Episode 3: Trauma - Out of the Shadows (A Jewish Approach to Mental Health)

there are problems that affect so many and yet so few talk about them which is why Rabbi efim Goldberg and MOSI aknes bring you out of the Shadows a Jewish approach to mental health Rabbi Goldberg and mosha speak to leaders in the field and discuss contemporary challenges to help us better understand mental health and those who are struggling with it this month's topic trauma on this episode we are joined by Dr AA Perlman Clinical Director at Oda Wellness Institute and professor at the wz Wilder Graduate School of Social Work and by zeli an individual who bravely shares her experiences with trauma we hope you find this episode meaningful and helpful and be sure to check out the show notes for further resources next month we will focus on OCD if you have any thoughts ideas or suggestions for guests please reach out to us at info@ outoftheshadows podcast.com welcome to out ofthe Shadows episode three mosha great to be together again as we continue this journey of trying to remove the stigma and the Shanda to encourage those with working towards mental health to come out of the Shadows to uh to remove the negativity around it and and to make people realize that all of us are struggling with something and to normalize these issues it's always great to be together mosha yes same here it's uh it's really good to be back and the feedback continues to pour in regarding the normalization of real complex mental health issues uh we get emails and calls all the time regarding whether it's a comment on the the actual show or in general the fact that we're doing this type of of you know podcast is so empowering and it sheds real real bright light on a a really challenging issue uh that we're facing on a macro level across the board within our community absolutely and to know just just how big and Broad it is we get feedback after each episode so far not only thank you for addressing and validating this topic here are other topics you really need to cover so there's so much to talk about and tonight we're going to talk about trauma which is a significant issue because there are people who know they went through a trauma there are people who've either suppressed the trauma there are people who haven't even defined what they experienced as a trauma but it's lingering in the background and animating so much of their Liv so mosha get us started by telling us what is trauma how do you define trauma people misuse that word trauma and they label some insignificant things as traumatic arrive PTSD from the last time the flight was delayed is that is that trauma what is trauma that's a great question and obviously trauma is a broad topic um you know the way I conceptualize trauma is really to differentiate between trauma in the sense of an intense experience whether it's combat or a car accident it's isolated to one event and that can be life-changing for many people um they have nightmares and there is physiological reaction to it um they're replaying that episode over and over and that's traumatic and it does require some real comprehensive work in order to navigate uh the reactions uh and then there's something a little bit more um subtle I would call it it's more covert uh it's uh we we the therapy in the Therapeutic Community we coin it relational trauma or complex trauma and that is something that is a little more subtle and really exists and develops over a sustained long period of time um you know something as it talks to the core of a person's attachment um as an example um you know every parents are are are well-intentioned and good minded and if a person comes home and they're on their cell phone um and their child uh is is eeking and and and and wanting Desiring their attention and they're disconnected uh because they're preoccupied by their cell phone um it's something that is again nothing intense um or nothing that is obviously aggressive or or malicious however a child starts to internalize hey how come daddy is not connecting to me why is my spouse um not not focused on on my needs and that's something that we call we referred to as relational trauma and and a person starts to develop a a mindset that they're they're not worth it they at their core self they they don't have the value um they don't bring something to the table metaphorically that is deservant of you know of attention and focus uh abandonment is another expression of trauma obviously sexual abuse um is an expression of trauma um those are those are things that we refer to as complex trauma um and obviously there's a huge correlation between these types of trauma and addiction uh because it affects a person's equilibrium it affects their ability to modulate emotions um they don't trust their core self um they start to hide and that shame starts to develop a block um from from their ability to interact with the world and from my St I could tell you as as a rabbi was there supporting people who are going through conflict whether it's um helping never independently always referring to a to a therapist but complementing it with support for shom bias issues marital issues challenges with children challenges with with Failure to Launch or or struggle with ambition at work and often underlying it is there's some trauma that that's not been addressed that's not been unpacked that's not been worked out and and you know only recently dealing with somebody who had lost a parent at a very young age and never really grieved or processed or understood that and embedded itself in such a way that now there was a struggle with relationships and forging meaningful relationships and that's why this topic tonight is really really important for people to have awareness within themselves to know that there is ability to work on it and to recover from it and to lead a very healthy and a very happy life as long as it's something that there's no shame around that we're willing to to be able to address it and support one another with it and tonight and you know we're super excited to bring on Dr Kea Perman as a professional who I have I have deep respect I know him probably close to 20 years at this point we've worked together uh he's phenomenal has so much Rich content cont to share and really has a a really a an eye-opening macro level view of individuals in our community who have experienced real traumatic events whether it's individual isolated trauma or this complex relational trauma that we've discussed so thank you for joining us and together we can help bring this issue out of the Shadows here we [Music] go Dr Perman thank you so much for joining us and uh engaging Us in this conversation at the Shadows tackling what is a topic that's probably much broader and more pervasive than we even recognize but for the people who struggle with it they're well aware and that's the topic of trauma so I want to come out of the gate to ask you how would you define trauma how would you define PTSD you know we use these words very Loosely and and in some way therefore they lose their meaning or it's even insensitive to the people really struggling but you know someone will say I have such PTSD from the last time I went to Trader Joe's and they were out of my favorite potato chips I have PTSD from the last time uh whatever I was disappointed by such and such so what is trauma what is PTSD how would you define it what qualifies as and Rises to that definition yeah I so first of all thank you for having me it's a great honor and so deeply appreciate what both of you do for cherol and uh for having me it's it's just wonderful to be here um I think there are certain ideas that were new many many years ago and at the time they were revolutionary and then over time we sort of settle into the con concept um and I think that when we're having this conversation right now I think it's fair to say that we've settled into the trauma idea and I think what often happens once you settle into something is that it sort of becomes a part of our everyday vernacular our everyday understanding of things um and we sort of lose the potency of what it is I remember I had a student in grad school I was teaching an addiction course and they started talking about all these different types of addictions like cigarettes and other things that were like minor they're problematic but minor relative to let's say heroin or things are more significant and I remember sharing at the time that we don't want to take away from the honor the respect the suffering that people have had to sort of diminish and call everybody an addict with every behavior and I think it's the same with trauma um at this point we're kind of like throwing the term out you know very Loosely um as you described um where if it's about a game or something else we're just throwing out the term and I think we need to understand that first and for most trauma for someone who's struggling with it and living with it it's more than just an event and we'll get to PTSD in a second it is an experience that shapes the essence of a person so when we talk about trauma the broad definition of it is that when you have an experience in your life that you're not yet ready to experience or to integrate into your life so you're sort of flooded by something that your body your mind your spirit can't really integrate and as a result of that it kind of spills over um and what It ultimately does the effect of that is it shapes the way that you see the world it shapes your lenses a person who puts on glasses in the morning they usually see clearer but a person who's wearing glasses that are sort of shaped by trauma they see the world through a very distorted set of lenses um and the world that's why often relationships are impacted um especially interpersonal ones and deeper ones more connected ones work is often uh impacted by it because the way that they see themselves the way they see their own reflection the way they interact with others is profoundly shifted um and changed as a result of what they went through primarily because they couldn't integrate and make sense of the experience as they were having it um PTSD is slightly different if you don't mind or Mor you want to jump in with something yeah no first of all it's great to see you again um it's been a long time uh just as far as you know what you're expressing the the the lens in which uh somebody who experienced trauma views the world is that uh emotional is that psychological is that phys physical can you just elaborate a little bit around the different I guess consequences or long-term effects of those lenses yeah well it's it really touches upon every area that you're describing from a physiological level we could look at brain scans of people who have not experienced trauma and what that looks like and how they process information versus people who've been through something that's been intense and extreme and and overloading the way we're describing it now um so on the brain itself it transforms its structure and it it certainly transforms the way that we process things the way that we process information ideas um for example if I have a conversation with with you a wonderful person we've had many conversations before I it's safe enough for me to say I know how you're going to experience what I'm saying to you but if I'm speaking with someone who's experience something that has overloaded their system Al together I'm not quite sure how they're going to internalize that reaction um or what I'm saying to them I could tell someone uh you know ask someone a basic question of how is your day I have a client a particular client that I've been working with for around uh close to two years now and every time I meet with this this this person who suffered a great deal of trauma in their lives I asked them how are you and they kind of smile at that and they say like we're gonna do this again like every single week we're gonna have that same conversation and what it demonstrates to me is that they don't hear how are you this same way other people that we could generally predict um hear that statement it means something different to them um it could be based on the person and what their experience has been it could be a defensive posture it could be one where they feel like they're being attacked or misunderstood or you're violating their space whatever that might be so we kind of start from the brain and it makes its way virtually through every other system that we have um our emotions our body you know there's a lot of work we maybe we'll get get into it one of the more common treatment modalities today is sematic sematic experiencing there are some other names for it as well but it kind of speaks to the trauma that gets absorbed into one's body that doesn't even have a language it is simply absorbed into one's Essence and we need to find a way to release it so it it no longer is dominating that person's body so we're talking about back back to the basic about just just the definition of trauma right so someone who survives a massive car accident or overcomes a debilitating illness or those are traumatic events somebody who was abused God forbid that that that's trauma but somebody who I don't know got fired from their job somebody who had dated long term and had hopes for that relationship and they broke up they got dumped is that trauma H how do we Define trauma right somebody who twisted their ankle and and couldn't run the marathon they'd been training for is that trauma how how do we just a basic definition of trauma well the problem is and this is why we're kind of having a hard time answering this question is that the term is so broadly used at this moment that we don't have the classic definition and that's why I would like to focus primarily on what I would what we would call severe trauma SE trauma that is pervasive that is introduced to a person at a time where they can't integrated I put it sexual abuse into that discussion when you're experiencing Sensations in your body that you can't make sense of you can't understand it you can't rationalize what's happening to you that to me is uh the true definition of trauma a child who goes through um a very messy divorce where at that point in their life when it took place they can't make sense of relationships they can't make sense of um what a marriage is like altogether let alone at falling apart everything else that you're referring to really makes its way into the other category that we didn't touch upon yet which is more PTSD like a single isolated traumatic event that at times could take real form in a person's being um and really could cause a great deal of chaos but what we're speaking about today or I hope to speak about today is a more pervasive form of trauma that is that everybody would agree that this meets the definition of an experience that someone had that dramatically shaped the way that they experience and perceive the world so sorry so the last little last follow up on that before we then pivot to to what we want to be talking about is would you ever say or would you recommend to parents to ever say if a child's using the word trauma to describe an event which we don't think Rises to that level right like I studied really hard and it turns out I failed the test it's trauma I underwent the tra would we say you know my dear child that was hard for you and I'm here for you and let's talk about it and I know it was difficult but it wasn't traum and let's not use that word or if a person describes their own experience should we not deny them using that word right I I think it's complicated to correct people's way of relating to a concept I'm not sure we need to do that but I think there's there's possibly way the essence of what you're saying like the foundational idea you want to build people's resilience one of the things maybe we get into this one of the things that we're seeing now because it's so loosely used the term is that it's almost taking away people's resilience as opposed to contributing to it so I think that's the point that you're touching upon that when someone has a hard day um we don't want to put it in that category of something terrible happened to me and I don't have the ability to withstand it or fight it and I think there's a way of correcting that without going at the actual word you know we could talk about yeah you had a really hard day um but tomorrow's another day you know just to give them empowerment correct we we've spoken about you know in previous episodes we've talked a little bit about the difference between mental health and mental illness and while somebody can experience a challenging day at school or even an intense event it doesn't necessarily give them the license so to speak to Define themselves as a trauma Survivor um because it does it's a misde and it also it allows them to to not build a certain skill set of perseverance and and and work ethic to process challenges that come throughout life yeah yeah absolutely so going back to the people who've actually suffered trauma just a quick vignette for a second I just finished teaching a Class A Course on trauma on grad school I'm I teach there in in word swaller through sarne fabulous program and we had they had to write a final paper on trauma and everyone was asking this question how do we Define it what is it about and I said listen if you could give me a good argument that someone who has a paper cut that's going to truly impact their life in a meaningful way then give it your best shot let's let's go in that direction too who's who's who am I or who is anyone to say that we should take away someone's you know personal experiences and I had a student who took me up on it and she wrote this wonderful paper on the trauma of a paper cut um and it was it was fabulous and she she provided a great argument for it obviously she connected it to many other things um but I but I think it speaks to this idea that the term is just so widely used and we need to find a way to to truly when you sit with people who've suffered a great deal throughout their lives and you see people whose lives have been changed as a result of their experiences and then you listen to others who are describing challenging events but events that we all go through and they're using the same term like there's a part of me that like feels like when I the other people are on my mind and I'm thinking about their shared experience there's a part of me that feels like that it doesn't feel quite right um to put them all in the same category but again it's a term a term is a term and at this point you know 15 years ago in this profession people were very rarely using the term trauma um especially the way they're using it today um but today because it's overused it's extended itself to virtually every corner of our work um so everything is Loosely defined as trauma today yeah so coming back to real trauma and people who who've suffered it and struggled it how would they identify that within themselves maybe they they haven't even given it a name or labeled it so can they really then know how to manage it how would they identify it within themselves and and even once they do what are some of the techniques and and mechanisms and treatments and how can that be managed rather than it manage you in the rest of your life right well like we said that trauma is going to impact the way that you experience the world around you so believe it or not most people who have trauma need to be introduced to the fact that they have trauma um I have had I can't tell many countless times of motion I'm sure you could relate to this and Rabbi as well I'm sure because you sit and you talk to people who've been through a lot in their lives where they're telling the most horrific story but they're they're relating it in a way as if they were you know giving you directions from point A to point B um and you're listening to the story and your insides are like turning all over the place they're turning upside down and yet this person is describing it as if this is regular life and and my over overwhelming experience in working with trauma is that most people need to be introduced to the idea that what they went through was not quite okay because when you whatever experiences we go through in life uh we do our best like naturally hasm made us this way that we naturally kind of diffuse that experience and try to make sense of um and I I hope it's okay to share this but one of the inst one of the reactions that people have to being sexually abused in childhood at times because their their system is so overwhelmingly flooded by that experience is they try to make sense of it they try to integrate it into their system some people again it's a minority of people but some of those people reenact what happened to them to make sense of it so they'll go out and do a similar type of thing with a with a sibling with a relative with a classmate whatever that might be so we have a natural protective mechanism inside of us that attempts to neutralize whatever experiences we've been through so most people who've been through trauma before they're introduced to the idea that you you had the original person inside of you you were a certain way and then you encountered something that changed that path it changed the the vantage point of your life you can no longer experience the world through those fresh and original eyes that you that you saw it through um there are many terms for what I'm speaking about now either the original child or or the uh uh the wounded child whatever name we want to give to it so often people need to be introduced to the fact that they've been suffering um and then sort of work backwards and then say okay how do we how do we make sense of what we've been through in our lives uh and it's often introduced by either therapy or loved ones in a person's life or they encounter a hardship that they didn't necessarily anticipate and then it brings them in for some help help but but the help that they're seeking very often is not directly geared towards what the actual problem is you know they'll talk about I'm having a relationship problem or an intimacy problem and then you dig a little bit and then you realize there's a whole story here that this person has sought to like integrate into their system um so they're not paying too much attention to is that a CL classic mechanism coping mechanism like that subconsciously you even deny the trauma so that you can cope and get out of bed in the morning % yeah there are many different ways to describe it every ideology has its own you know terminology to describe what that works but yeah Freud calls it a defense mechanism um other PE humanist called organismic valuing process but it's this this notion that we sort of diffuse the tension in order to survive doc from from your vast experience you know you mentioned that that's very often the first step is just to identify the traumatic experience and and the reality that there's a person beneath that before that experience independent from that experience Etc what what percentage of the work is that is just internalizing that message that I I had a healthy curious innocent little boy little girl Within Me and the traumatic experience shaped who I think I am today and just to to be able to differentiate between the two parts of themselves what percentage of the work is that um and how critical is that towards really processing and working through these these painful experiences yeah I think it's I think it's a huge percentage um I think just because essentially what you're saying and what we're speaking about now is we're reintroducing a person to a self that is often long gone uh there's an innocence that has dissipated or disappeared over time and we want we want them to realize that trauma is not the end of one's life or the recognition or or acknowledgement of trauma is not the end it's off in the beginning of a journey of of rediscovering oneself so the the initial part of that work is just helping integrate them uh to what was and what happened the damage that had caused them and also in doing so you want them to feel it you want to feel it emotionally you want to feel it physiologically you want to be with that part of you that was actually harmed um and then from there once you could clear up if we could call it that and it's it's a it's a term I don't love but because we don't we don't move on from these things we move forward with it you know people who've experienced this type of suffering in their lives they often are some of the greatest people I know some of the greatest change makers around because they it's shaped the way that they see the world not only in a negative way but also in a positive way um they have deeper sense of compassion once they go through this process and the desire to bring greater healing into the world so that initial stage that we're talking about is a huge part of the work and then by going through it successfully you then have the ability to choose again you then have the ability to decide which lenses do I want to put on in the morning um are they my own or is it going to be determined by somebody else or an experience that I had that was largely against my will um so it's a big part if I had to put a number to it I'd say probably close to 60% oh good okay and the role of of family as a person's maybe going through that process uh the role of a loved one a partner um because it's it's going to be a new sense of self right it's it's a redefined or or um somebody who they might not realize they really are um what's the role of family or loved one community members to help you know nurture that that new identity if you will yeah I I so appreciate that thought because it often gets overlooked when you're living with someone either be it a child or a spouse or a parent who's like sort of going through this process you have to expect a great deal of chaos they're it's not going to go smoothly it's not going to be comfortable they're encountering things that are largely new to them feelings that are new and they're on edge I was sitting with a with a woman just uh earlier this week uh it was a consultation she came in to describe something and she was describing she said I'm having such a hard time parenting my kids because I'm so wrapped up in working and relating to my own inner child that was her language she said like I feel like I I she had six children canar and she said I feel like there's this seventh child that the voice is so loud inside of my mind that I don't seemingly have room to raise my other kids and and I think she's right I think she's right and and the next step after that was bringing in her husband and saying like we need to you know elicit his compassion and understanding for what she's going through so he could learn to tolerate that that very rocky road so it's not a simple Journey for a spouse to take alongside someone who's going through at least early stages of treatment um and you have to expect that that the person's going to be a little bit different than you anticipated or from what you knew them to be prior um and as a result of that uh you know the relationship could get really really exciting again you know Esther Perell we're not talking about marriage now she's a marriage writer but ASA Perell always said when there's like a conflict in a marriage or something that severs that relationship she turns to the couple and says that relationship is over now the question is are you willing or or do you have the desire to create a new relationship with the same person and I think it's similar it's like you're recreating something learning a new set of rules um now often people who've been through a lot of trauma could either be one of the two extremes of emotionally cut off because they're having a hard time you know accessing their emotions to being very emotionally volatile um and they get accustomed to that and now all of a sudden the person's going to shift and change and learn to regulate and the question becomes is that a person that you're now interested in again um so it's almost need to re-choose it but there needs to be a lot of compassion for the family um because they're also going a really hard time you said so many people right we established so many people um for whatever reason or however it's labeled are in denial or suppress the fact that they went through a trauma so that they can band-aid and live life nonetheless so you know for the people listening maybe there are people listening who grew up Children of Divorce Maybe there are people listening who were exposed to illness maybe there are people listening who were emotionally or physically abused and yet they they have the resilience to have built a life and they feel like nothing's broken do I need to fix it would you suggest that even if someone didn't come in presenting some other Challenge on life be it parenting or intimacy or marriage and then it was uncovered that there was trauma but somebody now recognizes themselves you know I didn't I necessarily label it that way but now that I think about my life I I endured a trauma I wonder if I'd benefit from peeling off the layers and and seeing what's there if somebody didn't come in presenting an acute is issue where it was discovered it was trauma would you still recommend that it's worth coming in to explore how much better your life could be and how much better you could be it's a wonderful question it's it's a challenging question because I I'm not a believer in encouraging therapy therapy is a solution to a problem that's often the way it's I don't see therapy as as like a completely harmless experience potentially I think we all know that there are people who in the therapeutic process like they encountered things that they were fearful of of actually noticing um and it caused them great distress as a result of that now I don't I don't fully believe that people who've experienced a lot in their lives in a very in a in a challenging way in the real trauma type of way that they would be as you're describing um people who've suffered you know Freud talks about this idea called psychic determinism that you know when you get hit in the face with something with a bat you're going to get a bump you're going to get a bruise um and I think it's the same when it comes to like our emotional well-being there are very few people that have really suffered a great deal that walk through that unscathed people get hurt by it but if you're describing let's say let's this theoretical person is doing really well and and everything thank God is going wonderfully I don't quite see a reason there isn't a problem that they need to address in therapy therapy is a wonderful thing uh but that doesn't necessarily mean that we all do it I think there are plenty of people that do it to enhance their lives but the overwhelming majority of people who go to therapy are those who are attempting to solve a problem um and usually there's a problem when you suffer there's a problem yeah Dr P you know one of the things that as a I would say an agenda of this podcast is to help individuals um come forth if they're struggling to come out of the shadows and to somehow chip away at the Stig stma you know that's associated with mental health can you talk a little bit about some trends that you're seeing in the context of folks really working towards processing their trauma trauma treatment um you know modalities that are being used um that are that are maybe facing communities or subsections of our community in general are we better off because of all the literature and because of you know things like this or or were we better off you know post Holocaust years where people muscled through it and and just found ways to build communities and families what are you seeing on a macro level right well I I don't necessarily believe that we could compare like this generation to the post Holocaust generation they were doing what we were describing before they were surviving they couldn't necessarily look back they needed to do what their system told them to do which is move forward and rebuild and and thank thankfully they were able to do that were all benefiting from their sacrifice in doing so um but there's no question in my mind that what we're seeing today in terms of treatments uh CommunityWide are are helping people a tremendous amount now I'm not suggesting it's not disorienting at times um there's been a lot of new programs that have made their way into our community uh some of them quite rapidly you know we have now tons and tons of intensive trauma programs that are short term let's say five to five days five to 10 days that are a very intense experience you sort of go really far in you encounter that inner child you find a way to nurture that child um and these things are sort of taking over the community by storm I think I don't know if we want to get into it but but certain communities have been largely attracted to the world of psychedelics also as a form of of trauma treatment which again is also taking some communities by storm um so I think we're all we're better off but anytime you introduce something that's new you're always going to go through through a process of disorientation um the the intentions are good the the outcomes are good but when you take someone who has no as we were describing before like no real language with their inner World um they don't understand what's taking place on the inside and you miraculously find a way to give them access to it really quickly usually in therapy it's pretty slow it's methodical it takes time and that's deliberate you do it on purpose because it takes time to process it to to integrate those ideas but some of these newer programs they're like shocking people into you know this inner experience that is profound and if you're not quite ready for it it could really disorient a person there's no question you have any sense on this on the data and the statistics right because towards that agenda that mosha um eloquently articulated about removing the stigma for people to be more sensitive to those around them how pervasive is trauma in our community in the average Sho the minion that you're sitting in are you likely sitting next to in the row of just in the same room at somebody who went through trauma what percentage of people of the community however we want to Define our community for this purpose how how pervasive is it I would imagine again it's hard to get these numbers in the from Community um I really appreciate I forget which RV it was recently at Thea conference who said we need scientists we need people to come in and really give us raw data on our community and because we've been largely protected a little bit isolated uh we tend to not have the same numbers um but but this is a question I've asked like all of my colleagues I'd love to hear mosha your answer to this but I imagine it's somewhere around 20% of a community one way or another um is sort of battling something you know the top areas of trauma being you know divorce and sexual abuse and and emotional neglect things of that sort I imagine 20% um of the population which again we we need to be s sensitized to this reality because we're not speaking about like a tiny tiny percentage Yeah that's really that's really important because it's not 0.02% that means in a room with 10 people two of them have suffered a trauma so if two people in the room you know didn't give you the gabas quickly enough or didn't smile at you back or didn't seem friendly just just be kind to everyone you never know who is facing what chronic challenge or or confronting it and trying to be better and I think that's true for in schools with our kids it's true and TR and communal life for all of us and if you're one of those two don't feel that you're alone you're not 0.02% of the population there's someone else in that room of 10 that's going through what you're going through don't feel alone come out of the Shadows get that help and realize you know it's not your fault there shouldn't be a stigma around it yeah absolutely there there's no it doesn't hurt us to be wonderful to everyone around us you know to give him a smile especially someone who doesn't know what a smile feels like how how important is that the smile right you you were sharing even before we we we were talking on the episode about giving people the opportunity to tell their story to experience warmth or affection so what are some of those things that even without knowing some maybe if we know maybe we have a family member extended family member a friend or a colleague who we know is trying to work on some past traumatic event what are the kind of things we could do to show them support yeah well there's I give a quick uh story when I I'm let's say teaching about addiction um I make sure to send everyone all the students to let's say a 12-step meeting or something like that some type of meeting a support network and without fail it's been let's say 13 14 years of teaching and without fail the end of that paper I'd say 95% of the time someone writes um I I only wish that we had more of this in our community why do you have to be an addict in order to get to to live in an environment where there's so much unconditional care and support and love for one another where you could simply speak your mind why do you have to go to the opposite end of the Earth to sort of return back to a place that is deeply compassionate and I think it speaks to this idea that what if we created an environment that tolerated a person speaking their truth in a way that was was honest and wholesome and possibly hurtful to hear it's not so simple to listen to to another person's suffering but it's a wonderful opportunity to be present with such a person and I think what like many cases of suffering we tend to stay away from it even if we're familiar with it and we know it um we store it somewhere and and we rationalize to ourselves that they're probably uncomfortable having the conversation with us uh in reality uh people often are they really appreciate when they're followed up on by another person saying I get that you're having a hard time I'm here with you I'm just thinking about you I know I have a a tradition I've worked with many addicts over the years years most addicts by the way have a history of trauma the overwhelming amount of them and um and there are certain times of the year that are very challenging for an addict in The Firm Community going into perm going into simor these are just tough times for them and I have like a list now probably close to 200 people that have accumulated over the years that I'll call on you know AR of perm saying like I know this is a hard time I'm thinking about you and if you you know you're having a hard time I'm right here give me a call um and these are people that some of them I've just met along the way some I've worked with years ago um again this is my line of work so I don't expect that from everybody else um but at the same time like it goes a really long way to let people know that they matter to you so much of the you know in terms of trauma processing trauma and addiction treatment at its core you know addiction is is you know profound loneliness an individuals for whatever reason have the they were not capable of connecting or building sustaining intimacy and so much of the group model that is used in in recovery programs or the 12 steps that you referenced um th those those meetings is about creating safety and building intimacy one to the other um and that's that just creating that environment as a platform for for those individuals to come out to share their story to be heard uh and to be confronted in a healthy way is so much part of the healing it's a huge part whether it's a traumatic um you know injury so to speak that that caused the addiction uh complex trauma on an emotional level anxiety whatever The Under World of addiction is so much of the treatment and so much of the recovery process is around that shared experience and the fellowship and the you know non-judgmental environment that that is created in the rooms um across programs Etc so yeah and we we' all benefit from that that's the truth but especially people who've been through so much like because like as you're describing trauma creates a sense of isolation and loneliness and when you sort of come that person comes out and they could be embraced uh in a meaningful way the healing quality of that is just amazing I remember I was speaking to an Oldtimer in the rooms once and I asked them I said why is if anyone here has been to a 12-step meeting there's a lot of touching there's a lot of people hugging each other and often they saw each other a day before at a different meeting but then they saw them the following day and there's a huge hug all over again and I asked the guy I said like what is it all about and he looked at me with these very wise eyes and he said we're just making up for lost time son that's it and we're we're we're we're just making up for lost time we didn't have this and that's all he was saying we didn't have this we don't know this and now we're giving it to ourselves as a gift um and we could all do that for for ourselves and and one another at every step of the way you know right now on zo but I I would love to hug this out at this moment that would be fabulous we're giving we're giving a hug you could send that energy even over technology Dr PR's a great place to leave it and we want to thank you for for your time and your expertise and your contribution to this subject throughout the community and uh teaching so many others so thank you for sharing your wisdom with us thank you for having you thank [Music] you we're joined Now by zeld Bry zeldy thank you so much for for the courage to join us to share a little bit of your story and the circumstances of trauma around your story which we know is going to help so many people and we're so grateful mosha you recently had an experience somebody shared with you it's it's interesting the timing just last week um I was speaking to somebody who is married in a relationship probably 15 or 18 years they have grown children um and they had a very challenging experience um a traumatic experience when they were a kid that they suppressed for many many years and they were going through a little bit of a challenge with their one of their children that triggered this onslaught of emotion and almost paralyze them from their ability to be productive and I I was telling them just wait just wait there's going to be you know we're interviewing somebody we're doing this discussion around trauma and how people could really navigate and and move through it despite the Deep pain and confusion um so we're really excited and and humbled um for you know to hear your story and and thank you for your courage and willingness to to come on the show here and and to share thank you thank you mosha really just appreciate so much the opportunity and it means so much for me to be here um I wanted to share a thought that I have been having as I get the opportunity to meet so many people and you know started to speak out a little bit more at different events and then whatnot I feel like everyone has that one thing that they fear the most I'm sure you could all think of that one thing that scares you for me and I'm sure for many other people it was always public speaking getting up sharing my voice sharing my opinions I couldn't understand how people have the courage and confidence to do it it was something that I always said I will never ever do I am not capable of getting up and speaking and sharing for other people to hear what's coming out of my mouth and it's amazing for me to be able to reflect on it here as I sit with you and all those listening and it show me something so powerful you know what is the fear what is it the lack of confidence feeling very small inadequate I mean the list can go on but you know I found through building up myself figuring out who I am and I'm continuing to do that only then realizing that I had a strength in me that I was able to connect with others and I found that strength that I never thought I even had and literally the thing that I feared the most in the world ended up being something that was such a huge quality for me and I don't think not that I don't think I actually I know that I would have never been able to get to that point without having gone through what I did to get me to where I am today and to where I continue to strive to be so it's it's very it's like especially meaningful to me that I'm actually sitting here with you all and talking and speaking this is not something that you know comes naturally to me um but it's I'm I'm very proud of it and I like it's it's it's amazing for me so really again that's an amazing thought that's a very amazing thought it's very empowering to the people listening and even in that little thought how you've transformed the pain you've been through to recognize that it is enabled you to be and empowered you to be you know who you are today so you know that part of Out of the Shadows is to to remove the stigma the Shanda the shame surrounding these issues of mental health and and part of doing that is for people to realize that those who've gone through things are are their neighbor their friend um are somebody that they know so let's start tell us a little bit about about yourself and then to the degree that you're comfortable a little bit about the story that brings you here today and and where we are and where we're going 100% so yeah I'm going to backtrack a little bit of time to a much earlier time um you know when I think about when I think about Early Childhood a lot of happy memories come up for me I come from a very big family I love my blog love the school and you know the way the way I think about it it's very subjective to to me this is my own personal opinion one thing that I'm always like clear I'm not a clinician I'm I'm not wearing that hat this is my own personal opinion on it when it comes to the word trama for a young child to really to be able to understand and comprehend what's going on around them can be very difficult you know these are people that we love and that we trust and the world is seemingly perfect everyone is good um people are protecting us all the time so for a young kid to experience trauma but to not really be able to comprehend and understand what is going on for them um you know as time goes on though as one gets a little bit older things can start coming up but not really you know like I remember for myself I'm like I'm like going back in that time where I wasn't even quite sure what are the things that I was feeling I knew that something wasn't right my body knew it the whole nervous system will know it but the mind can't fully grasp and understand really what's going on around them how to even verbalize these feelings you know sometimes children you'll see children will act out for whatever reason it is it could be something very minute and small and then something a lot more bigger underlying but for a child a lot of times they're not going to be able to express and verbalize with words of what it is that they're feeling and they'll mask that pain or they'll Express the pain in some ways um without actually being able to say the words but they are crying out for help in some ways of just like someone take notice of me something's not okay and I remember I remember doing that like I have these like clear memories of certain experiences that I was going through as like a young kid in school in elementary that I was clearly not okay and clearly in pain but just not knowing how to say it um but when you look back when you take a look back in your life like okay wow like that was a clear sign out for pain um you know but when I think about like the next chapter as time went on a little bit as I got a little older thinking like in high school years it got a little bit harder there's one thing that I there's one word that comes to my mind when it comes to high school years or early te years and that word is loneliness I had such a hard time you know connecting with others academics very much affected really really struggling to understand myself or what is it that I was feeling and just so desperately wanting to feel that safety stability and that security that I so lacked um but having like no idea like you know like when you start to like understand certain things but you don't know why you're feeling these ways and is anyone else feeling it like it was just like a world of loneliness that's really the word that I that I put in for for those years and I you know I I remember like a very a very Vivid thought in in my teenage years that as I started to really grasp certain things and just not knowing what to do with it and not really fully understanding what it is that I had really gone through and how to navigate it or what to do with it um these are the two thoughts that stuck out for me it's like why why would something that happened so long ago right this is something that past experience I was like presently seemingly okay but something that happened so long ago why would it be affecting me so strongly today like what in the world is wrong with me that something that happened like I lived in that mentality it's like this is what happened and now you get up and you move on it's like why why is something like it's it's not such a big deal you know those were the things that were like going through my mind at the time and another thing was just like who in the world could have gone through something similar am I the only one to other struggle in this way and those were the two thoughts that like I literally I'll never forget and and those are the things that just like stuck with me for a couple of years um what did you do with those thoughts did you did you address an adult is there someone that you trusted is there someone you could confide in to talk about this traumatic experience and how you were failed as a child and what that embedded in you as as you were haunted by those thoughts was there an address that you can Channel them I think at that time through those years I didn't feel like either either was like a like a worthy like I didn't feel worthy enough to like be able to pick up the phone or talk to someone I felt there's a lot of Shame and stigma around or not really even understanding or connecting dots so fully to really understand what it is I'm even trying to say or maybe feeling very scared if I'm GNA like open up to someone if I'm going to say something is someone going to minimize you know what it is that I went through or like or like say that my pain wasn't valid I don't even know how to pinpoint it or what it is that held me back but I lived with a lot of these feelings very silently for a long time which you know is terrible for somebody to have to live with such amount of of pain and loneliness and Sil like I say like the word silent suffering um yeah yeah how old were you at the time can you just give us a little bit of a window into your age you mentioned high school was post what yeah I would say that like when when things got very rough and tough for me um was really high school I say high school years um I just I went to a large High School I feel like I was just like one small little insignificant person um I would say it was those years and post you know my later teenag years and the traumatic experiences took place prior to high school right exactly and you were a child you were you were a child you were you know a person that didn't necessarily have the language or feel safe or even as appropriate to share any of these these right or really not even understanding like what it is that I you know anything like that um yeah so it it was really it was really those years and I know I remember I remember like another thought you know like those memories that you have that are so vivid like you literally remember where you were at the time I remember now from flest walking down the streets on Avenue M and having a conversation with God and this was not an angry one right we had many of those but this was not like me coming at God and saying like how could you do this to me what did I ever do in this world like it wasn't like that at all I was having like a very you know heart-to- heart with God and like really reasing with him and I'm I'm sharing this I'm like talking and it's it's I remember like always feeling like embarrassed to even like verbalize but I'm about to Shear but like through the work that we're doing today like I hear I hear this so often that other people have really felt this way and like I I literally heard this recently from another member who put together a beautiful poem that so much spoke about what I'm about to share I remember you know walking down the streets and saying God like I'm not here to even question your ways right like we all have to go through different experiences in life we all have to go through the pain I'm not GNA even ask you why right we all I'm sure there's some Grand reason um but what I am going to ask you is if I had to experience that pain for whatever reason I'm gonna accept it I'll take it I remember having this thought so clearly you know you know those memories where you have when they're so vivid you like remember remember where you were when you had it remember having this conversation with god and having this open heart tohe heart with him and it wasn't coming from an angry place it wasn't coming from this like hatred um like why did you give me what you did it was more like you know I'm gonna let's have a conversation um I'm not questioning your ways I'm even gonna say okay we'll accept you know everyone has their Shear in life what they have to go through but couldn't couldn't I get something that I can pick up the phone call someone call an organization have that family and the support the friends and a school and like I just have people around me that I don't feel the stigma attached I remember thinking like you know why am I thinking all these thoughts and I I realize really today looking back like there are so many people that I met who have really felt the same way of just feeling so you know alone in it and feeling there so much shame and stigma associated with something like sexual abuse um um and it was it was really you know it was really really tough for me um you know the pain from trauma can be so debilitating for someone not knowing who to turn to who the right supports are it can be so so tough but but I will also say this today and I can say a lot more confidently today you know um I think because I know what it feels like because of what that pain and that loneliness that I have gone through today you know it is my driving Force into why I'm able to do it I do today and being able to create a whole network for those suffering from trauma um of sexual abuse and and that they don't have to suffer alone what would you say zeldie thank you for that I mean it's a p sounds like it was a powerful conversation with Hashem and and so so many of us have those deep honest you know conversations uh that are pivotal moments in our lives what would you say for those that are still struggling in silence that uh feel uh incapable of of sharing or unsure how what are some techniques you could perhaps give to our audience if somebody's listening that had this experience uh this traumatic event uh in their life sure to anyone listening who had experienced you know a trauma or any real significant pain in your life whatever it is you know this would be my message to you you are not alone there is one thing that is so important for you to remember and I wish someone would have told this to me by the way um your trauma is something that happened to you and does not define you it is not the essence of who you are sometimes you need to peel off those layers to find out you know the real you but it is there trust the process I'll often hear this from people asking me how long do I need to be therapy in order for me to heal when is the finish line there's no you know to me like there's no real answer for that for everyone it's going to look different but it's about not letting yourself get knocked down when you do have that step back or you're feeling depressed you're feeling down to get back up and try as hard as you can to surround yourself with the supports whatever it is out there there are people who have gone through and are going through similar not that it necessarily is going to help or make it you know feel 100% better but it helps to know that whatever it is you're struggling that you're not completely alone in it and you know some other things that I like to think about um you know Finding finding ways to connect with others I think it helps tremendously in the in the healing process finding the things that you can do for yourself to help you cope um whatever that is if it could be writing drawing exercise and find the things that interest you um and do things for yourself and you'll teach yourself that you can give to yourself and you can love yourself so you know that's something that message that like I wish someone would have told me back then while going through it it's a lot easier said than done to be honest to say all this but but that's a message that I would really want to put out there to anyone struggling in a big way Z I'm curious I'm sure the people listening are also first of all thank you for sharing that those those techniques and that advice there are undoubtedly people listening right now who are in pain and think they're in pain alone and to know they're not alone is is huge which is really the point of our whole podcast Out of the Shadows You're Not Alone come out of the Shadows let's be together a community let's support one another what changed in you you described that loneliness and that isolation that Solitude that pain that suffering and silence you described that that permeating so much of your childhood and your critical teenage years and some changed that you went for help and that you got some therapy and and you got some support and now look at you you're in a position that you're providing that support to others so what what's the switch that flipped what changed what created that moment that you were able to address it differently someone else might be able to find strength in that too sure sure I really love that question you know I think when I look back I think for me it was a very slow gradual process I didn't necessarily feel comfortable right away to share and disclose I didn't right away believ that I'm going to be validated in the way that I needed or anyone will be able to really fully understand what it is that I was going through it happened slowly over time going to therapy that was that was a big one um understanding that I wasn't the only one who went through this and slowly while I began to peel those layers off and understand parts of myself better and the experience that I had also understanding why I reacted in certain ways and really learning to accept myself for it you know because that was a hard part and I was ready and slowly over time I would say I was ready to connect to others and I actually remember really wanting to find someone that I could confide in um someone that who can be there for me while going through the Journey like I I definitely wanted that connection and it wasn't as it wasn't necessarily so easy for me to find that as well right away and for me to be able to learn to trust and learn to let someone in so that I would say it was a very slow gradual process for me personally um but I was so happy when I did I mean it was lifechanging for me once I started to talk to others to open up and I and I realized you know through that time that I had a a power even connecting with others that like something sparked in me through everything that I wanted to be able to give back to others which was it was such a beautiful way in my own healing process while doing the work and then once I got to a place where I was a lot more okay he and I was a lot more ready to be able to open up and sheer um and I was also able to give back to others know so that that was a that was a beautiful part of the journey you've used your pain to help others which is really extraordinary which is really extraordinary would you every trauma is different uh each each person's experience in Journey and pain is different but you know if you could generalize do you think that when a person has experienced trauma do they need to go through the healing and the work and then they're okay or is this something that they need support and needs to be managed for the rest of their lives but but they can meaning so so just just understand your question fully when they're going through do you want to just rephrase that I just want to when a person's experience trauma do they go for therapy and they now talk out and they resolve what they went through and now they're done they're good they're they're fixed for the rest of their life and and if you're listening I put air quotes fixed as if they were broken um or is it something that no that trauma has embedded some some deep things that now for the rest of life may always be there lingering in the background be aware of them navigate them you can manage them and they don't have to hold you back meaning for a person who underwent trauma do they need to do the hard work and they're done or is it something that for the rest of Life be part of a support system and awareness and and as you go forward you know I remember I remember when someone came over to me and asked me you know if I'm going to go ahead and do that trauma work I'm going to go to therapy does it mean like in two years I'm never going to have to think about all of this that I went through I'm not going to have these thoughts in my head I'm not going to suffer this way and it was hard for me to answer that because you know like I I think I think there are parts that are always gonna this is something that it like I said before it doesn't Define who you are it's not the essence of who you are but there may be parts of you that you're always going to carry but it does not mean that you can lead a very happy healthy functional life um and you know and and move on in a way so I I definitely could say that with the right help and the right supports and the right therapy doesn't mean you necessarily have to be in therapy for the rest of your life I think for every person it's going to look different um but not to ever think that this is something that has to stick with you and has to drag you down and weigh you down for the rest of your life I I really see such beauty and such you know powerful amazing results in such resilient people who had gone through the worst and are are doing well today um and like I I I may have you know said this earlier but I really love this analogy of and I I often think about this I often tell this to other people that you know like when with those boxes of being able to have the pain right sometimes it's going to come up there are certain things that are going to be triggering that are going to come up later on life and you don't even know like why am I feeling this way it could be from like an earlier Trigger or and then your life could be everything's going okay you know you're you're you're going through the motions you're happy you're functioning you're moving on and then sometimes things will come up but it doesn't it's not a contradiction like it's okay to to have that happiness have that fulfillment but also at times you know have that pain and sadness come up and it it's and that's something that like forgive yourself for it it's okay to have that also and it's you know you could have both so there's actually a there's a clinical modality called ifs where it's it's Parts work uh to give an individual basic techniques to be able to differentiate between sometimes polarizing emotions or conflicting thoughts uh within the same human being within the same um you know experiences that they're seeing or triggers that they're having um zeli if you could talk a little bit to those of us that um listen and hear for perhaps the first time a child or a friend that shared with us that they were that they experienced a trauma whether it's a you know if they are a victim of sexual abuse or any significant traum traumatic experience what what are some dos and don'ts um for the first time hearer the person who who are is listening to the very first time somebody disclosing and taking that risk um for those of us who are parents of a young child or a friend or a spouse what are some things that we can we can learn from from you that can be helpful to those that will hopefully share and and and guide them to to to strength and and to recovery sure sure you know when you when you find that person you know that offers that unconditional love and acceptance no judgment and it make it makes all the difference it is it's crucial it's really crucial especially when someone can already be judging themselves not accepting themselves um you know sometimes it'll be a family member sometimes it's that distant relative a friend a rabbi whatever it is it's important to be able to develop that trust which can take time to build especially when coming you know and sharing and and confiding can already be so vulnerable um you know when I when I take a a look back to and when I reflect on myself to see how everything folded we it led me and you know where it took me to today I'm I'm so grateful um but I could say that you know for myself like I had a mixture of those responses I had those people that when I shared or disclosed or whatever it was it was it was so validating and it was exactly what I needed and then there's those you know responses that definitely definitely hurt um and you know when it comes to this topic and it's a much bigger topic you know but the response that a person can have when someone does confide however that's going to happen however it's going to come to light it is so crucial to that person's recovery and healing process to be believed in to feel accepted to feel like no matter what they went through they're going to have people there for them and often times by the way I mean people are not getting those responses that they they're looking for and that they deserve and that part can be so so painful and traumatic in itself yeah we've seen that I mean from the the therapist chair if you will uh where very often it's the first time somebody is disclosing or sharing and and you know what you talked about is just that unconditional positive regard and acceptance is so fundamental um and also just to be mindful for people um that very often it's an opportunity to validate and embrace and encourage the person to continue to disclose or also it can be down that's such a powerful opportunity and yet it's a it's a it's a tricky road because for if the person who reads that you're not uh trusting them or that for whatever reason you're doubting their story it can ret traumatize them and then it could bring them back to that dark hole so it's it's an opportunity and yet it's a delicate one uh with for for hearing that for the first time you know one sorry I've just reflected back people have shared that you know it's it's just to say thank you for sharing that and and I appreciate that you know if you're a loss of words and don't really know where to go with it as Somebody discloses To You just you know recognize that that the person was courageous enough to share it it's so validating and and it is courageous to them and it takes them some sometimes years um and if you're that person that's hearing it for the first time just to reinforce it saying thank you I appreciate you trusting me with this secret of yours that in its own right is so empowering for the person 100 100% I actually I remember talking to this young woman who told me that after she shared with I I forgot who she told me either a close family friend or a family member and when she got like just the whole conversation went so sour and so just you know shoved under the rug um and nothing was done she said that in itself was worse than everything that she had gone through the aftermath of like finally getting the courage to be able to open up and share and not having the response that she was looking for was was the worst thing for her and that really stuck with her and that's why this this podcast is so important and your courage to to participate in it because the truth is people are well-meaning and they're well-intentioned and they're not educated on these issues really almost for all of history until recently we've not tackled and we've never validated these issues and so person hears that they might get inappropriate and ask inappropriate questions out of curiosity they might like you said sweep it onto the carpet they don't know how to deal with it they don't want to deal with it their life was much simpler before they knew what they just learned and they don't want to know what they just learned about someone or about the either the perpetrator or the victim and so I'm not defending the behavior but that's why it's so important to to educate and to inform people and to open them up to the fact that there's likely someone in their life who's who's undergone a trauma and they may share it and here are the kind of things to say that that we've shared so zeldie thank you so much for the courage to join us for all the work that you're doing to share your story we wish you only continued strength and success in in your amazing healthy life that you've taken your pain and you're using it to support and help other people that in itself is incredibly inspirational thank you so much for joining us on on out of the Shadows thank you any final thoughts zeld before we let her go Rabbi any any any last comments that you want to share with with people yes 100% I first of all I just want to highlight this as we close out something that I feels so privileged to get to witness you know we started an organization for men and women who had experienced sexual abuse and it's it's so amazing for me to see and I just want to share this with you and I often share this with the members of our organization um you know these women and men who are calling the organization because they are desperate for that support and they're coming into the organization they're coming into all the groups that we have and what's amazing for me to be able to see as an objective View and to be able to really witness is what they end up doing for each other and these men and women are coming and they're really are not in always the the greatest place right now in their life and they're really feeling alone but what happens is when they come into these groups they they came in to receive the support but now they became the givers and it's amazing it's it's just so beautiful for me to be able to see and to watch that it's often you know the ones who who sometimes have to fall the lowest and feel feel in such Low Places who end up reaching Such Great Heights and it's a true honor for me to get to know so many amazing people who are fighting conquering and achieving such greatness and and I just really want to thank you all for being able to give me the platform to be able to share a little bit of myself it's not necessarily so easy for even me to do but I know that if I could even help one person out there it is so well worth it so thank you for the opportunity thank you zeli wishing you all the best thank you so much Mo another great episode great conversations I know I learned a lot very enriched by it um my takeaway and this is a theme that's been coming out now for three episodes is the importance of helping people not feel alone so much of of mental illness and mental health struggles have to do with experiencing alone feeling alone feeling ashamed and so for all of us as a community as individuals as family members to be ready be prepared be prepared to listen without judgment be prepared to love and accept people be prepared to follow up and check in be prepared to be able for people to confide and unburden themselves in us if we create an environment a culture a community of better listening and of better connection then we can help people really come out of the Shadows tackle their demons so to say lead much healthier lives we'll all be much healthier together that's something I learned tonight 100% And you know we say share it don't fear it um and that's really the you know at the core of navigating and processing any behavioral health challenge um you know we see it on on a communal level both um both episodes regarding anxiety and Trauma we talked a little bit about uh forming groups and the power of the group and the power of um you know alleviating the shame through processing it and sharing with other people whether that's in a structured way or in a private way you know speaking to somebody during the kdes um at sh or having a conversation with a spouse or a child uh facilitating environment of non-judgmental sincere listening active listening to helping that individual idual share the pain that they've experienced and through that can help guide them to continuing to share it and process it whether it's through a professional uh you know lens or it's through a peer support model um we we see that so often on uh you know on a on more of a structured environment through a treatment center um or a therapist office or a one-on-one conversation with the RV uh but even as as as friends and as community members to be able to create an environment uh for people to share safety is so critical to help people navigate that and the more we talk about it uh the more people will be encouraged and inspired to take that risk and to share absolutely so if you undergone a trauma or if you know someone in your life who has and you'd like to learn more about it you could see the resources in the show notes we continue to welcome your feedback and uh we have the details how in the show notes as well thank you for joining us we're looking forward to the next episode to continue the conversations tackling mental health so all of us can bring this topic Out of the Shadows thank you all we hope you enjoyed this episode of Out of the Shadows to help bring the show to a wider audience please rate and review on Apple podcasts you can subscribe and find more episodes of Out of the Shadows on Apple podcasts Spotify YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts for further resources be sure to check out the show notes [Music]