Rebbi Akiva's Pesach Seder By Rabbi Ari Kahn

I mean I actually last week last week I I almost spoke about tazria and that was close enough like I like right right right and and I told you the chances of me talking about msar we're nil right so let's so so today's topic it's not going to be clear from anything over here so let's start by the beginning first of all today's sheer is sponsored by shulie haston shulie we're going to have to bother her to start coming back to the share again shie shulie used to come every week shulie was a student of mine in bar line I don't know how many years ago and her husband also they both they met there on the program husband is Josh haston so it's for the foolish LMA for her father Mala and also Joshua manaster in memory of his father for his father pin and yob Y so it should be and it should be and let's let's learn the the title or the topic which is not written for you is re a s okay that that's one of the famous episodes from the hag we'll get there you'll have to give me a little bit of time till we get there but that's that's where we're headed but first I want to start with something with which I so apologize for this word but is more authentic so here's a little secret the story of raka which is in the hagada right the story of the rabbis who went and had the Seder and babra there's no source for that no having no source for that is not the biggest issue because we know not every single book that existed in Antiquity made it down to modern times but my point is it's not in the mishna it's not in the gar it's not in the B it's not in the it's not in the to it's not of the med it's not the med which means we do not have the source for that the only source that exists for that is the a of P which that itself is interesting now there is a different Source now I said the other source is more authentic it's more authentic for two reasons one is just based upon the last couple of words that I said it's actually in the rinic sources it's here staring at us the TOA but there's a second issue first all read it and then I'll explain it now that's a line that some of you should recognize this is to this is per towards the end of the so let's pause there for a second so we know that this is what we say to the wise son and that by the way is in the med and that is as an answer to the Y sign is in the med in the MTA and this line itself is also paralleled in the mishna so what actually does it mean the p in this context is the Corban PES and and that's also something which is really interesting that along the way we kind of lost the language on a Torah level and we've said this many times on a Torah level the word PES only refers to the actual bringing of the offering and the day or the time that that offering is brought the 7-Day holiday is always referred to as and there are two separate interconnected holidays one of them is p and one of them is and part of the complexity of the inter relationship is something that we're going to speak about but over here when we're answering the wise son or just over here as a general rule what's the rule once you eat the Corbin P then you should not eat anything else and a what ises afik mean most likely it means dessert so now it's funny because now we turn the afik into the matah which places the Corban p and then we think the aik is something which you do eat well the thing it says about the afik is you can't eat an aik which means the taste of the Corbin PES should be lingering in your mouth the taste of redemption the taste of and it gives examples okay period a person is obligated to be involved in the study of the laws of PES all night now there's a couple things that we need to pay attention to one is again getting way ahead of ourselves there is an argument as to until which point can you eat the Corbin PES the opinion of Rea is until the morning the opinion of Laria is only until midnight the presum like is like Rea and over here we're just told anonymously that a person is is obligated to be involved in the study of the laws of PES now when I told you that there are two things about this know one more authentic than the is more authentic than the other teaching during the time that the betam mikdash stood the central star of the night was the Corbin pesak the the celebration all revolved around the Corbin pesak the Corbin PES was timec consuming the Corbin PES was religiously significant and everything that we did surrounded that so it's interesting over here that so far everything here as well is about the Corbin PES after you eat the Corbin PES you anything else even to eat the coron PES you still should be involved in studying the rules of the PES all night eventually at some point we're not going to have the Corbin PES anymore and once we don't have the Corbin PES that itself could be completely traumatic religiously how do we continue on what do we do and it's at that point that we find the shift and focus and the shift and focus is from this PES Centric experience to something to place and what took its place is something which was always there because I don't I don't want to misstate this mislead but it's a question of focus and also quality maybe some quantity as well and that is telling the story was always there but it's as we had more to do we had less to talk and as we have less to do then we have more to talk about and more time to talk and the talking becomes the centrality as opposed to the doing so that itself that shift is something which for us on the one hand it's obvious but on the other hand maybe we don't realize how important it is so that's why I said this thing this teaching over here starting with after thean P right the PES is is is Central and afterwards you're and then it goes on and it explains that we need to discuss the laws of p and again you your mind can very easily misread that or read something else into it because it's more familiar to us to say oh what you need to do be involved in but that's not what it says together and they were there all night until the the rooster was cing mid and then it ends up over here they then they go to midash and start the warning prayers and you realize that's very similar to the story that we know about Rea in B this is Reb in in L but over here they're being and then it ends up with what you say the so you do realize everything about this section focuses on the cor and P and that is really what we need to pay attention to look at s number two because you're familiar with this except for one small little part which means if your son knows that ask your son ask if not then your wife asks by the way what what's asked notice know about the laws of p and what do they ask so this itself is really interesting because it's again something which I think we completely don't necessarily pay attention to but the central part of the hag that we have today is the questions and then we go back telling the answers but what actually are these questions or or how are these questions framed so that was a little subtle just now but when talking about the Manana it just now called the Manana an example of asking about H if you look at source number three again this is the mishna they bring in the actual Corb P then next you pour the second cup now the son asks which by the way is exactly where our source before picked up from and if the son doesn't know how to ask the father teaches him by the way that is not about narrative that is about law that is about law oh that's a question that kind of got discontinued that's a question about so these are all questions which are not questioning or discussing necessarily the The Narrative of what took place these are all focused around the law so I'm saying when I was pointing out and I called it and I don't know if you liked it or didn't I said oh no this is quite authentic go look how authentically it meshes in together with really what the Manana is I'm not concerned how the aners to Manana but look the way that that it's connected to the Manana and it continu which isight different by the way at that point you can say oh that has more to do with narrative and this Miss seems to be saying okay the qu the kid is asking regarding the and we go and we weave in the story as we try to explain the which by the way it's really easy to do why are we eating why are we eating only SLE because we're eating meat that was roasted very quickly why are we eating meat that was roasted very quickly because that night we roasted the meat really quickly because we were preparing to leave Egypt and not only that we took the blood and put on the doorposts and and again so on and so forth but we weave the Hala into the narrative as well and that's why I'm saying I really can't disconnect them which then tells us the central place that we should be discussing Robin gam Leo who we may or may not have just seen the problem with Robin Gamel as always is there's more than one Robin Gamel so which Robin Gamel is this is this the one that was during the time of the betam Mish one which is post beta mikdash presumably the one who's in lud is post beta mikdash because he's in the time of the beta mikdash what's he doing in lud he should be there by the way that is not necessarily an impossible question but it certain would create much more Intrigue which so you're going to think only look forward and of course now we wonder which obligation have you not fulfilled but just notice that those three things reflect three of those questions that we just mentioned in the Manana so the Manana if the kid doesn't how to ask teach them the Manana teach them about the teach them about the pach teach them about the but if you don't meaning which obligation is he talking about apparently he's talking about the obligation of so according to him C cannot be done unless you discuss these three things and these three things are which means I'm going to say again there's this really interesting interplay between the story The Narrative if you will and the laws and during the time that the beta M existed the main thing was the Corman PES but we had to tell a story with it but but the story that was told revolved around the quot and at some point when we don't have this then a new story a new narrative origin will somehow uh be be presented but let's just continue a drop more is that enough we'll read a Dr more we need therefore to see our El as if we left Egypt which is the main point this is where we get the narrative from you got tell your kids what's the what's the that's very interesting by the way what is the the the Z over here I'm really I don't know how literal to be in terms of the Kish what what is taking place in Chapter 13 because that's actually pretty surprising are we talking about matah at this point or we talking about the uh are we talking over here already about p i mean you have to take a look a little bit at chapter 13 and realize that this is maybe a little more interesting than you realize but I'm going to say it again you know Z could very well be pointing at something you're pointing at the mat point the M you're pointing at the Corb P which means I'm going to say it again that PES night is this wonderful combination and merging of Hal and a merging between performance and between narrative there was a time that the performance was so dominant that the narrative had to take a backseat to it but even there it was told was you see ringham Leo's point it had to be told within within the the laws needed to be explained the performance needed to be explained and therefore this passage is probably more connected to what we just now saw TOA that reaban Gamel was having his PES SA and again what does it say in that so that should not be a surprise now you realize that that's exactly what is telling us you need to be involved in there is an interesting ran which is somewhat obscure it's in Source number four it's obscure because it's the ran in you know the back of the gamar well it used to be in the back of the garas people don't use those garas anymore in the back of the garas you have the pages of the Riff in the pages of the Riff you have the balore and then you have What's called the mil is written by the ran who over here is touching a side point the side point is about the ri quote of the gar regarding the daving VA and how important it is to D and right with the break of day that people will say at the precise time as I previously explained and there but you don't have to repeat it meaning that's the best time to do it but if you didn't do it then so you missed the best time you missed the best way and he writes we have a similar phenomena he didn't fulfill his obligation it's not they have to go and eat it again it's very interesting the ran understands rubbing say not that you didn't do the mitzah of you didn't do the mitah of that the Mitzvah of the performance requires at least a little bit of narrative and if you didn't you still did the mitv you still ate the Corb P you still ate the matah you still ate the M you again we would divide this and say it a little differently but again we we today would have said yeah you did the MIT but you didn't do the MIT of seur I'm just pointing out that it's possible that the MIT of seur and a were much tight much more tightly connected than we ever realize especially when you see all the earlier sources all the mishnaic sources that's what it really is all the sources time the mishna are focusing on and then when the performance of the got is you have to explain what you're doing and yes we know that there's another Mitzvah which seems today to be the main Mitzvah and that ispp but now look at the difference between the sources if you're not clear how to look at the differences now look at source number five which is you know before we began we were much more familiar with this it says again you can just go back and take a look again at source number one at what it actually said or look at the gar quoted in Source number two and what it says there it's but over here in our it shifts it in a certain sense it updates it it's far more relevant to us today to focus on SE and not to focus on the Corbin PES we don't have the Corbin PES but now you realize this is you know again I kept using the word authentic before but for our P experience this is much more authentic because this is what we need and this is what we do again is gone SE has now taken his place again before it was we saw that they were mu in L and now you have this group of people and is not here are are in and they were doing the midst of they were talking about that entire night until the students came then we have the continuation which maybe was spoken about then and and this is not a PES problem this is an all year problem in terms of what is the Mitzvah of saying shma at night and he says whether you say the third chapter ofma the first the third chapter of sh he say in the morning because do but what about at night at night so is there leaving do we talk about this at night again every day of the year not just so there is this obligation every night so by the way this is not to say that learia didn't do it he's just what is he saying and I could be that other people will say it because I couldn't convince others that this was correct there so I'm saying the language is interesting and I'm not going to get that far into what is saying but I do want to go back and consider a couple things regarding again this uh this Central passage so where do we begin first of all we notice as I've already said a couple of times we notice where it's somewhat updated what were they all doing in B Brock and there's lots of questions and and by the way lots of people asked lots of questions my only disappointment is that each time I I sort I've looked at a bunch of sources on this this week and everybody who asked these question kinds of make believe that no one ever asked the questions before they uh that that it occur to them I mean is whatever there are there are people writing today thinking that you know they've discovered America on this so it's it's interesting let me just say one more thing about that there is this this common theme where people will say oh there's a secret behind here by the way you can just Google Ruby ke a secret say there are lots of people like to uh call it like that but again I'm I'm not for a second to it because I mean the first thing you can ask and the most obvious is uh where's rebi ke's family where's rebbi ke's wife where his children by the way simple an is they were there what about his students so the students are there Knocking by The Doors okay that's interesting what about these other rabbis so some again again people said why AR they with their families why they maybe their families are there I I don't know what I don't know what to what to say but there is this this approach where people claim no is that this was a secret meeting and they were planning the bar for Rebellion now I'll tell you what's interesting about that what's interesting about that is I could not find anybody from the time of rabaka until the 20th century who actually said that which means it's very popular today and lots of rabbis and you've all heard it even I I don't have to you know tell you the earliest that I saw and this is not to say that no one said it before because it's really hard to uh to to see such things but as I said I I searched through as much as I could and it's I I could not find anybody there and by the way I did absolutely rely on a computer on this and I just searched words I searched AA and I searched searched Bara on on I search for bar in commentaries right so maybe I can search better maybe I can find more maybe I think I look I think I looked both bar baros he's barely called Baran Jewish sources he's called he's first called called bar well he's hinted at in thei but he's first called bar and the church fathers already he's called bar but his real name was Barosa so as I said I I could have looked but but nonetheless I didn't find anything uh obvious maybe maybe it's there and it eluded me but I do know in the 20th century the earliest at least one that I found was uh and and there are those who by the way also claim that this is a commentary which emerges from the war Sor ghetto and the war Sor ghetto up Rising is right after this and that's what they were discussing you know the rebellion and and and you know what what they were therefore saying what was going on there but the the person who already explained it before this was RAB yudon so if you ever hear of him you know who he Wason Ron his real name was Fishman maybe actually they borrowed fishmen from somebody else but uh he's one of the signers of the he he saidu immediately after afterwards everyone said I mean to his shaku both he and in Israel in Israel 1948 1948 48 yeah 1948 of myON was the ministry was a minister in uh boran's government his sister was a member of the knesset but she was a uh she was mik all the way on the other side of the political Spectrum two of them by the way made aliia together they traveled together he uh he had been an orphan at a very young age and he he was raised in the house of the rabbi who was the malbin and later on he gets smik from the and he gets from from schlomo Cohen from vilna who was D of vilna and he was he was a Magid he was somebody who was a Magid in in a town in in Europe and he was a well-known Rabbi and then at some point he comes to Israel and he he was a Zionist there as well and uh he was one of the absolute fathers of religious Zionism and he was the kind of person that have been GED some he didn't like he quit so that's it I'm going home I can't I can't no no no no but they don't quit he did and Ben and then had to craw back to him and uh and to beg him and to beg him to uh to continue he also he then he comes to Israel later on becomes friendly ra cook he's the one who opened up M ra cook you just heard of him right away right after I I talk about I haven't heard of him yeah any any any anyway I uh I found in his writings and again I don't want to mislead that I was the first I found in his writings that's the interesting thing I found in other writings as well as other people but everyone else was after him there was also like other people at the same time or a little bit afterwards or 1948 or or so on you find other people doing it which means maybe we got more I don't want to say militaristic or some of you may think I'm saying it in a negative way we we that became more to our minds of of being of an army and fighting and rebelling and doing what we need to do so I'm just saying is that it could be that for many many years this was not really on one's mind but it was wor my moon then who who then conjectures about what must have happened over there and by the way one of the people that I mentioned was thean who he was very friendly withan has a comment to the hag and he starts asking what are these people doing over here now the only reason I didn't bring down the quote from the Aran is because they were ear are people who kind of asked the same question but um but let let me at least get it lay things up a little bit more in Source number six the gar tells us this Sedin talking about looking for a good solid ba what does mean you should doed in AED way make sure that you go to the right place so now you know that RAR he lives in lud so this is one of the sources and there are others by the way the list continues there are others here this is one of the sources tells us oh he's he lived in B now I just have to say this because we can't miss this you know you never know what people will find interesting right so where was we have lud we're going to come back to lud in a moment where exactly lud was but um where where was B brck in those days now B BR most likely is not where B brck is now if you get to the point that the four hits the number one you have a garbage dump there there was bu of garbage dump which was called Korea which is now it's the Ariel Chon National Park on a garbage dump you can do anything you want with that and and that is called you ready for this you need a drum roll that's called tomet muin why is Tom called because of the that's the garbage dump is on top of that's the TA wow I wonder why they ever call that so Missin why because right you're saying and I'm just hoping somebody's here saying huh I never thought of that I mean the be but that's the reason that's that that's what they called the place that b BR was once soin because that's where they had this incredibly famous seder so even though there may have been no footprint of that story in rabic literature there is actually a footprint of that place in terms of uh so let us continue now so in s number seven so the Marat he by the way he's also has a commentary in the back of the gamarra on that GAR in Stan hedrin where it says that was ab and wasn't l so Source number seven it says now he starts discussing where where it is I mean he did not have a alive benra at the time he has to try to figure it out he goes and L was closer to Jerusalem well we'll see where M will'll look there in a moment because that miss is going to help us for a different reason aside from he that he's supposed to be in L he says I appreciate people who are quote unquote lazy who don't leave their houses people should be at home for the holidays don't don't leave the people should be at home for the holidays and so on we don't need to read the very end he goes I don't understand the story he goes what were all these rabbis doing so of course he did not know the interpretation that they were all there discussing the Rebellion I don't remember other than him just now telling me to look in the mission of man sheni I don't remember who else told me to look here but let's look here for a moment in uh man sheni per first of all it tells us that that in terms of bringing this particular MIT bring to the the amount that you would need to travel is one day's travel to Jerusalem in every direction and then it tells us say about lud here yeah lud and lud is Right lud on the western side is a one-day travel to Jerusalem so that that that that's what he was referring to is that lud is is much more Inland and it's closer to Jerusalem now it continues we're still in the mission M sheni Miss there are certain times that you need to do beer make certain I don't want to get overly technical make certain things ownerless right this has to do with the laws of M there's also some things in laws of sh about this that what is the date that you need to make it ownerless right that you have to pay your taxes what is it it's April 15th where does that come from it comes from era PES ER of PES is the date you have to make these things ownerless and then it tells us the story by the way I hope that turn a phrase now is a little familiar to us they were traveling on what day they were traveling on a of PES and that's the day you have to make it ownerless and now you're going to see who else is on the boat now this is one of the sources that you know Rua is a Ley he says the this type of is going to go is going to the Ley and that was and that's for the poor either was a god stuck and gave money out to the poor the way that most understand maybe was poor and but but but he's being Zak for all other poor that may be but but this is fascinating and by the way continue so who's on the boat with him who's on the boat with him reu aarya so this is all great except for why are they on a boat I don't understand why are they on a boat they're traveling they're coming back from Rome most likely they had uh they had some kind of meeting that they had to have with the the leadership in Rome and now they're coming back you can plan you know when you're arriving when you're on a boat travel is not as simple as you think but what's more interesting is that is the timing of this is the timing and the group the timing and the group essentially if you trade off rubing gam for rby Tarone you have Ruby AAS group and I saw somebody claim that they get off the boat and that's why they all go into lud sorry that's why they all went to babra they get off the boat they all go to babra because they just a of PES that's where they know how far can how yeah that's why the children and the family that's why they that's why they're all there together by the way doesn't so what Leo so you have to sayam Leo was the was the nzi and he had a better uh better donkey I don't know what to say as I said I've seen people try to connect you know this is this will be our famous theory of conservation of boat travel and PES sers coming together but again the timing is also the timing is also really interesting because this is er of pesak and then they end up on PES so is this the same year what's the answer I don't know I don't know but whenever you can build a conspiracy theory I mean why not why miss a theory so therefore you realize that this mishna in in master sheni which unfortunately we never would have seen other than this is actually interesting just in terms of what it may or may not give us in terms of the background of our story yeah there is actually a uh whole literature of both stories one of the people who is completely intrigued by this is Professor Danny sperber won the Israel prize he uh he's written about the various boat stories he's written about nautical terms in the talet and things like this and uh if you want we can ask them to come in give us a guest talk and uh explain all these things but but either way what we see is is already questioning right the end of he goes I don't know where' you go what in Source number seven I'm saying he was already questioning what were they all doing here so one answer what are they doing here they just got off the boat they just got off the boat how far can you travel they couldn't all go to the very especially those who lived up north you couldn't get up North so they're all over here and spend and spend PES together re AAA again calls his wife and says listen I'm bringing some guest for uh put come off the plane right put some more put some more water in the soup that's it that's it that's it so as I said there there I don't remember the first time I saw somebody make that suggestion but as much as you can have this whole conspiracy that they're planning about cul rebellion and by the way once you continue with that you can say so why is ringham Leo not there because ringham Leo he's part of the establishment and therefore he's anti so and you can make anything up that you want to I don't know the validity of any of this including even that that's what they were possibly discussing by the way why not just say that what they were really discussing was what it's says and that's SE MIT and that they were talking they would there were rabbis who were performing the ritual of the Passover seder I mean you could say that I me get it's much more exciting to say other things and then to look for uh all kinds of other Intrigue but as I said there are those who try to take this and stick it together with the boat story and you know why not they arrived PES they're still on the boat it could be that before Shia they get off the boat and how far can they get they end up in uh they end up in B BR part of what did is he raised the problem in terms of one of the one of the attendees and that's rby Lesar reie Lesar prefers to be at home by the way I can throw on top of everything else wasn't rby Lear wasn't he put in which means what's he doing with everybody else anyway I mean I could ask other questions so you have to say that was before and so on and and again the other thing is raphone shows up over here and by the way maybe tone was on the boat also but but he wasn't as interesting because he wasn't a Ley and he wasn't an h and he wasn't whatever the other problem this this multiple problems one of the other problems is I mean aside from as he points out he focused on rbby Lesar who said no you should be home so if you should be home why you here what's our answer he just C off the boat good was he on the boat okay so let's let's let's then continue the other problem would be and this is much more famous and much more to the point and much more to the story and much more the continuation of it and that's alaria which means what was why why or how easy was it for naria to be at Rader now before you say anything else you know we do appreciate that in our world today if somebody has any Min hug him slightly different from us then we start going into like these major existential crisises and you know what in the world's going to be I'm not even going to go I'm not even going to go to things like kitney o or so on and so forth that if somebody may have some other you know you can go to your G or you can go to what people have different Customs so that that that's just sets us all completely by the way maybe Lesar was very smart and says stay home for the holidays don't don't don't get involved with other people but Les aarya and Reika have a different problem and that is really going to be seen in Source number nine and number nine starts off in the gar it's BR in a certain sense we're still there in the first Miss BR and it goes down to when do you sayma at night so let's start with an observation which is not going to be absolute midnight is not really a Jewish thing midnight is who who's midnight with a pumpkin and the the Cinderella Midnight's a Cinderella thing right it's much more prominent than Cinderella than it is in halaka now those of you who are clever and can work hard and can search and can find maybe you'll find but actually we have a whole song about things that that are midnight around midnight it's also is that Eric Clapton also midnight so we have so we had Eric Clapton over here people know Eric Clapton better than mission in myeni okay very good embra embrace it embrace it that that that midnight all by the way all those things in that's in there none of them are at midnight they're all in the night and we say oh look at midnight this is and then they're not necessar happened other than is something which is apparently connected to but I'm going to say it again it's not that nothing exists is just nowhere nearly as uh prominent as you may think it is and that's really the backdrop to understand this now what did this really just now say what it really said is that Midnight's not a thing for real and the various things that you may think that we can only do until midnight Midnight's there as a way of keeping you away from breaking the don't do it the last minute right we always do things don't do it the last minute so therefore kma at night you can really say till the morning Hal on P you can really say till the morning eating the Corban PES which may be connected to the Hal you could do till the morning all of these things are till as long as it's night these are laws of the night and you could do it from the beginning of the night to the end of the night so so again straight off the says no no there's an argument about this and there's two different opinions now keep in mind where we started and they're sitting at the same seder that that's part of what's interesting it says you should eat the meat on that night it says when he should eat the Corb P it says that God is going to strike them when does God strike them that just like the Striking of the firstborn which was called by was at midnight so too eating the cor and by the way that would make it somewhat unique among the Corban I said I'm not saying absolutely but somewhat unique but it said also the word when we rushed maybe it should even be the next day that all night you can eat it but not the next day you can eat it until the sun comes up the time that we left Egypt you burn this be Lesar by the way you burn in the morning so that means at sunet you would [Music] eat left would be burned everyone agrees the Jews were redeemed at night as it says like but when did they leave so now we just now made a distinction between and between the next day after the Corb P or the holiday of by the way that's really interesting because now we realize there's two different holidays why because there's two different events we don't know when p is over is it over at midnight is it over in the morning with learya it's at midnight and where be would and then right there is overlap obviously because when the sun see I'll tell you what part of the issue is just in case we're not being clear we all know the Jewish holidays begin at Shia they begin at nightfall and they end at nightfall but the bet mikash it's the other way around the night follows the day so the corbon is in Judaism we always say that first is the night and then the day but in the bet mdash it's first the day and then the night so what we have over here is two separate things we have the Corbin PES which is a ritual which is a corbon and therefore the first the day it's bth during the day and then it's eating at night on the other hand the holiday of is like all the other holidays it starts at night and then it continues out the other way around so then when is going to be the overlap the overlap between the p and is going to be that night which is both the night the time to eat the Corbin p and already the time of and then you have again this really interesting overlap between the two but we also do holidays and by the way just to make everything more complicated we also have leaving in the morning but we also have the seventh day the seventh day is also part of the seven day and there's also something significant that happens over there so hopefully we have everything lined up but now we realize that this discussion about shman until when you say shma at night and can you say it past or it could be you know said until the the dawn so what we learned is that we really say but larus I know that there is Midnight's a thing and therefore the Corban PES is only towards midnight so therefore as far as we're concerned this then will take us to another problem and that is how does Raba and R bazaria how are they having the say it together because it's not clear there's actually two other things which are probably interrelated to this is that one okay some of us will be under pressure you have to look when you have to eat the so some of us are actually a little bit more knowledgeable sorry we know yeah we do that as a or as maybe more than a but the Hala goes together the Hal is not separated and the H gets well actually the H's broken up we have a Hal which is said before the meal and after the meal so by the way before we eat the Corbin PES and after we e the Corbin PES the Corbin PES should have been done together with a which means if I have to eat the a in place of the Corbin P before I probably have to say h before as well and I probably have to finish everything before which is obviously or clearly for a lot of us going to be a challenge if you want I could tell the famous story about Rabbi lonstein who uh there was lots of talking during the Seder by the time they finished eating the matah before they started the meal he looks he goes oh we have to have the afik now and miss the whole meal to which his wife Tova right Tova salv right said to Aaron I was also raised in an orthodox home and and we we can eat we can have our meal right so as I said that's the whether my brother my brother may have been there for that s have to have to ask him but uh but yes why because ultimately we hold like Reb AA but nonetheless according toab aaria you should have finish the the well the a not the Corban P at that point but there's also and you should have said the Hal and there's also cup and have the four cups of wine and and essentially you should have finished the S there the mitz of SE is only if you follow the opinion that that whole night is part of P because p is connected to the or the are connected to the story and all these things are interrelated but if you're telling it ends at midnight then everything ends at midnight and by the way that's now more interesting are sitting there be now by the way you could right now say rear is a good guest raria he's a good guest Raba is the mara is the rabbi of B and even though he people also overstate this he was the Nai he wasn't necessarily the Nai that day that could be before he was the Nai he was after he was the Nasi one in four weeks he was the Nai those of you who know what I'm talking about that which by the way is all the same characters it's reing gets disposed Les maybe reaba we should put there no RAB yeshu is the one who gets insulted and that's and that's I'm say it's all the same people involved and maybe Reay was maybe he wasn't the Nasi at that point nonetheless that he would say okay let me respect rubika and by the way got go a step further and let's say we talk about leaving Egypt after K it's B Torah like okay so I'm just saying is that the fact that reliz desire is there is not necessarily going to be as strong as of a question as some people try to make it okay this is not his custom so hopefully you know what maybe he snu off on the side ate his a before and then was a very good guest afterwards I I know it's not Jewish tradition to be a good guest but maybe he was a very good gu he was wise Beyond his years if you if if you will by the way the Yi says that his hair turns white is it his beard the Yi says his hair turned white as opposed that his that his beard turns white and also says I believe that he was 16 not that he was 18 and whatever let us continue so all of this we took out of source number nine Source number 10 takes us to the end of again behold if you have to see yourself if we just have to see ourselves if we left by the way the ROM adds we have to see ourselves as if we were slaves and as if we left it's not just the leaving also the servitude we should see ourselves I don't know if is this clear in the gar until when meaning how far do you have to say in the so I reserve the right to return to this at some later date to explain what their argument is and then you seal this by saying theone now we've moved over to one of our other members of this meal who has redeemed us and redeemed our forefathers which by the way sounds to a certain extent perfect that's that's what it said that we have to see ourselves if we left so therefore God redeemed us we have to sing and we say the BR that God redeemed us because we just experienced Redemption and we say that God redeemed our forefathers so everything is perfect right rabar makes perfect sense right right something Raba is not just talking about the present Raba is talking about the future and and that and that becomes very interesting because because now I can actually begin to wonder something that R when talks about celebrating leaving Egypt he's talking about not just that that moment that the firstborn was struck he's already moving towards the the future towards the morning and and and so on and over here as well where raron on the one hand you can say wow look how much he's extending himself by saying it's not we see ourselves if we left and it's not just the past it's the present as well and RI no it's not just the present it's also the future and and this may be the key to at least understanding part of what's going on over here the famous story and I'm not going to go through the whole thing which is which is the gar at the end of makot source number 11 it's the gamar in makot this is the famous story where of course it's r g andari and reua and raka right all of the people also involved in that other story they go up and they see the destroyed Jerusalem and not going to again you we all know the story and we get to the end of the sta is saying well till that prophecy came true I didn't know this prophecy so but what actually is he saying and what is the prophecy the prophecy is that Jerusalem will be in Ruins and Jerusalem would be rebuilt so I I want to skip to the very end which is right right on page three right the end of source 11 when it says what what's prophecy the right next time you know you see elderly people walking around the streets in Jerusalem that is the right we can do this in this classroom even sorry the that that you this is a fulfillment of a prophecy that's us that's us children and children playing and children play that's us right children playing in the streets so Reika says right now it's interesting because raka here doesn't talk about the future but he talks about the Redemption from the future taking place in the present by the way the in his commentary to the he says why were they all with riaa because riaa is an optimist it's good to be with people with good energy everyone else oh the situation is so bad and what's going to be and and so on and so forth and RI was there you know he says okay I see the future Redemption but but but doesn't see as the future I mean that's the whole point I mean that that's the whole point when you go back and really think about the argument ofar and you really think the argument of Rea and reu Taron over here they they're standing in the present and they're standing in the present is off in the future but he thinks the future is the present and that's really the gift that's really the gift of of optimism is being able to and that's feeling the future Redemption and that's that really in a sense is remarkable but I I want to fill this in and and say a couple more things by the way just notice you know you said before we before we started you never heard of this Rabbi this Rabbi myON so I told you that he learned with the and and the Mal adopted him so let's look at the Mal just this is just Aesthetics he writes on the in that was the whole thing quote in the gar that that we we taken at night but we really weren't taken at night we left in the morning so what is what is and so on so he says there was a moment the power says you can leave that itself is Redemptive they didn't leave until the morning the beginning of the Redemption is at night and the p is there to commemorate the start of the and the mat is about the rest of the Redemption mat sha so the sday holiday is till the completion it is the they're all about Redemption so when is the Redemption but he also he actually uses an interesting term over here and the term is the beginning of the Redemption the he Hebrew that he uses is the we'll come to the Aramaic for that in a moment but first let me just point something out that you already know but then you're going to see something which the gamarra does with it and then it will fit into something else that you already know but you won't realize that's what the Garra was doing okay Source 13 13 is simply I took the first eight of them Shon which are really 19 and I just put numbers by them number one five which is that what we have to focus on 14 he says that there's a tradition that the Jews are going to be redeemed in the seventh year therefore the was put at the seventh so again you did not realize that that those two Traditions come together that when you had 18 or 19 to put how do you know which sequence you put them in so there is a tradition that the seventh sabatical year in the cycle that's when Redemption takes place that's why it's the that's why it's the seventh but there's another opinion in the sixth year there's going to be noise again that requires interpretation but in the seventh there will be Wars and then will come so the gor answers and this is the only time in all of that this phrase is used he sorry that war is also the beginning of the Redemption which means the only time that it talks in the gar about this concept called is here and what is the context of saying that war is the beginning of the Redemption what's the context is the go go Isel where do he talk about Redemption now if you look at Rashi in rash on the words in the sevene cycle it's not the complete from from Exile there are there are stages to GAA and now what he's really doing is he's telling you look at some of the other BR in theid right you have right which means we have a lot of things we need to do we have to gather the Exiles and we have to build Jerusalem and then we have to have the the the remnant from the family of David Mia come and therefore that's how they picked number seven because of this Rabin tradition so I'm going to say this is really interesting because we see there stages now this this point that maybe you noticed and I deliberately brought this was that war is the beginning of redemption is because war war is an upheaval an upheaval things which kind of moving slowly suddenly get turned over picked up thrown to the ground and shattered and then you start completely a new that it's an upheaval and that that's really what says now the in Source 16 says going back to our attention about is is it at night or is in the morning go he mean the malum already did this even though the Mal's after he's after the gr but this idea to attach the phrase by the night or he like yeah that's the beginning but there are stages to Redemption it's really interesting because part of what I was pointing at along the way also idea of with the first born the first born is because the that commemorates about what happened at midnight that that and that's P which is really what he's focusing on there's p and then there's p is when we're redeemed we're redeemed and that's why mitz of redemption follows it on the other hand is what takes place the next day by the way once it takes place the next day when do we SE celebrate the next day we start to celebrate the next day the night before which means when is PES sorry I have to change that when is is a sday holiday when start like all of our holidays which already starts in the evening because of an event that happened during the day because of the way we celebrate holidays non B mikdash holidays so therefore we get to this wonderful time that the PES starts when you can bring the Corbin PES and then you can eat the Corbin PES like all other kudim at night you can eat the Kum at night and then until when you can eat it well the reality is until the morning but barari says no no till midnight because midnight is when all the drama takes place but as far as rib is concerned is that rib is already looking and seeing and feeling in the into the future and therefore Rea doesn't freeze frame it on that particular moment and as I said we see something therefore interesting with with raka I'm going to end with um with I'm going to say one or two we have time we have nothing else to go we're good so let's let's continue then a little more the the TOA is interesting because it talks about when you say shma at night and now this will fit as well at night you have sorry during the day not night is talking about say during the day and it says that you should mention and at the end of the line that we need to mention both of these things the who is a commentary on the to you see he lived 1718 to 1790 he writes again the same concept that they're saying is that leaving Egypt is one of redemp is one of stages of redemption I'm saying that's what we say we say it every day in the Shona estray three times a day but we never pay attention to it right I don't know how many as Hal it what is Al is doing all the way over there and we don't find the you know the other parts of g no there's stages to Gula there are stages that take place and the Jews already were the night before and then it continues um the gr because there stages it's it's because there stages and part of it you're right part of all this is going to be a question of language what do we mean by Redemption what do we mean by G that's going to that's actually going to be a part of the problem and and good good I'm glad you I'm glad you asked this and may maybe we could now say this a little differently maybe if l in aaria who's saying no it's only till midnight is looking at the hand of God punishing the Egyptians or he's looking at it until we can finish eating the Corbin pesak that would be really interesting when to eat the Corbin pesak until midnight which means he's focusing on a on a religious development and Rika is talking about actually leaving Egypt right in the morning and maybe Rel say no that's not religious that's National maybe may maybe that's that's political it's Na by the way it's the hand of God in both cases it's the hand of but but are we focusing when we talk about one second are we focusing on the religious aspect that we brought the Corbin PES are we focusing on that we leave Egypt so which is the redemp is it is it is it something which is more is it something which is more religious something which is more National and I can see somebody say no no no we're religious Jews and we look at the Corbin p and that that's what we're focusing on and Rea and that's not all that surprising then is going to say no it's until we actually leave you know the religion is great but this there's there's another part of uh of all of this but give give me a couple seconds there's a little more here so one is it's interesting in s 17 and 18 we talk about the we talk about the should be part of what we say when we say themma it's interesting that theid sees this as far as he's calling it the right the completion of the G G isamu and that again is interesting because now we have the whole 7-Day holiday you know that we're able to see this also may be connected in a completely different way to the to the villon's comment that has to do with por the one you know the the Difficult about porm says and what does it mean you have to drink so much you don't know the difference how do you drink so much people have tried it's a little hard to get to that amount of drinking so the the V the Von says what is that mean so that's in Source 19 this commentary to that you drink and you analyze a philosophical question what is the main part of this of being saved on purm is it that the wicked finally pay their due and are punished or is it that the righteous are going to be rewarded which means we have two sides of the same philosophical problem and that is sadico ver vlo so when it comes to purm he he sees this as you drink and contemplate which is the greatness of purm that hon got his due or that morai got rewarded and and that's really interesting cuz now I go I could take that back and say is it that the Egyptians now suffer or is that we are that we leave which is the main thing that we're celebrating on por on PES is it is it the Mak is it that midnight is it that they're being punished or is it that we are leaving and that we are being rewarded so again I'm reading this Von's question and I again I'm hearing something else with it last thing I want to discuss today you see I have a whole page on it but we'll uh we'll touch it a little bit and Source number 20 is the famous in Source 21 the says with that fourth cup which means the four cups divide the Seder into different parts so one of the parts of the Seder is the Hal and says here that's the fourth cup right the and then forget whatever comes afterwards rash 22 writes no the right text is by that's our text but rash is telling us this is the right text so what do you now know that there's another text if you look at the Riff in Source 23 he says into the fifth Cup right so so this is the start of something which is really really interesting that there in s 24 the is going to tell us based upon the Bal that actually raron argued with the mishna because the mishna said that even a poor person you give them four cups of wine Ruby tyin said no no you give them five cups of wine which means as much as we like everything to line up in fourest or be t no there's five but this is what Rashi is saying no the right text is that there's four and now we see that the Riff is saying by the way it may really come down to the difference between ashaz and sard it may come down to Sur and padita it may come down to again just two different schools of thought and then we're going to end up with some people saying four some people saying five and some people having a nice compromise so for example in the ramom in 25 will'll have the compromise no you pour the four pour the fifth one but you don't drink it and that's the and that and that's what the rambam that's what the r says in Source 25 so you realize that that's really close to said which it's not the same kind of thing the rivid on the other hand that's in source 26 the rivid which is not on the rivid on the rambam the r it's same rivid there were three different rivid same rivid but he writes this in different places and here he saysed because in that Source number 20 the four was the fifth one and vti means to come to the land so it's interesting now that wearone who had talked about the present tense the G in the present tense in the past now we find that raron has a fifth cup so now the question is where does that fifth Cup come from now the rivid by the way himself in Source 27 has a long explanation for where it's from I'm not going to look that I'm going to prefer to look at the terima in Source 28 terima is the son of the who we had cited earlier and he writes why don't we have a fifth cup whether he knew about the I don't know what to say what he knew he didn't know you can't say that entering Israel is not part of the I mean is really about that's what it sounds like so it's not all about leaving Egypt because now we are in Exile and the land of Israel is controlled by strangers how can we possibly have a fifth cup and celebrate maybe that's why that we're hoping that will come and one day that the land will be populated and the people of of Israel will come back to life what what what an unbelievable statement over here so let me say two things and and I'm finished one is some say that's why it's called coio because there m is there four or five ELO is going to come and tell us which one is right so that's what that's what some people theorize that's why it's called on the other hand what he's saying over here is that the fifth cup and he's not talking about again there was an argument maybe maybe maybe we can say it like this that all these rabbis had a Seder together with rabaka and they're nice and they're polite why because uh because they're nice rabbis and they're polite and they respect to one another and they have different customs and some a kitney out and some e brux and some don't although hard to believe that no one a k Brooks then but anyway everybody is very well behaved and reaka is an optimist and Rea is sitting there maybe in his K maybe not with his face shining and talking about the future Redemption as if it's right now in the present and maybe even though RAB tarun starts the the S they only thinking that you talk about the present tense and that itself is an avod to see yourself as if you're freed but rikas speaks about the future as if it's the present so maybe he convinces rby Taran that we need to have a fifth cup because maybe we really can't celebrate the future but for us who live in Israel and the land has come back to life and all these negative things that he said why we don't have the fifth cup maybe maybe it is worthwhile for us not just to pour a fifth cup but also to drink it as well and to C and to and to se and you can have grape juice for the fifth cup also and to and to and to and to celebrate and to celebrate all the things that that the tur says that we're missing and all the things that it sounds now again those two Traditions some couldn't even believe there would be T possibly go there there's a fifth cup about veti and sitting in Exile how can you talk about heti but maybe when we're no longer sitting in Exile maybe we can absolutely celebrate a v we've seen that Redemption goes in we we've veral PES is celebrated in different ways and we see that there are stages to Redemption and we see that war is an upheaval and war is a part of redemption and every single day we we talk about go Isel in the seventh BR because of that upheaval because that's the beginning of the process and we know the other stages and we don't necessarily always know what's going to be the pr the proper sequence well we do realize that a lot of those BR that we've been saying for Generations a lot of those blessings have come to fruition and now we realize that we're in the midst of our upheaval and we hope that very quickly and very peacefully and without having to pay any more corba note that we get to this uh final stage and that God uh will allow all of us to uh to celebrate this completion of this Redemption that we started to celebrate all those years ago