Rejuvenation: Show and Tell - 2019 @ Tel Shilo

[Music] hi everybody Eve Harrow rejuvenation on the land of Israel Network I am in one of my favorite places on an absolutely beautiful morning it is Thursday June 20th 2019 and I'm up in Tel sheilo grabbing dr. Scott's rippling just as they're finishing up this year's dig just doing some restoration work and thing today is gonna tell us about that so first of all Scott great to see you again thanks hey if it's great to be with you so I interviewed you last year you had some incredible finds what went on here in the last month okay well we had a very large team working here for the last four and a half weeks and we just have a couple of days left we've continued to expose the storage rooms you can look down at those right now from the period of the Miche gun and beneath those we have earlier storage doors so apparently the Israelites are continuing to use the infrastructure that was already here okay so what time period are we talking about them and when we say Michigan we say Tabernacle the time at the period of the judges somewhere between like when do you think Joshua comes in and this because I know the dates are one of the big controversial issues okay so we see Joshua coming in earlier maybe maybe in the 14th century beginning of the 14th century what we would call lb to late bronze to and continuing into the iron 1 period all right and what is that based on because there are others who will say that it's more like a - 1250 like a hundred years later a 13th century doesn't fit in with the Jewish sources that say that the tabernacle was here in Shiloh for 369 years and if the whole business moves out more towards minus 1,000 and ends up in Jerusalem so actually - 1408 works nicely with that but other archaeological sites that say like Hut's or where Joshua there's a layer of destruction from around - 1250 - 1260 just kind of throws a wrinkle into that so what are you basing your earlier date on okay well first of all those 13th century dates I think we can attribute to Marinette that we have the famous Merneptah Stella he's taking credit for destroying these these cities here and I think he did just as he said that's not the Israelite conquest I think we've got to look more to the end of the 15th century beginning of the 14th century and that's where we're finding the sites that we've excavated at I Kirby McCarthy here at Shiloh where we're finding the evidence ok and Joshua's altar just to throw something and it was in my head well you've got these scarabs that are inside the ashes up on mount a vowel that are also showing dates around 13th century how you explaining that ok there's also scarabs in that ash from the 15th century there's a scarab there from top mozi the third that the excavators are called and those that published it assumed it must be commemorative because that had to be in the 13th century what I'm saying is underneath that rectangular altar Ani bud there's a round altar at the perfect geometric Center that is older and that's where the tempos of the 3rd scarab comes from and that's 15th century ok so basically I just want our listeners to know that it's just not clear there's an unclear and this falls not just into the science of archaeology but into some biblical denial and a lot of stuff out there which also bleeds into politics and the rights of certain people to be here and who is the history so this is a very very big topic but what you're doing here in sheilo which has I mean it's just so talked about in the Bible especially in the book of Judges and this place is on the map in so many ways is of critical importance in kind of filling out this picture of which we know not enough that's right and just a few feet from where we are last season we excavated a ceramic palm granite and like tomorrow or the next day there's an article coming out here in Israel and Judea Samaria research studies on this important palm grant now why is the pomegranate matter when the Israelites came into the land God told them you're going to have dates and figs and grapes and so forth seven fruits but only one of the fruits goes into the presence of God and the Holy of Holies and that's the palm granite what's on the hem of the priests garments bells and palm Granite's so now we have found two pomegranates here at Shiloh very interesting right so here the Bible talks about a place that sacred a place where the tabernacle was now we're finding a material culture that matches that what I would call verisimilitude you want to explain that word ok so when you read it in source and then you find exactly what you would expect to find for example a site like Sheila when people came to pay their tithe in biblical times they couldn't go to Tabernacle org and make a secure online donation they couldn't write a check they you know they brought commodity so what do we find the entire perimeter of the site has storage rooms palm Granite's that's a priestly Tabernacle motif we're finding those types of things so the bone deposit and you know the bone deposit here two-thirds of the bones are from the right side of the animal which is the priestly portion 130s from the left we start adding all of those things up and we get a verisimilitude a material culture that matches the literary description now somebody might say that your background as a Christian you're coming in here expecting to find certain things okay and that's been one of the criticisms if you will of Biblical Archaeology already for well over a century is you come in with your Bible your hand and you're looking to prove that book where do you fit on that well I think the Bible is a serious historical document we use text from Egypt Amarna tablets the the Oxyrhynchus papyri we go up to Mesopotamian we're dealing with the literature from there I think it's ridiculous not to use the the biblical text as well and when it comes to Sheol oh that's all we have it's not mentioned in Mesopotamia or in Egypt so of course I'm going to use the literary description I'm just saying that I'm finding that it matches what we would expect it to be so you were telling me I'm gonna drive up here about that rights the bones with the right side that okay you Strela Finkelstein who is one of the big if not the head of the school that's really the both the biblical critics as we called them the minimalists from tel aviv university he dug here in 1979 and he came up with a lot a lot of bones and now you told me that you've gone back now and seen a little line that perhaps he is not necessarily a steeped in the Bible as you are might have missed the meaning of that the right side right professor Finkelstein is brilliant I have no no doubt about that his presuppositions are different from mine and maybe his interpretations might be different he worked here for four seasons in the 1980s so less than 5% of the site had been excavated and that's why we came back bringing now a major expedition with our newer technologies we're opening up a larger area and then reinterpreting some of that data and the one that you mentioned is that bone deposit so an area D on the east side of the side there's a massive five ISA about the size of a gymnasium full of bones the bones are only from the biblical sacrificial system in my view the Israelites as I said arrived at the beginning of the 14th century and that's what we have and the pottery in the five ISA matches that as well the line you're referring to he states that in their final analysis two thirds of the bones come from the right side of the animal one third from the left side of the animal now of course he didn't have an explanation for that being a Bible reader I do leviticus 7 tells us that the right side of the animal is the priests portion that's who's living here is she love the people like Hannah alo and elkanah they don't live here they're making pilgrimages here several times a year the priests are the ones living here so give me another explanation other than the one that I just gave you of why out of a hundred thousand bones two thirds are from the right side and one-third is from the left side and now you said that when you send your bones and you find what seven thousand every dig down to the lab you're going to ask them specifically for that analysis that's right starting this season I'm going to include that in our final analysis so we're always learning you know it's so fun and rewarding to do this type of work because every day I learned something new and the the material culture here is so rich and we're we're learning from each other all the time so Finkelstein also found burnt almonds and raisins right if I'm not mistaken raisins of course being grapes and sheilo is still and we were looking out now on vineyards it's a beautiful wine wine area that whole field of botanical archaeology which is something that he really didn't have so much back then that you've got now the analysis so when you say you found ceramic pomegranates have you also found pomegranate seeds or like what have you found in terms of the food that they actually ate that's a great question of course we understand the the meat that they're consuming it's four percent pig bone in the pre-islamic period our stratum a DIN stratum seven when we move into stratum six stratum five stratum four into an Israelite occupation it drops below one percent and that's very interesting we see a shift there in in their their diet and their kin sumption of meat because according to Jewish law we don't eat pig and you've got wild boar all over the place here and other Canaanite altars you've got a lot of borer present but that's a clear shift that that's taken place now as far as their their beds vegetarian diet what they're consuming their funnel our floral diet we do floatation in all of our low sigh each day so that means we get a bunch of dirt from that particular locus we fill that pail with water stir it up and the seeds float to the top and then we have a special mesh that we collect those in they dry overnight and then we add the tag the locust the square of the pail and then we were able to send those off for testing where it's still early in the dig to get results on that but we'll know pretty soon any guesses like based on what you found last year well and I'm saying that we're going to do the first three years together so we're gonna take seasons 1 2 & 3 and then we're gonna test them all together so I don't have any results yet because that could be like just totally fascinating I expect it to be yeah ok all right so let's look so what are you guys doing right now you're almost wrapping it up some restoration work yeah our team is here on site the this last week doing some work on the wall so when we excavate them we want to make sure that they're going to be stable for generations to come and what we do is we remove all the dirt from the wall that we can with picks and brushes and trials then we bring a hose and we pressure wash the wall to get all the rest of the dirt out it dries overnight and then the next day we use our special compound it comes from Italy and then we add in local dirt to it to give it the right cover and all and we created this system it's like a big caulk gun and so then we are able to shoot the material deep into the wall that's the key to strengthening the wall so we get it in deep and then with brushes we're able to finish off the outside and that's what our team's working on right now so last week as you know I interviewed Lima at Meyer who's just like I mean on another level all together and he's the wall guy all right he was talking about that and he was here and he was sketching the walls now what he said is that this was a wall like a platform that the walls are so thick here that the key doesn't think it was a residential place but it kind of a platform that had been used by the Canaanites for ritual worship this is the center and then Joshua and the Israelites come here and use the same place so what are you thinking about that I don't think that it was used as a Canaanite sacrificial system they're using that on assuming that the bone deposit dates to the Canaanite period I see it as matching the Israelite period but it is a platform and I don't find a lot of residential activity on the inside maybe the houses an area see from later in the tabernacle period so here's what I think Eve remember how David is rationalizing like how can I build myself a house when God still dwells in a tent so that's not foreign to the Israelite mind so I think here at Shiloh God is dwelling in a tent and I think they continue to dwell in tents as well and you're not gonna find the remnants of the tents just like we haven't found the remnants of the tabernacle that's right and we do have a lot of ancient structures Bronze Age that they were probably continuing to use on into the Late Bronze Age and into the Iron Age all right what have you found in terms of let's say lamps or other signs of human activity oh yes we have hundreds of lamps that we have found from the biblical period 2,000 pieces of pottery every day so that's 40,000 this season so every one of those is washed and analyzed one thing we added this year is infrared and ultraviolet lighting so we have built a darkroom down at our headquarters here and so inside that dark room we have infrared and ultraviolet lighting so then we can look at our objects and our pottery to see if there's anything that we're missing with the naked eye now you're not gonna find writing at this point are you oh sure oh absolutely we have GLIP decry mains and sometimes it's painted sometimes it's inscribed so if the paint is very faded we may not see it with the naked eye but under that infrared light we would and that's something new I think in archaeology I mean they're going back now let's say even two Scrolls that they thought were blank and definitely ostraca that they thought there was nothing on it and now with new technology they're able to see things that were faded and realizing oh like maybe we threw out some stuff it was really a born but who knew well exactly in speaking of technology we now wet sipped everything so we dry sift everything and then we wet sifted down below and that's where 50% of our small fines are coming from scarabs bula this season we have two boola scarabs seal impressions beads pendants all that would have been thrown away if we were not wet sifting and that tells me that in the past we as archaeologists doing our best we've been throwing away go to all the expense and trouble and then throw away half the evidence all right but like you said there's a learning curve and there's technology yeah but I I think in the future you Diggs won't be able to justify operating without doing that it's so substantial and even in some of the old dump piles here we've gone back to do tests and we got inscriptions out of host up piles I mean even one one inscription here from sheilo in the past said it was a figurine Isis blessed the temple of yeah Isis Isis blessed the temple of broken inscription the key word is missing you know it doesn't say she love does it have the name of God and so wet sifting with it we can find those little things like that by the way Isis doesn't mean Islamic state no no talking about the Egyptian Isis yeah context context of today's here in antiquity that would be a new and win it so now you're gonna cover this up until next year what's the plan here yeah so I'm in the process now with our team of covering over the squares we have a special felt material to reduce contamination in the offseason so when we get back next year we don't have to clean up you know the wash that's coming in the rain and wind and so forth from the offseason so right next to a sieve is something interesting if you want to have a look this in this wall you see the stone right here in the corner as you're going to be living vicariously through me what can I tell you there's a big stone and it goes up like this on the edge and we found nearby not in the wall but nearby another one that's even more clear we think we have a horned altar that has been disassembled and then put into secondary usage very common here in Israel so explain what a horned altar is all right only seven have ever been found in Israel in the biblical period they would build an altar with horns or raised areas on the edges and so they could either tie a sacrifice down or somebody needed mercy remember they would go to the the cities of refuge and grab hold of the horns of the altar and then the man no time he's back and and the the manslayer you know would not be able today we get mercy in other words and it's really pretty cool because I mean the sacrificial system I know in the modern mind weep this is gross and bloody but it gives it it gives us a means of redemption or of connection without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin Leviticus 17:11 and so it gives people a way to mend their fractured relationship with God and with each other so what's the explanation about why I'd be broken and stuck in a wall ok well the exact same thing happened at Bar Sheva they took it apart in one time period maybe one of the reforms Hezekiah Josiah we're still in the process of looking at the dating of it and then later period this is a early Roman late Second Temple period structure here they don't even know what it is of course at that point and they rebuild it into that wall because we're talking about hundred years later and the Reformation which you can read about in the Bible is the Jews are going off and you know these are lights and worshiping other idols and these two Kings are like whoa guys enough and they go around the land and break and we see it in the Bible they break the Belmont they break those kind of breakaway altars if you will because they want people to be coming to Jerusalem and coming to the temple that's right and of course there's all kinds of syncretism that's going on in those times too like right across the highway it gave out ahead and just one kilometer from here it's a massive four horned altar there and I think it's probably pagan I mean here wide right next to Sheila if you want to worship the God of the Bible you come to CeeLo you don't go one kilometer over here to this massive altar so I think it again verisimilitude you read this in the text and then you see a material culture that matches you think it could be the altar of miav Micah well that's a thought that's an interesting story in the Bible also there's kind of an alternate altar on the other side of the street and even though it's pagan they're very welcoming and hospitable and here you have a very interesting discussion really about doing the right thing but in the wrong way versus doing the wrong thing but in the right way so here in sheilo maybe the priests were corrupt people weren't coming here which we see because at the end of the book of Judges there's a description about how to get to Sheol oh right it's south of lavona it's over here from Beit el now some people know how to get here you wouldn't have to have the directions well yeah First Samuel is very clear about the corruption I mean Eli is righteous but his sons are very wicked and it says that that's why the Lord judged sheilo and then later in Jeremiah chapter 7 verse 12 God tells Jeremiah when there's pending judgment on Jerusalem he tells Jeremiah from Jerusalem go to Sheila see what I did there okay in other words don't think I won't judge you look what I did there which is a huge message I think to religious leadership of all types that if you are doing the wrong thing and what we think about maybe the sons of a Lee was hashtag me - something's going on there you're gonna drive people away from God and your responsibility as a religious leader whether it's you know pedophiles in the Catholic Church or whatever it is which is why I meet a lot of laughs Catholics these days you are driving people away from the very thing that you represent because of your your terrible behavior as a human being and this is I mean the Bible the messages in the Bible are just resonate all the time in so many different ways they are timeless they really are I mean how tragic you know that the these sons of Eli here and I mean they're hitting on these women when they're coming what a tragic you know that powerful men taking advantage women is like maybe the oldest story in the book and not just the Bible book so what else did you find here like anything like what were you excited by our GLIP declines are always interesting the the scarab from this season is very old like 13th dynasty so from the foundational phase of Shiloh which would have been about 1750 BC the bula is very interesting those are almost impossible to find in an archaeological square it's a tiny piece of clay covered in dirt even in dry sift you can't see that but only in wet sifting can can we get that type of information Eames it's got writing on it in ancient Hebrew oh it's hieroglyphic not paleo in nampalli at first we thought we were seeing paleo Hebrew symbols but no it's it's hieroglyphic and then we have a jar handle that is stamped with a scarab also this season which is rare so that means someone important here that would have belonged to that person so now we're in the process of studying those and preparing them for publication and how about like entries I remember last year you told me that there was possibly a dwarf or something okay well we better walk down and have a look down there just yesterday when I was driving from Ikea and I looked across which I've done many times and I looked across at the northern slope of sheilo and I saw something I never seen before what looks like an approach road from the north and so I'm going to go down today and actually explore this which leads right to where I've been theorizing that we may have a northern gate and the Bible mentions the gate of Sheol oh it's never been found so I'm not going on record as saying that we have the gate of Sheol oh I'm just saying we have a feature that very well could be that we're exploring well you have the area of Sheol Oh itself and then you have the tabernacle area to the north of it running on an east-west axis incidentally just like the City of David and the Temple Mount laid out in that same way but you would have had to get out from sheilo to the tabernacle area so the fact that there is a northern gate and makes perfect sense and the spring is over here on the north too so I don't think they're carrying water all the way around to the south and then all the way back to the north it's illogical by the way we're passing by do you remember Gladys from last year this is Gladys the gorgeous glossy okay so the glossy is the slope we're covering it now that protects the foundation and so say hi to Gladys says we're going hi Gladys nice to see you again so you know one of the things that's interesting about Jewish practice is that sometimes challah ha Jewish law is superseded by an expert for example we're supposed to fast on Yom Kippur on the day of atonement but if your doctor says that you're not well enough to fast not only can you not fast you're not allowed to fast okay the doctor is the expert and you're not supposed to get sick because of this biblical thing now one of the interesting things in sheilo is that it fits into something one of one of the customs that we have on poram alright poram is our really fun holiday that commemorates the miracle of Mordecai and Esther right the book of Esther of what is somewhat of a precedent and hasn't really gone away of Jews trying to stay alive in the Diaspora even when we've got you know the leaders there aren't finally let's just say aren't there did try to get rid of us for one reason or the other so we've got this great holiday of Purim and there is a law that there is some of places celebrate Sushant poor meaning the day after perform the fifteenth of a Dharan said the 14th and that is places that were walled during the time of Joshua so for example Jerusalem now in Shiloh the people who live here now have been celebrating regular perform the fourteenth of Adar but some of your work as a Christian American archaeologist if you find a wall they've existed in the time of Joshua you're actually going to change when the people of this area celebrate a Jewish holiday it's amazing I have had several local residents come asking about that and there's no doubt the wall you're looking at here Joshua saw that when he arrived so that's wild so at some point you may find some rabbis coming down here and really talking to you about this and changing what the Jews in this area do I have had locals come in ask me that very question for that reason but there is absolutely zero certainty that that wall was here when when Joshua you are uncertainty zero zero uncertainty were positive that this wall was here when Joshua arrived wow that's amazing but we're people here because you know when he when Joshua comes with everybody it doesn't say in the text that they conquered sheilo no but I think the reason that there's no conflict here in which the name of course means tranquility Sheila is I think this is part of the Shechem city-state so in the Late Bronze Age you have the Megiddo city-state the Jerusalem city stayed the the huts or city state and the Shechem city state all of them fight the Israelites except Shechem even when the blessings and curses are giving and we're sitting right in slam I mean Mount evil and Mount Kurama right there so if there's a problem with the people of they wouldn't let ever the whole nation stand there so clearly and also it's not on the list of cities that Joshua conquered didn't have to okay so when they go to check em what is the text say all the Israel joined in together alien and citizen alike the shekel might join in okay there they're embracing monotheism essentially probably going back to the abraham's deep ties it's okay now I believe that Shiloh was part of the Shechem city-state and that's why they encounter no resistance here because the archaeology shows that there were people living here but there's no record of any conflict that also maybe could be why Shiloh is in essence an important place because wench after the rape of Deena when Jacob let's say they subdue him and that's like a whole difficult story may be the battle that they have because assuming that there is some kind of rumble after that that the locals don't take it lying down that the prince of slam and his cohorts are killed maybe there's some kind of victory here in this valley and that's why it's seen or it's in the historical memory as a place because where there's miracles those are the places you're going to be drawn to where you feel God met you there right yeah I think that's exactly right is there another explanation for why she Lo becomes where the tabernacle is set up the only other thing that comes to my mind is that Joshua was from the tribe of Ephraim and so I've never frightened it has to go somewhere so it may as well go in my territory you know but I do think that the Shechem city-state that Sheila was part of that and that's why we see no resistance in this area they join in they Confederate with the Israelites and I think that's you see it in the archaeological record too you're not finding when remains of a battle here or layer of ash I don't know I mean we have we have destruction layers but not from that time destruction layer from around minus 1050 those almonds and raisins which points to the Philistines coming here we'll find we do now I might say more like 1075 you know we're quibbling over a few years but we do now have a very clear iron one destruction layer under a floor level so we have a sealed locusts a plastered floor and underneath that we have the destruction layer it's probably the same one that Finkelstein the the Bible doesn't come out and tell us that the Philistines destroyed but you know we can infer that there's a likelihood yeah right well from the archeology which is just so amazing that word that I can't pronounce you used before for similitude right there I go that's my new word for the day wear it like it really just Ebru you know how do you say verisimilitude in hebrew there's gotta be haven't a clue any listeners please welcome you're welcome to write to me and tell me alright let me show you what's going on here Eve so Gladys our glossy our gorgeous glossy she ends right here this massive wall she's not over here right alright so as an archaeologist I ask myself why why don't cuz she should be this is very the glossy protects the city why not well as we excavate in this area we begin to find other clues so let's walk around actually I think we can go safely up here just you know watch out for this okay I don't think that Scott knows that a few years ago I broke my ankle here and she low while guiding so you know it's like I'm very very respectful okay very respectful of this area because uh Anne daily of course the priest broke his neck so at least I only broke my ankle okay I get to see where they felt all right so here we're going down here note to self don't wear a skirt the next time you're doing this okay so now we're standing look at what you see here we found a Byzantine patch on the wall covering something blocking something here what were they trying to block okay now we have two pieces of evidence the glossies m'q missing in this area and we have a big thick patch built against this you're talking like 15 I mean Byzantine is fourth fifth sixth century you're talking about way after this bills that's right so when they come here they're trying to block up something now do you see the two things there's no glassy and antiquity and now but there was something that later people want to block up so now I'm more curious than I was before so we remove the patch and look at what you see you have a what here's to be a threshold you have symmetry here this is what's called a postern gate a secondary gate all right into the city it's small on purpose so that it can be easily blocked up in time of conflict all right so of course we wanted to go then to the inside of the wall to see if we have the same thing and so when we went over there we went down through a destruction level and we got down to the same thing so that this wall right here if you see that lines up with the wall that we have on the other side and so now we've got to finish excavating all this but I'm I think there's a possibility that we have a postern gate here at Sheela which would be an entrance into the city and of course the Bible mentions the Gate of Shiloh we don't know if that's the the gate on the south of the gate on the north and if it's blocked up in the Byzantine period because it could because of the wards that they were having with the Samaritans in the area cuz we've got other evidence in other parts of sheilo like a weird it almost looks like a safe room like a double door droom that they're thinking maybe is you know remin because that went on for a long time and that was pretty pretty bloody well let me just say that's a very insightful question so to all the eaves listeners eve knows her history that was 11 you're asking the right questions yeah in the 5th 5th century we have a series of revolts called the Samaritan revolts and the Byzantines once they got in charge they learned what all people discover who have been out of power and once they get into power that it's far easier to criticize than it is to govern there's a there's a burden with governance and they were quite frankly heavy-handed I think in the way they dealt with the Samaritans the Samaritans revolted they destroyed churches and structures in a series of revolts so maybe this is for that you have no idea it could be but the the larger question for me is that they were blocking something up there was there was already an opening into the city that they did not want to be there so is that from the biblical period if so then are you standing where Eli stood wow that's pretty heavy now if that's not scary enough when we add to it right where Tonya's working over here just a few feet to the south of Tania is where the director of the Danish excavation in 1932 because they starting in 22 Hans can he was working right here when he became more to the ill they took him back to Jerusalem he never recovered and so Tania's gotten on my bad side you can see so I've said that's wearing a mask now wearing a mask I sent her to the center to this area to repent but the Carter expedition comes to mind no but think about it you know the Eli in the gate and hunt skier in this area just you know it's interesting we're not there are certain areas that do have vibe I suppose how do you what are you explaining here with this Phil that's kind of looks on this arch like okay well first of all let me say Eve that's a very good question see if to all of Eve's listeners she's asking all the right questions okay very observant we could use you on the dig you're right that is a field that is Danish dump so when they excavated those storage rooms they they dumped here and but you can see that it's very clear beyond that they did not excavate that they thought they were at the bottom but there were still two meters so that's their dump there and so we'll remove that next season so we can get to the cleaner material the Danes are the ones who really zeroed in on this being sheilo like they're the ones who found the inscription in Greek that says pretty much JC welcomes you to see love sure exactly so they came 1922 they did an exploration and then from 26 to 32 they did four seasons of work before the death of care so yes they had the vision of coming here one of my dreams was to get them reinventing a big celebration that you must come to in 2022 it's called sheilo 2022 it would be the celebration of the 100th anniversary of the launch of archaeological work here and they're already with us they came this season and last season the Danish did so they're working with us once again and they're planning on coming for the celebration Wow that's that's nice that you're already already playing and who knows what you're gonna find in the meantime anything else that you got this yeah I think that's the the architecture we've talked about the glyphic finds the the possible horned altar those are the highlights for this season and the coins and all that usual Oh one hundred and fifty four coins this season we're very systematic about those and they're mainly Second Temple period coins you know names you would recognize Alexander geneious John has many yeah and then on into you know Herod and his sons and grandsons and then Pilate Nero Claudius you know these all the usual suspects that you would expect in that time period that's yeah I mean and going through past the destructure the Second Temple into the Bar Kokhba revolt second century Hadrian you got anything a little bit from the butBut period a little bit of pottery and occasionally a coin so seems like there was a little bit of reuse we have a lot from the first revolt but just a tiny bit from the the Bar Kokhba you know last night I was reading a report that was put up by Jimmy Raviv guy who lives in this area it's dr. great guy doctor and he was talking he did he did his doctoral dissertation on an area not far from here that was pretty much destroyed and the herbs in the village next door decided to use it for agriculture they came upon this really incredible fortress but of course once they uncovered it it was looted and he's just going through the pottery and and the big mess how is this place secured during the year okay this is thank god the most secure site in all of israel the modern community of shiloh has built a security fence all the way around the tale and the modern city and so thank God for that we fought vandalism for decades at the other sites that we've excavated and here we can actually leave our tools in our square and so this is a credit to the local community here and the partnership that we have with them I mean we're here by invitation and you know we're we're working very diligently but we have a great partnership with with this community so who are you working with you've got your University yes our consortium is called associates for biblical research and we have 11 universities that are part of that consortium and this is like Lea University University of Pikeville University of Northwestern so it's a series of universities that participate under this umbrella organization and then I'm the director of the Association political research and how does this fit in with Israel Antiquities Authority okay we're licensed of course through the the Civil Administration of Judea mariya which is the branch of the IAA that covers Judea Samaria and so we're licensed we've been working here this is our 40th anniversary by the way we've we've excavated starting in 1979 at curb anisia Sagat and then curb it Mecca theater and now this is our third season at Shiloh so 40 years of excavation here and soul it's a long-term relationship but we do it apply each year and we're licensed through them the license comes in my name and then the sponsoring institution is ABR there's got to be a lot of trust involved well it does and that comes over years of doing the right thing the right way our reports are excellent our work is excellent and they know that and so it's actually you know when when my boss comes by it's to celebrate I mean we drink coffee and celebrate the great things that are going on you know not I hear people say they're breathing down my neck and that's that's not at all the case with us Publishing is a big deal because that's one of the complaints that a lot of people have about archaeologists is you get in there and you dig but then it can take the report 20 or 25 years to come out and because that's not the fun part but you guys are right on top of that we're really diligent about that as I said this week we have a major publication coming out here in Israel and so we're always staying on top of that publication someone told me he couldn't get a license but when I talked to the iniquities Authority they said he he won't publish we won't turn in his stuff well there you go you know you have to do the right thing the the right way one Israeli archaeologist told me that how did he put it excavating is like making a baby and publishing is like rearing a child so yeah that sounds like something an Israeli archaeologist would say you guys aren't seeing it but Scott slushing you know I had to say I think you're right so what do you do when you're not here okay so I am the provost at a seminary back in Texas called the Bible seminary and we have an archaeology program and Institute that I'm the director of also and so three of my students are on site right now today but I've had maybe 12 that were here in the course of the dig so like the other institutions that are involved they're required to do a certain amount of fieldwork but as Provost that means I oversee the academic program so a supervised faculty and students and so forth this is like the ultimate field trip huh for me it is and so I mean our philosophy at the Bible seminary is that the world is our classroom and so yeah we of course we do classroom instruction but my students are learning here in the field more than they could ever learn in the classroom so we were big believers in that it's a great opportunity to come here to the Holy Land to see other sites and to just kind of fill in their theological world or just their knowledge of the world in general geography chronology it all comes you know together when you when you're traveling you know this platform is disappearing by the way so when tourists come here in another year or two they'll stand on that path below and they're not gonna see any of this all they're gonna see is the massive wall the same thing Joshua saw and Gladys they're gonna see the wall they're gonna see Gladys and the storage rooms sheilo is an amazing site but right now there's not much to see okay when they come here in another year or two they're going to have a lot to look at and I know that the site here the people who run the site they're trying to do it's kind of 21st century things they've got a great room here like a hologram I don't even know what you'd call a 3d representation of the tabernacle and explaining the meaning of that and they've got some screens around here trying to give people a visual of what would have been here which is important otherwise you do come and it's like just a pile of rocks well that's a pet peeve of mine is going to an archeological site even as an archaeologist there's no signage well we were just making educated guesses at what's there so what does it cost us to put up good signage you know and so I guarantee your listeners that we're going to have state of the art science here at Sheila okay well you guys are gonna have to come and visit after that there's going to be no excuse that's right and of course we welcome our Raley friends to participate with us as well they can even come out and dig for a day we have a program we're at no cost I know in Jerusalem they're doing that but you pay to do it you can come here at no cost and excavate in this sacred soil and that'll be next June because you're wrapping it up for this year next May so we'll be back in mid-may next year for five more weeks you got Frankie Snyder working here I've known her for years I mean she's one of the sifting expert well I have a dream team working with me so not only Frankie Lea trimer from Ariel University Leora Freud from Tel Aviv University Pettit man from hebrew university yo i thought he is a tot numismatist here in israel so we're very integrated with four different Israeli universities with Israeli staff so it's not like we're here and they're there no we're one big family we're learning from them they're learning from us and and it's really a dynamic synergy and I think everybody comes with their own worldview to here so you've got a little more of the Bible maybe than somebody else so you're gonna see let's say with the bones from the right side you're gonna say whoa that sounds familiar and some of the Israelis who know maybe more about the culture of the Middle East or some of that are able to bring in their peace so it's really it's an orchestra it really is and so my job which i think is fascinating I think I have the best job in the world I get to the coordinate all that and and get this whole team it's like a startup business you know we we start up and we run the business for seven weeks and then we shut it down until the next year but to coordinate all of that activity which continues on the rest of the year by the way once I'm back home I'm still working with all the experts on all the reports to me that's fascinating what do you think of the level of our the Israeli archaeologists here because back in the day diva-like all the original guys you didn't really have Israeli archaeology I mean the state's only 70 some-odd years old she had foreigners coming in doing whatever they did in the case of like McAlister making a lot of mess that we're still trying to recover from and places like Megiddo but what are you thinking of the level here of archaeology now in Israel oh I think it's it's every bit as at the standard as the American archaeologist my only regret is that much of Israeli archaeology has has become totally secular when I lectured at Hebrew University a few years ago I talked about Bible and archaeology like I always do I'm bringing it together the students these were PhD students they loved what I was talking about they said this is fascinating you're the first one all year to use the Bible and I think this is sad okay so that's my regret but as far as methodologically I think that they're they're doing fantastic work yeah more than sad I'm going to say that's tragic it's tragic to have that kind of love anti-biblical bias and that doesn't mean everyone across the board of course but I'm just saying that's the general trend and I'm out to change that well good cuz you know that's just good if the Christian gives the Jews that kick in the pants when it comes to the Bible I'm fall for that that's right and I think we should engage in the arena of ideas okay and it doesn't bother me if someone has a different view you know the old saying where there are two archaeologists there are three opinions that doesn't bother me in the least I want to embrace that those who maybe we don't see things that's that let's learn from each other let's engage in the arena of ideas openly because I'm really comfortable with my ideas and if I'm wrong on some point I'd like to know so that I can get better I do know because I have interviewed archaeologists over the years who do see they in their personal lives believe in the Bible or even observant Jews now am i well her last name just flew out of my head she's digging at a label my Akash she actually invited me to come up there I just forgot her last name went right out of my head it's a hyphenated one no but she works with her she works with her she's over at Hebrew you and you know and this is definitely part of the history part of the culture part of you know what unites us here so you know I think it's phenomenal and it's unfortunate if that's being kind of kicked out of the curriculum in certain places yeah well we're gonna keep it in the in the forefront and continue to engage in that arena of ideas and I think that synergistically we mix it all up together there's a lot of really good things happening in Israeli archaeology and you're making it very hard for the anti Bible people to sleep well at night oh that breaks my heart he's got such a big smile on his face okay well thank you so much this was great I'm heading up to our Yale University actually right now they've got a conference on new finds in Judea and Samaria something I just read yesterday is it in her army based in the South the southern Judean Hills they have some paratroopers uncovered and the paratroopers themselves I think those paratroopers were working they uncovered a fortress from the first Temple period which fits in with Zeca and Mahesh where you'd have these like fires you know where you signal to each other they're thinking it's one of those because it's on a high hill and he actually had soldiers there who said in terms of let's say the Bible to how moving it was for them to be able to uncover something that had been used by Israelite soldiers so long ago to their land and the connection was just really emotional for them that's amazing I mean and as a Christian those things of course are important to me too we the roots of Christianity are in the soil soil of Judaism and so we share the same scriptures and so we get the same sort of fulfill I think sometimes people come by we have groups all day coming by like you know what are you guys doing here what's your connection it's it's a very deep connection I mean these are the the soil the scriptures we share this in common and so you consider this holy work I do I mean it's I often daily think about Psalm 102 14 blessed are those who love your dust and cherish your stones and for me and it's all over me the dust the stones and the dust to me it really is sacred in our team they take that same level of a proprietorship to I see it last year I was able to interview a couple of them and definitely for them this was not just like spending the summer doing a dig this was really uncovering the Bible uncovering history uncovering the lives of people whom we've read about to the point that we think we know them like if Joshua started climbing up this hill I don't think either of us would even be all that surprised because there's some timelessness here there's something going on here that's bigger than we are and and being able to be a part of uncovering it is just absolutely so phenomenal well there's a language of the material culture the pottery is talking to me now you know and that may sound strange that I'm hearing voices the bones are talking to me the stones are telling their story and as we learn their language and we calibrate more and more that the picture is like in a spiral getting closer and closer to coming into focus of what happened at this amazing site and antiquity and with all that you've uncovered there's so much left to do well I think we have job security for at least the next few years all right I want to see you hobbling through here like at age 90 you know kicking some workers with your cane or something well as IRA as our air Prince would say inshallah God willing all right guys that was great thank you so much dr. Scott it's a pleasure to be with you appreciate your interest every year this is it now we've got two years running I'm gonna be back here next year thank you everybody for listening Eve Harrow rejuvenation Island visual network thinks to Tabitha thanks to Ben if some of you are new to the station to the podcast you can look up my website Eve Harrow with one our comm to see what else I'm up to because I take Israel out of Israel for those of you who can't get here so I go to the States to Canada to England working on a trip to Australia now to bring some of what I do here out to you guys or Advaitic thing the mountain to Muhammad right so if any of you are interested in that please be in touch with me and I would love to bring Israel to you in the meanwhile take care everybody have an amazing week Aparo goodbye for now right where the Camerata did it the matter of centimeter josh hastened here host of israel uncensored and on my show this week an interview with rabbi dolphin dell the head of the Hester you Shiva and steroid this past week a Hamas fired rocket scored a direct hit on one of the heads their buildings here what it's like to live under the constant threat of rocket fire miracles don't always happen and even in the media everybody you know spoke about it Thursday night and Friday morning and then everything was forgotten for the full show check out Israel uncensored on the Land of Israel network at the Land of Israel calm you