Update on the Silberberg Agunah Case - #FreeDevorah (Chol HaMoed)

good morning everybody this is rabbi from goldberg with rabbi avi kahan interrupting ours and your whole hamoid in order to offer a second update on the silverberg aguna case we interrupt our simcasiantifar moeid and your hola mode because this is such a critical critical issue and unfortunately there are misconceptions lies distortions manipulations that are being spread and shared and we feel in a christ we feel an obligation a responsibility to clear the record and as well to offer some insight to take advantage of the opportunity to learn over this khalamoid with a real expert ravikahan a great dai and somebody who's been very very involved and a lot of experience in dinai torah in based in and as a rav to help us understand the system as a whole so i want to offer a very quick update on where we are and then a conversation with rav khan about the system as a whole so that all particularly those who've never had experience with it can have a better understanding again if khan is my dear friend the rob of kyle new city adai and the founder of the bayes denver hadin and we're so grateful and honored of khan that you are joining us yet again so despite rumors that the get was given in the silverberg case it has absolutely not been given and despite rumors that the serum has been lifted against adam silverberg that is also a fallacy it's also entirely incorrect and untrue your pressure the efforts of those who attended the rallies did have an impact it brought own to the table and it brought on to a conversation and negotiation that for two years there's been an effort to mediate for two years there's been an effort to bring him to bazin and to bring him with various mediators robotim and lay people that never came to fruition but because of you those who placed pressure and those who shined the spotlight online on social media and who showed up and raised your voice in person for the first time it brought around to a conversation aaron came to the mahonda and signed the tiberian signed a binding arbitration that he was willing to undergo a negotiation unfortunately the person representing aaron his toeing spoke to the head of the mahonda baysden misrepresented some things and the macholar put out a letter that you may have seen because arun side has been sharing it that declared that the seraph has been lifted that the seraph has been removed because of aaron's now new willingness to participate however has clarified that that it was a mistake that unfortunately they were misled and they've issued and they're issuing a new letter i was part of a conference call on the first day of holland yesterday morning with the head of the secretary of the mahonda radesdan together with the imminent of the basin of america and the others and they issued the following text which will appear on their letterhead immediately after yantif sadvaram they want to clarify i'm reading to you now from the mahonda based regarding the letter that came out uh from us regarding adin with varun bin aaron zimmer bregman is kunslinger regarding the matter between aaron zilberberg and dvorah all we wanted to do is say that our own has signed a binding arbitration that he was willing to engage our based in s everything else written there was done so mistakenly especially because we don't have knowledge about the rest of the dispute about this conflict so therefore the letter should not be used to say anything other than the fact that aaron is willing to go to based in vaughan and we call on both sides to pursue the matter with peace with honor and to both satisfaction um and critically they conclude the letter that it should be concluded in a based in which is acceptable to both sides so again no get has been given no binding arbitration has been agreed to by both sides because there is a dispute how the binding arbitration should work what the terms are to agree so the serve remains in place the basis of america has confirmed the server remains in place has confirmed that the seraph remains in place arun is masare vladin he has not participated in a based in process regarding the giving of the get and because of that we need to continue the pressure your pressure the spotlight of social media free devorah want us to continue all of us have to continue we not only have a heter arguably we have we have an obligation and a responsibility there's a man with a sailor of against him who refuses to cooperate and giving his wife a get and we must continue to apply the pressure there are conversations and there are negotiations and there's a possibility of mediation and all of it please god will continue and we'll continue to success but what brought us to this point has been the pressure and that social pressure must continue aaron is currently in lakewood for yanta for pesach there will be a rally outside where aaron is staying for yantef where the details will be shortly coming but we call on all those who can attend the rally very soon in lakewood to continue to apply the pressure on our own to participate and to do the right thing davota deserves it family deserves it she deserves to move on and we call upon everyone so again the get has not been given binding arbitration starbearing has not been signed by both sides they have not decided on a venue or a place for a hearing it's in this it's all uh untruths that have been told um she is not yet satisfied with the terms although please god they can be uh they can be worked out and most importantly the serve against our remains in place confirmed by both the based in of america who issued the serve and by muhammad based in as well sort of khan we turn to you what does it mean how does a seraph get placed against somebody and how is this removed and what are star baron and if the fact that one side has signed them does that mean that now they've turned the tables and the other is the guilty party so good night eric goldberg those are all great questions and let's see how much time we have um we'll start from what a starburst is a starburst in english is an arbitration agreement which means that under the laws of most states in the united states of america two parties are allowed to decide to have an alternative dispute resolution meaning that they have a dispute they don't want to go to court to take care of it they're allowed to hire a third party person agree that this third party person could take over whatever a judge could preside on of course there are different caveats in every state what arbit what the law of arbitration governs what you're allowed to what types of dispute you're allowed to take to arbitration but it's a general rule most disputes you allow to take arbitration you have to sign so barack should we live in america america has such laws and therefore besides allowed to exist nowadays because people all had a sign that they're going to follow whatever business says and that's what the what the terminology style is an arbitration agreement means um i think it's important to understand why we're in halacha does it come in that means there are those that believe i've seen this very often written i've seen this posted on certain blogs that starbursts are meant for liars that means people are coming in front of the best in bezen has to make sure that they're not wasting their time and getting here for a few weeks to hold the entire and then make a ruling and everyone's just going to walk away not listening so besides because they're scared that people are lying and people are not going to keep what they say they force people to sign a document which is going to make them keep what best in rules um the police can seem to believe not like that they believe that starburst is something mandated from the torah and our makadish in parish to shape them he discusses this when he when he brings the magilta that mahilton says in the past everyone should have shayfim judges which is bazdan and shaitam and enforcers so it could be in the times of the tyrant forces were actual policemen every bezen had people who would enforce go into people's houses and remove possessions based on bazon's sack says that if you don't have shaytar if you don't have any way to enforce the sack you don't have the pheasant doesn't exist there's no mitsu to keep us then there's no mitzvah to go to bed and if you can't enforce and many police can quote this arahima coalition they say therefore veterans cannot enforce peasant doesn't exist even if both people promise they're going to keep what says doesn't does not exist that they cannot enforce in barak hashem we live in the media that has arbitration laws so basin adapted arbitration laws and said that people should sign and that gives us but without shaytan doesn't doesn't exist even if we believe everyone's going to keep what is going to say and i think that's very very important though absolutely so the fact that a basin is essentially functioning as a civil binding arbitration and just like you can choose a secular arbitrator the parties can choose based in as the binding arbitration and then they're bound by civil law to follow through on what the basin says so explain to us the process of husbands so devoto went to the basement of america and she said i'd like a din total with my husband to for him to have to give a get we're civilly divorced the civil divorce is final and concluded we're living separate and apart we have reconcilable differences and he refuses to give a get they met with a masada kitten in south florida and he refused to give the get and they attempted other efforts and refused to give it again so she went to the basement of america the base in america sent three asmanas three subpoenas or invitations to participate in based in to explain his side of the story why he doesn't think he has to give the get he ignored all three and they therefore consider it to be messiah within they apply to syria against them could you explain what is a serious and what are the consequences of the fact that they applied to syrup and then how does the syrup get uplifted if he went to an altogether different basin now and he signed binding arbitration with a different based then without even responding to the original base that placed the serum is there even a havamina why would anyone think that would remove the soup so these are such great topics but before we jump into that topic i want to i think i think it's important to start with another question that's going to help us understand the topic of azerbaijan ciros is why all together go to beds and for a gap it means what did what did devorah want when she went to the basin and she said please invite send the hazmat please invite aaron to come to the best because that's the english type of a definition of um what was she asking what did you want to hear what was it was just an appointment for a guest what was what was the hazmat being sent out what did i think he was receiving so there isn't much like you to go to bed and forget the mission in the beginning of sanhedrin says that gifting is vishlesha that when you sit over git then you should have three people many of the reshaynam and the majority of bahrain and believe that that's only a discussion when a husband doesn't want to give a get or a wife doesn't want to take a guess it means a regular get you don't need three people we actually do it it's a humra we usually have a bed when we do a get um but the mishna when the mishnah was referencing that three people should sit by again that's a get that's being done against somebody's will the basal levy even basically says that anytime you do something against somebody else's will the best has to be the one who decides that that could be done and it's it's very very important so therefore either if we're forcing a man to give a get or forcing a lady to receive a gap basically he says the same thing if you want to force a lady to take a get you need a bezel to make that decision and beznin has to be the one who decides that so if a couple consensually just wants to get divorced the husband and wife can meet at the best and to again they're usually the ones who do the get when they want to have a discussion when one party doesn't want to give a get then they need to do it in front of the best thing now i think this is very very important to know why in the world should a husband not want to give a get why is there ever hazal's eyes at the entire a purpose to have an entire to discuss and i think the answer is very simple even though it's not discussed in the gemara explicitly but it's hinted there are certain husbands who love their wives and i think it's very very natural because i'll understood that that there's certain times that the marriage is going to be that the husband leaves the marriage they institute aksuba for that reason the mission says could they should i take caliban of lagarch it shouldn't be easy for a man to give his wife a divorce so they said they have to pick suba remissions of the opinion that you might not have to pick super now that the this is him that's a harem to divorce your wife paul karakov you know that enforcer so you might not have to pick subaru unless she brings that in in in through the thought process but there are certain cases where the wives leave where the wife leaves the marriage which i think is important to discuss and certain husbands want to still pursue and work on their marriage that's one reason that a husband doesn't want to give a gap another reason is because he wants to negotiate which i i want to discuss that for two three minutes and then we'll get back to the first one uh there is a trebuchet that even though the rashball argues on it rebelliash was a harindell of rocco who was known to be one of the leaders in heir to sorrow in evan ezzar and in gitan specifically he sat on the best in ramanuth and a lot of the protocols that the best i wouldn't use until that if somebody wants to make a tanai before he gives the gut for example he's one of those people out of force to give a get whatever that means we'll explain that he one he's one of the people you're allowed to force and they're about to beat him up and right before they beat him up to give the guy he says look i want to give the guest i just want her to do a b and c first the marston doesn't really go into detail what a b and c is but i wanted to do an a b and c first the maharaja damn pascans that if a b and c is normal which again is very debatable what normal means but if what he's asking is normal you're not allowed to force him to give the gut even if he's one of those people you're a lot of force and if you force him to give him get before she does this a b and c the get's not a good gap so now we have that we have two precedents in halo not to give a get one when the husband still wants to stay married he's pursuing he's running after shalom bayes he's speaking to everybody and to the maharashtra which is debatable what the maharashtra means and we'll speak about it later um then he wants to he wants her to do something before he gives the guy those are the two two cases where so therefore we go to besdon hey to see is this marriage still pursuable is this still attainable does this have any havamina still working out we'll discuss how besides makes that decision and base if the husband says i want to give a gift i just want to see my children i want to give the guest i just want to settle the super first i want to give the gut i want to discuss the properties are those considered normal to do before you give a guess those are the two discussions that i bought them in the play scheme and i think every entire in eritrea that happens over kitten is this discussion the husband or the wife so go back to reason number one so and let's apply it to our real case that we're with right now when a couple has where they're living separately and a civil divorce is in place so you can't claim you're going to continue to pursue shell and bias you're not going to go for counseling you are civilly divorced the wife says absolutely not based on his pattern of behavior based on his character based on our experiences there is no future i do not and refuse to be married to this man so we're living separately we've divided our lives we have a civil divorce in place and you are you the husband are doing certain things in your lifestyle which make it clear as well that you've moved on that you no longer have a loyalty or fidelity you've moved on so is is there even a deal is there even a discussion that needs to take place to happen in other words once the wife says there is no possibility of shell and bias what's left for the based in to evaluate to determine if they could have shalom bias are they going to try to convince her are they going to try to coerce her are they going to tell her too bad you have to wait a little bit longer i mean if the wife says i'm out i'm done there's no marriage here and it takes two to tango can a basin have her interest more in mind than she has for herself or can a bayesian force her to try to pursue a shell and bias that she knows doesn't exist what's even left to hear in such a case so this question is probably the hottest question of the season i think that everyone's discussing what does doesn't have to do because we're discussing sean bias and i think it's such an important topic and if i if if we could discuss this topic for a couple of minutes i think we'll shed a light a lot a lot on the situation the mishna discusses two different personalities of people that we obligate to give a gut one the mission says these are the people we force to give a get and the mission of lists of different works that people do different personalities the way people act and the mishna kidarka bhaktis is very very cryptic it doesn't discuss a lot the gemara discusses more and then they reshame him until the modern day ahrenum discuss even more different personalities so for example addiction might have not existed in the times of ghazal we don't even find and discuss so much the brain you know or mental illness i think the brain is referenced once in the whole chasse the gemara and yavamas where somebody says the the opposing says it appears to me you don't have a brain in your skull but the brain is not really mentioned now we know a lot about mental illness we have to try to understand how hazal would understand mental illness and they discuss all these people that you're a lot of force to give a gut so the rambam asks a contradiction the mishna says and the gemara says clearly that a get has to be given consensually the husband has to want to give over the get if he doesn't want to give over the get then the get is actually not a get what creates a get for being a guest and not being just a piece of paper the gek is created by the husband's want to write this gut that means it's very interesting and i don't want to go too much of a tangible cause getting but it is a fascinating picture of their blesser that i think is worthwhile to be known the period of blessing says there are six people who scream so loudly during something in this world that their voice goes from one side of the world to the other side of the world but nobody could hear it except the kadhi baruch that's how loud it is one of them is a lady when she gives birth one of them is a snake when he crawls between two rocks to shut his skin there's a cold that goes out says the pyramid bloods are so loud and one is a lady when she receives her gap the prick of blood says when the lady receives her get there's some scream i i've seen a lot of gifts and i've never heard screaming i've seen crying but there's a scream that only akhadis baruch who could hear and that khreem asked in the picture of the laws what about the guy he's also giving you get i've seen many guys during it and they're they're just as emotional as the wives sometimes even more emotional it's very interesting to realize sometimes even more emotional wears their cry because broccoli doesn't listen to them and the explanation that allah give is based on a very interesting rabbarak bear rabarak baron who sit in the safer birkish mulangitan brings a hashgoff at least nine times in the safer from his rabbi raphael he brings it down for mrs allen meltzer for bulkhanovasimen from himself sometimes a certain finish which is very important and the way he brings down the finish is by asking a contradiction is that whenever you make a messenger to do anything the messenger has to be obligated or have access to the same thing you could so for example someone wants a messenger to build hisoka for him he might have to be a year to build a suk according to some reshainam you want a messenger to be makavich a lady to send a shli after being a kadish lady it has to be a yid the wife wants to send the messenger to accept the get for her it has to be a good dream the gosh says when the husband sends a messenger he's allowed to send an evid he's allowed to send an evidence to be mcgowarish's wife to give a divorce to his wife and roberto asked that by conducion nowhere it says that you're allowed to send an evidence to be makadish your wife or she's allowed us on the evidence to receive the condition how come by git and the man is allowed to send the evidence but the lady cannot send the effort to receive it arabic says it he says it's a big mistake to think that the husband is divorcing his wife a husband doesn't divorce his wife at all a husband marries his wife he doesn't divorce her the gut divorces his wife the husband just has to provide for her the get the divorce is happening through the get being received by the lady therefore the husband's not divorcing why so he could send that evid to bring her over the gap because the get the garrish and the separation the closure is happening with the get and the acceptance of it the giving it is just to create the shema just to create the actual get without the husband's consent you can't create a get so a husband doesn't lose as much as the wife is losing by again the wife is getting divorced the benefit says the husband's still married to the wife after the divorce there's a puss in the basal alta salim that a husband has to support his grusha his wife who's divorced means for the husband she's still they're still married after the husband's now allowed to marry a second wife he'll allow mary's second wife now the husband has two wives one wife who he's not married to one wife who he is married to the wife gets fully divorced she's allowed to go marry somebody else the divorce is happening to the wife not to the husband which i think is very very important to understand and that's what there's only a cull that leaves from the ladies from from the lady's mouth and therefore the rambam asks a question if the creation of the get happens because the husband has la shma and the husband is giving his consent how are you ever allowed to force a husband to give a guy which is i think a great question because on social media people are writing if you force the guts not a good gut something writing if you force it is and people are quoting different sources so the rambam explains beautifully and the rambam whatever his proof is it's very debatable what the rambam's proof is but the ram says that he knows that every yid deep down is a good person every year wants to be a good person it's a gemaran brochure the kimhara says that um sandura used to say before after he finished davening that hashem you know that it's with science every kid wants to do the right thing um every year the ramen says we know every year wants to do the right thing and every subconscious which is there in the summer was created with the torah and therefore if the terror says that he's forced to give a get means he deep down wants to give a gap he just is not mindful enough to his feelings and he has some types of some type of personality disorder which is telling him that it's okay not to give his wife a god even if he's saying he wants shalom bias and therefore such a person around them says you're allowed to beat him till you get through to him you're allowed to give him muscle you let it talk to him you're allowed to protest you allowed to beat him till you get through because we know deep down he wants to do it and he has a personality disorder it's very interesting the ramen doesn't say this but the gemara and barack doesn't quote that ghost is what creates this decision not to give the get but it seems like that's what the gemara says also so people have a lot of reasons why not to give the gut they have a personality disorder yatzahara bad advice but it's not really them we don't have a havamina that any person who's not getting yet deep down is bad because we would have such a hard amino that we wouldn't be able to ask the person to give a gut we have to believe that that's practical so bring it back to the practical for a second so therefore the rallies the protests the social media momentum all of it is not if our own chooses or if someone were to choose to give a get as a result of that doesn't turn into a get move so it's not a course to force get which would invalidate it it is the world in other words don't protest against our own because you dislike him protest because you love him and because you want to get him to do what he knows he really wants to do this is such an important important idea because there's those who've been saying i can't do that to a fellow jew we're embarrassing we're humiliating we're shaming him his family i i can't do that and the answer is that's hate it's hate it's hate to not protest because to protest to rally is to speak to the pintalie the neshama inside the person and say we know what you really want to do more than you know and we're going to try to remove the barriers and peel back the layers and get to the core of who you are which is someone who wants to do the right thing so i want to go back to just another practical can i can i cry for one second yeah please i i just i want to bring it to a close because i think people are going to be very critical to this point this is where the basal levy learns up from the gemara that bezon makes this decision because who gets to the side of who's elisha kai from the haiti and this is where i wanted this because why do we need betterment for this at all who the missional lists off who's able to create which means who has a personality disorder that deep down they want to give a get and they think they actually think that they don't want to give it and who's that person that you have to get through and who's that person you're allowed to scream and also i think a question that we have to ask is since when does the terrorists say screaming helps like why is that the hashikofa why why is that what the rambam says kyphon i say force him hit him like shouldn't we talk to him shouldn't we have a conversation with him first i think that's very very important to to address why we jump to protest why don't why they're not things that are done first are the things that are done first we should explain but here's where the base of lady says that bezen has to be the one to make that decision and there's a macholicus wine this is very very important there are those that say and this is i think so important for the for the hamlet to understand there's another mishna that discusses people who you know are forced to give again these are the people that are obligated to give a gap and the reshannam among them rabbenutam asked a question many were shannon asked this question deep down what does this guy want does he want to give get or does he want to not give a gap because the regen clearly said that somebody who's highest to give a gap and you beat him the guess is not a good guy you let it hide your light incentivize him says herbert you let it tell him not to come to shul you're allowed to say you're not going to give him you're allowed to actually protest you don't bury it could be in certain cases you don't bury their craving you don't mild their children many not many macholics what do you do when somebody reaches the level but the resham asks deep down who is this person if he wants to give a gap let's beat him if he doesn't want to give it get don't and the reaching say something beautiful it's a tree with sarosh rabbini time many restraining our master like this the say there are certain people let's say this guy is not giving a gap because he actually loves his wife and it's horrific i've sat at many many many such meetings and we have to be very very sensitive to it a guy comes in and he did something wrong and it could be the reason he was capable of doing something wrong is because he already has a personality disorder he already thinks it was okay for him to do something wrong i mean the bellatonia many swarm of goldberg we know this say that he could only do something wrong when they make a mistake and they think they're capable to do something wrong so this guy is there he's doing these things wrong and now he comes he says i want to do chuva i mean we would accept person into the room we would say come on let's talk to us let's do chuva and here we're telling you no your wife doesn't have to accept you back so says rabbin utam and the russian many other russian such a person you're allowed to tell them look you're exotic you're a good person but you did something wrong we want to be with you to do truma but she's not obligated to stay with you she's not she's not she's allowed to decide we're not christians the catholic church doesn't believe in divorce that barbados says the reason why we believe in divorce can't fall apart if i do something wrong then i i can't strengthen my marriage that barbara nelson that's where he argues with the catholic church so we tell this husband we're sorry you could do trouble you could start your life again you can marry somebody else but she's not obligated she's not obligated but somebody who's hiv you're not at a person to give again you have to get him to understand this you have to talk to him you have to talk to me i'm sorry you have to you have to get we have to get through to such a person we have to break through to such a person you're allowed to push him you're allowed to say i'm sorry until you don't understand this you can't come to shul i'm sorry until you don't understand this we can't give you an aliyah i'm sorry until you don't understand we're going to protest in front of you until you come to the table but you're allowed to get through tim clayton you're not getting through to that person because telling us you're not going to get through that person he hit a level he hit a level that you're probably not going to be able to get through to him he's he has a real deep personality so i mean the psychologists now understand what the rambam meant a thousand years ago the random says somebody with a personality disorder a deep one where his yates a heart is fully governing him he doesn't even recognize himself you're allowed to beat him because you're not gonna get through to such a person modern-day psychologists say that people who have narcissistic personality disorders which is lacquered the eight sahara it's the tsar shall be esau you can't get through you can't talk to them so the ram says it's not that the turtle likes this it's not the turtle's a fan of this so you don't know what's just for for both of our liability sake let's just clarify we don't beat anyone we don't cattle prod anybody we don't we don't get physical or graphic or violent with anyone today what we talk about today forcing is the benetham like we're talking about right now the social pressure and shining the spotlight and um withdrawing from a person socially not allowing them to have certain social licenses or privileges membership in community kibudim and so on and so forth that's our version of of forcing rebecca did you have conversations around directly were you involved in trying to mediate and then trying to bring this to a get without having to go to a basement without having to have a hearing to just realize that the the marriage is over give the get it's the final step towards this separation and do you think that we've reached the point that you just described to kofin that while aaron is a wonderful person inside and and externally too in many many many ways but there's a yet sahara that has gotten the best of him that he's refusing to cooperate until now and giving us the the license and the permission to be doing these social pressure so it's it's i i want i wanted i want to talk about this because it's so important there's a safer called kefir baguette which a lot of the diatoms use it's one of the essential swarm that they on them use when they navigate through these complicated topics because these complicateds are our these topics are very complicated the safety of the gut was written by with c gartner and in tough shin mem alef a couple of years ago um rebel yash who gave a scammer to the safer and in the hammer to the safer combined in the store ruby asheville wrote what do you do when one when the parties don't want to go to bed in such a case of trio arably asham wrote a sack that's so fascinating yashev wrote that when a lady comes to bed just for a guest for nothing else she doesn't want her subah she doesn't want momminess she's just coming for her gut just coming for her get that is a denture between her and hashem yoshi brings arya when and aguna comes to bed and it says mace bailey i don't know where my husband is and the gemara has a discussion is this an entirety between her and her husband because she's going to be taking super from her husband's property anymore and she's also now going to get remarried do we look at it as a demon moment as an entire we can't pass it until the husband shows up which is his contradiction to the cancer level or no do we say we could we'll accept it and turn the command says no it's a demon of fascists we can accept the husband's not a party over here or we ask this isn't the case where a husband is insider of lovely lady so you ask them to come forward you asked the comfort and he says not your atlanta pascal chalet before without our husband being there and this has been discussed many times in the position there are numerous troops about this topic from their abundant television wrote about this a 40-page tube about this explaining this really ashamed many person wrote about this rabli ashraf ended off with a maram shikh that says you still have to try your best to speak to the husband also to hear both sides just for transparency reasons so when devorah calls a rob she's asking for the ralph pascal without my husband being there there's not even listen to her story without trying to reach out to the other of because the mar says that smith shakatarika near one side without the other we reached out we spoke to aaron he's he's he's a great person he's a good person aaron's a good person who has a lot of trauma we just need to get through tim we spent hours he has a lot a lot of complaints a lot of kindness against the world and again specifically this case we're not going to get into too much detail and we have to push him we have to push him to give the guest but i could say from being involved from speaking to aaron and speaking to vora that i believe aaron is the person that deep down wants to give a get now of course we have to push him to go to bed and barack hashem the protest made a move that way that he's willing to go to bed and of course he signed with a lot of conditions that he's going to go to boston which a person doesn't have the right to do you have conditions we discussed this maharashtra which we're not even getting into detail conditions to discuss when the gut should be given but the conditions to go to bed and you don't have the right to do bezen of america wrote a seraph which gave them to permission to make make up sack without him being there um now in the in the 11th hour he's saying he wants to go to bazin which is a little bit mafia they already separated for a long enough time that ramaisha feinstein rabino yurukhum reprinte and many of the daily preschool and including the emotional finances after a certain amount of separation we don't push on bias anymore we don't it's very sad i have men who call me and tell me i'm telling you my wife's gonna come back i'm they promise me they cry in my office i want to cry with them i'm just as sad as they are seven eight years i have somebody now 11 years i wish he's listening to this message 11 years has told me that he promises me his wife's coming back he doesn't understand he has such a narcissistic personality disorder he doesn't understand and he always screams to me how come you're not pushing the same way you're pushing me to give a get how come you're not pushing her for selling bias and i say because your moisture to chew on among any many good daily price can that have a certain amount of time even if the husband is a perfect person we force them to give a gap because she's not coming back and if she's not coming back you're being made of not supporting her properly and she's allowed to move on you're holding her back from getting remarried and you're allowed to force these people out of dignity you're stealing their dignity because they're entitled to say that i don't want to continue to be married to you and as badly or as much as you claim to be in love with me it takes two it takes two parties and and i'm moving on so why can't devota or some of the other circumstances that are going on right now that people know and everyone should continue their efforts to free these women who finally no longer feel so isolated and alone and even of those who have not yet received their get at least what they've received is the support of the community the visibility the empathy which all goes an enormous enormous way as well so why can't dvor or these other women say i refuse to go to a basement i'm not finding borrowing arbitration just give the get there's nothing to hear we're civilly divorced we're fully separated according to emotion for that length of time that it's irreconcilable that we're not getting back together so i'm not going to participate in based in i was willing to do that two years ago a year ago six months ago but now we're at a point give the get there's nothing more to talk about can we be rallying and pushing and showing up and saying there are no conditions there's no negotiation there's no longer room for bayes then to decide whether a get should be given it's black and white it's obvious you've moved on with your life your lifestyle the way you're conducting your life you clearly are not acting as somebody who sees himself as still married so therefore give the get wha why does why does she need to agree to go to bayesian altogether she does it's a good question she doesn't need to agree to go to beds and the way bessen's created in america is any rev who decides that he wants to have a basin is allowed to make he's allowed to say he has a bed that's clear in halacha it used to be and ripley ash is still held very strongly in that even america used to be you need something called zion to the ear the members of a community they ran the community they need to have a certain type of leadership which we almost don't have in most communities they appoint the best and nowadays any rough could become a better thing a lady has to go to a rub and she has to say hi i want i want to tell you a story and i want to leave such a marriage now why does she have to speak to her off the road it's not any ladies allowed to leave a marriage whenever she wants if a lady doesn't have an excuse from her commitment that she gave her husband that she's going to stay married and she doesn't have a proper reason why she's leaving then that is that that lady is considered rebellious what does that mean a lady who just finds another man in the street and says you know what i'm done with my husband i'd rather be with this guy and the husband did nothing wrong he treated the marriage the way he was supposed to treat and she's the one who's rebelling from the commitment of marriage the halaq is that the husband doesn't have to support that wife anymore he doesn't have to support that wife that allah is supposed to give that wife a guest because she's going to be with somebody else and we don't want that that that's halal ish but the husband still let him pursue the marriage he's allowed to try his best he's allowed to try to convince her for a certain amount of time after that time is done we say now you're forced to give a gun it's not going to happen you guys are not getting back together that time is supposed to be revolutionized is supposed to be given over to a dying a dying should decide did you pursue is there still any chance is this going to work now he could do it by looking talking to the lady he could do by meeting them both together if the couple gives them permission he's allowed to meet with each party separately uh verbiage and ibs writes that clearly in similar design and they're allowed to make any deal to hear the dispute but in certain cases a husband says i'm not willing to talk i'm not willing to talk to rav so dear in those cases the rob gives him an opportunity a certain amount of time to show up to the table which is called the has mana the besan or the rav sends out a hazmat if the husband doesn't show up they say he's a massage he's not coming here he's not coming in there a lot of past can chile the funnel they're allowed to hear the white side and then say the story it could be they can tell the wife i'm sorry based on your story we're still going to allow the husband to pursue sean baez i have many cases where ladies come to me tell me their story and i say i understand you want to get divorced personally i'm sharing with you that i think you're making a mistake but if your husband comes to me he says he wants to pursue you and run after you and try to convince you to come back together i'm going to give him that opportunity why not i think he's i think he would be doing a stupid move by just giving you up right and just moving on but how much time do we allow that we don't allow that seven years we don't allow that relationship says more than a year replying he said 18 months and you have to understand that was 18 months where they didn't have cell phones they didn't have phones they didn't have a whatsapp and communication was probably done once every month and the european palagi allowed 18 months when they're living in two different cities the dionym have to say how much time is needed but when the husband doesn't show up the doesn't have to pass it without him there and i think that's very important to become public but the demon or abundant have to start tasking right away that means they have to call up the husband say do you want to show up within six weeks do you want to show up within two months you want to show within three days whatever time this dying feels is necessary based on his understanding of relationships but if the husband says yeah great hear both sides if the husband says no hear the wife's side probably astrid learns up that this is dining a fascist this is not dinimus it's very important a goodness of fascist so it's a very important point you're making because it there are people who oversimplify this in both directions there are those who say that once a woman she wakes up one morning she says i no longer want to be married to this guy and if he doesn't give a get by this that afternoon she's in aguna and that's an oversimplification which is really a disservice in one direction there is halacha there is a process he is entitled to a certain amount of time so in oversimplification the direction that says any woman doesn't get her get within five minutes is in aguna and is entitled to the community support rallies protest and he is a villain is an unfair oversimplification in one direction when maybe the husband does deserve a certain amount of time or for the sake of shalom truth children family there should be some space and some margin to see whether there can be reconciliation on the other hand there's the oversimplification of the other direction which is what we're suffering from a little bit right now of people who take the sources of khan that you've been so seamlessly sharing and and manipulating those sources to say almost indefinitely no and this and that in this region and that acronym and based in sac and kefia and therefore he's done nothing wrong right you've told me that behind every magen behind every man not giving a get is a rav a dayan or a baysdan who is protecting him misquoting sources to support him or who's contributing to the manipulation of the system right many of these men are not knowledgeable or well-versed enough to be able to manipulate the system on their own behind every ma'again behind every man not giving a get is a basement or a rabbi or a diane who is enabling that person by providing certain sources and oversimplifying in the other direction and that's why the system really needs credible people with integrity sensitivity um modesty humility who are care about all the components and all the variables who will navigate the halacha the protocols the common sense the psychology and we'll say here's enough margin to see whether something can be reconciled but it's also going to be a very short rope because we're not going to let women who deserve to move on with their lives become stuck and paralyzed indefinitely that's grossly unfair and a disservice unjust to them so there are people who conveniently will oversimplify in both directions but the truth is in a very nuanced way in between and it needs knowledgeable and credible people but this is one of those situations where with the nuance with the time with the effort with the countless attempts at mediation everything has been tried so the public those who are still listening need to know that um again the serum is still in place the basin of america is confirmed and confirmed yes aaron did sign a binding arbitration with a bayes den but he signed it on his terms with his conditions and zvora has not agreed to those that's not the venue that she took him to she took him to the basin of america he and his towing have absolutely ignored and neglected the basin of america and instead tried to pivot to another business thing by signing a barbecue binding arbitration that's very favorable to him with his conditions and it tries to show the world oh he's the good guy now he's cooperating she's not cooperating but it's simply not true she's cooperated she's asked him to participate he's thumbed his nose he's said no countless times and now in the 11 and a half hour he's going to his own based in with his own conditions that she decided are unfair and while there are ongoing conversations and negotiations very important to say there are ongoing conversations can they find a place where they will both agree how to proceed but simultaneously it is critically important to keep the pressure up so if you're listening if you're watching keep that pressure up post on social media there's going to be a rally in lakewood where aaron is staying protesting our own directly please stay posted please uh become aware of when that rally will be and should go into up for a second yes what you mentioned before you know on the first on the first uh video chat that we did i try to stay very very politically correct um after getting the numerous amount of whatsapps text messages and emails i realized that it doesn't really make a difference everybody's gonna understand whatever whatever they want to hear and whatever they want to understand in their own way but with misunderstanding i want to say something that that to me is so interesting and i want to really call out um there's been many people who have posted videos i get i get emails and lots of chats from husbands who never are part of groups that deal with parental alienation which is a whole topic that that doesn't need to be dealt with where fathers lately and don't get to see their children in certain cases it's it's such such a a i don't even know what the word is it's it's terrible um it's still not an excuse and i i want to discuss that but one of the people who they go to discusses the topic of git and actually put out a contrast it was written anonymously i'm not sure who put it out it's called um i think pumas you could actually find it find it online which bashes the succumb from the dionym and the rabbit how they passed and when a husband is forced to give a gut and when not and um one of the succumb that the rabbi uses is upset from robin your home which we said were emotionally functioning quotes or cryptology many points can quote that when you're separated for a certain amount of time and there's no chance of selling by force the husband to give a gap and they write that nobody passes like this revenue and they quote the police king who disagree with robin you're saying we don't pass connect and one of the points can be quoted is the divorce malkiel in all their contracent that came out against these gifts and they quoted different malkiel and i was very i wanted to see the different monkey inside i didn't know about it and the different malkiel is talking about a case vice versa it's where a lady didn't want to accept to get and the husband said hey it's more than a year and she said i want closure i want to understand why this is not working i won't understand what's being done and they write on the haitian revenue the white deserves closure and we don't use the urban european to pressure her to accept the gap these people took that rabbini you reckon they flipped it around they said hey you've seen the difficulties we don't pass like you're being yeah we just explained the wife is the one that needs closure when she's accepting yet something's happening to her she's the one who's who's getting the force the husband's not getting divorced of course we might not use her being you're welcome to force to get upon the wife but the husband many players can use their banner you come and i don't wanna get into people are gonna start sending me emails who doesn't quote their venue it's a huge suggestion discusses this topic revenue in the pisces which is a sacrament wrote himself so nobody could say he meant it he didn't meet it everyone should take a look at it it's on hebrew books the biscuits has page 222 where lyasha discusses clearly when a marriage is over it's such an important topic and yeah people abuse the topic i've seen people who are good people and they'll send me and they're in pain they're all in pain a lot of them some some of them haven't seen their children properly the way they would like divorce is a very painful thing we're not we're not saying it's not it's extremely painful but that pain you have two ways of using it you've used you can use that pain to grow from your mistakes and become a better person or you can use that pain to allow the it's hard to govern every one of your emotions and sometimes you need to hear dresses with a beard and a very hostile capata and a very big up hat and he has a sign on his door and he tells people and it's very very very sad because the terrorist makes perfect sense and when i see people quote certain stuff i think they think we live in yemen or or in certain muslim communities and i hope this is not not politically correct to say but i i think they think that the turtle has a different relationship of husband and wives and we our perfect set we follow it but if we corrupt it it's a samhain of us if we corrupt it you're making such an important point because i myself have received such an education about tauanim and bhatte din and and certain asconum over the last uh six weeks two months and there's a lot of corruption a lot of corruption and there's a lot of shallow shema and there's a lot of manipulation it's very very painful to see but and it's what the navi it's what the navy mourns i have a greater appreciation of of have torahs over the last six weeks than i ever have even i've taught of shabbos agado where they they say and before uh tisha b'av lama lee rosham you're shocking you're davening it's all beautiful but take care of the widow and the orphan take care of mishpot and staka have justice and righteousness because the corruption is is really unbearably painful to see i also want to make a comment on the parental alienation that you said and i want to correct which with devoto's permission would never want to air such a laundry in public but only because there are lies being told so there are people who are defending our own behavior saying he's not allowed to see his children what do you want him to do that's all he can do is withhold the get in order to be able to get to see his children he's not allowed to see his children first of all right now he has two of his three children for three weeks for three weeks he has two of his three children they're with him full time the entire time there's no alienation there's no denial he has his children for three straight weeks traveled with them they're with him a b he withheld the get for significant time even before there was an order of protection regarding the third child when it comes to the third child it's not the voter there's a judge who put in place an order of protection for whatever circumstances that are there that please god reconciliation will take place everybody agrees including devorah that her daughter is better off at the father in his life she wants her in his life but in a safe way that everyone's comfortable with healing with therapy and with the ability to reconcile she wants that everybody wants that please god that will happen but right now there's an order of protection regarding the third child but here's the thing i don't refuse to give the get before there was an evident order of protection when custody was split when it all the time that he wanted when he was enjoying all the time that he deserved with his children he still refused to give to get so anyone who defends him anyone who gets behind him and says he is entitled to use the get as leverage to extort or to exploit or because he wants to get his children back he's had his children all along with his third child only recently there's an order of protection and please god it will be reversed and he'll be able to be with that third child as well but he was withholding to get long before this order of protection ever began and therefore clearly it's not connected to the children at all so it's a very real issue parental alienation and it's a horrible thing whenever i meet with couples who are getting divorced which unfortunately is too often i always say the same line to them before we even begin i say to them love your children more than you hate one another you have a choice do you love your children more than you dislike the other or are you going to allow your dislike of the other to supersede the love of your children because your children deserve parents who can get along who can cooperate for their sake so you have a choice to make so parentalization is a terrible terrible thing and it's better for children to have their parents most of the time almost all the time in their lives except for extreme circumstances so you're right deserves to be addressed another time but this is not a case of it and nor is this a excuse to not give the get because he wasn't giving to get long before there was this issue with the third child a hundred percent and uh and again we're telling i spend many i mean now now aaron probably looks at me as an enemy i haven't spoken to him since we you know we here we heard the video i spent a lot of time with certain friends of iron who really were trying to help him give a gift and then there were certain friends who really weren't trying to help and i think it's very important i heard this many times from a mayor stern my rebbe when i discussed with him gittin and different topics and he sometimes tells me he says this boy thinks he has friends does he realize that any friend who's giving someone advice that's contrary to the torah it's not a friend it's an enemy they're giving bad advice because they want to maybe stay friends with him they wanted to like him that's not friends aaron if you're listening to this i can tell you honestly me and robbie goldberg are your friends that we really really want you to do the right thing we really believe that your life will turn out better and we'll be better by you moving forward you're going to find another wife you're going to build a beautiful relationship with your children you're going to build a nice relationship with your ex-wife but as an ex-wife as a wife you can't get along it didn't work out you guys were not able to get along as a husband and wife and therefore we know you want to give a get just give the get and you'll be able to move on and have you'll have closure the voter will have closure your children will have closure and you'll build a beautiful family but a family that's being built on majorities on fighting is not a family it's not a family it's not a life it's the worst thing in the world besides supposed to be doesn't it's supposed to be marvelous if you go to bed and you're creating the mahalakas that the best should create shalom not much and if the whole business system is about mahlik's about fighting and it looks like we're hearing on social media then we're making the mistake we're not bringing mashiach that way we believe and this is what you're buying business hashem knows that's what's sitting we look at ghazal tell is to do the right thing and in this case it's to give a gap it's so well said and it's a perfect place to leave it this was a long video update but it was really important to understand not only the specifics of this case but many of the principles and the rules in general for people who are unfamiliar with them how the system works and why it works and if khan we thank you for your expertise and sharing it with us and i i can't echo strongly enough everything that you said which is that neither of us have anything against our own we know our own and we love our own and we want our own to do the right thing and we'd love to get back to that to that place and if aaron claims that there are financial differences that he deserves different than what the civil court determined you're entitled to go to base and to do that nobody's telling you you're not entitled to pursue what you think are your financial rights in base then go and pursue them and if devorah were to not cooperate with bayes then we'd be the first to be encouraging and pressuring her in that circumstance in that situation however the get cannot be an obstacle the gate cannot be leveraged it's time it's time to let her move on and to reap all the benefits and rewards derby khan spoke about so beautifully we want to wish everyone a good moment we want to wish all lagunas that should be able to go free on this to experience freedom and redemption in the taka we're all able to enjoy shalom that we can enjoy peace and harmony in our families and in our communities thank