Rejuvenation: The Emperors and the Jews

[Music] hi everybody Keith Harrow on rejuvenation for the Land of Israel Network it is Thursday December 5th 2019 I should my husband's birthday what a hole he is because now he's much much older than I am the seventh day of Kislev 5780 I am going to the States next week if you want to see where I'll be you can go onto my website eat herro comso got a lot of things planned and I will be filling you guys in on that after I've done them but in the meantime I am sitting with Ari Lieberman whose book the Emperor's and the Jews I just finished delightful book and Ari thank you so much for for joining me here today on the land his own network Thank You Eve it's it's a pleasure to be here and when I was a student here in Israel in the late 70s I actually went to to a yeshiva to a Institute of higher Jewish learning here in the area in the gush etzion area and saw the beginnings of a frat where you live and today is just just a testimony to the Jewish people that God has allowed us to return here and and build a magnificent city like a frat and I want to thank you very much for for having me here today it's absolutely my pleasure yeah I feel the same way I feel like we're partnership with the creator of the world so he facilitates things in his own way sometimes which are not understandable and difficult and then we do our thing and we build our houses and we make our lives here and thank God it's it's been really an amazing journey so you also I mean I came to jewel in 1988 you came not long after what is what is your story so my wife and I moved to Israel we made alia Israel 25 years ago about eight months or so after we got married and it was something that that I always wanted to do and today my wife says it's something she always wanted to do but thank God we came together and we've been living for the last 20 years not too far from here in the community called the remote debate jamish and thank God all of all of our children are born here we're kind of a male centric house we have one daughter who's the oldest and then that's followed by five five boys yes oh boy is what everybody everybody tells us and and it's it's been wonderful they're they're they're great kids and our daughter gave birth about eight months ago to our first grandchild a granddaughter and my son-in-law is now serving in the home front and the lectures preparing elementary school children for for drills in case of god forbid attacks here in Israel and then it's the boys I have a 24 year old who completed service in the paratroopers unit and is currently in law school I have a son who also just completed army service as part of the has their combination army achieve a learning program and is now back learning in the old city in Jerusalem third saadon who is in a three-year architectural program and then the two younger ones high school and junior high school so what keeps us busy and you build a life you came here and you I mean clearly you have a family here a big family and he built a life but what it is what do you do aside from I mean I think about all the boys and then I think about my boys aside from the state of your bathrooms okay which was I yeah just always a thing but um but but what what do you do cuz to write a book like this the Emperor's and the Jews a lot of research went into this and I know that it said to me this is kind of a sideline I mean it's not like you're a journalist not like you're an author this is a almost like not a hobby but some kind of yearning that you had to do and you finally were able to do it so what have you done in the last 25 years so the book came out so I'm in the field of marketing and management I have a consulting business it's really me that's that's that that's that's the business and I have a number of clients outside of Israel and some within Israel and I provide management and marketing consulting services and it's allowed me you know to have some free time and - and to do the research that went into this book and just feel very blessed you know that I'm here in Israel and you know in Israel we say day to day month to month and so far 25 years it's worked and that's that's what I do that's what I do during the day and you know whenever I free time I I do the research on this book and the upcoming projects that I'm working on so what kicked off your interest in this Emperor's and the Jews you know basically the leader is mainly of the Roman world but not only and the rabbi's the sages the Jews that were living you know that were their contemporaries and the relations that they had between them because I think very often at least the way we learned it which was wrong now what now I mean it's one of my pet peeves is that you know we learn secular history and the Roman Empire we learned about the wars and the Romans destroyed the temple but there are there are relationships between the people even with the enmity of the nations so you know how did you how did you get like what drew you into this idea into doing the research on this book I think that's that's a great question and I always have not difficulty answering it but I think it was a combination a combination the impetus to simply write a book really came from the publishers the book is published by mosaic press a local Israeli publishing company with distribution through a fel time distribution in the United States and the founders of mosaic or Rabbi Yaakov Haber and rabbi Aaron Kornbluth who are I consider them to be friends they are neighbors and I've been working with the company helping them since they're since their inception and and they always felt they always told me you know there's a book inside of of everybody and I guess they did a good job convincing me that cell I started looking at different things I've always had a a strong interest in in Jewish history and I did not have a real academic background I actually did minor in history at bar-ilan University where I got my initial degree but I started looking at at that period which you had mentioned the the Greek period the Roman period and just came across as such fascinating personalities and and you just got hooked once it started with Alexander the Great it just went on to the next one but but but but I think what what what really prompted this yeah now that I look back is my father of blessed memory was a was a Holocaust survivor from from Hungary and when we were kids my father told told the stories constantly the the Sabbath table but he was always talking about pre-war Europe the war itself and then post-war his his activities after the war which included smuggling ins he heard into Palestine and serving in the war of independence and some of the stories dealt with the relationship that my grandfather my father's father who was killed with most of the family in Auschwitz and deported from their town at Hungary and and my grandfather was one of the heads of the Jewish Orthodox organization and hungry and had to deal with local officials and had to deal with the government in in Budapest and we heard all these stories and and that that would that I think kind of it resonated in terms of you know how my grandfather had you know how we had to deal I mean he was a very very pious rabbi you know in many ways insular serving his community but really had had no choice but had to you know had to represent the community on on different levels and as part of this whole background there was always an interest obviously in the war and the Holocaust the Shoah and I always felt that that it took me a while to kind of realize that I didn't really yet get the time line I really didn't connect all the dots I heard a tremendous amount of stories and and I believe that Holocaust memoirs and and the stories are extremely critical I mean you know to understand I believe Jewish history one has to start with the heart what one has to appreciate number one that there is a guiding hand to all of history which is God of course and and and that there is so many great Jewish personalities I mean they they that what the Jewish people have gone through of course through the millennium and all that is connected in the in the interaction that they have with the outside world so so I think it starts with with you know the hearts and the stories but but that's not enough because you know as I heard all the stories about my father it raised so many different questions so I think to really understand any period of Jewish history well one has to again start with the heart but then really understand the the facts what was happening in in the in in world history at the time and and kind of put everything into context so for example I would say that to really understand the show on what the Jewish people one has to understand what life was like in Europe for the Jewish people before the war and and I got a really good picture and sense of that from my father you know and and you know he he talked about the good and he talked about and not so good that was going on before the war he put things in context which is so incredibly important he put things into context and and then I I think I tried to take it a step further and and then try to understand you know Nazi Germany I mean and to understand Nazi Germany one has to go to what happens in World War one and what happened after World War one but that's not enough one has to go back you know to the 19th century and and look at works like Houston Chamberlain who developed theory of racial superiority and area so I think in order to really understand it and I think that's what makes it interesting you know you know it's it's you know I speak this to the kids and it's like history you know and even my own kids to say worrying it's boring it's dates you know 1776 American Revolution the French Revolution 1492 but I think when you get this context and you're able to like start with the heart get all the stories and get a real feel about people who live there but then understand and connect the dots in the context and and understand the movements and the trends and the ideologies then it becomes just like this fascinating painting a landscape that really you know you really appreciate you know and are in this case you know what the Jewish people went through and how God was there and was the guiding hand of history so your book focuses on really the greco-roman period I mean you start with Alexander the Great and end with you know that hold that whole time period that includes the destruction of the Second Temple and also afterwards the period that we would call the Machine ie the mudak period where we're still in the land we don't the temple anymore Judaism's taking a tremendous turn in the absence of the temple towards much towards Judaism earlier we practiced today the Judaism that's that's put together by the sages by the rabbi's but you know in reading this book I'm thinking well this book calls for a prequel and a sequel because you start with Alexander the Great was it which is in the fourth century BCE and kicks off you know cell uses the Greek period in a couple weeks we have konoka and all of that is in that Second Temple period but really if you want to talk about how the Jews are managing under foreign governments you can go into the Bible you can talk about more the book of Esther right we've got more - hi who's trying to keep a hush hush from wiping out all the Jews and of course we have the holiday of Purim you can have afterwards much afterwards you mentioned 1492 but you can talk about you know the Middle Ages like you know eight hundred nine hundred thousand years ago when we've got no less than Maimonides who's the doctor to the Sultan in Egypt and therefore also may maybe maybe protecting his people or at least giving advice and doing that so I think you opened up the door here I just wanted to tell you because you were about to relax for five minutes this is a fascinating topic I mean you know again from biblical times and and we're would probably be harder to do the research because there's much less information on those time periods outside of the biblical canon but all the way through today and some of what we have you know Jews it let's say in the United administration and working with not necessarily an emperor and we're not going to go down that way but certainly someone who's quite powerful so how do you just in broad terms before we get into some of these details how do you how do you see those the relationships you have very powerful in that you know we talk about the Emperor's this is not these are not democracies I mean these are the Roman Empire the Greek Empire they're coming in here how do you see the Jews fitting in here laying low trying to get trying to get close or being called to the Emperor or it's all of the above I I think I think it's all the above you know the book is the Emperor's and the Jews and not the Jews and the Emperor's I did want to show I wanted to paint a picture of of world history during those those periods as you mentioned which is the Greek enrollment period I could have started earlier I could have gone later but but but you know again the emphasis you know is on the Emperor's and trying to understand who they were where they were coming from I did pick those periods because I didn't want to show Talmudic sources and and all of these sources all these Emperor's are rooted in the Talmud the Talmud is not a history book but it has to be properly understood in order to understand the historical aspects of Jewish history and it is very very different from from today you know with Alexandra and and I started I think with Alexander the Great because as I started reading about Alexander to me Alexander from what from least from what I've seen was was the most unique historical personality that ever lived in my opinion wow that's quite a statement and well III say it because because because not only what he accomplished in in in 12 years which which is which is remarkable you know and I actually started to develop an essay which which really didn't go too far trying to understand 12 years of history Nazi Germany was a 12 year right the thousand-year Reich went from 1933 when Hitler may his name be erased became Chancellor to 1945 so we understand you know today everything happens very very quickly but in history 12 years is really a very short period of time but we can see see from those two periods that in 12 years the entire the entire direction of world history can change dramatically and can impact for for thousands of years now we don't know what the impact will be of the events of the 1930s and 40s but we know that you know it post the Holocaust we have the State of Israel it's a whole it's a whole new history so certainly we see that impact you know even from the you know from the on the short-sighted view that we have of events just going back 75 80 years when you look back at Alexander and I try to bring it out try to show through secular sources who he was and what he accomplished in 12 years and then all the Talmudic sources that that had buttress the secular historians and and try to bring out his impact on world history and and it's a phenomenon I really think it was a once in history phenomena so I was fascinated by it because last summer summer of 2018 I was actually in Pella which is where he's from and there's a whole tomb to his father you see the wealth you see the grandeur and then we saw his statue of course but but he what's interesting about Alexander the Great is that in Hebrew he's actually called Alexander the mass and I know there's a lot of issues about where Macedonia is now I don't want to go down the political highway but I think that that's that happens to be significant because maybe for the world he's Alexander the Great and he really is a great personality and you show that that he's really a unique the combination of the the education that he got the time period he was living in the dreams of his father really to take over the Persian Empire which he's the one who ends up doing and the whole the entire switch from the Mediterranean now becoming the power moving away from the Fertile Crescent area of Persia Babylon etc and a huge shift that really you know then continues with the Romans now into the Mediterranean area being being the source of all that he's an absolutely fascinating character but I think it occurs to me that maybe in in Israel we put it geographically not so much as personality Alexander the Great is speaking about the man's person but at the you know the Macedonian is already talking like because maybe we're here in the Middle East so we see the geopolitics we'd look to our West and we see one thing Greek in Rome Greece in Rome we look to our East and we see well today we don't see anything great but you know there is a great empires that originally and and our sources Avraham Avinu is coming from the east so we're right here in the middle and I think that perhaps even the terminology that we use for Alexander the Great to some degree reflects that but now he has a very important meeting here I mean we don't really know what he's doing here in Judea so much not mentioned yet he is a meeting with one of the high priests and and I think that that significant the fact that that story comes down and maybe you know because you did a lot of research on that perhaps tell my listeners about this very this very important meeting and if you think it's true or if it's just kind of showing trying to give a message across okay so just just just to go back for a second in terms of and we'll get to the meeting meeting in a second the reason why-y-y Alexander it really is such a fascinating personality is because here's somebody who decided at a young age that he was going to conquer the entire civilized world and you know recall as I bring down in the book he was he he spent three years studying under Aristotle his father sent him to Aristotle and and Aristotle was without a doubt the premier not just philosopher of his time Aristotle dabbled in everything he was a scientist he was he was you know ethics you know a look Aristotle studied at every university today and he he was sent specifically you know he was his tutor he went with his friends you know there's a whole group of students went but it was all all the whole curriculum was set for Alexander and that was three intense years that he just spent day after day after day with Aristotle so he is the one that took Greek philosophy Oh everything that we know about Greece and and all that came out of Greece in the civilised world he's the one that brought that through the entire world and and what made him unique was number one he he never lost the battle and he won and he won and he won and he won anyone and he won and he won never lost but this is all part of the prophecy this is this is you know in in the in the Book of Daniel the prophecy of Alexander is mentioned at least six seven times that there would someone would come from that direction and would sweep across the entire world and conquer the entire world so it's it's all prophesized in in the book of Daniel and what Alexander was trying to do according to many historians not all historians was he was really trying to unify the entire world under one umbrella he didn't force ideologies on other people he accepted local customs he accepted local religions he was trying to create something totally new something totally different that would unify the entire civilized world at the time obviously his death you know his his his death at an early age we died when he was only 32 you know prevented him from accomplishing that but his influence lives on and and so now as as he's sweeping across Turkey and coming down the the Mediterranean coast where he has some extremely difficult battles including the battle in entire which of course is a city in in Lebanon which we know very well from here it took him it took him almost a year to capture the island of Tyre brutal brutal battle he would he was he would he was a brutal warrior this was not you know the guy you wanted to sit down and have a cup of coffee with you would rather sit and drink with him because he was a the makedonia --nz it's very interesting the makedonia pnes were known as the backwards people they were always in the shadow of Greece they were they were farmers there was a rough mountainous terrain backwards is what they were and but they were great drinkers and after the battles at night I mean he would some some historians speculate that his death was caused caused by by a liver ailment from all the all the wild drinking that he did so I actually read a couple of years ago or even just last year because his body apparently didn't decompose for a week so there's someone I think in Israel who has a theory that he had some virus I don't remember what it was called where he was actually in a coma for that week they thought he was dead but he really wasn't he was just kind of comatose and that's why his body didn't decompose and they only died at the end of that week so there's a lot of or some kind of plague I don't know some there was something going on there's a lot even today 2,400 years later still trying to figure out you know what he died of which which in itself is fascinating it is absolutely fascinating and and we we don't know where he is buried today we don't we don't have the tomb which is interesting because what not in Alexandria he wasn't eventually taken tell exam three oh the city that he builds of course early starts to build on his name it's it's it's unclear it's unclear what it's interesting because one of one of Alexander's great heroes was Cyrus and and Cyrus is called in the Bible the the Messiah because it was Cyrus who allowed the Jewish people to come back and rebuild the second temple and Alexander idealized Cyrus and when he got to Persia he visited Cyrus - and Cyrus's tomb is extent it's it's intact and people visit it and you can visit it you can go and you can visit it and Alexander did that we're not sure exactly what Alexander was was buried he was scheduled to be buried in Pella which you mentioned you had visited in the second section I write about how his one of his successors Tommy them at the King King Tommy who who started the the dynasty 350 year dynasty in Egypt he hijacked Alexander's body had him buried I think first in Memphis probably moved to Alexandria it's not it's not it's not we don't know where where it is today but getting back to your original question I kind of went off tangent there so so Alexander sweeps down seeps down the coast we're not really sure exactly of the chronology but he has these battles I mentioned and Tyre he had again you know coming to you know tying it to current events he had a difficult battle in Gaza he's coming down the coast and there's a governor of Gaza again all this was under Persian rule but it was a local governor who said no problem I can take I'm on up on a high plateau apparently part of Gaza was on a high plateau and and I have the high ground no problem so Alexander was was extremely innovative and creative he was so quick on his feet he assessed the situation and if he had a plan that needed to be changed he would change it on the fly so what he did was he built a parallel city built it up was on the same level playing field and what he did to the governor was just I mean he just after he captured him he he he wrote him in a chariot around Gaza and until the governor obviously obviously died so you know we're coming down to Gaza he's going into into Egypt so either either he came into the Land of Israel to Eretz Israel to the Land of Israel as he was coming down the coast before Gaza or maybe after Egypt it's it's not clear and and he encounters an enemy of the Jewish people the the coup thien's who are bitter enemies at the time of the Jewish people and they kind of whisperings ear you know there's a people here and they're their loyal subjects of the Persian government and they're not going to accept your rule and so you know Alexander's got this bias and and he hears that there's a temple and and and a he he paid homage to local religion so when he went to Egypt as opposed to the Persians who tried to instill install their religion there they're black and whites religions are asti and religion on Egypt he went in and he sacrificed according to Egyptian ritual and that was a part of his his wisdom almost is his understanding of how to how to bring people to him as it you know he could fight against them but once he won he brought them towards himself towards himself so so so he's coming now and and it doesn't look good because you know he's now together with an enemy of the Jewish people and apparently the Jewish people hear about this the leadership hears about this and and the high priest understands that something has to happen there's a big dispute as exactly you know who the identity was according to authentic Jewish sources it was shimon hatzadik Shimon the righteous who was not yet the high priest but he was the grandson of the high priest and and there's ways to explain why he was called the high priest kind of bring that out in the book and and Alexander's coming from one direction and Shimon the righteous is coming from another direction and shimon hatzadik is the righteous is is not just coming alone he's coming with an entourage and he does something that that really is unique in the relationship between Emperor's and Jews very often and we see it today as much as the Jewish people are sometimes on the forefront of politics whether it's in the United States or in Europe there's a lot happening behind the scenes and a lot of the real stuff is happening quietly you know with diplomacy and and and that's been a trend in Jewish history which kind of try to bring out in the book that has you know there's there's kinds of this behind the scenes you know not because of lack of transparency because it's just it's an approach it's it's an approach you know kind of you know we're gonna do our thing but when it comes time to deal with it with it with the world at large you know let's do it quietly let's do respectfully there's a modesty that's inherent in the Jewish people that should be a part of Jewish leadership you know as much as we know we know that we don't know so much and so you know sometimes you look at leaders today it's not a critique but you know there's sometimes seems to be a lack of modesty the modesty is an integral Jewish concept that needs to be a part of Jewish leadership as well so what comes to mind is Harry Truman who was not necessarily going to recognize Israel in 1948 the United States was very wary because they thought we were not gonna last and a friendship with Danny Jacobs with a Jewish guy apparently is really what turns him and that's behind the scenes and it's not his chief of staff it's a friendship it's a relationship it's a trust and I think that exactly is it was a great example of something with what you just said correct and and and that and that example is interesting because we were all raised that you know I speak for you know many of us you know with Harry Truman the buck stops here is a great hero of American history you know I mean you know here is a man you know who really went against all of his advisers you know he fired his secretaries they quit because of this he went against the entire State Department and it was as you said this relationship is kind of behind the scenes you know approaching him in different directions yet on the other hand we know from the tapes and the writings that it that Harry Truman had an anti-semitic bents he was not like this you know this this you know this great you know lover of the Jewish people inherently classic some of my best friends are Jewish as you know but I don't necessarily like the Jews and you can make that split so look just getting back to the book so what happens to so shimon hatzadik comes with his entourage so in this case this is not a modest come like knocking on the tenth door this is a statement this is a statement and and it could be I mean you know one can conjecture that that that that they understood shimon hatzadik the righteous and the entourage and you know the rest of the leadership of the Jewish people unders you know they heard enough about Alexander to understand that this is this wasn't somebody that you could just come and just you know you you needed to kind of make a statement you needed to show you know who the Jewish people were and so they're coming with the entourages and and and the Jewish people are have have flames and they're carrying flames and I bring out the book that that there is a deep spiritual reason behind this they were coming with you know trying to tap into tap into some some level of bringing God into the picture and holiness into the picture that kind of counteract you know what was coming for in the other direction and and then something happens which you know again secular historians will say did it really happen that there are and I bring out in the book to to secular Christian sources from the early centuries of the Common Era that that buttress the story that Alexander sees this entourage this very impressive entourage it's it's is they've been they've been both coming at night it's now daybreak the Sun is coming up you know it I guess everybody senses there's something that's going to happen here and in Alexander Assis Shimon Simon the righteous and he jumps off his horse and he bows down and and he's never done this he has never done this to anybody ever and and in fact what's interesting is is is the makedonia pnes in general were against bowing the the persians were bowers they bowed to the king alexander wasn't into that he didn't need anyone to bow down to him they were they were they were against it there was some kind of like as powerful as he was and he believed he was a god he believed he was a deity he really didn't some level believe that his mother instilled this into him because she believed that she came from zeus but she was a descendant of Zeus oh he was instilled in childhood that he had some kind of a deity level to him and and he vows down and everyone you know looks at him and remember when Alexander travelled he traveled with with an entire entourage you were in those days when Kings traveled even into battle they traveled with cities they traveled with historians and architects and scientists and painters and and they brought their wives and their families and you know an Alexander had a lot of very very close friends who were with him since the time that he was with Aristotle and they all stayed with him and they said you know they basically said to him you know Alexander but you know how could you bow down to it and Alexander said that that when I go into battle any battle that I go into I dream the night before and this is the figure that I see leading me into battle because of this episode there's an entire shift in how he views the Jewish people and and because of this episode the rabbis at the time allow people to name their children Alexander and so now Alexander is a fairly popular Jew name and sometimes it's its end there sometimes there's all kinds of variations today but that's the source of why when you see someone named Alexander today and he happens to be Jewish that's the source of it but what he doesn't do because of this meaning is insist that idols be put in the Jewish temple and because we have here also a religious issue okay and there are those who will say that really our battles with the Greeks and that's the importance of the holiday of clonic is the first time that they're not just coming after us because we're in the way or we have a piece of property that they need to be put into their empire but it's actually a a religious war and it's and what if I've already mentioned Khanna quote a lot of people forget is that climacus dish it's much a civil war among the Jewish people among those who want to become Hellenized who were very attracted to that way of life and the gymnasiums etc and less to formal judaism or however want to call it so is that part of what happens here as well that alexander doesn't insist that the temple in jerusalem become some kind of outpost for greek whatever religion he's promoting from from greece yeah yeah he did not partially I think because of this this historic encounter but also because that that wasn't Alexander's methodology he it really wasn't his methodology you know he he kind of tapped into whatever higher power he could I mean you know he sacrificed this way he sacrificed that way it's unclear exactly what he did in the temple at the time we have some sources that show us that V events ISA that's brought in one of the sections who argued against different peoples that came with complaints to Alexander but the Jewish people took them to the temple it's it's it's unclear there's some sources that would say that they read to him the prophecies of Daniel and and you know and said to him that this is all prophesized that that's that's it's a cloudy issue I mean I didn't you know I kind of bring different sources I don't to resolve it I think it's too weighty it's the same way I bring you know there are some sources that are kind of discounted even by Jewish historians authentic Jewish historians that Aristotle himself at the end of his life recanted his philosophy and and accepted you know the ethics at least of the Torah of the Bible but you know again you know there's letters that Aristotle wrote but it's it's you know I kind of bring it out so that people can explore it subsequently it's it's it's too weighty a subject to really make it make a real conclusion what's fascinating about that time period though is everybody is a god person in some way sometimes multiple gods and I cuz I think a lot of times today you know you have atheist I mean if people just don't believe they're just scientists they don't believe in any kind of higher power but but in that time there was no there was probably no such thing it really is an atheist somebody believed in something but you touched on something here it is really a theme that comes out in your book that I think it's important to mention here and you're everyone guys you're just gonna have to read the book is a certain weariness on the part of the sages if exposing too much of the Torah to other people now there's a whole section I'm told me on the on the the cell you said who is the one who gets the Torah has the sages 70 or 72 it's not really clear - for the first time translate the Torah into Greece into Greek which in itself it's controversial that's a good thing or a bad thing to expose the Tauride now all of you listening here those of you are familiar with the Bible I would imagine that most of you have not read it in the Hebrew have not read it in the original language you reading it mainly in English translated with a certain agenda depending on who's translating it and a lot of the meaning is going to get lost and this is something that we've talked about beforehand so how are you and this is this seems fairly clear that the sages and it just clicked with me when you said that perhaps they read Daniel to Alexander so there's a danger inherent in here in opening up certain of the Torah on the one hand we've been told to bring the Torah to the world and the ethics specifically and the morality and the faith and family aspect of the Torah to the world on the other hand there are certain things perhaps that it's wise not to expose so how do you see that just in general because it's through the generations and it's a lot of stages with Hadrian with vision with a lot of the different Emperor's and I would imagine also philosophers are we supposed to be getting into philosophical discussions religious discussions with others this is a very broad topic just ask you to answer that because I think it's one of the themes that permeates the book and for me was one of the more fascinating aspects of the book yeah I think what you see in some of the encounters that are detailed in the book is that numerous encounters were forced upon the Jewish people had they had their way they might not have had those encounters on the other hand so you know there's a whole section here I have a luxurious of the south who are the wise men of the south Jewish wise men of the south we're not exactly sure sure who they are you know what their position is within the Jewish people at the time but they're obviously well versed in the Torah and and in philosophy and it's clear this encounter was not something that they volunteered for but rather Alexander and and and their sources that Alexander did this in India he did this in all different kinds of places he would he would it was natural because he was a philosopher as a student of Aristotle he was the warrior philosopher I mean he was a philosopher so wherever he went he he sought wisdom that's part of the Greek ethos you know wisdom beauty wisdom so in this encounter you you really see the reluctance of the elders of the South they they they make their points and and their point accentuates what they feel is is the divide the the the great divide between the values of that Aristotle brings to the table and the values that they have from from the Torah so there is a tug and play I think there's a great reluctance there's a reluctance to kind of reveal deeper wisdom because deeper wisdom not properly understood with the background and all that can be dangerous you know it's it's like any anything you need to go level by level by level until you get to you know the deeper wisdom of any of any discipline especially the Torah which is which is god-given on the other hand which you mentioned is is is there's this idea which I also try to bring out in the book is that there's this concept that the the Kings and the Emperor's their kings and and we call them kings and there's the king of kings there's there's God and so what in Hebrew what's called mullet it's called kingship and it ends and the the rulers in in history in secular history are kind of a many a mini truncated kingdom of God they they were given power by God wasn't it's not just random the power that they had was god-given so so that there is a mission of the Jewish people to reveal God's kingship in the world one of the ways you do it is by touching kingship down here on earth and and showing kingship Torah values Jewish values modes of behavior so there is this tremendous tug and play we you know Judaism as we know is not out to convert the world that's not our mission our mission really is to be a light unto the nation and and I think the book shows that there's different ways to do that sometimes it's you know it's simply if you're as part in part of a non-jewish environment it's it's it's it's incumbent upon a Jew to represent the Jewish people even if it's you know a in at the workplace at a social event whatever it is never forgetting that that we have inter eternal values that we need to keep and pass on to the next generation so there is a tug and play there is a tug and play but you know you you know it is brought out in the relationship between Antoninus and revenue Hooda the the the Prince Judah the Prince who were both very very strong rulers buted of the prince you know what was was a was a king at the time of Israel he wasn't the biblical King but he had he had power and he had a such a unique relationship with with talmud calls him Antoninus I kind of bring out that there's two possibilities and kind of side with the Marcus Aurelius approach that that's who Antoninus of the Talmud was I heard it it was I learned that it was septimus severus and there's all kinds of different ideas about who the emperor is and just to put it into historical context review dynasty lives at the end of the second century and and and is responsible for redacting the Mishnah for a very practical reason is that many of the rabbis who were teaching the oral law have been slaughtered by the Romans over that terrible second century is it hate if it's Hadrian Rabbi Akiva of our color revolt in the 130s too many of the others that we just read about on Yom Kippur liturgy the 10 the 10 great rabbis who were killed so here he is friendly apparently to a great degree with the Roman Empire being forced to some degree to put down the oral law something that was supposed to have not been put down but because he has no choice because the teachers are being killed so you better write it down and setting by doing that setting a whole chain of events which were still to some degree dealing with 18 hundred years later and maybe certain things about the mission and the Talmud that were locked in that were supposed to have been made more kept more flexible so this is huge I happened to write down the Oral Law is actually huge yet here he is very powerful very wealthy apparently living up in the galley and friendly to the point you bring out in your book that the emperor is getting advice from him and how to do certain things so this is a fascinating personality and it's fascinating time period in Jewish history it is a pivotal pivotal period as you correctly mentioned and Judah the prince youwhen uh C what was a visionary and again I tried to show that you know this is the guiding hand of history no matter what the Jewish people have gone through through the millennium you know the pogroms the massacres the suffering which is you know part and parcel of Jewish history the guiding hand of history was always there God was always there at pivotal moments you know and and and ensuring the continuity of the Jewish people at all times in all places and and and here is the head of the Jewish people he was a visionary as you mentioned he was extremely wealthy so he had power you know he held sway over the Jewish people at that time and and here is the Emperor who he forms a relationship the Talmud you know has a story again you know it's a story we can take it at face value we can take it as an allegory that that this relationship started when they were infants and the Talmud relates that story how the babies were switched in order to save Judah and the Seas father and so there was this tremendous bond from childhood and not only did Antoninus let's call them but you know Marcus Aurelius and I think I think Marcus Aurelius kind of fits the timeframe Marcus Aurelius was also he is the the even more than Alexander in history as a Roman leader he is he is called a philosopher cake his book meditations continues to sell it sold millions and millions of copies it's read by movers and shakers today it's it's Bill Clinton's favorite book and and he wrote this while he was he did not want to go and fight but he had no choice he was a philosopher and he wrote this meditations which is kind of like a today you would call like a self-help book you know with some but I wouldn't called deep deep concepts but it's it was like a self-help book that he wrote every night after after battles for himself and then it was published and and so he was a philosopher king but somehow he understood that that Judah the prince had a deeper wisdom that he and he had and and and according to the Talmudic sources he became a student of Judah present--and and relied upon him for personal advice political advice intellectual advice just a fascinating fascinating relationship you don't find too many secular sources for this and and I would conjecture that that it just ran so counter to the biased opinions of historians they couldn't grab their hands around such a relationship how could this be because Marcus Aurelius Antoninus whoever he was you know was such a strong personality in his own right how could he have had this relationship with the leader of the Jewish people um but yet we you know we we see we see through there are authentic Jewish sources that had happened and and again it wasn't that that this was a public display in fact it was it was private the Talmud has a story how they were their houses were connected with a tunnel and it was all secrets and it only came out afterwards that they had a relationship so so you know Judah no see the prince on the one hand you know he he went public with redacting the the Mishnah because he was such a visionary in his relationship with the emperor that was all quiet and modest and and under the table when you read a lot of history of Rome like spqr by Mary beard I think she mentions Judea and like one paragraph I mean here you know in I was reading it as a Judean roots and for us Rome is this huge empire that sits here for hundreds of years that destroys the temple and then the buckle or revolt it just really makes our life miserable for so long which doesn't even necessarily end when it rolls into the Byzantine Empire I mean it really hundreds and hundreds of years of Rome just on top of us and then to read this book and see that for Rome or for Roman historians were like not even important it was it was really quite shocking but it was also I open and very important and I think that you're absolutely right that's why they're not gonna write about this red ship even if they knew about it because why would there be a tendency to say that Judea or the Jews had any kind of influence on this powerful Empire of course layering is I've been to Rome quite a few times and I live in Judea I go look at the arch of Titus and I live in Judea and Rome there's a great place to visit but the Roman Empire is long gone and I learned and I think I've spoken about this in the Coliseum which was built with money that the that they took from the temple when they destroyed the temple the sages had said at the time that one day where the Romans played their awful games meaning the gladiator games we were learning Torah and I pulled out my my Torah and learned Torah in the Colosseum with my family so that the words of the sages from so long ago in very difficult and desperate times would have come true I mean did come true at least for now so you know as the Jews we take a very very long view of history which is why we have to know our history and the ups and the downs but I think that your book here is really filled in a very important little piece of it which is the friendships and the influence and you did attach it to a tremendous amount of research in order to do this but I just want to mention that I think it's fascinating you called the book the Emperor's and the Jews why not the Emperor's and the rabbis or why not the Emperor's and the sages why the Jews well I think I think it's because you know obviously the relationship here what we're going to have sources for our leading personalities but but but I think the rabbi's simply are representatives of the Jewish people they're they they're they're tapping into the heart and soul of the Jewish people at the time and that's true leadership you know in in in Jewish sources the King King David King Solomon are called the heart of the people the lathe the heart at the heart of the people they they they tap into so you know who the people are where they're coming from what they need etc etc and and and so it's really the relationship between the Jewish people it's the rabbi's who are the personalities because that's the sources that we have but it but you know I bring it out and I actually bring it out in the name of the Lavater Rebbe of Schneerson who wrote that that that every person in every Jew has to be and can be a representative of the Jewish people at some time or place and and naturally you know the philosophy of that whole movement of Chabad that has centers all around the world you don't have to be this is this you know I I have a niece who just completed her army service and so like many Israeli soldiers after they served they need to you know bring it out of town out of town so she says she is she spent the first part of her trip which as Americans you know got a big kick out of it and Vietnam so she's in Vietnam okay so you know we were raised you know I still like to everybody running to me at nominally how could you go to Vietnam the meal I massacre I mean the re generation Vietnam is not a place to go to on vacation but the different world she started in Vietnam and now she's in Cambodia Cambodia the killing fields the in the Khmer Rouge but you know as it may you know that there there are now three Labov ochobot centers in Vietnam you know there's there's in it so it's it's it's and their representatives and and they have a responsibility their responsibility you know the Jewish people have a responsibility towards the rest of the world so that that's why it's really the Emperor's and the Jews it's it's you and I it's you and I it's it's every it's every single Jew in the world today that has that responsibility in that mission so I'm gonna add a little something at the risk of embarrassing you that you technically could be called rabbi and you told me not to introduce you like that and I think that when you talk about a modesty that's inherent in Judaism so I think perhaps your choice of the title reflected the way you see things as well like you don't have to have necessarily the title as you just said every Jew can make it can make a difference but we also have to keep it down and understand that we are really we are really God's representatives on earth and that he's the ultimate to whom we owe fealty and and the honor and that we have the privilege of every once in a while being able to do something that changes the world or at least brings the Tory into the world which is what it was all about and why we stood at Sinai so long ago so I really want to thank you re Lieberman for your book and can you tell my listeners where they can get a hold of it yeah the the book first of all the Emperor's and the Jews Lieberman searched that and you'll come to Amazon so it's it's it's on Amazon it's found in Jewish book stores throughout North America Israel and the United Kingdom so and you could always I guess contact Eve if you want to get a copy and she'll contact me and and I'd love for you to be able to read it and enjoy it and just a suggestion and I don't know if you traveled at all but if somebody's doing some kind of symposium or some kind of lecture series I think this is a fascinating addition not necessarily giving answers because a lot of what we need now or is more questions and to ask why and why certain things happened in our history and that's why we ended up where we are today so I think that you would be great you know addition to some if someone had some kind of educational panel as well so thank you so much for joining me today on rejuvenation on the land of Israel Network [Music] this week on the high flyer show Yishai tells the story of how he came back to Israel you know what I felt right there I felt this is my son there are times in life we just don't know and then there are times in life when you know and I knew this was my son and I want to tell you in three weeks mark and I were living in beta we packed up and we were out of New York City and the rest is history right that's the shiz fleischer show on the Land of Israel Network that's the Land of Israel dot-com [Music] hi everybody hope you enjoyed the interview it is now late on Saturday night December 7th 2019 tenth day of Kislev 5780 super busy week coming up just wanted to wrap up the show tell you guys some of where what I'll be doing in the next few weeks in case you're in Israel December 26th I have a Chanukah trip for when Israel fund in Western being I mean a lot of it is going to be jeeping off-road seeing some of the smaller communities the so called outpost that you cannot get to in a car definitely not in a bus but not even in a car and that area of Western Binyamin it was a real stronghold and the place where the husband Ian's yes you could say wage their guerrilla war from so a lot of meanings going to that place on Hanukkah that'll be December 26th and then on January 19th and 23rd 2020 during the mid semester week what's called ushiro week I will also be running two trips or one and so fund they are not yet advertised and go on the winners will fun site to sign up for the Hanukkah one and I suggest that you do that soon the 19th and 23rd are going to be going up in the next few days I've written them up the 19th is going to be Eastern Gush Etzion Herodian a stay bar cheese workshop and seeing some of the dogs that they trained for the army and for rescue and ceramics and we're gonna and a great lunch we're gonna be having a really great day we're going to end up out in the Oregon farms of Jeremy and re and the 23rd during a trip that I've never done before from Philistia to Judea starting the day with Anita Tucker one of the one of my friends who was thrown out of Gush Katif of Gaza in 2005 I'm gonna be visiting her in her new community or so darkness or khazzani of course still hoping to get back to Gush Katif one day never give up that hope then we're gonna go to the Museum of Philistine culture yes there is a museum like that in our stud have a fabulous lunch at a gourmet dairy restaurant and tell Shahar gonna go to the tell Tuffy which is ancient that drive-through Emma Kyla the olive alley where David and Goliath fought it out you can see what the theme is here Judy and Philistia and we're still here and they're not so that's pretty cool we're gonna end the day in Judea at the kosher winery so that's gonna be January 23rd and those should be some really great trips but in the meantime as you know heading out to the States later this week some personal stuff the only day that I have really available to come to your community is Tuesday December 17th I will be leaving Long Island and a heading out down towards Baltimore so anywhere in the New York New Jersey Philly Delaware Baltimore area Washington DC you've got some meetings there and the main thing of course is to be the Shabbat skull in residence at Bates villa in Baltimore that Shabbat and then head home for Hanukkah so I know it's cold out there and planning planning to have I hope a meaningful time lots of meetings set up we'll see who I can grab to interview to keep you guys on the ball with with a lot of the fascinating people out there it's really tough week here though just wow almost exactly a week ago right now the there was a terrible car accident the son and daughter-in-law and two of the grandchildren of very good friends of mine were waiting in a light doing it all right when they their car was smashed into by an 18 year old Arab driving at a ridiculously high speed initially it was thought that it was just an accident now I understand that they're looking into it as possible terror-related the idea had come up and then had been knocked out but apparently something in the Aeropress this weekend about how they are going to use seeming like seemingly traffic accidents as another method of waging their terror and something that is very very difficult to stop so hopefully that's going to be looked into again but in one second a family's life has just totally changed chippie their their daughter-in-law was killed murdered maybe we could say with her three week old daughter like just impossible to wrap that around no um they were buried together a few hours later innovates off their town in the shamone frame the father of the young family and the son of my good friends is in the hospital with a broken spine and it looks like he's going to be paralyzed still praying still hoping that there'll be a surgery they can fix it but that's what it's looking like right now and the 12 year old son etai suffered very very severe brain damage and the fact that he's lived for a week is considered really miraculous but if we're waiting on the path of miracles so let's keep that one going so if you are inclined to say prayers and there's been prayers that have been said all week and Kalla making over 500 people including myself said prayers at the special ceremony that we have when it's there's nothing just that's nothing so even making a lot to making the special bread that we have for Shabbat many many of us did that yesterday and we take a piece of that take a piece of challah we make a special prayer and that's when you can also ask for extra things and so we did that for their full recovery the family of course is never going to fully recover and but what the meantime we're hoping that the two of them who did survive the car crash will make full recoveries and so if you can and say Psalms 4 if ryeom's v Moshe van Shula meets via and for the 12 year old italic of been Sapporo when someone is sick in Judaism you and you you make blessings for their well-being you actually use their name the son of the mother used the mother's name see poor is no longer alive because mother is no longer life but using her name and in hoping that he has a miraculous and full recovery and that the family somehow has the strength to put it back together and so a lot of things that might have bugged me this week or annoyed me this week did not because on the scale of what was going on they were just stupid they were just really stupid and nothing like sitting with good friends in the waiting room of the ICU to totally put everything into proportion and into perspective and so wishing all of you a very very very safe week recovery to anybody who's ill or hurting and when it comes to faith and when it comes to God's plan I have absolutely no clue these are such fine people the family is so fine in so many ways and does so much for other people in their community in Chicago with a young couple went to teach Torah and to be really emissaries from Israel for a few years and just really the kind of family that like you wish for yourselves and you wish to be friends with just living Judaism Israel Torah and their friends and their family so nothing makes any sense and I guess that that's what faith is is just realizing that anything that we try and make sense of we can't because God has a plan that's much bigger than any of us but I guess that's better they're not having faith and thinking that this is all just totally random and meaningless either way in a tough week but I will continue to say prayers and whatever you guys can do out there there's also a fund me campaign for some of the things that are gonna have to be done now to take care of the other three kids who are home the three young kids who I don't even think yet understand that their mother's not coming home that their baby sister is gone and that when it'll be months before their father and their brother come home and God willing they showed so that's also something can be done to help and and just pray that um this doesn't happen anymore so with that Eve Harrow on rejuvenation for the Land of Israel basically telling us all to count our blessings so thanks to Tabitha and to Ben and hope I see some of you on the other side and of course you can always write to me Eve at the Land of Israel comm and check out the website Eve Harrow comm so take care of you buddy thanks so much for tuning in you don't know how much that means to me that you take the time to listen to the interviews that I do to some of the monologues and some of the rams that I have and and I appreciate it really from the bottom of my heart so be well chef watts of have a great week and goodbye for now [Music] you're listening to the land