Religious Trauma in Therapy with Devora Shabtai, LCSW- PhD Candidate

[Music] thank you welcome everyone today I have a very special guests which we're going to have a very interesting discussion with devorah shabtai the Photoshop is a PhD candidate and currently serves as the vice president of clinical programming and onward living and addiction rehabilitation program the Jewish men in Boca Raton Florida the Border specializes in the treatment of addiction and spiritual religious trauma as well as clinical program design that is tailored to meets the clinical and cultural needs of members of the Orthodox Jewish community within both inpatient and outpatient levels of care alongside clinical work the world has a background in evidence-based research and a recurrent doctoral research is examining spiritual religious identity development and its relationship to mental health so welcome devorah and thank you for being here with me just for a short interesting discussion thank you very much coach I'm for your willingness and interest in talking about this uh this topic that is very near my heart for sure okay so let's get started if you can tell us a little bit tell the audience how you got into this specific interests that you do absolutely so the uh the journey into this specific uh passion uh is long and has many uh detours along the way but uh in short I started actually with with an interest in working with people specifically on their spiritual issues I was working with Seminary girls um about uh 10 12 years ago and I noticed in my in my work with them um specifically on religious identity and religious conflicts that a a tremendous barrier for some was their emotional well-being and their psychological health and I found myself very more often than not discussing their internal psychology you know in the context of religious development and so I realized really what I what I'm passionate about and what I love is is mental health and really understanding um how one achieves emotional well-being and so I went uh went to get a um a degree to become a therapist and I am now a licensed clinical social worker and uh Flash Forward and I fell in love in a clinical context with addiction and I found myself working in a treatment center and working with people on Behavioral Health addiction and Trauma and when starting to work with people from the Jewish community and listening to their stories I started to see how much for each one and each in their own way and each in their own flavor a person walking into addiction treatment is carrying with them so much having to do with their religious experiences and the religious story and even if people were coming in having wanting nothing to do with Judaism nothing to do with Jews and I had many people in our addiction treatment center that'd be coming in because they wanted to run away from the community but nevertheless even though they wanted to run away this is what they brought with them and this is what we ended up really focusing on in the course of our of our work together um and so even though ironically I came into this field because I wanted to move away from the spiritual identity into mental health because I saw that direction right that emotional being really is at the core of so much of our spiritual identity I started to see really this other direction and all working with people on emotional well-being really exploring their spirituality and the religious identity actually is part and parcel of the journey towards emotional well-being and I started to see that really it's one in the same it just depends on where on the conveyor belt so to speak we're meeting someone um and so that really brought me into really wanting to understand where religious identity where spirituality plays a role in our mental health and in our emotional well-being and what that direction in that relationship was and so that that is that is a little bit of how I how I got into this interesting um just before we start if you can explain a little bit what you mean by religious trauma um the things that you see that they need um to be addressed even though there are many therapists out there that would put it on the side while they're treating their clients absolutely and this word itself is so ambiguous and so confusing and every time I use it I'm Amazed by how much the interpretation itself can be different you know you can use religious trauma and some people feel you're talking about religion itself right some people might hear that word and think of it as you know something to do with their relationship to Hashem and I think we have to start there the fact that this itself is not something that has a clear definition um and the way that I have come to to see it and conceptually understand it and apply it in terms of my work clinically is that a person who has grown up in the Jewish community regardless of their level of practice but when you grow up in that community and that world is what you know and you experience any type of painful situation in that context whether that be I'm in a Yeshiva system and I am struggling to feel like I can connect and so I feel like a misfit I don't quite fit into the world of gemara learning maybe I'm a creative more Spirit or artistic spiritual type of person and I'm in a a Yeshiva setting and I don't quite feel like I fit in and I'm left with this feeling of inferiority and shame or maybe I'm in a religious family and just like in any family and any I'm sorry in any backgrounds any culture any Community there exists For Better or Worse different types of dysfunction and abuse and Trauma that can occur nothing to do with religion but nevertheless if I grow up being neglected being abused having a dysfunctional situation in a family and it's a religious family now I'm going to start to associate anything with a religious or spiritual flavor with that same feeling of Shame neglect inferiority alienation and what it starts to do to that person is it creates a trigger that actually I find works very similarly to the uh the neurological the biological and the psychological process by which trauma can impact a person and so even if my my actual trauma had nothing to do with Yiddish guide itself right we're not talking about a philosophical issue we're not talking about an actual relationship issue with Hashem but nevertheless when a painful experience occurs within the context of a religious setting it could be the community as a whole it can be again a school or Yeshiva it could be a base mendrish it can be a basico school it can be my family now I'm going to carry with me a trauma response anytime something else has that same label in my mind of religion and so this is now kind of all lumped together into what I call religious trauma really it should be called cultural trauma um but this is something that I find has many different flavors many different applications and many different stories behind it but nevertheless on a conceptual level this is the model that I'm seeing it's interesting because what you're saying is that's that is the reason why the people that go for help or need help would look for therapists that's not religious they're running away from religion they they hate it this is what religion did and because it's so connected and they see it as religions so why would they go to somebody that is religious and then they they're triggered again with all of those religious stuff so they are looking for somebody that's not religious or a treatment center that has no juice there but you know that's the way they're running away from and you're saying that they're carrying baggage that's what they're carrying with them but they want to let it go so what would you say to that yes you are bringing bringing up V the double binds V Catch-22 The Impossible situation that many of these uh young men and women um I find are are struggling with because just like with any trauma response that fight or flight or freeze when I am now in an environment that makes me continually feel over and over again certain negative toxic painful emotions my instinct is to run away and so many of these individuals want to flee they want to flee their family they want to flee the Jewish community and they want to go anywhere else but here and in working originally my first my first uh opportunity in the in this field of religious trauma was the privilege to create a Jewish program within the context of a non-jewish treatment center because we found that many people DACA did need and want to spend time not in the environment of a Jewish community so that they can work through their behavioral health issues their addiction and their mental health without being uh you know in in that same environment that we wish to to to leave but yet while they might feel that it impulse that inclination that again if there's a biological science behind this when they get into a place where they don't feel those same religious connections they crave it and I can't tell you coach how many times in the non-jewish Center when a young man or woman from every Community every Walk of Life that we saw them in finally could have had freedom they could have changed their name they could have some of them do they changed their names when they get in but they could have totally melded in and became a you know chameleon in in that in that community and no one would have ever known they were Jewish and nobody would have ever ever said anything but when they saw me you know a visibly looking uh you know religious person or they heard that there was an opportunity for a Shabbos meal not one of them in my entire time doing it ever didn't have some type of of reaction and desire for that even if it was a moment of connection that was just coming over and telling me their Hebrew name whether that was wanting that Shabbos you know the khala or the grape juice and Shabbos whether it was being open to talking to a rabbi whether it was coming to our you know our Jewish groups that we offered as completely optional and never encouraged or pushed but just had it there every single one came they were thirsting for not only that connection but they were thirsting for the ability to talk with others who had that common language and who can understand their backgrounds and ultimately very much wanted to process through but I think it began with the with the feeling that I could run away I could carve out my own space and identity separate from my community but yet once I'm away from that I see that I'm bringing with me something about that identity for some people it's cultural they just want to be able to talk to another Jewish person and use the language for some of them they want to sit at a Shabbos table and just have that chicken soup in a rehab setting just to feel a little dose of connection for some people it is more religious and philosophical and they are wrestling with their relationship to Hashem and wanting to understand you know their their Muna and beautiful and she's a clearer right so for some people it's more intellectual and more internal but it for everyone it starts off with that fact that I might want to run away but yet I don't and that space of conflict that space of ambivalence is usually the most powerful and meaningful opportunity in a clinical setting because now I start to see just like with many other issues of mental health and Trauma there is that polarization within me there are multiple parts that I have and when it comes to religion and spirituality I find that it's very easy to overlook and it's very easy to think that our clients do not want to speak about religion and that the best way to create a rapport with them is to leave it alone and to not look like I have an agenda but really in doing that we are overlooking a tremendous clinical opportunity and I'm not talking I want to be clear I'm not saying that the goal of religious trauma work is to have a person return back to practice that's never on the table but the fact that they are carrying with them this story that needs to that light needs to be shed upon and it needs to be part of the clinical work that's what I've often seen I was shocked by how in a non-jewish setting where again these young men and women could have very easily disappeared every single one of them wanted to talk about it and I think that to me speaks volumes so it's interesting so what's I'm just wondering what is the reason what's from your point of view what is the reason for most therapists don't bring it into the room for you know through the therapy session through religious aspects yes it's a important question um it's something that I I consistently see that religious therapists at times will will walk into therapy and the relationship feeling like if I touch upon religion or spirituality if I ask the question of what religion means to you what your relationship with God you know is it there or is it not there that I am somehow promoting my own agenda and I know in clinical training you know we really are cautioned against anything with our own personal biases and I do think that that might scare some people away you know because I think that therapists feel often I know I certainly did in the beginning that if I really want to have rapport with somebody who's sitting here resentful toward religion angry at God that I should stay far away from that to show them that I'm on their same page um I think that's one reason and I think there's this sense out there that clinical work behave the world of Behavioral Health the world of mental health the world of addiction is somehow separate from spirituality right that if I work in treatment I'm not working in a cure of agency you know if I'm a therapist I've heard many people joke I'm not their Webby I'm not their rabbits and I I'm not the one that should be talking about this and I think that while I can certainly understand it and I think that for many people um for many clients there might need to be Rapport built first I can't tell you how the look of relief and comfort when I do show them that this is a safe topic to talk about and that their pain is something that I want to hear I want them to talk about their pain toward their Webbie and their Rabbi or their religious family I want them to bash and at times curse against the religious community I want them to cry about it I want them to scream about it I want that to come out of in the surface and the comfort that this is a safe topic is actually for so many of my clients how that deep relationship and that Rapport and that safety and that trust was built and I think that we do a disservice to our clients when especially if we're religious we think that we have to separate that okay so then um what's the solution you know these people in the beginning looking for help they don't want to see anybody religious they don't want to show up in the religious facility and um like you're saying they're going to run away so how what do we do what's the solution what are some ideas that you've came up maybe a message for those out there yes and I think first and foremost it comes from really having a crystallized understanding of the role of religion and spirituality um the role of religious pain and resentment in our clinical work and I think just starting with that more academic understanding um starting with that that real knowledge that if somebody was born into the religious community even if they are no longer practicing that is a part of the narrative and understanding that this is a trauma response like any other I think that that alone is important and I think that we need to go into another component here which is that one of the most destructive emotionally damaging impacts of religious trauma is that for many people as we know and research has certainly documented this within every culture including among the Orthodox population connection to God and religious uh are a an internal spiritual Reservoir independence of religion is incredibly necessary for emotional health and here I'm not talking about observance itself I'm talking about that internal relationship the ability to make meaning of our struggles the ability to feel like there is a higher power who has my best interest in mind and is relevant in my life and is overseeing my life that ability is so crucial even the 12 steps which we know in addiction is is very very important relies upon spiritual principles relies upon an internal ability to connect to a higher power and so the number one damaging thing of religious trauma is not even the fact that a lot of them turn away from practice because of it regardless of whether or not they believe or not it's that we are they are being stripped of the ability to turn to the most human Universal necessary resources and forms of support and so I think that looking at how this model of religious trauma work that the end goal is the ability for them to reconnect to their or connect for the first time to an inner spirituality and keeping focus on that I think that alone is is using the language that many therapists out there are very comfortable with because what we're really understanding is this is not an issue of religion at all we're not getting into tackle Sabria and whether or not a person believes in God or doesn't believe in God on a philosophical level we're talking about being able to strengthen and equip their internal spiritual connection and I think that when it's framed in that way that's when many therapists now become more comfortable I also think one thing I'll mention is that in trauma work one thing that we do find to be very important is that there's a time and place for rewiring healthy connections so whether my trauma was with a a caregiver an early caregiver and now I've put up a guard and I've put up a wall against all relationships part of the treatment and the reprocessing of that relational wound is my ability to have new positive connections with other people and I think that this is so important in the treatment of religious trauma to be able to equip a person just with the capacity and the and the willingness to have new positive spiritual connections and spiritual experiences and I can tell you you know now that I have the the incredible opportunities for us to work in an all Jewish program and we're living here in Florida where we work with men all communities all walks of by all levels of religious practice I find that ultimately the most healing component is not just what we do in the clinical offices but the fact that they start over time they start to become more open to new religious experiences whether that is for the first time being willing to speak to a rabbi again I can't tell you when we introduce the idea of having a program Rabbi the looks that I got and the the eruption I got you know was like nothing else other topics and now Flash Forward after several months of having a rabbi it is the most favorite group that the guys beg for and just that ability to create space that they're willing to have new rewired experiences um or a you know to have a religious experience at another school um one of my one of my clients I actually provided a treatment assignment to go into a base mentorish because he was experiencing actual Panic symptoms while walking into a basement I had him we did a systematic desensitization exercise where he had to walk in and then walk out and then he had to go and sit through a issue and we processed that again like you would process like any other trauma I had no interest on a clinical level of him becoming more of a learned person but on a on a fundamental trauma um level he was thirsting that connection he he was literally wanting and craving but he couldn't because of that trauma response so just being able to feel comfortable as a clinician to bring in that language to give that type of assignment to realize how the importance of that and how it played a role in developing addiction and putting that as part of our conceptualization of the problem I think that alone would do wonders we have to use that as part of our understanding of the story just like any other wounds our clients walk into our offices with religion and spirituality is such a complex topic and in our in our religion we have the difference between our culture our community and the feelings of being a part of that Community are not a part of that community and how much that itself can can either help help and heal and provide a powerful resource during times of support or contribute to a person's pain and feeling of isolation and alienation if they're somebody who doesn't quite fit our concept of a normal Community member and we have a set of religious practices that we are adhered to and belief system and something more cognitive and then we have that relationship and those three Realms culture religion spirituality often get molded together when a person has experienced pain and I think just helping that that our clients to tease apart their their relationships their experiences and their understanding of those three things and bringing that to the surface in their ability to relate is fundamental and creating new relationships new healthy relationships new positive relationships with culture with religion and spirituality in any way that they ultimately decide to take that but giving them that capacity is literally giving them a Lifeline whether or not they decide to re-enter into a community whether or not they decide to live a different type of Lifestyle but that ability to reconnect to God is for their emotional being the most important thing well that's an amazing uh interesting topic and um I just want to thank you again so thank you this is Devore shop day PhD candidate and serves as the vice president of clinical programming at onward living an addiction rehabilitation program for Jewish men in Boca Raton Florida um before we go is there any first of all any message you want to leave uh Swift and if somebody wants to reach out to you for more questions and different ideas where could they reach you absolutely thank you I think the message I will leave is that somebody who has experienced any form of this religious cultural spiritual trauma usually does not uh always come off um in in the most positive way there's a lot of pain there and I think that we really as not only as therapists but as a community need to realize that these are some of the most beautiful holy inspirational individuals and they have been through pain and so to not look at the surface to realize just as we would you know that pencil again but even so much more than just tolerating them is realizing how much depth there is and I think reframing to realize that a lot of people who are struggling with yiddishkite and addiction and mental health struggles there's a real story there and there's real potential there I have seen the most beautiful powerful people are the ones who go through this journey and I think just really looking through that lens of how we can learn from people who have gone through these struggles as opposed to thinking of them as the outcast you know which is what a lot of these young men and women are so used to feeling that's what's gone into their core beliefs and their sense of self and so just as a community as a group of people to really try to reframe it for ourselves I think is is first and foremost um and so I really thank you just for being willing to have this conversation and just to shed light on concept itself you know what what this issue is and the fact that there is Solutions and there is there is a way forward um and if anybody would like to learn more about the work that we do here at onward living or more about the religious trauma treatment um people can actually feel free to reach me my email address is at D shop Thai onwardliving.org and I would love that would love to hear any from anybody feedback questions insights experiences with this issue beautiful thank you thank you very much okay thank you [Music]