What Happens When You Believe in Difficult Children – ft. R' Zalmy Kudan

I was at a staff meeting a few years ago and we had a real problem in our school which was strongly affecting our teachers and it was a real problem and it was my fault and the meeting was called the two teachers were there myself and the two other administrators my bosses and uh the meeting was progressing and it took two hours and we literally went through every single time that this problem reared its ugly head and the effect that it had and we said okay we're going to give it a one month trial and then we're going and meet back and see if it makes a difference. And one teacher says, "Thank you." And the other one says, "Thank you." But >> hey guys, thank you for tuning in to our new podcast, Permission to Believe. We'll explore the real transformative power of believing in people. I had a conversation with Rabbi Zmi Kudan, a world-class educator, and we explored what it really means to believe in other people, even when it's difficult, and the real power that lies within our own transformation, our own perspective shift in how we view people. And I'm super excited to share this with you. Quick idea on the para that pertains to the idea of believing in people. Mosha Rabenu is rebuking the Jewish people. Rashi tells us that he's rebuking the people covertly. It's quiet. It's not public. These are the things that Moshe spoke. A curious statement because when Hashem had first called upon Moshe in to lead the Jewish people, Moshe was hesitant. And Mosha said, "I'm not a man of words." And now it says these are the words that he had spoke. The explains that at first Mosa didn't believe that his words would resonate with the people that what he would say to them would actually make a difference. Would they actually listen to them? Was he the type of person that would be respected by people? Were these the type of people that would respect him? Moshe had his doubts, his reservations, his hesitations. Yet at the end he says these are the words in the context of his critique and the at some point 40 years later Moshe finally believed that his words would actually resonate with the people. What changed perhaps those 40 years of getting to know the Jewish people? Not just diving right in and sharing critique, but getting to know them, getting to understand them, earning their trust, truly believing in them. And now that you truly believe in them and care about them, and Mosha demonstrated his care deeply for them. Now that he truly cares about them and truly believes in them, his words will truly resonate. Sometimes we have to share things that are uncomfortable like moeru. Sometimes we have to speak truth and truth isn't always popular. But let's get to know who we're talking to. Not just the truth we're trying to propagate. The truth that we're trying to share, but let's get to know who we're sharing it with. As the old saying goes, nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care. Okay, enjoy the show. >> Rabbi Kdan, thank you for joining us. pleasure and a privilege and an honor. >> Yeah. I I really appreciate you carving time out of your busy camp day today. Rabbi Kudan, you wear a lot of hats. At least it seems like you wear a lot of hats. >> Yes. >> One of your hats is camp. Another hat that you wear that I'm personally familiar with. Maybe we'll get into that soon. Is your camp your your camp guru hat. Besides being a camp director locally, you're you're a I don't know, is that the right word? I I trained about 2,000 staff this summer. So, yeah. >> Wow. At the same time or or >> But you went you ran around you you were where were you? >> Well, we we have a lot of staff who take online on ours.com platform. We have staff that took live trainings uh over Zoom and I went to a lot of camps as well. I still have a few more that I'm on the way to. >> Okay. So, I'm I'm just trying to figure out, at least for our listeners, who you are. You have your camp hat, you have your camp training, camp guru hat. Um, >> I'm a principal of a school, Lamp Plato's Jewish Academy in Oxnard. >> Okay. >> That's what I spend most of my time during the year. >> Okay. >> And um >> and you're a in Santa Barbara and Santa Barbara. >> I like that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> The reason why I mentioned this is because I remember calling you several years ago when I was running a summer camp. Uh I don't know if you remember this call. I was trying to navigate a certain situation I had with some uh head counselors. And you know, it's incredible what we do in in the Kabad world and even beyond the Kabad world. We take lazy young girls or young boys and empower them in situations that require a lot of responsibility, a lot of faith, a lot of trust and a lot of skill >> and a lot of skill, right? And there was something where I felt I don't know I felt I felt stuck and maybe it was in my head whatever it was. because I don't want to give too many details online here and I asked you for advice and you said something which really stuck with me till now like and it's been several years you said if you don't believe in them you have no business hiring them and if you do believe in them you have every business trusting them and I'm like whoa that is wild it it ch it shifted everything right and I at the time I was calling you or texting you, whatever it was, and I'm thinking, "This guy, how do you have the headsp space to believe in people with everything that you do?" I mean, you're wearing all these hats. You're the principal of a school. You're training counselors worldwide. You're a schlak locally to a to a and and community. And you're running your own camp. And I had this kind of epiphany and I I think you'll agree with me that you're not wearing all that many different hats. You're really wearing one hat and using them many different ways. I think that as a of the Reb, we have these to amplify and to communicate and to be the channel through which the Reb's belief in every individual comes through. And I think that if you just watch videos of the Reb interacting with people at the dollar's line, every person, the Reb believes in them more than they believe in themselves. Like to to to a fault almost. Like there's this reformed rabbi out there's this this clip of this reformed rabbi who walks in and to the Reb and the Reb and he tells the Reb like, "I'm a reformed rabbi." Like he's trying to like, you know, >> he's trying he's trying to let him know, don't believe in me. >> Right. Right. And the Reb without missing a beat says, "And how are you going to influence your congregation in more and mitzvah?" >> That is and it's it's incredible. In other words, there this guy's trying to say, "I'm not on your team." And the Reb is like, "Well, how can you be more on my team than you ever thought you could be?" Because I believe that you could have an impact in doing what I know is important for the world and for you. And I think that as it doesn't matter exactly which role we're in, whether we're the director of a staff member, you know, a teenager who's came to dedicate her summer or his summer to a, you know, to be part of that mission and that vision or if we're talking about a camper or talking about a camp parent or a school parent or a child in a school or my own children, right? If I am the Reb's vehicle and ultimately Hashem's vehicle to helping this child, then I have to come with Hashem's belief in this child. Hashem created this child. Hashem chose me as their parent. Hashem chose me as their principal. Hashem chose me as their camp, whatever. And and if Hashem believes in us, who am I to get in the way? Mhm. That >> I remember the the ro saying to us in yeshiva years ago, you think you can't, God says you can. Who do you want me to believe? >> Exactly. Yeah. >> So when you're watching that clip of the reb and there's many more clips and everything. I'm just using that as an example. It's empowering, it's inspiring, but then you have to go back to your day and life gets busy and there's a lot going on. Um, you wake up in the morning and you, you know, you got to hit the ground, you got to hit the ground running with all of your responsibilities as to your own family, to your community, to the staff that you train and everything. >> How do you keep that inspiration with you? Um, even, you know, when we're not sitting at a podcast where it's >> conducive to share that idea, but but when all the pressures are hitting, how do you keep that inspiration of my job is to channel the Reb's faith in people? So, um I'm a big believer in exercise. >> What type of exercise? >> All types of exercise. Uh practicing. And >> okay, >> you I if let's just use physical exercise. If you do 20 push-ups once a month, you're going to see very little progress. And by the time you get past the 10th push-up, you're going to be struggling. But if you do five push-ups a day, your strength, endurance, and overall health is going to improve way more than right because of the regular and consistent progress. And I think that's where in life we have to we we need to lean into the daily and consistent and neverending commitment to keep practicing these skills. And even if I mess up, which I will because I'm a human being and I forgot to eat breakfast or I didn't drink enough water or my body's deregulated or whatever it is, I didn't get enough sleep. Even if I'm going to mess up, I still need to pick myself up and keep practicing. And like I always tell people, there's only one way to learn how to ride a bike, >> riding a bike. >> You we we could you could watch a 100 podcasts on how to ride a bike. You will not get any better at it. So, >> so I think that's what it's about, you know, practicing the the tools that allow you to express belief and curiosity instead of expectation and judgment. I think that's what it boils down to. >> And where do you personally derive these tools from to practice? Like if I had these tools and I'm willing to I'm committed to practicing these tools, but but where where do you I mean you gave that example of that clip, which I think is is a very clear example, but where I don't think there's any right or wrong answer necessarily. There could be plenty of wrong answers, but but I'm curious where where your go-to is. >> Well, I I think over time, um I I' I've always been fascinated since I was a young child. Uh, I've always been fascinated by how people work and how I could better service people and how I could better communicate to children. I think we need to in our pursuit of excellence, we have to find those simple tools that help us get better at what our goals are. And I, you know, as I was looking to and I was preparing for the year after year of being a counselor in camp and then as a director and a head counselor and trying to train my staff, I read a lot, I learned a lot, I watched a lot, I observed a lot. And even as a small child, you know, I remember my ch my father pointing out things to me as a small child. Uh, you know, once there was two people arguing in Schol and he's like, "Listen to those two people arguing." And I'm like I'm like okay. And I'm like he's like which one is listening to the other one? I'm like neither. He's like aha. I must have been nine 10 years old you know. So I I've always been fascinated by this. And you know I've learned that number one if you have to we have to exercise our muscle. We have to believe in ourselves. We have to be able to see the positive in ourselves. We have to be able not only be able to, but we have to consistently force ourselves to look and acknowledge where we're getting it right. Also, you know, we talk about doing a nephing to process things. We do a great job beating ourselves up and saying what we did wrong every day. But we got to do a much better job of also building those mental pathways that allow us to see ourselves in a positive light. Because if I don't believe in myself, I'm going to have a really hard time believing in other people. Right? That's what the Torah says. You love other people like you love yourself. Well, if your baseline is, I don't really trust myself. I I usually mess up and I'm not so good at this. Well, then how am I ever going to reflect to other people a belief in other people? So, I think that's really an important tool. like that's one space >> that that resonates very deeply with me personally as one of the big things I do now is marriage counseling and one of the questions I like to ask couples is is because the first thing couples they come in and their focus is on where we're getting it wrong what's not working which is what compelled them to come in the first place and I I want to figure out what is working and if I if I say explicitly hey what's working they're going to say nothing they're frustrated at least at that moment um but I always like to ask them. How did you meet? Because they decided to actually get married. They decided to keep this going and there is something that was working at some point. Uh it may have been decades ago or years ago, but it's still there. And like you said, it's it's neurology. It's path brains pathways to the brain and it's you know the spirituality is is timeless. Um if somebody is to take this challenge and highlight the to figure out what is working, where would you say the first place they should look is? >> Uh so my daily exercise for my kam muscle, my daily five push-ups is I write down three things that I did well every day. >> Wow. So it's really concrete >> and who else was helped. And I do it in a log with a date on it. And even if I miss a few days, it's okay. I try to be as consistent as possible and what you see is your brain starts to follow that pathway. You could do it on a Google doc or whatever or a list on your phone. But your brain starts to see day 1, day 2, day three, day 55, day 65, right? And your brain, it really that is a daily exercise that really helps me and I know many others that do it as well. It really helps to start over time. Again, it's not you're not doing 50 push-ups one day and then you're going to lose 30 pounds. That's not how it works. But over time we start to build that other option in the brain. There's not only the highway that I mess up. There's also a new road being formed where I do do I do the right thing as well. >> When you strengthen that kamaya muscle, I love how you call it a muscle. Um I don't know it it I connect with that. But when you work on strengthening that kam muscle, let's say over time getting three things down that are that are working. You write it down. It's concrete. What shift do you see in the outside of yourself and other people as you're as you're progressing internally? >> Okay. And you know, I don't know if we could ever point at oh because I wrote down three things yesterday. That's why I was able to see the positive reason. >> It's hard to quantify that. However, I know that when I'm feeling good, I have a lot more patience for other people. Let's use a physical example. If I'm hydrated, well, let's say if I'm dehydrated, right, and someone steps on my foot, I'm very likely to overreact, right? Because my brain, my hypothalamus thinks I'm dying, god forbid, because I don't have enough water. Someone steps on my foot, I think it's a lethal attack. Get off my foot, you right? And and right, I'm in that zone. But if I'm hydrated and I'm calm and I slept well and I ate breakfast and I'm doing good and someone steps to my foot, I say ouch. They say I'm sorry and I say it's okay, right? And we keep going on life. So I think it's the same thing with interactions with other people. If I see someone, you know, doing say someone says something to me which I could find obnoxious, annoying, frustrating, angering, whatever. And I'm in a If if someone says something to me which I could find frustrating or annoying and I am in a good place then I might choose to you know to you know to say tell me more or what made you say that and and and have that curiosity um which is one of the tools that we want to have is that the way to express belief in a person is curiosity. That that's how you know you believe in someone is if you're being curious when you see something's off, right? as opposed to what what would the interest >> so so expect well let's let's back up a little bit then good >> so if I expect you to come on time and you come 12 minutes late what does that say about you >> about me that I'm late >> yeah you're late and therefore you are >> therefore I am irresponsible >> irresponsible >> or whatever label we put to it right >> right so so if I expect something and you miss that expectation you're a failure whatever that that you failed that expectation and therefore or there's a judgment that comes along with that. So expectations lead to judgments. Belief, if I believe you can come on time because I know you you haven't missed too many flights in your life, you know, >> you'd be joking. >> You can come on time. I I know you can come on time. And then you're 12 minutes late. Do I still believe you can come on time? Of course I do. So instead of judging you, I now become curious as to what happened this morning. [Music] >> That that kind of softens the confrontation as well. >> Well, it's not a confrontation, >> right? >> So So I I I teach in my trainings three curiosity openers, right? I could ask, I'm wondering I'm wondering about this morning, right? And I'm always allowed to wonder. Uh, and so you might say, "Or tell me about this morning." Oh, yeah. It was terrible. My car broke and my babysitter didn't show up and my kids carpool uh cancelled and right. Okay. So, you know, I'm going to come at that conversation very differently then. You know, I was playing solitire and I really couldn't finish the game. You know, I had to finish the game, right? So, okay. And then, um, and the third one is I need your help. >> I need I need your help with something. um I need your help with something which is you know I need help with something you know it's my responsibility to make sure every kid is supervised in school and when there's no teacher in the morning and I don't even get a notification about it I I you know I didn't even know that there was a whole classroom of kids not being supervised um I need your help to make sure this doesn't happen again and so then we're on the same team right I need your help so so those three openers are a way great ways of expressing curiosity I'm wondering tell me and I need your help So we have practical tools of forcing our brain to go into belief mode. It's much easier to believe that you to believe in the other person when you have experience believing in yourself. >> In other words, once you've believed in yourself, you know that belief is possible. >> Correct? >> Right. You start to believe that people people are capable. And we have you do we we do mirror our relationship with other people you know we do off of ourselves >> like the famous teaching of the BMP of what what you say somebody else is in mirror >> um it it sounds like it takes a lot of humility to apply that to somebody else it because usually when it comes to somebody else it it there's an inconvenience attached to it >> right or an offense attached to it. Sometimes it's an emotion and maybe it's not even a practical inconvenience. Sometimes it's just an emotion attached to it and to drop that and to be curious. >> So I I always ask my I always ask my counselors in camp to raise their hand if they know whose job it is to make the kids quiet during davining. And inevitably a bunch of first-time counselors will raise their hand and think that it's their job. And then I asked them, I said, 'Well, are you able to make them quiet? And the answer is that even with duct tape, you can't make them quiet. I can make a lot of noise with duct tape on my mouth, right? So, you can't give responsibility without authority, right? You can't I It can't be my job to make a kid quiet if I can't even do it. So, it has I think this can be applied to everything. I don't have the ability to make someone else upset. >> I'm not in control of that that person's feelings. This was a huge epiphany for me when I learned that nobody else can make me upset. That nobody else can make me frustrated. And every time I'm getting frustrated, it's my choice. Even if it's a subconscious choice, even if it was my choice to not drink enough water that day, >> right? Yeah. But but but but in that truly I have the choice. And and I always ask myself like if if a one if a two-year-old would would have done the same thing, would I have gotten upset? If a 2-year-old would call me fat, >> right? >> Would I be offended? >> Oh, you're such a kitty. >> Which which you're saying to your point that we can use discretion when to be offended, when to not making it a choice. So, so your comment was that it takes a lot of humility to not get offended by other people. So, what I learned is is that I actually am never being offended by other people. I'm always choosing to be offended myself. That makes it a lot easier cuz I'm in control, >> right? And and now you have the autonomy to choose believing in the person or choose whatever it is. >> I'll tell you a story. Okay, here's a story. I was at a staff meeting a few years ago and we had a real problem in our school which was strongly affecting two of our teachers and it was a real problem and it was my fault or under my responsibility to that that problem happened and it was my job to make changes to make sure it corrected and uh the meeting was called. The two teachers were there, myself and the two other administrators, my bosses uh were there as well and uh the meeting was progressing and it took two hours and we literally went through every single example, every single time that this problem reared its ugly head and the effect that it had. And then the the the teachers proposed solutions and we wrote down the solutions and and we we we we problem solved. We went through all the problems and saw if every problem had a solution and they did. And we had this all written down, written up. And we said, "Okay, we're going to give it a one-mon trial and then we're going to meet back and see if it makes a difference." And one teacher says, "Thank you." And the other one says, "Thank you, but" and he stands up as he's about to leave. He says, "But I don't believe that you're actually this is actually going to change anything. It all sounds nice in theory, but I don't actually believe you guys are actually going to do this." >> He didn't believe in the teacher or he didn't believe in the sol. He didn't believe in the staff or the solution. me. This was well this was directed towards me. Now I have been practicing this skill of curiosity instead of judgment, of belief instead of expectation, of uh of being able to look at everybody as a friend. Imagine your best friend would say that to you. Why would he do that? There's obviously he's my friend, right? The Reb says to live as if Msiah came already. When Msiah comes, there's no conflict. There's no there's no jealousy. There's no strife. This is a this is a friend of mine and he's saying something for me. He's trying to help me. And what came out of my mouth after lots of practice was, "Thank you. I know you're only saying that because you believe in our relationship and you are trying to challenge me and it worked. You have just lit a fire under me. I'm going to fight so hard to prove you wrong and to make sure that this happens. Thank you." >> Wow. And and my boss almost had a heart attack. >> He thought you were Did he take Did your boss think you were serious? >> Oh, I was serious. >> No, I know. I know you were serious. I'm just curious how >> serious. >> No, my boss >> because most people wouldn't react that way. >> I mean, you sat down for a two or three hour meeting and you tried to figure >> and everybody would have been fine with me getting offended. Everybody would have understand why I would have been, >> right? Everybody But okay. But but I believe in people. I if I again let's ask ourselves the question if was in the room and somebody said that would he let him would he would he let himself get away with that. No, he would not allow himself to be offended by that. >> You You are on my team no matter what. >> I believe in you and I do believe in him. I really do believe in this and the proof is in the pudding. Barakashem, the next months and years have proven that change did happen. Real change. And the the the point is is that we choose that's my point. We choose He offended me. He didn't. >> It It sounds like it's not just blocking out the offense and trying to put your guard up so you don't get offended. It It's more than that. It's It's not even relevant. Offend, not offend. There's a challenge here. You're accepting it. Like, it's it's not even a mechanism to get offended, to not It sounds like the way you're treating it, which I love, is that the offend or not offend is not even a relevant part of the equation. It's because I get to choose that. So, I would never choose that, >> right? >> I don't want to be offended. >> You, in other words, you're not even choosing to block out or tune out an offense. The offense is not even there because you wouldn't choose it. You're not the type of person who would internalize that. >> Well, it's not coming from there, >> right? >> You can't block it out if it's not coming >> internally, right? At that split second, you you made a decision that you're going to internalize that comment as a challenge, as a motivation. What is the what is the switch there in terms of that interpretation or was it just natural out of so much practice? >> It's practice. So, so um friendship mindset. Okay. And this is a lot of this comes from Izzy Calman in his book Bullies to Buddies, which if any of our listeners uh want to order that, they should get the Torah edition because it's definitely has important stuff in there. But um that that idea that if I choose to treat myself as a friend, the muscle, I also can choose to treat other people like a friend. And if everybody's my friend, no one is can hurt me. So if you punch me and I punch you back, we have a fight, right? But if you punch me and I say, "Wow, you are strong. That hurt." And I give you a compliment. Is there a fight? >> No. >> No. So >> there's value there's strength, right? >> Here's the here's the trick question. Who starts the fight? >> Right? >> So we have always been taught as kids that the first punch starts the fight. >> But it's not true. The first punch is awful. It's evil. Right? even lifting up your hand against someone is called evil. It's a terrible thing to do. Don't do it. Don't punch people. But if someone pudges you, you're the one who gets to choose. Is this going to be a fight or am I going to compliment this guy and walk away? And that power that we have is something that I have really enjoyed getting to use again and again and again. And I I just It's so powerful. If someone You can't And it works the other way also. You can't chase me if I don't run away. >> Wow. C Can you share with me? I I love this. This is like No, this is real gold because this is life-changing. It's radical faith in people, which I I think this world needs more of. Um, I want to ask you for some stories, but before we get there, before I forget, what I'm curious about is you mentioned the friendship mindset, and I'm curious how that works for somebody who's in a position of authority. And I I know authority is a strong word, but at least at least uh at least on paper that but your job is to be in a position of authority to make decisions and to have people follow those decisions as a camp director, as a school principal, and you could be friendly with people and maybe you're going to end up being friends with people, but at the end of the day, you are the you are the final call. You are the authority figure. And for those of our listeners who are the authority figure, how do you balance having the friendship mindset while being in the authority figure? >> I think your Let me just clarify. I think your question is, is there a risk if I'm always treating my employees as a friend that there's going to be some blurred lines in our business relationship? >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, it's a good question. Um I I think the the friendship mindset is not about becoming friends. It's about choosing to respond as a friend. >> Okay. So it's an even not a not a not a position >> and and there is a specific response that I respond. So if if my if my friend comes into my office, if if if an employee comes to office and says Rap, you're not supporting me. You're not doing your job. You're supposed to be the principal here. I never see you. You never observed my classroom. You're a total loser. I hate you. You're you're you're terrible. Right? So, I'm not asking if they're my best friend or not. I am asking, are they saying to this in a friendly way, meaning that they're trying to make the school better, or are they saying to this to me in order to create strife and division amongst our staff? >> And you're going to the former. I'm going to choose the former because I want to believe and I do believe that every teacher in my school wants to have the best school. And I will actually respond with what I call the five-step conversation, which is I believe you want the best for the school. I'm hearing you say a problem and I'm also hearing you talk about my role and the things that seem to have really bothered you about the way I'm behaving. Tell me more and I'll listen more. I'll listen more when once usually I state the belief they're able to lean into that more themselves. They talk about it. Yeah, but you're you're not really coming. You you told me you were to come last week. You didn't come. And then I could say, well, imagine imagine imagine I wasn't here for two weeks and you needed more support from me. What would be your next step? I would WhatsApp you. Okay. Right. Uh I would Okay, great. So the first step is to state the belief I have in the person. The second step is to state without emotion what I observed or heard. The third step is to say tell me and listen. The fourth step is to imagine Msiah is already here and it's a perfect world. And the fifth step is to ask them for a solution. So, um, can I tell another story? >> Yeah. Yeah, please. >> I first of all, before you tell your story, I I just want to point out I I love the application of that Msiah mindset because it's it's literally living Mashiach. If Mashiach was here, things would be peaceful and our conversation would be different. I'd be pulling something different out of you. You'd be pulling something different out of me. You know, I saw from the the Reb about we often see a as a mechanism loving your fellow Jew as a mechanism of fixing the past because the basis was destroyed because of that. And the Reb says it's also a mechanism of living in the future because these relationships are going to be the obvious is going to be in the air and we start living that reality now >> and and the Reb is most recent right the Reb says in little brackets in the 11th chapter there that having this Msiah mindset this frustration over Gulos and this just being sick that Hashem is not where he wants to be the way he wants to be that brings out such a core connection that we can actually have a havoc even on a physical plane which in Tanya it says that the only way to really have true unity is to focus on the soul but the Reb says that now now as we are getting into the Msiah mindset we can even do it in a physical way we can even see someone's insult of my size as a friendship unifying idea >> so so you would say ju just so I understand that that the reb His intention in obviously certainly in a physical way from the from the perspective of the body means in the context of not just spiritual things but in the context of of let's say a working relationship >> the Reb spells it out. The Reb says that >> yeah look in the it's a little bracket says there that yeah the Reb says clearly that nowadays the rules have changed. I mean it's fascinating that the Reba after Tanya was going for seven generations the Reb changed the rule the for now for us now for us now this is the best time to be alive because we're bringing Msiah right so this is an unbelievable opportunity we have to be able to connect >> going back to the exercises you were talking about that's I mean that's consistent with the Reb's idea of opening up our eyes to the gula >> of training ourselves to see something that's already there >> which is aka believing in Yeah. I mean, wow. Without his belief. Without his belief. >> I mean, channeling Yeah. Channeling that channeling that faith. What was that story you were going to share? >> So, kid comes over to me, says, "My counselor hates me." Right. So, uh, you know, my staff members as a kid would have said, "No, he doesn't. He just took you guys out on a late night last night." Right. Okay. So, right, but again, we we we've been practicing, right? So, I said, tell me more, >> right? Curiosity. >> In other words, you're not just dismissing him and saying, you know, you you're taking him seriously. >> I'm curious. I'm curious. I believe that this kid is a soldier of Hashem. He has a piece of God within him. If he's saying that his counselor hates him, there's got to be something good that's got to come out of this. So, I'm not going to get into a fight with him, God willing. That's the plan. So, tell me more. So he says, he says, 'Well, it's not my fault. Everybody was doing it. It's not my fault I have good aim. I said, ' Tell me more about that.' He's like, 'Yeah, everybody was spitting spitballs and mine hit the counselor in the face. I said, oh, okay. So, all right, now we got the story, right? Curiosity pays off a lot. So, uh, so I said, I, you know, I believe that you have a lot of self-control. In fact, being able to shoot a spitball across the room and hit someone in the face, that itself takes a tremendous amount of body awareness and self-control. I believe you could even control yourself when everybody else isn't. But I'm hearing that today you were shooting spitballs. Tell me more. Say, "Yeah, well, I could control myself, but why should I?" I said, "Well, you have great aim. You're going to be speaking to me every day if you shoot spitballs at the counselor, right?" And and imagine that you're a person that everybody knows, right? This is the fifth the fourth step of that five. Imagine you're the guy that everybody knows that even when there's chaos, even when everybody else is losing it, you're a person who always does the right thing. Imagine what type of businessman, Shuliaak, counselor, father you're going to be if you're always if you're able to control yourself and people know that about you. I said, "I want to challenge you to come over to me before the supper time tonight and tell me a time that you controlled yourself when other people weren't." Fine. Anyways, he marches off. Seven minutes later comes running to me. Okay. Everybody was making fun of and I didn't. Okay. Bye. I got to go. And and uh it's amazing what people will do when someone believes in you. >> Wow. >> It's amazing. I I think one of the incredible things about this story is because you believed in him, what was his motivation to exercise self-control in contrast to a classical approach of don't do that, you know, that's not allowed. And you crack down and sirens go off and hand out the citations or else, right? That motivation is Rabbi Zami is watching. Rabbi Kdan is watching me. I better not do this. And the moment you're not watching, there's no longevity. There's there's no over here. It sounds like you tapped into his real interest and exercising something you actually believed he hadn't and got him to see it. >> Yeah. And I mean, you know, if you want a resource for that, uh, Michael Brandwine has an amazing book called Growing Great Qualities in Kids, which is the basic premise is is that as young children, we're very good about teaching them nouns. you know, we point, you know, you know that Patty's phone, right? That's how we teach them words. Um, and the words that we often hear, or at least we heard as young people when they were teaching us words like respect, was, "Hey, that's not respectful." But they weren't actually pointing at the respect. So he has a beautiful way of educating us as parents and adults to find children's good midas, good attributes, good behavior and point at it and say, "Hey, I heard a thank you." That's respectful. >> Interesting. So almost turning the verb into a noun to make it more real. >> Yeah. >> More concrete. >> And and and to be able to point at it. Can Can we? And the more you do that, the more the child sees themselves as being that thing. So, if you the more times you you show a kid, hey, you just cleaned up that puzzle. That was helpful. Hey, you just uh brought the napkin to the table. That was helpful. Hey, you just did this. That was helpful. They're going to start seeing themselves as helpful. They have evidence. >> Wow. Have you ever >> No, that sounds incredible. Um my my question is for those who are listening to this and haven't reached the levels that you've gone got to in terms of having this language of faith down so clearly. In other words, it's not like you've memorized it's just natural for you because it's the way you're seeing things. Um for some of the people watching this, they may, you know, they're inspired by this and they want to begin adapting this point of view. And I'm curious what advice you have for them while they're still kind of in this work in progress working on themselves and trying to be able to believe in people and be more curious and all that. But again, you have dec one might have decades and decades of looking for problems and trying to solve them or trying to cut them down and trying to smash them down instead of believing in the person carrying the problem. What advice would you have for that type of person? >> Okay, three things. Number one, life's a process, not a switch. You're not going to get off of this podcast a changed person and suddenly be great at this. This is something that you will always emit Hashem and myself included. Hopefully, I will get better and better at believing in people and at leaning into that belief and bringing it out in the other people. I want to continue to grow in this area myself as that's number one. Number two, write down three things you did or said well every single day and who else was helped in a log with a date. And don't just think about it, write it down. Because when you write it down, your brain gets triple the amount of process. It sees it, it writes it, and it thinks it. >> Interesting. >> You're getting you're getting a lot of input there. So do it. And it works with your thumbs, too. And uh so >> yes, it has the same impact. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Does it scientifically? >> Well, yeah. You're you're doing different. I mean the fact that you have to confine something to words you know I was reading in where he says in order for his in order for meditation or contemplation to have an emotional impact he says it has to be his buis doesn't have the same impact >> right >> and writing it down makes it concrete you have to put it into very specific words >> yes absolutely so so that so first thing is it's a process not a switch >> okay I like that I like that uh >> notice Notice when you notice when you mess up and say, "Okay, that's that's good. I'm on this process. I I noticed it." That's also good. >> And then also noticing the times you didn't mess up just because you did mess up. >> Yeah, of course. Of course. But even when you mess up, you could write it down as one of the time one of the things you did well today is I realized that I messed up so that I can use that in the future. Okay. All right. Fine. So that's that's number one. Number two is to actually do the exercise of writing down the three things you do well every single day for the rest of your life so that you can continue to always build that self belief and self- loveve so that you can reflect that on others. And number three would be to practice saying I'm wondering before you ask any child or your spouse or >> just the word I'm wondering. >> Add the words I'm wondering before you start. So instead of get out of my seat, I'm wondering if you knew that was my seat. Instead of can I have my seat back, I'm wondering if I could have my seat back. Just that one thing allows for an open conversation. So the so the other person could say the other person could say, "Hey, I um I was actually I was actually in that seat first." >> Wow. >> Right. So, so being able to um being able to just that that one tool I'm wondering just start saying >> it's powerful. I mean it's it's simple but >> first time the first time I came up with this I'm wondering thing was when I was a head counselor in our overnight camp our overnight camp the first year we did it in our kabad house here and um and our uh our staff and everybody was inside the tent and we had gone from 10 campers to 35 campers like a week before camp. We were not ready for it at all. I was the head counselor by default. I get up there and I'm about to give the three rules of camp. Respect, listen the first time, and be where you're meant to be. And as I'm about to say the speech, I'm like, not everybody knows how to say get out of my seat respectfully. >> People don't know what respect means. >> They don't know how to do it. Like, how do you say, I don't want to play this stupid game respectfully or this game is stupid? Like, how do you do that? And it just hit me. I'm like, I'm wondering I'm wondering if you could play something else. I'm wondering if Right. I'm wondering if if I could if if you could sit somewhere else. That's my right. >> So curiosity is almost code word for respect. >> Well, it's one of one of the ways of being >> I mean it's one of the ways to to to express respect. Yeah. Interesting. >> Right. Is to be curious instead of judgmental, right? We would we would all agree that judgmental is not respectful. So what's the alternative? The alternative is curiosive. So as I said this out loud, we had four older Bakarim who were amazing amazing amazing guys. And they literally started making fun of me the entire camp experience. Rabbi Zi, I'm wondering when the supper is going to be ready. Rabbi Zi, I'm wondering if we can have extra Laffy Taffies. Rabbi Zi, I'm wondering. And it became this thing. And guess what happened? The kids started doing it, too. And it was so nice, >> right? It's just more peaceful. I mean, you saw it as ch they thought they were making fun of you. You took it as challenge. Accept it. Right. >> Not even a challenge. It was so nice. It was so nice. It was so nice to hear people saying Rabbi Zi I'm wondering where the lasagna is instead of Rabbi Zi then five hours late for supper. >> Wow that's powerful powerful. >> So so yeah so that those are the three things. It's a process. Write down three things you do well every day and practice I'm wondering that tool is is a great a great intro to being curious. >> That that is very helpful and very concrete. If you were to attribute your I I don't want to say unique ability because it's something everybody has, but it's something that you really practice and and empower others, but if you were to attribute your ability to believe in people in this concrete way that you do, if you were to attribute it to one thing, and maybe it isn't just one thing, but if you were to attribute it to one thing, if you were to choose one, what would it be? Well, I mean, there are so many people who keep believing in me even though I mess up. Um, you know, I know that the Reb believes in me because I learned the Rebikas and I, you know, that that's a knowledge that I have, but you know, my parents, my co-workers, uh, you know, my wife, right? I so having someone believe in you makes it very obvious how important it is to believe in other people and I don't know if everybody's lucky enough to have people who believe in them but I sure hope that the people that we interact with at least have us. >> I love that. I love that. Be be the person uh you could be that person you were missing. Um, I I got to believe that there are a good amount of people that have people believing in them, but don't necessarily notice it or interpret it that way. You have a lot of people that believe in you. You've listed several examples and you also interpret it that way. Um, not everybody does. And I'm curious what you might do and this might benefit our listeners to be able to notice the belief that people have in you. But belief can come in different languages and sometimes we don't interpret it as a belief always. Uh but you do. >> Yeah. I I do think it goes back to the same idea of if I'm self if I'm full of self-doubt and you know self uh bashing and I'm continuously looking at what I did wrong and guilt and all that stuff which is appropriate in its context. But if that's all I'm doing is thinking about all the mistakes I made, I think that it is hard for me to um to look at other people as being also on my side. Um I think that's really what it boils down to. And I that we can learn to love to to see ourselves differently and you know obviously if you need help mash therapist etc. getting over guilt and getting self forgiveness and learning self uh you know worth and all that stuff is a skill and it takes practice and it takes practice and it takes practice and it takes practice. It does not happen automatically. It's not going to happen in a minute. It's not going to happen in a conversation or in a letter to yourself, right? It's it's something that you need to cultivate over time and life is a process. I think I hope everybody including myself will take an extra step today. >> Amazing. Amazing. It sounds like it all boils down to knowing that that reality is there and kind of training ourselves to open our eyes a little bit more. >> Similar to the Reb's idea of opening our eyes to Msiah. It's it's there. It's just >> developing and it's developing the muscle like you said. >> I love it. >> Yeah. Building the muscle. Yeah. >> Amazing. Amazing. Well, Rabbi Kudan, thank you so much for your time and for your insight. >> Absolutely. >> And a privilege and an honor. >> Thank you. We appreciate this.