Dr. Rus Chana Pechenik, Psychologist, NY Office Mental Health, Suicide Prevention #2 - RC Dalfin

welcome back to the second installment of this wonderful interview with Dr Rus Han Panic from Buffalo New York who's a clinical psychologist working for the state of New York um in suicide prevention as well as doing work with the fir community of Greater New York on these issues and uh the first um interview was was wonderful and very special only at beginning only a beginning more to come the last point that we were discussing Rana is what I shared with you my own experience of how through becoming a confidant for a young uh teenager actually uh older teenager should say about 180 0 years old um the uh the issues of suicide uh dissipated and today they're a married person with children and uh it just solidified for me who's not a psychologist or psychiatrist a rather a rabbi and a teacher and all that it it solidified for me the important the the necessity the absolute necessity of having young men and women in the Yeshiva system in the girl school system of being confidants friends and talking with with the the young man or young woman like a young older brother uh older sister and it has to be someone who's not a parent and not a teacher but someone in between and U you wanted to follow up on that please yeah so so two things related to that um so when I came to this country I was 16 and it was a very dark and confusing time for for me because I came by myself without my parents and up until that point I thought that professionally I was going to bring babies to this world I wanted to be a an optician and when I was 16 I realized that my call was different that I wanted to be there for kids who needed somebody to talk to and that's how I started I started quite young and I started working with um kids 12 13 when at the time I used to live in in Miami now now the other piece in terms of having a confidant and talking to kids or young people um there is a myth that if we talk about suicide if we ask somebody if they're having thoughts of suicide that we're going to be putting ideas in their head and that is the biggest misconception it is actually a relief to be able to share with somebody the Str struggle that uh a person is undergoing so if the audience can get one thing out of our conversation today is that you will not be putting ideas into anybody's head if you ask them are you having thoughts about killing yourself it is important to be able to talk about it and that is part of what I also do is to provide the language to parents and to Educators and to therapists to be able to ask these questions um believe it or not even clinicians feel very uncomfortable talking about suicide if they have not had the proper training which in most uh graduate programs it's not part of um part of the training people need to develop these skills and develop the comfort and the conf idence to be able to ask and then to know what to do if somebody says yes I am thinking about um killing myself and often times once we get to what is going on it tends to be something that we can that it can be resolved um many years ago I saw a very powerful documentary in which um people who had had an attempt uh had jumped from um the Golden Gate Bridge and just a handful of people survived but those who survived those who survived said that after they jumped they regret having jumped that they wish they would have taken a different step so yes for a second yes I told you before you're from Ecuador and my mother was raised in Costa Rica right yes yes one one connection another connection is I was the kabad rabbi across the Golden Gate Bridge really in Marin County wow 1984 to 1992 wow so I know very well about the Golden Gate [ __ ] yes go ahead yeah no yes so I should I should send you that that video yes yes so again once we heard from people who had survived an attempt that when they jumped they wish they would have made a different um decision that really sparked um the interest and the commitment in finding out how people who are suicidal can be helped and many times it is is about having that connection when people are suicidal a lot of it is they want to end the pain and people experience pain in different ways so being able to address whatever is causing their pain is really the goal of Suicide Prevention and for people who have been chronically suicidal um there are treatment works so the way that we address that is we teach people skills what you can do when you're when your thoughts of suicide and that intense impulse is at its highest what can we do so that you can get you can get through it so the way suicidality works it's an EB and Flow people are not always suicidal so it's about getting through that period so in suicide prevention for somebody who is suicidal is we talk about how to put some distance between the person and their intended method so different people have different methods and that is part of a safety plan so a safety plan is teaching people to identify what are the thoughts the feelings or the events that may put them in a vulnerable position and developing a plan in terms of what can you do at the first sign that you may be getting into that head space so what can you do by yourself how can you distract yourself what can you do who can you reach out to um for people who who are suicidal or in an emotional crisis there is a number 988 which is 24 hours and those are trained counselors who will talk through um a crisis and also being able to share with people one or two people close to them that they're really struggling and again it can be a mentor it can be a mashia it can be a friend it's most of the time it's not apparent um but having this safety plan so that the person when they're in the middle of a crisis they can refer to it because at the moment your mind is going to be clouded so and the best way for me to explain what suicidality may look like is if I ask you to take off your glasses what do you see you see things blurry you are not able to see what is right in front of you right and once I put on my glasses I'm able to see clearly and that is exactly what happens when our brain is overwhelmed when we're in a crisis so that's why having a safety plan is important communicating that to others because when we're not able to think clearly we can have this very simple tool to be able to REM remind us of what we need to protect ourselves well thank you for that um I do want to go now um a little bit let's talk a little bit about your own background and then uh kind of finish the interview with uh a combination of your background and its uh its impact on your work and uh but just share a little bit I know that um you told me that uh your father was a holocaust Survivor um so why don't to take it away and uh tell us what you'd like about your own life and uh experiences as far as raising a family what whatever whatever you think is relevant to our uh listeners which I'm sure everyone's eager to hear about yourself okay so I'll just I'll give you um just a a little little window into my background um as I mentioned I was born in South America um my father was Danish um and he was part of uh the Danish resistance so um he was born in 1921 so he was very young when when the war started um but he was somebody who had a lot of ideals and believed in doing the right thing and um he would befriend Germans and he would find out when they were planning on doing transports so he would bring the information back and they would they would bomb the railroads um and then they would be able to save all the Jews and put them in a boat and send them over to Sweden and as as we know um Denmark was able to save most of the Jewish population yes so as you can as you can tell by by that um I am a convert um I was by by the way by the way uh you can't it's not it's not a given you say whatever no no no no I I I I think it's important for you to understand that part of me um I was raised watching Holocaust uh movies and documentaries as early as I can remember um this is how we observed Shabbat um so every Friday night my father would put on these documentaries he wasn't able to talk about what he had been through um eventually he was captured by by the Germans and he was sent to a concentration camp um so like most Holocaust Survivors he couldn't talk about what he had been through um my mother was um from South America and um she was a very religious person and I grew up going to Sunday school and the first time when I questioned why I was not Jewish I was 5 years close the window sure okay so I was five years old when I first became aware of what I felt and who I was and that contradiction so over the years I made choices um um and I had a an orthodox conversion um just one before you get say get here so your F you knew you were Jewish at five years old no I was wondering why I was not Jewish at five years old no but did you know your father is Jewish no my father was not Jewish so my father was Danish and my father was part of the is resistance oh oh so so so both of your parents weren't Jewish correct oh I misunderstood you I thought your father was Jewish and your mother wasn't okay yes so my father ended up leaving his family um because they were all anti-semites my father had no contact with his family um they actually so the work that he done that he did in the resistance as being criminal um and now what now what made him I mean he's not Jewish it what made him feel this way is just that he had a very very you know good soft heart and he couldn't take what's take happening to the Jewish people yeah I I was never able to ask those questions of my father my father died when I was 25 so um I knew I learned more about him after he after he passed away I learned that from his youngest sister who they never saw each other after 50 years my father died in 1992 and he just he was never in touch with his family but through her I learned a lot um and it was a very sad story but nevertheless my father taught me that there was something very special about the Jewish Nation um and he gave up his life his way of life to to do what was right and for me it was the Gateway of my father gave me and my children the biggest gift and it was the gift of becoming Jewish um so you so you you were moved to become Jewish because of what your father did for the Jewish people you just felt a craving a real strong desire you want to be Jewish is that what I'm hearing yes I couldn't understand it but I knew that I was not in the right place um and I had to walk away from from my Christian family um and I once I had my conversion and I raised my family I wouldn't change it for anything but did you did you keep up uh uh did you keep in touch with your parents or not once you became Jewish um I I am yes I am in touch with my family and my sister so there was only two of us my sister I'm talking about your parents yeah you became Jewish while both were alive no my father was no longer alive but your mother was yes and God she still is still is so did she accept your uh becoming Jewish or she was very unhappy oh she was very unhappy but over the years she has learned to respect my choices and she loves me and she loves my children um but it's it's a different type of relationship I understand so now how did all of that your upbringing and what you're sharing with us about you know your father being in the Holocaust and what he did how has this an impact on your work with suicide prevention so having grown up in a household with a parent who was in the holocost he had severe PTSD um there were screams in the middle of the night um there were things as a child I knew something was not right but nobody ever talked about it so it has really informed my commitment to educate families so um before I got my my doctorate in Clinical Psychology I have also a master's in marriage and family therapy um and so I have both licenses so being able to work within the family is very powerful because you can work with an individual but unless you also work with the family with the community is very hard to bring about change so that's where my commitment comes from um a lot of it was my upbringing my experiences um seeing what happens when somebody goes without treatment um the pain that it causes I understand emotional pain because I grew up with a lot of it um and I know I can bring the message to say that treatment works and there is there is a place in a space when medication may be necessary when therapy is useful and to bring down some of the barriers the shame the guilt um which is what we discussed earlier if we can bring down those barriers improve communication people can live full lives healthy lives and we don't have to repeat the same pattern generation after Generations so it's inter it's interesting that you say that because I too am a second generation poal survival my parents are both from the Holocaust and my grandparents were and I I'm relating very well to uh what you said earlier about your own family your father in particular you know and um the emotional I don't know if use the word chaos but trauma what whatever the word word is you know so uh I understand that and it's you know I don't know how it's for you you but for me it's it's a it's something it's a very it's a lot of work to be able to you know I'm an American I I would but but I my house was such a European home like we were parked in Poland 1940 okay and and and uh that didn't that didn't change the fact that we lived you know in Brooklyn and thank God no one's killing us and no one's shooting us and we can go to we can have a nice shabas table together and then we we went toin and all of that but uh the the the inside of the person you know comes out in a day-to-day uh way and um it's a lot of work but I I do agree with you I do agree with you that uh with with education treatment and the willingness to I'm going to say something I don't know how you feel about it but the willingness to say that right or wrong mistakes were made right or wrong um the situ some of the situations of the past is not healthy for the present and and it's a different world and in a way we have to forget that you know the rebba you might have heard this from Rabbi Greenberg and others the rebba was such a believer in not bringing up old issues arguments divisiveness of the in the Free World said it's a new world you know the you know the the stal arguments and issues and emotions and and and the rabbi said this and the said this and I hate you and you hate me and you have more money and on on and on and theim and the and the gossip you know like hey deal with the situation now so the re you know if we only follow his advice because he lived that way and believe me yes he had family baggage too you know you know he lived a century what what a century the man lived through this great sadic the rebba born In 1902 passes on 1994 1905 the Japanese Russo War Russian war and then the 1914 the first World War 1917 the Bak Revolution then the then 1919 the PS the kishna PS and other pgs and and L goes on then Stalin and then surviving the Holocaust and and God doesn't give him and his wife children I mean do you need more I mean you know and look and look and look what he did and look what he did and what he does not just what he did what he does what one of the reasons that I see is hey put that aside you know it's the history we know it now what can we do about things now so I I I hear what you're saying and I I really uh relate to it and I hope our listeners are paying attention you know they have to pay attention that we need to uh listen to The Cry of the child and Al and be willing you knowas you learnis talks about modesty humility you know subservience just put aside put yourself aside and and and listen listen and follow you'll be in better shape and and and kids who are at risk and kids who are dealing with these suicidal issues that you help them with um are looking are looking for us to to help them and to educate them I just wanted to share that with you what what what what um what do you think about what what I just said any any thoughts no I I agree with you I definitely agree um the one thing that um and probably most of us are not even aware until it's raised um there is such a thing as intergenerational trauma and even a look or a response we will see that I have seen it in my own children my children are three generations from that I guess yeah they would there would be third generation for from the Holocaust and they had grandparents on both sides because also on my husband's side both as parents um they were they were in the in the Holocaust and my kids carry it and they were never they were they were not born at the time but yet the trauma is very real so I think that acknowledging the impact of trauma is also important um and with awareness we would be able we will be able to change some of the patterns that get passed on from generation to generation I I want to ask you um what what do you think with using kidus the teachings ofis the behav the behavior ofis have you given this any thought and I'm saying specifically you know no even even if person is not a is an orthodox Jew okay A L AIC Jew whatever but the messages of the bentto do you feel that they are very important for this uh issue of Suicide Prevention or not no yes yes so just like there is no one cause to suicidality there is no one cure It's a combination of things and every person is different so for one one person it may be hdus for other person may be a combination of treatment and also having hius and for other people Unfortunately they may not be interested in hus at all um may just be treatment so I think it's very important to join the person where they are at the moment um most important thing is their safety and we can Infuse other things as they need um but yes I I have seen people who their hdus is what has kept them alive what what has been their um the the foundation of their resilience so yes I I agree with you reminds me something I read years ago there was a book that came out by an author uh was a woman her last name I think was Wellen she wrote about kabad girls in CR height she did a study and I remember this line that stayed with me she said and she was talking about girls you know who weren't kind of going in the in the path you know and following everything and had some of these issues and other issues and it was a it was a study it was a PhD study for her anyway so she says there that one thing I could tell you that out of all the girls that I interviewed there are two things that they have in common and that is positive and one is the T he said regardless of how far they went in their observance non-observance and their addictions and some of them went very far they spoke about the Tanya it's the Bible it's just this is the guideline for life even though they're not living out the T that was one thing she said and the other thing in her study she found that they spoke about the rebel that's why I have both of these pictures right behind me he said the re by them was only good only special only someone to learn from and and I I thought a lot about this because you know here talking about people who are in a rebellious mode okay so what the rebel wants of a Jew is what the Torah wants what the bat the AL wants in Tanya is what God wants in the Torah right and they're not living that way and they're not living that way in a way that's can be very hurtful to to themselves their parents the community and you know and to the ultimate issue of suicide which you know you deal with and help helping so many people right but nevertheless simultaneously it's like they're walking around with a picture of the reer or re in their heart and and the Tanya so some will say well this is hypocrisy you know it's hypocrisy make up your mind you're a reev person you're a Tanya person or you're you're an addict addictive person and but based on everything you said today it becomes more clear to me that the two are possible and that people and people are struggling and the AL in his chapter 27 teaches that if you don't struggle you're not normal struggling is part of life and growth yes you have to harness the struggling and direct it in the right way which is what you're you're doing but struggling is a positive thing so I just when I'm listening to you I'm reflecting back on on you know on this idea yes well we can only experience growth after struggle and there's only daylight After the Dark of night right right right well I met your wonderful son that's how um how how I even got to rusana I have to thank you publicly taking me with her son to the airport I was in Buffalo a week ago or so and I needed a ride and she gets up very early and she with her son did me a favor and drove me to the airport and that's when we made this contact but your son was wonderful he chased me down and sure he called me I guess he's read over some of my things or listened on YouTube and uh he had some questions in history which we spoke about so uh you should have only from him and the other children and God should give you the K and really um the the help from Heaven to succeed in this because this is this is very very real this is this isn't just you know um a little this or a little that you're talking about life and death here this is there there is no other door this is the end or it's the beginning It's The End the beginning so um you know God bless you that you could do this I mean that you have the background in the expertise but you have the wherewithal uh to to to do it and I and I want to encourage uh my listeners to you know if you're open to it you have to consult with you they you know they shouldn't need it but the fact like you you shared with us is that it's it's in the community so um we need it and we need talk about it like you said it's only to be a sh Ed about ashamed of and um if if we open up you know there's a famous teaching in of the re he says the name of his great-grandfather King Solomon says in Proverbs if you have anxiety anxiety in man's heart diverted think Solomon the wisest of all man what kind of right viice is it of course I want to divert it I can't I'm anxious so what does King Solomon say comes along withed and says the the the word the Hebrew word can be spelled with a Hebrew letter or a Hebrew letter sin the word if you spell it with a sin it doesn't mean divert it means talk it out how you how do how do you divert anxiety by can get out it's exactly what you were saying all along that's how it helps alleviate anxiety talking it out don't be ashamed to talk it out and that makes you feel more I like the word cathartic you know cleansed pure free happy you know yeah it's all right the cry it's all right it's all right to laugh you know it's all right it's it's so healthy to allow your emotions to come out and to find someone who is willing to hear you and to feel with you and and and and and that's why I I brought you on today to to this program because there's not enough of it because in our communities as you see in the last five years because we are by and large a a post Holocaust Community you know and for the Russians it it's a post Stalin you know we're basically coming from a lot of Trauma from a world of trauma yes so it it's it's it's in our bloodstream and it's so difficult so in our communities this is even more important to to to acknowledge first things you have to acknowledge I'm not I don't mean to let you and teach you you're you're the professional not I but I'm just talking out loud a little bit so what would you like to say in conclusion well I I really want to thank you for this opportunity and for starting this conversation and I hope that if yes we have 50 seconds goad oh we have 50 seconds okay so if any one has any questions please feel free to reach out to me I'm I'm available this is part of what I do um if you can maybe you can post my email address sure um and I will be glad to take phone calls um because