Rabbi Elchonon Poupko on Chabad, Litvaks, 770 issue, Shluchim - Rabbi Chaim Dalfin

welcome to meaningful interviews I'm here with RAB Andel has a tremendous Yus pedigree I personally believe met once when I was a student your uncle I guess RAB who lived around the corner from the laaban Ocean Parkway here in Brooklyn in the flat section and of course um his Casher and your family's Casher and your father and your grandfather great-grandfather toim is noted and uh particularly that your great-grandfather helped the previous leave Russia and um your your your family is uh is very much hooked up uh to to kabad I don't know if they originally come from I don't think I think they were really Lish as far as I know um but um there was a obviously uh a strong CER going back to Russia that when I read your the when I listened to the tape of your of your uh of your father right it's your father the grandfather grandfather your grand your grandfather um I I was very moved I was very moved I have to I have to listen to it once or twice again because the way he spoke um as a leader I think of the RCA and the the one who headed the project to go there to to Russia with Russian jewelry uh it was very very touching for someone to get up in those years and Proclaim you know that um who who is like the man behind the the the the rebb you know in the face of the L world and the RCA world and everything else I thought it was very very um special and you yourself are a a rabbi for 11 generations of of of rabic in your family uh you've written some several books and hundreds of Articles been translated to five different languages so um your writing is is known I've been following you for quite a while and uh What uh caused me to ask you now to come on for a interview is because we had laich what we call a really the tunnel f of about three weeks ago which was uh really a skirmish of of you know you some young men who um you know just are carrying on and uh trying to do what they want without permission and without permission both not just of the what they call the anti but even of the Mist I mean no one justifies vandalism terrorism and mishas but uh um be that as May and I'm happy to report that there um although there's videos still circulating of a Vil kitan of wild uh bar you know barbaric but ridiculous Behavior nevertheless it's coming to a head and uh the judge gave a ruling uh this past Friday which I'm not I don't know if you're aware of it maybe you are but uh the implication the way again I'm not a lawyer but the way I read it is that there will be more civility brought uh to the table here by all parties but what caught my attention particularly is that uh you said uh in your article uh the you know I'm coming to you as a as a litvak um and I I don't really uh think you're a real litf um but but I would like to hear a little bit about um what you meant by that if you you know serious about it and because this is something important just one more thing before I let you uh please respond um you know the Yeshiva World News which is which is Lish oriented Lakewood you know they carried my uh my my my clip that I made which went viral had has 14,000 hits already and um again maybe it's coming from me I'm aabir you know I don't hide the fact uh I feel it has a certain slant like told you so I told you so you know your M with M and all that stuff I Told You So and um you know I would like to see really you know when I was a Ab in Yeshiva many years ago you know I was I wasn't as mug as these as these guys that you know broke walls and all that but you know I was a a h biter and you know had very passionate feelings and as I began writing I've been writing now 30 years and I've been writing a lot about the relationship compare and contrast of communities the r RAB salic and the rebba rabbi hutner and the re you knowas inage the and coming out this week and things like that um some will say I mellowed or schma carach I wrote about scha you know I I I really I really you know look to see where everyone's coming from and I try to give the reader as objective as possible you decide you know I'll present to you the information so what I would like to see and I would like to you know hear if it's possible from your perspective can we continue Bridging the Gap between the L world and the world and in particularly theab world and how it stands today uh in face of you know this episode that blew up but it it brought out it brought out shabas I was in flat shabas and this person you know and he just opened up to me you know on one hand you know he would like to you know he would like to come to a faan he's not he's not you know he wears a g actually yeah he call himself wrl okay but the point is um intelligent person you know uh yet you know his kids already are on Lakewood and they're more right-wing so I I I want to I want to talk to you a little bit about that do do you do you see do you think there's an opening for it now more than not or or or not so go ahead Rabbi please first of all thank you so much for having me and thank you for mentioning that history it's interesting that uh my grandfather when he spoke about going to to Russia and he went in the in 1961 when really no no body was going uh he said that the people that he met at the airport he said he wasn't it is a recording from back then he wasn't allowed to speak about he said it was luich are businessman and I think it's so beautiful because you know of course we appreciate the the the work of schim and rabbis but it was actually who were businessmen who were going in Disguise they were in their own way they were going the rebba sent them to to and because they had the business disguised they were able to go they they were the first ones to go to Russia uh undercover and we probably won't hear their stories but we we know that exist and I think that's just an example of times that especially when there's a a Sor for clis we have to put away all the differences and and we have to stand together uh that's I think a good example terms of the story with the tunnels uh look it's a important story inside kabad but it for sure should not have been a story outside kabad and definitely not outside the Jewish world and the fact that it brought such an explosion of anti-Semitism just proves you the old as yov and the number of anti-semites in no way it should it you know it could have been a story on on SE live Yeshiva World but for it to end up in in in in in the guardian Fox new see and all these places that was just a product of of conspiracy theories and anti-Semitism and and and that we have to stand together to condemn because the anti semites that are ganging up now that there's no that um that's reprehensible in terms of the behavior I thought it was ironic because the vild kite you saw from those B which I hear are Israeli is is so parallel in many ways to the Vite you see in ponich when they fight and this Vite you'll see sometimes when the the some in s uh so I and I think there was a sort of a Elders solidarity moment there when satmer put out a statement about it I don't know if you saw but they put out a statement of knowing that we all have the the the wild among us who who who just don't obey by the the rules and they don't ask like you said they don't ask R they don't ask permission uh so in that sense I think that uh it brought us all together it's h it's it's a moment that brought us all together when which period are you talking about sat years ago or recently no no no what on the day that it went on in the media satmer tweeted a letter saying that that they they actually compared it to which have been giving them a bad rep recently and they said uh they said okay look the of these guys we have they were looking to to to help people understand what they're going through with karta who who who claimed to be S and and then s have to issue apologies and clarifications that it's not related to them so they put kind of a solidarity statement with uh so I think it also sometimes the the the in in internal taorus that we have remind us of also what we have in common right and these struggles that we have um in terms of Lish and mm and whatever so yeah look of course the issue of M I'm not fully Familiar of what's going on inside but it does sound like there's a rogue branch and there's a group of people who think they can take everything into their own hands uh and and whether it's people who go and give imaginary dollars or have imaginary with the re walking among them uh I think obviously it definitely has a lak that's very concerning uh and uh it look my heart is with the people in you know it's like s said my our hearts are are with the with the older responsible generation who have to deal with the B who think they you know it's like the guys in ponich who are throwing stenders in the middle of the Bas MERS right okay but but but here here's the question we both know that the the last 7 to 80 years there has been a a difference uh of opinion and sometimes very um not nice okay between uh kabad and what they call sometimes snag litx you know lfish yeah um even even when the Messiah issue way before this let's talk about the 1970s which I you know I was part of you know uh satmer was Satur attacking kabad and violent yeah sure yeah right and but but I want to talk about the the literature world you know I really so so my question is is this just an excuse in other words you know when you say PKA when you say you know I have you know some real issues with um you know this uh mishis right let's take mm away um if a can you take it away and if you can take it away um do you see a a a a way to bring uh the literature world and the kabad world together today or is it the same you know in other words this is my point when I was a b when the Reb spoke about putting on Fillin they attacked him with people they attacked him then filling and L B 1980 they attacked from pich came out you know so what we what we see as the trajectory of of the kabad litvish relationship it's like they F they find every time something else to attack so so so now they they they they attack the they have what to attack because this is you know some stuff is let let me pause for a second I have maybe I missed something I have not seen I don't know reia or whoever considered very lfish I haven't seen them them say a word uh so I don't think that there's some kind of stronger Clash ad I think there are some people who miss the days of of sh and the re and and all these different fighting because it showed that there was substance there it showed it showed the people today it's you know everyone's like as long as we're eating the same food and it's it's a iish it's fine and that's very much where we are today I I think uh people uh satmer feel very actually it's interesting I saw satmer just put out a statement with the rebit was vacationing in California and he had a or something so a local luich that was to me a historical moment that you know the the needs a minion so he goes and he's in a in a show so I think we're in a place there's you can it it's l but there aren't you don't have that ideological uh uh uh debate Fierce debate you don't have that there's no question that the kind of stuff we're seeing from from the M today is is far far far more disagreeable uh than the kinds of smaller disagreements that you had in the say the 70s uh but if if you really want a hardcore litvish Mish I don't know if it's for all audiences uh I I once asked I don't know if I should say his name a very very Lish Riva and I asked them you know what's this thing these guys they're they're uh pretending the Reb is alive there's you know how is this even considered permitted or within the SC of Judaism and he told me why is that different than guys believing that hering that was blessed by their Reb has tremendous and if they just push their way through the bleachers at the Tish to get just a little B piece of hering from the re they'll have every of worth more than learning and so he said he's obviously a lak and to him all all movements are are the same you know but look I think that the the has has more consequences just from our history we've seen it's a tougher one but uh look you know you're right there are L who no matter what's going to happen are GNA say nah you have a situation in today's door where we aren't really debating we're just trying to get along which has something nice to it uh but obviously there's something very unique to what's going on right now uh you mentioned to me uh on the phone or on the WhatsApp that uh you are a rebi in in a Yesa now grade re yeah yeah so is that like AA or modern Orthodox modern Orthodox so let's talk about that for a second the relationship between the modern Orthodox World why you Young Israel with Kabab what's your view on that I think we're going to a place that uh of success for kab that no Lish or modern Orthodox person ever imagined I was speaking to someone who was part of more the conservative movement and they're saying there's this there's that I said look your children and grandchildren will all be doing in kabad and your grandchildren if they're from or even jewishly related they'll all be educated inab schools and I said very simple here's one today there's not a place in the world you can find with no every single place said yes now every one of those who are filling every Jewish corner of this planet has at least five children that want to be SCH and they're not going anywhere and so they're going to find places just like you had kabad houses turn into kabad young professionals there's I I think it's an extraordinary success and uh even modern Orthodox rabbis I think are gonna be seeing H even if you just look at Middle America how many modern North arti rabbis are going to to Middle America you know but so I think there's no question that in 20 30 years from now 80% of Jewish organized life is is going to beab and and and that's extraordinary that's a very interesting stat now why do you think that is in other words do you do you see the rebba the rebba as the reason for that or do you see it as the movement theim the organization how much credit do you from based on what you just said now how much credit do you give to the rebba being involved somehow from heaven and all of that to the success of kabat today or do you see it simply as um good CEOs of companies that know how to take things public look I mean it's like if you ask to to give my V do you hold to be responsible for all the lias he he yeah in a way yes right he started a certain way and and and that took off uh does it mean he's involved in every Yeshiva that he would approve of every Yeshiva no uh and I so I think the rebbe was extraordinary in setting up this This brilliant system that that works that hasn't worked for others I I knew not this only but I had of knowing no Weinberg of a Torah he had a dream and he's gonna set up a Yesa and people are going to go and this and that but how many communities have a aaor rabbi today right not so many uh so I think that the the reab was extraordinary and his ability to to harness the power ofus and his knowledge of of the the world being knowing knowing what you know knowing what's going on in this world speaking multiple languages knowing how to get Logistics going and uh there's no question he is the father of this movement uh and and he's done a lot now it's I'll tell you another thing just from the previous generation I knew Rabel gepstein he was from slonim and he was mirror he said that back in in Europe before the Holocaust there were in in in lith areas there were more than uh meaning I I can't tell you I I I'd like to say this is amazing but I can't tell you that this is so much better than what was done in Europe meaning kabad in Europe also spread like wildfire uh definitely among the Eastern European uh Lithuania Belarus Russia uh so so what they did there was also extraordinary uh but we just it's it's a world that disappeared under the Soviet uh curtain now going back to your uh ancestors your parents grandparents your uncle um particularly again I I I don't know if if uh anyone had as close as a relation to the Reb as uh your uncle y you know but um did you ever speak to them about that so he he has a double ker because his what he married Aaron right right I forgot to yeah so he has I think he has a SE of the there uh so there's definitely he has he has much more in terms of the but in terms of my family it goes back the my great great-grandfather was the RO of a city called Saratov I don't know if you know there's a city in I do know I do know he his name is yov Mo he grew up luich as a kid uh he was later and he you'll hear how Lish it is he has four sons-in-law one was TR tr's son another was levenson the's grandson another one was seagull I don't know if you know no seagull that whole family of seagulls and then my my great grandfather uh PCO so they they were all uh they came they were very Lish but also connected to luich and then what happened was when the Iron Curtain came down there were not many Rabon who stayed behind and so my great-grandfather elzar stayed and he was in touch with the there's a letter the wrote about their meeting in St Petersburg where he told my uh uh great-grandfather that he's going from M neish meaning he was ready to to die to keep yish alive and and by the way that's the secret toab the secret toab is is is is things like that where he said he's going he's going M neish so that's the way to go and uh then my great-grandfather's sister in St Louis I don't know if you know the rascus family they were wealthy and they helped get him actually his first trip when he came when the when the F the came to America his first trip after New York was to St Louis and uh he said that my my great aunt rascus he ate in her house she he said she'd be the only person he eats at her home outside of his own home and uh and then and then my own grandfather ofco was in touch with the re throughout the uh whole Soviet uh jury issue so I think we've been very very blessed to have this sh while still maintaining our own Lish identity but uh it's it didn't just it wasn't born today it comes from generations of right and my understanding also is that you all had a I think a CER strong CER to the right the Rin yeah yeah the's last name was pupco and uh even though he was also in Lish jury he was very beloved and and and and fond of and uh so yeah's last name was PCO and who married a he he learned he he was actually the picture of the he was a close of at the time and he he was one of the and and uh and then my other great uncle who was much more Lish Seitz I don't know if you know there was one of them is rash and tadas but he was R near Boston or in Boston yeah so that's my great uncle so anyhow they were all uh somehow connected uh in one way or another now your um uh when did you like start your your your writing times for Israel like when did you uh you know more the the you know the political greater Jewish uh when did you start doing writing about that you know you see there's a writer his name is Isaac Vash Zing uh he was a great Yiddish writer and he said that a good writer is not someone who writes well it's someone who's not able to not write uh sometimes you know you have it in you you feel it and and you just want to get it out there so I think uh that's uh that's what it is uh and have you found um what's been the response to your writing in The Times of Israel it depends on the issues some issues people are people are very passionate about uh and uh one article that I got very wide spread within kabad response was I wrote that uh um that kab put us to shame what do I mean I mean meaning I'm I'm L and I hold by the and I hold by and I said they they're putting us to shame why because every time I need to help someone who do I call in the local I call every time I someone needs a I call every time I and and I'm saying we're also you know all these These are also things that we're obligated in so how did it become that these are Mitzvah that one Department of Judaism does and and and we don't so it's a in a way it's a for us and actually that someone got in touch with a rebi theiva I went to to complain about it because they was basically saying that we're not doing as good asab but it's unfortunately it's true that many Mitzvah that uh that are mitv of every single y uh we just assume you know you call someone you say oh I have someone he's in prison he said did you speak the so uh it should be that you should speak to any but it's uh it's amazing that do it the most extraordinary moment of this was there was once a a natural disaster the is Israeli foreign Ministry was not operating and the official Israeli foreign Ministry put out a notice if you're stuck outside Israel with no passport please contact your local kabat house like a branch of the government because they they relied on on people being helped so I think in a sense they put us all to shame in their Mish it's a good thing to to have so you know a group we always look up to I want to ask you now two other things one is um have you ever come across that you saw that he was a real in other words I I I I'm asking if you ever had a chance to experience real y on the highest level from so the question is really a question to you because the question is who would you consider I had this of knowing Goldberg he he was rak's son-in-law and he I think was born in Minsk or pinsk you know you know the B of the based in in yes I I know of him yes and and he was a kabad family and and he was the the sort of kabad that you don't really know today uh where they're unidentifiable right so he's from Minsk he's from Bellar Russia he learned in ponich he was I think their first class uh but he considered himself kaban in many ways uh what about what about someone in America or Canada um look in general the scholarship the level of scholarship is the and it's usually much higher in AR is I'm told we moved recently to New Haven I'm told there's a rabbi cman in there that's a very big yes he is uh a lot of times when I'm writing I'll look something up online and there's a tremendous amount of from uh so yeah it's definitely out there and I I I the reason I bring it up is because in in the lit world the general attitude towards is a Kon they don't know how to really learn you know goodis is only to to to the withis you know um and um the truth be told this you mentioned Rabbi cuson he's only one out of many that are big big and some I mean there are some that would be the head of that I know in kabad and I I mentioning it because one of the ways to to bridge or bring people together is from the perspective of the the world is the par parameter you know the Paradigm you know and um it's important to know that even the 770 I could tell you go in there on a regular day there are hundreds of B learning the morning till the evening in a very serious way so that's why I I mentioned it the other thing I wanted to uh ask is um one of the things I've been talking to RAB ke about over the you know last few years and it's resurfaced now when Rabbi Moshe Weinberger was uh and mashia at the ASA University based me from 19 from 2013 to 20 to co 2020 and I interviewed him spoke to him about this um he told me he still sees results today so my question is from your Vantage Point um do you do you see uh a day when at least at yes University uh they they will they will have a Seder Inus I don't know I would like to hear a few words about that from you so so there's two parts here there's Yesa University which by the way has a very strong kabar presence very strong kabar club uh they have Rabbi there rabman who's very enthusiastic about he's a close of and so so I I think there there's there's I think they have Thursday night Sushi and Tanya there's all that going you're up to date you're up to date yeah look I come I come informed so the uh the other issue is in terms of yeshivas I think there's a huge generational shift it used to beab went to the Mir Yeshiva and other yeshivas and I think today because every sect is so big you don't have uh in generals there there's no uh uh crossover and no exchange of ideas between and by the way which is why I'm also very appreciative uh to you for doing this I think there's a very very very very little amount of ideas exchanged between any group uh s Lish we've all become big enough to to just mind our own business and that's not necessarily a good thing in terms of uh the Godless and the Lish world I can tell you in America I got some Flack for writing this uh I hate to say this but and and I'm not saying this Lish could be across the board there's an epidemic of amoratus uh it's it's I spoke to a guy in Lakewood I said to him how many guys in Lakewood finish Rashi the whole thing there's a lot that didn't and and that's a horror H I mean you know since the maral of Prague you have complaints of G about the lack of the and I think that uh something spectacular happened in the past 30 years in terms of the numbers of people studying but in terms of people who are Torah Giants and and very knowledgeable I think that I I'll be equal opportunity offender here and say that the just extraordinary amoratus we have literally 100 of thousands of people learning and when I have a question in learning and I need to send it to there's nobody I can even uh think about who who Who's easy you know to to I got a lot of flak for for writing this I wrote this in in different ways uh the the you know someone told me they called the b in Lakewood so B is supposed to be all your he call and he says you know what's that in this in this case they say better not to he says better not to that I know myself but better better avoid this avoid I don't need a guy to tell me that in a I need to know what I think we have in general something we all can aspire to improve that the amatus in America especially but in this generation is is pretty uh unfortunate ramp unfortunately very ramping okay but H how does this what you're telling me now address my question of willus ever the study ofus not the social as not the you know the the study of will it ever become uh an accepted thing in the litvish world I think in America there's actually demographic answer to that it's much more likely to happen in America than in so when I was in in you did not see a GLE if a guy had a GLE he was embarrassed he hid it under uh and I was actually shocked when I came to America and I see lots of guys putting on gel before and part of it is demographic where people went after the war which communities were able to rebuild and and since you have people like the ponich the K who were hardcore rebuild therefore those places became much more not only lfish but also mises as opposed to America where it's you had much more of a rabbi movich and and rut or any other people who are founders of yish as we know it here they're much more inclined so I think you have a big AR role uh um uh America divide on this issue uh any final things you'd like to say because we're winding down we have about two minutes I just wanted to thank you and say that it's just extraordinary to see not only the M but that goes on in terms of what does and it's something that we all can learn from and that yeah the the issue of uh what's going on now in Crown Heights is primarily forab to figure out and like I said it's it's something that uh every single step an organization and Judaism sympathizes with because there's always extremists and they're usually young and they usually decide that they know better and that is they can do whatever they want and they own the place and uh every every stream in Judaism uh looks and and sympathizes for your time thank you all of your work and and and we should together greet with we're all one and should bring thank you very much thank you thanks a lot I appreciate it thank you byee