Marriage Expert: "It's Time To Share EVERY Single Detail With You..."

hey guys so in this upcoming conversation I sit down with my good buddy Rabbi arier gurowitz arier is a marriage coach I myself am a marriage counselor as well and we both unpack the Reb's first mimer Bas lagani T and we discuss its relevance to married life how bsy lagani gives insights in how to make your marriage better take a listen Okay this is it man what's up hey Josh good to be here with you yeah this is awesome this is fun this is gonna be fun I love F bringans like real F bringans like I don't just mean a formal sit out of for Brun with everybody but like we sit down and how is this mimer like real not not just true we know that it's true uh we have that faith we know that philosophically it's true and and we'll learn the concepts and okay it must be true cuz the said it but I but I guess what we're trying to do is how is this relevant and and more particularly how is this relevant to our marriages um if if a minder shapes the way we think not just about our relationship with hasem but actually shapes the way we we talk to other people um I I I think that's that's commentary on how well one may have internalized it how real it is um I I remember a couple years ago I was listening to Manis Freedman um and some sh and kites whatever it is and he mentioned he says you learn a mimer and it doesn't positively influence your relationship with your wife you need to learn the mimer again because it's not just philosophically true it's real and I remember thinking like wow that's beautiful I love it and then the skepticism kicks in like what gives us the right to start interpreting the is mimer in in contexts that are not explicit such as marriage um and especially what gives us the right to do that on YouTube for everybody to see or or or whatever platform you're you're consuming this this uh discussion on um but but I think it is pretty explicit in the mimer basani come to my garden my sister my bride this is in sh hash which is all about marriage and the mid opens up doesn't say to the Garden it says to my garden which my garden implies that's what the M says and say means right rash says b referring to the B of mikash hasm is finally coming in and and being part of this world in a way that's meaningful not just in a way that's that's abstract and that's like a it's like a marriage it is a marriage um our marriage in other words what better what better model of marriage in our own lives is our relationship with Hashem like imagine we treated our spouses with that same sacredness that we had we treat Hashem we dedicate that same time that same Focus yeah um that would be incredible right that's it's uh that's good stuff but what give any Reflections on on this mimr well well let me just respond to what you're saying first I mean about 100% the whole concept of Shir is that this is a whole book of tanak which is dedicated to the it's dedicated to the idea that the relationship between Hashem and the Jewish people is like a marriage and so which whichever one comes first but we have to know what a marriage is so that we can know first of all what our marriage is and second of all what our relationship with hasem is supposed to look like and and Bas just going super deep into certain details of that you know so you want to say one is the muscle one is the nyal um but yeah 100% this is a discussion about marriage whether it's some marriage between you know you and your wife me and my wife all of us and our wives or the marriage between us as a whole as the wife of hem but it's all the same structure it's all the same underlying Concepts I think that's fundamental to the whole thing it's amazing it's amazing uh and I I think in this discussion and this is true not only in context of this mare but it's probably true in context of of the yish Kit's conception of marriage but there's a presupposition here which is that marriage has an inherent sacredness like like why get married um I I I don't yet know what demographic is watching this I assume it's going to be a demographic that's interested about lagani but you never know um there there is a there is a trend not obviously not in the in the world where we're coming from but there is a trend in the broader world that like why get married why not try each other out and date and live together and maybe we'll get married maybe we won't um I was okay I I don't you know those things I like should I be sharing this and it's like too because I already started but when I I I I know this guy he was chatting with with this young lady and she was expecting a child he goes oh wow I didn't know you're married she goes married what so her marriage was not obviously not coming from the firm world but like why would I get married like why is that necessary sure and to him it's like of course you're getting married right there was a generation gap as well but there is this pre supposition that marriage is necessary and we're coming from that premise and it's like how do we create that marriage in a way that's that's meaningful that's beautiful because it's necessary it's needed it's sacred it's not just it's more than just two people deciding to connect it's more than just like a civil union or more than just like roommates that happen to really like each other on the levels right it's it's obviously a much deeper connection and I guess our discussion is essentially how do we manifest that connection yeah I I love the question that you're bringing up of like from a secular perspective like who says like who says that marriage is the way to do this you know um because I I do think that it's something that we often we kind of take it for granted you know like this is what we're used to from society from our parents and our grandparents and you know that seems to have been the structure for many people for a long time so a lot of times we don't question it and I think it's great to question it because that comes by by questioning it and answering the question you come to a much deeper appreciation of yeah why I have this in the first place you know and to me the real answer the real Jewish answer is that you know of course a man and a woman you know have a certain natural uh interest in each other and there's a certain way that God said you know that Hashem said is the way he's envisioning for this to work you know and and to me that's what a Jewish marriage is that that this is we're going to have a relationship in hashem's way in in the structure that Hashem planned out and envisioned you know both on a practical level and a deeper emotional level like like what is this dynamic between us supposed to be like right that's awesome that's awesome I was reading I was just GNA when we learned the T about sh bias let's say what you're really doing anytime we learn tur we're accessing the mind of hem you know you're accessing the mind of hasem and you're you're learning you're kind of like picking hashem's brain about like what exactly was he envisioning with this whole marriage thing you know love it love it right in other words learning is a in a marriage of being a good listener or being a sensitive listener caring about the details what's important to your spouse like it's easy just to say okay that the Bible says put a sign between your a sign on your arm and an ornament between your eyes and okay I'll I'll I'll do whatever I think that feel whatever I feel that means right and it's like no we have to ask tough questions what does that mean like God wants something more specific and we get into the nitty details of that meaning fill in and how to make those to fill in and where to put them on and when to put them on and when you shouldn't put them on getting into the details of what matters to our spouse creates a sense of intimacy there there is I'll say something fascinating just from a statistical standpoint um people think that Mar good communication automatically translates into good marriage or or it could but that communication is the solution and apparently it's not true statistically John gotman who a you ever heard of John right John gotman is a relationship researcher and he says you have incredible you have couples with Incredible marriages they communicate horribly you have couples with um horrible marriages that end up God forbid in divorce and and they have wonderful communication and they're working on communication and and obviously communication can help communication obviously has value I'm not here to this miscommunication but automatic that that often seems to be like the automatic solution but he says here's what he says what what is the true what holds the marriage together he says and he actually quotes the verse in the Bible he happens to be an orthodox Jew but he quotes the verse in the tah do they know each other and are they sensitive to each other's needs on a very deep and and and meaningful level like how much do we know about our spouses to have a relationship with hem we have to know a lot about hasem we have to constantly be learning what's important to him which is what learning is and learning is why it's important to Hashem not just what's important to Hashem the what but also the why um and asking our our [Music] asking can you still hear me uh we cut out for probably 10 20 seconds we cut out there we'll we'll see if we can edit this or or not or we won't edit this whatever it's all good um but it's like we I want to know why this is important to you right um I I think one one thing we see in this mimer or that that pops out to me is Hashem is expecting us to make this world a garden for Hashem a place where he's comfortable dwelling so first of all one of the things that first pop out is the obviously Garden is an analogy right this world can look like a Jungle Sometimes and hasem is saying it's a garden that actually want to be here and it's it's like I don't see it that way um but I think number one is it challenges the way we view relationships because sometimes a couple can be in a very difficult spot in their relationship and the the relationship could actually be a garden even though it looks like a jungle and the reason is because they're focusing on problems and it's natural it's human nature to focus on problems um i' I've seen letters uh from the to that the had pen to people about sh and bias where the reab had told people like you guys are fighting about this and that and and there's also a lot of things you do agree on how about talk about those like you don't have to always reconcile argument sometimes you can you can just focus on connection and and the the the differences can resolve themselves like there's so much of this world that is a jungle and and we could be consumed about that um but there is really so much Beauty to this world where it really is a garden and we could do more of that and and in marriages even couples that are fighting brutally and have really difficult situations and there could be various reasons for these situations and sometimes exploring the reason and the cause is not always a good thing because it creates more rumination and and more discussion about the problem which makes us focus more on the problem and sometimes it's like there is a part of this relationship that either is or maybe even was good like I I I had a mentor in the world of counseling and he he said something which I thought was just so brilliant when a couple comes into the counseling room we have this tendency to say so what's the problem so we can somehow figure out what the problem is and somehow solve it and what he does is like why would I want to talk about that to trying to get away from that so what he says is how did you guys meet because you guys decided to get married that's probably a good thing so why don't we go back there why don't we right but that's what bani is like the God's divine presence was here already it was here already God saying I want to return and it's like how could I ever God bring God's presence here there was a from about this like well hashem's presence was here you're not creating anything new and and the fact that you know just like in psychologically you can't crave something you haven't had you somebody craves a good marriage because they've had either moments in because they know what a good marriage looks like essentially right focusing more on on that so it's like Hashem craves coming back to this world We crave having Hashem back in this world the world knows what that looks like on some level because historically God was here spiritually we have moments like Messiah moments where God is here so it's just like focusing more on the pre-existing good doing more of that bringing more down here instead of trying to you know of light pushing away the darkness instead of getting caught in the weeds has real clinical implications as well that's a very very interesting take I I I think I have some similar thoughts maybe a slightly different style but very much in line with what you're saying um for me like if I'm helping someone with shom bias um you know a lot of the attention goes on like what is it that we're trying to build you know I I think that we if there's one thing about marriage that I I would like want to scream from the rooftops and this is I guess my first scream from the rooftops about it it it's that love it it's that we we we think that we work on our marriage because problems came up it's almost like subconsciously consciously or subconsciously we go into marriage and we think it's supposed to be amazing we think it's supposed to be like one big honeymoon it's supposed to solve all of our life's problems and all of our emotional problems because now we have a wife and you know I know a lot of people go into marriage that way I think I went into marriage that way and we don't realize that no you might have that initial boost at the beginning that initial excitement but for it to be you know long lasting and happy on an ongoing basis and you know it has to be built you know it has to be worked on it's it's not that um you know ideally you marry the right person and you don't have to work on it but if you find out that you have to work on it then you you know speak to a counselor or coach or you know whatever I love that it's made it's made in such a way that it needs to be built that that's the structure of it you know that's awesome but but I if if if I could just I want to make sure I understand what you're saying um correctly because I if I if I am understanding correctly it resonates deeply that it's not about solving problems because first of all solving problems just makes you more aware of the problem and makes the problem worse but it's about building something so it's about building something and then from that building something I think that gives you a new perspective on the problems on the on the solving of the problems actually that that will help the problems resolve that will resolve the problems well it could that could resolve the problems or it could set or or help you tolerate the problems or or whatever it is it will it will make the marriage good so so hear me out so I I personally am a big fan of solving problems um but they're solving problems in a in a context of like we're trying to build something amazing you know and what do we build it out of what what are the steps to building it and my personal opinion a lot of the problems we can reframe them as like these are the things that if we can successfully address them then that's those are the Stepping Stones to where we're trying to go right like very often I'll ask clients the question of what's stopping you right you say you want to have an amazing marriage or whatever goal you might want to reach my favorite coaching question is what's stopping you and what else is stopping you let's get a list of all the things that are stopping you and then we reframe that list from instead of thinking of these as the big painful problems we think of them instead as these are the things that if you can come up with a better approach to them then you're going to be getting to where you want to go because after all those are the only things that are stopping you right so it's a it is a problem solving approach but with a a much more uh it's in the context of a positive building effort that makes sense in other words your your goal isn't to solve problems it's not just two roommates that aren't getting along let's solve this there was something deeper that you're trying to build 100% you know as you're seeing solving problems I personally I'm not into solving problems and maybe we'll get into that um I know it sounds a little wild but um but but if I'm understanding you correctly I'm not trying to challenge you I'm just the goal isn't to solve the goal isn't to solve the problems the goal solving problems in your Paradigm is a mechanism correct the the the problem Fred as the step Stones along the path where you're trying to go interesting I I love it it it it's I heard of art once it it says that it says in the gar that making is as difficult Asam right it's a Lish of V but it's it's a a good v um It also says in the gar that maintaining a business right parasa sorry is kak is as difficult asamu both of these things are as difficult asamu because both of these require maintenance yam required maintenance right AEM is constantly like like I guess it's not a like right is constantly the the model of constant creation the example for the model of constant creation is Camu is the splitting of the sea where is constantly splitting it otherwise it would the water would crash down again but a marriage has to constantly be intentionally held up it can't just go it it can't just be on default um one thing that I I read in a which I thought was interesting that the re brings the re quotes that the example of God coming down into this world or the example of marriage is a garden because a garden has a garden is associated with pleasure with enjoyment with with Sim with and um a big part of sim is not just you know people people understand Sim joy happy marriages as a as an outcome the outcome I'm looking for is happiness in other words I'll know this is a good marriage when I'm happy and I think Judaism also I think there's validity to that but I think Judaism also sees and especially sees happiness not just as the outcome but as as the as the mechanism 100% I I think you see that very clearly in Tanya I want to get back to b lagani a little bit but um yeah but in Tanya you see clearly you know if you would um if you would make it like a multiple choice question based on Tanya specifically happiness is a blank you know is it an outcome is it the mechanism I add is it uh responsibility you know like like fill in the blank like what is happiness you know so I would say so yeah exactly but the outcome I would say is the least emphasized in Tanya meaning like of course when your marriage is happy you're going to be happy but overall I think Tanya speaks about Simka first of all as um a means to being effective and and also that it's a ability and and you see that is one of my favorite uh I wrote on this in on of that when it talks about Sim why does alter ever bring up Simka and T we all know Simka is a big part of theic movement but why in in the context of the flow of Tanya how does it come up it comes up because the says even though I just explained to you how to win the fight between your but if you're not if you're notus meaning you're not in a state of Readiness to do whatever it takes so then and instead of zus you're in a state of ESS you're in a state of heaviness you're you're not ready to put in the effort you know so then you're not going to be successful you're not going to be able to to beat your na Bahamas even if you follow all the techniques that were taught before and so Sim is a is a necessity there we go we're back hello hello hello welcome back recording is still going so we're good I'm not hearing you so loudly now though what you can't hear me not very loudly oh man hold on fix my audio there how about now that's better okay okay you were sorry about that you were talking about the outcome H happiness not just as an outcome especially in the Paradigm of Tanya but as as a mechanism yeah so so in Tanya in the flow of Tanya background noise um so yeah so we were saying in the flow of Tanya how does the topic of happiness comes up it comes up in the context of Dr AB saying you know even though I just taught you a whole lot about the M between and how to win the or the or whatever path you're going to use but if you're not in a state of zus meaning a state of I'm energized and I'm I'm ready to do whatever needs to be done so then all those other things are not going to help right how do you get into that state of zus is through Sim and through uh he says being MRE your heart purifying your heart from all the the sadness and worries and down you know so so you see right there Simka why the first reason Alor as important is because it's a means to zus it's a means to being ready to do the work um and that's that right there is exactly what you're saying about Sim being a mechanism and then he also adds um a second reason why s is important because it says meaning even if you do everything right even if you do all the mes but you're doing it not happily you're doing it you know uh in a way that lacks Joy or or it feels heavy and maybe you're resentful about on some level or anything like that so that actually is such a fundamental lacking in t that we could be punished for it you know is uh without without getting into all the sources and explanations right now but that's clearly shot on what it's saying so so in other words happiness is a fundamental responsibility and it's also a means to being effective in fighting our Bahamas which by the way brings me to what I wanted to start to say before about basani um that I said I want to scream from the rooftops is like when when we're talking about build building a marriage um you know to to me the the whole flow of B lagani what what is this m b lagani what is it saying on a very basic level is part one this is the purpose of creation to bring the down here right um whether that's the Mish the Bas of mikash or ultimately the entire world right but that's what we're building that's what we're trying to do right when you say yeah one second for the sorry to interrupt for the for the benefit of our listeners um both for those who who aren't necessarily familiar with Hebrew but even for the Hebrew speaking crowd but just just to bring it down into into uh into our lingo what are we referring to when we say or even so I'm not gonna go to the karda of the whole first part of the mind yeah I mean I guess it's a loaded question because the M was unpacking that but but very simply know I love creation very simple it's very simple it's couched in cabala terminology but it's a very simple thing right now the world is a world that hides Hashem right the word world in Hebrew is related to the world the word for concealment you know the world is a place where we don't see that there's a God we could even think that there's not a God we could think that the world is just here by itself it says this explicitly in the mind nobody accuse me of any kind of by the way going back to marriage marriage could be the same way couples can feel very lonely yeah but they're still married there's still a relationship and there still may even be love and connection and and everything they need it's just the world is hiding it because they got too worldly they got too they have to focus inward a little bit 100% a husband and a wife certainly according to Kabal and have an essential Bond it's not just like someone that you happen to marry right you have an essential bond with this person your soul and and their soul were were quote unquote married and connected in in the in the world above before you're just going back to the connection 100% you're just revealing really we're revealing a connection that that already exists right love it so so sorry to interrupt you we're going back to hem and bringing the bringing the divine presence here right you're saying Hashem is here already Hashem is just hidden God is present but hidden or or not way that we can experience it accessibly yeah we could go back and forth about can you access through Mitzvah through his b whatever but very very simply without without any kind of Engagement and spirituality hem the the world is the world that hides hem you know and when we talk about bringing the certainly in the ultimate Way like you know the MIM makes it very clear that we're talking about bringing the um back bringing the world back to the state that it was in before the the sin of the tree of of knowledge right and in that world it was a world that did not hide Hashem it was Hashem was open revealed the animals praised hasem and bow to hasem and you know Adam was like the leader of this whole world that's worshiping hm it was a very it was a Messianic uh type of state of the world you know and that's what we're talking about bringing back and that's the job of the D is to finish that job and all that now what I wanted to say is so so it's on it's actually interesting it's both building and restoring something that's already they are kind of at the same time yeah it's interesting so how tie this back to what you wanted to yell at the rooftops keep here I'm trying to get to it so so if you look at what no no no you're good um this is fun so so what is the what is the tool that we use you know how how does a human being hope to accomplish that God should be revealed in the world like what what tool do you have to make that happen do you do that with a hammer do you do that with the screwdriver do you do that with an app on your phone like what how is that Within Reach of a human being to do right and it the truth is that it's not it it only can be that way uh you know it's only within our our reach to do it if we are plugged in somehow to some kind of spiritual system you know I I like to compare it to like a a light switch in a big stadium with big lights how does flicking that little switch turn on these massive massive lights doesn't make sense a tiny little thing moving half an inch you know could light up these big lights so okay yeah it doesn't really make sense it only makes sense because that switch is plugged into a whole larger system you know that that can make those lights come on and so yeah I was gonna say that that in other words it only doesn't make sense because we're looking at a switch we're not looking at the what's underneath the walls exactly if you it it only seems to not exactly it only seems to not make sense when you're looking at the switch as an isolated thing but if you're looking at the switch as a a small part of a massive all interconnected system that it makes all the sense in the world um and that is that is what B lagani is saying that we are plugged into this uh this whole massive spiritual system that allows us to through our actions to bring the and to make the world once again a world where hasem is revealed now the big question becomes what is the switch right what is what is the lights the light switch is a musle what is the act ual thing that I have access to that doesn't seem to you know it doesn't seem like it should have the power to reveal God in the world but actually it does because it's all interconnected to this big system right and the answer in bastani in all the bast of thean is a free to CB is the whole the whole H is built on this is that the these words is which in in simple terms means working on yourself by by working on the lower parts of yourself whether that's in a way of you know breaking yourself and discipline or whether that's in a way of transforming yourself you know that my mar get into all those details but but very simply the message of bani is that the purpose of the world is for Hashem to become once again revealed and the means to doing that is through us working on ourselves simple and the working on ourselves if I may add it's not just but it's unreasonable right it's not just restraint and transformation but it's unreasonable like say right um and by the way the the context of this concept OFA of help me translate this for the masses of I guess unreasonable investment um in other words investing something in in something that you believe in or that is true even if we don't believe in it investing in something that is not not just um to a degree Beyond where our minds would tell us like you know at some point we tell ourselves okay I think I did enough I think I'm invested enough I think I'm bought enough but your soul buys and even much more right like PE in in the context of marriage by the way people are com are capable of buying in so much more than we give ourselves credit for sure and and the concept of by the way comes from that from R was it RAB shim who's juggling the Hadas and branches at the wedding and RAB Z is like embarrassed like why are you doing this you're the rash yiva you're making a fool of of us he ends up passing away later and big fire came on his grave and that was considered to be a big deal and they said it's because of the that he had did but the context of him doing that was at a marriage was at a wedding right right and maybe it's a little far-fetched but I think it's important also in marriage the definition of marriage is an investment that isn't just rational or emotional 100% I I would sayha if you want me to explain it the way I understand that ITA essentially is about going to a part of yourself you know it's about recognizing that intellect is in fact not your highest faculty that there's something deeper there's an essential bond with Hashem and there's there's really an essential bond with your wife as well and with every Jew and it's about going to that place of the essential Bond and operating from that place and you know it's so so it's like right there's one way you'll see your wife and your marriage if you look at it from an intellectual perspective there's a different way you'll experience your wife and your marriage if you go to that place of hey we're actually two halves of one soul and this is an essential body and that's probably the difference by the way between dating and marriage what do you mean because when you're dating you're not actually connected you're you might be you might feel connected you're emotionally connected intellectually connected right this makes sense it feels right when you're married it's like no this is right now let's try to figure out how it makes sense and and how it feels right right yeah I think from a cabalistic perspective what we're really doing when we're dating is we're going through a process of clarification is this is this person the one who's the other half of my or are they not you know and they might look like it they might there might be certain ways we connect intellectually or emotionally but that's not actually the one that I have that essential Bond but I think that's actually right you know we can talk about how to implement the Implement that perspective practically that's another conversation but I think that's essentially what we're really doing according to the truth of uh H you know right which by the way I I think and I I think I'm putting the counselor's hat for a second on in marriage counseling it there's this saying don't get seduced by the problem because sometimes there's so much baggage and it's like how am I going to solve this problem and this problem and this problem and that problem that problem it's like put that aside for a second do they believe that there's an essential connection and if they do let's go back to that for a second let's go back to that space now how we bring them back to that space is a whole whatever hold a separate discussion but getting back to that space is a is an incredibly healing process and it's true in our relationship with hasem getting back to this space that we're inherently connected with Hashem and that's why hasm wants us to restore the world and our relationship with him to how it once was but the mimer says something beautiful that when we do it's actually going to be on a higher level it's going to be greater right a repaired relationship is can illuminate brighter than one that was never broken right bringing God back to the world and enables him to illuminate within all the mishas that that this world has to offer which is something hasm couldn't have done were and not to eat from that tree of knowledge and and kind of darken the world right that's kind of what I was alluding to when I said before that there's this element of of restoring what's already there but also building something new at the same time sorry about that yeah everybody in subsequent Generations as well and yet Hashem has the ability to illuminate through all that and and and that's a beautiful thing um can I tell you a quick story sure so I I used to visit this national uh laboratory that worked on like high top security uh military defense systems and stuff like that there was a ton of Jews there I had a security pass and weed to we had a Jewish Club there I used to give a class there every week and it was amazing to see Jews connect from all walks of life and there was this fellow there senior fellow he's probably pushing 90 he was part you know he was like part-time at this point semi-retired he grew up quote unquote Orthodox I I say that not to challenge how Orthodox he grew up I say that because I don't like labeling people um but he I realized as I'm saying that not I'm not like he he grew up Orthodox he left Judaism ended up marrying out and and had not engaged for many many years but he would come to this class and at one point he says to me can I ask you a question he had a lot of questions about the Torah and stuff and it was it was amazing to see Aid just re-engage and then sh like respark and he and I'll tell you why I'm telling you this I think it's relevant to this MIM he says to me can I ask you a question I said short he says how's Judaism doing in America I didn't know what he was asking in in my world it's great I don't know like um he's living in a he's not living in that frame of mind and and I said what do you mean mean he says well my I I married out my siblings did the next generation is not engaged to the degree that the previous generation was are there more people engaging in Judaism um than are leaving it I said look I don't have any data for you I could tell you this I think Judaism has been more accessible in every way possible than it ever has been in the history of Judaism maybe Mount Si is the exception like literally at the moment of sin but no but for real other than that you can have Judaism whenever you want wherever you want however you want however you want to consume it whether you want to read it you want to hear it you want to watch whatever it's like everywhere in every language it's and physically um um spiritually technologically I said it's just everywhere and I said I think that's commentary on on uh on consumer's desire for it and he says to me can I ask you a question I said sure he goes why said what do you mean why he said ' why would anybody want this and it's a fascinating qu because he showed up and nobody's forcing him to show up right so I interpreted that as he's asking the question not only why would people want this but why do I want this I know I want it because I'm here and despite not engaging for 40 50 60 maybe even actually he told me 75 years despite not engaging for 75 years I'm Still Here Wanting it and it's like why I said look what I I think it's a great question in some ways it's easier not to right if you're a student in Columbia University and you're being tormented by anti-semites maybe it's easier not to but for some reason people want it and I think the why is language for what I call the soul and I felt like this guy for the for probably the first time in a while had really felt like he had connected with his Soul without using the lingo soul but to me that was like the God's divine presence coming back into this world and that would have and that's Illuminating much more in a much more profound way than where he had to had never left and just you know continued the course of life as he you know as as a as a Jew probably should have like he was able to shine in such a way where he wouldn't have been able to before 100% what I said I marriages could do that as well exactly exactly marriages could do that as well and I think if if people believe more in the in the marriage than the than they do in the issues that are coming up not that the issues aren't real um I'm not here to invalidate challenges people are going through but that doesn't but but you could illuminate that with incredible beauty and and obviously with proper guidance and in a healthy way but it it can bring incredible light 100% that that's why I like the the the problem solving element you know like me meaning as long as we recognize that the problem solving is not only about problem solving like you said you know it's it's about right building some it's about restoring it's about revealing an essential connection we have and building something even more profound right then the problem in other words the the parts of our character which are unrefined right which is what A scof and H is all about it's about the fact that hasm created us with flaws you know certainly after the we all have flaws um right you know have we have anger we have arrogance we have depression we have uh you know uh laziness we have Tas we have you know all the things that talks about of the different mid that are part of the but is not helping us solve problems as much as he is helping us illuminate through them the aara is still going to be there the well we have quite a lot of power to diminish the aara we we might not be able to banish itely the re says differ now but but that's I'm saying it's not even dealing with the as much as it is dealing with with the light that can illumin that can outshine it so I I'd like to I'd like to challenge you meaning I I think part two on this part there let me just say what I'm trying to say that that I think that yeah yeah yeah there is something very real about solving problems from a constructive perspective you know like like it's okay for a person to have the maturity and I think it's a very effective for a person to have the maturity to say hey I'm a flawed person that's okay I don't hate myself or anything I I don't but I also don't back down from the fact that I have flaws I bring my flaws into my marriage you know we all do my wife also does I'm not we're not judging we're just being aware of the reality you know and to recognize that by doing on my flaws you know that is the that is what the building process is done that's the light switch that turns on the whole thing you know like the says clearly in the you know through in this in here in this world the Osmos that that is how you reveal Osmos in other words it's through the fact that you have a lower part of yourself and you're willing to tackle that head on and refine yourself that is the light switch access that you have to flip on the light and and be magala OS which is more than that was there before the you know so that's that's my argument approach in a problem in in a very positive very constructive uh context I I like that I think I I I just want to I just want to finish this point that this is really what I wanted to scream from the rooftops is that sorry we should go I want to finish this point that this is what I was saying at the beginning that that I would want to scream from the rooftops is like go into your marriage knowing that working on yourself is what makes it great don't go into your marriage thinking it's going to be great and oh shoot it's going wrong now I have to work on myself no no go into your marriage knowing that working on yourself is what will make it great go into the world knowing that working on yourself is what and go into your marriage perfectly aligned with that I don't think this is even outside of theot of what it says in the M honestly when you're going into the marriage part of your life go into that too with the mindset that your job is to do a scafi of vak over here and that is what is going to create that amazing light from within the darkness so I I read a story from the fre k um it was in his where he's describing in 1941 when he's first Coming to America he's describing his experience being on the boat and he says I'm very uncomfortable you know you're on this boat for a long time you're not with your people you're not physically comfortable you're not socially you're spiritually comfortable and he says I find myself being very scared or concerned you know everybody was cynical or skeptical about the F Coming to America he had to fight and say America is America is no different than the old we could still have God there and he says I'll tell you what I'm afraid of it's not about how I'm gonna find a minion I'll figure that out it's not about parnasa I'll figure that out it's not about finding kosher I'll figure it out he says it's about how am I going to change America so America doesn't change me but he didn't wait till he got off the boat to think that he he came prepared exactly and I asking ourselves that question how are we going to inspire world so we see that it's hashem's Garden so we don't automatically see it as a jungle and get all intimidated and all get swallowed up in it and like there's no hope how are we going to see that this marriage is inherently a good holy sacred and ultimately Pleasant and pleasurable thing so we don't get swallowed up by the problems in the first place now I I I will I I have my reservations with problem solving um which we'll have to have a separate discussion about the separate podcast about this um I'm not inherently against problem solving um personally in counseling I don't get into the problem solving role because you never know the real problem there's layers to problems um you don't know if what they're saying is you know sometimes what seems like the problem is really the symptom of a larger problem there could be multiple layers whether it be chemical or biological or or or um psychological or psychiatric and there could be multiple layers but what I do want to say is going back to your approach I I think I think our our discussion we obviously agree more than we disagree in Even in our approach to problems it's it's subtle language but I think when we take that approach of what we ultimately see is that the problems aren't really problems but the problems ultimately do become strengths because that's what ESF and that's what his is that transformation right what what seems like anger is actually just passion and and what seems like um I don't know whatever it is what what what seems like you could take this with any trait you know where you can really strip it down to its core and it's not necessarily a bad thing you know I was listening to a psychologist he was saying that he has a child who's very anxious an anxious type of person he says I used to see it as a problem and I realized that because he's so anxious he's so sensitive to other people right because because he's like so you know and he's sensitive to other people's needs he has another child who's less anxious also less sensitive to what other people's needs are so if we do real real transformation even to the problem we ultimately see that it isn't problem these are all just mechanisms by which we can express who we really are and what our relationship connection whether it be with our spouses or with Hashem really is it's interesting yeah I I think this subtle difference between us is is uh worth an episode onto itself like you said um yeah I'm sure we both have a lot to to to say yeah for me like uh uh I first of all I do totally agree with what you said about the pitfall of solving the wrong problem that's definitely true um to me like in my coaching with clients I I think one of the things that I pride myself on like if I would sort of uh you know analyze like what makes my coaching effective I would say that one of the things that I'm very on top of is making sure that I'm solving the right problem you know and not just the first problem that the person says because it's like you said bigger problem whole list of problems solving the wrong problem I think is actually one of the biggest things that could stop therapy or coaching from being effective you're just spending your time on the wrong problem um to my mind that doesn't mean that we need to not in the way I'm trained yeah right no in the way I'm trained if you can get to what they want instead of the problem you can't have both at the same time can't be angry and happy at the same time right so instead of trying to get rid of the anger just start right or or whatever it might be but but anyways I I I don't want to deviate too much because I know we both have to go soon and I want to respect your time but if we had to like leave our listeners with one thought I I'll I want you to share just a reflection I I I think it's I love the idea of learning a mimer and then learn it again and again and it's like ask tough questions like like who cares and I I mean that in with all respect because I remember once I was giving a Shear years ago and I wasn't thinking too deeply I was just conveying Concepts and the guy listening he wasn't to laer and didn't have an inherent respect forus the way we do he you know is this meaningful or is it not like which which opened my mind because he says to me can I ask you a question I said yeah he is who cares I'm like wow I you know other people were offended but I wasn't offended to me it was eye opening because it challenged me to kind of like you're right I have to actually like I philosophically it's true and it's meaningful on some level but but it has to talk to the ne Bahamas has to talk to us to us human beings 100% I also once actually gave a sheer on this m b about that first part about the about the all the different levels of the and everything which I said I wouldn't get into now but but one time I did give a share specifically on that and the first question I asked was who cares like world changing Jewish leader comes onto the scene his first official mimer and this is what he has to say is like the and and and the or and the the three levels of the or like those are his opening words of his famous first mimer like could we say something a little bit relevant please you know right now obviously when I'm asking that I know that the Reb is not saying something irrelevant you know you're coming you're coming from the perspective that it is relevant it's like let's figure out how yeah but but sometimes we we don't give ourselves that permission like I think this is what you're saying like we don't give ourselves that permission if we don't see the relevance to say like hey why is it relevant we kind of I'm saying for the bobur now we we kind of we know that we're supposed to rever it and so we're like okay I don't know I guess it's just very holy stuff you know and and we don't like yeah we don't ask that question we think maybe we're not supposed to like you said who did ask the question someone who didn't have an intrinsic respect for clones you know and there's a big there's a big advantage in that and it's good for us at the same time we can we can do both we can we can know that it must be important and it must be relevant and and it's not just holy and aloof and above us you know and therefore respectfully ask the question and be determined to Come Away with an answer and that that's really I think the the way to do it that's awesome awesome well thank you for this opportunity L and uh that's my story and I'm sticking to it okay