this is look at the growth Look at there's no no it's one thing when a person tells me this is this what I like fine that's but to tell me that if I teach a kid and especially I'm talking about I believe that if at the younger ages he's able to understand it and enjoy it his mind will mature it'll develop as much as he can and do that is doing anything more than just bemoning the state of the derakim in mainstream yeshiva You know what? I'm not bemoning the state of the the very big people who are very doing their thing, but there should be other Yeshiva is learning with kids. They should decide what is it that will do. And I believe the specific type of Ian that we've developed believing that it's good for a kid of any age is really fitting. It's like somebody saying the best size shoe is a 10 and a half double width gazelle. And so for the guy that fits, it's amazing. For everyone else, it's either that's washing around or they're walking around with blisters. Understanding that this is not it's not it's not the only Tyra. I can tolerate many different types. But when you tell me this is the only der and anything else is not terra and it's not good for the kid not bring out the best in the kid. You both obey him. You both have kids going through a system. Tell me is this I'm not talking about for the other kid it's good enough he could be a sh I'm talking about learning but I'll be honest I don't have the luxury to ask that question. I really don't. We're in elementary school was saying we have to get our kids ready for the system with a very specific expectation. And who am I? If let's say I decided a kid and let's take this conversation to the next schlav which is okay but the system is what it is right we're here and now parents the reality is that if a kid is not muggle for those type of things it's either they're going to go to yeshiva and be exposed to things that they shouldn't be >> or they're just going to drop out because they're getting nothing from our system and what do you have to the seventh and eighth grade parent who just doesn't it's just not going and the kid's not >> so if one person develops the yeshiva with a certain sewer then pushing a parent saying your kid will do much better he'll be much happier there would say to this a seventh grade mother who her son just became bar mitzvah he's a nice kid he's a good ball player and he sings wellid machine and whether he has dyslexia or he has a learning challenge or ADD and she says Rashiva he's miserable because he knows that in his yeshiva he knows what the currency is and these could be in any yes yeshiva and from Lakewood to Houston to Manhattan to Brooklyn to Baltimore and he's miserable cuz his redie loves him but lame messa what am I supposed to do with him how do I convince him that there's a mug for him so even if you have a bayim who are able to appreciate kids for what they are so forget about the system hopefully there'll be many different flowering of terra mahalim everything is an uphill battle but the day somebody produces a yeshiva that fits a certain type of baka and produces real it will begin people will realize it's the many different suras but at least if a rebi appreciates somebody and treats the person as a person I appreciate your desire to do well I appreciate what you do for other people I appreciate your and they're able to show that they when I was a buffer they used to say that everybody's u this is guy's gar this guy's a in helping people this guy's an in figuring out things for people say but everybody's I used to call him my I never was part of Egyp. But the idea where Arabic is to and is able to give him a genuine sense of cover that he deserves for who he is and what he struggles with and he doesn't equate the struggle with the person then that is at least a big step forward. You have to find a rebi that says that if you can't say then you're not a person that if he says it whether he says it that is poison for the kid because you're destroying a kid but if a rebi has what it takes to be able to and again going back to zel he treated over there the challenges a lot more kids all sorts of different types of kids from backgrounds and he was able to establish each one in his structure is he doing well in his msas or not >> one of the things that dabbling with inhibi we haven't implemented yet and I this is my brainstorm or hope and I spoke to you about it is that our report cards should expand gradewise in other words right now report cards are there's the right side of the page for hopefully and the left side of the page is behavior play and it's all just letters the words o and parents you make sure there's no minuses on the left side or n i's the right side is really what you're looking at and if we gave grades aliths to recess to coming on time to so that a boy who struggles in Gmorrah but still is able to see olives. It shows a little bit of a shift in our >> I don't know I've been long out of passion my grandchildren but even writing us with the final I think they do it to write in about the certain at the end of the year who you are what you are as a person and the areas that you're working on and things just to show it's a complete source of them and what the person has done well and what he's talking it's I think that might be helpful of course but also I would say another thing His complimenting a baka was a sort of what's it? It was a ratio of what he he did or said or knew to what he could know and could said. A very bright bubble sitting learning said this that good. Somebody who was hard he would say they are good. I won't tell even who was colder. I used to talk to him a lot in learning. He was very approachable and he would listen incredibly learning was incredible. He was there always available always willing to listen, understood in a second what you wanted and reacted. His reaction many times was built on the person. If somebody that was a intermediate but working hard to try to understand would say something's face and say oh I see a tapping on a you're trying to say this and he would try to build up what the bach was saying if a was a big bish and said something off the top of his head he would say that's not where you learn it it's nothing he had a sensitivity how worked out it was did the person work through and work it out he reacted as I got older and I understood more and more his reaction had a lot to do. It heard it all. He could have heard the same swear a thousand times and each time he would greet it with a new thing and he would react for that this was his final accomplishment. He would say and someone else would a like his reaction had a lot to do with the and that's the say to it >> the shashiva think just came out with a say for Ben yes which is for that 10th and 11th grader it's that really to try to give a to not and very she is very mbbit and careful in the safer to write this is not against but it's really to give almost to summarize in a coherent way what it is you're trying to do in yeshiva >> the first safer Maybe the sequel to this the bentur for life does hear this point that people say that safer was directed I don't know purposely that safer was really directed at that balabas who is the topic of this conversation he went through yeshiva and he didn't feel his calling because he wasn't that learning no the balbust that's still giving shirum at night and is learning three hours a day that I is okay. But has Rashiva heard that the success the life is gof is because as we say we're struggling to find a larger system to speak to our >> so I think yes and it's very tricky I'll try to be normal about and I wrote this point I think I wrote in the first one every person has a sh that's a beter everyone who's a ter in other words like Kufha should be an extremely rich and intense spiritual experience. It should have zero to do with what's going to happen later. But I need to close my eyes and think back sitting in Mashiva when working out in Babakama was my entire world. That's a point of reference to myself as a person gets older. So just like we begin to move on simply first thing is we get married that already is a step out of his Benazi didn't get married but was his wife 99.999% nobody thinks that he's a failure because he got married I hope not so we're not Benazai we're not fine we then have kids we then have to interact with the world we pay an electric bill we have to money has to come from someplace we cash a check dating myself that people had checks and they cashed them. But we're part of that work. Some people find it many people statistically 89% of the people find it due to either financial or just emotional reasons their next step is to be it's and therefore the point is the is meant to find a place in some sort of but it should always be seen as a branch of that sherish as opposed to putting one thing behind me and I'll move on to the second one. That's the point tried to make. So this point is trying to hammer home more how does one build his self in yeshiva and like I said a rebi is going to be the most important person in a child's life because the rebi really knows the child. No two children are alike. The the let's call him and two he's a rabbi. He's a mah. But at least it allows it's like when you go to a doctor and you're totally ignorant and you say my tummy hurts. So my tummy hurts is a is a description. You feel like but which part of your tummy includes everything between the hands and feet. What do you mean by hurt? What type of pain is it? When does it happen? What happened before? Having an intelligent structure allows you to pinpoint what exactly I'm told. What does it mean? What I hope is accomplished by that is to give a general structure that should be shovelish and then you understand first of all what are you doing and why are you doing this what's the point of it to touch on things that are being didn't happen to speak about because generally speaking a rebi talks about the topics that are most relevant the things that are happening but to get a bigger picture and it's much easier to handle the bigger picture than to deal spot by spot point by point >> wonderful it's such such a present a gift that you've given to our community to have these slur and >> I don't think people even begin to understand how unnatural a kufura in my days nobody learned if a buck went to lake court he wouldn't tell anybody because he was embarrassed it was like so what are you doing mitzah teacher I don't think people don't even begin to understand the n that happened and that's why yes we always have to keep on asking ourselves what do we do now how do we fit it and so on but The idea that this became that everybody wants their kid to learn of and this is to be the base London. I don't think anybody would have believed it. So the proportion rescue proportion it's a nace it's a nace nigler what the happened but that doesn't free us. We're not until the whistle doesn't blow whistle there's always going to be a challenge for the next generation next generation. Our challenge now is to be able to take that the drive that understands that is the most and apply it to each person as is what's his realistic world what's his world what's his real world in ter was done by people in America Ireland and all of us but we need to do this we need to work next generation Mr. Amen. Thank you so much for spending time with us and I'm looking forward to seeing your new safer. >> Thank you so much. Thank you for joining. >> Welcome to a very special man Rabbi Jacob Openen who is currently the student support coordinator and the English principal at Yeshiva Bas Mikra. Prior he was the principal at Bahin which is a community research room in Muny who comes with 30 years of experience. We're so happy to have you open. I've known you for a while and I find you to be a loving, caring mechanic as all should be. You have a special and a deep love for your students, which is exactly what is needed when dealing with students who learn differently. Welcome, Rabbi. Open. >> Thank you, Rabbi Garfield. It's always a pleasure and a joy to spend time with you. Something I look forward to doing and don't get to do enough. Happy to be here. >> Thank you. What we want to discuss is that struggling middle school student who doesn't connect with Gammorra. And I would ask you, Rabbi Opin, are there kids that gamura is just not their thing? That they're just not gamorra kids? >> I don't even understand the question. What do you mean by that? >> Kids who gamarra is just they're not cut out for garam kesh. They can't do it. >> And therefore, I'm I don't even know where you're going with this. Okay, we will try this one more time. I was trying to prod the tiger a little, but that didn't work. Okay, I'll try again. Let me ask more of a pract question. What do we do? >> Let me go back and address that. There's a famous story with Raana and he saw that or he thought he was a and he sat down and he couldn't even bench and he told him to say something that was not so nice and the guy said you're a thief. is it doesn't say it says which means that is for everyone just with some people need a different approach and a different way of getting there. How can we even begin to believe that there are people who quote unquote are not cut out for Gomorrah? Does it mean that they are going to have our time in our system? Sure, our system is not the way gave the arc. We have a school system, but the school system was created to deal with the children who were less advantaged. And unfortunately if our system itself is creating disadvantages so we need to figure out solutions to that. That is why a school system was put in place. But every child has a inra and tyra includes gumra learning. So to say a child is not cut out I'll tell you something very there's a person here in my give too many details. He's a very respected balabos. He's a huge Talmud. He sits and learns constantly. He still cannot read. He listens to audio. He's gone through. He learns. He is respected. But he figured out how to make Gar a part of his life in a very big way. Make it through school probably. >> As you said that the system might not work in its natural form or its typical form for these type of boys. in your experience in Bah now in B mikra. So you have that boy who's in sixth grade who as of today struggles and I we know word struggles is a very big word it could go in any directions. So what is your approach? What should be our approach with the rebi with the mother with the father to help that boy who right now sees go as Chinese maybe has a language processing disorder maybe has anxiety maybe. So what can we do to hold his hand to get him to see the mikos satyra? So that's a very detailed question. There are a few different levels and factors both in what you're describing and in the question because you ended the question about you began with struggling and ended with Msika Satyra. So let's just look at that whole spectrum. >> Okay. >> First of all, every child should be struggling in school to some level. A child who's not struggling in school means he's not growing. And if he's not growing, he's not gaining and he's not feeling sat either. He's just coasting. And then he's probably going to be one of those huge statistics of kids who crash when they get to 9th, 10th grade because they haven't been used to having to work to be successful. So struggle is not a bad thing. Struggles that defeat a child, struggles that are endless is a bad thing. Migos satro is a concept and a term that we would love children to get to. There are many grown-ups who still struggle with that and not necessarily is directly connected to their level of learning or where they are. Miko Satire is not necessarily connected to being an olive student. There are many factors that go into MSO satire and it's a beautiful area to explore. But in the world of struggling students or in the world of students who can be doing more, who need extra help or where parents are going to be concerned, schools are going to be concerned, you're jumping straight to the reddest of the red zone. The child who has, as the Raim liked to say, no shy to the class, doesn't even belong there. I don't know what he's doing over here. There's nothing I can do for him in the class. And the reality is that there are children, like you said, for a host of reasons. It can be a language processing issue. It can be many other things that are getting in their way of being able to make that jump to Gamarra. And again, another aspect of the question is a lot of yeshivas we really introduced Gamarra at a time that developmentally children are not really ready for it. Gammorra was not supposed to be introduced at such a young age. Most yeshivas because of whatever societal communal pressures begin it at an age that is questionable whether that is the best choice from a purely learning developmental look. I'm not saying it's the wrong thing. I'm sure I'm sure there's reasons why the yeshivas do what they do and have the system that they have. But if you look at it from purely a cognitive developmental outlook, the cognitive demands of learning Gmorrah and the change that comes into Gammorra from Mishnay and from Kish and what they're up to is a huge jump that we don't always do enough to prepare them for and we have many children that fall off on the wayside because they're not ready to make that leap yet. Just to push perhiva of Farakawi told a friend of mine that if it was up to him he would start kamar in second grade and he said that maybe not but he said that the data has shown that the best time to learn a new language is up until the age of nine. So he said why don't we teach them shasim and I think there are shishas that do this in second grade they should learn all the way till fifth. So when they get to fifth grade, they already know Kashm interesting. >> I hear that. It's interesting. And again, it goes into the question, I'm not any way going to argue with Rabbi Pere. He is a person who is allowed to have that type of entitled to much more than I would argue. But the Gammorra language is one piece of the puzzle. And it's true, it's an important piece, and it would be a good idea to introduce those things. But when we talk about the complexity of Gomorra, we're talking about a lot more than just the words and the fact that it's a somewhat Aramaic language and the language piece. When we talk about language difficulties in Gmorra, we're dealing with language comprehension and language pragmatics much more than just language as in a foreign language. Rabbi, open Rabbi Pere, nonwithstanding, when would you think the ideal educational timeline would be to introduce Gamarra? >> I'm not even going there. Sorry, >> that's a nth grade question. >> Yeah. No. Okay. Not for the record. I'm just curious. Seventh grade, eighth grade. What do you >> I'm not into wholesale change. I'm just saying that it poses problems that may not necessarily have to have been a problem if we were really believing in Pedarco, if we really followed a developmental process in introducing things, there used to be many yeshivas that started in sixth grade. I'll give you an example. Yeshiva Katana of Manhattan. >> I'm smiling. >> I don't know if they still do that or not, but they had a very interesting fifth grade. And Rab Zelman is still there. Rabi Mandel believed very strongly and for a lot of good reasons that Rashi on a deep level in Basak we started at sixth grade and we've had a lot of discussions about doing something at the end of fifth grade so at least when they go to camp in the summer it's not total Chinese to them they've seen it it's a problem it's a problem that's why I'm not going there it's not a fair question to answer because it's not a decision that's based on education it's based on many other factors >> when you're looking at the question of that very small percentage of children who even with a tutor, with modifications, with working with the child, with working with the rebby, you're still not going to be able to get them on board. So, that needs a very individual approach. It doesn't mean that it can't be done. It just means it can't really be done successfully in the classroom, which is a problem because being successful in the classroom is critical to a child's development. But yes, are there children, getting back to your original question, who quote unquote are not cut out from Gomorrah? If you want to rephrase the question and say, are there children who are not going to be able to learn Gamarra in our standard school system and are going to be late bloomers, pick it up later, or are going to need a one-on-one way of learning Gammorra in order to be able to learn Gamarra? There are those. They are few and far between. There's a lot that can be done to bring a lot more children out of that hole at an earlier stage and throughout so we don't have that many there but sure that does exist to say that they're not cut out from Gomorra. So the only question I would have and I do want to hear some specific examples of ways in which we as rebim and parents can help but if I don't have a math head and there's such a thing as not having a math head that even if you give me a tutor and you break it down into smaller pieces of math and I have visuals it will never be something that I feel pride in if that is the pride of the community in which I live. Even if we can support the bottom third bottom 40% with tutors with more interesting gamaras with help at night the mitsuses and the reality is that they are in a system in which gives pride and joy as we should I think to the to and it isn't with all the help that we give them something that they inherently can connect to on a high level and that isn't going to be necessarily their track of. So we're still forcing a circle into a square that we've created. Is that not true? >> It's true that you cannot in our society, not just in our society, in the Jewish society, maybe back in the you can have people that came today people that listen to learn midrashim said to heal them all day. There was a tremendous shine. But you're right. In our world where so much of it depends on learning and learning equals Gammorra, that has to be part of a person's life. That's why I was had a hard time understanding the question because to take that away from somebody is to take away their entire connection. I'm going to I know I'm going to go long. Cut me off, but there are a few parts to that question that you asked when we're looking at a child like this. First of all, let me take one example and use that as a springboard. Really, he'll answer some of the previous questions as well. There are some children that need to learn in a different way and need the learning to be done differently in order to give them that satire. I think it was Steyman or somebody big who said that the children who don't have a joy in their learning are because they have a tremendous lack of clarity in their learning. What gives people the secret Santa is clarity in learning and it definitely is a critical element in there. I once had a Balabos who was asking me to learn with him and I said I can learn with you in two different ways. I can teach you how to learn Gamarra with an art scroll or I can teach you how to learn Gamarra. It's two different methodologies. You can be taught how to learn Gamarra with an art scroll even if you don't know how to learn Gumarra itself. You can learn Gamarra today on YouTube with plenty of Shirum. Let me give you an example. There was a guy giving a lecture on he was giving a I think for one of the presentations we were doing a big expert in Lakewood on teaching ma bahim who have difficulties and one of the things he was talking about is taich words and the language and he was not a fan of putting the taich words on top of the word in the gummor. He said they should either have it on the side or even better yet in a separate notebook. Now, if any of you have had children going through bonav or bahar, your program, they are very into loading up your gar with everything, notes on the side, words on top, having it all there. Now, they do require you to then do your fourth review without that. But they're very into that. So, is it a contradiction? It's not a contradiction at all. They're coming at it from two different perspectives. This rabbi in Lakewood, his mumus is teaching Bakram how to learn Gmorrah. If you want children to develop that ability, the knowledge, the vocabulary words, putting it on top of the words so they have it there in front of them with that level of ease is a crutch that is going to hinder them and not allow them to develop it smoothly. And therefore, putting it on the side where it's one step removed where they have to think about it, they write it down, they have to actually use their brain, it doesn't come right away, is going to help build it in and entrench it in their memory and build that in. Bahar is not looking to build a learner. Bahar is looking to develop my satra. They want you to kazer and kazer and therefore they want to take away any impediment to your being able to smoothly come home from the ski trip and you're about to fall into bed and say no I got to do my khazar. Got to do my omelet. Got to do my block and get out there and do it with nothing getting in your way. So let's take everything away. Put the little footnotes on the side. Make sure you understood it clearly. Let's review it. let's get it so you can fly through it and that gives you that messy. They're both correct. It depends what your ultimate goal is. But depending on where a child is in the spectrum, you will have children who need a different way of learning in order for them to have a yad and a connection to the gumaro that's being learned. Whether being learned in class or not is a good question. >> Bin, how has our system changed over the last, let's say, 10 years to adapt to these kind of kids? And what kind of change do you see developing in the next 10 years? >> So that's a very good question and I can't say I've been in all the schools and can answer that question. I'll tell you what I'm seeing though. Rabium have become much more sophisticated. I think in general ram besides being more open to hearing it themselves come with a lot more bring a lot more to the table. They understand that they need to have a lot more going on in the classroom in order to bring in more students. So yeah, I can give you a list of things that a Rebei can do. Whether it's using visuals, whether it's pacing, whether it's queuing them in, whether it's breaking it up into incremental steps, whether it's giving the steps name, how they use the words in the class, preloading the gammora terms, maybe not in second grade like you mentioned beforehand, but definitely ahead of when you're about to hit that suga, making sure that the context and the background is there. Rabbim today, especially in your Gomorrah years, are much more skillful and knowledgeable and I hate using this word professional in a certain way, but educated and open to hearing suggestions about making the class a class that's much more accessible to more of the talidum in the class. So, I think that's a change that you've seen. At the same time, we're seeing children's needs grow. Their attention span is less. their ability to sit and work through a problem is less. Everybody needs it to just be there because our brains are trained that everything is given to us. But the amount of visual information we have in this world, it's destroying that ability to sit down and actually envision things yourself, make the connections yourself. So, I think we're going to have to go in two directions in the future. one is recognize that's the reality of our children but two not feed it but try to push back a little bit and challenge them to do things where they have to finish the thinking on their own and pull things together on their own but it has to be balanced so where certain things used to be assumed in the past I think teaching study skills is critical teaching kids how to learn with the fab these are critical skills that need to become part of the landscape Cape of a classroom going forward. >> I'm open. Do you have talim that you can think back on that when you had them in Bak maybe in Bismar and other places in sixth grade, seventh grade, the prospect of them being able to sit down and read a garra independently on their own would most people would be considered total blasphemy. And now you have a career for them to be 25 married in Kyo, right? Is that something that a parent can strive for and realistically or is of course we all know all the stories but that's an unfair goal to give a parent. >> I want to just move the timeline and then say it's an unfair thing to tell a parent. There are yeshivas in Israel and in America that are dealing with buffer who did not make it through the system for whatever reason. They fell off the map. They went through their own journey. They never got their crea. They never got it. They didn't enjoy it. They had a rebby who said something not nice to them in sixth grade and because of that. Whatever the reason is, I don't really care. There are yeshivas that are doing a tremendous job of taking 16year-old 18y olds who can hardly read a piece of gum or like a fifth grader and five years later they're sitting in the mirror. They're sitting in BMG. They're learning. Some of them are even becoming ramim and raim for those type of brim and those yeshivas and other yeshivas. It's amazing because sometimes the motivation, the deep motivation that's necessary for a child to deal with an area that is frustrating, humiliating, and extremely painful isn't there until later on. And when they're ready for item, we have yeshivas that are standing there ready to answer that call. And the fact that they can do it at that age just proves that there is no one who cannot do it at some level. Just look at the reality. The reality is that it's being done and it's being done in an amazing way. Can we bring some of that back down? Can we open up some middle school sixth, seventh and eighth graders or some yeshiva used to have machina programs that are going to take a different approach to some of these children and make it politically okay and not a stigma that people are going to be afraid to send children to such schools because of what it's going to do for their sister shufim maybe we'll reach that point maybe that should be something that should be thought about in the meantime I think raim are doing what they can schools are trying to be attentive and we're reaching more I wish we can reach even more and some of them right now have to wait until they're ready for it. But Barashem, there are many missifas out there as long as parents are willing to do it. I used to tell parents all the time when they would come to B and their big question always was what can he do after 8th grade? What Mifa do you send them to? And I would tell them we don't look at success in 8th grade. At eighth grade, we want them ready to continue to miss that's going to continue working with them. And Barak Hashem, that was the biggest success we had over there. There was once a parent who came back years later, he wanted the manal to look at his child and see where he's holding in 8th grade and advised him into. And after the manal sat down with the father and was talking to him, the father was a little bit distraught. Not distraught, but he was concerned. He said, "What's on your mind?" He said, "I'm wondering if I made the right choice. I made a choice not to send him there for whatever reasons and there are many reasons not to and I'm wondering if it was the right choice because while I got him tutors and he's holding at a certain way going to the same yeshivas that you send your students to but he's feeling very bad about himself he's not excited about learning he doesn't enjoy Yiddishai he's always been the bottom of the class the guy who was the problem that needed to be solved whereas I'm walking into your eighth grade and your boys are on the same level perhaps but they're going to yeshiva excited they love learning. They love Davin. They love yiskite. They have no issue. Yes, they still need more finishing and more polishing when it comes to the learning. But their inside is much more intact. And I think that is for these children that is a key element. We can't make it all about being a problem that needs to be solved because your ka is not in place. So therefore, let's take you out of Gomorra, take you out of class, take you out of this, and constantly try to fix the problem that's you and not find ways to make the child shine in the learning in the classroom. >> I'm so happy that we have so many listeners so that your fame and appreciation will finally be seen for what it is. Okay, open. Our final question for you is if you were talking to a sixth grader who's struggling, a seventh grader who gets 40s and 50s on the test and he comes home and they try and it's just hard. This is not a kid who can't make it one day. Maybe he'll mature, maybe he'll fall into it, but right now he's struggling. So, what words would you advise parents or you yourself to say to this parent and to this child as we end this podcast? What words would you say, words of encouragement or direction directly to this situation? I can't answer that question the way you asked it. There's so many things wrong with that picture. It's not a situation that should be allowed to continue. Why should a child be getting 40s on tests on a steady basis? What's wrong with that picture? There's so much that can be done before you bring in big guns and do evaluations and all that sort of stuff. You don't have a child come to school knowing that he's going to have a year of getting 40s on tests. There's things that need to be done just to write that picture. However, I'll tell you a story to answer your question in the global way. I once took the eighth grade to Baltimore and we went there for a long weekend. We went to Washington DC. That was eighth grade trip. And when we were in the yeshiva there, we had a breakfast and then we had a meeting with the Mashia River Weissber. And at the end of his he spoke very nicely. One of the boys very gutsy said he was talking about of learning and Tyra. He said the bottom line that I still hate it. I don't get any joy from it at all. It's hard. It's tedious and I don't get any of this stuff you're talking about. >> He did not give him just a bad answer. Oh, you have to and you learn and the and you the world would be on it. He spoke to him so beautifully and to the whole class about how beloved it is to when a person pushes himself to learn and to do things even when he's not getting that huge. How easy it is for people who have that gishmak to do mitzvah and learn and how beloved it is to that you push yourself and you try and you keep on trying. It was a tremendous physic and it was a tremendous refreshingly honest answer to that child. So what would I tell this child? First of all, I would try to find where his strengths are and try to figure out what we can do to make his life in school much more tenable. Second of all, I would talk to them about how different people have different strengths and how different people excel in different areas and how different people bloom at different times and how people have what to give and what to share and what to be and their value is not relative to a test score on a gamura in seventh grade and how very often the children that are successful in the younger grades are not the ones that are most successful in life later on. And now there are many currencies that don't play a role in the younger grades that later on in life make a huge different in people's lives. Friendship niceole responsibility being a mench davening caring. When we get older being a good basketball player and even being the best in learning play very little in our decision of who we want to carpool with, who we want to be neighbors with, who we want our children to be friends with, who we want to do with. There are a lot of currencies that are very devalued in a middle schooler's life that become extremely important later on and every child needs to understand that especially a child who is lacking in the currencies that are so important in middle school. Is it an easy conversation? Do they always get it? No. That's why I'm saying it's not fair to a child that we can't find areas in which they shine now and make them feel that coming to school is a place where they can be part of the learning environment. But on a deeper level, that's what I would talk to him about and try to explain to him. >> Rabbi open, thank you for supplying us with some satra and we appreciate you joining and your continued sat. >> Thank you and may you both continuing success in your wonderful institutions and all the people that you impact. So this is a wonderful conversation and as we always say we appreciate our listeners being in touch with us and reacting and sharing thoughts and insights. You could call us in our call-in number and leave a message 4436869339. Again, the call-in number to leave a voice message that we could listen to and perhaps even play on our show is 4436869339. Or send us an email to the learning [email protected]. That's the learning [email protected]. And we look forward to getting some of your messages and discussing them live here on the show. Thank you for joining us on the Learning Curve podcast. Find more on this and other topics at mishbah.com.