S1 Eps 1. Let's Talk Gemara (Part 1)

Rabbi Shfeld, I wonder, have you ever been accused falsely when you were a child and how that felt? >> Most of the times I was accused it wasn't falsely. >> That's what I figured. >> Many Balabatans send their sons and daughters to yeshivas that push for the long-term cuddle lifestyle while the parents themselves do not want that way of life for their children. Welcome to the Learning Curve podcast brought to you by Mishbaha Magazine. We're raising children in a changing and challenging world. >> So let's tackle the important issues facing from families today. >> I'm Rabbi Rafael Garfield Manal of Yeshiva Torres MS in Houston and I love talking about kov. >> I'm Rabbi Ari Shfeld Manalsha Katana of Manhattan, director of camp. I also love talking and sometimes fishing. >> Join us as we answer your questions and discuss the topics that matter to parents the most. Hello and welcome to the learning curve a podcast that will be discussing real conversations on real topics. Shalom. My name is Ari Shfeld. I am currently the man at Nishid Katana Manhattan. The director of camp in Woodburn, New York. Maybe some of you remember me from Nightser America, a Barashem quite successful program that was run during the throws of CO. Happy to be here and more than happy to be joined by the venerable Rabbi Rak Garfield from Houston, Texas. Rabbi Garfield, take it away. >> Shalom. I actually got my start on Nights in America myself as you were kind enough to invite me on and speak in the early days when you let the no neighbors come on. And other than that, I've done a little chemic here and there. I've been involved in this for about 23 years. I was a ninth grade rabbi in Atlanta, school counselor, youth director, all that good stuff. and I've been in Houston for 13 years. The head of school of the largest Jewish elementary school in Texas, the rapidly growing Yeshiva Torres MS of Houston. So happy to be Shfeld. Let's get started. Okay, Garp, we flipped a coin or a 20 guy that plays stratamatic and you get the first ever question on the learning curve. So just to explain what Garfield and I hope to accomplish and that is we both have become very good friends over the last few years and we share a passion for and maybe we share also a passion for mixing things up a little and being a little bit on the forefront on the edge world and trying to make the biggest impact we can in our yeshivas in our communities and that's what this is about. There's nothing more important. I tell the parents of my yeshiva, we spend more money on than we do on anything else that we have. There is nothing more important to us than the of our children that are of our boys and our girls. Let's talk about it and let's discuss things that matter the most to us on a platform that hopefully will be exciting, engaging, and insightful and helpful. Sounds like a plan. I'm all in. >> Let's go. The platform that we hope to accomplish with these podcasts is it will be definitely a combined effort that if when we hear questions from parents from anal then we'll be able to discuss them and go through them. We'll focus on one big topic a week maybe take us a couple of weeks if it's such a topic that's big enough and then go on a few smaller topics and share some insights hopefully that the listeners will find helpful. So, we'll go through a couple of shorter questions with some shorter answers and then we'll deal with the spotlight, the focus email of the week. We did the spin. Rabb Garfield won to get the first question this week. So, you get the first ever question. These are questions that parents have sent in to us and saying, "Hey, we trust you. We want to hear from you. What do you have to say on the following topic?" So, here we go. So this is from a mother who says that my son is in sixth grade and he still refuses to go to shul on shabas. My husband and I really feel that he belongs to shul but we don't want to push him too hard. Should we incentivize? Should we leave him be? Should we force him? I think this is a case that many of us are smiling. We can relate to in one child or the other. What says you Garfield? >> What a question. I think this is something we've all experienced all parents of middle school boys and many high school boys as well. And my first reaction is just something I recently heard from by Yisk Fagenbalam. I just met him at the Tormasur convention. I don't know why I haven't met him earlier. He is such a Zisa guy. He's a sweetheart. He's been in for a long time. He was in Toronto at the one of the basakovs there and now he lives in Artis. Anyway, we were talking about Tila and he told me a following insight that I never thought about that this way, but I think is really an important starting point. He said, "We all have different personality traits. Some people are outgoing and some people are inggoing. Some people are organized and some people are less organized. Some people are into drama and public speaking and some people not. And he said in his experience in over 40 plus years, there are some people who connect to Davening and Davening is meaningful for them and some people who it is naturally not. And he saidim and parents have to recognize that for some people it comes natural and easy and for some people it comes hard. And reading this question and hearing the word my son refuses to go to shul to me it cries out that it's hard for this kid for whatever reason. It's hard and we have to start with that frame of mind. I think when addressing this question before we get to what to do, I think there needs to be a lot of empathy and understanding that this kid is not sham bad or anti- good or some kind of blasphemous kid. He's a kid who has a hard time sitting in Shaw. What do you think, Rabbi Schfel? I love the Rabbi Fagen. I think also what it does is it takes it from the kid did something wrong or struggling. There must be something wrong with him to this is his nuda. This is his challenge. There are certain kids that are more naturally inclined to limit Gumara and more naturally content feel. You have the kids you walk into the third grade and there's the kid who's singing in the top of his lungs ash who's playing with Lego under the desk. >> And to me the most important thing and maybe we'll hear this a lot if we have this of doing this podcast for a long time is for parents >> to embrace the following mush that I heard I have an uncle who was involved in a different type of a special his name is Abby Fishov very of a person. The muscle he gave was if you see a house that's missing a bathroom and it's got one wall up and no heating, you think it's a shack. But if there's a sign in front of the house that says under construction. So then it changes your entire perspective of the edifice. And I think we live in the instant generation and I am definitely part of the Wii. We want our children to be like our next door neighbor's children so fast and so quickly. And that sixth grader is a sixth grader, a fifth grader, a fourth grader. And we have to sometimes take a deep breath and sometimes just say he's a sixth grader and he won't dab in and he won't dab in with a minion. Remember he's in yeshiva six days a week. It's just one day he doesn't have to wake up. He lives in Pic. It means he's got to wake up at 7:30 because there's no minion past 8:00 in Pic. This is his one day where he can sleep a little late. And of course the goal is to incentivize. My father used to give us a dime every time we found a certain word in fumish in the aliyah when I was stuck on the stage in the young Israel sitting next to the rabbi facing the audience. If we embrace the fact that Rome wasn't built in a day and our child is 10 and 11 it's not zon. >> So are you saying we should not force the kid to go to sh? >> Of think that's pure and no one thinks they shouldn't force. If incentives work then that's cute. That's nice. I wouldn't put >> I don't think that's so pure. Hold on. You're sure that no parents listening to this think they shouldn't force their kid to go to shul to say in this house we go to shul no questions asked. It's not an optional. It's a must. We brush our teeth. We eat dessert last. We put away the cereal box after breakfast. And we go to shul. You're saying that position has no place in the world. >> Correct. >> What? I think that's a little strong there. Rabbi Shfel, >> forcing a child who was not yet to den we're not discussing an eighth grade who was over bar mitzvah, but forcing teen minions, that wasn't the question, so we won't answer it. But I think forcing an 11-year-old to go to shul, I think it's going to backfire. That's why to me it's playing the long game. And if you want to incentivize it, wonderful. It goes without saying that you're not going to reap the benefits of getting nas from your son. You're not turning your son into a wonderful daber by waking him up at 7:30 in the morning by 8:00 in the morning on a shabas morning to sit in shul and I think you have to as you said embrace the fact that certain kids are naturally not easy dabers certain adults as well and it will come and a lot of times our mitzvah is a magical potion that all of a sudden the kids put on a hat and they start putting on and all suen they start dabbing and they have that kashiva sometimes it doesn't come and that's a different challenge but I I don't think that's where your energy should be as a parent on Shabas morning to force your kid to go to shul. >> Okay, there you have it. Let's move on to question number two. Rabbi Shonfeld, hi. What do you do when your son or daughter and the Rebi or Moa have different facts about an event that happened in class and your son or daughter got punished because of the facts set forth by the Rebi? So, I know this question because it happened to a friend of mine who wrote in this question to be discussed in the podcast. So, I do want to begin by saying I think it very much depends on age. So, I'm going to pick an age. I'm not going to go high school. I think when you're in Mifa, it's a very different conversation. I think when you're in seventh and eighth grade, it's a very different conversation. I'm going to stick a sweet spot, second grade, third grade. I think that there is nothing more important to a child, to a parent than putting a Rebby on a pedestal and having the Rebi be that larger than life role model semol my rebi who malikim. And I think by the way in a lesser version I think the math teacher is the same but because if we want our children to learn everything that there is to learn in elementary school they are black and white thinkers kids don't see gray they didn't see nuance as a Russia period when I was in I learned in South Forgim with one that does not work in elementary school children they want to be superheroes they don't want to be accountants there is nothing against accountants But they think in black and white and they think in absolutes. We have to have our kids believe and feel that what Rebi says goes. When the child comes home and says, "My Rebie took away my recess." >> Rabbi Shfeld, I wonder, have you ever been accused falsely when you were a child? And how that felt? >> Most of the times I was accused it wasn't falsely. >> That's what I figured. >> Many Balabatans send their sons and daughters to yeshivas that push for the long-term cuddle lifestyle while the parents themselves do not want that way of life for their children. Welcome to the Learning Curve podcast brought to you by Mishbaha Magazine. >> We're raising children in a changing and challenging world. >> So, let's tackle the important issues facing from families today. >> I'm Rabbi Rafel Garfield, Manal of Yeshiva Torres, MS in Houston, and I love talking about Kov. I'm Rabbi Ari Shonfeld Manali Shiva Katana of Manhattan, director of camp. I also love talking and sometimes fishing. >> Join us as we answer your questions and discuss the topics that matter to parents the most. Hello and welcome to the learning curve a podcast that will be discussing real conversations on real topics. Shalom. My name is Aishi Shfeld. I am currently the man in Ishikatana Manhattan. The director of camp in Woodburn, New York. Maybe some of you remember me from Nightser America, a Barashem quite successful program that was run during the throws of co. Happy to be here and more than happy to be joined by the venerable Rabbi Rafil Garfield from Houston, Texas. Rabbi Garfield, take it away. >> Shalom. I actually got my start on Nights in America myself as you were kind enough to invite me on and speak in the early days when you let the no neighbors come on. And other than that, I've done a little chemic here and there. I've been involved in this for about 23 years. I was a ninth grade rabbi in Atlanta, school counselor, youth director, all that good stuff. And I've been in Houston for 13 years, the head of school of the largest Jewish elementary school in Texas, the rapidly growing Yeshiva Torres MS of Houston. So happy to be Shfeld. Let's get started. Okay, we flipped a coin or a 20 ted die those that play stratamatic and you get the first ever question on the learning curve. So just to explain what Garfield and I hope to accomplish and that is we both have become very good friends over the last few years and we share a passion for and maybe we share also a passion for mixing things up a little and being a little bit on the forefront on the edge world and trying to make the biggest impact we can in our yeshivas in our communities and that's what this is about. There's nothing more important. I tell the parents in my yeshiva, we spend more money on than we do on anything else that we have. There is nothing more important to us than the of our children of our boys and our girls. Let's talk about it and let's discuss things that matter the most to us on a platform that hopefully will be exciting, engaging, and insightful and helpful. Sounds like a plan. I'm all in. >> Let's go. The platform that we hope to accomplish with these podcasts is it will be definitely a combined effort that if when we hear questions from parents from anal then we'll be able to discuss them and go through them. We'll focus on one big topic a week maybe take us a couple of weeks if it's a topic that's big enough and then go on a few smaller topics and share some insights hopefully that the listeners will find helpful. So, we'll go through a couple of shorter questions with some shorter answers and then we'll deal with the spotlight, the focus email of the week. We did the spin. Rabb Garfield won to get the first question this week. So, you get the first ever question. These are questions that parents have sent in to us and saying, "Hey, we trust you. We want to hear from you. What do you have to say on the following topic?" So, here we go. So this is from a mother who says that my son is in sixth grade and he still refuses to go to shul on chabas. My husband and I really feel that he belongs to shul but we don't want to push him too hard. Should we incentivize? Should we leave him be? Should we force him? I think this is a case that many of us are smiling. We can relate to in one child or the other. What says you Garfield? >> What a question. I think this is something we've all experienced all parents of middle school boys and many high school boys as well. And my first reaction is just something I recently heard from by Yisk Fagenbalam. I just met him at the Tormasur convention. I don't know why I haven't met him earlier. He is such a Zisa guy. He's a sweetheart. He's been in for a long time. He was in Toronto at the one of the basakovs there and now he lives in Artisel. Anyway, we were talking about Tila and he told me a following insight that I never thought about that this way, but I think is really an important starting point. He said, "We all have different personality traits. Some people are outgoing and some people are in inggoing. Some people are organized and some people are less organized. Some people are into drama and public speaking and some people not. And he said in his experience in over 40 plus years, there are some people who connect to Davening and Davening is meaningful for them and some people who it is naturally not. And he said mim and parents have to recognize that for some people it comes natural and easy and for some people it comes hard. And reading this question and hearing the word my son refuses to go to shul to me it cries out that it's hard for this kid for whatever reason. It's hard and we have to start with that frame of mind. I think when addressing this question before we get to what to do, I think there needs to be a lot of empathy and understanding that this kid is not Kasam bad or anti- good or some kind of blasphemous kid. He's a kid who has a hard time sitting in Shaw. What do you think, Rabbi Schfel? I love the Rabbi Fagen. I think also what it does is it takes it from the kid did something wrong or struggling there must be something wrong with him to this is his nuda. This is his challenge. There are certain kids that are more naturally inclined to limit Gumara and more naturally contented feel. You have the kids you walk into the third grade and there's the kid who's singing the top of his lungs ash who's playing with Lego under the desk. >> And to me the most important thing and maybe we'll hear this a lot if we have this of doing this podcast for a long time is for parents >> to embrace the following m that I heard. I have an uncle who was involved in a different type of a special his name is Abby Fishov very of a person. The muscle he gave was if you see a house that's missing a bathroom and it's got one wall up and no heating, you think it's a shack. But if there's a sign in front of the house that says under construction. So then it changes your entire perspective of the edifice. And I think we live in the instant generation and I am definitely part of the Wii. We want our children to be like our next door neighbor's children so fast and so quickly. And that sixth grader is a sixth grader or fifth grader or a fourth grader. And we have to sometimes take a deep breath and sometimes just say he's a sixth grader and he won't dab and he won't dab in with a minion. Remember he's in yeshiva six days a week. It's just one day he doesn't have to wake up. He lives in Pic. It means he's got to wake up at 7:30 because there's no minion past 8:00 in Pic. This is his one day where he can sleep a little late. And of course the goal is to incentivize. My father used to give us a dime every time we found a certain word in flammish in the aliyah when I was stuck on the stage in the young Israel sitting next to the rabbi facing the audience. If we embrace the fact that Rome wasn't built in a day and our child is 10 and 11 it's not zon. >> So you're saying we should not force the kid to go to sh of I think that's pure and no one thinks they shouldn't force. If incentives work then that's cute. That's nice. I wouldn't put >> I don't think that's so Hold on. You're sure that no parents listening to this think they shouldn't force their kid to go to shul to say in this house we go to shul no questions asked it's not an optional it's a must we brush our teeth we eat dessert last we put away the cereal box after breakfast and we go to shul you're saying that position has no place in the world >> correct What? >> I think that's a little strong there. Rabbi Shfel, >> forcing a child who is not yet to den we're not discussing an eighth grade who was over bar mitzvah, but forcing and teen minions, that wasn't the question, so we won't answer it. But I think forcing an 11-year-old to go to shul, I think it's going to backfire. That's why to me it's playing the long game. And if you want to incentivize it, wonderful. It goes without saying that you're not going to reap the benefits of getting nas from your son. and not turning your son into a wonderful daber by waking him up at 7:30 in the morning by 8:00 in the morning on a shabas morning to sit in shul and I think you have to as you said embrace the fact that certain kids are naturally not easy dabers certain adults as well and it will come and a lot of times our mitzvah is a magical potion that all of a sudden the kids put on a hat and they start putting on and all suen they start dabbing and they have that kashiva sometimes it doesn't come and that's a different challenge but I I don't think that's where your energy should be as a parent on Shabas morning to force your kid to go to shul. >> Okay, there you have it. Let's move on to question number two. Rabbi Shonfeld, hi. What do you do when your son or daughter and the Rebi or Mora have different facts about an event that happened in class and your son or daughter got punished because of the facts set forth by the Rebi? So, I know this question because it happened to a friend of mine who wrote in this question to be discussed in the podcast. So, I do want to begin by saying I think it very much depends on age. So, I'm going to pick an age. I'm not going to go high school. I think when you're in Mifa, it's a very different conversation. I think when you're in seventh and eighth grade, it's a very different conversation. I'm going to stick a sweet spot second grade, third grade. I think that there is nothing more important to a child to a parent than putting a rebby on a pedestal and having the rebby be that larger than life role model semol my rebi who malikim and I think by the way in a lesser version I think the math teacher is the same but because if we want our children to learn everything that there is to learn in elementary school they are black and white thinkers Kids don't see gray. They don't see nuance. As is a Russia period. When I was in I learned in South Forg from with one that does not work in elementary school. Children for Purim. They want to be superheroes. They don't want to be accountants. There is nothing against accountants. But they think in black and white and they think in absolutes. We have to have our kids believe and feel that what Rebi says goes. When the child comes home and says, "My Rebby took away my recess and he lied." I'm not saying to ignore your son. But at the end of the day, we have to listen to Rebi. And even if we don't understand that, even if Reb says something that you don't think happened, but you can't therefore just ignore him and you can't therefore just say, "I don't care because it is too important for us at a young age to have Arab be." >> I think I could fairly say that I completely disagree with you. I think that would be a fair way for me to >> I want to know what the I want to know what the unfair way is but okay. Yeah. >> In context. I think that there's nothing more important than a trusting loving relationship between parents and children. Herb will come and go. Math teachers will come and go. Even man will come and go. >> But that relationship that parent has with that child is going to be there for the next mitzm 80 years. And the child needs to know that his parent trusts him, believes in him, believes him. I'm not saying that you have to get into a who's lying match and say you're lying, he's lying. The message, I think the critical message that a child needs to get even in second grade, even in kindergarten, even in nursery, is I got your back. I love you. I got your back. Now, let's figure out how to navigate. >> I got your back. He's a seven-year-old, right? Rebi says I don't know he spoke out in class I don't know he wasn't allowed to get out of his class there was the break and he wasn't allowed to get out of his desk so therefore Rebby says he misses part of his break so what I got your back the boy says I didn't get out of >> okay I say first I say to my kid that must be horrible >> I'm with you >> you didn't get out of your chair and you got accused of it I can't think of a worse thing it's horrible empathy genuine empathy that you trusted so number one is not to say you're talking about your Rebby. He's on a pedestal. You know who you're talking about. No, that is not the first reaction. Not that you said it was. The whole premise of this pedestal business invokes in my mind an attitude of do you realize you're talking about Rabbi Goldberg? And I'm like I would say I feel like I'm being unfairly accused of not being empathetic towards my children. >> Rabbi Schfeld, I wonder, have you ever been accused falsely when you were a child and how that felt? Most of the times I was accused it wasn't falsely. >> That's what I figured. I remember once in first grade, and I don't want to get too into it, but I have a quite a history of challenging elementary school stories. There was a boy in my class who said he lost his Yamaka outside and asked me and another boy to go help him find it. So, I was a nice kid. I was a little naive. I'm like, "Sure." So, we go outside. We're looking all over for his yamama. I remember this like it was yesterday. And we're sitting on a bench afterwards waiting. And we're like, I don't know where it is. And the kid pulls it out of his pocket. >> Sweet. >> As the principal and the moa, who was the teacher, I think, walked into the playground and they saw him do that. And they went crazy because they caught us in the act of lying about him losing his yamaka when he really had it the whole time. >> So, you got in trouble also? >> Yes. All three of us got in deep trouble. I did nothing. The other kid maybe did it, but I didn't do it. Now, I remember that story. That's about all I remember from first grade. I actually don't remember if my parents believed me or not. So, we'll leave my parents off the hook at the moment. I assume that they did. But I don't even remember advocating for myself to be honest cuz I figured there's no way anyone's going to believe me. But the truth is, I didn't do it. I really didn't do it. I think the damage in a situation where you're telling your parents I really didn't do it and the rebi saying you did the damage that could cause to the relationship between a parent and a child and even their attitude towards school and abundant could be very destructive. So role play the other side. Role play. So you're the mother and you come home. So therefore, so I believe you. Okay. And what's the and I believe? >> Okay. First of all, I believe you. It wasn't you. Okay. And now what? So now I should go into school tomorrow. And >> wait, slow down. So first of all, I have a nice technique I've developed which is classic. I love it. The teacher sends out a kid and says he was talking. And the kids I wasn't talking. So you know what I say to the kid? I said, so what you're really saying is you know how wrong it is to talk and you never would talk. Exactly. And you understand why a teacher would not want a kid talking ever during class. Exactly. The kid says because I never talked. Said great. Now you can go back to class because I know you'll never talk again. Thank you. It's a nice trick. You can use that one. Just keep me in mind. >> But I want to know I want to know where you go with this. Let's say you're that you come. >> I think lying. What does lying mean? Lying a kid saying I'm embarrassed about being accused of this cuz I know it's wrong. >> So you are you're Rafael Garfield's mother father and you come home. It wasn't my fault. It wasn't her fault. And you're not calling the principal. is big enough to call the right you're not going there and the rebi took away your recess you can empathize and validate and say I believe you fortunate but at the end of the day let's say you were to the rebi let's say you told me no I told every you're lying right now I told him it's not true no I therefore I didn't go to I went to recess even though the rebi said I can't >> so that's a great learning that's a great learning opportunity for the kid how did that work for you >> saying that to the rebby did it get you out of it did it make it better did it make it worse how could you have managed the situation assuming you didn't do it and it wouldn't have escalated. What if you were in a note? What if you said to the can I talk to you after class? What if you said you >> So that you're talking to a sixth grader, not a second grader. You're not having that conversation. >> Totally could talk to a second grader this way. Maybe the second graders in Houston are >> definitely for sure you could say to a second grader, did that work for you? How could you explain to the moa or to the rebby that you didn't do it in a way get them angry? >> I tried I tried but they didn't listen. Why don't you try it? Let's talk about that. I said, "Mora, it wasn't me." And Mora said, "Yeah, I saw it was you." A Rebi is not having a deep. Now, Myra are amazing and incredible, but they're not having deep back and forths with the second grader. They saw it. They saw it their way. And they go back to her. >> If I'm the parent, I'm going to make sure that the issue is explored properly. And this poor Reb is going to have to deal with a parent who really cares and doesn't want his kid to feel violated. For this particular kid, we're going to have to deal with it. Maybe I'll have the kid write a note and I'll be the one to email it and say, "Dear Rabbi Goldman, please see this attached note from my little buffer. He felt really bad and he wanted to share this with you." >> And just see what happens. >> 90% of the time, the Reb is going to be like, "All right, it wasn't such a big deal." Sometimes the kid's lying. We're assuming where you don't really know. >> Assuming you don't really know. So to me, there's a fine line between empathizing with your kid and not taking away the authority of the Revy. So I would say that it's very critical that our initial reaction and the emotional reaction that we have to a child is one of love, trust and then problem solving opposed to starting out with a vilification followed by a empathy. >> We're not really arguing that much then to me maybe as a now who sees the repercussions of a kid who's a third grader and a second grader who doesn't trust the Rebi and then can't learn from the Rebi. So that's why to me you're right. I'm not arguing with the premise that you need to empathize with your child and to validate and you don't call your child a liar and I'm not saying you tell them the truth but there has to be an understanding that even if we don't understand the rebby or even if the rebby maybe made a mistake if you believe your child and everyone else certain children bend the truth a little bit more than others there has to be this place where machi at a point where rebi made a mistake but at the end of the day Yankee he's the rebi and we have to listen to the rebi even if we don't understand the rebi and even if the rebi says things that we don't agree with or was a mistake but there's der eritz that you have to have that there's a certain I think we need to keep pushing that agenda as opposed to listen he's no different than you and me and he's wrong now I don't know what your is doing and I think it's a very slippery slope to ask our children to learn and mid from someone that they don't treat like a superhero >> that's fair I definitely think there are certain families that I see over time wherether Their attitude is full of suspicion as anti-school and you see it in their kids, multiple kids over time. >> Correct. >> And that really backfires and hurts the family in a way that like you said, this is such a big investment. They're investing. It's not only money, but investing their whole of their kids in your school. And to undermine it by turning the rebum into people you can't learn from or respect or whatever is such an undermining of what you're trying to accomplish. So I definitely could hear that. I just don't want to make sure we don't lose the fact that kids need to feel heard and they need to be validated. But you're right, regardless of that, they have to be also taught how to behave in situations when they have a disagreement and not to be disrespectful and rude. >> So, the next email is one that as I'm seeing it, I don't know if it's one we're going to discuss now. This sounds like one that needs its own three or four podcasts. So I'll read it and then maybe we'll smile and laugh and then decide what to do with it. And it goes as follows. As the distance between the hashkafa of the sheba world and again I just want to re say the following caveat. These words are the words of the writer of the email themselves and do not represent the learning curve necessarily. Dear the learning curve. >> Dear the learning curve. >> As the distance between Ashkafa of the Hebrew world and the balish world grows. What is the best way to deal with idealistic differences that parents have with the yeshivas they send their children to? The person who sent this is actually referring to MFA as an example. And please don't respond to this example specifically as it is just an illustration of the issue and requires a whole different discussion. Many Balabatans send their sons and daughters to yeshivas that push for the long-term cuddle lifestyle while the parents themselves do not want that way of life for their children. How do you deal with the divergent paths that both you and the yeshiva you chose to send your kids are paving? Ideally, we would all love to send our children to schools that reflect their own exact values as from society becomes more extreme on both ends. A lot of assumptions in this email that seems like a luxury we may never be able to realize. Rab Garfield, you want to tackle this one? I don't. But I I do have one small comment that the younger the children are, so let's say preschool as you get through fifth grade and then middle school, I think the less a school should be about indoctrination and giving over a hashkafas and more trying to make it shovel a hole. I do respect that as you get older, the role of a yeshiva is to give over a specific hashkafa. I think that's part of the job of a yeshiva. So it gets a little tricky because I think in the younger grades it's a less but I do definitely feel that when you go to certain yeshivas you get a certain everyone knows that's part of the experience mus it's a mile. Yeah, I do think it's a fun topic of what to do when you send your son to a massifa and the rebi says big said bigis and big ideas that are not your hashkafa and against but that's I think for podcast number one maybe we'll avoid this >> okay and it does actually touch upon what we talked about in the last question it does a little bit >> giving the backing for the process to take place and where do you leave a kid who's surrounded by rab where the parents are rolling their eyes about what they say tricky business. Okay, but let's go on. The final question and maybe one that we'll explore a little here goes as follows. Rabbi Shfeld, I recently returned from PTC to hear that my seventh grader is not doing well in Gammorra. He was never a very strong student but always did what was needed and I never got reports like this. The Rebi said he's well behaved in class and seems to follow directions. When it comes to understanding the logical sequence of the Gumarra, he gets confused and can't follow. The rabbi didn't have much advice and said, "It's possible that our son is not cut out for Gimarra. He's a wonderful kid. He even goes to do with his father." Funny he says that. And always helps at home. What should we do about this? Are there kids that just can't learn Gamarra? Is it too early to give up? Help exclamation. be said this is the email that we like maybe spend a lot of time on because I think this is maybe the question of the day maybe it's the question of the last I don't know days years decades I don't know but I will share that last year I was asked to be at a meeting with a bunch of manal a termura sanctionled meeting and this was the entire topic of the meeting I think was the one who brought it up I co-sponsored the topic and that is dealing with kids that are wonderful that are superstars and that as of today, sixth grade, seventh grade, fifth grade, eighth grade can't break the code of gum. The reality is that our system, the orthodox yeshiva system today is predominantly centered on Gimra. It just is. We could put aside and maybe we'll discuss it whether there should be changes. Those obviously very big top very big high pay grade conversations. But the mitsas is the reality that's what it is. And you have kids that are brilliant at so many things. They're musical. They're talented. They're great davers. They love the davin. They have that character trait naturally. They're incredible. They're organized. But either they have a language processing challenge. And just I I think I speak behalf of any yeshiva guy, anyone that went through the yeshiva system and ended up in a Yiddish like I did. I had this learning in the mirror. And I I was typical. In other words, a bash gives and he speaks quickly and organized and methodically but quickly. He's giving in Yiddish. I'm processing it and translating it into English and then I'm writing it down in my broken Hebrew. So, I'm doing that all in a half a second. >> Wow. >> Now, I don't mind the wow, but that's what everyone does, right? There's nothing unique about that. That's what everyone does. You should guys do we listen to write it down. And then you have a kid who has a small reading challenge, dyslexia, a language processing, he's got ADD, ADHD. Put it all together and you got a wonderful concoction of a kid that's a great kid that by the way might be amazing at science and amazing at and he just can't read a garra. There's a zug there's a line from Einstein. It's an amazing line. I used it recently to a parent. I don't want to give away the name. It's a parent in my school that has a kid that fits this prototype. A brilliantly talented kid just not a kamar. And the kid happens to be very musical. I'm going to change some of the details. The kid plays guitar wonderfully well. So I told the mother I quoted the line they say from Einstein is everybody's a genius but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree >> it live its whole life believing that it is stupid. >> Wow. >> I said to her it's really my responsibility as the man and arisha to find your son's talent and to actualize it and to push it and to make him feel good about himself. And I'm not answering the question yet about what to do with kimarra. But I think the first thing is that everyone has talent. Everyone. I met a parent two years ago of a kid that was struggling in. And I said to the father, "Tell me what your son's good at." And the father looked at me and said, "I don't know." >> And that like to me, get out of my office. >> Every every kid has extreme capabilities and is awesome at some things. And the first thing we have to do is find it and accentuate it and celebrate it and bring it out to give him the self-esteem, the self-confidence to survive this avalanche of foreign language of decoding that I just finally finished decoding the difference between a gh which is it makes the phonics and the this sounds and that sounds and I have to go into Aramaic. There has to be a support system in their lane in their world of talent before we can discuss what to do with the fact that they struggle in Gomorrah. They will be better and they'll be willing to struggle in Gumra if they are celebrated in what they're good at. That's my and being that this is a co-hosted podcast and not a singular hosted podcast as would say polygal I hand it over to you to continue the conversation and maybe you'll strongly disagree with me you I don't know what >> I don't think I disagree it's complicated especially in the younger grades I'm reminded of a tal I had in nth grade when I taught it was unbelievable this student was tremendously challenged first of all his biological clock was such that he didn't wake up till 11:00. So he came to Shar. He somehow got there. Als literally almost every day till 10:30, 11 in Garfield she >> in my sh no less. Exactly. And he sat right in front of me. Number two, he couldn't write. Great artist. Could not write. His reading was horrible. He couldn't stay awake, couldn't write, and he couldn't read. Fun guy. >> Other than that, >> other than that, he was a great student. I loved him. I actually did love him. and we're very close and but I can't say that I moved the needle far in terms of his academics although in learning when it came to just thinking he was quite intelligent or idea or socially and this is very early in my career so I really didn't have the language in my mind to talk about where his skills might lie where his deficits it was very early as one of my first three classes if I remember anyway believe it or not this kid ended up in Brisk top did which he sure he really did. He is a big massmith today. >> I don't think I can't imagine he ever overcame his writing. I can't imagine. But what happened was as the Gumarra and as he grew through it became more conceptual and less skill-based. He really thrived in the conceptual side. It gets tricky because we don't want to give up on kids. We don't want to write kids off in sixth, seventh grade because it's hard because a lot of these skills they could mature into as you get more comfortable with the language as your mind develops. The logical sequencing of a gamarra is complicated. It takes a mature mind and sometimes kids just need a little longer. I know there's a discussion >> about when to start gamarra. People hold you should push it off. In our school we start in the middle of fifth grade. When do they start? >> We used to start in sixth and now we start in fifth. And I went to Hill Mandel who used to be the Malamaya. Paul and I want to start in fifth to be almost practical. Maybe because the camp director me says, "Hey, I want the kids to be in a year in the summer that they know Gumar, but no, but really to me it's it just everyone else is doing in fifth grade. We're a half year behind." So I met him Mandell at Thomas Convention last year. And I said, "You were why do you start Gamar in sixth grade? Everyone starts in fifth." So he said to me, "Because held like this and pan held like that." >> Really? >> I said to him, it's interesting because Kerin and Turvadas start in fifth grade. So he said to me and I asked them that and they both told me they wish they could switch it. So I said Mandel here's my promise. I'm going to start Gamar in fifth grade and I'm going to wish we could switch it. And we're starting Gamar for the first time this year in fifth grade. I want to add a story because I had a similar story with one of my Tommy in eighth grade. >> I taught eighth grade makas and I had a boy most of my plenty on my I'm going to call Yankee. I had a boy Yankee who never got over 30 in a test the whole year. And if you would have said to me, "What's Yankee skill set?" It would have been zero. Sat in the back of the class. It was that classic back in the class out to lunch. And but he was like one of those kids that you thought was smart. So we finished the second paragan makas and it was a 40 question test and he was no shas. He wasn't going to pass. He wasn't going to get 10 points. So I decided, you know what? He's a creative mind. I didn't think he'd listen to one word I said the whole year. And Mr. Yankee, here's the deal. You're not going to take the test. You're going to write me a story and the story is going to be a fiction story and every reference or every gumar that you quote in Makus in the second par about gullis it's about right a person who kills bishog and goes to gullis