Marc Asnin, co-author, The Oracle: Portraits of the Rebbe, part II, interview by Rabbi Chaim Dalfin

you welcome to meaningful interviews with Rabbi K dolphin your host I have today a very very special person marus n was the co-author of the book that just came out the Oracle portraits of the rebi and uh this is part two of our interview with Mark we did one the other day we have already over 800 hits tremendous interest with many comments and uh there's still some unfinished business Mark that I'd like to talk to you about ask you about and um you know and you'll share your thoughts so excellent thank you so tell me a little bit about this re redo's pictures uh the publisher of the book go ahead right so in a private conversation I explained to you redux's picture is my agent my photo agent and they also have an imprint so they've done other photo books I think we discussed this in our last thing Redux pictures had no editorial decision in nothing we came based on my professional relationship to them for over 30 years and I asked them to publish it under their imprint no decision would it never let them have a decision that's just the facts okay so as okay but one other thing I just want to be clear for some of you viewers they may not know this but there's the famous expression the buck stops here by Harry Truman where the buck stops is at me and at doet Zack lovsky okay okay thank you for that for making that clear okay next question I have is who paid for the book dou raised money okay I believe I saw in the last two two to four weeks amongst the publicity some names of schim rabbis uh and others who maybe they weren't I saw amongst the amongst the donors about people I saw it somewhere I don't remember where if I'm correct I do right I just have one question I'll answer that specifically did you ever see the book not in hard cff how did you see the book in a PDF no I didn't see I saw it now you saw excer yeah excerpts people shared with you yeah I'm I'm out of town but uh yeah anyway let me get to my question I'll tell you where I'm going with it in a moment okay so if I'm correct that kabad donors supported the book do you not feel that they were [Music] dubbed no because ultimately I wasn't part of that process but I can tell you now I wasn't in those conversations so that I don't know but based on everything that doin and I discussed over the 10 years didn't take 10 years to produce the book it took 10 years for whatever reason to get this all done but based on everything I've done with doid that's no one this I can tell you I don't know the conversations but no one would have had the right no matter how much money they gave to have a decision in the content of the book that's for sure right I don't know the conversations but the reason I asked you if you saw the book is because in the book it says who were the people who gave money okay there's no secret here right so that's in public domain okay good good thank you for sharing that I appreciate it do do you do you think that if they included rabbis or not rabis or not schim part of the community whoever they are yeah do you do you believe that they were that they knew that Alan nadler's article will appear in the book you should add that the reason I asked you if you bought the book stole the book had a book led to you and I'm obviously being somewhat you know trying to little my stick here however if you go to the book and you those people are public you know how to get their names and numbers you can ask them right but I'm asking you mark what you think do I think they would have given the money if they knew Allan was in the book yeah I don't know you have to ask them I don't know I don't know enough about those people I'd be lying to you right fair fair fair okay I don't know okay now but I can tell you and be firm about it none of those people ever had when I was consistent with you that no one in habad or in the habad hierarchy should have the ability to edit our book that goes for donors doesn't that's consistent right you know and even if someone showed up with a million dollars and you may not believe me or your viewers also I want to be on publicly on record today I make no money from this project I got a speaker fee to be in Florida I got $1,000 to speak there and it was a great honor and I got money to speak in Brooklyn habad you know okay I have not you to give me a li detector test I don't make any money from the book doid makes money I'm not but I make no money for me coming on your show is about principle right not about money okay and and it's very mamin of you no it's not it's not I just I wanted to do something with do it I'm not doing this because I want to righteous this book wouldn't have been published if everyone has to get paid I earn a living in a different way I'm happy to do this as a journalist and also as a Jew because I respect what the Reby did in supporting the Jewish diaspora that's why I did it I'm not a good guy I'm not on a line getting ahead to heaven and I also just want to be clear I'm very proud to be Jewish rabbi I'm not really sure if Hashem really exists in the world it's be it's not how I live my life so I don't want to be thought of being doing this for the righteous reason I did it because I think the rebi is a his interesting historical figure and I wanted to be part of that history as a journalist because I believe 300 years from now when people look back they'll see the rebi doing something that wasn't really done historically okay but I'm not a righteous guy I'm just another idiot in the self self degradation is not acceptable either okay I'm a good guy but I'm not I'm not I got it I got it okay and I think and and and the viewers and the listeners got it as well trust me okay okay okay let let let me let's go on so going back to what you said yesterday and just to follow up now with another question sure said in your mind this is not and never was a tribute for the rebi is that correct right the the process of doing the book was never a conscious process of doing a tribute I'm a journal but I do think that people if they're able to read the book wherever they are in the bigger world if they take it as a tribute I think that's a beautiful thing but I don't make D is also we agree was not a tribute we do think people should take a positive I'm not trying to make controversy which people think someone asked me off the Record if I'm doing this to make money and controversy that's not what this is about it's not okay if people read the book and read 49 out of 50 of those essays I think they're going to come away thinking this guy was a pretty cool guy or however you want to articulate it right okay okay so my question let let me get to my question I I hear you and you said it yesterday and it's clear we know your position Mark your position was very clear okay I have a few questions so the question is question is did you know about when you when you agree when you and doid agreed to put in this article about Nadler did you know what it said truth did you did you read it you knew it and when you and when you read it what did you what did you say listen I don't agree with it when I met Alan Nadler when I did the portrait at the hotel in New York I won't say for security reasons because I don't know if he stays there often but when I met him I was impressed with his intellect he's very articulate he's an educated man I did I told him I didn't agree with his take on it just one second sorry uh I didn't agree with his tape I read the article I don't agree with it I think Allan and I come from very different places he was born into a modern Orthodox family I was doesn't we come from De very different places about the rebi but obviously I've read the article I don't I do after this controversy I do think some points Alan Allan Nadler made from an intellectual point of view I agree with more now I don't agree with him from an emotional point of view as a Jew as a journalist I don't need to agree with him I don't okay I don't agree emotionally but I do agree that he should I read the article I told you yesterday I never met knew who Alan nler was and I told you yesterday there was one specific other person not Jewish a New York figure that could have been very controversial that I wanted to put in the book ultimately that didn't work out I also thought that subject who I don't like who I don't respect but had in an abstract way something to do with the rebi I thought he would have been self-serving that's ultimately why we didn't put him in the book I don't think Alan nadler's self-serving I think he doesn't like kabad he didn't have a connection to the rebi and his big b big issue which again is beyond my pay grade is the rees's interference into Israeli politics okay I don't I don't really care about that right right okay my question my question is what when you're putting together a book obviously the people you chose you choose you have an objective in in other words what was your objective when you chose nadler's article okay so when we okay so when I'm giving you in context text I don't like new Gage now I think it is a problem I respect you you've always been straight with me I find it not so good that you didn't have the book I don't because you didn't read it in context okay but you didn't I'm also not gonna hold back you didn't read the book in context in context you don't know me I'm a very liberal Jew I don't like new grid I think he's really detrimental to America I don't respect him I don't agree with him now during the interview I think he was incredibly articulate I do he's a historian and I'll say he does connect to the rebi on a very deep level from a religious perspective okay he's in the book because I respect differences of opinion okay I respect that he and may He rest in peace Congressman Lewis who was part of the Civil Rights Movement both T came together with Bill Clinton who was the president and gave the rebi the Congressional gold medal I think he deserved it I put new kingri in because he's in voice and why am not harshing on this there are many Jewish politicians who were liberal who would not agree to be in this book because they're worried about their liberal constituents who don't want don't like habat I don't respect that okay I don't respect that I'm not going to put their names out but prominent Jewish or no not for this book was no one asked who was a Jewish elected officials said no but a very famous US senator who's not Jewish who has deep connections to kabad just blew us off I don't respect that I don't even though they're from my side of the aisle there are also people in the book that and this is the truth I don't know the name and I'm not sure if the person wants to be named but there's someone who knows du who's a luer who said yeah they have problems with Allan Nadler I have problems with one of the subject who's an open Messiah person okay you said that yesterday right so that person's in the book I don't think the Reb's Messiah not based on my talid and my learning of the Torah major people inad over the years major rabbis have told me this is not true I'm not saying they right but in there there many people with different opinions so Alan Nadler is one of those people I think he has the right I also think a point is if you read the book and you get to Allan ner and you say I don't like him I don't like his tone of voice I don't like how he I think he's disrespectful to the rebi move on 49 people were glorious about the rebi also May he rest in peace and I don't really care if this upsets people Joe Lieberman in the interview he was interviewed by doid then we went and interviewed him again when I photographed him may he rest in peace and he was a liberal guy to moderate he was so afraid of saying anything about the Reby negative those liberal Jews didn't believe they believed in the separation of church and state Joe Lieberman believed in a woman right to choose but petrified of saying anything that could be worried worried about the largest Jewish Jewish organization in the world that I don't respect either May rest in peace other people walk the tight rope right okay that I don't okay I understand I hear you loud and clear and I and I respect what you're saying okay now one of the main points that people are uh uh commenting and and and relating to me is and I don't think you have an answer for it but I'll ask you anyway okay Y and that is I am doin Rabbi dolin you shouldn't be in you could intering marus is is is wonderful and and it's great he's clear he's honest good interview excellent interview I know the question go ahead question why aren't you intervie zovsky and and Mark Mark let me finish turn and my answer is the truth he doesn't want to come on he doesn't respond and I'm asking you why doesn't he come on or he doesn't want to come to K doin no problem let him come out to the public let him write a letter he owes I I I'm okay it's my opinion it's my opinion mark he owes the kabad world a statement okay so I don't believe he owes okay so with that argument I don't personally agree he owes anything to your community even though he's part of your community you may want him to speak and I hear you loud and clear that's your right and I'm not shocked by that so I have a few things about that okay someone said you you disagree that he forget about O's it's too hard of a World Mark wouldn't it be the right thing the proper thing for him to explain himself being that he's being attacked much more than you and I know you said yesterday you don't agree with that and we'll pass that we have to go on but the perception of the people is that Zach lovsky D Zak lovsky you know um could have this is that perception or should right or should have could or should have not put that in and since he and you put it in he should explain himself not Mark Ain explaining himself but him and I'm asking you why isn't he doing that okay so I have multiple answers so in that conversation it was decided I would be the person to discuss this in this forum okay I have no problem with you saying why isn't he here you have the right and why people in the community that's fine ultimately those private conversations between do and I and why I'm here those are private I'm not asking you the names of that person but what's for argument's sake say why isn't doid here and just one second my phone dropped sorry and and why isn't doed Maybe if I understood you correctly writing a letter to the community like an open letter right okay an upad okay an out bit so with that said and I'm not just follow me I'm not avoiding it I'm saying that's fine maybe he writes an OP bit okay I would like to know with the same concept those people feel w disrespected the rebi by including Alan natlo fine and they want him to own it and you're not happy he's not here today I'm here to represent us both but that said about responsibility I would like to know and Rabbi you're not someone I'm holding to this you're just the r not just the rabbi you're in the community and you're not in an official position as we discussed yesterday I would like to know why the power structure at kabad who's been notified of this they know that people who are officially connected on schis have called for the burning of the book and they've doubled down since our conversation the rabbi in Beijing said he stands by it so there's no sense of well I was upset I was emotional he's doubled down on it okay the rabbi in Alaska who has threatened Our Lives when I called him he told me to call his lawyer okay which is his right I would like to know why the power structure has not asked for them to say no Jew should burn a book now it's not against the law or no Jew which is against the law to threaten someone's life to burn them where is that outcry now doid may have disrespected the rebi from your perspective I understand that or my perspective you your community is not as concerned about me I think that's hypocritical based on the rebi said we were all Jews but can't I'm not studying the Tet I'm not from it's already boring how many times I say that but dub didn't threaten anyone's life and for all your viewers do and I will not take lightly our lives or anyone associated with the book to be burned 75 years ago millions of Jews were burned you don't like to hear it I'm not comparing this to the Holocaust but not going to lie to you that is sickening and absurd very upset I am so upset that no one in habad has the Hooda to call out for those SCH to to to put in the public domain that no one should be violence to anyone in this country but specifically to another Jew so if you not meaning you and I respect you and you've always been straight with me but if you're asking because the community wants doid to write something then I'm calling for the power structure and we all know who they are and I've been in touch with them two of them who were part of the power structure let's see what happens will the power structure condemn that publicly and will the those two rabbis who are official spokespeople will they come back and say that was wrong now let's see that now I'm not saying that David or me shouldn't have to write in oured I'm not saying one one covers the other okay but duid has not and Allan Nadler for the people who have not read the book has not called for violence against anyone in the community and from what I know he's never has so those are on different levels and believe me I am deeply worried for D family okay um I am I'm not worried about I am worried that some unhealthy person will hurt D's family and then what are you gonna come to me and say oh we say a br sorry that's not how to cut it Mark I he I hear you loud I heard you loud and clear and okay all of the listeners and viewers will hear this loud and clear okay and I agree with you that the leadership uh needs to make a public statement that burning of books violence threats of violence is outrageous not accepted and it isn't kabad it isn't Torah it isn't Jewish right right right and I appreciate and deeply respect that you have given the Forum to say that and I'm not just telling it to you make you happy I know that I know that and you know what if you had stayed silent and didn't do the the thing that's being amened we know silence is as bad as the people making the threats because specifically in our own lives but the silence that lets the violence happen right right but but but but but but but I'm going to say something it it might it might upset you but it's not say whatever you like no no no no I'm not convinced yes I I I don't I know one I know one of the two I know him from different talks that he's given publicly it's online you know um okay and I know when he was trained you know okay as an old time kabad niik born and raised and and and and and studied with the greatest minds of kabad and I know the inside all the players I know them from the inside and in fact I know them before these two guys know them these guys are not Johnny K L and I don't care that they're rabbis you know God bless them but I go way back before that and I know all the people in leadership these are my father's friends and I don't want to go into it because it's not time and one of these two fellows that that you're very upset about I again a a a a a protest has to be made by leadership that what he said is wrong and outrageous and not acceptable and he should retract his words but but yes I don't believe he means it it's r it's wait wait okay and my response to rhetoric is it may be rhetoric but rhetoric in the wrong hands creates violence yes and that is may not right and you don't and I don't care if you we know historically I cried that day when Yak Rabin was murdered you may not agree with his political views but murder is not acceptable it's wrong right and right and there was rhetoric in that Society in America when there's rhetoric churches have burned Jews died in Pittsburgh in the tree of life because of anti-Semitic rhetoric it it so every day every minute that the leadership of habad and these ultimately even more important these two rabbis every second that is wasted that rhetoric some person who may have mental health issues in Crown Heights or somewhere else may say this is a calling from Hashem that is radical thinking you don't have to go to sleep at night and other people in the community don't need now to go to sleep at night worrying about their children no habad Rabbi should have put that fear into doid or me and you know what I'm not afraid of anyone in the kabad I'm not I'm not I will stand up for what is right in this situation no one is going to threaten us it's against the law it's immoral and you know what everyone so now no one or many people who are the most outspoken not meaning you because you've given me more than a forum to discuss my our point of view D and I those people have not read the book okay that we know that is a fact okay read the book don't like the book but you don't have the right to threaten people's lives after you read the book then come back with a more educated thing and you know what I don't really care if you steal the book you borrow the book it's not about the money but if you want to make an educated and I understand people are like I'm not gonna buy the book why would I go borrow a book and and on that note Mark how was it you said you and der stood outside on Kingston Avenue selling the book that's right how did that go tell me about that beautiful it was beautiful I had notified the 71st Precinct Community Affairs and the cops that were on duty that night knew I went up and introduced myself and the police officers who I respect on the greatest level providing security for everyone in America and specifically for your freedom of expression as we celebrated that night they said we hope there's a peaceful night it was incredibly peaceful and you know what we sold many many books and I'm having on Sunday breakfast with someone a young person in the community who wants to hear my stories about the Reby there were a few people who disagreed with us it was all fine and all good okay and there was one gentleman who came up and said I heard all the controversy black hat luich he said but there's the First Amendment and I said you know what you get a special discount because you understand that and ultimately he was when he came back he was a balver someone close to my age I think it's dangerous now I don't know why this exists I have my opinions but I'm not giving them because I'm not a scholar you know and I don't want to get on another topic but I think it's dangerous that people underestimate you may be luich you may be from you do live in America though and in America it's not by accident that the founding fathers said the first amendment is freedom of speech that also is your freedom of religion and I was I was very moved okay and one thing because we're talking about faith right and how we live our lives okay one second D it I'll do there was a woman luich woman talking to her kid and she wasn't watching her stroller and the stroller was rolling down the street and I started yelling lady lady you're kid and D got up she Kingston Avenue is honored the client she got the kid and thank us dub said now everyone I don't live my life this way but I respect what dubb said to me he said he thought this was meant to be that it was meant to be that we were on the street not that we saved the kid's life but who knows she wasn't paying attention right I don't agree with d it I don't I don't think it was Hashem I don't believe this was divine intervention why I'm here with you today but I respect David his approach to life and I hope other people can read this book and say you know what I don't agree with Alan Adler I think it's vicious but also where where is the idea that you know what I feel bad for Allan NAA that he's full of such anger and I'm not telling you this there some of this that's within me I feel bad for both of those rabbis because I feel bad that they're full of such anger and I think they didn't get the message of the reing go ahead do you because we only have a few minutes left okay um do you do you think David will be ostracized from the kabad community that's one question number two do you believe that that his WR his writing for kab.org and and other and laich archives which she heads and other um B work that he does do you believe it will be impacted in a negative way because of this okay first from what I know dou never writes for hab. org okay he writes for many Jewish Publications but from what I know he never writes. he worked for.org so that's what I meant he works with okay right I I don't know I'm not in the community I'd be lying to you I don't know okay answer is clear you don't know next right but but but I would say that's what this argument's about I think it's also different Rabbi if you work for a publication and you publish your own book I think there are different responsibilities so in my existence when I work for a magazine and I gave them when I gave the Reby all those images to the New York Times I had no say in what what pictures were published right so if D's working for a Jewish publication I would hope I would hope and maybe pray I don't know what I'm praying to I'm praying as a Jew okay I am and I couldn't be proud to be a Jew the only mother more important thing in my life is being a father now that may upset some of your viewers and I don't really care but I would say as a Jew I would say I would hope du is not ostracized I would hope because I would think for me then if he is ostracized I'm one of what 15 million Jews in the world I would be have I would have a negative view of the bigger Community doesn't mean that doesn't mean I have a negative view of the but if that happens let's put this on record I think then we need to explore about the community not the rebi because I don't from what I know that was not the rebi he never turned his back on any Jew and we know factually many Jewish Publications and many Jews who came to visit the rebi he disagreed with what I respect about the rebi he didn't capitulate to those he's stuck by his I think hassidic values or his Jewish values but he would have never he would have never called for dubb to be ostracized and you know what I didn't like my father in law I didn't I didn't respect him I didn't like him I think he was full of hate but one thing that I learned from him is that he told my wife growing up get more with honey than vinegar I