Rejuvenation: Mourning has Broken

[Music] hi everybody Keith Harrow rejuvenation on the land of israel Network it is May 5th 2020 the 11th day dr 5780 still in are over 19 world israel pulling out of it to a great extent people out and about real pink schools even gym oh my goodness i might actually get to this pool in the next couple of weeks but there's definitely a sense hopefully God willing that the worst is behind us the numbers are falling and it said it definitely a sense of optimism here in the air so I am on the line today with someone who you know very very well Gil Hoffman who of course you know as Land of Israel Network podcaster now on hiatus but his day job when he's not with us his chief political correspondent and analyst at the Jerusalem Post but more importantly than that a good friend so hi gild the morning good morning Eve pleasure being with you on rejuvenation I love your show well thank you so some of you might be wondering why is skill on it is different to be interviewed than to be the interviewee and Gil and I have been in virtual touch of course a lot over the last few weeks as he's gone through a very difficult time in his life and I thought that a lot of you could relate to what's been going on with Gil and I felt that it was worth dragging him out of his nut semi-retirement but out of his hiatus in order to share with us a little bit of his thoughts and and what's been happening you guys can't see him but he has he's normally clean-shaven he's got a beard because of also because of the mourning period that the O'Mara that we're in right now were religious men generally don't shave but also because he is in personal morning so Gil what has been happening with you in the last few weeks since our listeners last I heard from you well when I last had a show which is gonna crack hopefully I went to America to visit mother um I for the second time this year with encouragement of me because I knew that she didn't have much left my mother's been five s cancer on offer 12 leaves and it the cancer had to be spread to her a and and came January she was still in very good spirits and everything and fighting and when I came back in March immediately after our election here she was no longer interested in fighting and it was very clear that this would be the last visit and so while there were those who told me not to get on that plane and so shortly after I arrived in the United States the Israeli government did decide require a two-week quarantine period upon our return to Israel from anywhere in the world I'm still very glad that I went and spent time with her because on the second day of passive verse he asked I know that with everything that's going on here in the world and you're talking about going to Chicago of course which which is your hometown there are many people who haven't had a chance to say goodbye because of the travel restrictions because of sometimes even when people are in the same town as somebody else if someone's dying you know of the kovat then they can't go in because of fear that they themselves will get sick so you left your mom knowing that it was there knowing you that it was goodbye knowing also that you were going to come back to Israel and sit for two weeks in quarantine but that was a decision that you made in order to do that when when you left to do your mom also know it was goodbye I mean she was she was aware of the situation she was in mm-hmm I think when you stopped taking some of your medicine you're making a decision no but she did ultimately fall down a group of three four hadn't steps and what we've understood is because she could no longer stand at that point that that it was a cancer not anything else that made that happen mm-hmm then taken to a hospital and when you have a combination of cancer and blood in your brain that's a very bad thing to have mm-hmm she only woke up after that twice once twas on a Friday to tell my father that she loves I only found out about that on Saturday night because it had already been Shabbat over here mm-hmm and then on Sunday my sister was with her and she called me and said Yuma's eyes are open and so I she put the phone to her and I said to her EEMA Elia and Amir with me my children mm-hmm and she sat up all of a sudden with enthusiasm and waved to them Wow and then incredible and then lie down again and never opened up her eyes again hmm the last thing my mother did was show her love to my children and that's something that I'm sure they and I will remember from mm-hmm absolutely one of the one of the considerations that many of us have when we moved to Israel is leaving parents behind leaving family behind is not everybody comes together you were raised did your mom raised you as a Zionist it was just something she knew you'd be a part but is it something that she encouraged that you come to Israel that you raise a family here even knowing that that the distance would make a difference because she was certainly a very loving mother and grandmother it can't have been easy for her to have been so far away not just at the end of her life but during her healthy years you've been here for quite a while but did you Cheam beaut you with that during your childhood and young adulthood Eva absolutely of course oh I know that I hide it pretty well and you can tell from my accent in either language but both of my parents were raised in Israel my mother was born in Jerusalem in January 1948 so she would say that she's Palestinian right the heckley she always before they always told the story he always told the story about how in the war of independence the glass shattered over her crib from a window when there was an explosion and that when she was a baby and that she was okay because her mother had moved a blanket or a screen over her moments before mm only about a month before she died that I hear from an end that that explosion was actually from the terrorist attack that was against the Alice tide post building in downtown Jerusalem Wow so for those of you who don't know the Palestine Post is the first version of what's now known as The Jerusalem Post of course palace of course a Jewish paper because even before May of 1948 when someone referred to Palestinians they were referring to Jews and I hope all of you know that right now how that is all been being completely twisted so of course here's an irony that your mother was saved by a miracle essentially as a child from the attack of Arabs against the pasión Post and here you are many many years later she one of the chief correspondents are really one of the anchors I would say to a great degree of that paper so that's a that's a great story that was the first time that that the post tried to prevent me from living mm-hmm continuing on that vein ever since so my parents only came to America initially for a year to study mm-hmm father wanted to bring television to Israel really uh right right after his army service and then one thing led to another was another year another year they always told us that this is where it should live and I have a sister whom a Dahlia at 18 a long before I came here who's very successful in high tech here and I have two sisters a doctor and a lawyer in Chicago who are successful there with families there right I don't expect to move here and because of that my mother really always lived on both sides of the Atlantic mm-hmm that was her life she never left Israel she lived a very Israeli life in Chicago and her accent remained her Israeli accent was always mm-hmm so Israel remained in her heart even though she wasn't physically here where was she buried you know there's been a lot of a lot of people who Jews who died in the United States want to be buried here in Israel I would love if Jews lived in Israel but there are a lot of people who that that's their last request is that they be brought to Israel which it these days is super super complicated simply because there aren't that many flights coming right now and there are still people who are managing to do it but it is definitely not as easy as it used to be so some people are being buried there then going to be reinterred other people are just being buried there what did what it was the decision that your family took regarding your mom well my mother already had a grave here mm-hmm or the coronavirus happen and so she is in a mausoleum in the Chicago area mm-hmm my father will bring her home here when you can have a proper funeral proper funeral with all of her loved ones there mm-hmm we have a very very very large family thank God and so when it happens there will be thousands of people and it's only when that is possible will she come home mm-hmm so I'm not sure all my listeners know how very important the whole death process is when it comes to Jews you real you know if it all possible we bury as soon as we can no one levered no one leaves the body during the entire time there's a tremendous respect it's really classic elemets a true respect a true kindness because the person can't pay you back but there is just as opposed to our enemies who will even desicrew very much of a death cult and will desecrate bodies has happened let's say on the Mount of Olives and other Jewish cemeteries around the world reeling until this day Judaism is very very different when it comes to respecting the dead person and so this is not an ideal situation but given the sieve and what's happening with the pandemic these are also the holic dispensations that have been given by the rabbis because really you try not to reenter you try not to you know disturb the dead in any way so you sat Shiva it's actually because your mother passed away on Passover you really had a two week Shiva because when when someone passes away on a festival you don't start the official mourning period until after the festival is over so here your mom died early on Passover and it's not like you weren't mourning your mom had passed away but the official time were people come to visit or in this case zoom into you so how was that this kind of postponing the Shiva but starting the morning and and I'm asking you also not as a friend but also as a journalist because I I know that journalists tend to and I don't know if you do this see things sometimes in third-person even while we're experiencing something we also sometimes step out of ourselves to see it as we would if we were reporting on it did you have that or you were in this case like just completely immersed in the first-person experience that's a fascinating question even I don't know how to answer it indeed I did have two weeks of Shiva and that gave me more time to heal to talk to my family to be a part of what was going on to learn the very many laws involved in mourning and to celebrate my mother's life and the zoom as you mentioned I zoomed into Shiva was an incredible experience now I have never sat Shiva normally using the normal rules mm-hm I hope I don't have to for another 40 years my father is 75 and in good health thank God she live in but my because I as I mentioned my mother lived in two worlds with her family here in Israel and with her friends who became like family in Chicago for her assume Shiva was actually the right thing whether there would be cold but or not because that is what allowed our family to be together we had wonderful experiences on these divas I conduct my own and my sisters in Chicago conducted them sometimes they were only for family sometimes they were more random but each time I got to hear more and more stories about my mother's life and so you asked about seeing things through a third person and being a reporter well yeah I got to ask a lot of questions and learn more and you know what Eve it only made me miss my mother more you heard about stories probably that you hadn't heard before and how she affected other people's lives which I think is the main thing that happens when we lose someone that we love is we want them to not be forgotten that we're not gonna forget them as clear but that they affected other people during in her case a too short life and that they have a place for her always in their hearts and in their minds I would imagine made it made the pain greater because the loss is not just your loss and your family's loss but on the other hand she will live on for a very long time in other people's lives and the effect that she had on them as well so the the pendulum it sounds that week swung very wide for you and it's interesting that you say that zoom was actually good because normally to pay a Shiva : and for those who are not familiar Shiva means Sheva it comes from the word seven it's the seven days of mourning the excluding Shabbat the very intense days that normally you sit in your house nobody you don't do anything for yourself people come they bring your meals they come and visit and only in this situation now with Co feed has it in kind of you know zooming in although people will call you from outside the country people can't come to visit you but this way you kind of brought the world into your living room you physically couldn't have people come and visit it was really the peak of the pandemic and people weren't coming at all but you had more people in there because of this crazy kind of a situation that I mean who would have imagined mm-hmm now because of your work a lot of people know you I mean maybe didn't know your mom but are familiar with you virtually every politician I would imagine in Israel and more were they able to express their condolences yes across the political spectrum president Rivlin I sent me a very nice letter that I read aloud in the Shiva mm-hmm been against took partnership a Yuli Edelstein so two Knesset speaker really three that's three Knesset speakers in a row right there which is very special for me over the Knesset for twenty years you don't saw Isaac Herzog there were really may Rodney le politicians from across the political spectrum who wrote and called and were a part of it and yeah her lipid and made my family feel very special with all the noise and sometimes really it's more than noise its nastiness and that in the Israeli political world when it comes to life cycle events let's say paying a Shiva call even going to a wedding it's it's to bury you I think people would be surprised and now the politics drops away I remember years ago paying a Shiva call to Yehuda Glick whose wife had passed away someone who's very much associated with the Temple Mount and very much on the right and there were Arab members of Knesset who word they are paying a Shiva call when I was there as well and people who you wouldn't have expected because beyond all of the as I said all of the noise and all of thee and all of the not then of the disagreements there is still because I think it's a small world and you also touch a lot of people on different ends of the spectrum it's very surprising sometimes how all of that drops away and when it comes to maybe it's a Jewish thing I don't know when it comes to really what's important and family is so important those of us here in Israel then you know there's no there's no discussion if you just go in and eat and you really with your real heart it's I don't think did you feel that anybody was forcing themselves to because they needed to because they had in this case they could didn't have to be seen this wasn't a popularity contest because nobody would have known if they zoomed in or not it was very very personal and maybe even intimate and I think it's fantastic that you had so many people from across the board join in and offer you condolences and and know what it feels like you know to lose a mom which in this case I love we've been getting my to speak to my mother's doctors they came onto the ship my father told the story in one of the first days of the Shiva about how my mother forced him to go by orchids which are very expensive plans and in the middle of Coe bid it's very hard to get flowers or anything in America right now especially for a person over 70 who really should be staying at home mmm he did it he went and he got these 7-7 orchid plants and my mother went around in a wheelchair in the hospital distributing them to the doctors who took care of her in honor of what was supposed to be her second to last radiation treatment um in this round and she fell down when they were about to leave for the last radiation treatment which means for last time that she arrived at the hospital I just she gave very special presents to her doctors who does that I was sitting with my daughter while my father told this story and she says to me afterward how did she know and I said to her your grandmother was just an amazing what a beautiful story and that's something I think that will sit with your daughter for the rest of her life and perhaps you know encourage her to be like that to think outside of herself she's learned a lot from from her grandmother and the lake garden best qualities mm-hmm and also I would have met and your kids were home during all your Shiva I'm usually you know in a normal world sometimes the kids go to school during the day and then come back and you know the because they we sit Shiva for our immediate relatives the parents espouse siblings and God forbid really god forbid in a gazillion sense children but the the kids didn't have to sit Shiva for your mom a grandparent isn't isn't included in that list but because of what's happening now your kids were home with you a good part of the time and I would imagine they got to hear conversations and people saying things about your mom that they work that might not have heard otherwise Eve my kids were home the entire Shiva and home means two places for them because their mother lives not far from here and I she in a concern though you used they shouldn't be in an environment of grieving or whatever maybe they should spend more time at their mother's house and I had to explain absolutely not they're part of the celebration of their grandmother's life over here and they loved taking part in these zoom conversations and being a part of it as did my sister's children they were they played a very central role and it was a very important growth experience for them and so when they actually were at their other home the last couple days they voluntarily and willingly and eagerly joined the Shiva on zoom' from there no which was very special and I do believe that both parents and children who have been through a divorce can actually handle loss better because than others who have not been through a divorce because we deal with loss all the time I lose my children every week and every week that's sad and they lose a parent every time when they go to the other parent and obviously it's not permanent but it's not unnoticed and it's and it's always going to be emotional and that will never fully heal that's a very interesting that's a very interesting perspective that you just gave yeah and your children know that too I would imagine you're not the kind of dad that holds back when it comes to life lessons to his children and I think we all have a sense now from describing your mom in the last few minutes about where you got that but um but that seems like you really rated deep for them hmm important exactly are important for me to convey to them and in fact when I was in quarantine for two weeks alone literally alone it was an empty apartment I made a point of giving my children a lesson every day I gave him a class is what we called it so they would be in attention um somewhere between half an hour and an hour every day I tried to teach them something that I know about whether it would be Israeli politics or history of Zionism or Chicago sports every day they learn something and we had guest lecturers and my children's last extended conversation with my mother she was the guest lecturer for my class he and Jim spoke them for a close to an hour about how she met my father in the army and how they fell in love and what it was like in the army back in those days six-day war and it was very special that they got to have that so yes deep and lessons have been conveyed mm-hmm sounds like the ultimate in a substitute teacher when it comes to home schooling at least on that level so are you you're now after Shore shame there's now the thirty days are you finished with the thirty days completely lost track of time now no you're still there is that only started with a jaw of a beard I don't know it gags look very distinguished I've got hair growing on my lips and in places that there should not be you should know that most women can totally relate to you now to be gone so are you allowed to work though as much as possible I mean here we are in another political Maelstrom store maybe you could explain a little bit to us what's going on because you still you're covering the stories and trying to make some sense over what's happening this week in Israel look there were two days left in the Shiva when Lieberman is Ashley I'm gonna deal with a and the rise dormant and working in those three days chip and I keep in mind fourteen so right wasn't such a bad thing to do and yes I start reporting from momen that they can be channel on the night of Holocaust room say and since then they've been wing on translating that Hill into government mm-hmm which is something at a time this coming Thursday will be important today because that's when gassing I know laws and as a safe form of government which Garen trust from one party to another mm-hmm only after that will they get to deal with a ministerial appointments and whether Yamina will be part of the government on the right and so there will be an actual period after this Thursday in which Netanyahu officially has the mandate and then the deadline the former government would then be weeks from yesterday on the 25th of May but even then there's a one-week period where the Knesset's speaker can stall so really June 1st the actual deadline for a government to be finalized and only then will the politicians actually start working time answering the people and no longer serving themselves which they have been doing for the last year and a half political bests so why is this in court now that's not the usual thing that happens or forming a government well what is going on when they talk about but that's and and all these sessions that are happening in the Supreme Court this week what's the problem okay there's a three different thing this is the one Netanyahu is three criminal indictments hanging over his head in the Supreme Court has to decide whether a prime minister with indice can form a government and the law is not entirely clear and we had such a situation before the other is that the coalition event was written in a shoddy a cluster pathetic even kind of way and it's full of holes and not very much else and so they need to explain to them how to make this diamond somewhat little and the third thing is that there's no trust between Netanyahu and anyone who would work with Netanyahu based on me many many many experiences before where he has broken promises to people he made them to and because of that of the promise that he is made have to be drafted and who lost and it's not entirely clear how um these laws can and whether they can in fact be drafted and whether they could be returned and so this entire process has to be gone through involving the Supreme Court before and after the government formation before can really get down to the business of governing and as many people feel myself included the Supreme Court is doesn't seem to be a neutral body one of the issues that we've had here in Israel and they're not just in Israel but in other countries as well is that there is a very big power struggle right now between the judiciary between the court system and the government who is the bottom line the government that is that is elected by the people or the judges who are brought in by themselves and it seems very clear that if the Israeli Supreme Court feels that they are the bottom line that they are the ultimate arbiter if you will and they can make they can supersede Knesset decisions so given that where do you think the Supreme Court is going here if if the justices themselves don't like Netanyahu and the law here as you said is very up in the air because there's no precedents for this do you see this feel that it's inevitable that their own political leanings are going to impact the decision that they make in court Eve your question came in very choppy but if I've understood correct your question is about the intervention of the Supreme Court at a time when the people of it'll have made a very firm decision that they want to have community government led by Netanyahu that he's drafted a coalition of Senate Knesset members potentially which is a very large majority that the polls say that people overwhelmingly still want him in power and recruited self actually got the votes that any party ever gotten in history on our election their second at yet the Supreme Court needs to be there have worked overseeing our government because if not our missions with things that are proper we need to have a media as a watchdog we need to have courts as a watchdog you have a prime minister who's gotten away with things that are not legal both that he's already been cleared of and both that he's already been made deals to get out of and so there are things that have not yet been friend that he did or maybe he won't be proven that he did but there are things that he did and so we have to be very very careful and and also you know this cold bill was drafted by lawyers apparently didn't do a very good job because it's a rather pathetic document so it it needs to be fixed and it needs to be added to for instance there's no guidelines for anything the government will do every other government we've had has had clear guidelines on every possible issue this document says we're gonna deal with code 19 and we'll draw up and do what and then we'll tell what our opinion is on actual issues and the judges said you can't get away with that and it's an owl's lawyer said fine we'll draft up coalition guidelines before the government is sworn in caved in on that immediately in court yesterday which just shows how flimsy they even knew going into court they came in not ready so you're actually saying the record is right guidelines I cover them they take weeks right they have to long board they have to start from scratch and there's also a chance here that we could still go to new elections we could have elections again in August technically yes and there are people who are serious people who think this will happen I'm not one of them but technically during that two-week period when Netanyahu has the mandate he could still tried to try to form a government without gas he made very clear last night that he would not do that or he could decide to go to election he made very clear didn't last night when he spoke to the people in a in a press conference that he would not do that he said the fourth election would be a disaster for Israel yeah and he knows what he's talking about it's physically impossible to carry out and Elend right now he right so this is this coalition agreement is going to have to be fixed up so that we know what it is we're getting but it sounds like you're a little wary of what's happening here like a lot of fishy things could happen and that the court is right to a certain degree to be demanding clearer guidelines on the other hand the court has its own reasons possibly for not wanting to see Netanyahu is Prime mr. so this the fact that I'm confused I see is is how a lot of people are feeling because it sounds like even the lawyers and the people that are right in the thick of it don't have a whole lot of clarity on what's happening yes we still have to deal with a lot of technicalities before we have a government urge people to be patient we will eventually have one and then we'll be out of our political crisis and we're at the end of the coab in crisis and hopefully it won't come back and I think they're really bright days ahead for Israel when we'll be out of both of these crises the same time when we work on a rebuilding and rejuvenation right yes and rejuvenation exactly so one more question and then I'll let you go are you worried about Israeli democracy there's been a lot of talk about that between the fact that we don't have a functioning government really that a lot of even let's say draconian behaviors were put into play because of kovat and Israel's not the only country dealing with this where you have a very large police presence in civilian areas people getting tickets for doing this and that because of having to keep the pandemic from spreading but there are some people who will say that some of the authority was overstepped are you concerned at all do you think Israeli democracy is strong enough to weather both of these storms that we have right now the health storm and the political storm or because we also sort of a constitution and some of the things that other countries have certain basic laws that keep things in play are you concerned at all or you think that we're going to be just fine because of a strong media and because of a very noisy population it also doesn't take things lying down at least to a great degree you're concerned or not look because we're government did not actual functioning government the Prime Minister was able to take care of things himself powers you would not know him have and if anything that might have made Italy run back cause he's an experienced person who knows how to deal with crises and we will not always have someone so experienced at the helm of his own crisis and so he knew how to bring down the restrictions gradually to make people accept them and he'd faster that others did including America maybe not as fast as he could have in part because he then went upset America and so he did his from the people of Israel adapted as best as they could and then when we have a functioning government that conducing previous that identity a caretaker government could not friends mm-hmm applying sovereignty to the Land of Israel which it knows important to a lot of our listeners here well that could not have been done without a fully functioning government in the Trump camp and delaying the release of his flag knee and then he announced it to help it's in Yahoo's campaign when he did but it couldn't be implemented yet well this plan even a core to the short coalition guidelines that there were is do to be implemented already from the 1st of July which is coming up quickly yes and this is a government that can implement it and this is a president the United States who can implement it and you never know what the next government of is gonna be and you never know who the next United States mm-hmm so that period between when we finally have a government could be as late as the 1st June and when America has thought up as president which could be you know January you never know could be a very fateful time future of the State of Israel that Israel in the people business well all right it's going to be a hot summer either way either way we cut it all right Gil Hoffman thanks so much for joining me today looking forward to having your your own podcast back here when things settle down for you and thanks really for sharing the memories of your mom the unusual circumstance is that if accompanies you in the last few weeks but the fact that you are still so devoted to to what you do and to being a correspondent in to really making sure that things are clear for your for your readers in a very very complicated situation and I think that when one doesn't have to listen between the lines to the last few minutes are speaking to you to understand that you're not swayed one way or the other you're very clear on the facts you may be very clear that Netanyahu as a leader did an excellent job here when it came to the pandemic because he deals with crises and he knows how to get things done but on the other hand you're not letting him off the hook when it comes to maybe crimes that he did or certainly things that need to be put on the table and and dealt with he can't get away with that being an excellent leader doesn't let you have free rein perhaps to doing things that leaders should not do and I think that that that voice that you have is a very very important voice that you that we need here in the country and I for one am very glad that you're out there and in doing what you need to do so you will really be well when people say that these days it's not just their say you know a throwaway and they thank all my listeners I want to apologize for the not great audio quality that I have here and for the delays because of Cova 19 I have not been able to get a cable that I needed from my computer and therefore my interviewers are not at the level that I would like them to be but hopefully that will be taken care of in the near future Eve hair rejuvenation on the Land of Israel Network you can write to me Eve at the Land of Israel comm with many things always to Bennet to Tabitha who are really there no matter what time of day to get our shows out and very much appreciative of that especially Tabitha's got kids in her house so it's not always so simple to get everything done but they're there all the time so take care everyone and all of you be well and God willing I will be back next week