#93: Behind the Bima - Dovi Safier & Yehuda Geberer

From Boca Raton Florida, Rabbis Ephraim Goldberg, Philip Moskowitz, and Josh Brody are taking you behind the Bima. The BRS Rabbis schmooze about contemporary issues and talk to special guests who give a behind-the-scenes look at how they got to where they are and what keeps them going. Welcome to Behind the Bima. Good evening. It is Rabbi Ephraim Goldberg. It's Wednesday. I'm joined by my colleague and dear friend Rabbi Josh Brody on location, as always, on the road, but nothing holds him back from joining us. And we're here to take you behind the Bima. Behind the Bima. Rabbi Brody, where are you? So right now we're actually in the holy city of Modi'in. Never been here. I've only passed through, but I know that you have some family here. God willing, we'll see them soon. Very special city. Incredible uh incredible people. And um it's part of a very exciting trip that we're on right now. So we'll see how that goes. Modi'in, Israel. We'll hear more about that in a moment, but first, a thank you to our sponsors. Very grateful to Morris and Rachel Rochel Tabush of Brooklyn, New York. Sponsored in honor of Mori Litwack for the amazing work he does for the Yeshiva schools across the country. Mori's a good friend. He does incredible work. Uh Teach Florida, Teach New York, the OU's efforts to help uh help day schools and Yeshivas get some funding from the government. Millions of dollars are being poured in. It's really incredible incredible work. I remember people were cynical at the beginning of it. Like, "Yeah, as if we're going to get money. It's never going to happen." Millions and millions of dollars. In fact, the state of Florida is the biggest supporter of Jewish education in Florida more than any particular philanthropists. And I'm sure the same is true in New York. So thank you to the Tabush for sponsoring in honor of Mori. Mori should have continued strength as he does his great work. And this evening's Behind the Bima is also sponsored Yechiel and I are sponsoring in honor of Judy and Lester Henner with tremendous gratitude. They recently did a huge favor for us and we're so grateful to the Henners. Uh Judy and Lester are fantastic people. They are kind and generous and giving and a little bit outrageous and funny. In fact, uh Lester did the favor and then I was with him. I said, "Lester, I can't possibly thank you enough." You know what he said? Give it a shot. Give it a try. He's hilarious. So thank you, Lester. Thank you, Judy. They're good friends and really really grateful to them. So tell us, Rabbi Brody, what brings you to Israel? Uh we're doing a little scouting, little scouting mission. You know, God willing, in a few years, we don't know exactly when we're going to we're going to be here. We're Hashem, I guess we're all going to be here, but we're just looking at communities. So we're we're taking the time to meet meet lots of people to people on the ground. And um I'll tell you incredible story which just happened. We were in uh Tzfat, the holy city of Tzfat. And we're walking down the uh the artist uh colony. And there was one picture that just caught my attention. So I I walked into the store and you you know there's many many stores on the street. And uh this guy sees we're wearing like a Miami Dolphins hat. My kids were wearing Miami. He says, "Oh, you're from Miami?" I said, "No, we're from Boca." So he said, "Oh my gosh, my sister is moving to Boca. She's not uh you know, so so much part of the religious community. And um she's going to a she's going to be moving to BRS West." She says, "Do you know BRS West?" I said, "Do I know it? Do I know it? We we helped build it. We are we are BRS." Right. He says uh he says, "You're not going to believe this. She's enrolled in in the school. And and uh he's so nervous cuz she doesn't know anyone. She He wants to just make Last night he said, the night before he says he went and he started davening just how can he find a connection for his sister who's moving into our community this summer? He needs us. He needs us to make a connection. We walk in. That's fantastic. He literally fell to the ground. So we made a video for his sister. Said we're going to get in get in touch and I love that story. That goes in my next week I'm going to use that in my Living with the Emunah shear. That is a great Living with the Emunah on Wednesday mornings. We we work and grow in our Emunah and I often read emails I get from people with their own story of Hashgacha Protis, divine providence, how things worked out. So I love that. A guy davens, "Help me. I don't know where it's going to come from. Help me." Boom, he moved meets the Rabbi, one of the Rabbis of BRS. I love it. So then we went right across the street. It was it's the the Machabeh shul, right where Rabbi Yosef Caro is. So Simone and I we ran into the shul. We started davening. Just a little bit of time. This is right right now. That's amazing. And good news for Israel coming out today. Unilever has uh backed down and Ben & Jerry's is no longer boycotting Israel. So that's a big victory. All the pressure that we put to bear on Ben & Jerry's and Unilever and uh calling them out for their hypocrisy and double standard. We had a big rally outside Ben & Jerry's locally here in Delray. If you remember, the Ben & Jerry owner of our local franchise, Jewish guy, he agrees with us. His family in Israel says, "I'll give free ice cream to anyone who comes and rallies against our store." So then come here, rally against Ben & Jerry's and we're proud that we're part of the pressure that was put to bear. And that's really amazing. So that's a victory. Yet again, BDS doesn't work. Boycotts don't work. And if anyone's looking to visit the Ben & Jerry's factory, at least one of the main ones is in this little city it's called Carmey Hanadiv. It's right uh right right down the highway. You have to be there last like Carmey Hanadiv. Got to fill No one really has heard of it, but Got to hear more about that. Sounds familiar. Got it. Familiar. Want to remind everyone also, please sign up for our one-on-one campaign. We miss our beloved Rabbi Moskowitz. He's of course with his daughter Esti Esther Tila bas Aryeh Tzipora. A dollar a day of tzedakah and a minute a day of learning. You know, the minute a day of learning with these WhatsApp groups, Rabbis from around the world once once a day, 1 minute a day. Everyone's pretty much kept to it, 1 minute, 60 seconds or so. And they've been fantastic. Great insights. So you join 1 minute a day, everyone has. A dollar a day, everybody has. And who knows if your dollar a day, your minute a day could be the difference to help Esti Moskowitz. brsonline.org/1and1. brsonline.org/ the number one and one. Please join the campaign and continue to make that difference. While you were away, Rabbi Brody, here on my toy circle, we had a little unfortunate little bit of action. Our friends, when I say friends, I mean not friends, at the Defense League uh drove around in the cloak of darkness in the middle of the night and deposited some hate packages in the driveways of members. Um terrible anti-Semitic tropes, slogans, uh accusations in little plastic bags weighed down with popcorn kernels. Uh I don't know if you're supposed to pop the kernels. I don't know. Yeah. That's like their signature. How do we know who this is? Oh, it's the same guys that did it the last time. Popcorn people. It's the popcorn people. It was startling. You know, members or members' kids who opened the door and found that in their driveway, startling. Startling. So the story could be about the hate. The story could be about these terrible people and what they did, but there's another angle to the story which I I just found out about last night, which is that the deputies of our Palm Beach Sheriff's Office who came and responded, you know what they did? They didn't just write the report. They ran to all the other driveways of people who weren't awake yet or didn't go outside yet, and they collected them so people wouldn't have to experience the startle, the trauma of seeing that package in their driveway. So you could focus on the hate of the people who put the packages there, or you could focus and see the love of the deputies in the Sheriff's Department's office, Palm Beach Sheriff's Department's office, who went around collecting it. And I I think we should focus on the love, not the hate. Confront the hate. Stop the hate. Call out the hate. But really hold on to the love because, you know, this the the hate can make you lose faith in humanity. But when you focus on the love, it restores your faith in humanity. So our Palm Beach Sheriff's Office, huge shout-out to them again. Big thank you to them. They always run towards the problems, not away from it. They're great and they help us. They protect us. And we're so so grateful for them. I thought maybe cuz I I saw the picture, it was a little about Disney, how so many Jews are involved in Disney. I thought maybe I'd see Saul Blinkoff, even though I realized he doesn't work for Disney. It's DreamWorks or something else. I thought maybe these guys maybe caught him on the last episode of Behind the Bima, such a popular episode. Right. Maybe that they wanted to react. Yeah. We've had tremendous feedback on that episode. Saul Blinkoff was amazing, inspiring, insightful. You want to get a little inside look at what it means to be animation producer, director, really award-winning films. He's accomplished and and his priorities, his values were Torah. He made maybe the most impassioned um compelling argument for you learning Torah every day uh that I've heard in a long time. So if you if you haven't heard last week's episode yet, check it out. You could you could hear we're we're closing in on a hundred. And uh actually had someone come to me who wants to sponsor the hundredth episode and says, "I'm all in to sponsor. Make it big. Do whatever you need to that hundredth episode Behind the Bima. Make it big." So So we got those works in the plans for that. Excited for that. Uh we're closing in on that, but if you haven't heard the first 90 something, go back and listen that because of us. We're just a bunch of guys bantering around, but our guests bring on We should bring on like what they call a super fan. You know, who's the Behind the Bima super fan? We could just test them on their trivia. You know, and let's see who who comes out as the greatest Behind the Bima super fan. Yeah. We've got a lineup of great guests coming up, but we're always open to suggestions. So if you want, rate review in your review, include who you'd like to see, who you'd like to have interviewed. Tonight our two great guests. And I'll tell you, they don't go on podcasts. They've been invited to a lot, but we have a relationship and and they appreciate what we do. And um we're very glad that they're coming on. Dovi Safier and Yehuda Geber, they partner writing articles for Mishpacha every week. They are two I would call them amateur, but they're professionals, but they don't have credential degrees in Jewish history, but they're brilliant, they're well-read, they're experts, self-taught. And uh in Yehuda's case, he's made a career out of it. He's a tour guide throughout Europe and in Israel. Jewish history soundbites. He's got podcast, one of the few that I listen to when I drive or when I'm going somewhere. And the Dovi also, accomplished businessman, professional, set aside time to pursue his his passion, his hobby, and uh what they produce is so inspiring. Um the articles and and who they cover and how they cover, the angles they cover, they're really really great and we're excited that they they came on behind the Beamer. Everybody, I know you have a favorite article of theirs. I love the Rabbi Teitz article. First of all, it speaks to a lot about what his his innovation was, which is you know, a forerunner for uh Beyond the Beamer. Uh Rabbi Rabbi Teitz speaking to 200,000 people, WEVD. Used technology. Yeah. Yeah. Ahead of his time. Most of Einstein endorsed it and you know, you had Rav Aaron Cutler endorsing it. They didn't understand the technology, but Rabbi Teitz was an innovator. Right. It was controversial. Now, to say that a rabbi talk to Marah using technology is like the least controversial thing, but then to use the radio, there were people gunning for him. But he had big guns back then. even even so interesting about the article? They were talking about how he he specifically wanted to go on the WEVD station because it was known as a socialist audience. He said, "I can get more bang for my buck speaking to this group rather than let's say another group which may be you know, an easier target." Right. So. Interesting. By the way, as an aside, Yehuda and Dovi are both big fans of a previous guest of ours, Moshe Francesa. They follow and they love him. These guys, they know Jewish history, they know a lot of Torah, they also happen to know sports. So I got a little inside scoop, Moshe Francesa is not going to be joining us tonight, but he's not retired. He's going to be coming back soon, so everybody should get ready for the great Moshe Francesa. So, we're very very excited to be able to welcome Yehuda and Dovi, grateful that they did this podcast, and we know that you're going to enjoy this conversation. Without any further ado, here they are. We are here, we're privileged to be here and to be able to have a great conversation with Dovi Safier and Yehuda Geber, who are partners in crime and bringing Jewish history to us in so many ways, regular columnists Mishpacha magazine, Jewish history soundbites, and so much more. It's a privilege to be together. I've spent time with each of you online, Dovi a little bit offline, but to be able to actually have this conversation the way relationships are meant to be, somewhat face-to-face. It's really a great privilege and honor, so thank you for agreeing to go behind the Beamer together. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Let's start out with a Let's start out with a big mazel tov to both of you because this week were the awards for the AJPA, American Jewish Press Association, in which the two of you cleaned up. Two boys with yarmulkes took the lead and cleaned up with awards uh from this association. So, mazel tov to you, and it's a beautiful kiddush Hashem. Talk to us for a minute about what that was like, what it's all about, and how do you feel um in your role and walking away with those awards? Which awards did you win and which are you most proud of? Um we won four awards. Baruch Hashem, I had the privilege to be in attendance. Thank you to my wonderful mother, wife, and daughter Chava, who came along to uh cheer for me at the incredible Georgia Aquarium, which is definitely worth going to see. It's it's a sight sight to behold, built with Jewish money from Bernie Marcus. Um and uh in the ballroom there, uh in attendance, so I'd say it was about 120, 130 people representing different uh Jewish media outlets across the across the spectrum. Uh from across America, news and PR people from around the world, I guess. Um and Baruch Hashem, we had the privilege to win four awards. Um I would say the the one that really uh we owe you and your Rebbetzin Yocheved thanks for was a piece that we did last Pesach called Eyes That Saw Angels. And this was a really a passion piece that Yehuda and I talked about doing for a while, and it probably developed during the time we met when we were learning together in the Mir Yeshiva, where we used to go visit older people. Not people that had necessarily gone through the war, a lot of them did, but people that remembered what life was like before the war, which is really something that for our generation is really hard to to to to get a first-hand to get first-hand accounts of. Um and one of and your wife was kind enough to help us uh arrange an interview. I remember I reached out to a few of our bottom across the country, um and you were the first one to respond, and you said, "I have this fantastic idea. You You You You You and your Rebbetzin, your Rebbetzin especially, should join the interview." Um and we met this incredible person, uh Martin Juravits, um who passed away short time after we did the interview, a few months later. And it was really It was really one of the most special experiences I've ever had. Um him singing songs that he learned sitting together with the Satmar Rebbe, um and uh telling us about uh meeting of Sholom Lizer, and uh just it was otherworldly, to be honest. And and and and there there I would say probably count on your hand the amount of Yidden that were around or still around that experienced things like that. Um and you know, it's it's really the last chance our generation has to get a hold of these people. And if you know any of them, um go, you know, record them, go sit and talk to them, bring your children, and let us know. We'll come speak to them as well, anywhere they are, because it really is to be told, for sure. This is uh you know, like the Abie Rotenberg goes song song goes, it's really the last chance to have those memories. And and really, it's so important, and and every one of us will regret the ones we did not speak to and meet. And really, that generation is is is disappearing very very fast. And and the the s'chus we had to do that piece where we interviewed Mr. The Bleemans from Toronto, uh Mr. Bleeman remembered the Mayor Shapiro. Uh Mrs. Bleeman remembered Sarah Schneier. Uh it was uh we we had uh Rabbi Nachum Greenblatt, who recently passed away. Um we had another fellow another Rabbi Nachum Winkler, who learned in Kamenetz and Radin, remembered the Chofetz Chaim and in the Mir, escaped was part of the escape in in Denmark during the war, but it was absolutely It was something that was so meaningful to us to be a part of. So, what category did that win in? Um I think it was uh for for the best in senior writing. Best in senior writing. Writing about Yehuda, you share is that also your uh most proud uh piece that you won awards for? Yeah, and it was it was a it was a complicated piece as far as journalism is concerned, and it was an important piece as far as history is concerned. Um because we took a diverse uh view. We got um people the the elderly people that we spoke with from all over the world, and they each gave a different angle of that slice of Jewish history from the last century. And it was really you know, Mr. Juravits is just 1/7 or 1/8 of of of that article. And uh we brought to we we kind of wove this tapestry of these in-person interviews uh from that that world, and really connected the past to the present, not just from one particular era and and location, but from everywhere. And uh one of the best pieces we ever did together, and I'm really proud that that uh that it won. So. I was Deserved to win. Yeah, deserved to win, and and it was fantastic, and uh we're grateful that you gave at least for our community, it was Mr. Juravits passed away this year, we're coming up on his first year at site, and the fact that you captured and interviewed and it meant the world to him to be remembered. I think that generation and the people who saw those angels are desperate to be remembered, not from an ego standpoint, but what they saw was so special that they just desperately wanted to be remembered, and and you gave that gift to those people that you interviewed. So, let's take a step back, you know, it connects to this awards a little bit. Um correct me if I'm wrong. Um I don't know that either of you have degrees um or or um an education specifically in history or in journalism. And yet here you are winning awards at a uh event for journalists writing about history. So, how important is it? What what is the credibility of one? And I'm I'm saying this not negatively, but I'm saying this in an admirable with great admiration as somebody who's a follower. I love reading your articles, and I love you to listening to your your Jewish history uh talks, and you're both compelling, and you both um really are able to capture complex periods of history and personalities and times, and communicate it in a way which is digestible, in a way which is uh interesting, informative, entertaining, inspiring. You both have this gift, and we'll get to how you have it together. How do people collaborate who have these gifts? Um how how you're able to coordinate that together, what exactly you do. But even before we get to that, do you ever wonder, does anyone ever challenge you, "You're not historians. You don't have PhDs. You don't have You don't have credentials. You don't have abbreviations next to your name. So, how do you position yourselves as historians or as journalists when technically you don't have the classical criteria for either?" I think that it's a very good question. I question it myself all the time. I I I I also sometimes I'm hesitant to use the term historian. I I do for marketing purposes, but you know, so you know, I'm an aspiring historian and um you know, a historian by hobby and by career, um but definitely it's not I've never tried to pass off credentials I don't have. In other words, I'm not trying to pretend someone who I'm not, and not an academic historian, and maybe one day I will be. I'm still, you know, I'm working it. Um, on the side. Hopefully we'll get there one day. Um, the idea is that we're passionate about it and it's a hobby that kind of evolved into a career for me full time, for Dovi it's still on the side. Um, and and the that, you know, being able to give that over what you have, you have some knowledge, you have that passion, you have that fire and you feel so feel the importance that has value also and, you know, even without even without the official credentials and we do the best we can and we're definitely not trying to pretend to be academics and, you know, real full-fledged historians out there which we're not. Well, you do a great job of it. Dovi, hold on one second. I just because I I want to just clarify, God forbid I wasn't saying that in a in a negative fashion. I was actually pointing it out in a sort of positive way which is, you know, it all comes down to what you view the role of history and as academics, you know, you may be trying to transmit the good, the bad, the ugly accurately. There's a science and a methodology to it. And and what the two of you are doing I think is using history or bringing us back into history to inspire and elevate us in the present. So, maybe it's a different view of what the role of history or the purpose of the study of history is which you don't necessarily need the same credentials that you would need academically in order to tap into this other purpose of what history is about. So, Dovi, go ahead. I I would just go back to your last question quickly and I think there's a story that that kind of illustrates the way I feel pretty well. You could name your favorite early I don't know who the story actually happened with, but it's said over about many different people. Could use a a Gabriel Ze'ev Margolis as maybe the subject of the story, but there's a rabbi who comes from Europe in the early 20th century and after a short while somebody comes over and sees this huge sign painted outside his house in Yiddish that says Chief Rabbi of the United States of America. And he comes in and he says, "Who named you Chief Rabbi of the United States of America?" So, he looks at him and he says, "Oh, the sign painter." So, we we never actually called ourselves historians. I think that the Mishpacha or whoever coined us gave us that Smicha called us historians, but I think that we aim to do more than just tell stories and to inspire. I think that there are books for those who are looking to be totally inspired. I think I think what we're trying to do is is portray an accurate history um without real negativity, but also with the complete emes. Without without, you know, saying things that are not true. I think all of our stuff is well researched. You know, these longer articles that we write, sometimes it could be 6 months of research to write the story. I'm working on a story I'm not going to say what it is yet for Sukkos that I've been working on for a couple of years. Um, I think it'll be of great interest to you and to and to your listeners and to your rebbeim, but I'm not going to say exactly what it is just yet. Um, and I think that that something that's really nice is that the community of Jewish history, whether it's academics, whether it's quasi academics, whether it's just people like Rabbi Chiel Paretz who lives in Far Rockaway who is a storehouse of information and remembers dates and places and stories and will sit with me for a couple of hours and go through different questions that I have and accurately answer them for me. I think it's really there's a wonderful chemistry that exists. Um, and and Shell Stempfer, Professor Shell Stempfer is someone that's been very good to us. Rabbi Dr. Hillel Goldberg is another person who I I look to for advice and I have I have wonderful mentors. Um, as does Yehuda and and and Yehuda is being maybe perhaps a little modest cuz Yehuda does have a college degree. Um, I am a college dropout proudly college dropout. I just can't sit. I did not last in school, but I prefer to just sit and read books which is what I do a lot of. Um, and I'm constantly I would say training in that I try and go speak to the best and the brightest in the field who make themselves very available. It's really beautiful how they do. I'm constantly reading and I'm trying, you know, trying to fine-tune my game as they say. But I don't call myself a historian. How do you what Let me ask you about this also. What do you think is the role of studying history? Would you make a birchas haTorah on studying history? Is a bittul Torah to read history? Is there a Torah value to history? What's the role of studying history? I think I'll I'll I'll say this. We we wrote pieces about Rabbi Shmuel Rozovsky, the Ponevezh Rosh Yeshiva of Rav Laib Malin Rav Chanan Wasserman and probably not a week goes by where someone doesn't write us or come over to us at a wedding including chashuve roshei yeshiva, rabbanim and say, "I want you to know I was learning a you know, I was learning a shiur from Rav Laib Malin and now I understand who he was and the mesirus nefesh that he went through. You know, to to to to write the shiur or where he said it in Shanghai or he said it on a train to Kobe, Japan, right? Or Rav Chanan was saying his shiurim, you know, with with amidst poverty and they had nothing to eat or he was traveling on a train in America raising money running chidushei Torah with a you know, with a little candle. You know, that changes their perspective on Torah. So, so I would say there is certainly is a I'm I I'm not a posek. You're you're in a better position to say whether it's Torah or not. I think that uh uh the Chazon Ish says that the best the best study of mussar is is the stories of gedolim, if I'm correct. But I think that it's if it's not Torah directly, it's certainly helping people learn Torah and it's inspiring people learn Torah. I think I think that you know, I agree with what what Dovi says. I would add to it though um, there's I'm not I'm I'm not into the whole is it Torah or not Torah thing. I leave it to rabbais uh to pasken whether it's birchas haTorah and whether it I think that there it serves other purposes in a in addition to whether it might be some sort of abstract study of Torah. It's First of all, it's interesting for people who find it interesting. If it it is entertaining and very often. In other words, it's it's another filler enricher of of people's lives um, just like people like sports. No one's going to say that that's Torah, but it, you know, people see value in it as well. Beyond that though, beyond the fact that it's interesting and entertaining, it it it makes us any history, not limited to Jewish history, any history makes us better people as individuals and makes us better society because we have a better understanding of of where we are and where we're going. So, it doesn't have to be Torah um, per se, but studying Jewish history and understanding the trends and meaning I I again, Dovi mentioned the Chazon Ish with with gedolei Yisrael, I would say studying the great immigration which has nothing to do with gedolei Yisrael is just as important. Because we want to understand how we got from point A to point B. We got from the Russian Empire to the United States and what happened to the Jewish communities when they transplanted themselves in the you know, in emerging United States. That's that's important to understanding our identity and who we are. It's important to understand how, you know, Jewish enlightenment and how the political changes in Europe gave Jews emancipation and then the rise of Jewish nationalism then the 19th century and all these incredible changes that that we we went through over just over the past couple of centuries which is primarily what we focused on, but if we take the long view then of course that's increased you know, a thousandfold from the beginning of time, it gives us a much stronger sense of identity. Gives empowers us as individuals and as people to understand who we are and definitely what type of values and legacy we want to give over to our children and our communities and share with others. Walk us through the mechanics of how you collaborate on an article. Whenever I read an article that has two names on it, I always wonder because, you know, I'm somebody who who who writes fairly frequently and if I had to go, you know, I could write an entire piece and then get someone's feedback on it. I have people edit or redline or make suggestions or or nix the whole thing. But the notion of collaborating where you're doing parallel or separate research, who writes which paragraph, who writes which sentence, who writes which section? How do you collaborate on a project on an article? We wonder about the same thing. It's we're we're we're we're we're blessed. I think that we have we have we have great chemistry. Um, we have wonderful shalom bayis the two of us together. Um, and and I think we both know what our strengths and our weaknesses are. Um, Yehuda is certainly better he definitely knows a lot more than me about chassidus. I'm not sure if there's anything I know more more about than him. Maybe sports. But but um, he he you know, I think we both when Yehuda is traveling on his which probably you'll get to later, but Yehuda does a tours across Europe. Sometimes he's, you know, he's MIA for a week. So, that week I'll just cover it completely. Um, and sometimes if I can't cover it or if I have a busy week at work, Yehuda will cover it completely. Um, and then some there's always some kind of collaboration, you know, we both we we review it and make our own changes. And then we have wonderful editors at Mishpacha who then suggest some other changes. But yeah, a weekly column is a real grind and when we can we try and, you know, I would say knock out a few at a time and be be ahead of things if we can. Um, but sometimes like a day like today when our column is due and we basically have it done but we're going to need a you know to to maybe get together on the phone for a few minutes. But Google Docs is an absolutely wonderful tool. It really is and it it's helped us collaborate across the world. Together and and it works. It's worked great. We we recognize our strengths and you know Dovi's a whiz at these exhibits and archives and and finding these stuff and and you know getting the right topic and understanding what the readers like. And I'll be better at you know commentary background some of the you know the text and and I think it actually works very well together. It doesn't seem to be an impeding any of our Not at all. Proof's in the pudding. Proof's in the pudding it's working brilliantly cuz you know it's one of the first things I turn to only things I turn to to read because there's real there's content and value and it's as you said it's very enriching. It's very enriching. So you know Dovi you mentioned just now in passing that you have a busy busy day or time at work. I think something extraordinary about both of your stories is that your inclination towards studying history that you did first personally for yourself cuz you enjoy it and then turns into a hobby has not to a degree turns into a career. So Dovi correct me if I'm wrong you know from a business standpoint you decided that your life is not necessarily dedicated to the pursuit of the drive professionally in whatever you're doing but you want this hobby to be a rich part of your life that you're willing to allocate time for it even if it means less hours of work or what America views as mighty success and you you've turned this into a career between your tours which are phenomenal we will talk about all over Israel and Europe. The tours that you do the podcast that you've done and that you continue to do you've taken what was a hobby and an interest which many other people might say yeah you know I'm curious about this area that area and you've I think it's a real model of taking something which excites you and instead of just doing it casually or passingly you've taken it on to do it rigorously and to do it well and then to share that with others in a way that you're allocating significant time for it. What what was that process like? When did you know you when did you fall in love with history with Jewish history and when did it turn from a an avocation to vocation? When did it turn from a hobby on the side to something that you want to really have be defined part of your legacy? Um Dovi me I like it. I think credit where credit is due. I think that my wife Deena and my five children are extremely supportive of me sometimes disappearing on Sundays into my office and uh getting to work doing some research and that was that's something that really makes difference when you have a a supportive staff spouse. But I would say that my my entire life since I'm a little kid my mother who is my mother who has uh 10 children and probably seven or eight of us are big readers. We used to go to the Peninsula Public Library in Lawrence and with a huge box and we would fill it up with books and if you actually go there now there's wanted posters for all of us because of the books that we didn't return. We're so scared to enter the library but we would read non-stop. I had a grandfather that really pushed me hard to read read read read. And I at one point I think I was 12 years old I was reading John Grisham novel and I said to myself why am I reading novels? You know I know how to read well. It's kind of a waste of time. Let me start learning things through my reading and I started reading primarily non-fiction. I read some business stuff but pretty much Jewish history. And I read quickly and um the more I read the more I enjoyed the more I picked things up and I started taking notes. And I would say over the last decade I've built myself a you know quite a call it an archive of of material. And during I say I've always written sometimes under pen names I've done ghost writing for people. I've always helped people write essays you know resumes when my friends are applying to grad school. I was always the guy that I guess they called to help them with that stuff. I was always able to write and definitely credit the Yeshiva that I went to Yeshiva D'Achei Torah by Bender whoever is familiar with the Yeshiva had a state of the art library run by my good friend Moshe ben Avraham who also was was very helpful to me always. And and the Yeshiva had we really had great teachers really really really great teachers. I'll point one out whose name is Mr. Rafi Sackville who lives who made Aliyah lives in Israel. He wrote some books I think under pen names over the years I don't remember the titles but the Australian and we had we had a journalism class in D'Achei Torah in 11th and 12th grade and I really developed skills under him. He really really he pushed us you know he pushed us to the limits not in terms of hard work but in what he thought our potential was. And we all learned how to write and I can tell you the guys who come out of Yeshiva D'Achei Torah besides for being fine scholars in Torah most of them could write pretty well too because we had great teachers and Bender always encouraged it. He thought writing was writing and study of history as well was something he is big into it and still he's somebody that I sit with and I ask him questions cuz he knows that world very very well. But just to go back during when COVID first started I got COVID early on it perm two years ago and Shirley Besser who I knew kind of vaguely through friends asked us he saw some of the stuff that I was posting on social media some of the stuff I dug up over the years that I started posting on Twitter and he says hey you know why don't we turn this into a column and we had this vision for this for the record column where we take a what we call an exhibit document or or a newspaper clipping or poster it's never a photo it's always you know based on some kind of and we write we write about that you know two pages. And we started doing it originally we said we'll try it you know for a couple months and see how it goes and we got great feedback. So the feedback keeps coming and we see people enjoy it so it became it took on a life of its own. Do you have you have bigger you know I'll get to you in one second but Dovi do you have bigger aspirations in terms of going from two-page articles any any books that you want to contribute is there an area particular that you're studying? Well I think sometimes people complain that our our Yom Tov articles are basically books cuz they're I don't know 12 14,000 words. But I mean I mean we'll get there we'll get there with time. I I have to uh narrow down to topic. I have about 15 books that I've written in my head already so I just have to actually write one on paper. I haven't figured out what I want to do. But yeah either me or together with you we have we definitely have some plans. That's become a big part of your life. You have to tell us when did you fall in love with Jewish history? When did you decide this was going to be your career? Um good question. I Yeah I guess the nerdy guys never were good at anything else so they end up reading more of you know history and stuff. I was I loved history since I was a kid. It wasn't always Jewish history. I read American history. I read sports history. I was into baseball history and stuff like that. And eventually led me to Jewish history. Rabbi Wine or Barrel Wine may live and be well was early mentor first through cassette tapes back in the 90s for those who are old enough among the listeners to remember what that is. And and then later in his books. And then later on when I came to America through friendship with a couple of his grandchildren I actually got to know him personally. And used to eat by him on Shabbos and went to his lectures and it became very very close with him and he really got me started. He he you know turned something that was kind of like just you know one of the things I read and really like made it my main focus but it was still you know just a hobby. Never thought it would be a career because no one has ever made history a career you know a good Jewish boy is supposed to go into real estate or accounting or law or something. So I did a couple of Europe trips which is a whole story how that got started also evolved miraculously I never planned it. It just kind of happened so it was just still something on the side. I eventually started working in Yad Vashem also on the side occasionally coming there guiding groups in the museum. Everything was kind of like just on the side. In the meantime I had gotten my bachelor's in business administration in Israel here and because you're supposed to get a business degree cuz you went to Yeshiva so what else are you supposed to do? So I started working in marketing and management and couldn't stand it. And it wasn't happening so I I started toying with the idea maybe I'll actually take these trips to Europe which was still in its embryonic stages and maybe the Yad Vashem thing and maybe maybe some other things maybe I could lecture places maybe I could write somewhere eventually. And I was like fantasizing you know maybe I can make something out of this but I kept on saying no you have to go into business that's what everyone does. And in fact here's a funny story I don't think I've ever said it publicly before. Um I I finishing my bachelor's um, and those you know, completely secular professor, Israeli guy, Professor Ido Kalir from Tel Aviv, economics professor. And I was just schmoozing with him and turns out he was a a World War II naval history buff. So, we was, you know, started talking about that and um, and I mentioned that to him because he's asking me what I plan to do with the degree and what type of jobs I'm looking for and I I don't know we were kind of like getting a bit, you know, personal like that. So, I just happened to mention my dilemma, um, and as we're schmoozing more, he says to me something that I'll never forget. He says to me, "You know, if you start selling insurance with this degree, you're just like everyone else. You know, why would I buy insurance from you more than anyone else? You're just another insurance guy and could be you're worse than other insurance salesmen. But if you do something with history, you do your trips, you do your whatever, you'll be the best at it because no one else is doing it. It's an open market and you are passionate about it, you're knowledgeable, you can develop it, you can make it into something very substantial and if I was going to Europe, I would hire you and no one else." And and I would say that I don't think he meant that. I sent him an email a few months later and said, "I think you switched my career." Um, so I gave him credit, um, but that kind of like gave me a push to to try it and a lot of naysayers out there because you can't do that. No one makes any money off of history and you know, we speak in this conversation and very often in these types of conversations about the ideological aspect of teaching history, it's important and it's it's almost tiring as you said earlier and it's so important and it's educational and it empowers us, it connects us and identity. I got to say that once it became a career, it's been it's a business. It it it it's a way to support your family and I I've there I'd love to say that I'm just, you know, ideological about it and love to teach people and share, but at the end of the day, it became, you know, the trips are great not only because they're fun and educational because it's a business. And the same thing with with everything else and that's important to to keep in mind. Once it's a career, you love it because that's what supports your family, too. Um, so that's uh, and I don't see it as a negative thing at all. I once mentioned it to Rabbi Wein. I said, "I feel kind of guilty now that it's become a career, um, that that that it's business and not just, you know, teaching history and it's ideological." And he said, "Thank God it became a business." He said, "The best thing that can happen, if it's ideological, then it's going to run out of steam at some point. If you're making money from it, it's going to go forever." Um, so it's very wise advice also. And I've gotten such great advice, uh, from so many people. I've gotten expe- The field the world of Jewish history is very small and it's kind of intimate and the people who the big dyne of the field, the big professors, the great Jewish historians of the field are very accessible because, uh, you know, the humanities in general and history in particular, you know, it's not it's not the same type of departments as law or or or finance or or, you know, psychology or whatever. So, um, so they're very available, they're very helpful, they're very, you know, and there's such great material out there and and and and I've benefited and gained from it and and uh, and as it evolved, uh, you know, the trips became more popular. Um, and then I got great advice from some friends of mine who told me there's this new technology called podcasts and you have to try that out. Of course, I had no idea what it was. Um, I'm still trying to figure out what it is and and uh, so you have to have a podcast to to, you know, popularize your trips. And you know, so the podcast came into being and then um, one thing leads to another and people say you do these trips to Europe, you know, why don't you apply those that same model to Israel? So, you can lead tours in Israel, walking tours in Kiryat Sanz and and all these, you know, similar types of tours and and then Mishpacha, you know, Mishpacha's really best have found us and and asked us to write for Mishpacha. So, before you know it, you're doing trips, you're doing writing, you're doing podcasts and people are hiring you for lectures and it's a full-fledged career and, you know, business administration takes a back burner. You're running a business, so I guess I'm still using those skills, um, but uh, um, that's that's kind of how it evolved in in short. There's a few there's a few remarkable things about what you both said, uh, one of which is that each of you identified as someone or people in your life that really changed the trajectory of your life. That their mentorship and their generosity, whether teaching how to write or a parent challenging you to go to library and read or a professor asking you to consider applying your talents in a certain way, um, that that that has an impact. I think it's important for us both as the recipients of that advice to acknowledge it, be grateful for it, but also to see ourselves in a position to sometimes pay it forward by helping that next generation to give some advice or change a trajectory or help people become the best version of themselves. I also added it's amazing that that you referenced that the small network of professionals, they don't view you as a threat, either of you, and they're not resentful or bitter that without the degrees, you've both gained in popularity. They're happy to collaborate and to offer their expertise to you. I think it says a lot about both of you, it says a lot about them and their commitment to that knowledge and wanting it to get out there and not being threatened by it. And I think it's really something fascinating and for us also to emulate in whatever area of life that we're all in as well. And and I wonder, you know, Dovid, I wonder if you grew up today with all the technology and gadgets and all the smartphones and apps, um, you know, whether you would have gained that same love of reading. Uh, that too is I think a big reminder to all of us to get our children off of all that stuff and put an old-fashioned book in their hands. You know, baruch Hashem for Shabbos, where we remember about the power of reading and the value of reading, experience of reading. We have a whole genre now about what you read on Shabbos, you have to post, but that's great if it's promoting, if it's encouraging reading on Shabbos, but that's one of the challenges today that people don't read. Why read when you could be entertained or playing or posting how quickly you were able to solve your Wordle or whatever that thing is called. So, and maybe there's value in all those things, too, but, you know, this what we're all benefiting from your articles today are the result of of parents who pushed you to a library when you were young and then importance of reading is is really really something that that's important. Uh, how do you decide? How do you decide who you're writing about next? Are you excited to take personalities you know little about and learn a lot more about? Are you excited about pursuing or researching personalities you knew next to nothing about? And I guess the opposite's also true. Are you most excited to to present and provide articles and content to readers about someone they know a little bit about but hears a whole lot more? Or to say, "Here's someone you never heard of. Let us introduce him or her to you." Um, I think, uh, Yudi and I probably, this is where we differ the most. I think we can both give our opinions here. Um, which is why sometimes with the bigger articles, you know, they'll be done, uh, separately just because because of also because of time constraints uh, on both of our parts, but, uh, to me, I really there's two qualifications for me to write. Number one is a character, um, or a person that is misunderstood. Um, somebody who was has been written about, but I feel like A, didn't get proper didn't get didn't never got proper credit for his accomplishments. Like my recent article on Rabbi Leo Young, I I can't tell you how many people from all walks of life, from, uh, non-religious to Chassidish, you know, have contacted me, stopped me in the street and and and and told me how, uh, how meaningful it was. Uh, one, uh, one rov actually told me, he pulled me aside when saw him at a simcha and he said, "I wanted you to I want you to know that reading that article on Rabbi Young and all of his accomplishments, it made me feel inadequate in my life." And this is a very accomplished person. He says, "To see how much somebody could accomplish is just incredible." And and and and and that's, you know, that's one thing that I aim for is to take try and take somebody like Rabbi Leo Young who people probably knew about, some people knew about, some who didn't know about, but certainly didn't know, uh, you know, know the impact he made on on yeshivas, building the Bais Yaakov system, saving people during the Holocaust. Um, that's one and the other one is um, Any other Any other examples before you move on? Who's another example of someone you've written about that you think is is doesn't get the credit they deserve or is or is not fully developed? Rabbi Leib Mallin. Um, and Rabbi Leib Mallin is like the I don't know how to call the folk hero of the yeshiva world. You know, yeshiva bochrim, you know, in most yeshivas yeshivas anywhere, Rabbi Leib Mallin is like, you know, he's, uh, he's on the Mount Rushmore of, uh, yeshiva figures that people didn't really know about. But, uh, like one guy told me, you know, I I I know it's tiring. I didn't know if he lived in the 18th century or 20th century. I didn't know anything about him. So, to bring that to life, which was a major major undertaking on both of our, you know, by both of us. We spent a lot a lot a lot of time interviewing people and and I don't know if you know anything about basic Talmud, but they're not easy people to get to. They're not they're not exactly, you know, forthcoming and took a lot of work, a lot of help from a lot of people getting the right interviews. We had to meet people in dark alleys and in basements in Bensonhurst. And but ultimately we were able to, uh, to to piece that, uh, together and, uh, and really and just something else to it is that Reb Leib obviously did not have children. And I feel like when there when there is a godol like that whose legacy is you know is carried on through his Torah, I feel like being able to pass on his life story, which he does not have descendants to tell and his talmidim, you know, there's not that many talmidim that are still around. Four talmidim, I feel like it's a zchus for us to be able to do that. What was the second criteria? Um the second the second criteria is just to to take uh um a personality who we know about, like let's say Reb Elchonon Wasserman, and take an aspect of their life which is misunderstood or has not been explored or been fictionalized um and and get it right. So we did this piece on Reb Elchonon which won an award last night um and uh it we we went into his trip to America, which he took you know, the famous trip he took to America before the war um and really I spent a lot of time in the archives digging through papers and and trying to really find out what occurred in that trip. If you look on the Mishpacha website, you'll see we actually created a map of his trip across America, all the cities he visited, uh the places that he spoke, and uh and we're able to learn a lot about, you know, what he did in America and really how what he accomplished in America was not so much raising money. super successful at uh at raising money. Um he probably raised more money selling aliyas, uh you know, uh on one day of Yom Tov than he did in his entire uh trip to America, but he inspired American Jewry. Uh he really lit up, you know, he ignited a flame which today is is burning very brightly. He ignited yeshivas, he ignited, you know, Reb Moshe Schauer was on Mike Tress, people like that, they were you know, they met Reb Elchonon and it changed their lives. Reb Chaim Kohn who started uh who was who ran Chaim Berlin for many years, he's another person. So many people that he met during that America trip were were uh were ignited by him um and uh that that's something else and something I'd love to do more of um to try you know, to until then I think most of the stories that were written about that trip were iffy at best, you know, uh they were you know, they didn't I they I couldn't find any basis for them. So so I really tried to to speak to people, to go through the archives and figure out first mapped out where he was at what time uh and which cities he visited, the places he stayed, the places he spoke, and and that was really fascinating to me and really resonated with the readers. It's the type of work that goes into it. So you're you're uncovering a plot. It's that's exciting and cool in its own right. Yehuda, in what way do you disagree with Dovi on this? Uh disagree, I I would add add my own input. Um that my my my goal is primarily uh to broaden the the spectrum. In other words, um whereas Dovi, you know, wants to emphasize we take take personalities that are either not well known enough or are well known but we want a more accurate picture and give it its accuracy, give it the respect it deserves, give it the research it deserves. Um what I want to do is broaden it. In other words, to look beyond just the biography of the personality, to get a sense of an era, of an institution, of an event, of a trend. I want to you know, just give us better context of Jewish history. I think that especially in the religious world, both in Israel and the United States, we're very biographical-centric um and I think it does a disservice to Jewish history because we lose the big picture and what what I'm always trying to do is give more context of the time. If the person came from the city, well what was that city like? If you lived in this century, what was that century like? What was that country like? What was the culture? What were the changes going on? What was his era? What was the institutions that he was he or she was associated with? What were they like? That's goal number one. My second goal is to um try I guess it's a continuation of the first one is to try, which is a trend in the history world in general now, is to try to raise the awareness of social history. Of of the the daily lives of the common people, of of of communal life, family life, economic life, the religious life, of of how the average people lived their lives in every way. And social history is a rising rising trend and I want to bring it to the religious world. Um and uh it can be done through, you know, zeroing in on specific personalities, but to give those that that richer uh picture. And then definitely to always explore new things, new new times, new new uh gotta gotta have that freshness Do you worry when with the social history, do you do you worry about or or you know, when when is it history, when is it hagiography? When are you depicting accurately what's happening, when are we highlighting the best and the inspiration and the profile of the people we can learn from, and when are we accurately transmitting what was happening in the time even though it can contain some unflattering things about some of the people or the trends of that time? I think the move to social history will rectify that issue. I think that when we focus on a certain personality who's uh almost mythical um and who's a hero, um so we want to only portray the the the good. But if we're not focusing on a specific uh we are focusing on personality but we're giving a broader picture, that broader picture can give a lot of nuance and can give a lot of you know, can add the complexity, the shades of gray because we get a sense of the times, we get a sense of the place. And therefore we better understand the person specifically that we're focusing on and the people around them, their families, their communities, their students, their their peers, um their opponents, uh anyone in that era. And once we get a better picture, that gives us more nuance and then you don't have to be someone who's who's red flagging things. Here, look at the negativity, don't just focus on positive. You don't have to do that to get the same to achieve the same results. You're just presenting a fuller, richer picture and by doing so you automatically gain the nuance, you gain that background and and you understand and your other reader can understand on their own um the diversity, the the the positive and the negative that coexist together and and not shy away from it. Dovi, who in 100 years from now, the Dovi of 100 years from now, Mishpacha or whatever the magazine will be in 100 years from now, who will they be writing profiles on from our time now? That's not obvious. Not not not the Reb Chaim and not the Reb Zalman Auerbach. Well well they they already wrote one about you, right? They didn't write a profile. They they they gave me an interesting name, but yeah. Who who 100 years from now? Who are people in in today's generation that they'll be writing about? Yeah, if you were alive 100 years from now, who will you be looking back at our time period and saying they're under appreciated or they're misunderstood or they're fictionalized? Who today deserves to be fully more fully appreciated? So you're putting me on the spot here, but I think I mentioned before Reb Yaakov Bender who is somebody that you know, I think that that the stories about him that I I was in Darchei Torah for 16 years through Bais Medrash and it's the things that I witnessed in that yeshiva um you know, I think at this point, you know, these stories have become commonplace and and they may sound they're going to sound like exaggerations, but I saw them happen in front of my own eyes, you know, I saw I saw a menahel who who had very very very different ideas of how to run a yeshiva than others, how to mainstream children that had mental and physical handicaps and through that, you know, he he he built a mosad where everyone who you'll probably notice who leaves yeshiva Darchei Torah has a sensitivity and a caring for every Jew no matter where they come from. And that was something that that I think was not done. In my ninth grade class, I think there were 20 kids and 10 or 11 of them came from backgrounds where there was a it was it was either divorce in the home or there were kids that came from other neighborhoods that no school took them because they were orphans and nobody could pay tuition. And seeing that sensitivity and that love for every single uh Jew was something that really it really changed my life and many others. And I feel like one day, you know, a book will be written about him and people will say, "Eh, I don't know if that stuff's true." But but but uh you know, I'll be able to say that I saw these stories, you know, in front of my own eyes and they're all true. He deserves it for sure. He's fantastic. We had him in our shul and we'll look forward to please God having him behind the bema, but absolutely. Yehuda, who who in your mind, is there someone who's under appreciated, misunderstood, that is not highlighted the way they should be, that deserves to be further explored or expressed? Maybe not now during their lifetime, but 100 years from now, that your two grandchildren will be collaborating on articles about. Um I I think our rebbeim in the mirror. Dovi and I got to know each other in the mirror. Um and we made it 47 minutes in before we got to the mirror, just want to point that we were going to get there. But part of it, let's see how far we can get before we get to the Dovi Yehuda obsession with the mirror. Yeah, go ahead. And uh both of us are mirror products. I think we're both proud mirror products. W is very involved still uh with uh with the mirror. He can tell you about that more. But both of us had these incredible rabayim there. Um they some of them have already passed on. Many of them are still alive and doing incredible things. They're amazing people and they do so much for Klal Yisrael and for the Mir talmidim and for me personally for us personally. And they encouraged us then. They keep on encouraging us now in what we do. And um we I personally owe everything to them as a you know a mirror and top Mir talmid. And I think that some of them are a little more famous. So I don't know if they're so much underappreciated but underappreciated definitely have not yet been written about enough. Um but um some of them are even under the radar. They're not even you know appreciated. So definitely every single one of them is probably 15 or 20 of them that I can rattle off that uh that are like that and would fit into that category. And then there's peers of mine. I look around at me at friends I have and I say, "Wow, these are people who are doing so much and they're my age." And I'm like jealous of them because I remember them in the dorm, you know. Uh W and I remember uh today he's Rabbi Shai Schechter but Shai Schechter was my roommate in the mirror. And we were in the dormitory together. We were roommates, you know. And and look what he's doing you know, for Klal Yisrael for the Jewish people and and uh you know, and it's it's it's it's very inspiring. I think people like him um and I'm sure there are many others will be written about in 100 years from now and we'll we'll appreciate what they've contributed to the Jewish people. So it's meant to you know, the rabayim in the mirror and also peers who I can already see who are accomplishing. So let's go to the mirror since we just went there. You met them in the mirror. You were chavrusa's in the mirror and um I know you've brought a lot of attention through your articles and and your teachings to that illustrious history and to today being uh one of the two biggest yeshivas in the world and the difference that it's making. Um you both had relationship with Rav Nosson Tzvi Finkel. Is is there something about Rav Nosson Tzvi that is not fully appreciated or misunderstood? There there are books and we know about his modest humble beginnings, his more modern beginnings and and how he emerges to become Rav Nosson Tzvi. We know how he overcame or confronted physical limitations and challenges heroically persevering and showing tremendous mesirus nefesh. But when the lights and the camera are off or or what does the book not include that the two of you can tell us about Rav Nosson Tzvi that also contributed to to growing this enormous yeshiva that's producing leaders of of Klal Yisrael? We were both close with them. Um I I I think that um the he's he's the Rav Nosson Tzvi like you said who came from a modern background in his personal journey. What he became went from uh you know, you know, kid in Chicago in a coed school to becoming the Rosh Yeshiva, the great Rosh Yeshiva, the great talmid chacham and tzaddik. That's his one aspect, his personal journey. There's Rav Nosson Tzvi, the one who overcame his physical limitations by having Parkinson's disease. And there's Rav Nosson Tzvi, the the uh impact that he had on people's lives. Um the fatherliness, the warmth. The the um you know, the interactions that he had with his talmidim and what type of impact that left on I could speak for myself and and and many others. And also that's that's a third part. And then the fourth is what he built in the yeshiva. So I think that everyone knows about Rav Nosson Tzvi. He's one of those who are have have are very much appreciated and very much written about. But I think that these are four components and I think that in order for us to truly appreciate his greatness, we have to recognize that there's four narratives here. Perhaps there's even more that I'm overlooking. And try to understand that synthesis of all that together into one individual. It's you know, he would be a great person if he was just a warm fatherly Rosh Yeshiva to thousands of talmidim. He would be a great person if he had just built the Mir Yeshiva into what it became. He would be a great person if he had just you know, grown up in a more modern home and become a great Rosh Yeshiva. And he would be a great person had he just um uh um overcame his his Parkinson's disease. That synthesis I think is truly great and something we really need to appreciate. And I think that it'll take years for us to because um you know, uh the great Chinese politician whatever his name was it'll come to me. He was once asked about the impact of the French Revolution in the 1960s. He was asked about the French Revolution's impact on the world society which was in 1789 and he said it's still too early to tell. Um so I think that with time we're going to much more appreciate the greatness of Rav Nosson Tzvi Finkel. He was larger than life. Um I I I I can't I can't say I was as close to Rav Nosson Tzvi as Yehuda. I came to yeshiva a little little bit later. I'm younger. I would say I'm closer with the current Rosh Yeshiva. I want to make one small correction is that Yehuda and I um did not really meet in the mirror in the beginning. We when I was uh living in Ma'ale Adumim as a uh younger man, I was actually working also in the afternoon. And uh a few a few of us uh who lived there um met a dynamic talmid chacham whose name is Gabriel Schechter, Rabbi Gabriel Schechter who lives in Monsey. He's a mechaber sefarim. Uh he's an expert on on eruvin. Uh a very chashuva person and he among among the things he's a real expert in was hilchos Shabbos. And we decided together we were going to start a Shabbos morning kollel. Um in in America it's kind of unheard of but in Eretz Yisrael davening at 7:00 in the morning is kind of normal. So we What What time was that running, Yehuda? Was it 6:00 something or 6:30. So we we we would daven than normal. We would daven 6:30 and we would get there your shamayim kugel and a a pickle. One pickle per person. You never got extra. Um and then we would go down steps to Or Sameach and we had this kollel where we learned hilchos Shabbos together. This lasted uh several years even after we left. Um and uh that's really where our relationship started and we learned together in the mirror. We still learn together um by the Mir annual Mir Yerachei Kallahs which uh im es Hashem hopefully Rabbi Goldberg will join one of these years. We'd love to have you. Um but uh if I could illustrate Rav Nosson Tzvi, it's it's in one story which I I recently heard from someone close to him. Um and that was just his caring for everybody and not just those in his yeshiva. Um what In the In the old days when you would come to the mirror, you would show up with a letter. The The acceptance process was just getting a letter from your your Rosh Yeshiva. You would show up in Eretz Yisrael, you present the letter. Maybe they'd ask you uh a couple of questions and then you'd be good to go pretty much. And this boy showed up and Rav Nosson Tzvi was able to tell that he wasn't very happy. He was sad. So he said, "What's bothering you?" He says, "Uh nothing." And Rav Nosson Tzvi says, "Come on. You know, I know a sad person when I see one." He says, "Well, you want to know the truth? It's a little bit embarrassing but uh all of my friends got into Brisk. But I didn't. So I'm really only here because I didn't get into Brisk." So Rav Nosson Tzvi said, "Come. I'm going to get my coat." Rav Nosson Tzvi went. He got in his He got in his coat. And you know the tremendous tremendous tremendous, you know, illness that he had, the the amount of of koach he had was very little. And he says, "Come. We're going to Rav Moshe Schveitzer together right now." And they went to go to together to Rav Moshe Schveitzer. And by the time they got there, Rav Nosson Tzvi was even worse. He was, you know, from his Parkinson's, he was shaking. And they walked and knocked on the door. And Rav Moshe Schveitzer sees Rav Nosson Tzvi and you know, shocked like, "What is he doing here with this boy?" And he says to him and I'll say it in English. He says, "You know, this is uh you know, this is Moshe and he's going to be joining your yeshiva this month." And obviously looking at Rav Nosson Tzvi Finkel, um he had no choice. And Moshe went on to learn in Brisk with his friends. And that that was That was something that illustrates uh it was a quality Rav Nosson Tzvi had. He He He you know, there's a famous story about him going to Eretz Yisrael when the yeshiva was in terrible debt. And uh he he challenged the guys to to learn certain amounts and he would pay them. And my friend uh Ezra David was with him in the car afterwards says, "I don't understand. We don't have money to pay Rav Yonah Ungerleider. How could you go offer money to the Ungerleider in Eretz Yisrael for learning?" And And his love for Torah was so infectious um that it didn't matter where it was being learned. He did build the largest yeshiva in the world. But uh he he just like uh you know, the Finkel family, the Alter of Slabodka, you know, Rav Leizer Yudel, Rav Leizer Yudel built Rav Leizer Yudel built several yeshivas in Eretz Yisrael for Sefardim, for Chassidim, built the Chibinei Yeshiva. Um they cared about Torah. And uh if you ask me, the Mir Yeshiva is around more than 200 years. And what is the secret of the Mir Yeshiva? And that is is just love for every single Jew, a wide open tent. We all know, you know, we could we could fill in some of your listeners whose sons were in Shalvim or KBY and maybe they never told their parents. But I know they spent summers learning next to me in the bench in the mirror. A couple of them even stayed in my dirah. Um and an open door, you know, people just come and they learn Torah. It didn't matter. Largest Chassidish yeshiva in the world, largest Sefardi yeshiva in the world. And actually uh Rabbi Goldberg, the two the two of us met for the first time in Yerushalayim at the embassy opening a couple of years ago. And one of the people sitting next to us was Rabbi Dr. Ari Berman, who had who had recently become the new YU president. And I said to him that I am actually very involved in your largest graduate school. And he says, "What's that?" I said, "The Mir Yeshiva." And uh he got quite a kick out of that one. But uh but it really is it's a it's a wonderful place to go to see, you know, to to to learn Torah together with people from all walks of life, to have a ban of all sorts, to be able to to learn in that environment and in the Messiah of 200 years and and the the warmth and the love and the openness and, you know, the encouragement that we get from our Abayim and the Rosh Yeshiva for the work that we're doing for our writing. It's constant. They they they read our articles, they send us feedback, they they will will call them with questions. And uh it's really it's beautiful. I've had the privilege to have my son-in-law was learning in the Mir last couple years. My my new son-in-law is heading there this Elul. And so I personally have a karasah tov. But one of the things that was amazing I went to Beis Shaya where he was learning in several times. I spent time sitting and learning there. I went to shul with him with Resnick. And in Beis Shaya, you know, he was pointing it like you were just describing and he's like, "That guy grew up here. This guy went to YU. This guy went to Penn. This guy went to whatever." And and the melting pot that is the Mir is a very special place. It's enormously diverse. And I don't know if there's as much of diverse Yeshiva in the entire world where as people with as many diverse backgrounds can equally feel comfortable. And the secret sauce to me was that nobody's focused there on the differences. They're focused on the common language of Torah. And my son-in-law said that to me, you know, when he had been growing and it was in different environments, people hack all the time about hashkafa and they debate this and debate the army and debate the education and debate YU and debate and went to the Mir and all he was talking about is Gemara shitas. They they weren't Nobody was talking about or caring about. And and that's that's the ikar. That's the core. That's the That's the mutual language that we have that anyone can go there. And even if they if they have to change their chitzoniyus, if they change their wardrobe to to simply culturally fit in, but nobody's asking them to change any core beliefs of what they feel or believe or how they live inside. No one's asking to change the outside either. As far as I know, they may just want to out of comfort. But I I I saw it as that melting pot and really really special in that way and that commitment to Torah and not being threatened by sharing Torah. Meaning, I think the measure of the Yeshiva is when its talmidim and graduates open more Yeshivas and they take pride and joy in the expansion of Torah rather than be threatened by it. When they're proud to see their talmidim and musmachim and their graduates, so to say, continue that legacy by expanding the mission rather than be threatened by it. And and I don't know if anybody does that as well or more than the Mir. So it's special. So Dovi, you're involved I know in in in the Mir through us kind of today. What's what How many talmidim? What's the Mir's budget? I don't know if I'll get I don't know if I'll get into specifics here, but uh the the the Mir's budget is well over $50 million at this point. And the bulk of the money comes from America. And there are a few volunteers um led by a great man named Ralph Herzka who devote much of their time to raising money for the Yeshiva. Um and uh the in the last 10 years since Rav Nosson Tzvi died, the focus of the Yeshiva was to sell the mesirus nefesh that Rav Nosson Tzvi had and and how it kind of I wouldn't say hurt the Yeshiva, but, you know, think about a Yeshiva running constantly without its Rosh Yeshiva, right? The Rosh Yeshiva was constantly in America raising money. So we all decided that we were going to try and give up of our time instead of the Rosh Yeshiva giving up his time to raise money and tap into the thousands and thousands of alumni that the Mir Yeshiva had and and build something out of it. And we started with $36 and $72 donations. And and baruch Hashem, today we're raising, you know, tens of millions of dollars. And and many other Yeshivas have tapped into that model as well. Um and it's wonderful to see today that the Yeshiva is is is thriving and the younger light are paid on time. Um and uh it's it's really it's really a system which is functioning well and uh has become We have an American CEO, Mr. Adrian Garbaz, who has a business background, who really runs the Yeshiva the Yeshiva's finances in a corporate way, you know, in in a good corporate way. Um and I could say that there's very few mosdos in the world that you can give money to and know that like 95% and 96% of it is going straight back, you know, after uh costs and whatever. And and uh I'm very proud to be involved in even a small way. So your your Abayim continue to to show you support and love for for what you're doing. One of the things that you both do though is you engage technology to help spread the message. So whether it's the use of social media in its most positive sense or using podcasting to continue to teach Jewish history. You know, talk for a moment I know and we could speak for hours and thank you for your time already. We're going to start to wind down. I know we've been having a long conversation, but did you have any qualms or hesitations given your Yeshiva backgrounds? Was engaging technology something you hesitate to do? How do you do it in a way that you're using the best of it without um engaging or encouraging what is the worst of it? Were you concerned about not being fully accepted by all audiences because you have a technology presence or you're engaging technology? What's What's a little bit of the philosophy or attitude towards technology? I mean, towards technology in in general, I think the world is changing and and the I mean, as you know, the opportunity to disseminate Torah or as we call like I you do this podcast, Torah adjacent uh content throughout the world is incredible. I mean, think about the people that you know, were listening, you know, Hal and Mike and the Mad Dog, which well, you know, which which I was raised on. Um or or things that were probably, you know, maybe even improper in the car and right now are sitting and listening to whether it's YU or or or really high quality Jewish podcasts like like you does. Um that's that's something that I think is very very hard to argue with. Um as as And during COVID, obviously, we all saw how people were stuck in their homes and they were able to sit and learn Torah and that was due to technology. And and everyone embraced it. Um as for social media, I can't say that that I got got I went to my rebbe in the Mir and I said, "Could I post on Twitter?" But I I had content. I was just starting to post just post stuff here and there. Um and I saw that in in in instead of people engaging in nonsense, people were learning things from it and they were engaging in in in Torah content. So I try to to uh I as you do, I know, steer away from politics and and and nonsense and really just just post high quality uh you know, Jewish history content on there. And and you know, some of our following definitely comes from there. So So I wouldn't say it's it's uh something that I run around that I'm super proud of. Um you know, Twitter is not a great place. I wouldn't encourage anybody to to go run and sign up for Twitter. But uh but if you're on it, um you know, using your opportunity like people like, you know, that felt like Rav Dovid Roshefsky and and others who use it really to spread love, to spread Torah. Um you know, someone someone's got to be in the trenches fighting. So, you know, the the the people who are doing it, you know, you got to find, you know, if you have a tool and you have a way to Same way anybody who's in kiruv has got to sometimes go to places and be places they don't necessarily want to be. It's not easy for someone to live on a college campus. Um but uh I got started on social media because I did Project SEED. And everyone was on Facebook and that was my way of keeping in touch with everybody throughout the year. And till today I keep in touch with dozens of people that I learned with over the years doing Project SEED via Facebook. I don't really think I use it for anything else. Um but um you know, it can be a valuable tool obviously has to be used the right way. Yudi, what are your thoughts? I see it as um the process of evolving technology is the same process that we've seen throughout Jewish history. And nothing fundamentally changed. I see it the same way as they saw the printing press, the railroad, uh newspapers, and uh and everything was embraced at its time to for a specific purpose. And there's going to always come along people who are going to use it for other purposes. So one of my friends came over to me and said, "You got to have a podcast." And I didn't know what it was. And as soon as it dawned on me that that I grew up listening to Rabbi Wein's history tapes, this is cassette tapes in 2020 2021. Um this is just the same thing and that's it's not called cassette tapes, it's called a podcast. So I I would on I don't even see podcast as a I see it as a no-brainer. And um you have to produce content, you have to engage listeners. And when I started the podcast, I thought, you know, there's going to be 40 people out there who will listen. And uh because how many nerds uh who are into history can there be already? And and the fact that it grew to thousands of listeners, not as many as behind the Bima, obviously, but, you know, just whatever whatever modest uh you know, slice of the podcast market I have, it it showed me that that the medium is used and people are looking for good content. And there is a lot of nonsense out there, exactly like Dovi's saying. And there are people who want the good stuff. And good Jewish history is good stuff. So all of a sudden I have I you know in the beginning I didn't even do that much research cuz I figured it's just like kind of like having fun. But then it's like these intelligent listeners who are keeping you on your toes, who are correcting you. So, then you start to take it really seriously and then it starts to grow. And I've formed friendships over the because of this podcast. And you know, I just as an example, one of one of the most knowledgeable Jewish history guys out there, Ellie Newberger, who I got to know through the podcast. I've never even met the guy. And and and and all of a sudden you have new ac- access to sources and information and stories because because you met over the podcast. And there's hundreds of people like that. So, the podcast as a medium to me was a no-brainer. Social media was another step. Um I was very hesitant. But then again, I I crossed this barrier where I realized it's just modern-day advertising. The same way you'd place an ad in the newspaper 20 years ago. So, today you have a social media presence. And I make the distinction. Yehuda Geber is not on Twitter. Jewish history soundbites is on Twitter. And if Jewish history soundbites like now in this summer I'm starting a new series, launching a new series about you know leading up to Shiva Asar B'Tammuz and three weeks in Tisha B'Av, about Jews saving Jews during the Holocaust. So, it's going to start next week. It's going for 6 7 weeks. How do I generate interest? How do I get the word out there? You have to go on social media. You go tell people we're doing this series. You know, you want to sponsor, you have ideas of different stories, you know, are do you think listeners will be interested? It's a way of engagement. And it's the podcast that's on Twitter, not Yehuda Geber. Never post anything that has to do with my personal life or or you know, anything like that. Um and it's and it's just it's straight up, you know, marketing and advertising. And that's that's the medium that's used today. The podcast is fantastic. I again, I know we've got a long time so we're going to wrap it up. Yehuda, your favorite place to lead a tour in Europe and your favorite place to lead a tour in Eretz Yisrael. Um in Europe is good question. The most popular one is the standard Poland tour. But I like the more, you know, interesting one, you know, quirky ones. Um I you know, back when Ukraine was a safe place to go to, so going to the Baltics and that route was always very fascinating. Um going to to Vilna, you know, Lithuania, Belarus, Belarus is where the Mir is. Of course, was always uh you know, very exciting as well. Um very hard to find a favorite. Very very difficult. But you know, and then and then beyond, Western Europe has become more popular. I've been to Italy recently. Um I don't know if I could come up with a I think I'm supposed to say Reb Shayaleh Kerestirer only because everyone likes that today. But um the food is definitely good there. It's hard to find a favorite though. What about Eretz Yisrael? in Israel I like you know, have my walking tours in Yerushalayim and in Kiryat Sefer and I do them you know, mystical tours in Tzfat and Me'arat Hamachpela in Chevron, but I find that the specific walking tours in Yerushalayim um that people are not they they're familiar with the neighborhoods. They they feel like they've known this neighborhood from a hundred times that they visited to Israel. But then I lead them on a tour and show them that behind the facade there's actually a fascinating story of how Jews made a conscious decision to return to Yerushalayim in the 17th, 18th, 19th centuries and rebuild this place. And we live off of the fruits of their fan- their dreams, which everyone thought they were crazy in the 19th century to do this. And we live in this ultra-urban Yerushalayim where we think of Machaneh Yehuda shuk area as a place to shop and this really hip place and bars and stuff. And you really get to feel the story of that place. So, Machaneh Yehuda, that area, Nachlaot, Sha'arei Chesed, Nachlaot, those old neighborhoods in middle of Yerushalayim I find that those are the best places. From Dovi, favorite article that you've written so far. It's a really tough one. I would say my favorite article that I wrote, the definitely the most enjoyable one and probably the one that was seen by the least people just cuz it was so random is one where I wrote that was called When Zaide was no longer young. Um it was about the first Jewish nursing home in America. Um it won first place award for North American Jewish history at the AJPA last night. So, they certainly appreciated it. I think it could be appreciated by a secular Jew, a frum Jew. Um look it up. Um maybe we could post the link. But it was a ton of fun. I really learned about a whole new genre of characters that uh claimed to be 110 years old but really were 70 and had stories about um reportedly meeting Napoleon. But a really incredible bunch, something that I think that if anyone in Hollywood is here is listening, it would make for a great Netflix uh series. Um but really really really uh fascinating and fun journey through them building this home and all the characters that came there and and how they kept it going and and some of the people involved. So, that was that's probably my fav- my favorite one. I think the the most popular one I I would say is the one that you Yehuda and I wrote on on Reb Leib Mallin. Uh that one we get still get a comment about it every week and this uh one on Reb Leo Young is really uh you know, it's really grown wings. People uh constantly, you know, asking me, talking, sending me more information about him. And they really want a book about him, but I don't know if I'm the right guy. So, we'll see. Tremendous. Well, I can't encourage everybody strongly enough. Check out Yehuda and Dovi, their writing. You can find it on Mishpacha's website. Is there a collection of your articles? Is the best way to go back to Mishpacha archives to find those articles? Um I mean it's a sham there'll be a book. Um but uh yeah, you can go on on the website. I just want to really just one last thing really is is none of this would be possible without our editor, Shoshana Friedman, who is a whiz, as you know, who is an absolute whiz. And she does an incredible job making our work shine. Uh sometimes in the wee hours uh night, she's a mother of many children. Her husband is a mashgiach in the Mir. Um and and she's incredible. And how she does what she does, I'm not really sure. But she pulls together an incredible publication. And we have the zchus that she edits our major pieces and could never ever do it without her. So, uh I I have to be publicly makir tov to her. Problem is when you get to be my age, you know, you're packing so much content and they make you fit on those two pages that sometimes the font is too small. You get to be my age, it's not easy to read, particularly after, you know, a nice uh shabbos seudah, a few l'chaims. So, I got to speak to her. She's got to give you a third and fourth page. Feedback is important. [email protected], always. Got to spread it out over a few more pages so old guys like me can still read it. Can still read it. So, they can find you online Mishpacha. Yehuda, you got Jewish history soundbites. Everybody should have that in their podcast library. Be listening regularly. I told the story this week in the parsha share that I heard from you, Yehuda, the Bubba. I called you about it, the Bubba of Rabe. And when he when he said of the things he doesn't have for the Divrei Chaim, he doesn't have to have this one thing either. And that was a great story. So, thank you for everything I personally gained from both of you that I've learned and that I continue to be inspired by. Should continue to have uh tremendous success and siyata d'Shmaya in helping the klal Yisrael get access to people and places and times and to be inspired and elevated and enriched by it. And uh thank you thank you for coming behind the bima, sharing a little bit about yourselves and uh what you do and how you do it. I look forward to reading the future articles. Thank you so much. And and thank you. We've turned down quite a few of these offers in the past and and uh we did it with you because we appreciate what you do, you know, for klal Yisrael. And uh we felt like, you know, klal Yisrael owes owes you more than more than one favor. And uh for us to do a small part to come and enjoy you. Um and I really appreciate the conversation for you having us on. Thank you. Thank you. People enjoyed. Fantastic conversation. They're just a wealth of information, knowledge. They're passionate about the Jewish history. And they're they're great guys to hang out with and schmooze with. We have such a rich history and I think it's one of those those subjects which a lot just a lot of people don't don't find a lot of people that are great teachers and therefore they don't learn a lot. But if they had people like this teaching them, they would be all in on it. Exactly. You know, and it's it's a lesson. It's an interesting thing in our time that we need our professionals, our academic academicians, our scholars, our professors, the role they play, they're fantastic. And it's not mutually exclusive. It doesn't mean if you're a professor, a scholar, then you also can't reduce it to something that people can digest. But we see in this world, in the world we're living in, that paralleling the experts whom we need are the people who know how to package things in a digestible fashion. And that's where I think they um excel. Reb Elly Stefansky. This guy just packaged Yevamos. We have 10 days left. We're going to have a great siyum. I'm actually going to be uh hopefully at the siyum. He's not going to be here. He'll be traveling. But I'll just give you an example right now. We're we're we're using Have you ever heard of the Potato Head family, Mr. Potato? These are the characters that we're learning Yevamos with right now. And it's working. Right. Mr. Potato If you saw these images, they say, "What are you what are you learning?" It's great. You are actually you're like the poster child. You're like the poster child. You're like the example number one. In our interview of Stefansky, you haven't heard of him listen. Yeah, he got you to sign up live while during interview. And you haven't missed a day of the Daf Yomi since. 10 days to go. And you know what's amazing, he said, "Now is the time everyone's like we're all me included, we're supposed to be recruiting people for ksubas, right? This is our job." And he says, "Whether it's that you actively go out and give them a new free gemara, right? He has gemaras he's he's giving away again. Or you simply put on some of like the magnets on your car. He says one day you get up to Shamayim and say, you know, you miles that you finished Shas, you finished a couple of Masechtas. But, you know, you don't realize you actually finished, you know, 10,000. What do you What do you mean? I didn't go through it that many times. He says, "No, that magnet that you put on your car let someone to go to the website, someone got excited, and now that they signed up because of the magnet." So, You never know. What can I Where can I buy the yellow hat with the with the MDY or the or the um sleeveless shirt with MDY? order. Special order? Can't get that everywhere? That you can't get. Yeah, they're selling that. That's a that's a one-of-a-kind. I'll tell you what I didn't see coming. Sign up for Shas cotton, right? That's Sukkah Shas cotton is my favorite Masechta. Yeah, if you're not doing the Daf, Sukkah Shas cotton, my personal favorite Masechta. I don't know if you're allowed to have favorites, like your children, but definitely sign up. Um Yeah, I what I did not see coming is when uh you would have mentioned who his roommate was, that he thinks in 100 years from now some historians might be helping us understand previous guest of Behind the Bima, Rabbi Shais Schachter, my good friend. Interesting, I didn't see that coming. A little Dov Beis Shavkin reference. We got a lot of Behind the Bima guests referenced in that conversation and who are some of the main players of our time that history will reflect back on. So, fascinating conversation. We're so grateful that everyone joined us. Rabbi Brody from Israel live in inconvenient time. We appreciate it. No, it's not easy. Birds chirp as birds love early mornings. We appreciate your being with us as always. Again, want to thank the Tabush from Brooklyn. Murray Litwak, keep up the great work. Reduce our tuition. Huge thank you to the Hanners. Thank you for being dear friends. Sign up for one-on-one if you've not yet. Be us online.org/ one-on-one. Rate, review, and in your review tell us who you want to hear from on Behind the Bima next. Thank you for joining us. Until next time, stay happy.