Conversation - A Debate: Should a Rabbi Tell Others for Whom to Vote?

we're live okay out of talking good evening thank you all for joining us for tonight's debate the shame shamayam my name is robbie benjamin blau as you see by the tag rabbi biniblow and i have the honor and privilege of serving as the moderator to tonight's debate our evening this evening has our evening has really two objectives on the one hand our objective is a debate with shame shamayim the rca has tried to show that individuals can engage in a passionate discussion about issues in a way that really is reflective of their beliefs their ideals at the same time do so and really respect one another i want to thank at the outset rabbi hyams stroupler who really created this program and of course from danielle kuropkin the president of the rca who spearheaded it and championed it and so far we've done two of these such events and they've been extremely successful so that's one objective to be a model for what civil discourse can be like in our society something that's sorely missing in the modern age and in that sense we're very fortunate that i have two kaverim two personal friends of mine ruby ephraim goldberg and robbie barry cornblau both who i've worked together professionally and personally for many many years who i have the greatest admiration for and more deeply i know they have an admiration for each other and i know therefore be able to engage in our discussion in a manner that will be the cavalrus to really show what a debate the shame shamayim should be like so i said that's the primary objective on one hand but there's a very worthwhile topic on the other hand and that's the topic of should the rabbi tell jews whom they should vote for both rabbis goldberg and rabbi cornblaw wrote pieces about this very topic uh prior to the election uh ruby rivera referring to him this evening wrote it wrote why orthodox jews should vote for joe biden and reverend goldberg wrote as an orthodox rabbi i will not tell you how to vote and neither should anyone else so both of them have addressed the topic but we felt that it's such an important discussion we wanted to share it with you so i'm going to turn to my two presenters again my two good kaverim and i'll first i'll turn to you reverend and ask the question should a rabbi tell jews whom they should vote for that from the floor is yours thank you so much rabbi blau thank you for moderating tonight and thank you for your friendship always and i echo the thanks to rabbi strauchler rabbi karapkan and the rca for hosting this i think more than ever we need to hopefully try to model and learn from others about how to disagree agreeably so i want to begin by by saying that i'd love to change the name from a debate a mach lokas the shame shamayim to a discussion hashem a debate suggests a winner and a loser the one defeats the other the pundits always follow up a debate by trying to determine holding up their score cards and rabari is a good friend and a colleague and we have different points of view that are legitimate and reasonable and we're here to have a discussion with shame shamayim not so much a debate and i think that that before anything else is so important particularly the parsios that we're about to start reading about yosef and we're living in such a politically polarized world that people position the other as the adversary the opposite you voted for who how what you're a self-hating you don't care about you don't care as much as i do and shalom people are even unable to give a shalom aleichem and i know that rabari and i'm sure he'll address this tonight felt that people who were voting in a certain direction particularly within the orthodox community had no voice that others wouldn't give them a shalom and others on the other hand feel that as well so um i think it's important to state at the outset that tonight is not and if you tuned in to watch a ruthless debate with scorecards afterwards it's not the case it's hopefully going to be a meaningful discussion of two friends who have different points of view on a an important on an important topic every election is the most important election of our generation in fact articles came out before this one that are tracing headlines in newspapers for the last many decades and beyond that show that before every election it is presented as the most important election of our time when was it not clicking news that the news archive shows that and people will say well this election the stakes are so high higher than ever so much is on the ballot uh be it character health care the pandemic iran israel economy uh be it um no shortage of no shortage of issues it's all on the ballot and so again i ask when was an election not of enormous consequence when were we able to say that it doesn't really matter every election is and every election one would argue that this is the most important election that's why this candidate is most aligned with not my values god's values this is most aligned with our torah values and to suggest that you could possibly endorse or vote for the other normally i wouldn't say anything but this election and these candidates i have no choice and i think the first point i want to make is that living under the microscope of the particular election with the lens zoomed in we feel that with every election but we feel that sorry with that particular election but that argument could be made with every election and i don't think that this one was an exception and i think it would take truly extraordinary um policy advocacy uh that would cross a line for us to cross our line what i think should be our line as rabbis of not endorsing of not endorsing public opinions there are exceptions and maybe this will come up in our conversation in england last year there was an exception where chief rabbi marvis and even chief rabbi lord sacks came out which was uncharacteristic and historical for them to do but i think it's very instructive to note that they did not come out and endorse to the best of my knowledge a candidate they didn't endorse johnson but rather they highlighted the anti-semitic positions and anti-semitic character of a candidate and even when they thought that they had to deviate from their normal behavior and come out and weigh in on an election they didn't do so by endorsing candidate they didn't tell the people the jews of the united kingdom who they can or must vote for they pointed out about one of the candidates certain flaws that they thought were uh so beyond the pale that they came out in order to be able to do so now this election that we just had in every election shapes the character of a nation and there are meaningful policy implications and consequences i said and we always feel that we need to well these policies have torah sources the torah has what to say jewish law have what to say for jewish philosophy has what to say who better to communicate what torah have to say on issues than rabbis but here's where i come out if the torah has seventy faces to interpret torah and aylavelo divided when it comes to matters of jewish law even issues of life and death we have legitimate and reasonable different positions that we both feel are okay then why when it comes to politics do we not believe that there is the possibility of different reasonable and legitimate approaches and once we understand as rabbis that there are different reasonable and legitimate approaches on policy among candidates and parties then who and are we and why would we weigh in to tell anyone what they must believe and so really i want to formulate my argument in three ways or benny you will indicate to me when i'm running out of time and i hope that despite of barry having a picture of your father behind him you will indicate to him when he runs out of time as well so the three points i want to make are number one who made us rabbi smarter when it comes to politics we're not pundits we're not necessarily better read we're not necessarily more sophisticated and we are not positioned to give conclusive instruction on which candidate is best will be best and who everybody should vote for what i think we are positioned and empowered and obligated to do is to formulate what torah values are so to speak about the religious significance if we believe that as i and i think we all do of the state of israel of uh caring about and advocating for the us israel relationship of combating anti-semitism even if we want to discuss which i think is also a dangerous territory to enter because i think there are hot button issues that the words themselves are politically driven but even if we want to talk about immigration or we want to talk about climate or we want to talk about those things i think that we as rabbis have a responsibility to talk about them in the context of torah values but stopping short of saying therefore whom to vote for our ms balalim our congregants our neighbors and our friends may be smarter than us maybe better read than us maybe more sophisticated than we are we should remind them what the torah counts on as the most important values and then trust them trust that they have the judgment to determine which candidate in their opinion and based on their background and through the filter and lens of their life thinks will best execute and follow through and stand up for those values our responsibility is not to shy away for what torah values are we should put it out there and let our members and let the jewish world take it process it digest it and come to the conclusion based on their own thought about who will best be able to align themselves and best be able to execute and fulfill those values number two as rabbis there's enormous risk in taking public positions endorsing candidates or parties and the enormous risk is that while we'll get a big ashikawa pat on the back in the echo chamber of our community who will agree with us and will tell us how important it is to speak out and why these times are unparalleled and unprecedented but there's a segment of our community and in some cases the minority in some cases more than that who will be alienated who will be driven away who will feel so distanced from our taking that public position so much so that maybe they have some guidance they need from us some counsel they want from us upsock in jewish law they want but now they challenge our judgment now they question that we're really similar or that we can have a relationship or that our answer will resonate for them because if we can be so sure on politics in a different way than them we run an enormous risk i think of alienating people but more than running the risk of alienating the people with whom we're supposed to be close and supposed to dedicate our lives in areas that are much more important they don't need us for politics they can read and watch and post and click and forward and share politics but they need us for so much more and we can be cutting off that channel to be there for them in those ways if we enter the fray of politics but more than that we run the risk of someone in shul saying the rabbi's on my side the rabbi sees it my way and they can weaponize that against a friend against a fellow congregant we now can be used we can be abused because someone will say you see the rabbi agrees you have to vote this way otherwise x y or z and so in a polarized world we're contributing to the divisiveness and the polarization if we publicly aside and i think the likelihood that we're going to change minds or opinions is very small the greater likelihood is that we'll alienate and further polarize but i have a third opinion ravini do i have time for one more one more third and final reason for why i think it's a mistake for rabbis to publicly endorse candidates not to shy away from the important issues and policies but to endorse candidates is and this is a little bold and i will say it in an exaggerated fashion we are supposed to be beacons of the moon and we are supposed to demonstrate the humility to say i don't and i can't ever understand or predict everything it's a complicated world around me i don't know why it happens the way it does hashem has a lot of agents and sends a lot of people to do his bidding and we don't know the divine scheme of who is supposed to win now we have to take our initiative i i voted i got my proud sticker election day and i voted because i believe it's a civic duty i believe it's a responsibility to vote we have to take our establish our initiative to vote but beyond personally voting taking a public stance as if we're telling people you must vote or should vote in this way because we know who will be best how do we truly know how do we truly know shalom al-malik the wisest of all men didn't live beyond hashem he understood that ultimately hashem is the one who fashions and therefore i'll tip him and we shouldn't have over confidence in ourselves we should demonstrate the humility to say i'm considering the issues here's what i care about here are the variables that will enter into how i make my decision it's a personal decision i'll share it with you privately and personally not as a rabbi and i trust you to make your decision i make it with humility i make it with hope but i don't make it with any sense of certainty or confidence thank you ephraim for your impassioned encouraging presentation rivera answered the same question should a rabbi tell jews whom they should vote for it's a pleasure to be on this panel with you rav from uh ravini uh with rabbi stroupler and uh for organizing uh the innumerable hours that i worked on projects with all of you and other artists on the staff of the rca as a constant source of strength and inspiration tonight's debate about rabbinic electoral endorsement is really about a horse that long ago left the barn every week with a vice publisher widely read only partisan columns about politics candidates and elections rabbi y jacobson that a multi-million dollar re-election fundraiser which trump attended a group of israeli religious zionist rabbis a group of american kharadi rabbis the head of nary israel rabbi riskin and innumerable others all publicize their their support for trump in this election to list those gone as a general rule many of the reasons i publicly stated my own reasons for that general rule in a new york jewish week interview a few weeks back uh they largely relate to rabbi's roles in their local communities um and that's also why during the past two decades as a rabbi i had never before endorsed a candid presidential candidate until this past october i'm just slight feedback are you hearing that also yes sorry about that take a moment take a moment don't worry i i timed your veteran we're on good timing i i'll uh we won't include this in your time take a moment i don't have another device so i don't know what i could be echoing from but okay we'll have to just keep on going um but um as i was saying just as other rules have exceptions uh this general principle simply simply cannot be absolute hey the bear there's a time to remain silent in time to speak as our referendum points out for chief rob for the chief rabbi of britain and the organized jewish community of great britain the moment came last year but i believe that every person every american every jew every rabbi every queen esther knows that there's a meodema when one feels obligated to take a strong public stand whether for or against a candidate or an office holder for some that time may never come but i believe that when push comes to shove almost all of us can imagine such a moment and so i think that the real question is under what circumstances a rabbi should take a position in an election having defined i am not really going to answer it because i don't think a generally applicable rule for rabbinic political speech exists i certainly don't know one other than to use one's best judgment giving due consideration to a wide range of complex factors many of which on the no side ephraim elucidated so well instead i'll provide six answers to a question that i can answer why did i after two decades of not endorsing presidential candidates published a fifth 4500 word essay and then a follow-up piece advocating the jews especially orthodox ones support joe biden for president why did i think that this election required an exception well i agree with ravefrom one thing is for sure that in the current political environment i certainly did not act under the illusion that my writing would change many minds the first reason i spoke as a rabbi was to provide a torah counterweight to the one-sided and overwhelming support for trump and the corresponding denigration of political liberals that for years has been palpable throughout our orthodox world beyond the long list of rabbinical endorsements i already mentioned this one-sided reality is ironically reflected even in the odd imbalance of tonight's panel on whether rabbis should endure candidates why are none of the many pro-trump rca rabbanim who openly and unabashedly support trump why aren't they here to stay of course yes and an obvious answer is that hearing tonight from yet another orthodox rabbi touting trump's accomplishments or saying that joe biden is beholden to the anti-israel anti-semitic defund the pled socialist squad loving left that would have been a big ho-hum we hear it all the time but hearing from an rca rabbi who openly supported a democrat supported biden now that is a fish week after month after year the assumption expectation sometimes even the demand of support for trump has been manifest throughout much of our community it's in our schools our kiddushes our shabbos tables and emails whatsapps and social media discussions among community and family members it's splashed across the publication websites cater to in many ways represent our community but leadership level two rabbi's leaders and institutions across the orthodox spectrum have made their trump in this election for uh support for trump clear others are more subtle than flat out endorsements they'll say a from jew has to show hakara satov to our revered president as one recently put it or here are the candidates i plan to vote for another publicly when aguda suddenly advertises to its georgia parishioners register to vote because the fate of the senate depends on your votes there's no need for them to specify which candidates they want you to vote for because it's already perfectly clear and even rabbi is an institution to profess political neutrality make their views clear in other ways by jokes told and assumptions made by the choices of which issues to discuss and not discuss by those given a platform to speak and that those not handed the mic who is within and who is without the who is beyond the pale is ben shapiro in or is he out similarly when a rabbi frames a decision whether to support trump as all the good he's done versus a relatively minor flaw such as uncouth rhetoric and composition this framing itself communicates his view that trump's actual policies and the real damage they've caused to real people in the real world are of relatively small consequence extreme demonstrations demonstrations of loyalty to a political candidate never happened in our community for other candidates yet with rabbinic participation and approval for trump we've had parades through moderate through major orthodox communities popular from singers rallying entire summer camps and pro-trump songs and a well-known orthodox synagogue organization turning its annual fundraising dinner into a naga rally summing it up in the orthodox in the lakewood scoop um pr and professional pro and political pro ezra friedlander wrote that some pro-trump behavior in the orthodox community this past year was to use his words fault-like behavior reminiscence of demagoguery messianic framing president in idolatrous proportions the point where the image of our community being led by and consisting of active proponents of such idolatry became widespread those are strong words peter landry added that this inhibited trump's followers from assessing his opponent joe biden and hence my article indeed a teacher of american civics in history at a in brooklyn yeshiva wanted to present an orthodox jewish case for biden to his students he told me that my article was the only one that he could find this brings me to a second reason why i wrote as a jewish leader and it demonstrates to the biden campaign what is now the incoming biden administration and the democratic party as a whole that they have true outspoken friends in our orthodox world a leading orthodox magazine recently published a symposium on whether institutional orthodoxy had blundered by putting its money on one losing horse and burnt its bridges i thought that for the sake of our collective political interests it was vital that one orthodox leader write a substantial unabashedly pro-abiding article barack hashem the campaign had heard me as did numerous other powerful voices throughout the democratic party in new york on capitol hill and elsewhere improving the chances that our community's policy perspectives will be taken seriously and amir hashem acted on in what is what will in fact be a democratic presidential uh term a third reason i wrote was to spotlight issues and principles that concern orthodox political liberals but that are rarely part of orthodox public discourse this matters because political liberals comprise a good chunk of our communities across the orthodox american spectrum the issue the issues that animate them overlap with but also differ from the is important republicans one of those differences is the emphasis on the importance of empirical reality and the hard sciences at the very basis of civil discourse and policy prior to the 2016 election we are sierra bunyan passed the resolution emphasizing exactly that point and yet four years later the us is in the middle of a full-blown epistemological crisis where much of a political a powerful powerful political party and supporters have become detached from reality our people which have suffered from so many lies in high places for so long knows that the opposition to facts and reality is a political red flag and our torah tells us that it's a peopling deeply troubling religious problem too and yet today many in our community including prominent leaders subject objectively objective falsehoods which is rejected and debunked conspiracy theories reject relating to the election magical thinking and erroneous thinking about covid lies about vaccines and a broad failure to recognize climate change it's devastating ongoing and future impacts on the united states israel and all of human civilization the second important issue for political liberals is to support the principal institutions and norms that define and strengthen american democracy that have made america one of the most welcoming places in the world in world history for jews and every other and every other group which our authoritarian and temperate presidents has relentlessly attacked for four years my articles discuss these and other morally urgent issues as well these foundational issues cut at the heart of unshakable values for us as americans and as jews and they are the fourth reason that i wrote they rightly preceded any specific policy question this is why this year's election was in fact not merely rhetorically the most important election of our lifetimes they are what made trump's presidency so dangerous and utterly suey generous in demanding rabbinic rejection my fifth and final sixth reasons for speaking out as a rabbi were also a response to the orthodox community's overall message which has been loud and clear that one's religious identity and political affiliation are should be or must be intertwined its most extreme form entered by large numbers of orthodox jews that message is supporting democrats means that one is in non-orthodox perhaps not even jewish anti-israel socialist who is disloyal to his people he loves anti-semites the extreme version was demonstrated by personally threatening reactions to my public support for wait for it the democratic nominee for president of the united states i was called a rodave a mosair a mashumad and especially lovely all who concur with renegade barry cornblau if they were in the hanukkah era they would have been executed by the orthodox maccabees for these things i filed a police report of course this intertwining that's presently part of pro-trump orthodox culture is barack hashem usually less extreme but even more moderate intertwining still damages orthodoxy and orthodox jews the intertwining damage to orthodoxy's religious fabric was my fifth reason to write as a rabbi some orthodox jews are true maga supporters and voted for their man with augusto others held their nose but regardless many no longer bother to forcefully force light forthrightly and regularly draw address the meaning name calling and denigration of opponents in the violation of the tsalam elohim inherent in every human being his incessant lies in the violation of the dvar sheker to which which applies to him as well as to us and the illegal unethical and immoral behavior of his administration whatever the reasons for omitting or downplaying moral and ethical concerns in the public sphere we are left with at least four heavy price tags one in the public sphere these omissions etc leave the impression that orthodoxy doesn't care about these issues damaging our religion's moral authority our prophets are have to wrote rail against political corruption yet we are silent two for our own characters our omissions and down playings inevitably erode our internal sense that the highest jewish ideal as native wrote in his introduction to safer bereshits is to be ashar a person who is straight who has unquestioned integrity and seeks the welfare of all humanity three the vast majority of american jewry do not observe halacha and they are politically liberal we wish for them to join our communities and observe yet our intertwining intentionally or otherwise has created an enormous socio-political barrier finally some trump supporting congregants now hear a rabbi's bread-and-butter devartera about ethical or immoral improvements as implicitly political and so this torah is not taught or it's carefully edited or khalilah is discussed my sixth and final most painful reason to speaking out a rabbi was the damage this intertwining of politics and religion has inflicted upon thousands and thousands of flesh and blood orthodox human beings who are political liberals blaring forth from the community that defines the core of their identity this intertwining has been is and will long continue to be a profoundly painful human and religious crisis with at least five tangible effects people feel ostracized and alienated and have been maligned at chabas and yumtov tables among their neighbors and friends their own communities and schools some have actually moved out of communities they once loved or wish they could second some have actually felt relief that the pandemic has provided them with legitimate reasons to stop coming to shul alilah third and tragically political tensions are damaging familiar relationships colleagues and i have spent countless hours helping people with these issues fourth politically liberal orthodox jews have become an uncomfortable dating knowing that the other person will likely hold a political view that they um firmly a a political view that they cannot abide fifth and finally many are now uncomfortable with the word orthodox itself because of its close public association with trump throughout media in the united states and the western world they wonder how they're co-religionists and seemingly their religion itself has lost its way but as a rabbi and a jewish leader i wrote to give voice to all these people and oh boy oh boy did i hear from them yeshivish and modern men women rabbis lay people young and old they told me that my articles gave them tremendous religious by telling them that they are not crazy for opposing trump their orthodox jewish ideals are erlech and they are not they are not outside of the camp of orthodoxy for supporting biden and democrats thank you thank you barry for your very catching words um um reverend so i want to make one observation before we go on first of all uh i give you more time if you need because we're sort of a little bit unbalanced in our timing i do want to that's an important point here goldberg is not representing the trump side that's not the way we focus on our debate this evening reverend made the observation that north korea should not really support either um rivari you spoke very passionately of course about why you felt this was a unique situation and we appreciate that but i want to make it clear to our viewers uh wherever they may be that this is not a debate between rabbi goldberg combo as whom you should vote for someone should not ascertain the baby goldberg even by proxy is representing either of the candidates i'll give i have a question but i guess maybe in fairness to the way the time worked out let me go break i give you a chance to respond a little bit first uh i guess the focus i really wanted to be focusing on is what are the scenarios you feel you speak out but perhaps in light of the way the time has gone let you just respond okay thank you very much crystal i knew i should have had a picture of dr blau on my wall my wife's principal i could have gotten some more time out of it um roberto you packed a lot in so i'm going to try to remember what i wanted to respond essentially as i anticipated your core argument although you broke it down in many segments is this time it's different that was the core argument it's different because of the jewish media it's different because of other rabbis taking stands it's different because of people who feel like victims who don't have a voice it's different because a certain candidate is so egregious and crosses the line it's different because the other candidate needs to know that they're orthodox jews who like him you give a long list of reasons why this time is different so the first response i have is everyone will always give that explanation of why this time is different before the election with president obama there were some who felt very strongly that president obama um went to the church of a blatantly anti-american anti-israel pastor that he was going to enter a deal that would embolden a nation that posed an existential threat to israel and many other arguments that were legitimate arguments and they thought that they were to quote you morally urgent and then though i shared some of those concerns i uh not to flex but at a conversation with then senator obama about his sitting in the pews of reverend wright which his response was very different than what he wrote right now in his autobiography but i shared many of those concerns and even then i didn't endorse a candidate from the pulpit because even though i thought of commercially morally urgent questions i thought it was inappropriate and wrong for a rabbi particularly a pulpit rabbi in front of a congregation or sophisticated well-read thoughtful to tell them how they should think and for whom they should vote every election are morally urgent issues on the ballot for us as observant jews uh among them i won't i won't say forever when it's obligated to be number one but the safety security and well-being of the one and only jewish state a place of refuge should we ever need it is among the most morally urgent issues and one can stream almost any election and the candidates and the policies at stake as being morally urgent well as i anticipated your answer essentially is this time was different and though therefore i agree with you in principle i had to speak out but here's my answer i too am frustrated i too am bothered i'm deeply offended and i'm worried about the worship of president trump while i have tremendous gratitude and appreciation for great things that he has done i think that segments not all they're the loudest segments but i think they're far from the majority of the orthodox community even those who voted for him i think don't fall prey to this issue of worship jewish media is an important topic distraction from ours we're talking about rabbanim not jewish media and natural media personalities so i think that if you and i are equally concerned that we're living in a divisive and polarized political world within the orthodox community and there aren't legitimate reasonable different conclusions that you can vote in either direction for different candidates the answer is not to take a political position the answer is not to tell people who they should and must vote for that's only contributing to the fundamental problem the answer is to get up and say that we love a fellow these are reasonable legitimate conclusions to come to one should never judge come to your decision and we won't tolerate we won't allow an environment we want to allow a climate in which people call each other names marginalized people um discriminate against fellow jews for voting differently we should be preaching the notion of when shiva palmer that's our job as rabbis the moment that we take a position and tell others who as you originally headline said who they must vote for i personally am offended that you told me who i must vote for who are you to tell me who i must vote for i don't know how your congregants felt about that but i don't think you're entitled to tell me who i must or even who i should vote for you could tell me who you think and who you're going to vote for but the headline itself i found offensive i think taking that position contributes to the problem it's not the solution when i wrote my article explaining why i don't think rabbi should be endorsing candidates i too heard from a wide ranging and a large group of people i don't know as many less or more than you did but i too got feedback we'll always get it from those who agree and don't feel they have a voice but here's what i thought was the interesting thing i spent a lot of time wordsmithing my article in order to not signal to anyone who i personally am voting for and the fascinating thing is how many emails i got from those who were incredulous i could have voted in one direction and those who are outraged i could have voted in the other and that made me know i did a good job the fact that i couldn't indicate clearly whom i voted for and that people thought in both directions positioned me to be able to take this position tonight and tonight i haven't indicated who i voted for as i say if you want a cup of coffee with me privately socially distanced and with masks and safely i'm happy to share as a private citizen my thoughts but never as a rabbi to me it's an abuse of the pulpit and it's abuse of the rabbitic pen i think it's a mistake i also think that to position yourself as the lone voice of an orthodox rabbi supporting biden is somewhat disingenuous a group of great orthodox jewish thinkers wrote an article called sinai not washington in which they rebuked the orthodox establishment and said don't put your eggs in one basket rabbi avi shafrin who is the spokesperson of aguda has clearly indicated his liberal bent under president obama which he took heat for his support and again in the build up to this election and while i don't question that you are a minority or that you felt it was important to give others a voice the notion that it's a lone voice and there was no one else speaking out i don't think is accurate i don't think is fair i don't think is true and i think that the others the others are thinkers and they have positions with organizations they're fundamentally different than a rabbi of a congregation a rabbi of a pulpit a rabbi of members who need to be able to trust us confide in us believe us and for us not to be able to to alienate them and drive them away and i want to end by asking you a question i don't know if that's okay i have to ask our moderator but i wonder you felt that this is a morally urgent time morally urgent policies morally urgent circumstances morally urgent candidate and therefore you had no choice but to speak out but you were among the signature signatories to a letter to young israel when young israel's leadership felt that it was morally urgent for young israel to weigh in on something you and some colleagues wrote a letter saying that young israel shouldn't be in the business of weighing in on politics and i wonder what changed why were you a voice of opposition and protest to the young israel leadership or movement weighing in on politics then when they thought something was morally urgent but you've decided now that it's morally urgent and if the answer is that the leadership of young israel didn't pull the young israel members first did you pull your congregants before you wrote the article and before you as a rabbi who i'm sure in the byline said you're not writing it as the rabbi of the congregation but nonetheless you can't divorce yourself from that position how would you have felt if the rca officers took a vote and decided this candidate is morally urgent we endorse them and we therefore came out with that so i think it's a very slippery slope a very dangerous line and i think that while all of your arguments may be true i'm not even disagreeing with them necessarily what i'm saying is the conclusion because of all those arguments is why we as rabbi should get up and preach love openness warmth respect disagreeing agreeably and allowing people to come to their own legitimate and reasonable conclusions without judgment marginalizing calling names that i think will contribute to the solution not contributing to the problem by ourselves taking a position for a specific candidate for barry i guess what i'll do is allow you to respond and then i have a question that i want to ask both of you separately so rebecca i'm going to speak very briefly because i know that i speak longer before very briefly uh the piece that i the pieces that i wrote um is it better now yes okay the pieces that i wrote um i did in no way shape or for share shared from my bma or to my community um i published them in new jersey um and i live in queens i in no time ever projected that point of view directly to my community members um um and indeed my my community is such that i was quite confident that uh whatever feedback i would get i would get directly i wasn't really concerned about it and that's why i chose to speak not in some hypothetical rule but diplomacy was in a position to speak yes i was um in terms of the national accounts of young israel i never even sent a link to my article to my show nothing zero um in terms of national accounts young israel my position uh and that of um two dozen other young israel schools nearly a fifth of its members uh was that indeed they had not consulted um and that was widely understood to be the case with the national accounts of young israel uh that that's an internal national accounts of young israel issue um if indeed it had consulted then let it speak like the orthodox union speaks let it speak like the rca speaks and it will be accountable to all of its members uh with an internal process that makes sense uh they've since heavily pulled back from all of that and uh there's been a lot of change okay thank you both are you robert are you disappointed that the rca the o.u and young israel didn't come out and did to tell people that they should vote for biden um no i don't think that those large organizations ought to have made that statement um i never thought about it actually um but no i don't think they ought to have made that statement i think that the problems um that i illuminate uh highlighted are way before the question of endorsement to me the issue here is not endorsement but pre-political issues how did we get to a situation where we're so politically entwined uh with with political affiliation voting and religious identity and to that end i think that there's three projects that need to happen i'm happy to elaborate on them but i'm concerned about the time well let me do the following that your article untwined them or further intertwined them by a rabbit endorsing a candidate so rabbis can i tell you can i deject for a moment so let me ask one final question to each of you uh separate questions um and then i'll have a moment of summing up as i mentioned to my two haberman before we started this evening my mother taught me a famous maxim when i assumed the rabbit always wishing leaving them wishing you had said more than said less and i want to be careful of our time although i think the discussion this evening has been incredibly instructive and i've been looking at the comments coming in and i think many people are paying close attention to your points of view and your wise words so i guess let's pick up on the point that you've just been raising the two of you both been raising in the nature of the intertwining between uh politics and religious identity so i guess for a vephra in your sense how do you really address moral issues that are related to politics while staying apolitical how what is the formula for doing that effectively and i guess for a very if you're saying that they are too intertwined how do you prepare to decouple them the question for both of you reverend the question to you and then reverie the question to you i thank you i alluded to it before i think that our job is uh we should raise the issues the moral issues but in the abstract we should raise them conceptually we should raise them in broad strokes about what we should care about why we should care about it what the torah informs us on those issues and then leave it to our members to determine which candidate which party which policy will best align itself with and follow up on what we as torah jews assuming that we can even consolidate to such a narrow thing to say this is what the torah wants the torah itself is so broad and so diverse and allows for such diverse opinions that i'm not even sure that we can absolutely say with certainty what the torah wants on a given issue so i think first of all honestly i think that our community and the greater jewish community has significant issues for us to be addressing about feeling hashem in our lives leading inspired jewish lives jewish continuity assimilation into marriage our own graduates within the orthodox and modern orthodox community continuing to lead inspired lives there are no shortage of topics which are critically urgent for us to talk about that others are not talking about you're not going to turn on fox cnn the wall street journal new york times not even ben shapiro is going to talk about those issues which are of critical importance and are the primary responsibility for rabbis to talk about they need us to talk about them and i think the moment we start talking about those other issues we're unlikely to change minds and even if we think no no i'm just talking about immigration that we came from mitzrayim and we have to be sensitive immigration is important the people who want to hear it one way we'll hear it one way you want to hear it the other way we'll hear it the other way and no one will hear what we're saying so who did we really speak to so i would avoid the hot button words immigration and climate control and environment not because they're not important but because from the pulpit there are many other things that we and we alone are going to speak about or should be speaking about or need to try to move the needle on and i don't think we should be using our time and our voice on those other issues which are unlikely to change opinions if we are because we think they're critically important then i would speak about the issue and not about the people and let our congregants who i trust and who are wise and smart and most of them are smarter than i to be able to come to their own conclusions barry back to the question that i asked you hot if you concerned about the coupling how do we decouple the two the religious identity and political issues um so the first piece is um that unfortunately i felt the need to push back um against the public discourse i think that's the first step um in decoupling to say that there is actually another perspective some if a teacher in brooklyn literally doesn't have any other perspective to share um then that right there is a problem um so that's number one um i wholly agree with um almost all the priorities that you mentioned and in terms of the uh that robert mentioned um and um and the importance of of avoiding political uh type language and and key buzzwords um in in rabbinic speech in general um um regarding the broader issue of disentangling um now now that there's been a big pushback the people have been felt validated um which was a big deal um i think that indeed we have to step back to pre-political issues about what values and what morals and what positions that we collectively as the orthodox community are taking um there are large numbers of jews who are very dissatisfied uh with the sorts of things that we're prioritizing in our public face really nearly we have a public face and to uh with to to to withdraw rabbinic action from that area it doesn't make any sense we indeed need to talk about the broad values and eventually and not not specific policies um but which values which even issues are we talking about uh those things themselves are things that um are subject to political dispute and we need to talk about all of them okay so the truth of the appreciate both of your comments are this evening um i think i'll make two observations and then if you want to have one last comment i will give you the floor then i'd like to sum up one observation that i think is first of all it's been a very spirited discussions at this point and i want to re-emphasize that both individuals are coming representing their viewpoints with great deal of dignity and articulating them with great clarity and at the end of the day what was very interesting to me was to hear both of you say that the key really is barry felt this was a unique exception riverfrom felt that it was not wired the case but both of them felt the key issue was really to talk about the underlying issues and that really is what both of you felt very strongly and i know both of you were doing your own pulpits and both of you do together in a different context i thought that was very important and a very light note and one of the comments uh you both figured this out offline there was one gentleman who wrote in that he was the only person who is was is a member of both congregations the two of you have to figure out who that congregant is who is the cognigan of both of yours uh do either if you want to have one last comment rev goldberg one last comment i started with you i'll give you the chance to end any one last comment you'd like to add thank you first of all thank you i've been again thank you to rabbi streichler and and most of all thank you to a barry and i want to end by saying this my heart goes out when you describe um sort of how lonely or isolated you felt or the need to be validated or to validate others that makes me sad that's a that's a sad description of where the orthodox world is that people who hold certain positions feel so marginalized or isolated and i don't want to minimize that in any way i think it's important for us to work towards that goal of of ensuring that nobody feels that way and and while we may disagree on what is the best strategy or way to uncouple or unwind the politics and religion and enable diverse opinions within the jewish community within our shules i do want to say that i feel bad both for what you described of how you felt certainly the names that you were called which are horrifically unjustified intolerable unacceptable and anyone who would reduce themselves to calling you such a name has no business contributing to any of these conversations so i want to a very uh very important to say that to you and as i said i hope that we can work together as this discussion not a debate ultimately we share the same perspective which is a goal of ensuring that our schools our communities are places that people can hold diverse views and it's important to diversify and hold diverse views and allow people to reach them in a legitimate way barry i'll leave rob effrom with the last word so i want to thank all i thank my two esteemed colleagues and good friends for barry campbell and from goldberg and i thank everybody also i also want to thank rabbi straughler for really being the brains behind the operations editing up again robbie carrapkin for your leadership as the head of the rca uh i think both with goldberg of cornblau i'm not putting i'm not flashing your uh your contact information on the screen but i'm sure both you would be happy to have cups of coffee social distance with anyone who'd like to continue with both of them these are really two of the leaders of our community we're very fortunate to hear from you both thank you all have a wonderful evening live the top