Rejuvenation: O Canada; Go Israel

[Music] hi everybody Eve Harrow rejuvenation on the land of israel Network hope you are all doing well wherever you are I am very honored to have on the line with me McHale Cutler once who is one of our newest members of Knesset whom I've read a lot about I imagine many of you have as well because she is I think maybe the only Canadian to ever get into the Knesset so we're gonna hear from her now what her goals are in the Knesset and I am just so thrilled that she made time for this interview because you should know we had to delay it because she was in committee and committee and committee members of Knesset work very hard I know there's this idea that they're just kind of sitting around living off the fat but a lot of them when I've been in the Knesset they are very very busy and very determined to get things done and to make this country better so Michal may I call you mijo absolutely absolutely okay so we call thanks so much for joining us here today so how long have you been a member of Knesset I've been a member of Knesset for two weeks tomorrow Eve and uh-huh and there were actually there's one more Canadian currently in Knesset I believe sure on tremendous scale was born in Toronto I guess she emigrated she's also here yes and it actually W says apparently it was somehow Canadian you know but that's a long time ago oh I am proudly the single most identified Canadian currently sitting in okay so what's your personal story so I'll start maybe with with a personal personal I was born in Jerusalem and I was raised in Montreal my mum was the legislative secretary for the Likud Party and on the night of what's known as the muhaha the turn around the large trent turn around there chapman in 1977 I actually was in the Knesset as a seven year old girl and probably one of the most formative moments of my life when publicness it's who's names most people don't recognize history Illinois I feel could be Scheib in see on Kish it basically broke into a euphoric dancing and singing and joy at the results of that those elections to 1977 when begging for the first time after 28 years in opposition consecutive years in opposition 1 in 1977 election Crimea being coined the expression muhaha that night and and that's a little bit of my very formative experience with Knesset my mom remarried when I was 8 years old and we moved to Canada she married professor Irwin Cotler a human rights activist a law professor constitutional law professor and then I grew up in Canada and I emigrated back to Israel to serve in the army and and I attended law school here and actually public served in the public sector and the private sector as a young lawyer in the 90s at the time of what's known now is the constitutional revolution and I clerked in the in the court at the time for then the Court of Appeals judgment you know later on you know the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court I worked you know with our own Barack and clerked for summers there and then works in the Ministry of Justice in several positions both for my you know internship and then later on as a lawyer they were very exciting times for young lawyers actually and constitutionally there was this real sense that for the first time there was movement and this possibility that Israel would actually have a constitution of course was never completed right so it's like a you know puzzle pieces that began coming together in whatever order they came together a little bit haphazard and and they follow us to this day so III think the ramifications of that process or the unfinished process or the incomplete process or the way that the process even evolved we're still living the consequences although it seems like a long time ago with the 90s the early 90s I for the last I actually moved back to Canada and pursued a master's in law at McGill University and worked actually in mediation in alternative dispute resolution when that whole field was developing and other very exciting fields and returned to Israel ten years ago with my four very Canadian children really slight culture shock like culture shock and and I mean some people would make a joke because of course I moved Turin Anna the commute to commute to Israel's very short they say from Rana so we live in Raanana with our four kids and who all integrated very well and I'm very grateful to run Anna actually for providing that very soft landing I believe where you're only the new guy for about five minutes and five minutes later you're already receiving the new guys or girls that's it so on a professional level for the last few years I've been both researching as you indicated in the Institute for counterterrorism and actually as a doctoral fellow myself and as a research fellow at the Hebrew University in a in a program called human rights and under pressure I actually am researching or it's on it's on hold now it's it's frozen my doctoral thesis but I'm researching attempted regulation of speech on University campuses or or or what happens to freedom of speech with its attempted regulation on University campuses are very interesting global you sure you're familiar with faces meaning you can't say anything spaces microaggressions trigger warnings no platforming speech codes that exist on universities we're actually already in the push back so whereas in Israel this is very unfamiliar at the moment certainly the limitations on free speech are not anything anybody's aware of actually most universities in Israel only have reference to speech with regard to political or public activity nothing to do with personal or or even a certainly not academic understanding of speech or a limiting speech in that way we're trigger warnings are actually a limitation it certainly reflects even back on academic freedoms because if you can't teach certain or if you can't forgive reading lists that include let's say rape law because you may trigger an emotional response and your students how do you teach rape law so there are all kinds of very interesting yeah very interesting processes I believe that there and what I've been studying or studying and writing about few years is actually the global processes including how the effect Israel and and and so when you ask me you know how did you enter politics or why did you enter politics it was an intersection of a few things first of all this sense of real and I would say urgency in translating the academic understanding what happened what's happening in terms of global processes and the way that they affect Israel and also certain cases and causes that I became very involved in from a legal perspective I'll speak about one specific one or maybe two the first is the golden casein cause so Hadar Goldin alongside another soldier or anshel were killed during an international humanitarian ceasefire six years ago actually almost you know to the day in Gaza during Operation protective edge and international humanitarian ceasefire brokered by the United Nations in the United States supported by the European Union and we are actually in fact still in a standing violation of international law in the sense that this was an international humanitarian ceasefire nonetheless they are both still being held alongside two Israeli citizens who wandered into Gaza both of them not well emotionally or mentally and we know nothing about the whereabouts of these two civilians at the moment so again violation of international law and all kinds of responsibilities and the right you know the the imperative for international organization stop hold and protect rights human rights of civilians as well and and here we are nearly six years later what became more and more apparent both through my academic research and through my very active involvement in the legal case and cause as I call it was the imperative for the State of Israel to rise from the docket of the accused to begin using the language of Rights the lingua franca of the international community international law and we are very we're very partial to using the language of security first of all because we have many many security concerns the challenge with that is that neither our friends nor our foe here's the language of security they use the language of Rights and the challenge that's using our own singular language in the international arena is that Israel is constantly essentially in absentia so there is there is I would say a battle for public opinion waging and we're not there we're simply not there it's not that we're saying you know the wrong things we're not we're not tied with one hand behind our backs we're not there were non-existent as I said as far as as far as far as I'm concerned we have both friends who are waiting to hear from us and foes who are using the language of rights and benefiting by holding the stick at both ends on one hand violating the law including terror organizations or terror sponsoring States when I'm violating the law on the other hand benefiting for the protections of the law including humanitarian law so the reason that we've coined it or called it the case and cause is that it it presents an opportunity to actually begin to unravel the multiple challenges that Israel faces in the international arena whether it's at the ICC whether it's as I said the battle for public opinion even in the war against terror because here we are utilizing international law which by definition intended to legislate the relationship between two law-abiding States I mean as funny as that sounds because the laws or but yeah the laws of war were intended to legislate the situation of war between two law-abiding States except that we've imposed the laws of war on a situation between a law-abiding state and for lack of a better term it's an asymmetric war right a terror organization a terror organization that has no regard whatsoever for the law the opposite it mocks the law you abuses and abuses that cynically and intentionally and here we are regulating a relationship with the terror organization according to international law and it really is something that is what I'm seeing now is very difficult because it demands a paradigmatic not only for the case and cause Golden Rule to civilians of M&G Stoney Shah Messiah by the way if you look at that intersectional representation of Israeli society both to deceased soldiers and from very diverse backgrounds one from the Ethiopian community one from the Bedouin community and this is the perfect situation where you would take a human rights cause and say this is a flagship case except that the international community has been other than the representations we've made and when I say we two weeks ago it was legal counsel to the golden family or the legal team of the golden family not we the State of Israel the official State of Israel doesn't make the case and the unofficial State of Israel receives all kinds of encouragement from I would say the international community its representatives its organizations but nothing has ever happened other than we support we encourage we demand that the Hamas return to see soldiers burial and the to civilians and so forth including a meeting with Antonio Guterres last summer the the Secretary General of the UN where based on resolution 247 for that the the UN pad that the UN Security Council passed just two months before our meeting with him a few weeks before a meeting with him even actually has the responsibility to demand accountability from both the countries and Greek the organizations in Greek so whether it's the Red Cross whether it's the UN's representatives to the region that are meant to report on the breaches of international law with regard to civilians and in this case also civilians are also the families of the deceased soldiers don't forget so we've received a lot of support even you know non-binding statements but it became more and more and more tangible that in order to be able to affect change in the way that Israel represents itself in the international arena I have to roll up my sleeves and try and do it and and so and and and by the way this has extensive ramifications meaning it's not just Israel standing in the international arena visa vie the ICC it's with regard to the way that we view anti-semitism and combat anti-semitism both because we don't use for example the IRA definition in the way that we should be using the a definition including the 3ds D legitimization demonization and double standard against the State of Israel in the international arena but also in terms of the way that it effects our our you know the diaspora communities our sisters and our brothers in diaspora we're up against the challenges of anti-semitism and are also left without Israel's very important voice in addressing the challenges of anti-semitism in in a role that I believe should be the state of Israel's in the sense that we can take that argue definition it's a working definition as we speak actually there's an international plenary with 35 representatives from different countries discussing how the IRA definition can be best implemented how to best you know use the available resource I read definition so I encourage you to familiarize yourself a bit it's very important I HR a is an organization that was intended to combat anti-semitism and in order to combat something you first have to define it now that seems like an obvious thing to say except that we still haven't defined terror that's a whole other there's no definition for terror what terrorism is there's no internationally agreed definition anti-semitism has an internationally agreed definition a working definition it's non-binding but in order to identify something if you have a definition it helps right so for example the Paris police force uses the IRA working definition anti-semitism to train its police force in order to be able to define something how do you know that identify exactly so so for these issues and and I and I would say beyond that my own personal story and you know you we touched upon it I was a lone soldier came here on my own I went to law school here I also for very often I refer to a corona to the corona virus not only as the challenge but also the opportunity and and and with regard to what I'm about to say I believe that there is such an opportunity looming a great opportunity of possibly also a great flood of idea of people interested in immigrating to Israel that we might not have seen before and it's very important that we become aware of the fact that there are tens of thousands of Jews throughout the world it doesn't matter reason they are interested at this point in at least looking into the possibility of making alia and so another part of my own personal story as it affects the general I would say clinical or my purpose or my gruel in sitting in this seat at this point is to facilitate that and to enable that and not only to ensure that they emigrate to the State of Israel and not only to ensure that they are absorbed in that initial whatever it is but actually to facilitate and enable them to integrate and and I and I say that very very differently than the absorption because integration means that we should be seeing Liam from all over the world contributing to the public sector in the political sector and you started by introducing me and saying I'm the only Canadian in Israeli Parliament right now and I'll tell you the truth I'm probably the only one you know that you know moved here in the last ten years from anywhere and even for example my I have a parliamentary aide who happens to be Canadian so she did a little head count for me of all the parliamentary aides you know every MK 120 of us and ministers we all problem in creates there are four in the Knesset that are themselves new immigrants so that's another something that I believe Israeli society is losing out because well even for the shame contribute to the economy and the contribute contribute philanthropically so they're socially and economically very involved in the fabric of Israeli society but let me hit arrest and you don't see their influence in the public sector and in the political sector not in the way that we should be seeing it and I think we all lose the State of Israel loses yeah I've talked about that with other people over the years because those of us who came from North America we've got one or two capabilities and except for let's say Moshe Arens who was very very active in and obviously Golda Meir but that's quite a while ago we're very involved in volunteer organizations you find a lot of wonderful places that have started up be it for children at risk or with different issues all over Israel that are run by people who made Ali especially from english-speaking countries but not only but in the political fear where we can really make a difference on a different level not there and something like say to me it's because we don't understand the Israeli system we're not pushy enough our hebrew isn't good enough and so you're probably the only person in there right now who knows both sides of the pond literally understanding I think it's so important because I believe that we're a bridge on so many levels I think that the multiple identities are we bring to the table even when you think of the concept of Jewish and democratic I don't know any or lid that has that that those two don't coexist in harmony for Jewish and democratic is it's a no-brainer right for us it's a no-brainer and and so the can't imagine the contribution that we have to make to the conversation which we need to have in you know the young incredible miraculous 73 year old country that we have the foundations for the physical foundations I believe that our generations responsibility is actually to believe to build or to develop the spiritual foundations and those spiritual foundations are based on you know that and Vava Hebrew Jewish and democratic the for example you know something which may sound simplistic but one of my most I think I hope one of my most important contributions will be if I manage to pass a bill called it's a odds whole kiss so it make you got that smooth talk--i so biggy that that smooth is the foundation to the Constitution unfinished or not it matters less at this point but that is our foundational document for the founding of the State of Israel that is the vision mission and values all in one document it exists except that we sort of need to almost I would say not really I would say me except the Covenant or we I don't even know how to frame it but in every year is our vows renew our vows we knew our powers renew the Covenant a hundred percent that's found foundational document Seminoles as I said the vision mission values of what the State of Israel still is and so it's an important reminder but also actually if you think about it it grounds both in terms of identity and where is drill is going in the next seventy-two years please God but also addresses some fundamental concerns and things that we've gone a little bit astray along the way for example the nation state law okay the nation state law was an important law on one hand on the other hand it hurts a lot of minority groups like the jury oh that's exactly right who felt that civic equality was missing from the nation state law now if you have the Declaration of Independence as the basic law through which you define all other laws the word equality is in there thirty times there is no doubt that there are there is ensured civic equality to all minorities in the state of Israel as it should be and as is by the way it's just that I always say this is a lawyer the law has to represent or reflect reality it's not good when there's a gap between the law and reality it's not good on so many levels and even you know they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions it doesn't matter why it happened but look at me we'll talk to when he gets a sovereignty and so forth but there's another place where when reality and the law have a gap between them all kinds of things because nature abhors a vacuum all kinds of things enter that vacuum and some of them are intentionally used or abuse and some of them are just random if there was never an intent necessarily but it's too late by the time you recognize that the growing gap has been filled in by you know something else that entered the void so you mentioned that in the 90s you were very involved in the Israel Supreme Court and there's a lot of issues when it comes to the Supreme Court and the fact that they may be according to some people are the ones really running the country that you could be sitting there in the Knesset elected member of Knesset along with 119 of your Co members of I said and and ministers of course as well with a Norwegian law now there's actually a lot of elected officials but then it seems to many that the Supreme Court has really taken a bigger chunk of responsibility that they're even willing to undo some of the laws that are legislated in the Knesset so that essentially you could say they're the ones running the country do you agree with that as someone who worked very deeply within the Supreme Court and our and Barak is seen as the one who really made that shift during his years and I want to say things very pretty Mozilla is a very young lawyer c'thun see as they say in here but really I was a very young lawyer and I was privileged to be part of conversations and discussions which were really the greatest legal minds of this country were around that table and and and what I want to say about that is having watched the process it's a little bit actually refers to my last sentence about about the gap that grows and that an agent wearing a vacuum I want to say something in a democracy and we have three branches of government right the legislative the executive in the judicial the natural tension between them and each and there and there is a natural tension between them we should acknowledge it we should know about it and it leads to the you know the checks and balances that we create each democracy and its own checks and balances and Israel's democracy certainly has to find its own checks and balances and that that to me means that it's it's okay to criticize and it's okay to even reevaluate the checks and balances but I want to say something which i think is very important for there to be checks and balances between the three branches of government there have to be three functioning branches of government three well of functioning with good governance branches of government government so if the executive branch or the legislative branch basically avoids dealing or a avoids creating long term plans avoids anticipating what's going to happen in terms of immigration avoids reflecting on what kind of policy it needs to put into effect and guess what a hot potato gets rolled to the front gates of the Supreme Court the Supreme Court must rule according to the existing infrastructure legislative infrastructure that comes before it Supreme Court can make laws it can't make a non-existent regulation it can only rule according to the evidence brought before it and the laws that are available to guide it and so what's going to happen inevitably and this is already out of position right either if you like the decision you say yeah the Supreme Court really should take more and more control or you core if you don't look like the decision you say it's a very activist Court and you know it ruled out beyond its scope of of let's say authority what I wanted what I want to claim is before we can have that discussion we need to build and structure the two other branches of government which have fallen by the wayside the executive in the legislative and that doesn't mean that they legislate doesn't legislate it does but that's not sufficient meaning if there is no long term planning long term holistic executive plans laws that actually look at things holistically and don't don't act as patchwork you know whereas band-aids because hard cases make bad law don't forget and that's true always so I say to my staff here all the time when I look at things you know it III know that I'm committed to my Jewish values to my democratic values but I know that in order to implement the law and human rights I have to be consistent in implementing those too otherwise I myself undermine the law in the human rights which I set out to protect okay now when the executive branch and the legislative branch don't function in that way and in many in many many instances they haven't I mean I could read again you know whether it's migrants are they work migrants are the refugees well if you don't create policy it's going to end up in a Supreme Court and you're going to not depending on your position either not like what the Supreme Court has decided or you know flaws with the Supreme Court's decided but that's just politicizing rights or personalizing rights by the way there's also that danger right so hard cases make bad law can also become a personal thing we have several cases of that in in our background but that's where the legislative and executive branches have fallen short and the only way to balance between the three branches of government is for all three of them to first function there was once a football coach that had I think a motto that said just do your job don't do somebody else's job so I've entered the legislative branch as you know and part of my mandate is to legislate and the other part of my mandate is to supervise the executive branch and by the way you refer to the Norwegian law and actually Israel's parliament is one of the smallest in the world it's true that our government is especially big after these elections but the Parliament itself a number of MKS that are sitting in the committee's where the real work is done that is where the supervision of government happens in the committees it's actually very small so there are all kinds of things that need to be addressed and and some of them have to do with our with our possibly with our you know our democratic system of representation and maybe something and pot very possibly they need to be changed but first the executive and the legislative branches have to be two functioning branches that owns their responsibilities then we can talk about the balancing act and it's a fine balancing act and the checks and balances and one thing I'm convinced of is you don't mend or you don't repair the the checks and balances that maybe are off kilter by destroying the third branch of government we depend on that branch of government we depend on it in every way we depend on it for civic you know agreement between us we depend on it internationally because for complementarity to exist we have to show the outside world that we have a functioning court system if we're gonna tear down the court system what we not only lose you know the organizational structures for our civic lives between us as civilians but on the international arena and and by the way our challenges there are beyond what we imagine as you well know what's happening at the ICC what's happening in the international arena we stand to do a great deal of of damage if we undermine the ability of the let's just sort of judicial branch in a way that it harms it internationally so to bring up what's the very big hot topic in the last few weeks of course is Israel possibly putting Israeli law on parts of Judea and Samaria the Trump plan sovereignty whatever you want to call it so you wouldn't see a situation where if the executive branch actually does take a step that the Supreme Court will intervene and get down you think as long as the two other branches are clear about where they're going and the bigger picture then it's something that will remain look again we're talking about good governance right and and goodness is something we really really need to work on but but but I don't I that's not where I think we should be at all with the peace and prosperity plan I think the peace and prosperity plan is you know at least through my analysis actually its potential and we might I hope we didn't miss this completely because its potential is actually in the paradiddle shift that it offers in offering agency to both parties it's the first time historically where there's no paternalistic sort of sub context that says oh you can't do this you're not you're not capable of stopping incitement or ending paper slate or acknowledging the right of the State of Israel to exist alongside you in secure borders we're asking you to do something you can't actually do to me it's the first time that we're looking at our partners or you know at least in non war if not in peace our future possible partners and saying equal rights and equal responsibilities means we have agency we both have agency you have agency and with that comes responsibilities the responsibilities are outlined very well in that plan as I said you know they include acknowledging Israel's right to exist in secure borders you know little is it the Kumasi mini scope no more paying for slave no incitement in the schools which you would expect of any of any part of these treaty or any kind of partnership any partnership exactly right any partnership and and so when we take out the piece of the application of law or sovereignty or people want to call it annexation I have a problem with with with legal terminology that doesn't accurately reflect just cuz I'm a lawyer doesn't necessarily Acula accurately reflect the meaning because you're pouring in something that has a whole other slew of a set of rules that that govern it so if it's an annexation and is one thing except you don't have to prove to me that it's an annexation from what I know in international law we're talking about application of sovereignty of the law because 1920 yeah you know the San Remo conference 1922 delete patience and that hasn't been a manga so the most you could say it's an area ads you know in conflicts or but there but but when you use the word annexation you're inferring that you're a next thing is something that belongs to somebody else there's no somebody else I have a problem with with misusing or abusing language yeah and it's done a lot and by the way it's done you know it's done an emote like knowing he not intentionally people just don't know that the terminology and the nuance of the terminology right and again as a lawyer I always say you know words have meaning and you have to you have to know that you're using the word accurately because there's a whole slew of then you know meaning that comes out of using that word so let's say we'll call the application of sovereignty or application of the law again I said earlier I'm a firm believer that the law has to reflect reality reality on the ground is that State of Israel already you know has will continue to have full control of the because Valley as its easternmost border in the broadest sense as as he got alone you know specified as as Rabine and his last speech actually acknowledged the need for and and and and and the large settlement blocs absolutely remain in Israeli under Israeli sovereignty and so acknowledging it is very important but the power and it'll be the pity the power in the Trump peace plan is in its package so or you know the peace and prosperity plan we call it whatever 100-day plan whatever we want to call it now I haven't seen the details of it and I don't think it's about the details actually I think we're we're missing the point is is in its in its really paradigmatic in the way that we view our relationship so that it enables the beginning of a process that lead to you know maybe its first prosperity and then peace I don't know very possibly but but but but I hope we're not missing that because when we dilute it to one piece we really lose the chance to talk in this rhetoric which I believe is the opportunity in this plan and to take a little yeah 100% and and so that's my view of it and at the moment though I'd be remiss if I if I didn't say the following the challenges of the corona virus globally but in Israel as well and that's you know the focus of this government we entered a unity government look I I you know a blue and white party if I didn't say that at the beginning yeah I'm yeah that's right I'm in the blue and white party I entered the blue and white party through the tell'em faction and and really as far as I'm concerned very very sadly ishutin salem actually chose not to enter this unity government that's how I see it I saw it as our responsibility again as it's hot grabbing said when he entered a unity government I don't know if this is what the voters wished for but I know what the election results are and we had three not one not two three elections in a row and after the second election results as far as I was concerned you know the president created an option for a unity government it was right then already and you know nobody won this election in a way that could form a government without forming a unity government but again how lucky are we that we have the opportunity for a unity government that actually reflects what the situation is in Israel and what the situation is in Israel is that the majority 90% of us agree on 90 percent of the issues 90 percent of the times in the global reality where societies are becoming very extreme and pulling their and very polarized I see that as a blessing and I see blue and white as a reflection of what Israeli society actually does in its everyday behemoths mum when you look at the 40,000 on for-profit organizations that offer their services regardless of religion or gender or anything else Jewish and Arab and Ashkenazi and easily and women in me you look at those organizations and you look around our dinner tables and you look at what Israeli society does on a daily level this is a very United Society it's not at all a torn apart society and for me blue and white or the project that is blue and white and the reason that I was happy thrilled to join blue and white is somebody that has really tirelessly worked towards unity and towards a national reconciliation process is that there would finally be a trickle up so what the public and the Israeli public is phenomenal but the public already does has to have a reflection in its political leadership as well in a selected leadership as well and if I neglected to say this that part of it makes this really a field I mean the other you know mommy schlafly I'm a lawyer you know I that's what I am I know how to use the law I know how to you know both on you know personal issues or or fighting terror or the issues but you know as I said the golden casein clause in the international law context but this is really actually hold and and that's the opportunity that this government presents and you took some flack though right because you broke away from tell em in order to go into the Knesset so look I'll say I'll say something about that first of all on a very technical level tell him tell him imploded not only did blue and white implode because they should team tell him left but the faction I came from tell him more than a third left so you as indignant speaker Hauser left Salem and when that happened had I been there in that situation and it didn't just happen it happened because you know let's say in the case of two conflicting election promises when election results came about the broken promise of not forming a government with parties that don't acknowledge the right of the State of Israel to exist as Jewish and democratic really it shouldn't be swept under the carpet it was a real issue and it tends to get a little bit swept under the carpet so that went in with the joint list yeah I mean I would say again I stress a party that doesn't acknowledge the right of the State of Israel to exist as Jewish and democratic because that was part of that that's part of what tell him tell him stands for - I'll do week nominal seats so the word on the field is defeat is very difficult to translate it's raising translate but but but we have a duty meaning yeah that was out there a hundred percent but also but also what tell him represented was um that that as I said a party that doesn't acknowledge the right of the State of Israel to exist as Jewish and democratic that that's to say is democratic the state of all its citizens as Jewish and democratic cannot be a part of the coalition when tell him imploded in that way you know and then of course then yes you tell him decided not to enter blue if he had been there at that time then I would have had the right to choose and so when I entered Knesset through what's called the Norwegian law which basically the reason it's called the Norwegian law is that in Norway it's customary that all ministers resign so that the incoming MKS that are on their list can actually serve the Parliament and actually in order to keep the separation of powers much clearer so the executive branch and the and the and the legislative branch don't overlap in that way we have of course our own Israeli model of it because there's some sort of a scale that each party was able to have a certain number of Ministers resign and a certain number of MKS enter I was that that right rolled forward so I received the right to choose which of the parties that my original party could hold upon we were a joint slate don't forget Salem came together with Costa Mesa came together with he formed a joint slate or the way that we said it at the time was first name tail and last name blue and white and I am and and I was preferred to blue and white as a reflection of what I said of what I believe should be the reflection of Israeli society I as a and I'll say one right you know one more time I'm very sorry that yeshuati tell him chose not to enter this unity government and by the way had they chosen it we would have had a smaller government I probably wouldn't be inclusive there wouldn't be a need for a Norwegian law and and so I say it you know I say it wholeheartedly I said it along the process of my decision-making process which I share and and and I believe that that's what we had to do that was really the only way that the only responsible way that blue and white could act after three difficult election rounds of elections mm-hmm so when it comes to the corona there's a lot of a lot of unhappiness now in Israel a lot of editorials I don't know if you read McCormack stronsay its new Cohen on Shabbat that we're getting and I don't know if this is just for Israel it's probably in other countries well there isn't there doesn't seem to be one voice speaking there seems to be a lot of contradictory information and a lot of confusion masks not masks gatherings not gatherings opening this opening that and now it's only getting stronger here we've got about a thousand cases a day and it looks like it's not my husband as a physician you just walked in there's a lot of things happening here and this really could quickly get out of control and with it doesn't seem that there's any one body that's taking care of it and people are complaining we have a unity government that said it was coming together in order to deal with possibly definitely the biggest health crisis we've ever had but possibly one of the biggest crises we have ever had period what is happening why is nobody running this show so I'll see some things that I'll say something that I've said in multiple committees that I sit on in various context because I think it's relevant for our conversation but also in the various context of the committees that we have this discussion first of all I'll say that we are in an unfolding crisis it's not uh it's not as being big amount meaning this is not a quick we're very weary usually very good at crises very very good at crises but but that's so long as they're very focused yeah exactly and and and and they have a very clear definitive end this does not have a clear definitive end and what we're a little bit less good at and that's what the state is when I say good governance long-term planning long-term holistic planning long-term in term in astareal planning that's where I say herein lies the opportunity right the coronavirus challenge and opportunity is also to begin thinking or changing our mindset another paradiddle shift by the way in the way that we conceive the role of the executive and the legislative branches and we talked about this incessantly in the various committees but I what I want to say about this is we need the public's trust on this issue if we are going to be able to conduct any kind of proper protection and there are balancing a constant balancing of Rights here between the the duty to protect the public health and the imperative not to harm the economy in a way that we just can't we won't be able to recover from it we have four million unemployed we have you know businesses going under it physically economically emotionally we have people actually this is very very unlike the Israeli public eighty-five percent the Israeli public expressed anxiety at their economic futures that's very unlike the Israeli public so I say and as I said I've said this in every possible committee that I sit in we have a responsibility to begin to use good governance protocol and principles of transparency and accountability and access of information in in different I laid two different demography because in order to make the information accessible it's not just talking about language it has to convey be conveyed to the her eighty secular different leave into the art sector differently and and all the while to try and communicate the organizing logic in a changing situation and it is it's changing everyday it's a very tall order and in that sense all the more the fact that there's a corona Cabinet that this unity government enabled that there is collective responsibility meaning if anybody takes this country to elections now it would just be ludicrous and that I've collected responsibilities in the corona cabinet that addresses first and foremost what binds us together doesn't again Arabs Jews women Manish Kennedy's Friday this iris is not choosing a sir it's not a hundred percent and we are in this together around around the Knesset tables around the committee tables and and and and and hopefully most people actually don't use it or abuse it to speak position but actually talk about the merits of the need to collaborate and we have to hold ourselves to a much higher account of transparency because we need the public's trust and yeah I can tell you as missus public you're losing a hundred percent a hundred percent and and the one thing I'll say about the public's trust and the need to ask the public to take personal responsibility is the public also has to become aware of something and that is we've outsourced personal responsibility in many ways in our lives over the last and say a long time including you know this digital platform we've outsourced personal responsibility in many many ways and it's time to for the public to also acknowledge the imperative to take back for some responsibility by the way we felt it with our own children under closure right all of the sudden parents were like what do I do I don't know what to do with these children in this house and and we're so accustomed to outsourcing there's all kinds of things that have happened over time or as I said digital platforms communications speech free speech how do we regulate it what do we regulate it and I think that there's a concerted effort and a dance that has to happen here between the public and the elected leadership and hopefully not with hopefully not with people taking advantage of it because the other thing that happened in this unity government is who's in opposition and so long as the opposition is responsible then even that is is an opportunity right really to focus around something that binds us all together and so you look I keep shining the spotlight back on the you know I say the challenges that were underlying they were always here all coronavirus did was just shine a huge spotlight on all of them and make them urgent the sad piece is in Israel the urgent always takes over the important and we keep pushing off the important the only the only place for possibility or for opportunity here is that there are so many issues that for so long have been sidelined because they aren't urgent and possibly if we do this right we can also begin to take into account that need for longer-term planning for full transparency whether it's with regard to how we handle this on the health front on the economic front in terms of immigration to Israel I mean these are all long-term plans that need to be addressed mm-hmm in terms of let's say security I was listening to somebody on the radio today who can't wear a mask because he is breathing problems so he has a note from his doctor that he doesn't have to but then when the police stopped him and want to give him a fine because he's not wearing a mask or he can't get into a building because he's not wearing a mask and he shows the note they say we don't care that doesn't hold any water here it's not binding in terms of the law the note from your doctor so there's a lot of lacunae that need to be straightened out and please just tell me that with all the committee meetings something is going to happen soon with the Israeli public has remember we had during the Gulf War Nachman shy meetings really so the most important thing I think the most important challenge will be actually to create that sense of trust to build that sense of trust in in the government decision so that the public does take the personal responsibility because at the end of the day without the public taking personal responsibility for this outbreak we can't get it under control there's nothing that we can do it doesn't even matter if there's legislation and an enforcement of the legislation we need public trust we need to hold it and we need to even at the public we need to get a message that makes sense and it's consistent that's right it's just in transparent but but but we have to know that reality is changing so the message changes right pretty often that you know especially in our world very often that's perceived as other they're not telling me the whole truth because it's changed so dramatically we just had a session on last week you know weddings were authorized and things seemed okay I'll say one more thing it was it was used not by everybody but it was used or abused in ways that you know the 250 you know limitation weddings was actually much larger people are not wearing masks socially distancing is not enforced and they became like weddings became hot beds for spreading the virus right and and and you know in weddings by definition are places where we see people we love and we kiss and then dance together and hold hands and sit together it's your size yeah precisely and and so and so there's there's it's also I think it's also a cultural thing and I think we have to know and know ourselves as a culture first of all we're really good under as I said a crisis and but this is a long-lasting one this is something we have to learn to live with not die from right like this could last or even longer yeah we're even longer and and and there's no like there's no so there's a next same way yeah yeah right but there's also like that there's no like special like it's relevant to all of us it can happen to all of us right and so again that place for personal responsibility is huge tech people you know from you know with the week or whatever immune systems the elderly right so why and and yes government has to have the transparency the accountability as much as possible explain the guiding logic I agree with you nothing much I was an example I guess there needs to be a uniform message and again the corona cabinet is the place where you know where that should be the address that has to be there we know now have all the information both epidemiology every single thing happen and you still did I'm telling the public right right right and it's a place where I would say it's most important that that we do have this unity government happening you know assuming that assuming that we manage to either you know decrease the numbers gain the public's trust manage this process transparently and so on will justify itself mm-hmm and until then we're gonna be an island because no one's going anywhere no one's coming in so thank you very strange that is you talked about an article in you know in in McCauley Shan this week the guy's second also wrote a very important piece about hmm you know about the the need that we all have to take responsibility in a different kind of way and spend it was a very insurance I like did I read it to my husband I Sehgal says I should go shopping exactly nicely that's right but but but in fact it was a really interesting perspective in that sense you know this is the time to you know jumpstart the economy back and if I'm living in and we're not traveling abroad and we're not I mean God forbid like there really are a million people who don't know you know how they're gonna put food on the table so of course that's the most important thing we have to have on our priority list right now is addressing those challenges and try to in some way assuage the concerns that cuz I'm just saying bye to my staff will leave you okay it's labor booking again by yes I'm gonna end imagine they're worried about you yes yeah no they're right there right I do have right you do have a family son yeah yeah go pick up so we'll end the conversation but really I'll be delighted to talk again Eve as issues come up about something that maybe you up on that because I'm already thinking like would you want to be Prime Minister one day that's from my mind might be a little early you've been a member of knesset for all of two weeks but you know you know yet you know that the sense of responsibility and that they're really the tremendous sense of responsibility and and and and really the looking at this with humility and with full responsibility for by the way to represent the entire Israeli public mmm-hmm Oh shape sizes and minds right and also the Jewish people worldwide so the tremendous responsibility that's all that I'm focused on at the moment ideally not you know I'm not thinking beyond that but I know that I know that I'm accountable to the entire Israeli public and to the Jewish people since I know your parents I was in their home in Montreal I've known them for a long time I'm going to say that a lot of that is hardwired into you a mother who's just a force of nature on so many different levels an amazing human being and a father who was no less than the Justice Minister of Canada and is one at the forefront of human rights I mean on every single level I don't know of anyone who has worked harder than he has it's really on and every unflavoured and everything around the world and so with that atmosphere that you grew up in and ice and the skills that your particular skill set that you have I think that there the sky's the limit for you and I I just wish you a lot of strength because I know that it the political arena here is not an easy one and there's a lot of things that are low like me on as they say they're not to the issue because of ego and who knows what and I really hope that you know you you you get even half of what you want to get accomplished you'll get done would be really incredible and we're going to be following you Thank You Eve I look forward to continuing a conversation solutely absolutely delighted that you're in the Knesset okay Michal Cutler one member of Knesset with a lot to do thank you so much for joining me here on rejuvenation okay now go home to your family they need you too okay you too all right my pleasure absolutely my pleasure okay everybody I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I did she's really an up-and-coming star so you can always write to me Eve at the Land of Israel dot-com if you have any comments please keep them nicely written I get some that are not so nicely written and that's a you'd say we want to say but say it in a way that you would like someone to speak to you just throwing that out there thank you to Tabitha Ben for everything that they do take care everybody I will be back so have a wonderful wonderful week goodbye for now [Music] enhance your faith deepen your understanding align your destiny with the Land of Israel subscribe to the Land of Israel fellowship an exclusive virtual seminar led by Jeremy Gimpel and Arie Abramowitz with live weekly interactive sessions and 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