What Happens When You Refuse to Give Up on Someone

And I don't think this is progressive actually believing in children. I think it's actually fundamental to guy. But I guess in the in the world in the wide world of education, this was considered oldfashioned. I went to ask him about particular boy cuz I knew I knew this boy is was very challenging. He so he said to me a very terrible thing and it hurt me. He said to me that boy. >> Hey friends, welcome back. Episode three of permission to believe. This time I sit down with somebody all the way down under from Australia. Rabbi Mahal Gurari. Rabbi Mahari is a venerable mahan, an educator and is known for believing in children and believing in teachers. And we discussed a fascinating perspective on the balance between pushing people yet still believing in them, allowing them space and autonomy yet having strong expectations. A fascinating discussion. I'd love to hear your feedback at the end. So let me know what your thoughts are. Okay, Rabbi Gerari, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me on. >> This this Yeah, I'm excited about this conversation. I know you run an organization called Bina. Uh tell us about that. >> Okay, so currently my my background is education. I taught in the States for a while and when I came to Australia, I kept teaching and I actually ran a high school for 7 years and then I went into adult education. So currently I run something called BINA which is an organization here in Sydney, Australia. Its aim is very simple and very farreaching. It's to bring Jewish wisdom, Jewish learning to any type of person in the Jewish community of Sydney. Meaning there's something for everyone. So our our mission is we keep Torah learning. We keep Jewish learning authentic, but obviously packaged differently for different crowds. Some people like regular original textual learning format like Talmud, Kumash, Jewish law, Alaka and so on. others. I I do a lot of lecturing on personal growth, on relationship, on parenting. >> How do you do that? How do you get people, you know, if you you stick up a sign barbecue or or whatever it is, you know, there's things we try to do to get people in the door. You're just offering raw truth. I mean, you're packaging it in a way that it's meaningful, but but how are you getting people to >> Well, the truth is, I've taken a lot of what I experienced in my years of education. I've been involved in education even post uh being a principal. I do teacher seminars. I still do. Even last week I did one for Melbourne but uh and I do a lot of educational stuff but I took a lot of the educational principles and transferred them to the adult space because children are just little adults in little packages really you know preparing a class structuring a class being welcoming not judgmental and believing in people also plays a very big role in adult education as well. >> What role do you see believing in people playing >> everything it gives them a sense of of I can do this. I I got to believe that with adult education, you know, they both have their challenges. Educating children and high schoolers, you should high school, right? >> Yeah. >> And then educating adults, one of the advantages of adults is nobody's forcing them to be there. So, it's kind of on some level, it's like, okay, I believe you want this because nobody told you to show up. When it comes to a high school student who is there because they're either they're there for because the system requires them to be socially or their parents require them to be um they're they want their degree or diploma a degree or diploma depending on the the type of school. Where do you how do you believe in them? How do you tap in that into that interest into that desire to learn? So, well, it's a very good question, but essentially believing in a child in a classroom means that you walk into the classroom the first day of the year, right? And you and you honestly believe that you have a responsibility to teach and that the children have to learn and you really believe that every child sitting there is capable of learning. Now, it doesn't mean they're capable of learning the same thing at the same time at the same level. That's fine cuz they're different. And if you want, I'll talk a little bit about the concept what we call an education differentiation, which I did a lot of work in in the Jewish study space. But you have to believe that they are not going to sit there the entire year and do one of two things. Either make trouble or just fall asleep and tune out. Why? Not because it's misbehaving, but because you really believe that they can learn. That doesn't mean sometimes you don't have to be firm with them. It doesn't mean you're not of discipline. I'm not from the school of thought that, you know, you have to like sort of be over soft. Structure structure discipline is discipline. There's a way to communicate discipline, of course, and there's a communic there's a way to be firm and loving at the same time, but you've got to actually really believe. In other words, they go together. I mean, I remember times when I was teaching in the classroom and some very what they would call very difficult children where my discipline was structured in a way where I would tell them, I'm not letting you go. I'm not letting you off this because I believe in you and I believe you can learn and I believe you can accomplish. Now we can talk about how you're going to accomplish but and and maybe it's not the same you're not responsible for the same material as everyone else is or maybe you have learning difficulties whatever the case is but you can come out the end of this year having learned because I believe you can. >> What is the grounds for that belief? If a teacher comes into the classroom and he's told by the previous teacher or she's told by the previous teacher, this student, I don't know, or even told by the parents, you know, my child isn't cut out for this or for some reason the child believes about him or herself. I'm not cut out for this. What is the reason why the teacher or the parent or really anybody should believe in this child being capable to learn? >> Well, let's talk from a Jewish, you know, Jewish perspective, a very sort of s simple thing. Hashem gave a mitzvah of which means you shall teach your children Torah and they'll be able to speak and discuss it and therefore ultimately learning Torah as a mitzvah which means everyone is capable of learning Torah. Now not everyone is capable of becoming a great Russia a great head of academy of learning from a Jewish point of view. Not everyone is is going to be a genius. Not everyone is going to be but everyone can learn. Hashem gave us a Torah. The Torah we know is not it's not it's not not it's not exclusive. It's not only for certain people. It was given to everyone. Uh we know that the Ram tells us based on the Gmorrah that when a person is born as soon as a child could speak the parents have to teach him we have a Torah and the Mosh Torah was given to us by Mosher Rabenu from God and it's your inheritance and it belongs to you which means you have access to it. Now you got to figure out what the access means and that's something I learned. If you if you want I can start I can pause here and give you the story the background of how actually very relevant to your to your question. So I high school in high school in uh Australia means seventh grade, right? So I had just started I just started getting into education. I taught for a year in America before I came here. That was really a stop gap. In other words, I was teaching my wife's from Moristan and I was teaching a class there a mifa class because I couldn't get a visa for a year. Australians didn't like South Africans in those years and I had a South African passport and it took me a long time to get a visa. I kind of had already committed to come to Australia and and they needed a teacher and we so we decided we'll we'll um I'll take the job in Morristown so we can be my wife's family for a while and then we'll come to Australia and I actually loved it and even then I sort of there were a couple of kids who found it difficult and I really used to I don't know I just believed in them and I thought no I'm sure we can do this I'm sure they can get there and we did but there was nothing really emphasized in that class the kids were pretty it was a pretty you know normal mainstream sort of class a short small group but I like the teaching. So when I when the opportunity came to teach here in Australia, I took it up and then I was going to get a whole a class of seventh grade coming in from sixth grade which means coming in the end of what they call the elementary coming into high school and I knew that it was a bit of a tough group a tough a bunch of as they say right and I was going to be the one by then I already had a few classes I was building up the high school and I was going to teach you a seven gamura the Talmud which is complex and difficult and so on and I decided I'll go to the principal um who was that a non-Jewish principle he was very old school very old-fashioned um I mean I don't think this is progressive actually believing in children I think it's actually fundamental to Yiddish but I guess in the in the world in the wide world of education this was considered oldfashioned and he I went to ask him about the kids and I asked him about a particular boy cuz I knew I knew this boy is is is very challenging or was very challenging and he so he said to me a very terrible thing and it hurt me he said to me that boy nothing between the ears is that's what he said to me. Um that was like even then it was >> he didn't buy the believe in them thing. >> No no no many examples that he didn't but I don't know why I even checked with him first but that's what he told me. Okay. So the kid comes into my class. I got the I got the hold of the management of the class and I'm learning Gamora and I know I can see this child. He can't write a sentence together. He couldn't even talk a sentence together. When he would try to ask a question or say something it was all over the place. It's very difficult to understand. He was like dyslexic and this graphic and and and like he was just he was all like and obviously and he was a very frustrated type of child. And I'm teaching the children go one day and it was a very complex what we call a sugia very complex section of the Talmud. And suddenly this kid puts up his hand and asked me a question in his confused way. But I got the question and it was a brilliant question. A brilliant question. And I thought to myself, hold on a second. This kid can't write. He can't pass a test. He he can't even normally can't give over anything properly like he's he's supposed to be stupid, right? And so I mean how do you come with that question? So I decided then I didn't have any education. >> Where did that come from? >> Right? That's that's the point. So I decided then I need to understand how children learn or I need to understand anyone learns for that matter. Right? So I took myself off. I enrolled myself in a a course for learning difficulties which I did with another colleague of mine uh from primary school a very very good guy. We did this course. It was a full course all year. It was an eye opener. Absolutely eye opener. Um I started to experiment with bit different things my myself. I then took the course a second year because it was like a follow-up course which you did in the vacation time. It changed my life. What what's the point that I learned? I won't go into all the examples now. You know the point was that there's two things. There's the raw material, right? And there's the processing. So if I have the ability to learn, for example, I can learn something. I can maybe I have like raw material that's actually very very brilliant but I need to package it. So you package it through writing. You package it through reading. You package it through explaining. Right. >> Right. >> Those are processes. They're not the raw material. See here was a child that had learning difficulties. He couldn't read. Couldn't read Kadesh for sure. Not Hebrew was very very difficult for him. He really couldn't write properly. He couldn't get a sentence out properly. And it was very difficult to explain things. But he actually his raw material was brilliant. Above average. Actually above average. So you just had to find the right entry point >> entry point and also then I started one one wasn't only with him but with many many others I started a whole journey of what we call in education differentiation which is finding ways that children could accomplish but they're not necessarily responsible in other words they can all learn they can even all learn the same material but not at the same level and not all the things they have to be responsible for. So for example, when you teach Talmud in Hebrew in Aramaic, normal mainstream teacher would do this, right? At the end of the week, let's all have a test and you are responsible for understanding the discussion of the Talmud, the question, the answer, the analysis, the process. You're also you're also responsible be able to read and translate the Gmorrah, right? And you take a test. And tests, you know, originally are are I mean, traditionally are you give out a paper and you have questions and they write it down. And then I used to also at the end would I would have everyone read for me part of the Talmud and translate and give them the part that was part of the mark and then grade the whole test that way. I learned how to dismantle that and how to break that up into different topics. So this kid for example became he was not responsible for reading the gumra at least in the beginning because he couldn't do it right >> and when I would give a test he was not responsible to write the answers. I would take him aside and and I would tell him tell me the answers the answers on the discussion. He could understand the analysis. He could get the concepts but he couldn't get it out in the same process that everyone else did. Now of course in order to learn you have to know how to read obviously. So he started working on that separately but at least it boosted him and it got him more involved and and he he didn't become a rash shiva but he grew to be a nice committed Jew who goes to Shirim and learns and and and you know he could he could he went to yeshiva he was number of years in Shiva. He has some good experiences in yeshiva and and it was was a whole different world. I I I just think it's beautiful that this boy had a rebi who didn't give up on him, who refused to give up on him despite having a principal who seemed to have given up on him. Um, I I'm curious how at that time you were able to maintain faith in him, especially after hearing what the principal said, and even if what the principal said obviously upset you, which is a great thing, >> but we we do walk into classrooms kind of jaded, like, you know, there's there's we make assessments. We we understand who's or we try to understand who's capable of what, and you didn't let that phase you. Well, I think also um first before we go on, I just want to make one point and that is I actually hate talking about my own stories and about things that I've did. I do >> those are the people we like to hear from. >> I know I do an education cuz I think it's important and I hope I hope we can inspire other people. And then if I wanted to say I always say this at the beginning of a of a teacher seminar where I use a lot of examples of things that worked in my classrooms when I used to teach. I always say I only tell you the stories that worked but I'm a normal human being. Right? So I can't tell you that I I succeeded with all children like that. Right? I tried but I did try that was my aspiration. Um right it's a little bit like ini philosophy in the alterb you know the author of the says that everyone should strive to be a benon right uh which basically means you're in full control of your thoughts speech and actions at all times we don't all get there most of us never get there but we aspire we we go on that journey right >> exactly >> but you're drawn that's your philosophy that's your mindset you have a mindset of do you get there probably not most people don't but at least you you make some inroads, you make some progress. So, I I'll tell you the stories, but I'm telling you the stories that work. So, go back to your question. Um I I part of me probably wanted to prove that principle wrong. So, I didn't like him um for many reasons. But really, what got it going was I had a little bit of this taste in in Maram where I I there was a it was a different type of student, a student that just struggled and I just patiently just would teach him again and explain it to him again. I wouldn't give up on him. So I tasted that concept already and I realized that must be true with everyone. But really it was ignited when he asked me that question and my whole world changed. >> What changed when like what changed did you notice when he had asked that question? >> No I just I I I I just told myself well it's not true that he's stupid. That horrible language of nothing between the ears is completely untrue was false and that somehow he must be clever and he must be able to learn. I mean subsequently when I learned this stuff I realized that there are brilliant people who have learning difficulties. Sometimes there are gifted people of learning difficulties and the two have nothing to do with each other. You've got to be able to find a way for them to express what they're learning, right? I mean, I I I enlarged that and expanded that to lots of different things. For example, I I once taught a class a topic in Jewish history and I gave them I gave them at the end I said, "You need to show me that you've learned." Now, it's possible that not the only way to do that is a test. I'm going to give you a couple of choices. If you want a test, I'll give you one, but I'll give you other ways of doing it, right? And that is um you could team up with a friend or two friends and you can create a play for the classroom. But in that play you got to show me that you know the topic really well. You got to put in expressions. You got to put in facts. You got to put in I gave them criteria and and some of them loved it. Who said you have to take a test? I know that I'm terrible at tests. So right by the way I learned a lot about myself in this journey. >> Right. uh about what what what I'm good at, what I'm not good at, and what what you know what I don't have a bad head, I think, but but there are certain ways of learning that are more difficult than others. >> You know what? One of the things that you're saying that really resonates with me deeply is that you're you seem to be very concerned with the outcome and not so much the strategy. You know, a test is a strategy to prove knowledge, to prove engagement, to prove understanding. And what you're more concerned of is are they learning? And it could be a different strategy. It doesn't have to be the test. The reason why that resonates because in a lot of the work I do in in counseling and believing with people, it's not so much strategizing how are we going to fix this. It's what is the this >> that we even want to get to in the first place. >> Now, I do want to Yeah, that's true. And I do want to point out that, you know, I do I say this to teachers every time I give a seminar. There is a goal. I mean, we have a mur we have a tradition, right? Like I'm not suggesting that, for example, a teacher teaches Talmud, goes in and suddenly revamps the whole way he teaches it just so they should know the knowledge. There's value in reading the Gmorra. There's value even in reading from an ancient Gammorra that doesn't have ancient format. I mean that doesn't have vowels and it's actually very difficult to punctuate right and there are kids that can do that. So your goal actually has to be to get as many kids as possible to actually learn in exactly the same way that we've always learned and become and be able to teach gurim and so on and so forth. But you have to be able to recognize those children who can't do that or at least temporarily are struggling with that and give them a different way to do it and give them a different way to still learn. So, how do you balance tradition >> and and um >> I don't want to use the word progression, but >> innovation >> where they're at innovation. There we go. That's the word. >> How do you balance tradition with innovation? Innovation is so you can meet people where they're at. Tradition is so you can bring people where they need to >> where they really come from. And sometimes there's a strong tension. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, the way I did it was I walked to the class my the default position is tradition, right? I want to teach really what I want to do in theory is teach kamura like my great-grandfather's teacher taught him right >> right >> um but I very quickly see you can't do that way right and then you make you make you make allowances you you change strategy there might be a child in the classroom who a simple thing he just needs an art scroll gamona maybe now most teachers will say but that's terrible it's a crouch well yeah for some kids it is some kids won't will sink without it right you need to know you need to be able to to assess that and then of course teachers always ask me >> way just parathetically The art school claims that I've heard this in other places as well that Rael Yashv used to use art scroll the Hebrew art school. >> Okay, good. Yeah, probably maybe >> you like the footnotes and you wanted to prepare him in the >> Yeah. So that's good. That's another that's a that's a bonus. But I mean, you know what I mean in terms of like >> No, I get what you're saying. I just thought it was >> So I used to get questions from children like why he's allowed to have and I'm not. So why you making it easier for so and so but you're not making it easier for me. So I used to give a very simple analogy and I used to talk about this openly with with with classrooms and that is um you all learn differently. You all are capable of learning but you all are different and you all learn differently. Some of you for example this is not my analogy. It's analogy I picked up. Some of you need glasses to see. Some of you don't need glasses to see. And I'm only going to give glasses to those people that actually need it because it'd be pretty silly if you gave glasses to people who don't need them. Right. >> Right. >> And and we can always change it. We can modify it. If you think you're having difficulties, let's I just say to them, if you think this is too difficult for you, we can negotiate. But always remember, I'm part of the negotiating team. So, not necessarily your conclusion to be the one we go with. We're going to we're going to work it out and then we're going to try and we're going to and then we're going to and then we're going to um reassess, >> right? >> My my rule was I'm going to I'm going to ask for you to learn at the level you can and just a bit more than that because you need to push yourself. It's not about making it easy. It's about training them to push us push themselves but pushing themselves in a realistic way. We all have to grow. That's that's what it is. >> It sounds like it's pushing them in the channel of what they are capable of. Correct. Rather than them fighting and having resistance in what they're not capable of. >> Correct. And sometimes >> question before you do that, let me just finish. Sometimes capable of means that they're capable of now that could change. It could change. I mean it depends what the issue is >> which which sounds like a parent or teacher or or anybody really has to constantly uh reassess >> right >> reassess those capabilities >> right >> when you walk into a classroom and the reason why I'm asking you this question is is not just to understand your method but I think this will be revoly to parents to teachers to anybody in any field of of education the first thing that jumps out of usually is the negative is what a student is not capable You know, that's that's usually what a I feel like um maybe I'll get some negative hate mail for this, but I feel like assessment is is code word for what can't you do? Which is fine. You you might need to do that, but how do you prevent that from distracting you from what the student can do? You know, the principal that you mentioned that was a distasteful person was very focused on what this child could not do and totally missed what he could do. >> Yeah. How does somebody walk in, see a child, notice everything he's uncapable of, which is normal, and yet somehow find what he is capable of? How how do you put on those lenses? >> So, I think it's about like I think assessment is a good thing cuz I think actually teacher needs to know what the child can and can't do, but it's got to be based on a belief. I know they're capable. I just need to know how. So, therefore, I need actually to know currently what can they do and what can't they do. Now another point obviously to bear in mind also and also what what we expect from them in terms of because one of the things I was always very very clear with students and I think it's true in life in general right I will allow you to grow and progress in the context of what you are able to and I and I use the word grow with emphasis because you're not going to stay where you are you are going to grow but will grow within your capabilities and within your you know your strengths and weaknesses and so on but but you've got to also allow other people to grow. So for example that's where class management comes into it right. Um there was a time I'll give you an example like so for example there was a time where the child was having real startup difficulties. So like it was just the whole thing was overwhelmed. It wasn't actually that weak. It was more like an emotional thing just overwhelmed you learn kamura for 2 hours. I don't know this I don't. So I kind of made a it was a different type of allowance. I said for the time being you only need to lower the first three lines for the week and the rest the rest of the week actually I don't mind what you do but you can't talk and you can't disturb and you can't go outside. You can go to sleep if you want. You can also listen if you want. And and you know and and by the way sometimes people listen when they don't have to be responsible for it in the test. They actually do listen. They might get half things. They might get ideas. Doesn't matter. It's all learning, right? But you can't disturb but you can't disturb me and you can't disturb others because I have a responsibility to teach. You have a responsibility to learn and everyone here has responsibility to learn. Therefore, you have to facilitate that. So you know that's the but I think it is I think I think you need to know your students. It's you know with it's not hard. You pick them up you pick it up pretty pretty quickly. what um h how have other teachers responded uh to this idea of relentless faith in students when you've uh given seminars and stuff like that? >> So I do get push back sometimes only because like it seems unrealistic. I mean I'm not going to do this now but what I do in these seminars is I actually um give a lot of ideas and tools. It's not that hard. It's actually it's actually much easier than people think. It's just a mindset shift. Because people sometimes say but hold on a second then it's not it's not true because then person gets 90 on a test but it was a test on things that he could he could do right then like how's that work with the rest of the class I said well who cares the rest of the class like like this is this is his journey I mean a very simple thing so for example let's say let's say teaching Talmud and and and a normal student has to know uh all the answers to the question plus he has no translation plus he has to be able to learn to read the gumra inside and he's assessed on all those things Right? So when he gets 90% or 95% on a test, it really means that that he can do all those things. Right? Now, another student I might say, "Look, you really I can see, you know, it's really hard for you. So why don't you why don't you work on just being able to read two lines of the 15 lines we're going to learn this week, right? And that's let's let's say achievable goal and I will so and he will do that. And let's say, you know, there's certain things you can do, you can't do, and I'll I'll I'll I'll arrange the tests accordingly." And there's ways to do that that aren't aren't cumbersome and aren't really that hard. and he also gets 95%. It's true that two 95% means something different and that's fine. What they both have to mean is that you worked hard. Getting between 90 and 100 in a test is hard work and it has to be hard work for every student. But what you're assessed on could be different. >> And what do you do to inspire children to want to work hard? >> I think it's about well you got to try to be inspiring. I guess you got to be inspired as well. You got to be excited about the material. You got to be excited. You got to talk about the value of learning. I mean that's about teaching values is a whole a whole discussion in its own right. But I think also you've got to give them ways of succeeding. Success breeds success. It's my motto. If you can get them just to succeed a little bit, success breeds success, >> right? If they start they'll uh like mitzvah mitzvah. Just light will will lead to more light. You see the light at the end of the tunnel you you end up wanting it more. Um you you mentioned before that what you're teaching to these teachers is kind of a shift a shift in how they view the students so they can believe in them. So they could believe that the students are capable so they can challenge the students. Let's say for our listeners who might not be teachers but parents and we want to believe that our children are capable even though it may seem difficult to see it. You know, you see the our we see our kids at the end of the day, they're tired. They're exhausted. And you know, homework is uh some parents see homework as the punishment for the parents for for sending their kid. I'm kidding. But h how do we >> by the way, I'm not such a big huge believer in homework either. I don't know if it actually good. >> Unless it's given in a particular way, but anyways, >> but but the idea is how do how would I as a parent make that paradigm shift? >> So, I have I'm a parent as well and I have to do it as a parent. not so much in terms of um academics but in terms of of of of you know emotionally or dis you know disciplined way or whatever the case might be you know look I think it works like this you have a certain default you have certain values and that's okay and those values I'm talking about like in Judaism and Yiddish guy we have values and you want our children to be to grow up in a certain way not always do that does it always work out that way as we know but you still have to start with those values right this is what we call it in other words to to begin with the these are the values now however you need to know that how do you implement those values, how those values are going to be expressed might differ right from one child to another. The problem both in teaching and in um parenting is this and I say to parents a lot of times actually parenting is the greatest experience of personal growth. Avoid the with yourself. Why is that? because you suddenly realize that it's actually not about you. Right? By the way, this is true in all relationships really, but but particularly with parents and children. And how you respond to things is are you responding by broadcasting what's bothering you or are you responding what's good for the child. This is not easy. You don't always do it correctly and that's fine. Human beings, we all make mistakes. But certainly that has to be what we strive for and what we aspire to. What's good for this child? Now there are many many parenting tech techniques how to inspire children to build a home of love. There has to be also discipline. There has to be encouragement. >> What you're saying is more fundamental. It's not just a tool. It's it's a mindset shift in in seeing not getting stuck in our own vision for the child but believing >> believing. Yeah. So when I say not >> we have to have some sort of vision obviously because we have >> right no so we so we must be completely dedicated to our vision in terms of tora mitzvah in terms of them growing in terms of them learning in terms of them being a mench in terms of behaving properly those are values and those values we have to talk about and but how you implement those values and how you encourage people to those values and at what level those children will reach those values. In other words, for me, for example, as a parent, when there was a test in in in school, our motto, and I learned this from my father really that my my motto my motto was always if you don't try hard, I will be upset. If you try hard, I will be happy. And then I don't care about your mark. But if you if I know you actually tried, you know, that teacher is not doing all the differentiation things that we doing. Whatever the case is, I don't mind if I know and you can demonstrate to me that you actually tried because you ga trying is something that every human being can do if they have the right mindset, right? So, it's not about the the there's two cups of self-esteems. There's a wrong one and a good one. The wrong self-esteem is like, you know, you're good the way you are, everything is fine. No, it's not like that. We actually all have weaknesses. We all have areas to grow in and we all have to work hard and we have to improve. That's part of being human. It's part of being a Yid for sure. But we have different areas of strengths and weaknesses and if I know you're trying, I'm good. >> And how does a parent know, you know, if we're not following objective marks and we're also not taking the other extreme where you're good you the way you are, you have to you got to work hard. Is there any way to know? Is there any way to inspire that? It's it's a very fluid kind of gray area. >> Incredibly fluid. But I think most parents if they try, they're in touch with their kids and they know differences between children and they know, right? I mean, you know, I mean, obviously there's lots of techniques and lots of parenting ideas, etc. We're not going to go through a whole parenting course now, I imagine, but but I mean, it's about Yeah. And I think parents should learn, parents should seek parenting class. That's what I did. I used to be fascinated with parenting courses when I was first a parent. Um, and I learned a lot. I learned a lot from parenting experts. Um, and I tried to implement as much as I can. But, you know, there was children there were children that were easier than others and that's how works. Um, sometimes the children are more difficult come out the best. Like they come they're unbelievable. If if you if you get them through the path, they're actually amazing. I mean like and uh you know they they yeah it's just it's incredible. But but but you know in the secular literature there's something called the growth mindset versus the fixed mindset. Um I slipped my mind who's who's the expert on this? I forgot who it is but but that's what it is. It's about ourselves having a growth mindset. is about instilling in our children the idea of growth mindset. And that it's okay to make mistakes as long as you want to grow. Failing is okay cuz failing is a tool of growth. Fail when you fail. What do you learn from that? What's the lesson from that? And by the way, some of those messages can be communicated. Obviously, there always has to be love in the home. That's the foundation. But some of those messages can be communicated quite firmly as long as they're not communicated aggressively. There's a very big difference. >> How would you draw the line? >> Sorry. How would you draw the line between aggression versus >> tone of voice, not putting the other person down? parenting. Rabbi Tuski has this beautiful little story where he as a child his father was a kidic rabbi and he was a chess prog and the and he once played chess on Rashashana with a guest and his father summoned him to his office and said you played chess and he said you think that was appropriate in rashana rash is a lot of people are very careful they don't waste time they don't he's trying to was a pretty clear message and he got the message was communicated firmly but not aggressively didn't put the child down in the country the message was I expect from you more and then the punchline of the story was that just before he left the study his father study his father winked at him and said but you did win the game right in other words it's not your chess I don't care I care about your chess it's great that you you're good at chess and it's wonderful Rashashan is not the time to play chess very different message right so >> it's still showing value in in in the child or in the person >> correct correct >> and then when children grow up some things don't work out it needs to change course sometimes You need to know how to change course when you need to. And that's a whole different a different discussion. But it's comes back as I said before about personal growth. It's not about me. It's about the values that that are correct that I have that I want to instill, but it's about the child. What's the best way to get the child in line with those values? It's not about me being proud that my my child always gets the prize at the end of the year for excellence in I don't know what. It's not about me, >> right? And and to the to the working parent who is busy between parenting, between getting their kids to school, between getting home from work and being exhausted and hopefully sitting on the couch with their own like h how do we maintain that growth mindset? How do we remaintain how do we become inspired so we could see children the way we'd want to be seen? >> Look, it's a tough world and priorities conflict with each other and it's very very difficult. But somehow we have to make space. We have to spend time with our children and we have to know what we can do to do that. I'm not suggesting anyone shouldn't learn Ramadan. God forbid and and someone shouldn't learn cuz you know the things we have to do we have to do and we have to find time to do it. We have to work out how to do it. But I think you know we sometimes a time management issue which we have to get some advice on I suppose but and but but we have to know that certain things are hugely important spending time with children meals together with children but it's also how we have those meals. It's not always a matter of time. It's about a a focus and interest. And it's also about not about you know it's not about being dismissive. Sometimes child can come and I really don't have any time. So I can say you know not now or like I don't have time now you know or I can say you know I really actually want to hear this just right now. I'm really attending something urgent. I will make a time to listen later on. It's a very different message. Right. >> Right. And then following through. um h how have you felt like these kinds of things have applied in the realm of adult education? So I you know I think it's the same thing like first of all it's about respect right um every relationship at the end of the day foundation is about valuing the other person now respect means different things in different relationships I always like to say there's you know there's cuz I don't believe in this sort of the modern thing where your child is your friend your child is not your friend you are the authority and you have to your job is to guide them and and to lead them not to but the prov the ethics of the father still tell us tells us that doesn't talk about a child of a parent but it talks about a student same same idea your student is not friend, but you have to you have to respect your student. That's what the prick says, right? Respect doesn't mean listening to them. Respect doesn't mean you know that whatever they say goes. Respect means you value them and you send a message that you value them. I think the same thing happens in adult education. You you value people. You value their questions. You give them time. You notice when they didn't come when they didn't come for a few weeks, you call them up and you say like, "Haven't seen you for a while. Is everything okay?" Um you take their suggestions. You take their feedback. Um right. and and we try not to be insecure. Um I I I have a you know I remember once when you you got to read the audience like you got you got to read the people I always say right uh I I I was once you know I I do a different my Thursday morning class I do a different topic each term once I tried something a bit different and it was it was about gut gam whatever and one woman told me she's doesn't like it and then I got the feeling that everyone's kind of falling asleep they didn't like that style so you read the audience I thought it was a great idea but it obviously wasn't >> right so so you would say respect is being sensitive to their needs to their interests >> and also knowing knowing where they up to knowing what works like again it's always got to be authentically again it goes back to what I said before about you know by teaching my goal would I mean I'd love it if every year walk through the door here and we could open up a gumar and just learn it would be fantastic but not every year can and not every year wants to and not everybody is has that background no judgment on them it's just the way this >> right >> so we teach them differently we teach them ideas from toy now you have to be it always has to be clear that what you teaching is absolutely authentic and that it's Torah based and the Torah would say it's legitimate concept idea. How you present it is different. You've got to read, you know, is important. You can't change all the all those things are critically important cuz and I might not sound like it. I'm a very very big traditionalist is I believe is is a cornerstone of Yiddish. No, I I I think that's incredible. And I to to me being a traditionalist and not trying to to modify everything I see in my worldview goes hand in hand with believing in people because you believe that they're capable. >> Okay. >> That you don't need to change truth for them. You don't need to modify truth >> temporarily or maybe not temporarily. Sometimes you have to >> well you might you might modify the strategy, >> right? The strategy, the packaging, the expression of it kind of thing. But but the ultimate truth is is going to be the same by everybody which boils down to being like you're saying being very sensitive to what that student needs and and where would where do you if I may ask where do you draw your inspiration from to be able to maintain that uh perspective in other words we learn we're going to fra whatever it is we we're inspired we know that that there's it's not just about what we're teaching it's about who we're but how do we m how do you maintain inspired like What do you learn? What do you Who do you >> So the bottom line, right? I mean, look, you know, I've learned I've heard from many educators and learned from them and different inspiring people and so on. I'm also inspired by the people I teach. By the way, when I I wanted to bring this in before we talked about, you know, the difficulty of people that hear these seminars and stuff. Many many have made very easily made the mind shift and I've got a lot of feedback of people that have used this and they said it's amazing. Right? But at the end of the day, I think the inspiration for me comes from the Reb and the Reb's Torah, the Reb's teaching. Because you know what you see in the Reb is like this, right? You see an unbending and uncompromising dedication to truth. Amazingly so. And yet the unbelievable love for every without compromising the truth. And in fact, people always talk about the love of Reba and how non-judgmental he was and how he tolerated and embraced every single person. True. It's all true. At the same time, I've never met a more demanding person. You tell me one video of a person going to dollars and saying something to having a discussion. I'm not saying just getting a dollar with a bra. I'm saying actually introducing himself and not coming away with with with good homework. Right. There was never I don't believe there's ever been a time where the doesn't give a person something to do. >> No, for sure. I think of Kesh Reb's letters where >> every every single one like boom. >> Every single one is just not sugarcoated. It just says >> not at all. But when you watch a video for example of how the interaction the message is very important the message the message is clear. I see you more better than you see yourself. I see you on the sh I see your potential. I see your capabilities and that's why I'm demanding. You can you can keep a mitzvah. I know I know I see you. You can do a mitzvah. You put on you you put on 200 people to fill in. I I know you're capable of more. Why 200? Why not 400? >> Wow. >> And that's what was done. But it came from an unbelievable Israel. It came from an incredible place of love. And when it comes praise of Allah, people receive it. >> Um, Rabbi Gari, let me just one I know we're running short on time, but I want to ask you one more question. If you have that parent or even teacher or or Balabas or whatever it is, who is either unfamiliar with the Rebra or has gone through yeshiva, has gone through the system, but it's been a while. you know, they've they've been working and they've been, you know, hopefully keeping up with and Rama, but but haven't been learning seriously and they wanted to to develop this perspective, the Reb's view on being able to see the value in people at the same time being able to challenge it because we believe them. Where would you think the starting point might be? >> I mean, first of all, to to be in touch with the Reb's prayer, you have to learn. That's number one. And if someone doesn't have amount of time or doesn't want to go so deeply and doesn't have that capacity, look at the volume 1 to four is a very very good start. But I think together it has to be the reb's letters. >> Yeah. Igor. >> The igress. Yeah. >> And what do you see? >> English letters, Hebrew letters, they're all the same. >> What do you see in those letters that when you learn them? What shift do you find? >> Well, I mean, you have to read a lot to get a picture, right? So, everyone every letter maps is is is a different piece of the puzzle. But overall, you get the Reb's absolute belief in every single person. I mean I don't know how old you are but if you if you you know I remember I remember the reb saying these things and you can now hear it in recording and videos for example when you listen to the reban for example and he talks about right it wasn't a project you know I want you before pes to go out and give mats out no the way the reb would say it is everyone has to go give mats out because there should not be one Jew left in the world that doesn't have matzah that was the that was the tone that was the in other words every yeith can do a mitzvah you get that at the same time you get that I was demanding aspect and because every duke can do a mitzvah right you get it particularly from the letters actually that it was very very demanding and by the way we know that the closer someone was to the rebba the more the more the more demanding it was right like I know you're close up I'm not going to sugar coach you sort of you know toim the reb actually didn't uh smile that much to it was like come on just get the job done right because they could take it the reb knew who could take >> right knowing what your tummy can be >> exactly In other words, that everyone could take something, everyone could take a demand, everyone could grow, everyone can progress, right? And at the same time, some people need a bit softer than others. And that's it's it depends on the person. Depends on the person. But it's it's learning the igress also watching a lot of, you know, on on living Torah, there's some amazing amazing encounters where you see both the love and the demanding and you see how they come together. Also, when you learn the rebikas, you learn something else. You learn the concept of B. I know people are get scared when they hear that term sometimes today. But >> I was gonna ask you how how uh how do you package bittle because that's a hard thing to >> Well, we need we need another podcast for that. >> Okay, we'll have to do you put a picture is very important our center become nullified. >> It is it is a very big subject on the contrary. So very very briefly B is not negative. Ble is on the contrary I don't exist as an independent egocentric person. I'm actually it starts with understanding that actually I'm I'm really nothing independently and yet Hashem wants me to accomplish and he gave me the capabilities and my has godliness in it. It's it's it's a which is infinite. >> So so so real quickly if >> but it's not about me it's about >> if we were to learn a and develop those bits lenses what would we be seeing in other people in our students and our friends and our spouses? >> No we wouldn't be seeing bad we would say and also we wouldn't be >> what would we be seeing? Well, I mean part of like let's put put it back into the into the parenting and and and and teaching aspect, right? You walk in and a child or a teenager, right? I'll give you an example, right? I always say this about teenagers. Teenagers can really lash out sometimes at parents, right? 13-year-old, you know, you didn't make me lunch. I hate you. The worst parent ever throws a tantrum. The whole house is in chaos. Right now, without BL, you become very affected. Someone just screamed at you. You become very, very angry. You start lashing back. takes you three days to even look at that kid anymore. Right? The bit the b is this is not about me. Now doesn't mean I'm going to tolerate that. I'm not going to tolerate as a parent. I don't tolerate but it's not about me. >> But it's not about you being offended. It's just about being >> it's about because it's not good for that child to be they will become a when they grow up and it's not >> that's the mindset that it's about >> and therefore I'm going to figure out and by the way it means next I can I can wait to have a calm time. I can pull that child when it's effective. Timing is very important. I can I can I can pull him aside. I can say listen that is really not acceptable depends how you say it also I can expect more from the person and also the next morning when that child comes down as if nothing happened I can give him a hug why cuz not about me I don't want to give him a hug I want actually punch him in the face but that's my shabam that's that's that's a part of me that's not bottle but at least if we apply if we think of ble at least bit is so important and the more we learn about and by the way is full of b at the most extreme levels every third you learn is about bits it's unbelievable >> I think it's beautiful to see the practical application of of bit in parenting. >> I mean, look, the practical has to be in everything, right? It's about >> Yeah. Yeah. But >> it's about also, you know, nowadays people like want to connect to mitzvah that feel good and it's easier for them and talk to them. You know, it's not about you. It's not about what you like, what you don't like. It's the mitzvah. You got to do it and finish. Obviously, you got to try build up an enthusiasm. Baseline is the is anyway bit is a big subject. If it ever falls into the >> the the definition of the podcast, I'm happy to come back and talk about >> No, thank you. Maybe we'll do a part two. Rabbi Gari, thank you so much for your wisdom and for your time and uh >> my pleasure and lots of >> Amen. Thank you. >> Thank you so much for joining me and Rabbi Gerari on this podcast. To me, what really stuck out was the balance between Rabbi Guari's ability to believe that people are capable, have strong expectations, care about their academic success, yet at the same time balance that with caring about them. respecting them and not turning their identity into academia, but believing that they're capable and letting their academia be a strong part of that. To me, that's a very tough balance to walk, but Rabari did it. He empowers up other people to do it. I'd love to hear what you learned from this. And if you have any future guest suggestions, let us know in the comment section. Thanks guys.