Real Recovery Stories: Practical Lessons for Us All

[Music] good evening and welcome everyone my name is rabbi from goldberg and i have the privilege of serving as one of the rabbis the book raton synagogue and it's an honor to have you join us for this critically important conversation a conversation that we hope will begin tonight but will continue and continue at communities across not only america but around the world addressing a topic that is critically important for us to be concerned about sensitive to and to do everything we can to support going forward i'm truly honored to be joined by my dear friend moshe yachness who is the founder and director of onward living as well as several other rehab programs and a leader in this area and to be joined by my new friends moshe f and udb who have tremendous courage being with us sharing their stories their insights for us to learn from not simply to listen to uh voyeuristically or vicariously but to listen to and to learn from so that we could be best positioned to help people going forward we are really excited tonight to be launching a combination or a collaboration between the boca raton synagogue and onward living but we're hoping will really be a pilot program which is emulated and which is reproduced as we say around the country and around the world onward living is an amazing recovery uh program we'll hear more about from its founder moshe uh momentarily right now it's for men and that's why our panelists are men this evening but it's constantly expanding and growing and serving uh the broad needs of the jewish community and beyond and the new program that we're launching is called adapt it's a collaboration of boca raton synagogue a vibrant active center of spirituality of jewish life jewish learning jewish living and the onward uh living recovery program uh who historically many who are in recovery have been ostracized or driven away they are distanced from their community sometimes from family sometimes it's leadership in the religious community who are even partially responsible for what drove them towards a life of substance use and abuse and the ability to remarry and reconnect the ability to provide a source of support of a jewish community with those in recovery is what this program is all about and it couldn't happen without the generosity of our dear friends the wine pearls who are sponsoring this pilot program in memory of their beloved son jonathan johnny was a a really remarkable young man who unfortunately fell prey to this illness to this challenge and left this world way too soon but not before leaving an impact not only on his family who loved him but on his students and on the community everybody knew him he was a gentle soul a gentle giant and in some ways his soul was almost too good it couldn't bear the pain and the injustice of this world and in the attempt to try to navigate that he uh was unable to and lost that battle and left this world and his family the wine pearls really amazing people as part of their grieving have decided to dedicate and to support this initiative and we're incredibly incredibly grateful to them and so we thank you from the bottom of our hearts community addiction can't be swept under the the rug there can't be stigma and there can't be shame it's in the backdrop of shame it's in the shadows of shame that moshe has taught me for a long time that unfortunately this behavior takes place and it becomes compounded and the more that we pull it out from under the carpet and even are willing to share a spotlight which is what we're doing in this conversation this evening the more that we can take away the shame and people can get the help that they need or avoid falling into the problem to begin with or find the support and the love and the sensitivity that they deserve and that's our role that's our responsibility community leaders educators parents and all members of the community all together a community is supposed to be a safe space a warm and welcoming and non-judgmental place for people to come to even with their challenges and imperfections because which of us don't have those it's a place that we should be loved for who we are and that's what this new initiative and relationship are all about for the boca raton synagogue for brs to be that place and that destination for those who are in the onward living program as part of their recovery to see as part of the solution not part of the problem it's part of a support system not something antagonizing ostracizing or driving away and so tonight uh we're gonna hear their incredible stories moshe and yuri who courageously are gonna share them with us and we'll have a conversation to learn more about what we can take away we have the expertise of moshiachnis as i mentioned really recognized around the world as an expert in authority in this area and a leader in this area and we'll close by telling you more about the program and for those families who want to sign up who would like to get involved in this partnership and this collaboration we welcome eagerly everyone's efforts because it takes a community before we begin and turn it over to our panelists uh want to welcome moshe yachtiness moshe opening thoughts thank you thank you rabbi thank you first of all thank you all for joining and listening this evening um it's it's your work and your allocation of time that allows us to continue doing what we do um and thank you mosha for your courage and yuri for your courage of sharing your stories this evening and of course rabbi goldberg thank you for really being a leader in opening up the shul's doors and and you know encouraging families to get involved in so many levels in so many ways we appreciate it so much and on behalf of the individuals that can express thank you we i say thank you for them um and of course the juan pearls um you know this program is is uh yonatan ezra ben avraham and i had the opportunity to sit in the dining room the wine pearls dining room and speaking with jonathan's sister and and his mom and his dad and just sitting there in the dining room was was really empowering to me because i saw a family that was committed to doing what they can recognizing that there's a deep issue in our community and you know we're super excited we'll talk a little bit more later down in the program about what the initiative is the adopt program but i just want to acknowledge their work and their partnership in this as well so thank you and um i guess we'll we'll pass it take it from there thank you so yuri we're going to begin with you thank you again so much for being with us thank you for the courage to share and tell us a little bit about your background your story and why you're here okay first of all it's an honor to be here um my name is yuri 36 years old i'm a grateful recovering addict um so i i guess my story you know i what starts starts off pretty pretty normal i grew up in chicago two brothers two sisters uh religious family uh went to pretty religious school elementary school and then continued on to you know yeshiva um in new jersey and then in miami and then on to uh you know to israel for a couple years in the mirror and um you know i would say that from from the start um i was a little bit different you know than everybody else um in elementary school i was the kid who had the tv in the house um and that you know followed me throughout elementary school um then when i went to yeshiva followed you in the way others looked at you and the way you thought of yourself you know in the way others looked at me the way i was treated the way rabem you know comments that were made and just you know it was just like it was a known thing which which in turn made me feel you know like a little bit like i didn't belong and then you know going on to yeshiva there was a certain standard you know that was set with other kids in my class and just the way it was that you wanted to go to a good you know a good yeshiva with a good reputation and so there was that pressure to do that um you know and the same thing really continued there you know i i had my ups and downs uh in yeshiva out of shiva and to the next one i'm just trying to you know find my footing which you know it turned out it was not it was not easy um and then you know before i knew it i was back in america after going to israel i was 20 years old within a month or two i was engaged wow married at 20 had my first child before 21 and uh you know before i knew it i was 25 years old married with three kids three beautiful daughters and you know just the pressures of life um at that point you know caught up to me i would say um also at that time i uh i had a i had a lap band surgery um and i lost about 150 pounds wow and so that was really the first time in my life that i really felt this confidence about myself you know and at this point i was working traveling for work you know i had some money um and i guess i started you know at that point i just something inside of me said you know what like it's time to live a little bit and so you know how did you cope in those years before when you felt like the outsider and you felt judged and you were going from yeshiva to yeshiva you just kept it you bottled it up inside yeah i mean i really there was there was really nothing and nobody that you know that i felt you know that i could open up to about it um so you were lonely would loneliness be the word you would describe i would say yeah lonely and probably just a little bit of shame as well um so you know i i decided at the age of 25 that i was going to live life the way i wanted to live life at that point you know i felt that i had done everything that everyone expected me to do i had tried and you know i had a family and but i just didn't feel like i was you know getting my what i wanted from life and so that's when it's you know things started for me uh traveling a lot you know i was introduced to uh certain drugs and and that really started a 10-year uh run of just drugs alcohol you know partying being away from my family and basically manipulating everybody around me and every situation work family friends to to make it work so that i could do what i wanted to do now i didn't go overnight from the very first time you tried a drug or had your drink to a life of addiction so how did it spiral how did it escalate so i mean what it really spiraled from recreational drug use and having fun to addiction and no longer having any fun at about the age of 29 30 when i i had a a business deal that went bad uh something i'd been working for my whole professional life and you know with some people in the community and it just it went south and all of a sudden i was on the outside you know looking in back to where i had been several years before and so at that point i became the victim um and my drug use turned from fun recreational let's go let's let's travel you know turn the from that into a i'm not happy i'm you know i'm the victim i and that became my my best friend you know um and it quickly turned from going out and having fun to really being isolated and just being by myself for several years uh using drugs without any you know regard for for anything else that was going on it's an amazing thing because we went from using the word loneliness to that the drug was your best friend so the vacuum or the whole was the sense of loneliness and what was filled with the friendship became the drug i don't know if you're comfortable sharing what drugs it was or how somebody gets exposed to or got them or how it escalated and how are you able to to balance life how are you functioning as a husband and a father and still working what with the drug use the people around you know about it were they challenging you were in denial about it or were you able to somehow pull it all off uh well i would say that um the drug use started with you know started with some marijuana and then it escalated to par some party drugs you know ecstasy mali um and once that started um that was that was the fun phase for me um then it ended up escalating into cocaine and crack cocaine and that was really the last two or three years of my using um where it was no longer fun it was something i had to do and then as far as you know juggling how did i do it i thought i was the the world's greatest you know juggler uh for several years i mean nobody really knew um definitely did not know that i was using drugs and using you know those types of drugs and at the level i was towards the end you know family knew something was going on they didn't know exactly what um but yeah my life every day was waking up trying to figure out okay how am i going to be able to do what i have to do and use drugs and still manage to pay the bills and be there as a father be there as a husband and you know i would say for a long time i i just got by you know barely by the skin of my teeth and making everything stay you know juggling and keeping everything afloat um but with like most things you know there comes there comes a day of reckoning and uh you know when that day came it was um you know i ended up in the hospital um woke up with my family surrounding me my siblings my parents my wife uh and the secret there was no secret anymore it was an overdose what did it happen uh yeah it wasn't i mean it was an overdose yeah um i went out and i just got out of control and you know passed out in the uber and the uber driver had to call the paramedics and yeah then that's how i ended up in uh in rehab for the first time so you know that was the beginning of my journey through you know recovery um it didn't take the first or second time that i was in rehab um and that's when you know my family was introduced to moshe and um i ended up coming down to florida to onward living and that was really that was the turning point for me um not i didn't come without first kicking and screaming in the beginning i fought you know the program for a couple weeks you know at every turn um i didn't you know i was at that time 34 years old with three kids um and i had you know financially i was you know i was taken care of in chicago so i didn't want to live in a house with a bunch of 20 something year old single guys you know and go get you know go get a job i ended up getting a job at a warehouse you know filling online orders um for seven something dollars an hour um at that point i felt that all that was beneath me you know that this is you know this is not i'm i shouldn't be be doing this um but you know looking back on it really what it was is that i was scared you know i didn't i didn't know if i could do it i didn't think i could go to a warehouse for five six hours a day and work um because although i had been working in chicago again i had been manipulating everything to my advantage so i was very comfortable and so this you know program at onward really took me out of my comfort zone and pushed me to do things that i was not comfortable doing um but that was you know where i was able to slowly you know build the confidence that i can do this you know i can i can do what millions of people do every single day you know and feel good about it what was different about onward from the other times that you had gone to rehab why did the others fail and why thank god and please god is this one succeeding well i think that um i think that the first the first couple times i did rehab i was really not i didn't think it was as bad as everyone was making it out to be so i i don't think my the desire was there to you know to get clean and do anything about it um once i ended up in onward at some point it hit me you know just how bad it was and where i was and what my life had become um and then it was just a matter of either accepting that and trying to fix it or continuing to fight and at that point i was just too tired to fight anymore so i decided to you know let's let's try it um and you know onward combining the the clinical side of rehab with you know the real life experiences of going and getting a job uh living in a house where we have responsibilities together with doing marriage counseling with moshe and my wife on a weekly basis and then some family work as well of my parents and different things you know that was the beginning of i was in onward for about four months and you know before i got there my marriage was in turmoil is is you know an understatement um but by the time i came back to chicago it was at the point where i was committed my wife was committed to making it work and so everything that happened at onward you know put me in a position to be able to go back home to chicago and you know continue to you know get my life back on track four months is a long time and it's important for the people watching to know that just like these problems don't happen overnight they're also not healed overnight and you don't go to a rehab for a day or a week or a month but it takes it takes a while and yet she and they were patient i have so many questions but i know that we also have a lot more to cover but but let me ask you this could you talk for a moment about the role of of of your family when you woke up in the hospital and they were around your bed um what kind of support do you think family i don't want to ask you about your family in particular unless you want to share but what what's important for somebody who's going through this to see or receive from their family what role if any the community played did you have a relationship with any robonaut many rabbis did they check on you did they connect with you do you turn to them still for support what were the reactions of the people around you so i'm very lucky that my family was extremely supportive um like i said i woke up in the hospital and everybody was there and at that point everybody knew what i had been doing um and you know my wife was was standing right there and instead of you know using that as a as a you know as an as an out you know to say i just i can't do this anymore because things hadn't been good as it was um she didn't you know my parents uh just kept telling me over and over that they love me and they they're they're here for me and you know if i'm gonna do this they'll support me so i was very lucky in that you know in that regard um as far as community um not not really uh i have one rebbe that was my 10th grade there was review in the community who who linked me up with moshe and onward uh so you know appreciated him for that so last question because again i said we have so much to talk to we could really do this for hours and i think it'd be interesting and and instructive to the people listening tell us where you are now how's it going so now i'm uh i'm about two and a half years clean um i'm living in chicago with my wife and kids uh things are great i just moved into a new house in may um and what i could say is that i'm just you know life is not easy you know it's not perfect uh there's ups and downs there's challenges all the time but the main difference is that you know like i'm in the game you know i can i can manage things that are that are tough and that are hard um as opposed to before where i used to just run away from it i have a sponsor i work 12-step program i'm actually working part-time now in a in the rehab facility that i went to several years ago you know as a technician helping other you know people try to uh to get recovery so it really is like a full 180. um you know i'm on my ninth step right now which is making amends and you know i've been doing that with several family members and really close friends and it's just amazing to see you know the impact that that i had on a lot of people when i was in my addiction and you know to see now how how different it is is amazing it's really an amazing story nudie thank you so much for the courage to share it with us and you should continue to have success and happiness and joy and good health in every in every which way and it's also another important lesson is that even when after four months in rehab and you come home and things are well you're never done it's a problem that's always managed and never ever conquered and the continual using the work in the program and so on and its success is is critical and the moment you drop out you think that you're done you've conquered it is when you become vulnerable again moshe f yes thank you for being with us as well thank you for the courage to share your story and um tell us tell us a little bit about yourself okay well first uh yuri thank you very much for sharing your story um thank you moshe for having me on and thank you rabbi for having the courage to reach out to um the recovery community and to uh help help the community as much as possible my name is moshe i'm 24 years old and i guess i'll just start with some basic background i was born in new york went to pretty religious schools growing up i moved to miami with my family in 2003. it was at that point where i noticed something very strange happening where i felt i felt like everyone around me had read a certain manual on how to live life how to deal with situations and for some reason i wasn't given this manual i always felt like there was one degree of like a difference between me and everyone else um but that it never really manifested itself um in anything yet but i can i always i always felt like a little bit different i felt like i was on the outside um i always felt like people were either judging me or uh keeping something from me uh and around i would say probably like you know middle school um i really know the those those differences though well i really should say those feelings started to really grow and became more intense and um i guess i would say like the first time where i would i turned to like an external source for comfort and for really something to fill a void was you know i was i was always constantly watching tv like that you know like it was you know that was my first thing was was tv it was like constant you know the escape it was like you know whenever i had a chance that was that's what it would be um and also it was food it was constantly eating to just numb pain or emotion or either even whether i was happy whether i was sad depressed any emotion that i felt i had to i had to use actually either watch something or eat something with that um and then i went to a several different yeshivas uh throughout high school um around around ninth grade i kind of came to like this realization that i didn't want i didn't want the whole the whole whole jewish thing i just didn't want it i just i i felt like i think there was like a sense of um there was a sense of if i can't if i can't do everything meaning that if i can't follow everything the way that it's supposed to be done then i shouldn't do it at all because what's the point and i i i tried constantly to like move from place to place um thinking that you know if i would if i would go from this from this yeshiva to like a little more lean yeshiva and then i'll i'll slowly try to get myself out of the entire shiva system that i would be happy did you ever speak to anybody was there a rebbe a teacher a family member that you said here's where i'm coming from here's where i'm at is there another approach to judaism am i wrong in my thinking that it's all or nothing and if you reached out did people respond so i think there were people that i could have reached out to but the fact is i didn't know how to elaborate what i was feeling it was it was still a very new feeling to me and i did i didn't know how to explain it you know it just how how did i explain how do i explain something like this it just and i also there were other kids around me who felt the same way you know and they were going through the same struggles um so i i it almost felt like it was normal um but i know how that manifested itself and how that how i dealt with that might have been different at around 10th and 11th grade um what happened was i think i identified for myself a kind of lifestyle or um way of life that okay you know this is what i this is you know what how i want to live my life this is how i want to go um and you know that was around that was around friends certain friends that would hang out with and um and their lifestyle and along with that lifestyle came um you know drugs and alcohol and and the so but what happens is is that the first you know the first time i used it was you know it was it was great you know it was nice and i i told myself okay fine this this is the epitome this is like the apex this is like what i'm living for i have to work each night i go to school i work i do all these things so that you know i can just enjoy my enjoy life this is the reward this is what you're doing right right so i found it and i found the answer this is you know my entire life now revolves around feeling good um so by the end of the end of 12th grade um you know i was in i was in another school and uh that's really when my you know i you know as i was getting older the freedom i had more freedom and that's when the usage picked up and then i went to unto israel for a year and a half and in israel that's that's really when uh i think my usage spelled out of control um how do you understand why people around you didn't see that was happening how were you able to get through high school how were you able to be in israel for a year and a half and no one saw a usage that was spiraling out of control they didn't see signs or symptoms or confront you or well i would say for most of my high school um the use it wasn't it wasn't terrible like it was you know it was recreational and and i think the it wasn't like it wasn't like i was you know i was you know knows and i was always high i was always drunk it was you know maybe maybe i was unhappy maybe i wasn't i wasn't i never felt content um maybe those were signs but then again you know what what teenager really is you know you know really truly happy and content with what they're doing so you know it's easy to just pass it off as yeah it's just a stage you know they're just you know he's just going through something you know he'll find himself um and israel was the same thing you were able to well in israel it's it's you know part of the culture you know you have the culture is you know you know the guys go out you know they have fun and they come back and you know they do what they have to do and um you know i would say that you know in my second year you know i kind of was faced with a decision that i've been you know that that's come up throughout my life well it was okay moshe you got a point now you can either choose to you know viewers take responsibility for your life and um [Music] admit that you know admit certain emit certain truths and come to terms with the fact that you know life isn't all about you know just having fun and enjoying yourself and that there are other things that you have to do or you know i wasn't or you're not ready to give that up yet and you're just you know you want to continue on the path you know that on the path that you were on um and i remember clearly you know what you know when it was what happened i just it was i came to a crossroad you know you know make a decision and i just i left and i just went home and you know you know hindsight is 20 20. you know what would have happened if i would have stayed maybe i would have you know finished my unit as well and i would have gone a different path but that's not what happened at that point i wasn't ready to take that step um so then i came home and i had all these ideas of grandeur that you know what i'm gonna do i'm gonna get a job i'm gonna work and you know i'm gonna have a huge house with you know all these nice cars going you know i'm gonna party all the time and it's just gonna be it's gonna be great and then uh i think you know the next day i got home and and i just got high and then from that from that for the next i think three years it was it was a constant struggle to even uh you know do the slide to do anything that was productive it was you know i you know i might have done some i might have gotten a job here or there but you know all that all those ideas that were in my head what i'm gonna do with myself just went out the window and i it came to a point where i you know i wouldn't even i wouldn't want to even want to leave my room um i remember one i remember towards the end like this was the feeling that i had that my my father came into my room he's like no she had to get up and i'm like he's like yeah you know you know you have you know you do something he's like i remember i'm like the the how the walls of my house were poisoning me that's what i said i said i felt i felt that every second that i was alive that it was it felt so heavy and burdensome and you know i and and i couldn't do anything about it you know i i there there were times where like you felt i felt you felt like you're you're you're having an out of body experience where you you don't want to do something and your body is going through the motions of doing you know habit where it's just it's already a habit um and then after a certain point i remember my parents came over to me they said uh you need help and i remember my initial reaction was no way but in my head i said thank god somebody finally uh well they definitely realize that an issue before but somebody's finally taking action because i i did not have the courage or the strength to admit on myself by myself that i had i had an issue so and that's you know within a week um my parents were introduced to mo and um and i went to onward and i was there for six months yeah that's amazing thank you so much for sharing with us as well um mo moshe athens there's so much to learn from but let me let me ask you in this way um i've had the privilege a few times to to attend aaa meetings to give people a medallion for some milestone they had reached and i remember once one of the members standing up and she described she said you know everyone in this room were all damaged that was the word she used and i remember sitting there as an observer thinking the exact opposite the people outside this room they're the damaged ones the ones who don't know they have the addiction the ones who aren't confronting it the ones who aren't working on it the ones still walking around lonely and numbing themselves with these really unhealthy things the people in the room who are working the program and who are really genuine and authentic and in touch with themselves they're the ones who aren't damaged it's heroic and and this is not a new teaching it's of course hazal you're you're warriors the two of you are our heroes and the battle the daily grind and it's never over you can never move it from the battlefield to conquer territory it's a battle that's going on but that's what makes you heroic and and special so you know is that what you see do you see these two as damaged or undamaged because of of what they're doing and is their story unusual or is it really reflective of what you're doing in your amazing work yeah so it's uh again thank you just taco you know rabbi your words um thank you mosha and yuri for for joining the program this evening and for sharing courageously your stories um and of course thank you again rabbi for really spearheading um opening up your your mind and opening up the shul's doors for for this population and and the people that are struggling and and so desperately want and need the warmth of the shul to re-engage um you know napoleon has a uh there's a story that uh to say about napoleon when he would send out his troops to a new island after the soldiers would arrive at that island they would turn around and burn the ships and you know the i think the messaging behind that is we have no choice we are fighting for survival and you know i think the story of addiction and the story of recovery is that battle where the pain and the destruction left behind is just so untold a person cannot tolerate it anymore and the the courage and the ability to just persevere through all the chaos on a behavioral level on an emotional level um within the family construct is is humongous amounts of energy and strength and that's really a very common theme so to to answer your question where uh yeah the people in the rooms are the most courageous out there um you know far be it from from the outsiders to judge the level of of chaos and and the ability and the strength inner strength to be able to persevere through it and it really sheds some light into those of us around that individual struggling where there's so much judgment made and there's so many um assumptions about what's going on with that person with that individual and if we kind of just look under the hood a little and and peek a little deeper into that person's soul into that person's story we'll see that it really is you know strength and courage behind that so what would your message be there's people watching live or who after the fact are going to listen and they say you know yeti moshe that that's me that's my story i'm lonely i'm an outcast i'm being judged or i have all this visions of grandeur and then i just have no drive i don't i don't get any of it done and i feel like everyone else has a playbook i don't have access to or there's somebody watching or listening who says that's not me but maybe that's explaining my child or my sibling or my spouse because i see those signs in them what would your message be to the person who feels just like just like you and moshe yeah i mean i think that the solution is out there i think that you know it's a two-step process is to really identify what those behaviors represent you know teenagers and young adults speak through behaviors and whether it's isolation whether it's chaotic behaviors inconsistencies that's them telling us that something's bugging them something's wrong there's pain there's discomfort not to look away not to brush it under the rug not to deny that i think is the first step and then the second step is that there's a solution there's a road map through through incorporating some of the some of the concepts of recovery whether it's therapy on an outpatient level on an inpatient level whether it's support through a synagogue or through community members but there's a solution out there there are guys and there are people for for decades on end that have found recovery and that are living a sober happy life so when there's life there's hope and i think that that would be the you know the message it's a two-step identify and then look towards some system to be able to help educate around what the solution is going to be you know i want to ask both of our our panelists and and our expert did this have to happen right hashgraphically or from a bigger picture of philosophical perspective we could say you know it's good that it happened you're both stronger you've learned more about yourselves and it's a good thing it happened in some in some way what i mean by did it have to happen is could the community could those around you have responded earlier have done an intervention have been different in a way that would have identified the very thing that drove you towards that lifestyle earlier on and and met that need so if someone said you know yuri seems like he's lonely he seems like he feels like an outsider how do we reach out is there somebody who could have interacted with you in a different way or emotionally you know someone could say he seems disconnected or detached or step behind you know what can we do to make sure that he feels he belongs because the tragedies we've had in our community and our community is no different than any other that's honest and addressing this very often the the people who who unfortunately end up in a life of addiction or god forbid overdose will describe that even from a young age right you talked about middle school you talked about a young age that feeling different and yet nobody was there nobody identified it and they didn't fit the mold academically spiritually emotionally so what could we be doing for the people today who don't fit that mold today you feel like outcast today who are outsiders who are lonely what can be done can anything be done and if so what can be done and who can do it is it family is it teachers is it community what can we do to both on the one end have a mold because it's important to have a model of what we're aspiring for but on the other hand also recognize that not everybody fits in it or have multiple molds or or react differently so i'm curious to hear from your experience your youth and then and then moshe as an expert in this area uh i mean i would say that you know for myself and for a lot of addicts were very i was very good at hiding a lot of what was going on um for sure once i got older so you know and then as well you know when you go when for example you come you go to shalon shabbos and davening's over and it's time for kiddush and everybody around you is drinking excessively at that point nobody's really looking around and looking and saying okay who who might have a problem you know also there's the education you know i just don't think enough people are aware of what addiction really is and what to see and what to look for you know to to recognize if somebody has a problem um what's interesting is both of your addictions really began before you ever met a substance because you both described what precipitated it what led to it was that loneliness or were those challenges so i guess that's my question is even before you are introduced to the substance that at the time you think is the solution could there have been a different solution could someone so what you're saying is very important is that you hit it well so people around you didn't necessarily know or couldn't have known not necessarily anything they could have done right but i mean you know it's what i'm grateful for at this point is that you know i have three kids and entering their teen years um and because of what i went through and because of my addiction and now being in recovery you know i have a certain and you know knowledge of of how i want to raise my kids and how i want to be there for them the way they need me to be there for them not the way the community thinks they should grow up not the way my neighbor thinks that this is correct this is not correct this school that school it's really about what my child needs you know and that's really where i think the difference is today's day and age we have to be able to look at you know a child and not try to stick them in a certain box and if that doesn't work then you know what all right that's this one's just not going to do as well right you know that's not going to work anymore that's important to point out the different communities have different boxes they try to put people in so for some it's it's a froome box the ishivish box the yeshiva box for others it's the ivy league or bust box you know what would you do on the sats did you get into ivy league how much money are you making what kind of car you drive and a lot in between so it's not one community with one box different communities are trying to put people in different boxes and it's important to love people for where where they're at moshe what what would you say i would say that's a great question like yuri said i i also and most um addicts and alcoholics they're great at adapting they're very good at hiding things and they're very good at manipulating situations people i i think it's very very hard to detect especially in in younger kids you know you know trace or the beginnings of addiction because the very well could just be you know the kids going through a hard time and a lot of times that's what that's what it is it's the kids going through something difficult they're not they're not alcoholics and they don't really have that they just life is happening um the the um the aaa book they said that you know alcoholism and you can you can replace with whatever term you want is really just a spiritual melody that's that's what it is so i i think that if somebody want if somebody really wants to get to the core issue of alcoholism addiction you have to face you have to have a solution for that spiritual malady what what that is that's your job that's not mine so i think moshe i think you're highlighting a very important point you know we have the the vantage point of of seeing you know multiple individuals going through the recovery process and finding sobriety and engaging in their recovery a paradigm and one of the the constants that we see is this point that you're that you're referring to is this this profound loneliness or this void this inability to connect spiritually and you know the argument can be made that spirituality really is about connection right that's that's the definition of spirituality to feel connected to whether it's family whether it's friends whether it's higher power hashem and i think therein lies the answer to the rabbit to what you're asking is you know if if us if we the people around the individual struggling are disconnected right if we're preoccupied by our world our life our distraction and we're not in tune to listening to the needs of the child even at a young age then that that's where the spiral starts to develop and and i can tell you that we've seen you know dozens and dozens and hundreds of people that have been through the programs um that really share that same i don't want to call it the addict profile but that same template definitely exists where there is an inability to to to feel connected and um i think as a community as a family system we're able to create a platform for them to find that connection which really talks a lot about you know the perfect segue into our into our program but before we get there yes before we get there okay so what would your what would your message be to parents particularly of young children who are still there's there's some runway ahead about those connections how important is it to get off your device and to spend some time with your child and to say tell me what's going on in your world tell me how you're feeling tell me about your friends tell me now there are children who it'll be natural to shut down there's a lot of kids i i've had teenagers through my own and still have teenagers and often they'll grunt you're lucky if you get the one word answer right the kiss of death is to ask how was school today you should never ask that it's like the worst question a parent could ever ask a child but are there a series of questions and are there vulnerable moments that you can get a window into your child's soul into the neshama to have a better understanding and most importantly to create that connection to validate feelings and to open a conversation to make them feel comfortable to say well let me be honest you know religion's not doing it for me today or i have friends who are having a bad influence or i feel very lonely or i'm struggling every day or so what are the kind of things that parents could do to create those connections so that even before that loneliness ever kicks in yeah so you know children model their their life after their parents definitely at a young age as they're still molding and developing as their own identity and their individual before they individualize and i think that it's it's an awesome opportunity i mean think about the amount of time if you just run the numbers right the amount of time that a parent spends with a child for for years and years and years one two three right seven ten twelve i mean the amount of hours that a child has the opportunity to watch a parent is is is tremendous and you know if us as parents could model um vulnerability could model you know what attention and focus looks like that educates a child that there's a there's an approach to connection there is there's an ability for me to connect because i see my mom and my dad my father my mother talk to each other without being distracted so just simple modeling in the home environment is huge simple uh modeling when you're talking to a friend and you're you know your your child your young son or young daughter is watching you you know do you you know do you continue to talk to that person do you say excuse me and then you know talk to your son or your daughter these are the types of behaviors that that children watch and absorb and absorb so i think that that's one very practical you know answer to modeling what connection looks like and feels like and the other opportunity that exists in the home pre pre-addiction is to give your children the language right give give ourselves a language what does it mean when somebody has questions right to be able to create an environment where a question is allowed in the home even if it's even if it's challenging and even if the answer is unclear for us but the fact that a child can ask a question the fact that even a young adult can ask a question is so critical you know most of you talked about that that isolation and that the inability to really you know question um those questions that you had you know if that could have been done you know years prior it might have changed the course and and this is you know it's a serious it's a serious course it's a serious you know a person has the ability to to to follow and to engage and to build connection or god forbid to to take that frustration and that pain and the heavy load of the walls of the house and and steer it towards addiction you know the educators parents everyone feels like i'm going through my stuff so it's very hard everyone's got their own anxiousness everyone's got their own struggle everyone's got their own stuff that they're going through but yet the cost is so high to not carve out the emotional space and the time to do this with our children and you know there are teachers and educators in obey him who have curriculum they've got to cover they've got black amara they've got to cover but yet the stakes are so high to not notice the student in the classroom who looks like they're struggling or is a step behind or is really retreating or is acting at in a lonely way and for a parent no matter what they're going through stakes are too high to not make that individualized time for each of the children as you say to model the right behavior to also interact and to to engage children to validate to make them feel comfortable to share because these are some of the things you're doing an extraordinary job and these two stories are extraordinary stories of recovery and defense after but wouldn't it be amazing if we can go on offense before to make sure that nobody ever feels that they're ever even in that position to begin with that they need to turn to the substance so coming back um motion to your point about really spirituality the the big book and 12 steps first of all moshe could you talk about because some of our listeners don't know um they think you know people who've only heard about the 12-step program or alcoholics anonymous in a book or a movie the tv show they may think it's incompatible with with torah or a torah recovery system they may not know that there's so much religious component to it and that it's really beautifully compatible with much of what we believe so do you incorporate 12-step and recovery within onward living in your other programs um absolutely i mean there's no question about it there's such a such a close connection um you know ultimately it's really about you know moving out of the driver's seat and and the addict you know is grabbing on to being in control and manipulating the systems and the family around them and really spirituality at the core is recognizing in a humble way that there is a power larger than self um and that is the foundation of recovery and and humbly i'll defer to you on this one rabbi but you know i believe that that is potentially the foundation of judaism where there is a higher power there is a there is a there's a control system that is beyond the self and um you know very often addicts fall into addiction because they feel out of control and they feel that you know there's so much chaos around them so they grab onto the drug or the alcohol to to try to position themselves and ground themselves which is why recovery talks to you know moving away from that driver's seat and deferring um the self to a higher power so there's a huge correlation between the two schools of thought if you will if you could have the if i could even say that um and and we definitely incorporate that into the program um you know it's part of everyone's story it's a jewish program uh with jewish challenges and and therefore it needs to be it's part of the trauma it's part of the chaos and therefore it needs to be part of the solution the the meetings i've had the privilege of going to i walked away feeling they were religious experiences what i had maybe for the people who go or go regularly you know they grab their cup of coffee they go through the motions they recite the different things that need to be said but for me it was a religious experience first of all to be in a room as i said of people who are confronting and tackling and battling their challenges the fact that the program includes as you say submissions surrender the notion of a higher power the humility to introduce yourself and say here's my name and here's the challenge i have to be willing to share to set aside ego at least as an outsider what i saw in that room and i wish for this for our community wouldn't it be amazing if it's what daily minion was a room full of people who you know are not differentiated by the car they drove there or the cost of the suit or the watch they're wearing but it's the great equalizer everybody's vulnerable and equal when it comes to confronting the challenges that they had the willingness to share so it really is a religious experience something amazing but this is a perfect segue towards the last part of our program to talk about really really exciting the collaboration that we're forming hopefully the difference that we that we make so um let me come back to you motion in one second but first i want to i want to ask you today and moshe about what role community could have had you've both gone through onward four months and six months you're there for a long time um what do you think is the importance of this collaboration the idea for those who want it and not forcing it out of anyone who's in recovery but giving the option while in recovery to also be connected to a local community and to be able to see spirituality torah davening jewish life and to be connected to a family that you can while you're distanced and far from your own still as appropriate be invited experience shabbos yant of meals experience times that you're you're seeing a happy and a functional a family and you're part of it not to replace your own but to help you go back to to your own what would that have been like through your recovery process how important do you think it is for us to introduce now i think it's a very very important uh main reason being just to have a feeling of you know acceptance and no judgment from the community that might have been a big reason why you know someone ended up where they you know in this position to be able to feel like you know what i'm doing what i need to do now i'm i'm confronting my problems and i'm being accepted with open arms back into the community that ultimately you know for everyone's different but for me for sure you want to be a part of you want to feel accepted and you want to feel like part of the community so i think it's extremely important to just have that and you know i think that a family not specifically your family is also very important because a lot of times that's what someone needs in order to get to the point where they can go back to their family amazing thank you i think it's it's critical that people in recovery um have a an outlet to connect to their to their roots um especially in a in a setting where there's where there's no judgment um one of the things that that recovery has helped me with was my entire life it was hashem is the king the master of the universe he's know of everything he's supreme but i forgot what very one very very important aspect is that he's my father and just like a father loves his child without condition that manifests itself by being around people in the in the jewish community who are who are who are having a chavez meal who are going to davin and they're not judging you for you know what you're wearing you know you know your haircut you know what you're doing with your life they just they just want to be around you because you're jewish and you're you know you're a son of a son of god and that's all that matters and that is that is the the love aspect of you know of of our father in heaven and that's that's like so critical to recovery and i think it's an amazing amazing thing thank you that's why we're excited to be adding it so much can you talk about you know clinically the role of a family and of reintegration and then if you get spout out some of the details of this program what people can look for absolutely so super super excited um it's it's really a brand new initiative that um i don't think has has happens anywhere and it really should happen everywhere because um you know it really talks to the core uh of recovery this you know unconditional love and acceptance and need to reintegrate with family systems and with community um you know dr bowen who is um murray bowen one of the founding fathers of modern day psychology he talks a lot about and he writes a lot about it you know about the family system and and he defines it as an emotional unit it's it's one unit and you know in in the recovery program we understand that it's very often not about the individual struggling but it's about the individual the individual within the family system although the person doing the drugs and the alcohol might be the identified patient but more often than not it's really just a reaction to to what the family look like and what the family dimensions and interactions are um so obviously incorporating family work into recovery is critical and it's something that we we spend a lot of time and energy um doing with that individual because it's critical for their healthy long-term recovery um and you know the idea is kind of an outgrowth of you know taking such a necessary part clinical part of recovery and and avoid that exists while a patient is away from their family um and try to use the current setup to really start to create modeling for what a healthy family looks like and how an individual who's been somewhat ostracized can re-engage that's the that's the structure um you know obviously our goal is is you know for the individual you know children and parents deserve each other they deserve each other before addiction they deserve each other during addiction and after addiction um and if we can come in and partner with the schule to to have you know patients or individuals that are in the recovery program spend time engaging in healthy family systems and learning and picking up some of the tools then taking those messages and bringing them back home to their family it's it's a really unique opportunity to do that and that's really in a nutshell what the program is about um we have you know pretty exciting curriculum uh that we'll be rolling out for the boca raton synagogue um you know there'll be a survey monkey going out gathering some basic information about understanding what your family system is like understanding what the motivation is for you as an individual and for pairing up you know somebody from the program who's courageous and willing to say hey i'm open i need that connection i'm looking for that non-judgmental environment and then working with the individual and that adopt family together clinically to be able to set set the road map for them to take those tools and bring them back to their own family that's the objective so i'm hoping that people around the world are listening to this and and whether they're very aware personally and in detail or this is the first they're learning about it that it will continue the conversation because that's how we can tackle this so for our local boca and brs members we will let you know um and we'll be in touch with you how you can get involved and if you're a family that's interested in being matched and connected and being part of this incredible collaboration that we will let you know how you can connect with us it's important to point out that onward living is a non-profit part of the reason that we are connecting is not only because of moshe's expertise and and and beyond that in our community we have other connections to the program but it's a non-profit it's designed to help people many of these programs are are um they're just not affordable they're they're impossible for people to attend and part of the beauty of onward is that it is structured as a non-profit and it's there for the community and it's there to be able to make sure that everybody who needs help can get their help and and as a two non-profits it's really a logical uh collaboration so uh for the bottom of my