Rabbi Yehoshua Weber: The Four Sons, the Judeo-Christian, the Korban Pesach & the Cross.

is again we touched on it briefly [snorts] is the Hagada that we'll be reading is it just seems so harsh right I mean the Torah is full of you know love and kindness and small and you really don't accomplish anything by beating somebody up but by criticizing them it just doesn't work and yet there is this Russan this evil son where he hack now it doesn't mean knock out his teeth that's a mistransation it means blunt his teeth but like what are you accomplishing? And like why are we immediately going towards negativism? If there's a son who is, you know, going in a bad direction, then try to bring him close, but but it's just all negative, right? I mean, just what what's going on with the so I I I think the answer and and much of this is not my idea. There's a wonderful writer, Amnon Bazak, writes beautifully, mostly in Hebrew, but much of it's translated now, mostly available at the Gushetsion website. He's just very insightful and he says the type of idea that once he says it you say well that's so obvious why didn't I think of it but you know those are truly profound ideas not long complicated with 40 48 you know different sources that but just the simple reading of the text who is this Russia what's going on so he points out that so often we forget that we live within our little block of time but it wasn't always this way so when we have a god forbid if this child who was OTD, who was a challenge, it's it's a pain, but usually that child isn't doesn't have the wherewithal to give us over to the Nazis or give us over to the communists, right? But historically when a Jewish child left the fold, he didn't leave towards that middle world that is that that is sort of neither Jewish nor goes. You know, maybe the the the classic um um paradigm for this, the paradigm for this would be the Israeli, right? Israeli was he was prime minister of England. He was born Jewish. He was a mishumat. I think he was baptized. I believe he was baptized. And people asked him, "Well, what religion are you? Who are you? What is your identity?" And he took out a Bible. He took out their Bible, not ours. And their Bible has the Old Testament, our Torah, the New Testament, their Torah, and a blank page between the two. And he said, "I'm that blank page." So modern man has the wherewithal to live as a blank page. But historically, you couldn't. You had to belong to religion. Life is too short and brutal and people couldn't function without belief in God because death was all around you. And and religious authorities um um obligated you to. If you were Jewish, you had you were bound by Jewish laws and Jewish courts would punish you. Up through the Middle Ages, Jewish courts in medieval Europe could could put people in could whip people, could find people. Um Christian courts could do the same. So, you had to belong somewhere. Okay. And if you left and he went over to the other side, he he didn't just become a member of that world. He was a real threat to our world. Because we all know that when people flip over and they feel guilty over what they've done, they're conflicted. They end up becoming the most terrible anti-semmites. I actually I got a little sheriff in the morning in ' 84. >> Self-hating Jews. >> Self-hating Jews. And sometimes it's because they're so conflicted of what they've done. They've left their family. They they've rejected their world. The world rejected them. every time they see them there's this animosity and they end up hating themselves and hating us even more and if you want a contemporary example I actually shared it just yesterday at little little group I learned after Davini the Nazis more it's it's just hard to understand [laughter] what motivated not just the depravity but the intensity of the hate I mean Hitler and Makimo destroyed Germany by destroying the Jews he would have had the Jews he would have had the he would have had he would have had Jewish creativity he would have had so so much everything that he could have had he destroyed when he destroyed the Jews. But he was so focused on on on finding each and every Jew that there were stories of Jews who were griers. Um it's a German term. It means grabbers. They were Jews in Berlin and Amsterdam and perhaps other German cities who were given freedom by the Nazis. Their job was to circulate the Jew streets and identify Jews that they knew from before the war. facial recognition who were living with false papers or who were hidden or had a non-Jewish spouse who was who was protecting them. And maybe the most infamous of them was a woman named Stella Kubler. Um during it began the Nazis told her, "If you don't start reporting for us, we're going to deport your parents to Awitz." They deport her parents to Awitz. And she still continued doing what she did. She was supposed to report one Jew a week, one Jew every two weeks, one Jew a month to stay alive. She she went far beyond that. They um by the end of the war it seems she may have killed 2,000 Jews in Berlin. Um and after the war she became a ferocious anti-semit even though she was Jewish. In the end she committed suicide which is sort of what you expect. But but you're just so conflicted you just don't know where to place yourself. You don't know who you are. So when a Jew left the fold [laughter and gasps] it wasn't just a child who wasn't keeping mitzvah. It was someone who had left our world had gone to that world and because of that he would persecute us. And so who were the people who went through the Talmud during the Middle Ages and found anti-Christian statements and had an editor or had the Talmud burnt? These were Jews. And who were the leaders of the Spanish Inquisition? Jews. Jews who converted out who had to sort of place themselves. So what I'd like to prove is is that the son who was a Russia was a Russia. He wasn't a child who wasn't keeping mitzvos. It was a child who was a threat to the community and the parents are being told you have to recognize the reality. Um either you're with us or you're against us. But the people who are against us are really really against us. And by extending your hand too much and inviting him in, he's a danger. He's a moser. He'll he'll report on you. He'll report on others. He'll create problems. You have to recognize that. I don't think parents are dealing with that now. But pe parents did deal with that now. But I'd like to prove this. And I'd like to start by by just noting how we sometimes forget everything is colored by time and place. Let's jump ahead to a minute that we have. We're jumping ahead. There's a minute to put flowers in. But what was the early minute? It wasn't to put flowers. The minute was to place trees. Mash is the time of burum. Fruits that grow on trees. Mashw is when you daven for um the fruits that grow on the trees. It was about trees and then the guy stepped in and said well the Christians put up Christmas trees which is a relatively recent meaning in their world also that goes back to about 1500 >> they took that from us >> so they I I don't know I I'm not I don't think so because when the Christian mig and you should know religions I'm among friends but I'm being recorded are really not as different as we like to tell ourselves they are people have needs people need ritual people have structure people have leaders People have holy books. People have commentaries. They're not as different. We can demonstrate empirically that our religion has is true. But you know the things are not so as different as we'd like to tell ourselves they are. This ritual developed probably around 1500 in Germany. They had expelled the Jews by then. By the end of 15th century, all Jews had been expelled from the west. [snorts] So I don't think it was taken from Jewish roots. But once it circulated and made its way to Eastern Europe, the guy said, "We can't have it in jewels anymore." And so the minute changed. Well, you'll say that's just a mic, right? Mhagam changed the text of the Mashtana. We have four questions that they certainly d didn't ask in the during the times of the mdash because one of the four questions is it's so strange. We lean. Okay. Um like it's so odd to people, but during the times of the bases, people lean normally. That's how they ate. Okay. And there's talk about dipping, which is sort of a strange way of eating. That's the way they ate in the ancient world. And so if you look at the manas, it's brought down its original version. It was marketkedly different. Look at our man one. There's an emphasis. One of the questions is about leaning. The next one is about how we sit um and and and dipping. But the man the Mishna is totally different. The manana in its earliest version is is that tonight we eat roast. All nights we don't necessarily eat roast which we don't. play laser that was taken out and language about differing but different language because now we have to dip which means the manana changed which is fine because the reality changed just the way the meaning about um flowers and sh changed just the way so so many other things changed so we're dealing with four sons where one of the four sons is perhaps off the derek one of the four sons is is you know has issues with drugs has issues with hedonism has issues has issues with us because um you know children sometimes when they have issues with life make the issues issues with parents. Issues with parents aren't always issues with parents. Parents are sometimes an a way for a child to sort of um cover for his own um issues. But whatever they what >> Right. Right. Right. And they're there and they'll take it because and the child knows it. Right. Um [laughter] [clears throat] um but when they become parents themselves actually they usually become much better. They realize >> when they grow up. >> Right. Right. when they become parents themselves that's when they realize um but either which way so um all of this is a little bit of background let's talk about the four sons and let's talk about you know who these four sons are so firstly even the language of the four sons if you go to the just to show you how things have changed look at 12 there are four sons and >> right it's not the language we have right we have and Actually, you know, many people are used to translating Tom as being a not very bright child. >> Tippish from >> uh um from >> What language is Tibish? >> Oh, Tibish is Aramaic. Arabic. >> Yeah. Yeah. So Tom Tom actually conqueror of Mosha, interestingly enough, might be the good son because the Arab, you know, when when you look at the four sons, you you you think of four um extremes, right? You got a rash who's a bad guy who's the good son. [clears throat] The doesn't mean good is smart. Hitler was probably very smart. Stalin was probably very smart. Your smart person can be very evil and just smart, >> right? So it would probably be and that's sort of Mosha reads it. Um it doesn't really read if you you know you shift um tes to t. But these are all separate discussions. Each one needs a Russian to itself. But what you see is the language of the mahashandanda changed the language of the four sons changed reality changed and and our life changes accordingly. But sometimes we continue carrying over language because it's been I I hate to use the word but it's the right word canonized. It's the right word canonized is is not a Catholic term. Canonized means it's become the canon. Right? So canon >> canon right? The Catholic Church uses the term a lot when they have like you know sack they call it canonized when something has been canonized by the church. They have you should know I actually you I I once sat next to a priest on a short flight um and I couldn't resist. I mean I I I I you know >> this a joke or >> No, I did. >> It was a very short flight. I sat next to >> we did I've had so we we've again it's easy out of town. We had the local priest for you know for Shabasud though it was it's a different world out there. Um so um and he actually became my buddy. I quoted him buddy. I quoted him in an article I wrote from Mishbaka. So um >> this is where it comes from. >> The rabbit from the plane or the or the >> separate priest. The priest on the plane was >> the priest and the neighbor. >> So the priest on the plane was one. The neighbor priest was another. Um [clears throat] I well >> okay on a plane right so you know and I had him for an hour and I was actually you know I asked them about das Torah you know we have dash Torah they have they have something similar >> well [clears throat] right but they also have um papal infallibility it's something what the pope says is like dash terra for them right I mean the concepts are so so similar so just so you should know their dashra is much more limited than ours papal infallibility set is once every century or two. It's when the it's when the pope is sitting on the kia cavode and it's a special. >> Yeah, it's just it's it's much much more limited. You know, they have their dash, but it's much more limit. That's a complete digression. Okay. I I don't even know why we went there or how we went there. Um >> the plane ride, >> right? But how do we get to the plane ride, the priest? Um but how >> talking to him about canonizing? >> Oh, canonizing. That's how we went. Um so so the language of the god has been canonized but it meant something different initially. Now the hagada talks about four sons because the terra talks about four sons. There's no debating that right and they're right there in front of you. And look 8 9 10 11 four sons. And the Torah when it portrays these four sons u portrays four different types of children. So the Torah is preparing a template for interaction with four different types of children. you know a good one let's not use Russia one who's challenging a very bright one doesn't break it down >> right >> speaking about four sons to speaking about sons four times four >> times decided they were four different >> right but the language is a little bit different the response is a little bit different and the Torah wouldn't repeat itself just for the sake of repetition so it it lends it >> right right midrashic thing is is sort of developing sukim if you have sukum three four times And there's differentiation. Well, then it's probably talking about four scenarios which creates a template for four different types of kids and the four extremes that we're dealing with. They can all be one child. Um the and you know the right one and the upright one. The the one who follows the rules and the one who doesn't. Now the bright one might follow the rules and the upright might not or the reverse the right one might not follow the rules. So it's it's just as parents dealing with these for you know potentialities. Now again there are thousands of potentialities because people are people and they vary but understand within with your realize that there are four pieces to the puzzle. Now this is these are the sukim and this lends itself to the idea that there is a son who is out of the box doesn't follow the rules who is a Russia but what is this Russia? So that same Urashalmi defines the Russia and I want you to see the Urashalmi and this core idea is again I don't want to take credit I've developed this I I will admit to that but much of this comes from again Raazak writes beautifully available online you can search him I think much of his writing is in English also so look at the source okay um spoke in Russia now who is the Russia Like what is the Russia? So a Russia we would think is a bad guy. One who doesn't keep rules, right? Doesn't mean he's stupid, right? He doesn't mean that he's if anything he might be bright, right? So how does he challenge us? What does this work for you? Now what does that phrase mean? Again, that's the language of the and we read it without thinking about it. We're accustomed to reading it. What does this mean? Right? But the way the says it is not what does this mean? Why are we so bogged down with all of the hard work that Pes entails? There's a lot of ritual comp. You got to clean. You got to set up a sader. You got to make mas there's lots of dos and don'ts. So [snorts] his question is why are you so busy with so many rituals and laws? What does that remind you of? How did Christianity begin? This is not you know this is just the beginning of the discussion. What was Christianity's critique of Judaism and let's Christianity is a little foreign to us because we live so far removed. Let's talk about reformed Judaism. >> Right? I mean the people who started reformed Judaism it I I we do ourselves an injustice when we simplify or minimize or we diminish. We say whether that's so stupid or silly. It's it it you're not having a proper you're not having a real conversation. you just you're not at changing ideas. Many of the people involved in form were very bright, very educated, very learned, passionate. Some of them meant well too. Now there were great who understood it's not going to last and it's bad and it needs to be stopped like but lots of other people didn't see that and the reality is most Jews ended up opting for reform. Um Mosha Medals Medson is criticized harshly for the fact that four of his five sons converted out and we sort of view that as as as as a critique of him which it is but there was there's a great scholar Jacob Frank he's passed on he was at Hebrew um he studied Germany during the period he points out that the vast majority of German Jews during the late 18th century 19th century embraced reform because they they never dealt with it. It's like when the when the Europeans came to North America um maybe 99 plus% of Indians died from communicable diseases because there was no no exposure. There was no um immunity at all. Um so you some of the liberals are using the term now genocide for the you know Indians in North America. It wasn't deliberate. It wasn't it wasn't at all like Hitleros genocide. That was genocide. But people came with diseases. They had no immunity. They had never been exposed. German Jews, um, European Jews had never dealt with non-Jews who welcomed them with the ability to work in the secular world to to go to gills. They never dealt with it and and they were swept away. Reform succeeded because only again great were able to see through. Most did not. And most young people, whether they were children of Mosha Medlesson or of most Rabbon and Shokim, ended up becoming reformed, ended up converting out cuz people had never dealt with it. And reform came with a pretty sensible message. They said, you know, you Orthodox people are so busy with the trees that you're losing sight of the forest. You're busy from morning to night checking your tits and putting on film and and all of this ritual stuff. you don't have time to for moral issues for for for for real thought the response back that you and I see to this very day is that from Jews who are busy with titsis and trillin and paying tuition somehow find the money to give taka some have more money to visit nursing homes right it just why how we do it it's because we're used to stretching because the Torah makes us better because we have the ritual but their critique was because you're so focused on ritual um you're losing sight of the morality. That's really what how Christianity began. Um Christianity became that um the new Jews um God is is um um don't need the ritual of the Old Testament and you can move on to a um a relationship with God without structured mitzvah. They were wrong just the way reform was wrong. But it wasn't a crazy message. And I'll tell you it's most mashiach. [laughter] There are all these madrashim that modernly bottle and mitzvah lust and I just mentioned this about mitzvah not having the same role because um people will be on such a high level. So I mean reform clearly was a terrible terrible debacle but the idea is the same idea that Christianity began with you don't need all this stuff. This stuff is counterproductive. Now look at what the Ben Russia says. What does he say? What does all this work? Why is he saying that? Because he's a Christian. Now, that doesn't convince you. That might not be convincing enough. Look a little further. Okay? You know, we're so used to reading the Hagad every year that we read I I speak to myself. We read it by wrote without thinking about the words. And it really is it's terrible because you'll read a poem for the first time, it'll capture you because the language is so beautiful. We but you read because we read it every year. It doesn't capture us. We don't think about it. What? So what do we tell this Ben Russia that Iloha >> you were there? >> He wouldn't have been redeemed. Why are we telling him that? I'm just saying there's so many things to tell like if you would have been there you wouldn't have been redeemed. Why is that what we're telling Ben Russia out of all things? Why is that what we're telling him? So come to the orali and you'll see um the orami says the original version was not ilo if you would have been there. Okay, look at the oral me a little bit is okay. Um, come to the top of 18 and go to the line. Who is Osoish? >> The guy who was on the cross, >> right? And what are the Christians saying? They're saying that there's this redeemer and they're waiting for that's what they call him, the redeemer to redeem them with a second coming. So, he redeemed them once. It wasn't a full redemption. They're waiting for a second coming. We were redeemed, but if he would have been there, we wouldn't have been redeemed. The Rashami is making it clear that the Ben Russia is a child who became a Christian because saying because there's the somewhat they were halfway >> because redemption >> calling him a Christian. He's saying >> he he is that's the language that the Shalomi uses. Now today a Christian seems so out of the box and so different >> but um you're forgetting that Christianity began in our world. Yeshu was a Jew. He was he was he was one of our the apostles were Jews and it seemed likely. The entire movement was a Jewish movement and early on it was really hard to know who was what. Just the way when reform began it wasn't so clear. Now it's clear but things are not very clear in the beginning until the line is in the sand. um [snorts] in the 50s you know conservative I remember when I received from Aron Shakar he told me um and this I think can be recorded promised me you're going to stay from I didn't know what he was talking about um and then I found out that in the 50s from the the boys from all the best yeshivas hinadas wu they most became conservative rabbis how how could someone become conservative rabbi I mean you know that it's a world where there's like a 70 80% % intermarriage rate. How can you do that? Well, in the ' 50s, the intermarriage rate was 2%. It just wasn't an issue. In the 50s, conservative Judaism had structure. Now, they worked with it. They created, you know, their own hala. Um, they created their own hala. They said, "Oh, you're allowed to drive chabas, but but they'll say that we do the same with chabask." They they play it. Eventually, it failed. But in the 50s, people didn't see it failing yet. And um many Shivas stopped giving um um um they wanted nothing to do with it because it just led bad places um things now they're clearly drawn. Christianity things weren't clearly drawn either you know initially their Shabas was their day of rest eventually was shifted to Sunday why in different readings I some will even say I I haven't seen documentation that Paul was and he shifted Shabas to Sunday I don't know I haven't seen but it this is you know there are thinkers like I don't know that there's substance to it some >> history you find there's a lot of archaeology digs that they find Christian and Jewish [clears throat] um depictions hand in hand like they found or Right. Partying always came later, >> right? The party came later and and so right now it was within the family. You had a child who opted out and he's really dangerous. Um he's dangerous because the powers the local powers quickly became Christian. [clears throat] They discriminated against Jews. Initially discriminated Christians, then they discriminated against Jews. And who knows what it can do to your family. And so so the harshness in the Hagada is because this child wasn't just not keeping mitzvah. this child was threatening the foundations of your religion and he was a religious missionary. Um the Oshami is absolutely clear about that. Amaz develops this in the article that I bring down in source 19. Now the truth is um actually if you look carefully at the language of the it's clouded is it clouded because you don't want the Christians who had access to that to realize that we were criticizing Christianity. Remember sensors, you know, had control over everything Jewish that was produced. They had control of >> I've never heard this before, >> right? Um the printing presses were controlled by Christians. Christian sensors cut things were cut out of the garra. If the gumaras that displeased them, they were all the gar were cut out partly because we were afraid of the senses, partly because the sensors cut it out. The classic terms, you know, the garra melts min and and m it's all mixed together. Initially, there was clear meaning. was a Christian and there were clear lines. We couldn't have that, right? So, it's it's really difficult. So, and the Jews weren't allowed to have printing presses. So, the great Bamboo printing press, right? It sounds like a Jewish name. It was a Christian family and they were printing our swarum and and they were Christians who actually had begun Jews who were working as sensors watching things. So, the language of the might have shifted. But if you look carefully, this um carefully, this um um takes note of something very interesting. Okay. Look at the top of 14. >> Okay. Yeah. Okay. [snorts] Okay. >> Okay. Russia that Russia mentions name and the Russia does not. But if you look Russia does not. But there's something a little bit more interesting when we turn talk about the Russia. What do we say about the Russia? The response back there wouldn't But what does the Russia do? Why do we criticize him? Right? That's the >> is that what it means? How did he take himself out of the clim [snorts] says? But before I show you the mar, I want to show you a gamaran gitten rash. A garam garan gon that you probably know, but I want you to think about now. The gar there talks about and this could have happened about the atrocities that occurred during the second bas mdash. So we're told that tus goes into the kach kadeshim. He takes a woman of ill repreute. He violates her in the kach kadeshim which was actually a normal religious practice, right? fertility cults copulating inside a temple was normal. So it to us it might >> right but they took their rights into our temple they were pagans right so they cross reference the pagan world was actually a little bit more accommodating >> so he wasn't doing it to belittle us >> I'm not sure but I'm not saying that he wasn't could be he was but I I think it's important just to bring fertility rights into the discussion because fertility rights were the norm he was doing it demean us but he's also demeaning himself it's like just to me now >> bringing in the other religion >> or he's bringing the other religion fertility cult this was a world where there was no fertility children died in mortality is 50%. crops failed, entire countries died, right? There was a crop failure, you just died, right? You couldn't, you know, live an imported leaven, right? So, um, fertility cults were normally you go to the temple, you had a relationship with a priest and that made the land fertile acts of fertility. So, it might have been a religious right. I don't know. I'm not I um and and again, the more we learn, the less you'll know because I am gradually and I know less and less about more and more until I know um nothing about everything. So I'm just mentioning that as a possible rationale but I it may have been simply about degrading and then what does he do? It tells you that he stabbed the pro and the pro was stam and what does the gumar sayatmo he thought he killed himself now why did he think he killed himself he thought he killed >> that's what Rashi says the simple reading is rashi says he thought he killed right that he that he was able to violate au of course he can't >> but in the mind of a pagan pagans are are children right that's what they think like children god is down here so god is the temple you stab the pro you killed god >> well why does the garamaru use the term atmo instead of harur >> he thought he was gone maybe >> or because as you cuz because you don't want to >> he stabbed >> he stabbed the baras because you don't want to announce that you don't want to say that killed you know You know, so you say but Rashi says it's a kino because that's the way the garam always writes that way right when we talk about someone who hates somebody it's someone who loves somebody when we talk about you know it's it's right that's that's that's the way we talk right that's the language of the carries of >> excellent carries with so look at 15 casava haragasat where he stabbed her because he thought he killed himself didn't think he killed himself He thought and in his pagan mind, his limited pagan mind, if he has a physical relationship with his own zone inside the inside, it'll bring fertility to his world. Maybe if he stabs the Barus, he kills the Jewish god and his god remains because the Jewish god is small because there are lots of gods. There's the tree god and the rock god and the temple god and the thunder god and the water god. That's the way they were. Um each each each thing had so he thought that he killed god. So horusmo means he killed the kadesh. When the tells you that the Russia was what does it mean? >> He took God out of the picture >> which means he took the >> so the murderer says that the Russia is really a Christian who has totally um uh totally debased our religion doesn't accept our religion. You're not going to reach him. So the God is telling you you're not going to reach him. just blunt this poison. Limit your conversations. Um I would love to invite if there's a Jew who god forbid becomes uh um Jews for Jesus, I would love to invite him for the sake of make him. But if he's going to be there trying to win my kids over, I mean at a certain point it just doesn't make sense. I'm not going to win him over. He has his identity. This is his whole identity and it's pointless. Now God is telling you just realize it's not going to work and it's dangerous. He might be a grave. He'll report you to the authorities. He'll he'll find issues but this these were religious wars. you know, we we live in relatively civilized times. Um, for all the challenges that we're facing, it's really I I don't know. My wife my wife says I'm naive. I don't think so. It's it's nothing compared to, you know, what Jews have faced historically. Um, but but these were really rough times. Um, the governor could kill without without anything. And so, don't realize the threat just and that was a hard thing for people to realize because these were people's children. to go out of the picture. He's a Christian. You don't need ritual. Um um you're telling him that your your redeemer wouldn't have been redeemed. Wasn't redeemed. He couldn't have facilitated. It's all about responding to a Christian missionary. Now, is the language a little bit vague? It has to be because um once upon a time it was more direct [laughter] but but aragadas are being printed by Christian um printing presses with with anti-semitic sensors. You can't have this out in the open. So >> what's what's the declaring man there? We say there four bottom in the Torah. Obviously the Torah is not only Christian obviously. [laughter] Then we have a midrush right and the midra says the four bottom are whatever these four different categories. Is this an interpretation of that midrash or is this something brand new? >> I think the Torah is giving you a lot of flex. The Torah >> itself didn't do anything. >> No, no, no, no, no. The Torah is I think I think again I can only give you mine. The Torah is pointing out there sort of north, south, east, and west. The Torah is sort of a vague template, which it is for many different things as well. I don't want to go into that's a discussion to itself. Maybe we'll discuss that once. But the Torah is a vague template. It says there's north, south, east, west. They are bright kids and not bright kids. They are kids. >> The Torah says this in the Torah or even >> the Torah talks about four four components, you know. Um, a lot of my kids >> the Torah says that or the mid mid and the midish isn't even saying that it's a Torah. It's not [laughter] um I'm going to shift discussions that might put it in perspective. My kids um a lot of them have bought into this book any like personality types. Do you know seven types, eight types? Um, did anyone know about these personality types? Well, so you know, some of my kids are really into this. Um, one of them is is going to be pursuing a side. So, he really is. He knows what he's doing. He says it's absolutely true, Daddy. It's eventually it's going to um and he diagnosed all the members of the family. Each you're you're a two plus four, you're a three plus five. Do any of you know what you any of you have kids who are doing this to you? Okay. Well, well, you'll get there one day. Um, then your grandkids will do it to you cuz it's a thing. Um, so the T's telling you there are four components to the p human personality. When you deal with your children, there are the brighter ones and the less bright ones. There were the rule followers and the not rule follows. And remember to make your work. That's all the Torah is telling you. There's a there's a man that was written that sort of created a template for then that spoke about challenges that people were dealing with then. Is it so relevant now? Maybe not. Okay. >> And maybe that's why the language changed. I I don't think any of this is about going back to the Torah, but I think what's what's extraordinary is is that what they were dealing with then and how it seeps into our and how it was covered over the mid of the based on what they were doing in their own period. Yeah, I think on the midright right >> well is that right? It's it's like a god no I'm saying you wouldn't call the >> right right so you know madrashic discussions that take place within gamar called the god the madrashk discussions but the same some madrash as early as gamarra meda so they they really have the same you know standing in terms of um authenticity or in terms of antiquity so it's really really critical >> whether read the midress based on its own million >> right right going on at that time >> right right but again I think I think you know things have changed I'm really I mean again I'm I'm at the tail end. My youngest is 16. Um I've really tr is hard because the schools have made things really black and white. Um I don't I don't I yeah I don't think it's good. I mean whatever everyone chooses their own system. There's safety in black and white because things are clear but life isn't clear anyway. And anyway we're supposed to be you know intellectual people and that that's always been our motif. and the black and white is is taking that away. Um it's really intellectualism is not what our community is I [snorts] mean there's ritualistic learning but intellectualism is just not where our community's efforts are going um um for better or worse. um intellectualism is is that the Torah talks about you know different components to to children and recognize that and here there is your shami talking about you know situations that arose then I don't think the Ben that is the challenge we have today but I but just to sort of bring proof to this um there's proof here the ideas again no mazak it's his primary idea there's an earlier how God that develops this also and the language if you look at it um um loyal Um, it's the air mak. It's >> who b who wrote that line 20? You did that or >> I did. I did. Okay. Yeah. So then that's really again I'm I I add a little point. I I I put it into Hebrew to make it look a little bit more real because the ideas are so out of the box. So I I I do Hebrew even though I know the the community wants English, but it doesn't make a difference. It's it's sort of a modern Heb box anyway. But but I just we got to keep it realistic because you know I I you know I give in some places where people get all nervous if so sheets have English. So >> I want to say something. Um it's interesting you use the terminology they use as it's as in you >> um when a person does have a >> so they have an is a part of Hashem that's belonging to them >> and when you're saying that no he is not so you're cutting your soul off from the >> so you're not part of that. So in that aspect, if one was going to be a Christian, then that's essentially what you're doing. You're cutting yourself, right? >> So you're cut off from Hashem. It's interesting why they use the word atma. >> Yeah. Interesting. That's interesting motif. Now, let me sort of cement this by sharing a totally different idea because the closing um title of the the closing section of the title was the carbon pes and the cross. Now, what in the world does the garban have to do with the cross? So, believe it or not, a lot. Okay, I want to show you how um um um how [clears throat] [cough] it's okay. [laughter] It's okay. Uh how the carbon pesk was roasted in the ancient world. I want to show you that the method in which it was roasted changed. Again, it's foreign to us. We don't bring a carbon pes. We don't roast it. But how is the carbon pesk roasted? >> Was placed on a spit. Right. >> Fire. Yeah. Now, when you see a figure on a [laughter] stick, a spit as a stick, dead being roasted, what does that sort of remind you of? The cross that we have. >> What is a cross? What is the cross about? >> It reminds you of dinner. But again, but what was the cross? We just have a cross. >> He wasn't wasn't burnt, was he? >> He wasn't burnt, >> right? So, what what >> But Romans killed people by crucifying them, right? nailing them into a cross and letting them die in agonizing death. Right? So a figure attached to the cross with the head up, the hands out and the feet down >> evokes yu. Right? >> Now how is the carbon pesk roasted? So let me show you two versions of how it was roasted. How it was roasted initially before the rise of Christianity and how it was roasted after later after the rise of Christianity. Okay. So let's see this. Okay. Okay. So the page would be um 23. Okay. A specific type of um wooden um stick. It's head up, right? >> Or you see like a roasting hot today. You see it? You know >> what? Rotate. I don't think they rotate it then. >> No, but I'm saying you see it today, >> right? So >> the apple. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Right. So you would put it from the You need the animal to be supported, right? It seems that they actually roasted it head all the way up, maybe feet on the side. There was a stick. The bottom of the stick had a um section that stretched out so that the animal wouldn't slide off the stick. The animal would remain on the stick. >> The the the rod would go through the mouth and cut out the anus or something >> and the anus, right? You probably wanted not a very large fire. Fire was expensive, right? Wood wasn't was been at a premium. So, if the animal is roasted up with its head up >> and it's to prevent it from falling down at the bottom of the stick, you would have a um Right. You would have >> You mean No, that's to me this sounds like a schwarma stain. >> It would a little bit like a schwarma stand, but you would have the animal resting on the stick, >> head up, anus down. You would have a stick out, >> right? Hands and legs out. You would have a stick with a little bit of a protrusion to prevent the animal from sliding off. So it's clear you place into the mouth all the way to the bottom where you had a section that was broad so the animal wouldn't slide off which meant the head was up the posterior let's use the word posterior >> upside down cross >> it was like a person sort of like the figure of a person >> not down at all >> not upside down >> piece would fall down >> right so the head was up >> the um the Oh, >> the rods were rod this way with the bottom >> right upside down. >> Right. So, I'm not sure that the protrusion and bottom protruded so much. >> Um, maybe just a little you might not even noticed it because it supported the bottom of the animal. But what you did was you had a picture of of an animal that sort of seemed like a human on a cross, head up. Again, an animal doesn't have hands and feet the way humans have. So [snorts] the legs were all on one side, but the head was up, which the truth is is a more dignified way of roasting it, right? That's, you know, it is a mitzvah. You want to do it in in the most dignified way. >> But I don't know if they did that. They didn't because they wanted a smaller fire. So if the animal is with the head up and the posterior down, you can have relatively small fire that reaches >> more dignified than the alternative. The alternative is is the anus up and the head down posterior up which we didn't do initially. Look at the Mishna. Okay. You would place the stick through the mouth all the way until the section with the um that jutted out reached the animal's posterior and that would support the animal. So the head would be roasted up. At a certain point in time, we changed the method of roasting. Okay. Um, look at um the 26. Look at 26. Mhm. >> You you roast the animal placing the stick from the posterior all the way up to the mouth, which meant that the support was on the mouth, which meant the animal was roasted upside down, head down. Why did a change like this happen? I mean, again, changes happen for a reason, right? We roasted the animal head up, posterior down, and that worked fine. That's the way it's brought down. We flipped it because of isolation >> in the Mishna by the time the Mishna was put into writing around the year 200. Now let's talk about the growth of Christianity right Christianity as well was was 70 right zer right birth and death right so it's so hard to know hard to know when it took off the council of na when Christianity became the official origin of the Roman of of the Roman Empire I think was 325 325 something like that but it was growing you know for them the mission is around the year 200 Um I I don't know if Christianity was so powerful yet. I don't know. You have to know. But the Talmud Yurali would um right so it in in the 3rd century it really took by 325. It's the official religion of the Mormon Empire. So that's when there's a real shift. >> Now where did Christianity take hold in Israel? It didn't take hold in Bavl. There's no Christianity there. Right? Eventually Islam came there but there was no Christianity. There was different religions. Right? Christianity didn't make its way so far east. So the talmmy looks back at the Mishna and it talks about roasting the pesak. Now you'll tell me the bas was destroyed. People won't bring carbon p anymore. Not so true. There's um the garb about told the sham we bring carbon pes in Rome. There was there was some type of pseudo carbon pes being brought rightly or wrongly after the hbin. The shami is telling you that when you bring the carbon pesak head down. Why are you doing that? This sounds like mentioned before with Lewis >> where because they were bringing the the reefs and and the Christmas trees into the house. So now we don't bring trees into the shore. We bring flowers. >> They're going. Yeah. So the same thing they had that thing with the cross and the issue with the head up. So now we flip our pump upside down. >> They're going to think we're making fun of them. >> Or they were afraid we were making fun of them and they uh um so right. So maybe putting it upside down might might have created problems for us. I don't know. or maybe they clearly were making fun of them >> or or we just don't want to associate with them or but there was a shift of Ysef Tori's is is that the shift was because of Christian influence either because it looked like a christoologgical um act um switching it might be viewed as deriding them which could have created problems. So, but the change is there. Why is >> that it shouldn't look like an Zara >> that [clears throat] it should look like in a way, right? But what's being what Brett is pointing out is that maybe that could have created problems because it might have emerged as us um degrading them. >> Yeah, but yes wasn't a he wasn't a sheep. >> He was a sheep. In their theology, he was the lamb of God. >> Right. >> Oh, they do they call that's interesting. >> Right. Right. So there's um so there's a strong so again what all I can present not again I'm not presenting clarity here I don't have clarity um but I'm presenting is a Mishna that says current was brought one way I'm presenting the rali >> saying that a change happened changes do not happen you know for no reason there are reasons why people do things right um what prompted the change well the growth of Christianity happened a carbon pess head up sort of evokes a cross is the change because we didn't want to be associated with them. We didn't want rituals being confused. I don't know. But you see the guide is telling us you bring your um your trees into the sholes. Don't do it anymore. Right? Because it's a problem. Well, then maybe with the um the rise of Christianity um the the norm became and it might have been bottom up might have been the community itself, not ruling for the community. And it might you know add so many other pieces. You know, Pes is the black of time that really interfaces with Christian um religious rights. You have Easter, you have you have you have the ritual of the fall. Now, you have the ritual of the winter, Christmas and New Year's, but Christmas actually is is a later development. Christmas was a pagan holiday that Christians developed to attract pagans. Christmas is mentioned in the mission. It has nothing to do with Christianity. I think there's that they try to find that he was born on Christmas and Gamalat on New Year's. I don't think there's any basin. I don't I think many Christian scholars will admit to that. Um and Christmas is >> celebrating when he was mama. That's a Jewish thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. So Christmas is really a pagan holiday. They wanted to attract pagans. So they adopted Christmas. Christmas was a pagan holiday because until December 21st, the days get shorter and shorter. After December 21st, you have solstice. The winter days are at their shortest. They start getting longer again. After 3 days, pagans made a holiday because the return of spring and summer. So that's clear. Um the real Christian holiday is Easter time. That really that's the real that's really we where their focus was and that inter intersected with Pak >> you know he was also killed on second night. >> He was killed on the second night of Per was a s >> it was a second night >> the last supper I think was a sed was no second night. It was in Israel. >> Right. >> Now let's bring >> was also killed that day. >> Now let's bring another piece to the puzzle. >> Right. Let's bring another piece to the puzzle. Why isn't the aada part of the seder? >> A >> it's not a just isn't there. Aa is such a large part of our religion. >> What's happening? Why should >> because the defines >> right? >> No but that's because what happened at dam right dam on the doorpost. What does the dam evoke? What did the madrashim tell you? The dam of the aada. I'm just saying it's a very sensible time is born on on on pes >> but and they both evoke the dam of the aada. >> Well, it it makes sense because the whole point of a carbon is that when you bring the carbons you especially is like yeah this could have been you but you're doing >> so let me add a piece to the puzzle. The piece to the puzzle maybe is that we're really concerned about adding the aada. It's their holiday. Their holiday is about the sacrifice of their leader as it is our cross. Um maybe you know you don't want to mix the too much. Maybe >> you're just adding that maybe when they wrote a >> eventually the start playing that role later on, >> right? I mean we add things to the seem so extraneous. Um loving is there things that just don't seem so germanine. The arcade would seem germaine, but it's not. The class last theory is is that we're just living, you know, you live with the society that surrounds you, right? You you're cognizant of that and you work accordingly. [gasps and snorts] Okay, that is the idea. Duour >> and we're ending with a total lack of clarity and the uh >> it's not it's just a theory. It it doesn't even documentation. Tuesday night show is now on hiatus and it will have to face it.