Rubashkin Case with Gary Apfel, an attorney who saw G-d's Hand & Sholom's integrity- Inside info

welcome to meaningful interviews with Rabbi hayam dolphin I have here today uh Mr Gary of fell a very prominent law firm in Los Angeles thank you I became aware of um of your work and yourself through the famous robust in case of Martha rabastian who happens to be a childhood friend of mine you're actually talking to me in Borough Park I live in park park and so Martin and I grew up together in the same school and Rabbi what was known at the time as Rabbi Simpson full and I have wonderful memories about our childhood together so um this uh interview feels even more intimate because of the uh geographical location is it a as it applies to uh to Charlotte but in addition to that I just dare you to work um volunteer work or whatever for um the olive Institute uh rather lipster I believe is the head of IT who I know as well so um I wanted to just talk a little bit about that and also um to ask you about your uh briefly about your background what type of lawyer you are and just a little bit about yourself where you come from whatever you'd like to share with our listeners so why don't uh you take over now thank you all right sure thank you well I grew up in New York as well I grew up on the upper west side of Manhattan but spent a fair amount of time in Borough Park because my family is capitanist or capitans of hasidim and right down the block from Sean Martha's parents home is the kitchen space medrish yes and in fact Sean Michael told me that that the first Shabbos that he was out we had an understanding when he was still in a place called prison that that first Shabbos we would dive in one dominating and compension it's the one dobbing in Lubavitch and so Friday night we dive in in in capitulates and he sat in a certain place he said you know why I'm sitting here I said no he said because when I was a young boy I was learning in the stone Yeshiva but my father took my brother yesing me out every day when it was time for the secular studies and we had him a lot of it and we used to sit here in the capituency base Madras and that's where we had the Milan so I'm sitting back in my seat that I sat as a talmud Ah that's nice I don't I didn't know that thank you for that go ahead yeah anyway I so I grew up in the Upper West Side of Manhattan and I went to school in New York I went to Columbia law school and I practiced corporate law emerges and Acquisitions and bankruptcy restructuring I led the 500 lawyer team that restructured General Motors about 15 years ago and um was a corporate lawyer and then 10 years ago because of swsky from the olive Institute yes so T called me asking me if I could help pay someone's rent and so I said I agreed and I went over to his home to to give him the check and I saw he was looking through some emails and said raboshkin I said oh my gosh do you have anything to do with the robotkin case this was in 2013 so it was about four four years already after he was already in incarcerated and he told me that he did I said you know I I don't know this man but I've been suffering for him from the day he was arrested and I'd love to help so Steve who is an amazing networker knew that the chairman of my firm he didn't know he's also a good friend of mine is Louis free the former FBI director and she said we've been trying to get his support for this egregious misconduct here and Injustice and I was meeting with Louis the following week so I presented to Louis the situation and Louis was amazing judge free was just absolutely amazing in terms of his support and the things he did to help to make sure that Sheldon robotkin's Injustice was corrected and but then I said see I want to do more than that it's not enough just to introduce you to somebody and so to make the long story short I was able to persuade my firm to allow me to bring the case in pro bono and we worked with a wonderful criminal lawyer in Iowa named Steve Loker who was our boots on the ground and the expert in criminal law because I am a corporate lawyer right and Barack Hashem the rest is as they say is history right so tell me um what were your feelings you know let me let me share with you a feeling that I you know that I had and I saw it in the in the papers and just so I'm asking you you know if if I was right or wrong the timing of some case an issue and the accusations that he was accused of was kind of the wrong timing because of our president and culture at the time and it was um it was kind of they were looking for a uh as we say in Hebrew carbon a sacrifice uh is is that true or not you know I I the president at the time he was arrested and indicted was George Bush you know it was uh it was after he was he was he was ultimately convicted under the Obama administration's right in prison but it was Bush it was under the Bush Administration that he was arrested listen the cottage particle controls the timing of everything I I also believe he was a carbon I believed at the time he was a carbon which is why I felt uh an obligation to see if to help him any way I could because as I said to him the very first time that I met him in prison we had only had a couple of phone calls before then and I said to him you know I am here I said I'm here because you're sitting here for all of us and that was my feeling and it still is my feeling but you know the cutter Sparkle runs the world and he had his husband is as to why this was the right time and this was the right person and this was the right circumstances frustrated um was there any uh like physical abuse or did they use uh you know they hit him or I mean what was there no no in fact it was interesting because they recognized that he was not the average inmate and um they recognized that he wasn't he wasn't the average inmate that he was really something special and different but no the Infinity Federal prisons they don't hit people the guards you know they don't do that right no because my experience with the Boston case and I've had now several quite a few other cases that I've been helping is that the the federal prison officials uh they they treat people properly in the prisons okay the re the reason I asked my questions because uh I believe you know has spoken publicly that you know there were times with this yamaka and sitza you know different things that uh I don't forget that that's a different issue that's not physical abuse I I I I I think that was you know that was simply because they were not used to someone who was as early as the shallow Martha especially in Iowa when he was in Otisville there was those issues weren't issues but back in Iowa where you know there are more cows than there are Jews in the state of Iowa right uh they just didn't know how to deal with with someone like Sean Martin I'll tell you a story that the mukacherebusliga told us when when Shawn Martha came out we went visited several rabbits including the moon concert the mooncatcher told us that he had been he had gone to Iowa right after Sean Marco was arrested to speak to the prosecutor the mooncatcher is a great man and I mean I his his experience in this area is unparalleled and his wisdom both his atsumi and of course the Yuka said he has from his parents and zeitus Etc right is unparalleled and he said he met with the prosecutor and he said to the prosecutor he said you know I've met with a lot of prosecutors in a lot of cases but you seem really angry you know are you ain't he says yes I am angry he says why are you angry he says because he's arrogant so the Reba sent him to the prosecutor he's arrogant you know I've known this man I know other people that know him I've never heard anyone suggest that he's arrogant so the writer said that the prosecutor told him he says you know when when we brought him in when he was arrested we brought him in and we had to do a physical examination and he had to take off he had remove his clothing and when it was uh the physical exam was finished we talked with go your clothes are there in the corner go and and and and and and get dressed and he refused to because he wasn't wearing yamaka and he wasn't wearing his stitches he didn't want to walk Dallas without his Yama consensus so he told them you know you have to bring me these things so that I otherwise he's arrogant so the mukha Trevor said he said he pulled he pulled out his own toddlers cut then he said you mean this is what he this is what he was saying you had to bring to him and then he explained to him that was just he just couldn't walk the Dollarama so Martha's a very eloquent person but they did they were not used to that and they misinterpreted you know that's an example of how they misinterpreted what he was doing right you do you think that uh at the end of the day after the sofiasco and um has this um taught the federal system and and and and the individuals you know at leadership level um had a deal with um from Jewish inmates of the future we shouldn't be there but you know I must tell you we work very closely the elephants too worked very closely with the Federal Bureau of Prisons we have a wonderful relationship with them it welcomes our involvement in making sure that from inmates Jewish inmates get whatever religious needs they have um so and I don't think the robotkin case was really the issue I think it's really the attitude of the leadership of the Federal Bureau of Prisons I mean I've been at meetings where they have a planning session six months in advance for Rosh Hashanah to be in Washington DC and the headquarters of the federal bureau prisons with representatives of olive where they plan out in each prison who's going to go there who's about to blow chauffeur when they're going to be able to do it so I I think that that I must say that the the my experience the federal bureau prisons has really been very uh sensitive to and and concerned about and addresses the religious needs of of federal inmates so why why in in saying in that's starting that's a that's terminology used why in in you know from our perspective what why did this take eight years you know you know every former living attorney general at the time prior to the Obama Administration said that this was the most egregious case of prosecutorial misconduct and Injustice that they saw having said that it's not the only one and unfortunately there are other cases out there they're outliers they're a tiny tiny fraction of the cases that go through our system but yes people are people and in fact as Larry Thompson the former deputy Attorney General of the United States said when we were celebrating shalom's release Sean markle's release he said you know there was some really great lawyering here but at the end of the day this was a miracle once someone has been convicted the the the the likelihood of being able to do something to reverse that judgment either through a reversal of the conviction or through a pardon or a clemency is it's a it's a miracle it's a miracle it's Mommy and that's just the way the system works and you see here's the big question um if if you're allowed to share it with us um is uh is President Trump get any credit to his release absolutely president Trump he you know obviously he signed the the commutation petition so obviously he gets credit but what's what's what's remarkable about it was if you look at the pattern of commutations and pardons there are very few that are done before the end of the term of a president and normally when they do them before the end of the term there's some political reason Obama had the the drug dealers and the drug people on drugs in Biden now also had something with with so there's always a political aspect to it and there was no political benefit to president Trump in community Sean Martha's sentence there was no no you know it's not like you know the the Jewish vote is going to make the difference in an election it might make a difference in New York but it's not going to make a difference in the national election like we're an important constituency the Orthodox Jewish community so it was there's he deserves a lot of credit and to my knowledge he did it because he just felt it was the right thing to do he was he was briefed by among others Alan dershowitz who explained to him about the Injustice and he just said this is wrong and we have to correct this so so in American law does a president kind of have power over the the the uh federal bureau well first of all the president is the head of the of the executive branch of the government which the Department of Justice the Federal Bureau of Investigation the bureau prisons they all are under his jurisdiction but more importantly the Constitution gives the president the power of clemency the framers of the Constitution recognized that you could have situations like the situation that we we had here where the system didn't work we're unfortunately the system purely within the judicial system it didn't work and therefore the framers gave the president the ultimate ability to correct those types of situations which shows that the system ultimately did work because you know when when Sean Marshall got out he had 19 more years to go on his sentence so yes it's terrible that he sat for eight years it's it's an avla that he sat for eight years but he had 19 more years to go and barf Hashem he's spending those years at home with his family and just helping Claudia stro as you know does he uh these you know is is he is he and others like him are they like really watched carefully and and you know uh how does that work we had after he was released from prison like I think just about every inmate he had a period of probation and he wasn't watched but he had to report in the people on probation have to report in and depending upon the probation officer sometimes it's more sometimes it's less but I will tell you what's interesting is Sean Martha's case he had a five-year probation after 18 months the probation office on its own motion made a motion to the court to end the probation because they felt it wasn't necessary he got a letter one day in the mail he got a letter one day in the mail your probation has been terminated you know sitting and watching and hearing and observing you know a friend of mine same age you know um this this is historic and what's your feeling what will this leave For Eternity for the Jewish people so I'll tell you I agree with you I also think this is historic and I think it's historic for two reasons I I I think it's historic because of the circumstances under which he was convicted and the outrageous nature of the sentence 27-year sentence for a financial crime by a first-time non-violent Defender were the only so-called victim was the bank by the way I personally believe that Sean Martha was innocent I don't think he was guilty of the crime for which he was convicted but he's not the first person in this country who has gone to jail having not committed a crime but haven't been convicted anyway but I but I think the reason it's historic is that's the foundation but it's the manner in which he dealt with this terrible avla that really makes it historic and I have to tell you you know him from before I don't know if you've seen him since but the way he was before and the way he is now is exactly the way he was in prison and I think that's a stark I mean he he he he demonstrated to all of us what it means to have truly talking in the cut of sparkly and I think that's that to me is the reason it's so historic I used to go to visit him I was I remember there's an attorney log book in the prison so when you go into the prison as an attorney you sign a special book and I was the most frequent visitor even though to any client even though I was flying cross country to see him and every time I went I felt oh I'm going to try to give him some physical while I'm there and each time he gave me I'll tell you what started to me in addition to you know the facts on the ground you understand I'm a writer I'm a story and and I'm a citizen and khabab in particular and I know his family you know his father and say the the relatives you know this is this is real real you probably know that this is what they call it you know they come from the the root of you know and um there's so much in in Torah in general in particular in a hypothesis even more particularly about the the idea of the talking on the ground and you know for for most people it's it's lip service because unless you're tested you don't know how the coin is gonna fall which way you don't know what's going to be you're so much had demonstrated that what it says in the books and what we heard about his ancestors and labavage ancestors in Russia who who fought communism astounded and they actually many died and those that survived they did it through the seriousness never self-sacrifice he embodied that experience in America and that is phenomenal and I don't think it was done ever before in this particular way in other words an emissary who goes out of Timbuktu and doesn't have the the orange juice and and kosher bagels and the restaurants the pizza stores and the wife doesn't have the mic for right there and all that and self-sacrifice but here we're talking about a a different type of self-sacrifice one that you know like you said they didn't hit him there was no capital punishment and all that but nevertheless you know it was beer then it's from kite and his religiousness and is able to keep that in in that situation uh that's that's very real so to me this is it proves this one it proves that what it says in the books and the stories that you hear and that you know the capital setup I grew up with and and and and I would ever grew up with and and the dalen grew up with and described grew up with and the modern Orthodox rabbis grew up with it's all true to Emma's and Aid can do it and I think that's something that can give his hook to the reality of bronkite that's what I'm trying to say you know we're living at a time and I have to tell you Gary where they're you know they're people that are making right turns of left turns back turns up turns there's a lot of upheaval in the Orthodox Community they're from community and I'm sure you know you know about it and maybe you're even involved with that segment of our population in the best of homes in the all homes it doesn't serve between the hustled and the lit fog it's everyone right I don't want to say the last word of the policy there isn't a house where there isn't you know a carbon should be saying yeah and what Sherlock said demonstrated is that look here I'm in this situation and not only am I am I but I'm keeping the standards that I had being deceiver in the community it works I think this will will will impact people in the future that when they're if they were to think about it you know Yiddish kite and fruit guide has value what do you say about that no I I agree with everything that you just said what what what has amazed me and continues to amaze me is that when you discuss it with him it's so push it it's it's so it's so simple it's so obvious I mean he explains it so simply you know it's the story about the airplane remind me I don't so I'll tell you I've heard the story several times but the nicest time I heard it is we were in your shalim together my wife and I would have to be your slime and the robots were there at the same time and we'd eaten together the suit of Friday night and we were walking them halfway back to where they were staying and a rough comes over to them he says I'm a rough of Manchester I'm here with my base Yakov class Rabbi raboshkin could you speak to the girls we were on some place with a little park there I guess and the girls sat down on the sidewalk and he tells them the story and he says you know when when when I moved to Postville to run the plant so my family was living in was it Minnesota St Paul I think they were living initially before there was he built a shul and everything right and I would have to go back to Saint Paul to be back there for Shabbos and it was always difficult time wise it was like a three and a half hour drive at one time I noticed it was a farm a few miles away from the our facility and the guy had an old single propeller airplane so I went to this farmer and I asked him whether I could pay him and he would fly me each week and he did he says I sat next to him in the seat next to the pilot and Sean Martin among other things he is the most inquisitive amazing mind team he always wants to understand everything and there are all these dials and you know on the yeah so he's asking what's this what's this one of the dials is it's a round circle and inside it's got a line in the middle and there's like a little model airplane and when the plane turns left the plane and the dial turns left and when the right turns right so I said to this man I said to the pilot I said well what's that for he says well it's to know which way I'm going he says why do you need to see it on the dial you can just look outside the window you see which way you're going he says yes that's true in good weather but if you go into a cloud the plate could get turned upside down and you wouldn't realize that you're going upside down and you'll think that you're lifting the plane when in fact you're taking it down into the ground where you could crash and this model shows you the clarity of which way you're going he says I got into prison and it was the same thing I was in a cloud it was in a different place it was complete confusion I also had my model of the airplane I had the shulhanara tells me what to do and that was my model to know whether I was turning left I was turning right which way to go so that I wouldn't crash and that's and and Cafe that's that's how it was that's a great great story yeah very good but and he makes it so simple he made it's when he says it it's like it's obvious right of course not everybody is shown by the robotkin now let me ask you uh you said you you worked for the Olive um how has that progressed I remember the hour you know I don't know 30 years ago still you know the lip skirt how is that the program to now have you mentioned you know the inroads uh you made what if the prison system not me not me you take credit for it the organization yeah I mean it's under the leadership of Rabbi lipsker Robert Sean bear lipsker is always it's amazing what this man has done no yeah I think so yes but it's amazing what he has done this organization that he has built and the number of Eden that he has helped and not just in the United States frankly but all over the world and uh I work very closely with Rabbi sibiarski who was the head of advocacy constitutional advocacy and Olive has several branches one branches helps people in the military another branch make sure that the religious needs are being met of Eden in prison and all over the world by the way not just in in in I mean there's a case recently where they got they were able to get kosher food to eat in the prison in Taiwan and it just it's amazing and the third and the third branch is advocacy wherein the appropriate cases Olive will try to assist someone who's in the in the legal you know and and gotten involved in the criminal justice system situations like Sean Martha's situation that was advocacy to get computations to to to to work with prosecutors to get and bark Hashem there have been some recent some very nice successes from people that got into trouble that never you know they were desperate they didn't know what they were doing an unfortunate America that's no excuse and one has to be really careful because there is a Target on our back especially eating with beards and you know there's a Target on our back and if you get in front of a jury it's not going to be a jury of your peers and so you have to be exceptionally careful today but olive has been very successful with our Hashem in all those areas I remember the rabbit spoke about this publicly the idea you know the prison we don't find such a you know a way of uh punishment to the terror those are the secrets that I remember from the 1980s you know has there been a dent made in the in that thinking um or it's still the same that's interesting there is there is a a a movement in the United States right now to try to make more humane the prison system and Olive is one of the leaders at the Forefront the respect that Olive has in the non-jewish world in the judicial system in the Department of Justice in the White House in Congress is it's it's amazing I walk into meetings and with Robert biarski and you know weaselabavichu the shirt is out the senses are flying first thing he asked somebody are you Jewish let's wrap some filling I mean but the respect that he has the respective Rabbi lipsker has is even you know Allah and and and there have been some inroads yeah they've been there have been some inroads and there are there are efforts that are going on right now there are things going on right now that trying to make things more Humane trying to adopt some of the practices that have been adopted successfully in other countries and and bring them here to the United States mm-hmm the um we were meeting with some senior former judges and what somebody said once you know there's two reasons that we put people in prison we put people in prison because we're afraid of them murderers sexual predators Etc and we're also we put in prison people because we're angry with what they did and for the latter case we need to really rethink whether putting someone in prison because we're angry with what they did is really the right the right thing to do right and and you're saying that there are some inroads being made yeah yeah you know I don't know if anyone told you this could told you this but you know I saw it on different videos where they read them he would go by the river and the rep would give him extra dollar for hours now you know he he's the rabbi of the show which is a major shoe in the United States and in the world I mean it's right there's not even a question his shoe is sure right the shoe is up there it's it said it's my mission again it's not just a local Shoal in Surfside and then you know yeah it is a as we say in in in Hebrew it's a sticker it's so I'll give you an example of an inroad sorry but just to go back yeah okay so one of the inroads that Olive has been at the Forefront this alternative sentencing that instead of someone being sentenced to prison to be sentenced to some alternative form of punishment right and about two and a half years ago shortly before the covet hit um Olive hosted a second there was one two years before that but a second Summit at Columbia Law School I mean that just shows you the respect that Olive has at Columbia Law School which is one of the four of five most prestigious law schools in the country and I dare say in the whole world co-sponsored The Summit and there were judges and prosecutors who spoke and and congressmen who came and spoke and there were about 300 prosecutors and judges from all over the country in fact the Federal Judicial Center actually paid the expenses of 30 federal judges to attend the olive Summit and to explore alternatives to sentencing as opposed to putting people in prison home and there are programs now there are diversion programs across the country where instead of sending someone to prison depending on the crime they put him in his diversion program where if they meet the standards of the program complete the program and stay clean they don't go to jail wow when you ask are there inroads the answer is yes and um Olive is planning another Summit I think next year another one of these Summits to get through to the judges and the prosecutors that you don't have to lock up every single person that's committed a crime in this country well thank you for that that's exactly what I was I was getting at and I'm glad you reminded yourself um because that that address is what I remember the rep is speaking about so um I appreciate that so going back to the story that is really the inspiration behind everything that Olive does sorry the Reva is the inspiration behind everything that Olive does I mean or by lip skirts vrsky the others everything they do they always quote the rebel yes clearly the vision that the Reba had I don't have to tell you you're a laborator but the vision that the Reba had was extraordinary it was I think maybe unique in in the history of the world not maybe it was it was to be and I'm not saying that as a the history of the world to know you know but certainly in my experience no one had the vision and the breadth and the depth of vision that the river had and so many different things right we were talking about one small aspect of the things that the river did right and his ceaseless and it's igress and and and and this and the you know there was just akiness right look at this look from all over the world it was just so that's what I'm saying what I was saying before is that hearing this has this wonderful Big Show and everything right and the replicaiah doesn't give them an extra dollar for the shoe he gives them yeah it was almost every time that he came by the river you know the river invited once there was a Shabbos apparently where there were like 20 or 30 people who were on furlough from prison you know about that uh remind me I know something I don't think they dressed in normal clothing and he had them spread out all over so they shouldn't just be yeah yeah I think I was at that fabric I think I was at that for bringing you and he the rather made a very good point then that they're human beings and they're no different than anybody else right right right right well we're uh we're getting close to the time up so just another one or two things um what's your uh involvement as far as jewishly in in the community would you like to share something of your work I I I thought besides the legal the you know the pro bono help I try to help people who have my my father's the Quran of the Brotherhood taught me that said that is really the foundation of the world and my father was said and I was very close with the fried pigeon cerebral and so I just tried to to to to let them know that all the characters they put into me hopefully I got the message and if I can help aid who's in trouble then that's that's what we're here for right so your father was a survivor my father was a Survivor but he got out before the war he was in Vienna Vienna and he came from yeah my my my desires my elderside his family they were sons of hasidimes but then in the world between World War one right after World War One a lot of Originals moved to Vienna was already living there and he found the Sansa close and being my elders either but then Maize and my father became very closely to pigeons the pigeons forever moved to Vienna and that's how we became original Casino um the picture is and again you grew up in Bart work no I grew up in Manhattan but spent a lot of time on 55th Street 14 15 55th Street anyway so uh yes it's it's nice talking to uh someone who you know spent time right here in Borough Park uh you know that the borough what years were you here in the 60s I saw more than 70s is it both both yeah Mitzvah in 1965 was in the competency base Majors [Music] yeah he was my Sonic and he put tilling on me he like wrapped my till into the day my bar mitza that's wonderful well you know Borough Park it's now 50 years later or so whatever it's very different yeah yeah it's uh and you live in L.A right I live in Los Angeles yeah which area and Pico um Fairfax the Hancock Park very nice okay well because I should call you for all the good work that you do on behalf of cloud you throw thank you David will repay you and repay you the flying with the Shia they have leadership your children and grandchildren with good health and only only continue helping Claudia's role and sharing uh wonderful messages and uh you know be ready because in Borough Park during the uh nine days they bring in lawyers to speak about uh yasirus and Etc so we once had Ben brafman here so um I'm sure they're gonna have to be calling on you now Ben's a good friend of mine he's a very special person speaking of someone who does a lot of fasting Ben brafman is a very special person he's one of the best maybe the best white collar criminal lawyer a federal judge once told me that a friend of mine we were Partners in a law firm before became the judge and we were still friends he said you know I have all the top white collar lawyers appearing in front of me in my opinion the best is Ben brafman wow but he also does tremendous I said so he's both yeah you know that he he uh I think he grew up in the building that's the 7-7 which Bobby Jones today right and he spoke about it I think that one of the news summary sometimes yeah anyway baby says the help that we should only have SIM cards yes we should live to see Michelle should come I just you know what you didn't let me finish it I said we should be so good to see but she is because had his miracle no questions and everyone will will go and enjoy thank you very much