Knowing When to Speak… and When Not To | Rabbi Moshe Don Kestenbaum | Behind the Bima #188

Welcome to the newest episode of Behind the Bea. For those who are listening and can't see, I'm sitting next to two empty chairs because today the intro is brought to you by me, myself, and I. It's a shiv week. People are away and off. I'm happy for them. And sometimes you have to be comfortable in your own skin, a little hispoodus, a little alone time. And that's what we have here in the introduction to behind the beam. But the truth is I'm grateful for it because it gives me a little bit of a chance to try to frame and set up this episode and this conversation. We had the great privilege and pleasure of having a conversation with my friend Raosha Don Castbam who is a seasoned mechanos. Just an incredible really special person who practices what he preaches. so much to learn from and so much to watch and learn just by observing him. But in this conversation, which you'll see momentarily, we talk a little bit about parenting and education. Today, we talk about where young people, where children, kids are at, and where and how we approach them as adults, be they parents, and be them rabbis, be their educators and teachers and rebum. And in the conversation, maybe it seems I'm taking a little bit of a opposite approach, a little bit of a devil's advocate, pushing back at him on some of his approach. And that's because sincerely I have some questions um that I think we all need to be asking and considering. Of course I agree with him and there's a reason that he's resonating so much that he is so popular and not only he Waterberry where he comes from Rabbi Kaish we're going to have back in Bokeh in a short time from now and please God we'll have back on behind the beimma. There's a reason it resonates because young people want to feel heard and they want to feel seen and they want to feel validated. They want to feel equal. They want to feel friends. They want to feel that they're able to find their own way and they're not being dictated to. They're not being demanded. They're not being judged. They're not being looked at or looked right through or talked down to. So, they're living in a world where they're struggling and suffering from that. And so, the people who they feel notice them, love them, talk to them. They resonate. And I think all of us have a lot to learn from that and about that to be better at that. Not only for young people, but in a certain degree, I think that's true for all of us. My question is this and I turn to you our faithful behind the beimma audience and I guess I challenge you with this question because I'm thinking about it. I don't know and I don't have all the answers but I think we all need to be thinking about it today. Is this a function of the time that we're living? Is this a function of this generation or was this the way it should have been altogether and forever? Did our ancestors sort of get it wrong when we were raised? Some of us, and I'm not that old, but the generations before where our parents and our grandparents, they just said, "This is the way it is, and this is the way it needs to be. Here are the expectations. Here's the accountability. Here's the consequences. You got to get up. You got to dominate. You got to dress this way. You got to speak this way. You've got to produce this way. You got to take responsibility in this way." And you didn't need to feel seen or visible. You didn't need to feel validated for your opinion. And you certainly had no expectation that your parents or your rebayment teachers were going to be your friends. They were authority. They knew more. They had lived longer. They had life experience. They had a certain authority. And you deferred to it. You surrendered to it. Of course, you developed and you had your own opinions and you had conversations and you explored until you acquired things for yourself. But you came in with, you know, when I grew up Shabas morning, my father, I was either sitting by his side or at the teen minion. But if I was at neither, then there was a consequence. So I knew that there was no negotiation, there was no deliberation, there was no conversation. That was the way it was. That was the expectation. This was the consequence. There was no, well, why do you feel this way? Why don't you want to be? And what would make you want to be? There was no attempt or conversation to figure out if I didn't feel like going to shul or to acknowledge or validate why. So, were we better then? Are we better now? Did they get it wrong? Are we getting it wrong? Were the generations different? Is it the generations before were a little tougher? We're a little stronger. And now we have a generation who, and I say this without judgment, it's a reality not just within our world, but within the greater world, maybe now young people are more fragile, more vulnerable. And therefore, they need to be coddled a little bit more and there needs to be this attitude and this attempt. So is it or is it ask is this a prior the way it should be? Is this part of the ideal and really if we could go back, we would have taught it to the people before us or no, it's not. Every generation needs the parenting and the pedagogic approach for that generation. And one is not better than the other. They're just different. And you have to look around at the world in the time in which we're living and things just are different. Look at today the um emotional the focus on mental health, mental hygiene or the lack of mental health, mental health crisis, mental health struggles. Those numbers are much different than they ever they ever were. The introduction of technology has radically changed our world and it's changed young people. This is my theory is why did we look up to our parents and our teachers and our and our principles and our authority. They live longer. The longer you live, the older you were, the more experience that you had and therefore the more authority that you have. But today, what do you have? We're living in a time where the older you are, the less you know how to use technology. So now parents and grandparents or teachers in rebum are asking the young students or children, hey, could could you help me work my phone? Could you help me with my computer? Could you teach me how to Google? Could you introduce me to chat GBT and AI? So, who knows more and not who has more wisdom, who has access to more information and more knowledge. If you've got terabytes of information at your fingertips because you know how to use AI, Google and so on and so forth, the younger you are, the may familiar or fluid that is. And then maybe you have more information than people before you. And so you feel why do I need to respect or defer or surrender or submit to the people before me? So anyway, I'm throwing a lot at you and maybe it doesn't make sense, but it's a lot of questions because I don't know. I know we're not the first to ask this. I'll tell you if you look at the incredible introduction to the pett of Shapiro. He was murdered by the Nazis was the rabbi of the Warsaw ghetto. His famous sermons that he gave in the Warsaw ghetto unimaginable at the time called a kesh for which ravineber is named. He also wrote a book called a student's obligation. It's been translated into English. I don't think it's any longer available. It was by Jason Arensson Press, which is no longer. But in a student's obligation, it's written to students in yeshiva, what they need to know, how they need to think. It's sort of a guide. And there's an introduction. Introduction is written to parents and educators. And I am blown away by that introduction. I think it's incredible. And personally, I think you should not be allowed to take a baby home from the hospital. You should not be allowed to walk into a classroom to teach if you've not read the introduction. the of the and here he is inn late 1920s early 1930s and he's writing in the introduction and he says we're living a challenging time because young people think that they're more mature than they are they think they're ahead of themselves and therefore the old ways where we used to just say you have to do it because I said so right the pzets in the 1930s it no longer works and what do we need to do today is we We need to engage children where they are and we need to expose them and inspire them so that the young person says I want that way of life. I want chabas. I want ding. I want kashras. I want midos. I want not because it's being forced or demanded or dictated but because I've been exposed to its beauty and I want that to enrich my life. And that's the methodology that he's encouraging there. You should read it. Everyone should read it. It's incredible. But I share it because already then talking almost a hundred years ago before the technology the PSBA is already looking around and he says you know young people think that they're entitled to an opinion as much as adults. They think they're as mature advanced sophisticated they think they know as much and rather than reprimand and rather than put them down he tries or encourages us to engage them where they are. And that's this conversation with Rabbi Kumbbam. How do we love how do we love everyone? How do we make them feel loved and respected? How do we honor them? How are we more careful with our words to communicate that in everything that we do? How do we make sure that they feel heard? And does every opinion, you'll hear we have a little debate. Is every opinion deserve to feel validated? I agree. Everyone should be respected and we should acknowledge every feeling and we should try to understand where it's coming from. But does that mean it should be validated? The shish the root of the word validated is valid. Is every feeling, every opinion valid? Do we live in a world where we have to just decide? Did we become so pluralistic emotionally that every emotion, every feeling, not only the one person has on their own, but how they feel about you? You did this, your reason is this, your motivation is that when you validate, is that is that productive or should we acknowledge I hear what you're saying, I understand it. I'd love to know more about where it's coming from, but it doesn't necessarily the same thing as validating. So anyway, this is a list of questions. me, myself, and I in the little pre-ep episode conversation and banter. Here's what's going on inside my head and my heart as I think about my family and I think about my students and I just look around and think about the world. I'm grateful for a Rabbi Kstam to be able to uh open our eyes and increase and broaden our vocabulary and our communication and I really enjoyed this conversation. But with that frame and with that setup, I hope you will too. So without any further ado, welcome back to behind the beimma. We are super excited and honored this to host Rashiva Mosha Dan Castenbamita Rashiva of Orrietsk New Jersey a friend author of Olam Hamidos and somebody who's really a great inspiration to so many really excited to go behind the beame with you and we thank you for your time. >> Pleasure and honor to be here. I just want to mention thank BS from NCSY for uh bringing me in. Absolutely. We're very grateful and uh had an impact on our community. We've gotten great feedback in the many speaking slots already. So, thank you. >> Thank you. >> Well, we'll have to bring you back more often. >> I was going to say it's a short trip. >> Too short. Too short. We're >> Yeah, I got to come a little longer. >> Shabas, we brought to you and the fly in. Even that was too short. We've had teases. So, hopefully we'll be able to tease out a little bit more in in this conversation. So, um you you've been a Rebian in many yeshivas now have your own yeshiva. What would you say are the core things that you learned by being a Rebi elsewhere that helped mold and shape what you bring to where you are now that distinguishes your yeshiva? Like what are the things that you said, I would do this differently? If I were in charge, if I were in control, if I could set the policies, if I could create the the theme and the energy, this is what I would do. And that's what I've done or that's what I'm trying to do in my yeshiva. >> So most of my or learning experience has been was in Waterberry. I was there for 20 uh 20 years or so and I think a lot of people confuse the actual behavior the actual way uh let's say waterberry works raish works with and the concepts behind it um I'm very into the concepts behind it and it's very important to understand my experience seeing raish kman seeing bakim that struggle led and then Barashem many of them today are a real benorra and barashem I've comforted many parents throughout the years you know calling me you know concerned I'm telling them everything's going to be okay the main thing in my opinion is is the belief and the respect that you have for for the tid you have to really respect them you have to really believe in them and it should look different I don't personally believe every yeshiva should be run you know one way in terms of how you handle them. Some boys should have yeshiva where the davening looks one way and another yeshiva ding should look a different way. Starum should look one way in one yeshiva and a different another way. It's not about how you do it externally. It's about internally how do you look at the boys you know in with parenting h how do you look at your kids? Every kid needs to be handled differently but you have to understand the concepts what's going on. You have to be aware of yourself. How what is about you? What's about the I like to give this example. Uh we have amazing boys in Ory and and the philosophy of our yeshiva. We have a grow you know and he can you can ask him if it's true or not. But to me the first thing I tell the boys first day of yeshiva is I tell them this is the first opening message is in this yeshiva the most important thing is respect and everyone has to treat each other with respect and the yeshiva runs on respect and that's number one so so important so >> can I interrupt you for a second >> because I think this is first of all I shouldn't have opened with that question because we're diving in before we even talk about where you grew up and your background and what's going for another hour. >> But no, no, maybe we'll get to that, maybe we won't. But this is more important even um when you say respect. So what happens to the to that says respect the fact that I want to vape. Respect the fact that I want to sleep in a mishakas. Respect the fact that I feel angry at my rebi and want to lash out. Respect that I don't see the ribon in the same way as you. Respect the fact that I like to have a girlfriend and I want to have my smartphone unfiltered. Meaning is the danger of we have to respect and I'll tell you why I asked that. I I my own children anyone raising children today it's a I know that every generation before us also said that this is a different generation a different time but for us really it's a radically different time because the introduction of technology was such a gamecher in the whole world and with it the information age and now AI and so much more but children are living in a world and some yeshivas and and kasha raanam and mankim are sort of reinforcing this in them is that you know my children or my tamid are my best friends. I learn from them as much as they learn from me. I have to validate constantly how they feel. Respect means validating. And what happened to the like you're a kid, you're younger, you're growing, you're learning. Of course, respect means >> sorry. Or what happened to expectations? It's very nice you feel that way, but there are certain expectations. You show up in a certain room, there's an expectation that you're going to dress a certain way, that you're going to behave a certain way. And even if you feel differently, there are certain societal expectations that we have on you. >> Like validate me that I don't want to put my dish in the sink. Respect the fact that I don't want to brush my teeth. Respect like is this phenomenon of like every every even every bakar and every child boy at every age that we have to respect them and we have to validate. I have a running mahocus with one of my children that if she's listening to this I'll be in big trouble and it's it's it's shim and we both love each other and we just almost humorously continue to debate it. But she talks about the important you have to validate feelings. But I said, "But not every feeling is valid." The the the show of the word validate is valid. >> I I feel bad I'm taking your daughter's side. >> No, you can you can but let's say I'm going to give every every feeling is valid. >> Really? So I'll tell you what I want. So say the feeling of the pedophile. I'm going to give the extreme example. The pedophile who wants to molest the child. Should we validate that the feeling that they have or do we say to such a person I hear that you have that temptation that feeling come we need to see someone about it we need to see a doctor because that's not healthy. >> Well validating the feeling versus telling someone it's okay to act on the feeling is is is a different thing that's not even a valid feeling validate is valid. >> Once one second validate validate doesn't mean that the feeling is correct. Doesn't mean it doesn't need to be changed. Right? I wrote a say for amidos. Anger is a feeling that's natural. Right? >> If someone's angry to tell them and dismiss them and say you have no right to be angry, I can't understand why you're angry is dismissive and it's not true. It's not right. If I have a feeling that's coming from somewhere we have to tell people, okay, we have to try to understand where the person's coming from and then try to tell them, okay, this is something we need to work on. This is a feeling that we need to try to change, you know. So validating the feeling means I accept and understand that there's a place why you have these feelings and now we have to try to work work work through it. To tell a person you shouldn't be feeling a certain way is seem to me seems a little ridiculous. That's how they feel. You mean you shouldn't feel that way. >> You you are the bal >> but we have to come back to other >> we'll come back we'll come back but let's respecting be you know with behaviors and approval. Yeah. >> And maybe it's semantics. I don't want to get hung up on the word validate, >> but I would think that the best way to talk to somebody who's feeling anger is to say what's bringing that out. Which piece of you is reacting that way. >> That's validating the feeling. You're acknowledging the feeling in that we'll have to pull we'll have to put a webster, but we probably not disagreeing. You know, 100% anger is so important. You know, a boy came to me and he said to me, uh, he has this anger, but he feels he's telling me why it's right. And I said to him, some of your opinions and philosophies may be right. The anger is always I would say almost. I'm not sure if it's almost. It's always wrong. The anger is coming from a bad place. The way you're dealing with what you're dealing with maybe validating him. >> Isn't that a failure to validate? >> No. No. Well, >> because the younger person says, "No, validate that I'm angry." And the fact that you're telling me that I'm right to react, I'm right to have some feelings, but anger is the wrong one. You're not validating my I'm I'm angry. validate the anger, >> you know, prove I think validation. Sometimes I use the word validate. I think I think the way I would try to communicate, of course, I don't always do it, but if a if a child my child comes to me and says, I'm angry. I think it's important. I think everyone will tell you it's important to try to try to acknowledge I understand. I understand why you're angry. Someone tells you, I'm really angry at at my mother. I'm really angry at my father. I'm really angry at my child. I think it's important to first say I understand where you're coming from and I may feel the same way, you know, but you know, or aunt, let's let's see if we can reframe this the way we're looking at the situation and try to overcome it. That's what it means. I'm talking about validate. I think when people when if a person comes to you says I'm so angry and you tell them you have no right to be angry, you know, or it's why you why are you angry? Why are you angry? That's dismissive. That's not that's that's all. I don't think you disagree with that. No, I don't disagree. I think we're on the same page about that. Maybe it is semantical and and hung up on the word validate. But I think that there is a core >> I want to say. I think you're I think I think there's a big difference between approval and and validation and and accepting and understanding versus approval. You know, it's I I tell the I'm I think with parenting, I wrote a book on parenting, the heart of parenting, maybe on the more liberal side. Um and I wrote a piece over the difference between acceptance and approval. I don't believe parents should tell their kids. It's It's a good thing you're hanging out with girls and it's a good thing you're doing this. It's a good thing you're smoking. It's not true. It's not the truth. I think everything should go with the truth. You don't have to lie to kids and tell them everything they're doing is right in order to make them feel good. They know it's not true. They know that's that's I never tell I tell me them it's okay you miss. It's okay you miss learning. It's not the truth. And they know it's not the truth. The the question is how you looking at the kid? Are you judging them or are you sympathetic, understanding that they have a challenge? I'm understanding of it. And you tell your child, I don't judge. It's not even what you say. It's a look in your eyes. I don't judge you for what you're doing. I know you have a struggle. I don't judge you for it. I love you. I'm crazy about you. I believe in you. I don't look down upon you. You not not to tell them they're doing the right thing. >> That's where I think people make the mistake. So, I just want to just I just want to put the the end of that conversation so I'm not misunderstood on the validation. The word that I think is more appropriate is acknowledgement. Meaning, someone's feeling a certain way. That should be acknowledged. I want to acknowledge how you're feeling. I want to acknowledge why you say you're feeling it. So, right, you come in and you say, "You love my siblings more than you love me." Or, "My school is the worst place on earth. I hate it. I'm miserable there." So, the parent says, "What are you talking about? I saw a picture of you smiling. You're happy at school." That's a failure to acknowledge. No, you're saying you feel a certain way. But to validate would be if the person says I hate school because this this and the other I'm going to validate that. No, but but but what you're saying the reasons that you're claiming of why you feel that way are not are not accurate. So to validate is sometimes to reinforce someone's in right. So if you I validate that I love your siblings more than you. I don't want to validate that. I understand I'm acknowledging you feel that. Let's get to the show rush of why you feel that. Let's fix why you feel that. But I don't want to validate you're feeling that because that feeling is not valid. I I don't know if we're just arguing semantics. I do think there's a shade of an argument here, which is great. I think that it's important that you validate their feeling, not the validate. It's not an opinion, it's a feeling. So, the child says, "You love the sibling better than me." I would say, "I'm sorry you feel that way. I want to understand. I want to hear what makes you what makes you feel. What makes you feel that way?" >> It's a little more. It's a little sounds very like I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm acknowledging I'm acknowledge you have this issue. I don't you know >> in my world of acknowledges I understand that and please tell me more. I want to understand that. I want to understand I want to lean in and understand what you're saying, why you feel that way, where it's coming from. I want to tell you why I'm hung up on this. >> Okay? >> Because I think that it's reinforcing a very negative thing and I'm seeing the repercussions with young people. It it's like there's certain now code words you could use and and and now I was meeting with a couple and we were having a conversation. I was trying to help them on a certain thing. And I said something that was I promise you the most benign, innocuous thing of all time. And she said, "Rabbi, what you just said? I don't feel safe anymore." I was like, "Feel safe? Whoa." Like, "What? What happened? What happened?" Like, cuz that's now in our generation. Like, if you say, "I don't feel safe." You're triggering. I don't feel safe. I'm not saying those aren't good. Now, I know what I can use if I'm >> No, these are these are important words and there are circumstances that we should be sensitive not to trigger. And of course, everyone deserves to feel safe. Of course, I believe in those principles. So I just I wonder with like young people again like you're not valid like I'm not going to school today. Why not? I don't want to. I need a mental I'm taking off today. Whatever. Then you say I understand why you feel that way. Like I I understand that I also didn't like to go to school. You had a hard day. So you're going through something with with with your friends. I got it. Like let's talk about that but not like and then and but if you do say like let's talk all about that but but we do have to get to school eventually. You're not validating me. It became like the out for for like young people. You're not validating. >> I would I would I would listen maybe semantics. I'm not sure. We don't have the time to go to the lumbness of it, but I I think there's nothing, you know, I think there's um >> yeah, I think the person should feel should feel validated in terms of that you respect and understand their feelings and then we're going to work towards changing that perspective. >> Let's go back to the beginning. Define respect, right? A yeshiva where everyone deserves to be respected. So is it every behavior deserves to be respected? Every feeling deserves to be respected every deserves to be respected. So, so let me share like this and you'll you know you'll direct me. I was speaking to my to my buckram about this and not not everyone understands this but there was a boy that that's you know that's been struggling to come in the morning and I wanted to send him a text because I wanted to let him know it's notice and I want to try to get him to come the next day and I thought about it and I'm I'm a little bit um crazy like this. I called sensitive but I think I'm right. I thought about it. How am I going to send them a message? I was first I was thinking, let me send them a message. I hope to see you tomorrow. Or I expect to see you tomorrow. By the way, I don't like the word expect. We could talk about that. I expect to see you tomorrow. I wouldn't I would never use that word, but I hope to see you tomorrow. But I thought like if I say hope to see you tomorrow, I wasn't sure. I'll explain why. And I wrote something like um you know, I I hope to see you tomorrow. Um, I forgot the the language I used, but I wish I'd remember, but I said, "I hope to see you tomorrow." And, you know, and um, here here's here's the thing. If if somebody struggles with a diet, I've never seen anyone go over to the person and say, "What's the matter with you? Stop eating so much." If you do that to somebody, you're destroying them. to come to a boy in yeshiva and send them a message. I expect you to come to shakus tomorrow. I expect you to learn. I expect you to do this. That's like telling someone who's struggling with weight loss. I expect you not to eat so much. Who are you to expect someone else who's struggling with their diet to not like who are you? Because you're not I'll talk about you're you're you're thin. You don't struggle. What does it mean to expect? I expect you to come to Shakas tomorrow. I would encourage him, talk to him about coming. First, I have to understand I have to understand what he's what he's struggling with. I believe there's always a struggle when someone's not producing, when someone's not doing, and you have to be understanding that there's a struggle. So, you encourage and you discuss and work with the person by by telling a person where you expect you to come. Very often, you're basically dismissing completely whatever they're going through, whatever the challenge they're going through. So, so if someone comes to Schul tomorrow morning in shorts and no shirt on. >> Yeah. >> And I say to them, I expect you to put clothes on. And he would say, well, that's not fair. You don't understand my baggage, my my my past. Validate my list. Validate my And I would say, no, no, there's an expectation. There's a rule to to enter into this building, which is that you have to meet certain expectations. >> Why can't we have expectations with people also that say, "I love you. I care about you. I respect you. I believe in you." But there are certain expectations that we have in our house in our yeshiva and and we expect you to meet those expectations. >> So so I would say like this it depends on user expectations. I don't like putting the word expectation on the person. You know if you say this is expectations of the shul I expect when you expect we I expect my child to do this. I expect that it's a dangerous word because it comes a lot of judgment. And now you may I sound like I'm very liberal but I'm really not so not so liberal with everything. Um I believe in boundaries. I believe in rules. Uh here's what I would say. Let's say I have a kid in my yeshiva who comes he's wearing shorts. You know what would I do? You know I would I'd call him to the office and I would talk to him and say look you know you like to wear shorts but in the yeshiva here we have to keep a certain decor which is wearing pants. So I love you to be in the yeshiva and and if and wear pants is that something you could do? says, "No, I can't. I have to wear shorts." I would say, "I really feel bad." Not judging you. Whatever it is, maybe you have trauma because someone harassed you about your shorts. And so, maybe we're not the right yeshiva for you. We're not the right Yeshiva for you. I don't believe a yeshiva should be every yeshiva should have the same kids. I have a son in Miss 9th grade is pretty stark yeshiva. Beautiful yeshiva, Connecticut. I think it's a beautiful yeshiva. I it couldn't handle a lot of the kids that we have we that I taught in in Waterberry in Durham. That's not a problem. That's not the right place. And I think I think that Man is a very good person, a Kasha person. If he had the kid who came in and it wasn't working out, he would nicely talk to him and say, "Look, I love you. I don't judge you, but this may not be the right place for you." That's what that's respect. >> Does the respect does the expectations of us? I think Akosh has expectations of us, but I think only Hashem could have expectations of us. I don't think a human being could really have expectations of somebody else. Who are who are we to judge? I want to tell you an amazing thing. Parents will tell me when I if I you know, not the biggest punisher, but if I I think you punish your children for one of two reasons. Either because you're trying to, you know, safety control them out of a certain dangerous behavior, or you're trying to teach them by the consequence that this is a bad behavior. And people will say, but people often misunderstand. They say, "I punish because I'm emulating Hashem because Hashem punishes." They're making such a big mistake. When Bezant gives the punishment, the four types of death, it's not Bezant playing Hashem and judging. Let's say the person 20 years been learning Torah. He's now the God of Ladar and witnesses come that 20 years ago he was mal Shabas with warning. You know what Bezen would do? They would execute him. He's a god. Bezin would execute him as far as I understand because not playing God. Bez following the rule book that Hashem said if you do this we have to punish you. Could be it's not your fault. It could be you went through trauma. It could be all the reasons but you know but we have to follow. So we don't play we don't play God. >> I agree with that. One should never punish for that reason and and should always check themselves before they >> there's a lot of that goes that goes a lot of that a lot of that goes on goes on with punishing. >> I agree but I'm ask a different question. which I think in Moscow is too >> is are we helping the child >> who when they graduate to what we'll call the real world meaning when they get the they get their job and they go to work. >> Yeah. >> And now their boss is they didn't come in or they didn't get the job done in time or they took lunch too long and the boss is going to say there's there's some expectations of the job like we hired you this requirement be like you're not validating me. I told you I need a personal day because uh Donald Trump got elected again. I I need a person all day because my friend didn't text me back. Don't judge me. Validate respect judge. This is a job. There are expectations. There are requirements. There's accountability. There's respons like this. We do gay. We have based on gay. We ask the g in the mikvah. Do you believe in >> if they go doesn't expect he loves me for I am he. He doesn't judge me. He validates my feeling. He puts his arm around me. He wants me to do the best without judging me. Then we say come get out of the mikvah. Because like you have to believe one of the economists. Now we're not reborn and we don't give this or the onesh but don't we want to condition people and be people that in life and in the world we we have there's responsibility there's accountability there's expectations and we do we don't judge people we all struggle we should I think when we try we should be transparent about our struggles appropriately we should share that we're not perfect we should try to not have judgment but also haven't we gone a little bit to the extreme in the other direction such that now people are like live in LA and there's no judgment on me. I do my best. There's no expectations. >> So, let me explain. Um the I think that's a mistake that people make that parents make if I don't lay out the consequences and I'm not harsh and etc. Then what's going to be when they go to work? You know, Bar Hashem, I've you know, uh four children. Um my two oldest are are working now in real estate. I raised them. I think we raised them without without judgment. Went to mainstream yeshivas raised them without judgment. They're doing right. They're doing barashm very very responsible. I have boys in my yeshiva that and again it's a mainstream yeshiva we have. But I I run it the way the way I'm talking to now in terms of a gentleness, a sensitivity. And I have boys in yeshiva that really struggled to come in the mornings. And I felt that beating them up was not the right thing. It would either force them into coming not from a good place or they would just leave. And I believe one of the greatest services I've done for some of those boys um is that I gave them respect that I believe in them. These boys again most of my boys come to shakas come come to learning but let's say I'm thinking in my mind you know some boys that struggled you know when they were in yeshiva but I never judge them when they come I gave them a warm greeting no judgment for why you're coming late these boys got married few months later we're have good jobs and and and show up show up in the morning it is ridiculous to think that if the rashiva is not beating the kids kids up to get the chakras or to learn that then they're not going to understand when they go to work They're not idiots. They're not idiots. They understand what a job is. They understand that if you're good parents, you're good. You teach them about life. I don't teach my bakim that Hashem I teach myem loves you no matter what. But I don't teach them that life is a freebie. That we don't have responsibility. They know that I try in my free time to be learning as much as possible. They know that I'm serving Hashem. I I can't say as best as I can, but they know that they they know that I take life seriously. They know it. We like we don't give kids enough credit. Like we think everything has to be spelled out for kids and they don't realize that there no expectation. It's so ridiculous. Of course they're not stupid. They understand. They understand it. >> I think we agree on this. Also, first of all, we're just playing devil's advocate. The reason we love everyone the reason that you're here and we're excited to have this conversation. The reason we bring people to meet you is because of course we're we're very inspired by this um by this refreshing approach. So we're really playing a lot devil's advocate, not not pushing back. And I think we agree on this also, but isn't there, you know, let's say I I didn't read the book Rift Trank, right? Just love them. So RF Tran would say I when a boy walks in late, I don't yell at them or don't beat them up. Meaning the opposite of that approach is not beat them up, yell at them, punish them. You you could be in a in have the call it more mainstream approach. Still put your arm around filled with love, but also with the love say I don't judge you. I love you. I understand it's a struggle, but but like new let's go. We can do better. We got more. There's an expectation. Let's because I think the nuda that we are a little bit disagreeing on is that there is there's been introduced this idea that >> everyone has to be respected. Everything they do, everything they feel, everything and and like and also everyone's evil, everyone's equal, right? So, so I I remember once I spoke to a group of boys who were leaving their fill in at school even through Sunday, not putting them on Sunday was terribly disturbing, terribly upsetting. And I sp and I thought like how can I get through to them? So first I learned the chuva in in raosh's mimakim about this boy who was in the kna ghetto and he was 11 12 years old and he comes to the ghetto and he says um I'm I'm not going to I'm not going to live to my barit the way things are going everyone's being killed murdered I'm not I cannot imagine dying having never worn tillin so can I wear tin already now at 12 years old I can protect that it's an incredible truva and I learned that I forget the answer he gave I said the fact that this kid if anyone ever had an excuse in the world to not and let alone not and he so bring it they didn't care then then you know a kid raised he said well tul doesn't do anything for me why should I put it on it doesn't do anything for me explain what it means what it does didn't get anywhere and then I said you know in the front of the shul there's this really old man Rabbi Klene Rabbi Kra he's a holocaust survivor he lost spouse parent his whole family he lost everyone everything he came out of it and he still puts on fill in every day he ds to hashem he for our community is incredible and I remember one of the boys said to me he's in high school he says to Yeah, that's his opinion. That's not my opinion. I said, but is it possible like he's he's alive a little bit more, he's seen a little bit more, he's struggled a little bit more, he's experienced a little bit more. Is it possible you should like reserve your opinion because maybe say like, oh, looking at him, I should not be so conclusive about my opinion because like he's and he was like, now we're basically even like, okay, he's 85, survives the Holocaust, is a big and I'm like don't even know which way to hold this, but yeah, our opinions are equal. And I remember thinking like this generation I'm really worried. I I believe in truths. Really believe in truths. I do never taught my kids it's okay to miss David. It doesn't make a difference. It's I would tell a I have no problem telling that telling that boy look you know you're a smart kid but understand you know someone with experience you know I don't let you know I have I have strong opinions you know. um and might tell me, "No, I have strong opinions." We don't have to sell, we should never sell truths. I'm very I'm against Again, there are exceptions where a kids just totally mentally not well. Typically, I'm against when parents, you know, buying your kids, you know, drugs and and having parties and inappropriate parties in your house. I'm typically totally against it, you know. Sorry. I know you're struggling, but we we can't have this in our house. You know, I love you. I love you, but we can't have this. I'm a big believer. Just just the truth. Just the truth. What's the truth? And teach the kids the truth. Teach the kids with truth, with respect. This is right. It's a mitzvah to put on. It's a mitzvah to d it's a mitzvah to learn. You know, I went into one of the shivas in our a Jew needs to learn Tyra. I think it's very important that whatever yeshiva we're teaching in and wherever the kids are holding never not share them the truth. Obviously sometimes they may not be ready for certain things but we don't sell a fake Judaism. Oh it doesn't you learn because just Hashem loves you. I'll never tell the boys that there's responsibility but understand you know understand Hashem loves you like crazy and understand that I will never judge you because I don't know your challenges. And I want to tell you how many boys at 18 19 years old weren't wearing till and weren't dabing and today they're giving sh and and and their great sadikim to just just to understand that some people need more time to believe in them. You never have to sacrifice the truth. >> How do you strike that fine line? I'm sorry. >> How do you strike that no heat wedies this morning? >> It's my fault. How do you how do you strike that balance? >> Um and and I want to read it again. Of course, we we agree and believe in love and find it refreshing and try to follow even if there are nikudas we're disagreeing about. But how do you strike that balance between the I'm not judging but meaning like in your yeshiva could a boy come with could he grow his hair long if a boy says I was yelled at in the past about a yamaka that triggers me so I want to come to the bism but I can't wear yamaka could he come without a yamaka how do you how do you strike the balance between here are the expectations a dress code how long your hair can be you have to wear yamaka and and if you can't I love you and I'm not judging you won't the boy be like but you are judging me because you're telling me I can't come. So, how do you how do you communicate? I'm not judging you, but we have rules and with your own children with you. >> I think we address this with the shorts. I want to say two things. Um, yeshivas need to have their own standards. And my yeshiva boy has to wear a yamaka. If I'm working with boys that are struggling to wear yamakas, then the yeshiva should not have a yamaka rule because if I have a yamaku rule, I won't have these kids. I won't have a yeshiva. You have to set rules for the kids. I don't believe, like I said before, that one yeshiva can help all kids. I don't believe you should be taking kids that are in a strong learning yeshiva and put them with other kids that are that are watching who knows what in in the base medish or doing drug like it doesn't you can't have one place for everybody. But again, if let's say a kid comes to my yeshiva without a yamaka say look I'm not judging you. I don't know what you've been through. I want to know what you've been through. But you know the yeshiva we need where yamakas here. I want I want to tell you I want I want I want to tell you because I don't judge you. If you really weren't judging me, you'd let me come sit here >> because I'm not I'm not judging you. I understand that wearing yamaka may be hard for you and maybe you're so traumatized it's not good for you but because I have yeshiva with other boys and for them we're for them they need to be in an environment which they were yamakas etc. So this is what we have to do here. I want to tell you a story this really had made an impact on me. A boy wasn't a certain yeshiva and he told me that the menal came to him on Friday and said you need to get a haircut. If you come back without a haircut on Sunday, don't come back to yeshiva. He didn't come back. He ended up in Waterberry. I'm telling you, I spoke to the kid about it. If the manal would have come to him and the manal had a right in his yeshiva, I wherever the yeshiva was, he had a right. It wouldn't be good for the yeshiva and you have to be honest. It's about you about the yeshiva. But it wasn't good for the Shiva to have the kid with with really long hair. But if you would have called him into the office, this particular kid, and said, "Look, you have great hair. You have great hair. You're a good-looking guy. But look, we have yeshiva like this, you know, and you know, the boys need to feel a certain way." Or you be honest, people are going to judge us. I so don't like when people hide behind the truth. We're going to be judged. People are going to I'm sorry. It's unfortunate. People are going to judge us. They're going to see you and see you from our Yeshiva. They won't send their kids to us for nth grade. Oshiva is going to close down. I am sorry. It's It's not my fault, but this is the situation. I need you to do me a big favor. Please do me a favor. I know it's hard for you. Please get a haircut and come back. I want you here in this Yeshiva. I promise you this kid would have got a haircut. He'd still be he would have still been there. You don't have to judge to demand even um what you need. As long as you're honest and truthful, people believe and will accept the truth. And it's a look in your eyes when you're saying it with a when you really don't respect a kid and you're really judging the kid, he will feel it. He will sense it. >> I have so many questions, but uh I'll try to take us in a little bit of a different direction. You talk a lot about the struggles of your talidim and and being able to validate, accept, acknowledge. How much do you bring in your own personal experiences? So if you're talking about anger to the tamidim, will you get up there and say, "Let me tell you about a time that I struggle with it or just last night I lost my cool." Or do you feel that diminishes yourself in the eyes of the tidim? How do you balance that? >> I am. It's insane how much I share with with my bakram. I don't think I've ever heard any rebi share. I'm not saying there isn't. And I'm not saying I'm right, but I share a lot. I just told the other the boys yesterday. It wasn't it wasn't planned, but I just said to them, you know, I thought about it like why why do I why am I coming to Bokeh? Why am I leaving the Shiva? Um I I I could use the parnasa. I'm inspiring people. Am I doing the right thing? Maybe I shouldn't have taken off this morning. And I shared with them that I think it's so important. I I gained so much from my rebat cell. He didn't share as much as I shared, but he also from a different generation, but he shared a lot. He shared how he felt when someone didn't treat him with the right honor. I feel it's so important we share because you know, rebum often, rabbis often, they they're not relatable and it's very hard to they're not relatable to you. So, they don't have any challenges and also you can't learn some through someone's thought process if they don't share. So, I'll share with I'll share with the guys um you know different I don't want to say tell them what I got angry and and yelled at my kids always but I you know I'm not sharing every every flaw but I I do share a challenge. I share things I've been through. You know, I think it's it's very important to share. I want to tell you I told him just the other day. It was so it's so meaningful to me. Uh this line from Solant uh he said he said along the following. I think it was a little bit tongue and cheek but he said that when I walk in when I walk into a roomish full of people and everyone stands up for me, you know. He said I'm sick for three days from the honor. But when I notice in the corner of my eye there's a guy that's not standing up, you know, he said I'm sick for sorry he said I'm sick for a day. When I notice a guy on the corner of my eye that doesn't stand up I'm sick for three days something like that. Um I tell them speak about my own dichotomy own challenges honor what it means to me doesn't mean to you know it's very important it's very very important to share in my opinion. >> Now we assume as the author of the amidos that you're perfect so I >> you can only write a safe for amigos. >> I say that only because you've spoken to us about it before. So I'm I'm queuing you up for it. But for those not familiar and you should be is an incredible Hebrew safer amidos and it's been translated by arts girl into English. I have a son-in-law who helped on that translation actually khalif thanked in the introduction. >> Um it's an amazing safer and and you know one by one midos and and what's the show rush and how to work on them and where we come from. Did you hesitate in writing it for that fear that like now I need to be perfect because I wrote the amaidos and if I have a flaw in my midos I'll be called out. It's it's a it's a it's a huge responsibility or or it shines a big spotlight to publish the amidos. Does he hesitate because of that? >> So really never enter my mind. It was been pointed out to me. It never entered my mind. It's a few times over the course of the years considering Barashem it's you know almost yeah it's about 20 years. Um it's only happened uh you know two three times where someone said and you wrote amidos and my response is is you're right is you're right. I wrote in the introduction to the English, not to the Hebrew. It's but I wrote in the introduction to English. I said, I can't say I practice what I preach. I like to think that I try to practice what I preach. I'm not telling you that I'm perfect. Um, I'm just telling you things that have helped me, you know, in my journey and my struggles. I told the girls last night that, you know, had I write on the way I wrote on is because my Rebby taught me to understand myself. And it's so important for people to understand themselves. So, so important. You're dangerous if you don't understand yourself. If I notice boys in my in my in the yeshiva doesn't ever happen. We have of I'm like a over here. But if a baka will talk, we'll talk a little bit by dominating. I notice if they're guests by the minion, I'm more reactive and I want to go over and shush them and I be like, hey, hey, this is about you're embarrassed. Nothing to do with them. Many parents and rabbis rebay him. They make decisions and don't realize and they think oh coets like is okay but it's like the worst crime you know you're not being honest you don't recognize it's not about it's not it's not about the it's about you you can't handle it to understand yourself and if you don't understand yourself you're dangerous taught me to try to work on our understanding ourselves I spent the next 10 years or so trying to understand myself it wasn't from reading it was really from just my own experiences and there's a lot of bearing in the safer it's out in the open. But when I'm talking about anger and I'm talking about jealousy and I'm talking about all these things, it's because I I experience them and still experience them. And you can ask my wife, I'm still very far from perfect. >> What would you say to somebody who's trying to understand themselves? What are some of the things they can do? What are some of the techniques to better understand yourself? Especially in the moment where in the moment, you know, you just want to stop. >> Can I can I build your question? Just expand upon it. Not just the person who wants to understand themselves, but the father, the mother who says to you, it's really nice oligos perfecting, telling my kid I love them. I could barely keep my head above water. I'm getting up in the morning, driving carpool, going to work, earning parnasa, trying to get to minion, trying to learn, and now on top of that, on top of all the financial and obligations that I have now, you're telling me that I have to sit at night and I have to try to understand myself and I have to think about everything like like what do you want? Like at a certain point, just life becomes overwhelming. So I think it's like broadening it a little bit. >> So I mean I think a lot of the work working on the midos is not so much sitting at night although that's important to me. It's really you know at the time it's going on to really pay attention to yourself. You know I think anger is one of the most important places to to pay attention. I'm getting angry. Why why am I getting angry? This guy gets me angry. Why does that guy get you angry? To try to understand try to think about it. I try to like if it would be someone else who would have said the same thing would have also got me so angry to truly try to understand yourself. I I think it's mainly about just paying attention. What I would call looking out for the red flags meaning if you spend all day why did I say this? Why did I say that? I said it to look good. You'll make yourself crazy. But when when there's something, you know, out of out of whack, you're getting angry, you're getting jealous, getting frustrated. Um, you talk about people being, you know, overwhelmed and it's it's overwhelming for many reasons. Life today and uh how much it costs to to support a family and everything else that's going on. That's also something that a person needs to work on in terms of being being calm, you know, working on a listen to Goldberg work working on on these on these traits. You can't say you're too busy um to work on these things because I repeat, you are dangerous. You are dangerous if you don't understand yourself. You are dangerous if you don't work on yourself. And >> you find dangerous. What do you mean by dangerous? >> What I mean is dangerous is you will mishandle people and really hurt them and you maybe think you're doing the biggest mitzvah in the world and you're doing the biggest sins in the world. The great people in Tanakh were not people that were just like, you know, out there partying. Great. the worst the worst people in Tanakh and in general they're people that are convinced they're the most dangerous because I'm doing it lash shay right those are the most dangerous people and and it's because they're not aware I'm just learning from the altern talks about yuram you know why you did all his evil because he couldn't handle the situation that he would go to the base of mikdash and he would be standing because he doesn't come from from David and would be sitting and from that that was the underlying motivation that caused them to stop the Jewish people from going up to and setting up the brothers of Yoseph. They didn't recognize they were jealous. If you don't recognize what's your motivation, I can go over to those boys and say, "Sh, stop." And I have no idea that I'm doing it because you know why I'm doing it. Parents get upset at their kids. You have to ask, "Am I getting upset because of the neighbors? What's really going on? Because of Hashem? I'm I'm so upset. I'm so upset my kid's missing Davin." Is it because you really care about Davin or because of your own expectations, your own frustrations, your own issues? >> Now, do you have a kus on that? Because a lot of people have blind spots. They don't oftenimes see that their jealousy is destructive or their anger is destructive. Sometimes spouses will point that out. But when you're going through midos, it's very easy to be blind to your own issues. Do you talk it out with someone? Do you have a kusa, a therapist, a rebby, you say, "I'm working on anger. I I see this creeping up over and over again. Am I missing something? Is there something that I that I'm not seeing in myself? >> I can't say particularly that I have. Maybe I could use a therapist, but uh I can't say particularly I have and I don't even know if therapists necessarily is their expertise is working through MIDIOS. I mean, they're definitely very helpful in different areas, but um I do think it's important, you know, the one of the girls asked me about this and I said, if you're stuck with something, you're jealous, you're angry, and you can't get out of it, it's very important to go to somebody who has that wisdom and a lot of people don't have it. It's not like, you know, a new person with a beard is going to be able to tell you, you know, how how to do it. Um, you know, to to ask somebody advice terms of flaws, it's very hard because, you know, even said like you know a lot of the flaws are so internal that it's very hard for someone else to even pick them up maybe your wife more than some others a lot of you have to pick up yourself really have to pick up yourself >> it's hard because we're living in a time where which is very performative like there's come back to that expectation and here I agree it's dangerous and damaging right I'm supposed to look act feel so I perform that way and and sometimes you can get confused between the performance and how you're really feeling inside so what you're describing is really being able to be vulnerable vulnerable and and vulnerable to yourself even before anyone else to like what's really driving this, which part of me is reacting that way, why, how can I have a conversation with it, you know, from the IFS model or whatever. But but >> I I told the girls last night and I want to share um it's so important that you understand how special you are. You're holy. You're nama. You're a soul. The mamm says you're every Jew has a soul greater than than a mouth, than an angel. People are afraid. People are so afraid to see themselves and they're afraid to see their flaws because they think if they see their flaw that like, you know, I'm a bad person. No, no, no. You're a great person. You're a wonderful person. And if you see your flaws, you're a much better person. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. My Rebi really one of the greatest things he taught us, we sat there, we talked about it. He exposed his own flaws, which I think was very powerful. People are afraid. And what happens is a person goes their whole life, it's blaming others. blaming others. My spouse is this, my spouse is that. If you don't work on yourself, you're going to see all the flaws in others and you don't see the flaws in yourself and it's just really difficult for other people to live with you and it's hard for you to live with yourself. >> When you wrote Olamidos, did you expect it to become as popular as it has? I mean, in Yeshiva's almost every seminary girl, my copy has been underlined. Each of my kids have crossed off my name, written their name and used, you know, we got to get more copies. When when you first wrote it, what was your expectation of it? Was it an exercise for yourself and if anyone else enjoys it good? Or did you write it thinking the world needs this and I hope they'll embrace this? >> I'm a little bit crazy. I I I I I for some reason I I didn't realize how presumptuous it was at the time. Um but I did think I remember going to them. I used to teach which is a beautiful safer but I would use it as a springboard because it's more kazal and not so much contemporary ideas you know for us. And I went on went to I think it was. I'm looking. Let me find the safer that I don't have to be like trying to add in my own things. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I couldn't find it. I thought there was a big need for it. I don't know why it doesn't didn't exist. It's a gift Hashem gave me. place. Um I thought it would become popular but um I didn't realize how presumptuous it was because a lot of good spir get lost when I when I when the distributor the Hebrew distributor um you know took the safer he's like okay I'm going to take like 25 okay 50 copies I'm give like 10 farm stores five each and I said okay and when they're done you'll order more he said not really because I have the next one coming in he said if people come in asking for it then I'll said how are they going to know it exists the thing that's actually why I started writing for the ATED. I started writing an English comm for the ATET because I figured then people will be exposed to to it. It's really desa but I I you know it's it's gone more than I okay it's gone beyond what I thought. I did have hopes I don't say expectations but I had hopes but uh it's gone more than I ever dreamed. I mean to meet people across the world or meet other people like and I tell my guys like I don't care if anyone knows my name like I hope after 120 like the biggest is say the said that I don't if I if I walk into yeshiva and someone's learning my safer I don't have to go over to them and say it's another long conversation but it talks about truths like honor people chase honor what all types of you only could chase stupid honor fake honor everyone stands up for you so they stand If you have a beer, they stand up for you. Honor. I see someone learning my safer. Is there a greater honor than that? The girls in NC why are learning my safer? I have a lot of flaws. It doesn't make any sense. It's a gift from Hashem. I think the savior is amazing. I do. But it's Hashem gave me a gift and Hashem made me the I don't know why. But that's the greatest honor. You know, it's another conversation. But, you know, but um yeah, >> it's something we struggle with. We talk about it a lot. Ego versus elocus. And how do you know with everything you do? You have a podcast, you give Shirum, you make a flyer promoting your shirum. You publish a safer. Is is that out of ego or is that out of elus? And and measuring everything through that matrix and how you can be honest with yourself about it and who around you can be the reinforcement to cover the blind spots about what's really driving. Is that ego? Is that elocus? Where is that really coming from? >> Yeah. My rebi would say a lot and I've told the guys I said I say some a lot of times I say I don't really know why I'm doing it. It's so important just be say I I don't I can't re it's very hard to really know I was you know I don't really know why I'm doing this am I doing it for the honor thing you know in general my philosophy in life which I don't know if I have a messiah exactly from this but this is the mess this is the mahalik I've tooken taken on which I think works really well and I believe to my bones it's right is I try not to take honor that is not necessary if I come to yeshiva and they say comes to the deas comes in the front the misvat Why? Why? Why? Just so I should feel good and and why should I really feel so good that I get in the front because I'm because I'm Rashiva because I have a beard. So, but so I'll try to defer. Not always, but if someone askked me to get a braha and I'm not like the closest, you know, rebi to him that I feel like I like he wants me so badly, I could try to work on myself and tell maybe have other people give it to them. You know, I'll show off. Totally showing off. I came to that I you know, I did a little thing by that go to convention. Not a big thing, but a little thing about the good convention. And then afterwards, he said, "Oh, come." There was the big speakers. He said, "Come to the to the thing." I'm not even I'm actually not even so interested. I'm supposed to be stuck there for three hours, but come sit at the top. What what's the purpose? But if someone says, "Come behind the beimma." I what could be a greater honor than that? And someone and someone says, "Come speak over here." >> Even if I'm doing it for honor, but but is it the right thing to do? Am I helping people? So that's justifiable. It's the right thing to do. Kazal say if you run away from honor it chases after you. So most people think you know the famous story they asked the Reb he said but it's not working. So I yeah because you're looking back I I don't know who the Reb is but I would disagree. If you run away from honor and you're just trying to do the right things even if you want honor even if you like honor as long as you don't make it your department and your chase and your purpose. Okay fine. Hashem gave you I look at it as Hashem gave me encouragement. I need we all need >> Let me ask you a question. So much of what you've been talking about the olamid dosos and so many of our other conversations have to do with the inner world of a person. How do you speak to a generation about the inner world when so much of it is external whether it's social media whether it so much of our world exists on how people perceive us. And all of a sudden now you're saying don't look at social media, don't look at the outside world, but you have to build an inside world, which is almost a vocabulary that is completely absent from the way children are growing up these days. So how do you even enter into that conversation and help people understand that while you're putting up that picture of yourself on social media and that's the image you're projecting to the world, that means nothing to me until you develop your inner world and they're going to look at you inner what? Like how do you enter into that conversation? Well, you know, could ask Avi every morning yhiva I do my rebi dead as we learn must serve 20 minutes half an hour right now I'm actually learning within my English safer which is not gotten out maybe one day it'll really maybe my best work is go run after the right covet it's all about selfrespect and respecting others and we we talk about this world and we talk about how covet really has to come from within that's you know feel from within I think that's the problem of our generation is a lack of self-esteem all the problems we see in today people someone told me you know the other day oh the the boys today and such a yates sahara it's such a mistake it's not the sahara by itself it's not really the zara it is boys who feel rejected feel unaccepted and when you feel rejected and you feel unaccepted and you have nowhere to go so you're going to look to your phone people don't want to be watching pornography people don't be watching all these things I understand once they're addicted be hard to get out but people didn't start there and get involved with these things because they there such desires they felt rejected they felt broken and you know I want to share with you the system the most important ingredient for a school for yeshiva is this one word I know the was amazing just love them okay but you know my title would be just respect them just respect every single word respect means I I >> love you can love your dog. Love means I care about you. Love means you know I love you. You know parents could love their kid and not respect them too. Rebeam could love the kid and not respect them. I think people need especially from the rebum respect more than they need love from them. >> How do you how do you demonstrate respect? What is respect? >> Respect means that I look at you and I hold of you. I think you're special. I see your soul. I see that you're a child of Hashem. You know, are people that are socially not well, you know, and people have no patience to them. It drives bothers me so much. First of all, don't you feel bad for them? But second of all, they're Hashem's child. >> You told the song really stuck with me. I must have repeated it a hundred times. >> You spoke about where the bullying in the classroom comes from. And you remember what you told us? >> Yes. Yeah. I feel it's very I feel very I I hope Hashem gives me the ability one day to to some get this to every yeshiva in every school. Schools need to run on respect and it has to start from the top you know in every facet. The reason why kids go wants me to tell what I say feel very strongly. The reason why there's bullying in schools in my opinion I'm clear on this is because the teachers are bullying the kids and the school is not demanding respect. When you roll your eye at that kid who's making trouble and you don't value the kid that has ADHD and can't sit still, you're teaching the kids that you can dismiss and you could respect someone. They may choose that kid to dismiss, but likely they'll choose the class nerd to dismiss. You've taught them you could dismiss. >> What we told us was that the kids in the classroom perceive like if if if there's a kid who's annoying to the rebby, then that's a license for you to pick on that kid. So when the annoyed by the kid, rolls their eyes at the kid, has no patience for the kid. >> I'd say more than that. It's not that kid. They could dismiss another kid. You've taught them you could dismiss. It's not necessarily that kid. That kid popular kid, but you've taught them you could dismiss. You taught them you dismiss somebody. I tell the kids and I smish boys and this is what I would do in any school and I tell every every principal first day of course you have to live this way otherwise it just talk in this this place in this yeshiva we treat everybody with respect and by the way you know I have a lot of tolerance there's one thing I have very little tolerance for >> now I won't judge you >> you got to validate the people who struggle to respect one second one second but if I will not allow another kid to be disrespected or to be bullied or to be mistreated in Mayoshiva and I don't think anyone should allow and you know who benefits that kid that's mistreating that's bullying he benefits and he stops bullying very soon because he feels respected he doesn't need a bully he feels good because he knows in this place everyone's valued everyone everyone's respected the principles have to teach the teachers with respect the teachers have to treat each other with respect you have to treat the janitors with respect everybody has to be treated with respect and the kids will thrive will thrive in such a yeshiva. >> So play it out. How do how do you deal with it? So you know Ruvane bullied Shimon and now you call Ruvane in. How do you on the one hand tell him I can't tolerate? What are you going to say? I'm not judging you that you bullied him but I can't tolerate it. Or I want to validate you that you wanted to bully him but you can't do that. No, I'm being serious and trying to play that a little bit because because it brings back to my point which is there are things that are not valid. We shouldn't validate. So what we're saying is the kid annoy tell me more. What made you feel that way? Did something happen at home? Are you angry? Do you feel less than or why why that kid? Of course, you can acknowledge that a feeling came from somewhere. But like I don't want to validate that you felt >> I don't want to validate that you bullied him. That's that's something that cannot be validated. >> Yes. So So first of all, you don't always have to say those words and I don't judge. A lot of it is just your body language and how you're handling the situation, where you're coming from. But um you know, I would call the kid. Listen, I think if the school is done right, it doesn't even happen. Really, it doesn't happen. I'm I'm totally serious. It doesn't happen. But if it does happen, you call the kid into office and say, "I care about you, and I would never want someone to put you down and hurt your feelings." And I have to tell you, it bothers me so much that you really hurt that kid's feelings. So, and the kid looks and says, "Barbby, you you're not validating me because that kid, you don't know what they did to me. How they make me feel how they >> kids do not kids do not use that language. They won't say you're not validating me. They sense that I'm sincere. I care about them. I love them. And I love the kid they picked on." And they sense if now some rebay and some teachers favorite. They have favorites. They're kids that they like better and the kids they respect more. And that stuff is dangerous. If the kid honestly knows that I value him and would never let someone start up with him, he'll say, "I'm sorry." That's what he's gonna say. He's not gonna say, "You're judging me." >> You said something else. You said something else with the fly in that stuck with me. You said many everything you said stuck with me. But another thing that you said was um when it came to the time that you had in Waterberry, you said it's very easy to love someone else's kid. >> Yeah. >> Can you elaborate on that? >> Yeah. I always say everyone I tell the parents you know really parents needing and I don't you know try to speak to parents softly about the challenges you know don't judge them but I always would tell parents you know you could be a rebre too when it's not your kid you could love them and love their hair and love their thing and of course that goes back to what we said before you're reacting to how it makes you feel you feel you're a failure as a parent I never judge myself by how my par my children perform I judge myself by how good of a parent I am. I never judge myself as a Rebi as Rashiva as how well my students are learning. I judge myself by how well I'm treating them. That is up to them. If someone tells me, "Oh, you changed my son's life." No, I didn't change your son's life. Your son changed his own life. We are supports. We are coaches. We are not manipulators. We are not arm breakers. We help you and support you till you get there. And we do it in the most respectful way. If Rashiva believes you should be tougher, you know, it's not my approach. Maybe it's just my personality. Be tougher. Okay. But be sensitive and be respectful. To embarrass kids, to scream at kids, to make people feel like pieces of garbage. I'm sorry. That I have a problem with. >> Yeah, for sure. And that generation of of taking out the ruler, smacking around, embarrassing and shaming. >> I've met countless people who are off the D because of those rebay. >> Yeah. And sometimes someone goes along, but are they really healthy? Do they become healthy husbands, healthy fathers? Do they become healthy Jews? >> We have a couple minutes left. Um, take us a little bit behind the beimma. >> Literally. >> Yeah, >> I got it. >> Take us a behind the bea for for the last two minutes. >> Go for another hour, but yeah, >> I know we I want to talk. I want to talk. We're going to have to do part two and part three of >> uh Yes. I apologize. >> I know this. >> You You want to ask the last question? You can ask the last question. You're ready. No, you're ready. >> I was going to go into music, but you can >> go. >> No, no. I was going to say that, you know, I've I've recently noticed a phenomenon of people, young men in particular, started in Waterberry, who are writing English music about emotions, about brokenness, about connecting to Hashem through pain and through difficulty. And I've seen that spread over the last couple of years. Not every singer loves it. I got a little push back. I wrote about it a few weeks ago and some people responded and say, "Why are these people putting this out there? It's it's validating inappropriate behaviors and emotions. It's exposing things. It's making things that used to not be tolerated now acceptable. I think it's a beautiful thing. I'm curious your perspective. Would you, if a tal came to you and said, you know, Rebby, I'm really having difficulty connecting with Hashem and I'm going to put it into song and publicize it afterwards. Would you say maybe you don't have to put it out there like we could talk about that, but you don't have to express that to the world. >> Should be celebrating struggle, >> right? Should I be celebrating struggle? >> Honestly, I haven't listened to the songs. I'm not such a music guy. Um but you know but uh so I I have to listen to I have to listen to the words and is it gonna give to people or not to people you know >> it's very what you love about it is it's very validating because what happens is someone hears that music or those lyrics and they say >> you know I guess I'm not the only one struggling and it's okay and that person's made a song out >> of I'd have to hear I'm not hearing what the people are against and I'd have to listen and then hear what people are you know you're saying you about it. You know, I composed my own song, didn't get out, you know, but uh >> more important the safer got out. >> Have to attach the the song to the safer. >> But uh yeah, >> we're going to need a part two. Rashiva, I want to talk more about who are your inspirations or pair your rebi was one. Who are the others that helped you see the world in this way? And who were your role models and examples? I want to get into and some of the conversation we were having about >> I just did shim with while you connect. So yeah, so we can >> Yeah, but we'll do it better. So we have to have that conversation. >> You'll listen if you get no offense others. We have we have to have that conversation too and more on and more on and more on more. So we'll look forward to having you back. But thank you for your time. Thanks for coming behind the beimma. Thank you for as I said we we agree infinitely more we disagree and I certainly defer to your experience and expertise but I think teasing out and I think the language is important on some of these things because >> you know we talk about not knowing ourselves is dangerous but I also think that maybe making the pendulum swing too far in the other direction with children is also dangerous sort of equating them and they're my best friend and there's no expect and there's no consequence and we just love and there's no >> acceptance I think acceptance versus approval is a very important point people think that accept accepting everything is approve. It has to be approving. I have to tell them what you're doing is right. It's not necessary and it's not healthy. It's not the truth. A huge huge. Thank you for your time. Thanks for coming behind the beimma. >> Pleasure. >> Thank you for inspiring Claw Israel. >> Thank you. Thank you for everything you're doing for Claw Israel. >> Thank you for listening to Behind the Bea. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. We'll see you next week for another Peak Behind the Bea.