From Kuwait to Jerusalem: Mark Halawa's Journey to Judaism | Behind the Bima #190

[music] Welcome to the latest episode of Behind the Beam. I'm so excited that the intro to this episode is going to be with the one and only the great Rabbitson, YV Goldberg. Welcome, Rabbitson Goldberg. >> Thank you for having me. >> My pleasure. Y you're really the perfect uh person to open this episode with both as a follow-up to the last episode Rabbit and Shakar we've gotten so much feedback about and also as an introduction to this episode a conversation we had with Mark Halawa. Um Mark is a fascinating fascinating individual uh incredible origins began as part of a a different religion in a different society and today is an observant Jew living in spoiler I don't want to spoil it so I'll let you hear it. Um, but there's a lot for us to talk about both as a follow-up to Revit and Shakar and also our experience, our trip to the UAE and what opened up our eyes, our hearts and our minds to those who are different than us and just meeting people and how that changes things. You don't vilify. Let's start with Rebbitson Shrear. You've been getting a lot of feedback from the episode. >> I've been getting some feedback. I think that what was great about Rebbitson Shakar was how real she was. She always is. But certainly in a conversation one-on-one, what I loved about what she said, my favorite parts were when she was speaking about what it's like for her generation. I mean, everyone who knows me knows I'm a little bit Holocaust obsessed. So, I will admit that >> a little bit. And when you grow up with grandparents and when it's in your world, it's hard not to be. Um, and when it's so important to me to pass it on to the next generation, it is definitely something that's center in my life. But what she said was interesting about how her generation they struggle with the fact that they don't know so much about their parents about their stories. they don't want to burden them with having to tell them and tell them stories and tell them details and so there are so many holes in their stories and I know that um you know my parents struggle with that and have that and I know a lot of Holocaust survivors children struggle with that especially because their children want so badly to know and to understand better and to be able to put the whole family um story in like you know a very clear like timeline um historical context you know details family names all these different details that might end up being lost because they just did not ask. >> You saw that very poignantly on our Poland trip. >> Yes. >> Tell everyone the dinner that night what happened. >> Yes. Yes. We did a few years a few years ago. It's already like probably 10 years ago, but we ran a trip to Poland and most of the participants of the trip were first generation sec is it first generation is the ones after the children of of Holocaust survivors basically. And um it was their first time going to Poland from all of them I think and it was their first time really facing more of like what their parents had lived there in the place in the right and uh one of the first nights we had every night after we went somewhere we had a recap of the day and we would talk and try to uh process yeah process it together and have those conversations and uh one of the nights that we did that uh we came back from a very all the days were very difficult but I think that might have been the tripinka day and We saw some very uh you know it was very hard everywhere we went. There's so much loss and these are people who felt directly impacted because their own parents had been through it. And there was one woman who broke down and really just could not breathe. She could not control herself. She was beyond >> inconsolable almost a panic attack. >> Yeah. Because she just kept saying I I h I now I know all this now I understand it a little bit better and my mother is not around for I have so many questions. so many questions for my mother. She's not here. I can't ask her and I can't even like >> identify or relate to her. I can't even feel bad because I never really understood. And now I'm seeing a little bit of the picture and she's no longer here and I can't discuss it with her. And she was in so much pain over that. And it was it was just so sad to see. And throughout that whole trip, you saw that pain and those feelings of people who I finally understand a little bit. I finally am seeing a little bit. And they're not here for me to acknowledge or to appreciate or to show them that understanding. and and they're also not here for be able to hear a little bit more about their story. >> You and I will never ever forget that night that image of that woman hyperventilating, crying out. And this was a private quiet woman. It wasn't for attention, you know, or drama. Sometimes on the teenage trips to Poland, there's a lot of drama. Who cried the most, who felt the most, who needs the most comfort, who needs the most consolation. This was not drama. This was a woman who was inconsolable because she had this harsh reality that I now have so many questions and it's too late to ask. Right? >> And I don't know for those people listening if there are people you have questions and by the way they don't have to be Holocaust survivors your own parents about their upbringing about your background about your childhood about their childhood. >> Don't wait with any regret until it's too late to ask. There was someone else on the trip, someone we admire a lot and who's had a big impact on our community and us um who's a very accomplished professional and his father who as a survivor worked in the local post office and he also it transformed him and he became obsessed with talking not only about he said the Holocaust most people commemorate the martyrs the Kadoshim the six million who lost their lives but really we should celebrate the million the survivors the survivors are the heroes who found a way to rebuild and he talked about his father that his whole childhood he thought my father. It's like a neb. He works in the post office. You know, I I have a degree. I'm a professional. I have a huge firm. I'm super successful. And after we walked his his father's footsteps of the camp that his father was in, >> he became consumed by >> I'm the nebak. My father was a malik. He was an angel. Yep. I remember. >> He said, "I thought he was just a lowly post office worker. He was an angel. An angel of my father was a malik." >> But I'm not even sure how he got into >> I didn't even know. I didn't know. I didn't realize. It was heartbreaking. It was heartbreaking. But let's come back to Rebbitz and Shakar. So Rebbitson Shakar is Rashar's partner in all of his accomplishments and achievements and all that he does. She spoke about how many people come to their apartment, how many phone calls they get, how much advice they give, the lack of follow-up. I actually referenced it. It was very sweet. I got an email that I read this week in the Amunir about somebody who said, "Five years ago, I wrote you about the miscarriage. I never followed up. I want you to know about the baby I had afterwards." And that's so deeply deeply appreciated. >> Yeah, I had that this week also. there was someone who has been for already a few years having one of these like a strange difficult relationship with her married children and um doesn't want to visit them because it's always so difficult when she goes and doesn't know how she's going to be received and she called me this week and said you know I had a recent visit with them and I got a hug and it was much better than it has been and I just wanted to let you know that and I was like thank you [laughter] I appreciate you telling me because I've been worried about this family and you know I feel for them and the advice through the years and the you know just to know that things are improving And you know, I I really appreciated that that follow. >> I think sometimes people don't appreciate that when they meet with us, we write down their name. We davin for them. We think about them. If we haven't followed up, sometimes it's because we could be better and and certainly we can improve. But often we don't follow up because we're also giving someone space and privacy and it's unclear that they want followup. You know, it feels intrusive to ask afterwards how it's going. So you just end up with their name in your fileos >> and wondering and not knowing. So we do appreciate but >> worry about this. There was another thing that she said, another another topic that she spoke about how um you know in her days she was picking up all the pieces at home. She was doing everything [clears throat] at home, the child rearing and the you know the all the errands and all the jobs in the house whatever so that he could really focus. So one of our sons-in-law >> no she said she caught him washing the dishes. >> Right. Right. She complained what are you doing? He complained, "Why am I the only one who always has to wash the dishes?" And didn't say a word. And the next day, she came home to find him standing at the sink washing the dishes, which was not her intention. And she made sure he never washed the dishes. >> Right. Right. Right. So, so he said, "I'm listening to the rebbit and shear behind the beimma while I'm washing the dishes." And now I feel like I don't know if I'm doing the right thing. She's saying I shouldn't be washing the dishes. So, everyone took from that interview, you know, what they want. Fantastic. My my favorite piece of feedback was one of her children >> who texted me and said they learned something new they hadn't known >> about their mother and how she met the father and I loved that was great. But talk about the role of rabbitson. Um some people don't appreciate. You know the rabbi is the one who's paid. He has a salary and a contract and he's the >> on the beimma. This is behind the beimma. The rabb is the one on the beimma. But behind the beimma in real life, not just in a podcast studio is the rebbitson. And it's a complicated position because the rebbitson doesn't get a salary. and uh doesn't get doesn't get paid compensated no job expectations or responsibilities in some way everything she does is volunteer and in other ways there are a lot of expectations that people have of the rebbitson attending simas and events and shiva calls being available for questions and consulting expecting to be hosted for a shabas meal or other events and it's it's it's sort of a balance and some women have said I'm not a rebbitson I have a career you hired my husband as the rabbi I don't go with him but that's not you to the degree that when you were dating you only wanted to date >> someone who was going to go into rabbanas of odakodeses >> for the most part right yeah >> because you wanted to be a rebbitson your parents will say that you were a rebbitson from a young age >> even before you were married >> I loved I I looked forward to a life like this I I felt that this would be something that I would love I would appreciate it would be meaningful to me and I felt that my co-host could contribute towards that life um did I know that you'd become who you would know. You never know that when you're dating. So, a little uh heads up to all the daters. If you want something like this, it's not usually like that when you're in your early 20s and you kind of build it together and see where life takes you. >> Can I interrupt you for one second? Sure. I apologize. I want to interrupt you only because last night I participated in an event where I interviewed a former classmate of mine who wrote a book and making a joke but also being serious. I don't know. I'm I'm some people critically think I'm too open a book, but I'm an open book. TMI. >> I think it's what makes me relatable. I think people connect because I'm willing to let them in. So, in introducing the conversation and there were other former classmates of mine in the room, I said, which is 100% true. I said they, the person I was interviewing and others, they were all in the top class. I was never in the top class. They all were in the honor society. I was never in the honor society. I said, and they were the cool crowd. And I was always trying to break into the cool crowd. And now I've arrived because here I am interviewing one of the cool kids. And everybody laughed and it was a cute opening. And someone came up to me after the event and said, "Can I bring my child to talk to you?" I said, "Yeah, of course. I love your child. I'd love to meet with them." I said, "About what?" Said, 'You know, my child feels that unless you're like a superstar, you're nothing. Unless you're amazing and super skilled and the superstar, you're nothing. She said, "When you said that you didn't do well in school, and now I think of she was saying about me, like you're in the front of the room, you're giving the speeches, you're writing the articles, you're whatever, whatever I am." She said, "Can you tell that to my can you tell that to my child?" I see absolutely. So, I was a classic underachiever and I didn't do well and I don't know that I am anything now, but I certainly didn't think I would become it then. You didn't know. And my point is your message about dating and marriage also is that you don't know like I think in marriage people help make one another too. Like you mature together, you grow, you influence. That's why it's so important to be open to influence in dating and in marriage. And you help mold you molded me. I thought I was going into I was on the track and trajectory for and you were the one who said it's wrong. You belong in Rabonas. I'm grateful to you every day of my life because you saw that you pushed me towards that and you changed my life because of it. Anyway, that's I'm just elaborating. That's a really important point is that we're we're not finished products. We're not finished products in middle school. We're not finished products. I I told this I spoke in a local school. I'm coming back to you in one second. I'm sorry. I spoke in a local school and I had just come back from a wedding in New York and um there was a classmate of mine. It was a mutual classmate's child's wedding and there was a classmate of mine there who was always star athlete and a really cool guy and again I wanted to be star athlete. I wanted to be a cool guy and that was my childhood. And here we were and he was telling me how his children listened to all the shirim and loved the shirim and he said to me, "Can I take a selfie with you?" So when I came back, I was speaking to a middle school here and I said, "If I could talk to the middle school me and say that that kid that I'm trying to break in with will later in life asked to take a selfie with me, if only I could talk to the younger version of me." Again, I don't think I'm any I don't think anyone should take a selfie. I don't think anyone I'm anything. But my point is that in life, you just you never know. And if the us now could talk to the younger version of us. So, we're not finished products. Not in middle school and not necessarily in dating and not even who you marry. You're not marrying a finished product. And we're all evolving. And back to you. I'm sorry for the detour. >> No, it's okay. The detour is good. Um, yeah, I think just most people who are going into this life are not necessarily like they don't know. They're not saying rebbitson is not a career, you know, it's not like a career path. It's not a profession. So even if you it's only by virtue of the fact that you married someone who will be a rabbi. So that's something to realize. You're not, you know, you may not be that person, but you could do those kind of things without having that title. There are a lot of people who are the machines of their community or they give sharim or they are constantly hosting or getting involved in whatever there is that's available in their community to be a leader of. You don't have to necessarily have that title. That's also something to keep in mind that even if you're that personality, you know, you could be that person on your own. It doesn't have to be by virtue of who you marry. It does make it a little bit more official and formal when you could do it in that capacity. So, I love the fact and we always talk about this and our kids have come to appreciate it also is that when you are in this position of Rabbi Rabbitson, community leader, have that official title and role, people see you in that way and you're automatically able to play that role in people's lives in the community because you have that title. That's what's nice about being a Rebbitson is that you don't have to do it, but you have the opportunity to do it. And I see it as an opportunity. I see it as the ability to be the one to be able to, you know, the Ka's excited to dance with because you're their Revitson from growing up or at the Shiva when you walk in, it's so meaningful because their Rebbitson came to pay Shiva call. Um, you find out about the person who needs the meal, who needs the who needs the love and you're able to provide that, you know, because you know about it usually before most others. And to me that's a privilege. And even though it isn't a paid position and it's not an official, you know, you don't go to school for it and you're not, you know, getting a degree for it, it's something that could come along with the territory of marrying a very busy involved leadership rabbi position and you are able to have that role too. So you know, it's really what you make of it and I respect the people who have their own professions and feel like, okay, just because I'm married to a rabbi doesn't mean that I want to now start taking on that role. There is so much that a Rebbitson can do and in some communities are obligated to do. Um our community has been great because they don't obligate. They really just, you know, and they don't expect. I I think that when I feel like, oh my gosh, I I have to do that or I didn't do that. It's really coming from myself because I badly want to be that person. And when I can't be, I always just feel so bad that I didn't do, you know, what I would have wanted to do. But it's not. There were very few situations where someone said to me, you know, I'm really upset that you didn't come to AB and C or you weren't there that time when I need, you know, it really hasn't happened often. I could count on maybe one hand where someone has had that feedback. Um, you know, I do try my best and when I can't be there, no one really, you know, gets all bent out of shape because I know that I can. I have Barak Hashem a busy household. I mean, is lessening as the years go by. We're down to two kids who live in the house now from seven Khara. So, but you know, married kids still take time and it's busy. >> I'm I'm already hearing the feedback even as we're talking, which is needs our whole episode. There should be a whole episode of behind the beimma with >> it's not that much. >> So, we're going to continue the conversation because a lot more to unpack. But I am going to ask those who are listening and watching. >> Your parents say that you were a rebbitson already from a young youngish age. If you went to camp with YVD or seminary with YV or college with YVD and you saw in her back then that she'd be a great rebbitson, let us know. Let us know why. Let us know what you saw. So, we've got a couple minutes. Maralawa, great guest. Our trip to the UAE. Uh, we had Lo Al Sharif who we met and that episode or bonus episode is coming out, the conversation with him. Give us in a couple of minutes your impressions of the UAE. Huda, your new friend from the UAE, Dubai and Abu Dhabi. Give us a minute or two. >> Okay. So, for sure. It's funny because we were talking about our Poland trip. We've gone on many different types of trips. This Dubai trip was so eye- openening in such a different way. Um, you know, I've spoken about this before. I grew up in a much more sheltered home. We were pretty homogeneous in our community. Schools, camps, shors, you know, it was all pretty similar, same type. I really had nothing to do with non-Jews, let alone Muslims growing up. And even in our more open, broad, you know, life here in Bokeh, this just not someone who comes into my daily life and cross paths with. So when we went to Dubai, I was coming in with the feelings of Muslims, Arabs, Palestinians, kamas. Like that was my train of thought. Um, but I did hear that Dubai was very beautiful and, you know, has a lot to see and the touring and the hotels and the food and there's a lot there and I was excited as kind of like a touristy kind of trip and that was really what I was going in with. And I also knew we were going to meet with some dignitaries and and personalities there and I was excited about that. I'm always open to new things and I love meeting new people and I was looking forward to getting a new perspective and but that what I got out of it was nothing that I expected. I was blown away. The people we met were so open, were so respectful, were so excited to meet us. And I felt safer walking around the streets of Dubai, UAE, you know, than than I do here in I mean, Florida, I feel very safe, truthfully, but if I'd walk into Manhattan or if I'd go travel, you know, sometimes in the airport, I feel, you know, are people looking? Are people noticing? And there I felt so totally safe. People, not only did they tolerate us, but they loved us. They were so excited about us. They feel like they're our cousins. There was like that sense of a real coexistence. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. And it was it was really like totally eye opening. Huda was our tour guide. She was a Muslim woman who was adorable. She had a great personality. She was young. She was had like so much very knowledgeable also and really just like we were like sharing notes about our cultures, our religions, what you need to do, what's more cultural. Um, and it was fascinating and there was a lot in common there. And she very much sees us as like part of the same family, you know, that we could connect and relate on so many things. And, you know, this is not I'm not in touch with her. It's not like I plan on, you know, having this ongoing relationship. There are a lot more people that I need to be in touch with. But it was definitely eye opening. really did change my whole impression that when we went to Israel a few days later and we were walking through the Arab shook where in the past I was always like you know very nervous about what could happen and maybe this is just me cuz I'm very polyianish about this and once I was in Dubai and seeing how open and people were so nice and loved us maybe now both of us but right so it was funny how that carried over but then I was like we were talking about I was like still be careful it's not like everyone incredible exception they are a tiny tiny but but it made me feel a glimmer of hope that people could be like this that there could be this relationship and I I'm always very hopeful and optimistic and I try to see the good >> people living in the Gaza envelope all thought that they're >> right >> best friends and neighborly and things are good for sure >> they believed in what we walked away with and they turned out to be duped we don't think we are so it's our don't know who are on the right side of things but as you say it gives us the the ability to believe so this was a little this was a little appetizer we're going to do a whole behind the bea with Goldberg because we have to talk about marriage, parenting, life. There's >> behind the marriage. >> There's so much to [laughter] talk about. But thank you for this. This was a great conversation and we're excited. Mark Halawa, an amazing story and a fantastic personality. And without any further ado, we're really excited to share Mark with you. We're so excited to be back with you behind the bea with Mark Morai Malawa. What a story that you have. a story that should be told and heard and story that was always fascinating and relevating relevant but particularly now as we're seeing the Middle East and the world changing in dynamic and radical ways. Stories even I think more resonant today than ever. So thank you for being with us. Thank you for going behind the beimma. >> My pleasure. You could pronounce my my name halawa. I know it sounds like malaw. I know it sounds some other stuff but let me just help you remember it forever. Halawa is kalva. Somebody was making khalva back in the day and they give you a name of your profession. And that's where the name came from. >> Unbelievable. Today you live in Israel. >> I live in Israel. >> Where do you live? >> Jerusalem. >> Salam. >> Now >> got married and my children were born here. >> Absolutely incredible. Um, in your childhood, if anyone would have asked you or you would have bet on it, what were the odds you're going to be married to a Orthodox observant Jewish woman living in Jerusalem in Urus? I am raising your children uh strictly observant Jewish. What would you have said the odds were? The thought wouldn't even come to mind to to even think about odds. There's no odds. Zero does not exist. >> The same odds of you to ask us that our children would be, God forbid, would be married. But in your case, thank God, >> Brother Fran, but they have a reality in their mind. You know, they, you know, kids know that they're Jewish or not Jewish and this is what interests them or where they would go. We grew up in I'm not going to say extreme antsism where I'm sitting down screaming Jews, Jews, Jews all day long. No. But you live in an environment where um anti-Jewish normal casual talk and religious talk and political talk and whatever the angle that comes at you uh leaves you in a way where you cannot even imagine anything positive about Israel or Jews or right >> we didn't say Israel back in the day obviously but we say Jews Jews Jews there's no anti-semit antionism all that politically correct stuff so um >> let's take a step back because the truth is let's tell you a story for those who don't know and we can't do it justice this people should read. You could find it online. It deserves a documentary that's hours long and that chapters are still being written of it. But let's take a step back because where are we talking about that you grew up hearing the anti-Jewish sentiment was Kuwait? >> I was born and raised in Kuwait. Yeah. My dad worked in Kuwait. My mom's father ended up going to Kuwait. There's stories behind these things. I don't know how much time we have. My grandfather used to work in the Jordanian army. This is the time where he met my my grandmother. Um they went together to >> Where was your grandmother born? >> So my grandmother was is born in Israel. was born in Israel. Um, I have confirmation about this. Now, I'm here meeting my mom. Um, and I even know the year and everything else. So, I used to think my grandmother was born in Turkey, but my mom's grandmother is the Turkish lady. >> Anyhow, um, just to get the detail here and stay on point. My grandfather married my grandma at some point, excuse me for not knowing the exact detail, they went to Nablo in the West Bank. Seven or of eight children were born including my mom. I did not know that my mom lived in for 10 years. I did not know. This is just recent information. My parents don't talk about these things. I'm not really, >> you know, I don't care about things and we never cared. We grew up secular as anything. We hated religions. We hated anybody with a beard. We looked down at them. We stayed away. In a way, I was lucky. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been here today if if I had affiliations or whatever. Never went to mosque. My dad wouldn't even let me stroll with my friends. >> But going back, your grandparents were in Nablas as non as as Muslims, as Arabs. >> Muslims. My grandma was born there, lived there. They the Jordanian army moved them at some point to southern Aman in Jordan. Then the 70s came a couple years after they moved which uh Black September events occurred in Jordan. My grandfather was fired or cashiered from the Jordanian army. And uh the guy has eight children in feed now. Had one more child in in in Jordan. So eight mouths to feed and he has no job. Kuwait was just coming out. [cough] Kuwait became an independent country in and my dad there was there a couple years later um established himself. My father was there there the 70s early '7s when I'm not really sure he started working and getting things going. Then he brought the family over from Jordan and this is where somebody make the shik between my parents and the rest is history. um they were blessed with the presence of myself and four of my siblings. Um this is the story in a nutshell. When there's a lot of anti-semitism back just to build a picture for you, um you hear about it here and there, you get you get information, pieces of information, people likes to talk about politics or likes to tell you about philosophy, where the Jews are, who the Jews are, all that. But then you'll be sitting down minding your business, watching TV at night time, like do what we like doing the most, my siblings and I and my dad will come over 9:00 or 8:00. Give me the remote. Just want just want to watch the news for two seconds. Youngster remote switches the channel just to see what they say. I'm watching Nightrider and I'm trying to remember where we're stopped. This is the 80s. And then the guy comes over on TV, the same mustache, same look every day. Same guy who goes, "Today on the news, Zionist bullets penetrated the body of a so and soy year old kid who died slowly to the hospital." Some something like, you know, not exactly the words that I'm saying right now. And uh in other words, Manchester United won two to one in the soccer playoffs. Great. That gives us our mo. We go on. Now, I hear these things in the back of my mind. Sometimes it just catches your attention, but nothing. But then when there's a lot of these Zionist bullets flying, nobody tells you why there's bombs flying around hit people. Was somebody throwing a Molotov cocktail? Did somebody shoot someone, stab someone? There's no there's no feedback. Same kind of news as today on Alazer, but different. >> You go to school these days when there's a lot of this katapa news, you could almost guess, if you're a brilliant student like myself, you could almost guess that the teacher is not gonna ask for homework that day. is gonna hijack that class and talk about stuff of related to the Palestinian. So, so just to try to imagine and remember which I do not 100% remember the time, but I would say this is an inif period time or violence of that level. So, you go to the classroom and the teacher goes from the coolest to the not cool teacher. Everybody starts to philosophize. The Arabic language teacher suddenly knows politics and pulls the map. He goes, "Look where they This is a Syrian guy. Not very popular in an American school. Syrian uh sorry, an American language an sorry an Arabic language teacher in an American school. Not very popular. Goes look where they planted the Jews. Look where the Brits and Americans planted the Jews. right in the heart of the of the Arab world after they destroyed the Ottoman caliphate or what you guys insist on calling in English with all respect when I say you guys as North Americans and Europeans and English speakers the Ottoman Empire there's notori look where they planted it they destroyed the Ottoman caliphate he's talking from his point of view planted the Jews right there in the middle so right in the middle you You could never combine the caliphate again just so we could never establish a new Islamic caliphate. And that's what the Jews want. They want to destroy >> hijack school to plant and embed messages of >> I didn't tell you about the the Muslim uh faith teacher. I'm not going to. So not to make it uh you know my thing. >> But you grew up in environment where there was hostility toward Jews. You were being indoctrinated with anti-Jewish sentiment everywhere you >> turn to TV on Friday and hear the sermon which has to be broadcast to the same thing. math teacher will walk in and say, "If five if one bomb kills five Jews, how many could it kill with six?" And I always want to ask her. She's my favorite teacher. I'm good at math. >> Wow. >> So, yeah. >> So, this was Kuwait in the 80s. >> This was Kuwait in my time. 80s. Kuwait is still a a very um um Kuwait is under Muslim Brotherhood. Uh let's say it's a very tiny country. Cool. >> Is that when you say you're meeting your mom, where do they live now? >> My mom is in Florida. Right here down. Yeah. >> Plantation. >> Okay. Uh my grandma too. She goes back and forth. I just asked yesterday and I was told she went back to the Middle East. She'll be back again. My my my mom's family lived in Florida and from New York and in Florida for like 45 years or something like that. >> Got it. >> Um >> how does your mom identify religiously or nationally? >> My mom has a hijab. I took her out to a restaurant the other day and she was concerned about how people see you. Like mom just, you know, you don't have to like tie up the hijab. You could, you know, like back in the day, you know, just flow, let your hair flow, or put a something, a shawl on your hair. >> Yeah. >> Well, we took a break in the story. Hold on. You're growing up in Kuwait. You're being indoctrinated with anti-Jewish sentiment and and here you are sitting in Bocarone synagogue. So, obviously, something happened along the way. >> First of all, thank you so much for bringing it back because I could go on and on and with that. Um when the war happened 1994 the Gulf War um we're on vacation in Spain. At that point we were already my dad has applied for Canadian citizenship immigration sorry status and we're like just everything is ready. We all we need to is just to fly there to stamp and start the count. So on vacation that summer just before we go to Canada and my dad is finalizing all his business. My dad's an engineer, builder in Kuwait, has some lawsuits to do. Anyways, we're on vacation enjoying our time in Spain. You know, my dad's trying to feed us pork. My mom's trying to avoid the pork and you know, she knows what pork means in every single European language. And um life is relaxed. Wake up one morning, my mom starts screaming, "Oh my god, oh my god. Wake up. Wake up. Look at the news. Kuwait just became a wreck. What are you talking about, Mom? I I don't get it." I got up and heard them all listening to Arabic BBC radio. My dad is like a rock, not moving, not blinking, not talking. You know, something's wrong. Um, we heard the news, we understood what's going on. My dad goes, "Okay, we're going to pack up and go to Jordan." This is just It's a long answer what you asked for. We went to Jordan. My dad left us there. literally just dropped us off and and and drove to Kuwait to just gather whatever documents he could for whatever business dealings. I started clean up the house with my mom. There's a TV here. I turn the TV on. They have an couple extra channels that we had in Kuwait. One of the channels had what looks like a a Sesame Street and few seconds I'm like what language is this? Suddenly somebody says shalom. Now I I tell this to people and I share it with my friends who work in Minister of Foreign Affairs and like public uh diplomacy. I first was shocked to my core. Oh my gosh, these are Jews. They look like us. They have ears and eyes and whatever. Then commercials will come up and mom's hugging their children and feeding them yogurt and stuff. I'm like, you don't hear these things about Jews supposedly people are just, you know, hunting Muslims in the street. This is what I was told. You could ask any of your friends and I I heard you went to to to to Dubai. Ask ask your friends there. People are honest about telling you we were under this type of indoctrination, >> but they were brave to move on. Anyways, so we started watching Israeli TV. My mom and my siblings, everybody. Then my dad came back from Kuwait. Guess what? He joined the Israeli TV and they had like really nicer shows. The Simpsons were just starting and stuff like that. So then school started. I went to school and discover everybody, the entire country is watching Israeli TV there. Kuwait, I was stressed out on charge and you know you have to act a certain way and they ask you in school what type of jihad would you take upon yourself and all and here Jordan is like 80% 70% Palestinians. Everybody says hey man tonight is going to be uh Top Gun by Tom Cruz on channel 2 Israel and then they tell you oh you don't know the days of the week in Hebrew you have to know them in order to know what time the shows start. when they say you need to know and that was the case. So we went from intense seriously feelings to such relaxed way of casual way of speaking about Israel, Israeli TV, Israeli channels. >> And now you're living in Jordan for how long? >> I lived four years, four and a half years in Jordan. >> Four and a half years ago. >> The whole country were like that. And if you want to watch some truth news instead of uh imagination, you go to Israeli channel and watch the see what actually is going on. So that already opened up your mind, softened you towards Yes. >> possibility. >> And thank God for that really. >> And then what happened next? >> Then I went to school. Um we went to uh instead of Canada went to Canada. Then we went to an America and did something. I was supposed to study in Chicago. Didn't work out. My dad had different ideas. End up in Syria for two years. That's another story. It's not worth the time here. Um not much happened there. And then um I decided what a waste of time. Waste of my life. I just want to do something for me for once and I would like to study. So I pleaded with my parents. My dad was busy with lawsuits with against Iraq and my mom says just go go. So I took my Canadian documents and everything else and went to Canada. I went to Canada with an aim of of was registered and everything in university in in a small town called London, Ontario, Canada. My dad is an accountant there and I thought it'll be a easier springboard. I went um moved on and just got myself a full-time job and full-time school and they don't look back. Uh I don't need to bribe teachers to give me good grades like in Syria. I don't need to do anything. People don't care. People are honest. Everybody's working and just, you know, you earn what you work >> and I love that lifestyle. And I'm I've been always a huge fan of Canada. I wish Canada the best today. A little bit changed. But um I disconnected from all I didn't tell people where I'm from. People ask me what where you from, what's your, you know, citizenship, where you come from. I say Jordan. Sometime people say Georgia. I'm like, yeah, Georgia. Move on. And I wanted to be as Canadians anything, you know, there's, you know, so anyhow, but good times comes to uh interruption sometime in a good way. Um, four years into my beginning of school, four years, five years, eventually I bump into a teacher. At that time, I I I was ready to graduate, but I had a few courses that I had to carry to the next semester. My mom was calling me a lot. Hi, how are did you graduate yet? Every day you want to call me, ask me this question. And uh she goes, "Yeah, because all the guys that were in your classrooms all have like some real good jobs in in Dubai and they're earning like this and like that and they're doing this. This guy's married to two women and like just tell me stories like just >> and you don't have any." Bottom line is you got paid extra no tax and they wanted the American Canadian experience which I didn't have. But I wanted to stay in the country that I I liked to see the the the Indian and the Pakistani sitting next to each other and friends that you know the Japanese and Korean the Israeli and the Muslim or the Palestinian or whatever it is sitting next to each other you know and and in class and dealing. I loved Canada. I wanted a reason to justify my stay otherwise you know I don't want to work with like some job that doesn't pay well after all this work. So I thought to myself also maybe I could start an forprofit or something. Peace. Salam shalom. I used to think about it back in the day. Never never took off. Never started, never opened. But it was on my mind. I thought the internet is getting faster. This is 2003, 2004. Perhaps I could just take pictures or or little videos from from the subway, show people back in the Middle East how people get along. They don't care about each other's color and religion and whatever. I don't care what you are as long as you're a nice person to me. And I like that kind of a. So thought is on my mind. One day at university, I bump into this gentleman sitting in a small room in the library where the the phone booths are. And he has a keyp, very thin beard, and he looked Jewish. And I thought, you know what? Let's tell him about my idea. Let's hope he doesn't take my idea. >> So I went to him. Hi, how are you? Um, excuse me. Are you Jewish? And he looks and smiles. He goes, "No, I just like to dress this way." And I was like, "I don't know what to do." And I I heard a lot of things about Jews, but not that they're funny, you know? And this guy's like my grandfather's age. I have to like be respectful. I'm like, "Okay, so sorry. I apologize." He said, "Who's asking?" I told him my name. Like I told Mark, born and raised in, you know, secular Arab Palestinian family. All my life I knew that my grandmother's Jewish. I didn't hate Jews 100%, maybe 95%. He's a cow. Okay. Well, where does your parents live today? Where this? Where you from? What did they do? Where's your grandma today? Florida. Oh, yeah. Please have a seat. He tells me in no time. He gives me a piece of his apple. He offers it to me. And he's just talking to me like I'm the most interesting guy out there. I'm a student. I'm a young guy. Nobody shows interest in a student. I'm guy. You know, this guy was like attentive and offered me a piece of his apple. I thought to myself like I mean misconceptions about Jews just fell you know in few seconds here he was hospitable he was funny he was like you know generous sat down so he heard me talk and later on he goes so basically you're telling me that your father is Muslim told yeah but we say Muslim on the ID like as in non-practicing like yeah but that makes you a Muslim okay yeah on the ID you know want to tell you how much what we He wanted to reach to a point. He goes and by Jewish law it by Muslim law he said he wanted to establish his but by Muslim law you are a Muslim through your father told him yes what do you want and by Jewish law he says you're a Jew all right you know you don't go to middle eastern guy in the street say hey you're a Jew you don't do that yeah you're a Jew so I like how so I thought at the beginning he was um like a missionary I've seen those which is cool it's it's flattering Um I told him how so he goes well if you claim that your grandmother is Jewish that makes her and her siblings Jewish through matrinal descent and the blood bloodline of the mother which this is how we go by and makes you and your siblings Jewish. I'm imagining my siblings faces and trying to tell them stories now >> your exploding >> but it was a stretch of a story. I didn't understand if this guy's making it up or not. I had to go ask Mr. Google. So, um, and I also I don't like not to be right, you know, most times. So, I looked at him and this is where I took a break. I'm this guy has no clue. This guy must be a little too old here. Excuse me. But you forgot the point that my grandfather's Muslim also and everybody's, you know, and when he married, my grandma said, he debunked that by saying, "Oh, mine don't." But when they married, and this was not a truth. I was just making up. I was like, when they married, she converted to Islam. Now, nobody tells me convert and not convert. You should see pictures of the engagement party. Everybody's drinking something under the table, wearing, excuse me, mini skirts in the 70s, you know. Like, no, nobody's converted. Nothing. My grandfather wasn't. So, I like the answer. The answer was like a heart healer. You know, in the Middle East, if if uh if a girl marries somebody, if a Muslim girl marries somebody that is not of faith, she could face severe consequences like could be, you know, many things. I have an um a cousin that lives in Chicago. I was in Chicago lives in Chicago. She she was an airist. She married one of her colleagues who was not Muslim and she had to run away. Even talking about this person is a no no. So this man tells me when I told him to convert it to. By the way, I'm talking to this gentleman. He's like his eyes are just normal. He's smiling. I'm smiling the whole time. It's making me so stressed out. And he goes, "Well, it doesn't matter, Mark. By us, a Jew could convert 10 times and will remain a Jew." And that part I just I'm feeling right now. I just felt emotional. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, they love their own." When I was a kid, my father never let us go to mosque. As I mentioned, my grandfather when my parents out of town will ask me, "Do you want to go to mosque?" Sometimes, "Your big boy, you want to throw on the right Arab dress and go?" I'm like, "Yeah, absolutely. Let's go." I go on a walk with him because I want to chill with him. He's cool. >> Plus, I'm a big boy. Plus, they tell you every step is a mitzvah. So, I'm counting every step to the mosque. One time at a mosque, one time out of two or three times I've ever been to mosque with my grandfather. There was this the story of the prophet of Islam, Yseph was told to us, told to us in a malicious way. The guy got angry. He's like, "Look what the Jewish people are doing today to the Palestinians and even their own who who who support uh who are anti the their their whatever." He goes, "Just like Allah told us." And this is how the Muslim Brotherhood twists things. This is how Allah warned. No, this is why Allah warned us in the story of the dear prophet of Islam, Ysef. When he came to his brothers to declare to them that God that Allah sent him to for them to become Muslim, what did they do? And everybody start erupts and noise at the mosque. Yes, that's right. They tried to kill him and they dumped him down the well. But Allah saved him and this and did that. the evil Jewish brothers. So you take these things and you go on with your own life and you just imagine Jews are just a bunch of pirates, you know, you know, bikers and if one of them is off the, you know, they kill him, you know, mafia. So I grew up with that. Now I I'm I'm all I hear is mercy, mercy, mercy. We were told there's a lot of mercy there, but I don't I never heard mercy. And I'm hearing mercy from this guy that keeps smiling at me. I don't know if he his intention is just to convert me if this is his thing or not, but I just like this. >> So you hear this bombshell and you're like shaking on the inside. >> Oh my gosh. So fits in. [laughter] >> And so what do you do with it? >> So So I didn't run to to the shoe where he goes and put fillin on. By the way, out of respect, his name must be mentioned. Um the the gentleman's name, God bless his soul, is Dr. Yetszkak Block. And he is today he's considered nowadays uh one of the um one of the greatest philosophers of our time. Now his friends called him that philosopher from Harvard and he reached a certain uh type of uh level of success in his field. You're welcome to look him up Dr. Yhak or Isaac Block. >> There's a big point to be made here also which is that >> he connected with you because he shared his apple. >> He didn't judge you. He didn't say where's your he didn't say mind your own business. He didn't say walk away. He said, "Pull up a seat. Just pull up a seat. How would you like some apple and tell me about you? I'll tell you about me." And that's how And >> Rob, the the humanity from this guy lasted for a long time. Even later on in life, he became um a little like not a little he was fully uh had dementia and I saw him when he had dementia. I spent time with him and all and the the softest soul. He's so nice and so lovely like like a little child but just, you know, grew older and has gray hair. Um, >> so he opened this in front of you inside you and you started to visit his >> No, no, I'm going to run. Stop putting it filling on next day. No, absolutely not. I'm not into I'm not inclined to rel and that was an issue of mine beards. >> I struggled I stay away from beard. >> I struggled with the idea of doing things for a religion as a collective before that was like my uh my ego. >> I went home and I spoke with my mom. spoke my grandma and I created a whole thing at home. Many months later, something happened personally where I was wondering what to do. Woke up one day and was like, "Oh, it's Saturday. Let me go to the sh what this gentleman said and that was just like that like a coincidence and everything happened within like months of period a little bit procrastinator on the uh religious side at the beginning. So, uh, I went to Shul. I went to Shul and I thought to myself, I used to be like I used to work out a lot and puff and all and tan and I thought of myself, oh man, there's going to be like all Caucasian there like a bunch of people and they're going to see me look Middle Eastern. They just they're not going to like me around. I go in and uh they open the door, open the door, this guy, Indian guy and with an Indian accent, heavy Indian accent, his name is Shai, he still lives in London, Ontario. And he offers me a kip. You want a kip? I'm like, "Yeah, [laughter] sure." I put this keep on without a clip and I'm like afraid of walking. I go in and people were were singing Shamro now being exposed to Hebrew growing up as a teenager and knowing the days of the week and I know more because you hear similar days like similar words. Sorry. So when you say when I'm trying to look for the sedur that got stuck in my face when I walked in between me and the people of Israel or in Arabic Ben is oh between me and there's a sign forever and I just zoned out to the horizon somehow and I was remembering everything in my life my mom's best friend and my grandma and things and pictures and stories and don't go there she's teaching her children and all that kind of talk Then in in no time I I thought I prayed. I thought totally I thought this is happening. I was like the feeling and then uh people started walking around. I met Dr. Block. I got introduced to Rabbi wonderful rabbi over there. Um betila that's the name of the shul met a lot of people from all over the place. The Dr. Block introduced me to this lady. Look she looks like my my cousins you know like where are you from? She's like Yemen. I'm like yeah man you're a crazy lady. You converted to Judaism or something? like, "No, no, my family's been Jewish for thousands of years." I'm like, "Thousands of years? Who lives there? What is she talking about that talk? I don't know." So, I was like, "Okay, good luck with this uh stuff and be careful and talk to you later." I met somebody from Amsterdam, somebody from Poland, somebody from Iraq. The the the gentleman at the door, the Indian guy was Iraqi. I was like, "What's up with the accent, bro? Like, seriously, between us? Just lose the accent." Oh, I grew up in India. I'm like, "Okay, great." Okay. So, I met people from all over the place. I'm still sweating. I'm scared. Everybody's hospitable. Come, come, stay, you know. No, I got to go. I got to go stay. There's homeless homeless. I'll stay a little bit. Start talking. Rabbi comes. He wants to invite me for Shabbat. I don't know the guy. I'm not going to his house. He's had a big beard. That guy had like serious beard. And I was like, absolutely not. Then Dr. Black goes come I would love to have you over. I was with pleasure. I have questions for you. That's why I came here. I go to his house. He had more people in his house than the synagogue. And everybody wants to say hello. Where do you live by the way? I thought what is this odd thing that every person every Jew asks wants to know where I live? Somebody explained it goes well some Jews don't use cars or electricity money on the holiday. I'm thinking in my head maybe this is secret of Jewish riches. You know, you save on Shabbat and with compound interest could go far really. >> Anyway, um so I sat down, Dr. block, this long table, puts me at the head of the table, no stress. He goes back and forth to the kitchen door like this and just keeps coming in with food with his wife and helps his wife. And I was just thinking to myself, this man is like, you know, like he's proper. He's like professor and all. He's helping his wife. Who helps his wife here? I mean, you know, but whatever that every culture is different. So he comes in back and forth, brings in a big bottle of Smeirnoff vodka, which I was praying it that it is. It's like these guys drink early. It was barely noon time. So I met Abra and it was vodka. Took a couple shots. Next thing you know I'm hearing a story about Torah story I remember. But he said a story about Morai and Esther, this guy and some some crazy queen and things happened and Hammon and I connected fully to the story and it was just like building up building up building up and I just I I felt like this is what I grew up on like like going after Jews and they escaping or not escaping or making it or they winning or and at the end the story didn't finish and I was glad that it didn't finish. They don't know what the end of what they like and I did not want to feel uncomfortable. I thought Jews were just, you know, murdered and just wanted to just thank God for everything. I met some wonderful, highly educated people, doctors and professors and and I just wanted to leave a light guest. I came to leave. Dr. Black um insists to walk me to the door like a brother. Like now that I know your caliber of guests from your guests, I know who you are. Please stay with your guests. We'll talk some other time. I'll call you. I have a lot of questions. He's like, "No, I have a policy. I walk all my guests out the door." I love how he said it and he walks me out. Was drizzling drizzling rain. I started throwing emotions. I feel like I met you before. I think I think I've been here before. I think of that story. Oh my gosh, my heart. I kept saying, "I think I feel think." End up hugging the guy so much. Squeezed him. And I walked home. 45 minutes, 50 minutes. I walked home. It was raining. >> Wow. walked, passed out, woke up, turned the uh computer on and looked for the story of Esther and Morai Morai girls in Brooklyn. I don't know what at the end we found this thing called the book of Esther. I I'm almost certain it was not a Jewish uh source, but I don't know what I'm looking for. I read the whole thing like I never read. Are you at this point thinking that you're Jewish knowing that Jewish law considers you Jewish because of your grandmother and mother? Are you are you feeling I'm Jewish, I need to explore this? Or are you thinking that you're not Jewish? >> I wanted to ask questions to the rabbi. I was ask question. I don't know what the questions were, but I wanted to ask him things and I just want to adjust after speaking with my mom, my grandma, and fighting the world and up and down. Why didn't you tell me? Why is there conversation? Who's this? Who's who's Zei? Who's uh Rivka? Who's I'm asking all these questions about family members? And I'm just I guess my soul is hungry to know anything. And I wanted to go to a synagogue all along to be honest. I want to see what people do at a synagogue. Honestly, I thought it was like a flea market. They sell magazines. I'm not kidding. Like a like a garage sale or they hang out, you know, >> chill. This is what I see in Canada. How people hang out on a weekend. I thought this is it. I don't know. In the mosque, they go and just, you know, pray up and down and leave. I don't know. I wanted to go and I and I got enlightened. I like the songs. The song was nice that I read and that's all I knew. Then the story of Esther and that was just mind-blowing. At that point, I just felt a connection. Actually, I ordered that night. I ordered from eBay back in the day. I remember for $18 even the number I was looking at later. A small art school sitter, the art school, the brown one from back in the day. And uh I just wanted to pray, just wanted to learn, wanted to read what's in there, you know, that's emotional or that's good, this and things took a long time to from wanting to learn something or know something. I mean, I went to I went to Chakas a few times. He invited me. Um I put Fillain on a few times. Wasn't much fillain. Later on, I went to moved to Toronto. My dad came around these days and my dad came to Toronto and I told him and I told my dad, "You don't know." I thought he was going to be excited, you know, we actually are Jewish, you know, from my mom. They consider us Jewish. My dad start talking about other things. We argued a little bit and he said, you know, I was a refugee, you know that. I'm like, "Yep, we're on refugee." Great. He's like, "As a child, when I was 3 years old, when when got kicked out of our country, I'm like, "Dad, all my life you didn't say kicked out. You say we were fooled by the Jordanian army who said leave and take your key. Don't take your clothes and we're going to kick their, you know, and and you could go back and take what's yours and what's theirs ISIS style. Remember, Dad, he's like, "Yes, but it's different. It's complicated." I'm like, "Yes, I appreciate you sat down as a child in a refugee camp, but let me tell you, you told me they shaved you, you know, put DDT in your clothes." Yeah, but also there's something called Yemenite Jews that I just learned about. There's Moroccan Jews. There's Iraqi Jews. They had properties. They had stable lives. There was no warning, no heads up. These guys were killed and ripped off and sent off some of them like you know and end up intense also. But they moved on, dad moved on and built and do and I met some of them that don't even look at me in an angry way or just just just they tell it as a story. We agreed to disagree. We went out for steaks and beer and just moved on. Later on, my dad went to Vancouver, came back with an American goes, "Did you wanted to I was I was doing recruitment that time, like recruiting the um medical professionals from from Jordan, other Arab countries to work in the American army 2003, four to work in Iraq." Um, and he goes, "You like what you're doing? You could go to Toronto, learn this more, and just hire many, many people, like hundreds." I start calculating. I'm like, "Wow, my dad's good at exciting me like this." So, I was like, "Let's go." But I have student loans like, "Oh, don't worry. I I'll pay for it all." >> Great. Generosity appears. Later on, looking at this enrichment, my father wanted to get me away from my new friends. >> I moved just just coincidence. Just I'm living downtown and bump into another rabbi in Chinatown. Had a chat about fish and what's kosher fish. And next thing you know, he goes, "Come see the shul." Yes. Sh. No sh. I end up checking it out. It wasn't a bad shape. I felt a little bit bad. Came over on Shabbat. a lot of older people are not well and but some students I met some of these students one of them their mom told me about this thing called Holocaust I never heard of now there's no way you would hear about these things if it's not advertised okay don't tell me even if you live in Toronto you're some Italian guy minding your own business where you going to hear about the next thing you know I'm just like connected with the stories of Jewish people history of Jewish people >> some stories are from 25 3,000 years ago with Moran then later on most like pes story. I went to somewhere before in London entire before I left and all this stuff that I'm is thrown at me and this guy casually we used to go Friday night to be upset what went Friday night to dab and then we would go out for beers. Rabbis don't judge >> but um no that's I loved everything. I love that have freedom. You know, I got to a world where like the rabbi or the the the religious man works for the congregation, works for the people instead of like the other way around, you know, everybody's scared and worried. >> So, how'd you take it to the next level of of practicing and then I know ultimately >> two years? >> Oh, practicing. Yeah. I was not keeping chabas, but I was like diving as much as I can. I loved the idea of praying. I was doing a lot of time in English, you know. >> Why? Why was it determined that you needed to convert? >> So your mother and your grandmother were Jewish. Why? >> It was later after I moved up north a little bit. I moved to to the northern side, closer Jewish areas and there was this really nice rabbi that I connected with on a personal level. He said, "Mark, don't be uh don't be shocked and don't take it in a opposite way, which I took a little bit." He goes, "You're going to need to convert. Nobody's going to accept you." Which I understand. Some Arab guy showing out of nowhere. I was going to marry his daughter. I wouldn't marry my daughter to somebody like me. But he goes, "Look, in Haka, if you've been outside of Yiddish God for three generations, you'll need a little fix. You need a to know something." >> And you did it through the business in Israel. >> I started in Toronto. I was supposed to do the whole thing in Toronto. The test in Toronto was 56 pages. Okay. >> Wow. >> I'm talking about like everything that comes to your mind. Yeah. >> How many of our members could pass that? I studied for two years instead of eight months extended for two years in in in in uh in uh Israel. I went to Astori in Israel first for eight months just to learn a little for me just you know I'm 30 something years old. If I don't learn now I'm not going to get time in the future. I literally dunked in and let all go work everything but then I learned that I could do this. I went to Toronto went to Bin as I'm living in Israel and I was like I want to move forward with this. I want to move forward. You're in Israel. Every other woman is Jewish. I I I start wishing to get married to somebody that's Jewish. Even my mom goes, "It's okay. Go go go to the wall and ask Allah to hook you up with some nice girl. A guru, ask Allah to hook me up, mom." She's like, "Yeah, yeah, that's the one." I was praying to Allah at the wall all the time. Hashem hooked me up with the family. >> I want to come back to your story, but sorry for that. There's so no no there's so many parts of this that are so inspiring and optimistic and leads you feeling amazing and then there are parts of it that I say to myself there's so much pessimism here also because you are the outlier. You're the one who broke free of all this negativity and all this hatred. And yet when you described how you were brought up and obviously that's been magnified with the social media, with the internet, with television and indoctrinating generation after generation after generation, there's a part of me that's so pessimistic that says, "Okay, it's amazing that you're sitting here and you're the success story and you were able to look past hatred and find the rabbi who cut you a an apple, but what about millions and millions and millions of other people that are being indoctrinated every single day to hate us with misinformation?" >> Your classmates in Kuwait. I wonder about the classmates and classmates on Jordan also. I don't u discount that I'm lucky. I've been lucky like throughout the process. Um not everything was smooth really. I this whole conversion thing was a nightmare. Just want to say I could write a book about that one. Um a nightmare that I would love to see fixed and dealt with somehow in Israel because some people really nice good meaning people that come over and they leave their tails behind their leg. Um it's not easy to leave your family. It's not easy to because you're going to talk and to your family. that might be hurtful to some and not easy to financially commit to living in Israel and go there and all and at the end they tell you know we don't like you know you know >> um there was a lot of detail to this but I decided to go through it and when I decided something I do it >> um and I I did go on a trip to Poland in Israel at the beginning and that trip was before I studied at yeshiva and decided to to to do yeshiva or even conversion even detain the word conver conversion did not mean a thing to me. I didn't even want to go that route. What's conversion? Who is this? What's religion? You know, like I'm that kind of guy. Went to Poland. I learned that everything we grew up to do was done already to the Jews in even systematically German style. Okay. And worse. And I even experienced anti-semitism there with a bunch of students from from America and Canada like like people doing stuff shooting with a gun next to Ashitz or barbecuing and like some some excuse me some redneck guy from from Germany. Uh I mean Poland I come to Israel I thought Israel was apthe I literally thought that I I didn't even think and discuss that and stare at the wall and philosophically think about it but I completely was convinced and I saw justification in my mind. I mean thank God I'm not I'm not a dictator anywhere. But anyhow I go there they take us to old city and everybody looks the same for God's sakes. I don't know who's Muslim who's Arabic who's Christian. Like seriously they all look the same. And then I see people just like they're not staring at each other saying, "I'm gonna get you because you're different." People are just walking. This guy's with his kids going to pray. This guy's coming back from prayer. This guy's selling you stuff overpriced things in the old city. But everybody's living, trying to live, which is cool. I like trying to live. Tourists, uh, you know, Christians, priests. I was just just mesmerized looking at everybody. I fell in love with that country quickly and I we kept touring. This is through esoter. We kept touring touring for three weeks. I went all over the place all over, you know, they take care of. It was the same thing every day. You feel the mental expansion every you feel your brain is like pulsating with with things and knowledge. I fell in love and inside my heart I make I made a decision plus promises to myself you know that I'm going to do my best to come back or do something with here >> and within a year I was back sitting down on the benches in the base mid in as studying I loved every moment of that my Arabic helped me with my Aramaic yes I was you know but it was easier for me to absorb you know so it's like a movie the rabbi's talking about and I was intrigued by the back and forth and I wished my father. My father's a very nice, smart guy also. Um, I wanted my dad to be with me. My dad would enjoy Gomorrah. Like, for sure Baba Matsia. Oh, that's my dad's name. My dad's like one of these genius engineers. So, I started learning. Then I moved on. I thought this was too slow. Then I went to the base med. And I found was studying. I think he's in Florida. I think he's here. Uh, Lazarus. If you're listening, Rob Lazarus. >> Shalom. And he he wanted to learn and he wanted somebody and wanted to go to Dubai at the time for various things in my mind and I wanted to sh for me or for whoever community out there. So I wanted to learn properly really from the bottom of my heart. I needed to learn I needed to. So I sat down learned was amazing. I taught afterwards somebody else was amazing a test. Then uh there was other connected things to that I liked like specifically like just things of that sort. Within these days, the the the uh Gil Eisenbach, the Mashiah came over and was stressed out saying, "Oh my gosh, did you hear the news?" No. Uh the Muslim Brotherhood took over Egypt. And the first order of business, they had one female um um minister, Minister of Agriculture. First order of business was she's going to boycott agriculture products to Israel. >> Israel. This story is incredible. The truth is that we could spend hours and hours on it. So take us further. Take us to the next step. So you're in the yeshiva. You're learning. you're growing. This rabbi who shared an apple, opened your eyes, touched a Jewish soul. You said that you even felt something now as you're recalling the way he said to you that a Jew can convert no matter how many times a Jew is always a Jew is always a Jew and the pint the Jew inside you even though you did convert. >> Do you believe that? >> Oh, I went through years of conversion. >> And was the conversion just technicality? Do you believe you're still you're always a Jew? >> Well, yeah, but like you know like the laws are the laws, you know. I'm not here to invent the laws. I'm going to, you know, if I'm going to agree to a set of laws, I would agree to all of them. I'm not going to pick and choose. >> Right? >> So, uh, one more thing that he said that I liked a lot >> like to to repeat it cuz he's a special guy, Dr. Soak. When I was leaving his home, I was throwing feelings and feelings. He gave me the same relaxed look, the same eye, you know, and a smile. He goes, "I'm not surprised you feel this way. Every Jew is born with a little Torah and a little manor in his heart, >> and all it takes for another Jew." And he goes like this to me for another Jew to bump into him and light up his manura. I'm like why would you learn this stuff man? >> Anyhow >> but uh every word is good especially from those who are perceived to be uh observant or religent. People are watching. People watch I'm talking about only non-Jews. Jews are watching. There's a lot of young people that are just the parents. They didn't teach anything and and they they look to Judaism. I don't need to teach you right now to give you a lesson about this. But I see this all the time. A lot of kids that come to yeshiva ask me can we come over to your house of Shabbs absolutely because they don't want to be at a you know very dire and they ask me questions ask my wife questions also she's got a greater story >> so >> you know we have a basin for conversion uh here locally >> and since October 7th we've been busier than ever >> really very shockingly people want to be Jewish you'd think they'd be running the other direction >> yeah [clears throat] I'm not surprised >> and we you know we were involved and I'm not sharing it violating confidence she shares it very widely wild widely but um somebody who's a nanny in Jewish homes and who was very inspired by that became a Jew course and we just had a meeting last week and there's somebody else who you know how did your journey begin? She said, you know, I used to be a nanny in a Jewish home and what I saw really drew me and attracted me. This is now the second and we've had many. And that's exactly the point. >> I was in a I was a guest to Jewish homes and one of them is a common friend of ours. I've been spend time at his home and Shabbat and here and I see the interaction and the level of just you know godliness and conversation and you know obviously humans are humans. It's just uh people choose a certain way of dealing with things and Shabbat and what we're instructed to say and do how to do things. Just just >> how we behave will either draw people closer or will push them away. >> You know, I read an article after that and I and I said and I I think about it a lot is you know if somebody were in our home living in our home with what they saw and experienced would that make them more likely or less likely to want to be Jewish? >> Well, it makes you make a decision. Okay, this is what I want to do or this is not what I want to do. >> Yeah. So take us back to Asia to Torah >> and definitely the you know I didn't plan Asia Torah that um um was I arrived in Asia to 2010 was I had no idea who was in who was the star know who who you know I don't know a thing um >> para to be in the journey >> it was it was really nice and I went to a very nice rabbis home like for on Shabas after the introductory dinner at a there was not much happening at first night it just blew my mind I'm looking at him and you have the dome of the rock behind him. I've seen over the rocks a lot of pictures, you know, people's home that hated Israel and hated Jews. Hate is part of their life. And now I'm sitting down looking at this guy and trying to trying to keep focus in this huge dome. Just blew my mind. The probably my best chabas ever >> at that time. 2010 I arrived to a few months later um early maybe 2011, the Muslim Brotherhood took over Egypt. Ra Gillan Zubah comes over and says we're gonna have an issue. They boycotted us from agricultural products. They had one female agricultural minister and she decided to boycott Israel. There's nothing more important. You know, when they tell you the second day, the first day of their business when they taken office like some people recently here, um they tell intention. I didn't know what's the big deal. He said, "We're going to live like the days of the Holocaust now where we're going to have to share a lul love amongst us cuz 650,000 Lulovs come from Sinai." That's a big number. But not on my uh time and watch that people would have any experiences that would remind me of what I've seen when I was there when they were the best tour guide in the world to to Poland. And I just literally if if you know just the guy ripped emotions out of like me just and I decided I want to do something. I went to my dorm. I googled what lul love means frond. I looked for jordan palm frond and I found jordan palm.com. It's probably still online. 050 Abu Brahim. You'll see on the website if it's still there. And I called this guy. Hi, what's up? What's going on? Tell him I want to buy you some France. >> What language are you speaking? >> Arabic. I got fluent Arabic. Only Arabic. >> Right. >> By France. Like France. Did you want to buy actual trees to France? Like France? We cut them. We feed them to the sheep. I'm like even better >> and you're like you have no idea what I'm about to pay you for this. >> We're going to discuss and I was just learning Mr. Abu how to do a agreement between to work on shabas fury and non shabas. I was like really engrossed in that can't wait to meet this man and just do a an agreement and how my father teaches me how to deal with labor over there. So I went there given a very small deposit to buy some equipment and we talked about it. This man was important. He has access. He's a supervisor. sells trees, small trees, but he's a supervisor to all the farms in the Jordan Valley. He has access not just to the farm. He has access to the workers. So anyways, it was an amazing uh success. I brought it over. I had like um bags of and I'm tell I'm going to tell this whoever wants to copy look for to this business. It's a good business to do. We end up going finding a flower importer and I bought these uh cartons for them that have holes for the fumigation. Anyway, I put some in my business address, told everybody free for all was fun. Then I spoke with a common friend of ours a year after we still had the same issue. Then I went and I told him I I think I could uh do something in the United Arab Emirates and he had contacts, his contacts, the guy chickened out. He was like, I don't want to deal. So I had to find contacts. found within a few days I found a beautiful like their five brothers that inherited this beautiful uh huge palm tree farm. So I went to convince them and they had a good deal. Same negotiation, same thing, same deposit and had access to all of the workers 34,000. >> Wow. >> Yeah. From Israel and to New Jersey and New York. >> That was a precursor to the Abraham Accords bringing Lulovs from the United Arab Emirates to Israel. This is where I decided I wanted to learn because because of the the interaction was a success and I felt good about this and I love telling this to people when I speak every time I talk and tell young people like you know just things are you know we're not born ready there's no ready moment just when Hashem told okay just take people and just do things didn't want to take the job so I can't even talk I can't be a leader I don't want this do I look like somebody >> but Hashem said go you go and you stop moving your legs and you start thinking and you start creating. This is in anything especially when it's, you know, times for you to stand up for Jewish people. Everybody could do a job. You are already equipped. You don't know that you are. Um, >> they're in yeshiva. >> In yeshiva decide, do you want to stay and live in Israel? >> Well, I started getting busy and doing things. I did some other stuff and just uh took other government members from a neighboring country to to another fish farming symposium on behalf of Israeli companies and this and that. things started and Hashem, you know, made me m in Israel and I met this one lady along along the way at this one event just before I flew to to Norway for for another business deal. And um I heard that her family first of all somebody told me, "Oh, this lady studied in Norway in her business." I'm like, "Business? Good. Norway? Good." Then I'm listening what she's talking about. She's talking about her family the whole time. Family father fishing with my father. Great. Somehow I end up you know exchanging words and I told her I'm speaking over Shabas. I'm flying M Shabas to nowhere. This what I do and uh I'm speaking over Shabas at this uh if you know Bonnie and Alan Cohen I love them in Israel. They have only Shabas all the time. So I'm speaking there if you want to come join for for after Shabas after your meal. And she came she heard my story >> and next thing you know I go abroad and come back and her dad wants to meet me. Your dad wants to meet me. So we went and sat down. We talked. we connected and uh we I I I started a relationship with the family and uh of course I expressed my desire and my my intent and that made me even stronger wanted to finish my what I'm doing. So uh I did my conversion at Raisim Cares is based in in let me tell you one thing that the questions I was that was I was asked are not the average questions you are asked in an average B somewhere >> right >> and um it was great moved on and just um again as I wanted to mention later I acknowledge that there has been mazal my way I've been lucky there are things that have worked in a certain way but is a part of my life I do not Don't sit still. I have to try. >> I have a million and one question for you. And your wife, tell us about your wife. >> My wife uh should we call her? >> She uh she's she's from Finland originally. My wife is Finnish. Um from a minority that Swedish speakers. Her father was a priest, a Lutheran priest. He was teaching people stuff and knowing that he's teaching sheer lies. So he he goes he tells me sometimes like we're not even teaching them stuff like JC says or whatever there's not in the in the books or the old testament new testament no we're teaching a manual by this guy Martin Luther the whole thing is about that when he protested to this he was faced with like strong you know put in his place so he didn't like that and they started to look into the old testament and taking on uh different holidays there are a lot of people apparently like this in Finland they do shabbat of their own and they do >> like no and uh he reached at a certain point he said that's it I can't do this anymore I can't do this job I'm doing a desire he let it be he did a full conversion him and his whole family in Finland he went to Israel he was told hey the conversion is not so 100% with another rabbi will one rabbi anyways that is there so he had to do a full conversion again in Israel and uh [cough] moved on that's the whole family they've been there for almost 30 years um and Uh I was lucky. I was found myself under hoopa our common friend Ela was there and uh if you're watching Ela thank you that made my life made my made my >> is the best >> she was going in circles around me broke class everybody in my life was there people that I met in Dubai guy Lebanese guy my bel partners Eli everybody my student friends the guys who were serious the guy is not serious but has a good heart everybody was there we danced like you know in your salam and moved on. Next thing you know, you go to hospital and they give you a kid and a hospital another kid. [laughter] The first one who I wanted to name I took the name Morai after after the story like was an amazing story. I wanted to be a Morai. So I was looking for an Esther in a way but I found Linda Linda Leia and decided to name my daughter Esther Atara Esther >> and Hashem blessed me with another uh wonderful girl and uh we named her after somebody also in Kuwait that was also a Jewish friend of my mom and my grandma. Her name was Rivka. I named my other daughter Amalia Rivka. >> Now >> how does your has your family accepted this process? are they? >> So, we went through a lot of stages. There was like this feel of uh disbelief, but leave him alone. Maybe he's gone crazy, he'll come back and all this. But then, um you know, um I made some mistakes along the way like uh sometimes would be political uh events and I would comment, I would say something instead of keeping my mouth shut. Um which caused me some friction with certain family members. I tried to fix this sometimes and come back to it all. Let's talk about throughout different conflicts. Um I lost let's say contacts with my siblings. My sister was coming to my wedding. Her only concern is if the religious people are going to tell me not to dress this way or that way. So which I told her nobody cares. You have your freedom. But it was 2014 just in a few days. Haka um uh was it when was it in in in a beginning of a few days we had a war >> she didn't want to come because of the war. was the the only person that wanted to come. The rest don't speak to me right now. Unfortunately, I speak with my mom only. Um my relationship is strong. I go back and forth dealing with my father. My father is strongly opposing to Israel and being Israel. I tell him I think about him all the time. I walk home from from the office every day almost to my home. It's a 10-minute 15-minute walk. And I think my father all the time. My dad is a builder. And I look at buildings and old and you know new and how is it standing only my father could tell me like what kind of foundation was here or here how is this built and appreciate the little things. I wish he was there. I wish the whole thing was you know a bad dream about not being in touch with the parents. I dream one dream that I have I have a lot of dreams but this one dream is like the dream to have a big Shabbat table and have my family sit with me. My I have my family which helps but like >> but your parents >> biologically. >> So your mom you're in touch with >> no mom I'm in touch with >> Has your mom um been in touch with her own Jewishness through you? >> No, she doesn't care. My mom is own world and >> she doesn't see herself as Jewish and her mother. >> No, she's actually she became uh into Islam and she she went she dunked into she went through a period where she was like and I think that contributed even my parents divorced. Now she's still in that world but not to not black just >> she went religious. And your grandmother's still alive? >> My grandma's still alive. Yeah. Yeah. She goes between Florida and here. She lives not too far. >> And how does she feel about this? She's after all the reason you're Jewish. She's the Jewish. >> My grandma made a couple comments before like, "Oh, here comes the Jew. This that." But my grandma says, "Our father is Muslim. We go by the father." This this is something that she mentioned, you know, strongly. >> But uh yeah, I have nothing against anyone. I just want communication. Sometimes it'll be nice to have my children involved. >> My mom is cool with that department. >> Story is not over yet. Okay, here's my question. >> Here's my question. So, as you mentioned, I went to with our mutual friends went to Dubai and Abu Dhabi and I came back from the UAE and I've been, you know, on this big high that though they represent unfortunately a very small minority of coexistence, mutual respect. Um, but we should celebrate and elevate what they're doing if we wanted to impact others. So, some cynical people come and say, you know, Rama, you were fooled. They pulled the wool over your eyes. This is all part of the plan. You've got a country like they all coordinated it. Let's designate one country that will seem moderate. We'll get them in and then we'll get them that way. >> This is what mom tells me when I tell about Israel and Jewish people. Okay. She like, "Yeah, they're all pretending to be nice to you." Like, "Yeah, okay." >> UA is legit. They're from >> I was just in UA a few weeks ago. We spent Pes not pes sorry Kaneka there with my family, my kids, my wife. >> We ordered kosher sometime we order from Dubai, sometimes from Abu Dhabi. >> Um had two Shabas there. Shab says and we lit candles our first candles with the community. Um from my humble of course people that you met probably tell more from my humble understanding for this country that I frequent and adore and have a lot of friends with deep friendships with um they're they're heavily invested in in fighting extremism speaking up and and boycotting like the terrorist organizations like really bad organization where there's terror you know with weapons or terror with words. And so they're heavily invested to a degree of no going back. There's no pretend in Saudi in in the United Arab legit. >> They want they want to live and survive. They saw how Hashem blessed them >> and they want to survive. They welcome everybody to come over and they have a very strong anti-d discrimination law, >> right? If somebody tells somebody you stupid this and that from whatever religion he is or this color or whatever you even even if you're local if you're Indian if if you're Chinese they don't take it easily. >> Is there any hope for the other you know 100 million who are indoctrinated to hate us. >> So um I know about a lot of things in life but I don't I don't I make assumption that I know of the politics and the direction. I've been to Saudi recently. I'm supposed to go again soon. Saudi Arabia have transformed big time. You see it and you know these guys want to build their country. Of course the the the crown prince is you know adamant on this and he said it and all um culturally it's a $40 million company 40 million person uh country and uh they want to survive also and they want to stay away from extremism. Um I'm I'm not sure exactly how to describe their progress. I mean, I I I have have pictures with me with Karen Torah in Saudi Arabia of dedication to to the king, but uh can I go on the street to the keep I took a friend of mine, Rabbi actually from Miami. I took him to with me to Saudi Arabia. We met there together. He worked keep a few times >> and you know we managed >> but uh they have to be open about like you have to be open and and straight in front of their people about houses of worship protection create some sort of a law that they will add to the constitution about discrimination but it's a difficult different type of uh Arabs um they're open-minded people are educated and all but you know it's a big country again but people from United Arab Emirates historically they've met and interacted with people from different cultures and backgrounds through trade. People trade come from China, India, different countries and they land in these ports. They not Arabs from there they go by. So they've seen the Christian, the Hindu they they've seen. >> Do you have Muslim Arab friends in your in Israel you speak that language you have some commonality of a background? >> I try not to speak language because I don't want people to know my story because somebody speaks somebody and it could affect, you know, the security of my family. So um but sometimes I throw certain words like as if I speak a little Arabic to some of the people that work for example in my office building just to to take away the friction and I see who's good who's uncomfortable even from the Arab side those who never interacted with Jews I could see that there's a young guy >> uh that people have concerns over him they think he's he's just nervous probably never met a Jew even though he lives in East Jerusalem >> but you soften it by say you know good morning good afternoon in Arabic is a nice word the articia it's like you know same thing so uh these things at the shop I speak with people in Arabic human beings you know this guy wants to work more to do help this buy his daughter this >> comes it all comes back to sharing the apple >> we're all sharing life and food and >> dreams like everybody wants to you know what else is there there's no secrets and no dark world and uh I I used to think Jews are are not human carrying pitchforks and want to want to really kill just Muslims. That's that's their thing. They were brought in, you know, and we have to save Earth from them and all this stuff. And >> what do you recommend? I know we have to wind down. Thank you so much for your time. The story is amazing. Your insights are amazing. So, here we are in Bocar Raton and there's a local mosque and imam and we have I have absolutely nothing to do with them and I don't know are they UAE Muslims? Are they kamas? Those are two extremes I'm giving obviously. You know, so you think we should be, you know, you say so many people that you grew up with hated Jews because they never met Jews. They didn't really know Jews. And it's hard. It's easy to vilify people you don't know. When you come to know them, it's a lot harder. Is this something we should be invested in? Reaching out, creating connection, relationships, exposing people to us and us to them or sort of, you know, right now. We need some boundaries, some safe spaces, some be careful what you're doing. >> Of course, definitely all the way. You never know who's who. But I wouldn't I wouldn't think they're they're Gulf Arabs coming over to live here because have other guys from the Arabian Gulf have other things to do and live in their countries. They're inclined to different kinds of businesses than run on a mosque. um um around 2014 or 11 or 13 some one of these years like the the early times um I don't want to say the based on a president uh there was an approach by certain supposedly an organization defends Jewish rights to in introduce Schulles here in Chicago in in in Florida with members of this Muslim organization that represents all Muslims in America. Now, that organization is not closer in any way possible like anyway. As a matter of fact, I don't know if I should say their name or not. >> Yeah. It was recently uh labeled a uh >> care. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. They're Muslim Brotherhood. And I told this gentleman >> from this organization that's supposed to protect whatever. And just I was put down as a as an extremist. And what's the extremist? >> I and I don't know. >> You were right. and they make made a lot of introductions. I even spoke with some of the rabbis that that that were introduced and they told me, "Okay, there was this one guy, this one guy." And I and I look them up online. I'm like, "These guys are not cool." >> So So for some reason they're strong here in Florida and right now things I don't know better. I think, you know, there are professionals that know these things, >> but uh I don't like I have family here that are uh into that also. They support that financially. Yeah, >> these guys that that that ruin um a good time at university by protesting and doing things. >> Wow, it must be so complicated for you to navigate sort of your multiple identities even though this is your real now authentic identity. But a person can't deny their past and their family and it's complicated. >> Well, um sometimes your family, you know, you move on. I'm a man. I have my own family and right now and I'm very happy with them. They like me so fine. >> But uh these guys I don't consider my family out of respect to my mom. I don't interfere. >> Wow. Even public that person donates big time. >> Wow. >> Morai Mark, you're unbelievable. Your story is unbelievable. Your insights are unbelievable. >> We all have to work to advance >> every day. Advance ourselves and advance interests of our community every day. >> All from an apple. >> Thank you. Thank you for going behind the bea with us. Thank you for all you do. You should have peace and safety and you appreciate it. >> We'll spend a lot of time there together. >> Thank you. >> Welcome to be in touch with you. >> Thank you. >> South if you're listening. >> We will. >> Thank you for listening to behind the bea. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. We'll see you next week for another peak behind the beam.