#49: Behind the Bima - Special Guest: Sruli Besser

From Boca Raton, Florida, Rabbis Ephraim Goldberg, Philip Moskowitz, and Josh Brody are taking you behind the Bima. The BRS Rabbis schmooze about contemporary issues and talk to special guests who give a behind-the-scenes look at how they got to where they are and what keeps them going. Welcome to Behind the Bima. Good evening and welcome. It's Wednesday night, 9:00 p.m. I'm your host, Rabbi Ephraim Goldberg, joined by my dear friends and colleagues, Rabbi Philip Moskowitz and Rabbi Josh Brody. And we're here to take you behind the Bima. That is correct. We're here to go behind the Bima. We've got a very exciting show for you, our dear friend Sruly Besser, and it promises to be a fascinating exchange of ideas. Sruly's not afraid to lay it out and to defend his positions and to talk about uncomfortable topics, though we're going to talk about inspirational topics because Behind the Bima is not a controversial show. We don't thrive on controversy. We thrive on inspiration. We've got some follow-ups for you on the agunah situation. We've got a follow-up on Meyers Leonard. We've got a lot to talk about tonight, but first, our sponsors. Want to thank our dear sponsors. The Mueller family, our dear friends the Muellers who sponsored in the commemoration of David's new book. David is a prolific author. He's written now several books, our dear friend David Mueller. And his new book is called Growing Up with Houdini. His father was a big supporter of the magic industry. We had an illusionist on a few weeks ago. Since then, we are budding illusionists ourselves, watching YouTube videos. When I say some of us, I don't mean me. Um but David is David is legit and David's family are legit. And he has a great new book that tells the story of growing up with Houdini. And I've looked through it, I've read parts of it, and it's really a wonderful story and I highly recommend it. So, I'm not sure it's even available for sale. You have to get in touch with David directly. Will it be on Audible? The best day to get him is on his birthday. So, be in touch with David Mueller, you definitely want to read that book. Also, we have a co-sponsor tonight, which is very exciting to me and sort of a surprise to me. My machatunim, my daughter Atara's in-laws, Bruce and Jill Minsk. Our dear family are sponsoring co-sponsoring tonight in commemoration or in memory, rather, of my wife's grandparents, Aaron Halevi and Esther Goldsmith, my mother-in-law's parents, and Yisrael Nussbaum and Chaya Esther Brookstein, my father-in-law's parents. And the Minsks are dear family, so generous of you. Thank you so much. We're looking forward to having Pesach and to spending time. And thank you so much for that generosity, we really appreciate it. Gentlemen, what's new in your life? What do you want to begin with? Love it. I found Miami Boys Choir on iTunes. I had no idea that they were there. And love that Rabbi What is he saying? One of our listeners already commenting. Love how Rabbi Brody's dress changes based on the guest. Where's the hat? Where's the hat? Some of us went to, you know, the Yeshiva Shwelt and some of us, you know, might not have gone. So, just getting back with my my roots. Anyway, I Speaking of which, I was listening to iTunes today and I found that Miami Boys Choir is actually on iTunes. And I went back to the 1984 1986 album. So, listen to Besiyata Dishmaya, Meheira, Ana Bekoach, Asher Bara. I My kids are like, "What is this?" It's amazing. We miss all that good music. It's been on iTunes for a while. Welcome to the party, but I will say there is something that is special about Miami Boys Choir. When you listen to it, I don't know about you guys, I know exactly where I was, what year it was, what grade I was in when that song came out. There's something very nostalgic about their songs, the ability to take you back in time. I love it. I'll I'll match you and I'll actually up you by telling you not only does it transport you into places and times where you first heard the songs, but you know, I don't know, my age, we know a number of those singers and soloists in them. They were on those albums, right? Yeah, yeah. Did you listen Do you remember the Don't Talk, Just Daven? So, you remember how that song begins? Don't Talk, Just Daven. Yeah, who did it? Baruch Hashem. And you remember this very high voice that says, "Baruch Hashem." It's my buddy Shai Stern. That's the Baruch Hashem. Yeah. Some are Some are members of Boca Raton Synagogue. Some members of our BRS, we've got some members, we've got some prominent members who were members. Moshe Shacket, absolutely. My brother-in-law, Moshe Brookstein, was a member of the Miami Boys Choir. Were they ever based in Miami? I was thinking about that today. I was thinking on the on the way to school. I'm like, "Why they call Miami Boys Choir if all these boys are from Brooklyn or New Jersey?" It's It's time we had on Yeruchemiel Begun. It's time. First of all, you'd have to pronounce his name correctly. It's Yeruchemiel Begun. But I said that. I just don't want I want to make sure we don't insult him. Want to make sure we don't insult him, that's all. This is exactly the conversation where people are like, "Why'd you advertise you're bringing on a guest and then you guys just talk about stuff before he gets on?" We We get two kinds of emails. Almost always from family members, but the emails say the following. Half of the emails are like Half the emails are, "What's with the banter? It needs to be organized. You need an agenda, an itinerary, talking points. You got to be a real show." And And it's really all about the guest. And And the other half the emails are like, "Why do you even bring guests? The best part are when you guys just talk, when you let your hair down, proverbial hair down." We're We're two and a half way We are two and a half way on the way to no hair to put down. So, anyway, we get we get both sides. Are you getting ready for that big haircut before Pesach? So, here's a question for for you, Rabbi Moskowitz and Rabbi Brody. Which is a more stressful time of year, before the Yamim Noraim or before Pesach? As a rav, which is more stressful? Very different types I'll I'll take this one first. I find them very different types of stress. I don't find that Again, I don't give Shabbos Hagadol Shabbos Shuva, so I have to acknowledge that up front. So, maybe your answer would be different because of that. But I don't find that the holiday, the rabbinic responsibilities on the holiday of Pesach itself is what's stressful. It's drashas, it's shiurim, nothing too much. The weeks beforehand, though, are so overwhelming with text messages and WhatsApp. I don't know about you, but people are WhatsApping me from stores 24/7. Your phone is exploding all the time. Often times, they're questions that could be easily searched on OU or CRC. But But that's the stressful part. It's very overwhelming. There's a lot of information. Yamim Noraim, you're balancing the obligations of There's like a Rosh Hashanah drasha and a Yom Kippur drasha, which is definitely a weightier type of drasha. And also, your your focus intensely on personal growth. So, you're balancing personal intensity with, you know, wanting to come up with drashas and shiurim that are really going to inspire people and set the agenda for the year. So, they're different types of stress. One's more of like a busy trying to get back to everyone, making sure you're getting responses to everyone. And one's more balancing your own personal growth, your own personal introspection with, you know, wanting to come up with with really inspirational drashas. I agree. I think that's an accurate description. They're each overwhelming in their own way. I would I would differentiate a little bit differently, not not to disagree, but just to add that before the Yamim Noraim, it's an internal preparation because there's a lot of seating in the chazzanim and the and the ba'alei kriah and the ba'alei tekiah. It's internal, a lot of details. You got to make sure that when the people show up and they just have the privilege of showing up, that it's all right. Pesach has a lot of that external, like you were saying. You got to sell chametz. You got a billion shailos coming in every direction. You got to make sure that you're covering your responsibilities in your own home. You got to prepare drashas and or a Shabbos Hagadol drasha with it. So, there's just a lot of internal, external. I think they're different in those ways, but But both of them are about trying to get yourself and your family ready while serving the community. I just wanted to follow up our listener. And if you're listening to the podcast later, first of all, don't forget to rate and review. But if you're listening, check out on YouTube because you'll see that Rabbi Brody does in fact change his outfit depending on the guest. But he does more than that. He also changes his background. And I don't mean a virtual background. He literally, and yes, shul cynic, literally changes his background. So, when we had on When we had on Naftali Bennett, we had an Israeli flag behind Rabbi Brody. And tonight, but for Sruly Besser, although I don't think he'll be impressed, Rabbi Brody, tonight Rabbi Brody has behind him on the one wall a picture of Rav Zalman Auerbach and in the bookshelf, a Kovetz Shiurim. So, Rabbi Brody, do Is there Is there a shtickel from the Kovetz Shiurim you want to share with us tonight? No, but I will share that this picture is actually This is a custom job right now. It was made by a friend of mine when I was in Torahs Moshe, Ari Kohn, and he signed it on the bottom here. And um he drew this gold uh design around Mm. This is all from from Minchas seminal in base. It's all base. Wow, that's an That is pretty That is very special. That is very special. We have another one on the screen right now. your previous question, which do you get more geared up for, Shabbos Hagadol or Shabbos Shuva? Um I'd say they're different. We're impressed, Rabbi Brody, we're impressed. Shabbos Hagadol and Shabbos Shuva are very are very different. And they This is my my perspective. There's no There's no one way or right way to do it. Every rav, every rabbi figures it out, their style, their rhythm, their theme, how they do Shabbos Shuva, how they do Shabbos Hagadol. Um One one person who I feel close to and love who lives elsewhere um told me that he saw the topic for our Shabbos Hagadol drasha was very excited. He said, "I'm also super excited about my rav's topic. Let me send you." And he forwarded me Drasha Shabbos Hagadol. You ready for the topic? In quotes, Pesach Shechal B'Motzei Shabbos. That's the topic. So, I'm not I'm not knocking it. In fact, that's probably much more authentic. I think the way Shabbos This is not the time to go through it, but in fact, in in in until recent times, rabbanim only gave drashas twice a year. I know right now we're going to hear from a lot of people who'd like to go back to that. I got it. I got it. Go back to that. Okay. But they they spoke twice a year. Shabbos morning. It was Shabbos Hagadol Shabbos Shuva. They give Shiurim. They paskened. They Rabbis were very busy in other ways, but they only gave two talks, two major talks twice a year. Um so for me there's a big difference between the two. Shabbos Shuva I try to focus on personal growth. So you know, we've talked about um extreme ownership. We've talked about a commitment to Shabbos. We've talked about different themes that are about how we define how we see ourselves, who we want to become and how we get there, what are the obstacles and and how do we get around them. Shabbos Hagadol is a little bit more of a and obviously there's a lot of Torah in both. I try to have a lot of Torah in both. Shabbos Hagadol is more of a Torah topic and um and then from it emerges a uh sort of sort of state of state of the union for the community. A charge, a mission statement, the community and some thoughts about reflecting on the community which is made up of the individuals in it. That's what we're going to do this Motzei Shabbos. Thank you for asking. 9:00 p.m. this Motzei Shabbos on the YouTube channel. You can come live at the Boca Raton Synagogue or watch it online from the comfort of your couch, which makes me wonder why you would come in person. Um so but we're going to talk about we're going to talk about reflecting on Corona and having been apart and what it will mean to come back together and why we should come back together and why that's important and how we do it. Rabbi Moskowitz and I are going to be doing a live commentary on the uh on the chat? On the chat, yeah. Why why are you why are you giving the drasha? I'm on record. I think something will be lost by having your cell phone in your pocket during the Shabbos Hagadol drasha. There was something special about Shabbos afternoon. I get why you're doing it Motzei Shabbos, but as the listener there was an aura in the room that that I am nervous will be will be missing. But I will but I will I will I will I will add to that that again it's not false flattery. Anyone knows your Shabbos Shuva Shabbos Hagadol drasha are phenomenal. I know personally even though I'm a Rabbi in the community I'm also a consumer. I get to listen to you. That's one of the privileges of my job. But they're amazing and they're really inspiring and there's a reason why so many people come out. It's it's an opportunity for our whole community to come and learn together. The diversity of our community, different age groups, different affiliations, different levels of observance and it's a really beautiful scene. I I give the credit to the community who have forever seen Shabbos Shuva and Shabbos Hagadol as a community learning event. People who don't ordinarily attend, people who learn a lot on their own, people who never learn, people who are very happy in their segregated segments of the community. But the community has responded. You know, I always thank everybody. It's the opening line of the each of those drashas is thank you for being here otherwise I would be standing here all alone and it really is a beautiful sight to see that of our eight in non-Corona time Shabbos morning eight or nine minyanim everybody comes together. So there's twice a year on the calendar we can we can be together, which is great. Now newcomers to the community don't get the full experience and I'm going to make Rabbi Goldberg tear up a little bit right now, but there used to be a very very very special person in our community, Rabbi Klein, um who used to get up and make the announcement before both Shabbos Shuva and Shabbos Hagadol inviting everyone to the community. And while we have another esteemed member of our community now make the announcements, Dr. David Wolpe, it's not the same. Rabbi Klein was uh was really one of the Lamid Vav Tzadikim. He was a very special Jew. And that also had such an impact on the community when he got up there and gave Hashivas to the Rav and encouraged everyone to come and to participate, that that contributed enormously to the aura, to the atmosphere of these two drashas. I love when he would say he would say that he reviewed the sources. You know, he would encourage everyone to go and look at them as well. He was a he was a Holocaust survivor. He had an illustrious career as a Rav himself in Montreal. He he had Smicha in Montreal. As a survivor he came to Montreal. He wasn't going to actually go into the Rabbanus, but there were a group of uh people, I think survivors, who surrounded him and uh kind of pushed him into it and he he had a PhD from McGill, but he ended up going into the Rabbanus. Wow. And um and yeah, absolutely. It was a it was very it was very moving and I'm looking forward to it. Get butterflies. I get nervous, anxious, all It's not it's not nervous that you're nervous. It's more there's there's an a butterflies and an anxiousness that you put your heart and soul to something and you are excited to to share it. I want to bring our guest on momentarily. Very excited that he's agreed to join. Wasn't simple. Um but really happy that he is uh here. We're going to get to the update on the agunah situation. And uh last week on Friday I met with Meyers Leonard, the member of the Miami Heat, who um said that terribly terribly offensive, unfortunate comment in a gaming situation. Uh we had the opportunity uh to meet. I'll tell you the background of that circumstance. And um you know, he didn't ask me to share, but I asked his permission if I could share about that conversation. We've been in touch um since then. So we'll get back to that afterwards, but it's really an honor and a privilege momentarily to welcome on Sruly Besser. He's a contributing editor of Mishpacha magazine and all the comments and texts I got today that were like busy, I I was on the cover already. I don't need to bring anybody on. I've been there, done that, no favors needed. I'm the monster. Everybody knows I'm the monster. Brody's angle for the next cover. Yeah, I think we should have a behind the bima on the cover. I don't think they've ever done that before. They have not done that yet. We'll see how tonight goes. We'll see how tonight goes. But Sruly's a contributing editor to Mishpacha magazine. Frankly, that's not even the primary reason uh we're having him on. We're having him on because he has written biographies that you cannot read those biographies and and not be transformed and be somebody different. He wrote a biography on Rav Freifeld, Rav Meir Zlotowitz, Rav Carlebach, uh the Chasam Sofer, the Tosher Rebbe, Rav Leizer Gelzal uh He wrote a book Just Love Them, Rav Dovid Trenk, a sefer, a book Nishmas. He has uh written uh incredible, inspiring books. And uh we're going to have the opportunity and privilege to be able to speak to him about that and so much more. It is a privilege, Sruly Besser, to welcome you to Behind the Bima. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. I have to say, talking about covers, you have a very photogenic group of Rabbis that happens to be uniquely photogenic. We we have something special. It's the Florida shine. It's the Florida shine. get this kind of Sports Illustrated matzah with the three of you. We'll we'll figure it out. We're ready. When you when you write the article biography on Rabbi Moskowitz, he will be very photogenic. Photogenic on the cover, no doubt. No doubt about it. So we appreciate it. You know, Thank you. Yeah. Um you've you've come through for us many times in the magazine, even last minute. So I'm really repaying a favor. It's it's a pleasure to be able to do this. Well, if he's ever busy last minute, you can just call me. It's fine. Yeah. Sruly is a prolific author, everybody knows, and often he's on the other side of the microphone interviewing people. Uh you don't see him being interviewed very often at all. And it is a favor that he's doing by being on. I knew I'd get him when I said, "Come on. I want to be able to promote my favorite new Haggadah, the Chasam Sofer Haggadah." I sent him a picture yesterday that my wife, every year she gets me a gift for Pesach. This was the Haggadah. I didn't I didn't prompt her. This was the Haggadah that she ordered, presented to me yesterday. I sent Sruly a picture and I got him on by telling him we're going to promote the Haggadah. Best new Haggadah out there. Everybody should buy it. Where can they get the Haggadah, Sruly? It doesn't have to be best. It just has to be good. Baruch Hashem. They're all wonderful. A lot of nice a lot of nice Haggadahs, baruch Hashem. Chasam Sofer doesn't need me to advertise his timeless and enduring relevance. Baruch Hashem. I think that that uh it's the right Haggadah for this year after 2020 2021. Uh coming from where what we just you know, the year we've undergone collectively. The message of this Haggadah is is very very special. Where could they get it? Uh certainly on ArtScroll.com. And I would imagine in Jewish bookstores everywhere. ArtScroll's distribution is fantastic. They get it they get I'm shocked where they reach, how quickly and how efficiently. Amazing. Amazing. So Even Montreal. Even even in Montreal. That's wild. I forgot I promised somebody I was going to not say You know, we get unsolicited feedback after every episode. And one of the unsolicited pieces of feedback I got from somebody very close to me was, "Stop saying amazing." So I I'm going to make an effort to not say amazing. That doesn't mean I don't think what I doesn't mean I don't think what you're saying is amazing, but I'm not allowed to say it anymore. It just one amazing. One amazing covers it all. So Sruly, as I was saying, you know, you're not often interviewed and I think one of the remarkable things about you is that you don't make it about you. You make it about other people. That's what you've dedicated your career and your life to. Writing biographies and making it about Torah, making it about other people, making it about their story, not your own. So for that we're very grateful that you're willing to be on it share with us. So let's start from the beginning. Uh I don't mean the beginning of time or even the beginning of your time, but for the beginning of your writing career. When did you know you had a gift for writing? How did you get into writing? Um how did you train as a writer? Talk to us about your your history, how you became this prolific author. Well, that's very kind of you. Uh the story starts like most stories or many stories where where big believers in camp. Perek camp, extracurricular, you know, cuz people go through the beautiful, functional, you see the system. They don't always they don't get to access maybe those extra talents that they they know they have. I should mention that I have five sisters. I have no brothers, which it seemed like a cruel fate for most of my life. But at a certain point I started to realize as I got older especially that I'm able to do what I do because I I grew up with people Is it okay to say that? There's a lot of talking in my house. Just talking and talking and talking and talking. And at a certain point you find Express yourself. I appreciate that. So So there there was just a lot of expression and and everything was being talked out. There really wasn't you know, there was no one to play ball with. So it just became survival of the fittest. I realized later in life that the that the Ribono Shel Olam was giving me an opportunity I guess to develop a whole a set of department of personality that most guys don't get to Nobody in the dorm was talking about how they were feeling. It just wasn't wasn't a thing. Was supper good? It wasn't good. Good night. Sleep well. Right? I hear all right. I'll come home and people were so so communication was important. My father, my grandfather, not sure if you're familiar with him. His name was Rav Oscar Besser. He was a Sure. great man, great leader, and a great writer. Sure. Uh he wrote prolifically. About our year time, Yiddish, Hebrew, English, German. He he was multilingual and and and a brilliant man. And a great writer. My father as well. They're they're all very very gifted communicators, especially in the Torah. So I guess it was something I grew up with and then you go into camp in the summers and and having opportunities to write stuff like that to write songs or team songs. So it just became a thing that people people came to me. Could you write a song for this and I enjoyed it. I remember in the early years in Kyle people would come to me on their anniversaries with the card and they were like dear, you know, you know, whatever what you know and then the master like could you could you just do this for me? I was like create an app I'll do anniversary cards for you. But that's a great business. Yeah, right. Anniversary cards for the desperate last minute husband. So it was always something I did. I I moved back to Montreal after a couple years in Nacho Straw and I was in Kyle. And you know, the nature of the beast is that I had to also do things like buy the filter fish for Shabbos and live. So that you need money for that. So I somebody came to me and said the Yated had a had community pages. So Kyle I'm sure that they cover Boca now all the time. You know, you guys building there what you're doing. But at that time Detroit, Cleveland, whatever you know, so they said there's no Montreal page would you want to do a Montreal page? I said yeah, sure. It was easy I could do Ben and I it was money what every week and I got a digital camera and I would like go to Malava Malkas and take a picture of that table and who spoke and you know, like you say amazing everything was inspiring inspiring speech everybody was inspired everybody was so inspired all was inspired week after week, you know, 900 words of inspired. But I I again I realized that I enjoyed it and I something very interesting was happening which was that the Orthodox community was creating its own media at the same time. You know, there was no Mishpacha magazine when I started it Mishpacha magazine is 15 years old I'm writing for about 17 years. And and then Mishpacha magazine and I saw it just impressed me. I saw the first issue as a reader and I was I wasn't on staff I just I liked it. I thought it was impressive. I thought it was sophisticated. I liked the graphics and I saw what they were trying to do. And I knew that the demand was there for good readings. I know we bought we bought I like to read. So we had Time and Newsweek we had anything we read Digest and there wasn't much that was appropriate at a certain point ideologically and certainly in terms of what you're looking at it wasn't maybe the best fit for a firm home. But we didn't have anything else to read and we were desperate for quality reading material. So I was in Nacho Straw. Like a year year and a half after Mishpacha was founded I went to visit somebody and I walked into the office off the street I said can I can I work for you? I can write. You know, more or less they said send the samples. It's you know, I went I started there. And I was never planning to write a biography. It wasn't something I thought I could do and Reb Freifeld G.I. Tzedaka came in the then editor Mrs. Safran Feigel Safran asked me, would you want to write a article on Reb My favorite it's my favorite one, sorry. It's it's it's it's a very special book. He was a very special man. Again, when I talk about these books it was a I got lucky cuz I got the assignments of the people who You when you tell a story of a life of a Rav Asher or a Rav Shteinman or whoever, you don't have that joy of uncovering something cuz people more or less know the basic storyline and they've heard a lot of the stories. When you write about Reb Freifeld or Reb Trenk and everybody in between there's a big thrill. Writer gets to use a gimmick so to speak and it makes me look good but I really don't deserve that. It's really the fact that these people were just so I I I felt a big big connection to Reb Freifeld. I had a good friend with his grandson. I'd been in the Dira with him in Nacho Straw and anything I heard about him just got me drunk. Every story meant something to me. I you know, I had friends who had grown up in his community. So for what the Yated I threw myself into an article. I think I got paid for the article probably 250 dollars or 300 dollars. I worked probably 30 hours on it. It was just completely I got lost in it and my wife was and continues to be the greatest asset in my life allowed me that time. You know, we were in Kyle with little children and she she saw that I was in love with this and she just let me go. And I I if there was another another Talmud that I can get to I would call. I would turn over every stone. Because it was just a it moves me now remembering those days and the man. And then the book came out and and it sold 100 it's maybe it's ninth printing or tenth printing. I would I had never written a book before. And the marketing wasn't wasn't super marketing job and I don't think anybody heard of me and not that many people heard of him at the time of Reb Shlomo's passing there were maybe 30 guys in Chicago. It wasn't he didn't leave over like what did he leave over while you he left over little Yeshiva on Central Avenue that was you know, on the wrong side of town and eventually moved. And the book went the publisher wanted it to go and it it was time and I I learned a lot of things from that. I learned that somebody doesn't have to die a biography doesn't have to come out a year later. If the story is a good story and you tell it in the right way that people will connect to it because people are essentially interested in growing and as long as you don't bore them or lie to them or patronize them or cheapen the story then everybody is a book. You know, and and you know, I wanted to do that. I knew that that's what I wanted to do essentially with the rest of my life. And the Galtzel was an excellent chance on me Reb Michel Twerski in Milwaukee. I had gone to Mishpacha my wife and I went for Shabbos on a Mishpacha assignment. I don't know if you know him. You need to have him on your show. Yeah, sure. He's remarkable. He's he's remarkable. His Torah, his music, his outreach, what he gives to the community, what he built in Milwaukee and his devotion to his people. This is something you could probably appreciate it's off topic. Do you mind that I'm just rambling? No, we're enjoying so far. When we start when we stop enjoying we'll let you know. I appreciate that. He he once told me the Milwaukee community is not huge. It's about 150 families and he once told me that he feels he knows that he could have a much bigger community but he feels that when you make somebody from when you bring someone to religion it's not just your job to get them to put on a black hat or whatever your goal is you need to make sure that their chinuch is okay that their shalom bayis is okay that they're raising their kids in a healthy productive way that they're marrying off their kids in in a way that works for them. He says I got to give them everything. This is a lifetime commitment. Every single family in here is a lifetime commitment. Once I made up their mind forever. And that's how he runs his community. That's just off topic about him in Milwaukee. Remarkable. Freezing. Freezing. Worse than Montreal. Freezing place but but beautiful. And his son Reb Galtzel he had died young at 46. And they had wanted a book. And I I was open I was wide open and I had done Reb Freifeld and in a way Reb Galtzel was a very similar story to Reb Freifeld just in a Chassidishe version. That means a lot of the same completely open to doing things his way completely innovative and fresh and alive. And the main common denominator in love with being Jewish. In love with Yiddishkeit. You know, not exactly the same Yiddishkeit coming exactly from the same sort of school but in love with Yiddishkeit. So I did that and then you know, from then we evolved Baruch Hashem. There are so many questions to ask you as a follow up and and I want you know, the other Rabbis have questions too but on the genre of biographies I want to tell you Tal Ben-Shahar who was a professor at Harvard and taught the most popular class in Harvard's history on happiness. He's an Israeli and he's done all the research on happiness. He spoke on our show several years ago and in the question and answer he was asked what book to what books to read to to be the most inspired and one would have thought he'd talk about self-help genre. He writes on happiness. He's an author in that genre. He's a career from it. And he said that's not what I'll tell you. You got to read biographies. If you want to be inspired you want to be happy in life read biographies. And he talked about the power of a biography much more than a self-help book is reading someone else's biography. So your the biographies you wrote are are nothing short of swaram mussar swaram and and and really hashkafa swaram and machshava swaram and they've been very transformative. The Reb Galtzel book impacted me very deeply. I think it's tremendously underrated. I'll I'll shout out to our friend Reb Ari Marzoff who is in who is in love with that book. He's a he's a middle school Rebbi and it inspires his own teaching and love of talmidim every single day. Reb Galtzel your book my copy is all marked up with the stories that that have inspired me. So the biographies if somebody questions where do you begin when you're researching somebody who do you choose to speak to but I want to go right to the question of what do you choose to include? You know, there's a word that we all learned several years ago hagiography. I don't know if it's a made up word a new word or it's a old word no one knew but a hagiography is not a biography. laboratory in Yeshiva University. Exactly. So so bi- biography is you know, you're telling the good the bad the ugly. You're telling every part of a person's life. A hagiography is here's a perfect person who was born perfect never struggled and I present the perfect package to you. And I'm not talking about your biographies in particular biography genre in the frum world in general are really hagiographies not biographies. They don't tell us about the challenges. They don't tell us about the failures. They don't tell us about the difficult times. In fact there's a powerful part in the Mayor Litowitz book where it does talk about his divorce and and the loyalty of his Rebbi which I was very moved by because one wouldn't think. I wonder if he were a prominent gadol beYisrael and not known as the founder of a publishing company if it would have been readily included as quickly. But I'm wondering if you can comment on that when when accumulating information and when studying the life of these great people nobody is perfect. Nobody's perfect. So how do you bring that imperfection to a book without in any way wanting to hurt the legacy or the family of of the one you're writing about? It's such a good question and I'm so happy to talk about it. I'm sure you're all familiar with the letter of Reb Hutner which is the starting point of every conversation that we we raised our children with the stories of the Chofetz Chaim. They didn't talk lashon hara. We don't we're doing them a disservice by not liking them. But all the years that he developed that man and all the challenges and all the pitfalls. Sheva yipol tzaddik because he fell seven times we have to talk about the falls now. You don't want to only write a book about the falls and the failures of course for two reasons. One is the people who never made it past that hump aren't getting the books. That's just not the nature of it. That's not what we do. And and the second reason is because the the happy ending is what justifies everything that came before it and then you look back in retrospect and all those those hurdles and obstacles and challenges are so much more glorious. And you're doing children and your readers a disservice Jewishly if they can't understand that a failure is not only one of the ways to success, but the only way to success and and to glorify that. I wrote that in Yisroel which is the book we're talking about, but if you tell me any book I wrote, I can tell you about how um what I would be honest with and what I wouldn't be dishonest with, I just wouldn't bring it up because it's irrelevant. I don't think that there's a myse in the world other than it's famously in the book of the synagogue. There's no politics between the rabbis. Every other myse institution, shul on Earth has some degree of cuz human beings when you're involved in that kind of high-level, high-profile position of being a rav, being a rosh yeshiva, there's always little stuff that go in between rosh yeshiva. If you're in yeshiva and you're a student enough and you had eyes and you knew how to eavesdrop, I'm sure you picked up a thing or two, you know, from the mizrach wall. But that's not important to the story because not only is it not who they are, it's not even a reflection of who they are. It's as important to me as the fact that he didn't park his car well or something insignificant like that. It doesn't speak if the person was a person worked on their middos their whole life and evolved into a person who was a paragon of middos in not just in the way that they preached, but in the way they behaved so that it's not important to me. If it is important to me, I'll give you an example. We'll we'll talk to Reb Freifeld. said, I don't know if I wrote it in the book or if I only heard it after, but I've said it publicly many times that his rebbe, Reb Yitzchok was surrounded by tremendous balei kishron, by very bright people. I don't know if you know tell me Reb Chaim Berlin that unbelievably. Not all not all intellectual heavyweights, but all heavyweights. Some of them are musical heavyweights. Some of them are very poetic people. Reb said he considered himself an average average in mind, average in kishron. He said, "When I realized we had a story there that he went to the Chazon Ish and the Chazon Ish told him about different gedolei Yisroel who were also considered of average intellect. And he said, "When I realized that my rebbe was dealing with the caliber of Talmud, but who's going to deal with the average balei kishron? With the weaker balei kishron? That's going to be my I'm going to take over partner and the glory of our partner and this wonder of what our partner built in America, but I'm going to be able to bring that down to guys who maybe aren't natural balei kishron. And and you tell in the book and there were those even though it cost me to say that rebbe wasn't a balei kishron. I'm saying I'm not saying anything that rebbe didn't say about himself. I don't have to be kind with his legacy than he was to his legacy, right? That's not my job. That's a job I could do for a lot of money. We could do revisionism. That's a totally different industry and I'm happy to talk anybody could feel free to ask me the details. You can get that done, but I you know, haven't gotten there yet. And Reb Freifeld, we have a story there. It it's I'm going to I'm going to cry and you're going to cry also. It's a Pesach story. Reb was was the year that his rebbetzin, his first rebbetzin was a remarkable woman. She passed away young. Was sick. And it was Erev Pesach in the house and he and and then and then the wife wasn't there, you know, Erev Pesach. So Chaim Hertzberg, the menahel of Shaar Yoshuv, alav hashalom, he passed away a couple years ago. Very very much a talmid who reflected his rebbe. Came into the house and he saw Reb sitting there and he said, "Rebbe, can I make you a coffee?" He said, "Yeah, bring me some coffee." And he sees that Reb Shlomo's payos are wet. That means he'd been to the mikvah already. He's sitting with Reb and he says, "Can I do anything for you, Rebbe?" He says, "Yeah, I wouldn't mind if you took me to the mikvah. Can you drive me to the mikvah?" So what was awkward is Reb had gone to the mikvah, but he said, "Sure." Talmid doesn't ask questions. Took Reb drove him to the mikvah, drove him home. Came home. Reb is back to himself. He's exuding vitality and simcha and energy and chiyus. And he says, "Reb Chaim, can you make me a coffee?" So he says, "Sure." He makes him a second coffee of the day. Reb is drinking the coffee and he's back himself. He says, "Rebbe, can I ask you what just happened? I came in, you were drinking a coffee, you had gone to the mikvah. We just repeated the whole thing." He says, "Yeah, I'll tell you the truth. I was sitting here and I was depressed. What the rebbetzin so sick. We're parents. We make the Pesach seder. All the years the kids come to us, the grandchildren come to us. This year we're going to one of our children. The house doesn't feel like Erev Pesach. The smells, the sounds, the the the the intensity, the the excitement in the air of a Jewish household on Erev Pesach is just not here. And I was down. And I went to the mikvah and I came out still down. And you made me a coffee and I went back to the mikvah. And this time in the mikvah, this is what I was thinking. Who am I? Am I from Ishbitz? Am I from Shishka? Am I from Breslov? I'm from East New York and I just got to do the best that I could do. And with that thought, I'm ready to come home cuz I'm doing the best that I can do. That's the story. Wow. I just got to do the best that I could do. That wasn't a godol story. It's not a classic godol story, but it's the greatest godol story that you're going to hear this week because he he was making peace with his reality that it's okay to be dejected in that situation. And I'm happy with where Reb put me because that's where he wants me to be. And I'm going to want to Pesach with that thought. So that's a really It's a life-changing story because it's it's very counter to what a lot of the books are going to tell you. That Reb put on music and he jumped up and down and he said, "Okay, you're great. And I'm Reb Nachman of Breslov." No, you're not Reb Nachman of Breslov. You're not Ishbitzer. You're from East New York. I guess it cuts both it cuts both ways. There's the element of do you bring up the ugly and I understand the argument against it. There's also the other phenomenon which is exaggerating things or making it like it's very simple. There's a book on the Klausenburger Rebbe. I read the book cover to cover because I'm a big fan of the Klausenburger Rebbe. And I then spoke to a very very prominent person, very very prominent person who was extraordinarily close to the Klausenburger Rebbe. And I was bothered and I said, "The book says the Klausenburger Rebbe survived the Holocaust and he never once ate non-kosher in the camps." He never once ate non-kosher. He never once had to be mechallel Shabbos. The way he was able to conduct himself and and and the individual told me, "It's just not true. It's sheker v'chazav. It's not true. It is impossible. You wouldn't one could not survive. It is simply an impossibility." And he went even further and he said, "It's a disservice to the Rebbe to say something that's untrue about him as if he was anything less than that great because he had to eat at what he needed to eat to survive. And you motzi laaz on all the survivors who did what they had to do in those camps. So again, there's there's the phenomenon of not needing to bring up failures, not needing to focus or emphasize on shortcomings, but I think there's also the phenomenon of exaggerations and over-exaggerations or distortions because some people feel that one needs to project an image of a of a perfect godol. Anything less than perfection and they're not really a godol." Again, I can't speak for what other people do or or other books. I can only speak for what I've worked on. We've tried to I don't I don't love the term ugly because I don't think anything is ugly. I think maybe the term is human. Right. And we try not to cover that up. Fair enough. I just I want to share a quote from the Reb Freifeld book which is very similar to the story you just told which is that he was talking about how when he was in yeshiva he was surrounded by a group of brilliant near geniuses. And then you write, "And then one day I sat down in a room by myself, my head in my hands, and had a hard hard talk with myself. Quote, 'You are not brilliant,' I told myself. 'You are not a genius nor a near genius. You have to be who you are. You have to start your learning from the fundamentals and work your way up. There are no shortcuts for you.'" "Believe me, the experience was painful. I felt as if a dagger had been plunged into me, but it was my liberation, my personal exodus. That day was the turning point in my life." So I love that. I mean, I've I've used that. I've I've personally reflected upon it many times. But I think that's the humanity that you were just talking about when when you humanize when when you're able to connect to these gedolim and say, "That's something that I can take upon myself." That he had grit, that he worked hard, that it didn't come naturally to him. That's something that I can emulate and I think that's what makes so many of your biographies so so endearing to so many of us. Yeah, I lucked out on people. I got good subjects. It's it's Reb So so where do you start? You have a plethora of information. You have so many people to interview. I'm sure your mind is like running around in circles of angles of what to include and what not to include. Walk our listeners through the process of when you decide, "Okay, I'm writing a book about you know, Reb Trenk or Reb Freifeld." And I'm interviewing a ton of people. You obviously have to develop like a mahalach and how you want to approach and how do you want to develop? How does that play out in your mind? How long does it take? I mean, it must take hundreds of hours. Right. It take it takes So again, you you you do this for long enough and it is at the point you get a feel for There are people who will will tell you their perception of a rebbe or of a parent and it's not always grounded in in truth. I don't mean factual truth. It's just you sense that they want things to be a certain way maybe or they remember things differently than everybody else. So you can't use their stuff. You you have to The first thing is weeding out what's really true and what belongs in the book and what's their perception of something or the way they would want it to be. And these are things you see every day in front of your eyes. You don't you know, you don't need even examples, right? People come home and two people will tell you the exact same thing and one saw one way, one saw the other way. So it's very important to have you can't do a book biography without that one talmid. If he's not a family member, it's it's very complicated and working with the children. The legacy of a godol um the children and the talmidim, they're two different they're not two different camps, chas v'shalom, but they're two different perceptions. And that's that's normal. That's the way it should be. And you need somebody in each camp. Is this does this make sense? So when I'm working on a book, I'll find somebody that I feel is just trustworthy and just gets it. And and usually everybody knows who that person is who is in the orbit of that godol or that subject. And I'll work with them and I'll say, "Somebody told me something that doesn't make sense or why do you think that would be?" You know, I'll just give an example from the Reb Trenk book. Reb Trenk wasn't what you'd call a godol. That means at the time of his passing, maybe there 15 guys in his yeshiva. He had left Adelphia already. He started a yeshiva in Lakewood. It was not a runaway success. Um wasn't even an average success by a lot of people's barometer. But then you read the book and you realize what he was doing there. So I I just had a story with a random story. There was Reb uh Shots Solomon's from the from Pirchei. He was a big leader of youth groups. and I had a story there how he was in Lakewood speaking at a mission Heights about Josh so they drank went out to call Mrs. to tell her that someone had mentioned her husband which is which is a classic he lived he was just this fountain of thinking of ways to be good so his son said it can't be true my father would never leave all someone is speaking he would never get up if someone was speaking at the microphone his cover was to say okay now I don't I wouldn't there but it's possible to me that he's right because it's his father because I know enough about to know that it's unthinkable it's a wall if somebody's middle of speaking he's not getting up he's not walking out of the room he has too much respect certainly not but he wouldn't do it anybody wouldn't do it if it was a child speaking so obviously this now I don't have any evidence that he did it after it just it just makes sense so I'm using that as an example because it comes to mind but there's a puzzle and things start to fit into place place and you understand this works now the last two books are so much easier because I'm writing books about people now that there's emails from and text messages from and so much video footage of I was really a little bit blind I was you know there was some audio very very little video video footage out there not much the Blazer also you know I had emails myself from him I knew him and and it was so he he documented everything was a very very efficient person he got a lot done in a day he built a lot of different people and he expressed himself beautifully so people just sent me emails hundreds of emails so he was telling me his own story in a way it's much easier now than it used to be because the the the truth and not truth is very very very easy to things out if you put together the pieces doesn't that make it harder now you're now you're over inundated with information right I mean if you have every text every email it's much harder to lie now yeah no but I as the biographer isn't it harder for you to sift through the information and to to work your way to a narrative I've been lucky that the people I wrote about I fell in love with and I wanted to do it and I felt that with every book I realized like even if nobody pays me I'm not stopping because I'm I I don't want to leave I don't want to leave you know my my wife and my kids make fun of me they're like okay who's talking this who we talking about this like who just tell me what zone you're in now so we know you know to be ready Yeah just a quick question you know most of the books that are written on are written obviously after they pass away I'm wondering there's so many great rabbis today there's so many of the great you know you call them you call them you know just just incredible that are giving in yeshivas and you know for for all the the sheer my satin on any number of the yeshivas I've ever been to you never really get a taste of who the person is you get their Torah you get there you know whatever it is that they want to tell you on on on whatever subject they happen to be teaching that day let's go whatever it might be right a great sheer but they very rarely let on who they are in terms of family history where they're from it's almost like you get and then there's a fear to ask like I I how did you grow up what did you do what were your thing what would what were you afraid of what where did you fail where did why is it this distance and you only find out about these stories after they pass away you know right so a couple of things one is actually mentioned it's not my book but I saw put out this week a book on from about the live and well which is interesting to me I don't I don't remember too many other books on living figures which is interesting maybe it's a response to what you're talking about now but I know in is coming in twice a year we do a issue which is always wonderful the magazine is is very well received always but as many as we print I know we're going to sell out and it's expected that we you know we give our best stuff and we've been writing on living now for the last 10 years because readers wrote to us why are you telling us when it's too late why do I have to hear about when I can't even go to him for we're moving you know I've been doing it for years now twice a year we find someone who's alive we we shift between America and Israel so that you know not everybody can make it to Israel even before not everybody had the financial means or the ability to get away and everybody should be able to go or take their children or go with their wife in the home of a so I you know we did we're moving in so the last we'll come last and and so on and and whoever will be doing next week some of the magazine the stay tuned but the the reason was because of this now they weren't comfortable with it many of the in question were they weren't comfortable telling you these kind of things so what we did was we developed a kind of work around where we don't interview them it's a profile and they go along with it because they understand that there is a need for people to connect with them right so um if I'm if I'm going to interview you you're not going to tell me nobody's going to be comfortable saying oh I finished you know here was my hardest accomplishment it's not how do it because they really they really are modest that's not just that's not just do it hey geography hey geography I never do it's not that's true that they they don't see themselves as significant but if we do the profile so we go in and we come to the we come to the we hang around the house spend a lot of time talking to their intimate or children and we're able to develop a piece that that we just feel like okay this is somebody who's alive and I get it now I understand why this speaks to me so I guess I got to subscribe to that's thank you I can tell you this if you start you'll never stop okay it is it is so important to publish these articles because people are also exposed to not only their or the of their particular you know area within within from kite but they're exposed to a much broader and they gain a great appreciation for I got an I can't say the word I got a wonderful and inspiring email this week this week somebody listened to an interview I did with early this year and it was walk through his his relationships and conversations in America from his youth until today almost every one of them was basically his telling us which he spoke to them about 50 years ago it was it was as so somebody wrote me an email who says I learned in Lakewood I come from Lakewood world and I never knew but I listened to that interview and you could hear how special he is how genuine he is how humble he is they just wrote me a beautiful they were so grateful to have been exposed forget the was talking about him so one of the things I think that's a great contribution of is is that they're not afraid to expose the readership to a and diverse cross-section of great people which is a great service it is a great service I want to ask you about the readership right right that is true that is true I know that because when I've been privileged to be to be involved at the opportunity and privilege when some of the people I hear from I saw you I read that article I said you get magazine are you kidding me I didn't know that anyway so it is it is shocking sometimes um trying to decide which which direction to go next we've already used a lot of your time you see just ask the thing that you don't that you think you should ask well I was going to I was I was going to ask you I have I have six daughters and a little son so I also struggle part of the reason I speak so much outside my home is I'm not allowed to speak that much inside my home I have to compete so I I related to that when you described that how do your five sisters feel that their picture could never appear in in the magazine that you're a contributing editor of how do you explain it how do you communicate that to somebody I I would say the answer is let I can go with the other I can go with the other question I love this question and I and I can't speak for my sisters and I certainly can't speak for magazine I'm not the decision-maker neither nor executive editor but I've been around for a long time and been involved in these conversations and I can only tell you what I feel um we came into an industry we came into a world I know you had on a couple of months ago and and he's obviously somebody who who this is much more central to what he does he's the boss ultimately of the magazine he owns the magazine there is there are things in the from world that are glorious there are things that are splendid and then there are things that maybe if we could fast about that and change those things we would love to change them maybe it's a certain culture maybe it's a certain style of living maybe it's certain habits that have crept in but the starting point is of all conversation is we love this community this is where we are and there's nowhere else we'd want to be and there's no one who comes close there's no community there's no demographic who comes close to what we have going on so before I address the the the woman the woman's faces issue if you don't mind I don't I want to address the conversation you know let's say your wife makes supper for the kids right you know if if that happens and a lot of them is that is that are we on the premise of this conversation is okay the wife makes supper it should happen in some homes okay so what mommy says she's making chicken and potatoes so it's supper so there's always going to be one kid who says I hate chicken chicken's disgusting I don't want to eat chicken I don't want to eat chicken it's terrible disgusting it's alive it's gross fine so the wife will say okay so you need you know everybody else likes it I like it daddy likes it the kids like it it's healthy it's important I already bought the chicken you can take pizza and put in the microwave you can you can do it after right fine everybody sitting at supper eating chicken and potatoes and the kid who hates chicken says why do you use that sauce on the chicken that's gross that's the worst colored sauce I don't like the way it looks on the chicken so even a patient mother will say listen buddy or listen you're not in the conversation cuz you don't like chicken in the first place you don't eat chicken you told me chicken's disgusting so you're not you don't get to weigh in on the sauce the ones who are eating the chicken should be the ones having the conversation if they like the sauce or not right we allowed the social media discourse I'm not going to be hostile to somebody who doesn't want to be sitting at my table if you don't like chicken and you don't like potatoes, and that's not your choice, your first choice, your second choice, you're at the table eating and enjoying supper, then your views on whether or not the sauce is the right color or not aren't that relevant to me. We all politely listen to you, just like a mother will maybe till she runs out of patience listening to her child talk about it. But you have to earn the right to be in a conversation. Are you with me so far? You know, so we we we saw You don't love the analogy, I'm losing you? I tell I'll tell you why I I don't necessarily we allow social media discourse to be taken over by a bunch of people who are looking for ways to to either They're not happy with the from world. For whatever reason, it doesn't work for them for a lot of reasons. Maybe they themselves are really not that from. I I I'm not accusing people. I'm not thinking of any people names, but I spent a lot of years on Twitter and a lot of years on Facebook responding to every comment, you know, when I was younger and had more time, because I believed that that was my responsibility. You got to put yourself out there. Comes with the territory. And I answered everybody. And I was humbled a lot of times from arguments that convinced me that I was wrong. I wasn't always right. I was still not always right. But I realized that the conversation, that the discourse, you know, somebody once said that the the internet is to rage what a credit card is to debt. That means you don't go in debt because you have a credit card. You go in debt because you're not careful with your spending habits. But the credit card makes it much easier than when you put in the ATM and take out money and you see in front of you and you're always able to keep track of it. The internet makes it very easy to get angry. Where you you're in a shul with a very diverse congregants. You have conversations with people. I'm sure you have people who think that a mask is the biggest mitzvah in the Torah. And I'm sure you have people who think that a mask is ridiculous. And I'm sure you get along with all of them because you're talking to them and you're making eye contact and you know them, their wives, their mothers, their kids, where they're coming from. They know you. They know you're a rabbi and a talmid chacham. So you're able to have a normal conversation. The internet allows for none of those things. So there's no there's no background to the conversation. It's the same usual suspects using. So before I I discuss pictures of women, I want to discuss what pictures of women have become. It's just another tool. It's just another bat, another golf club in your arsenal of ways that you're not going to knock the frum community that you don't like either. And you hate Mishpacha magazine even more. You know why? Because we're successful. Baruch Hashem, we created a viable commercial model that works. We're selling a lot of magazines. We're employing over 100 people. Um 100 people, the vast majority of whom I shouldn't say the vast majority of whom Many of whom have never gone to journalism school. I'm in touch with secular journalists all the time. And they're shocked A, by what by the frum community economy that we're able to sustain the print media. And people are feeding their families. I don't think anybody's wealthy on my end of the table. Baruch Hashem, we're managing nicely. We're doing okay. They're shocked that people read, at the amount of readers we have. They don't have anything close to this. Even those who have bigger publications, with the bigger circulation, have actual readers. People that I could sit with you and you're all Granted, you're all people who come from the world of Mishpacha. You're all more or less familiar with the biographies that people are reading and you're out there. You're very busy people. You're husbands, you're fathers, you're rabbonim. But we do read. We're a community who reads. So I I know that Mishpacha engenders bitterness because we took a model, we ran with it, we succeeded. Baruch Hashem. And if you don't like the frum community, you for sure hate us. There was there was a mistake actually in that No, I'll tell you there was a mistake in your assumption because there are people who love Mishpacha, who subscribe, who read it religiously, but who are frustrated by the one policy that's not I'm talking about Twitter. Well, we're we're We're going to We're going to get to your wife in a minute. I was just taking a step back to address the cause. That that is the cause célèbre of the angry Twitter mob. I don't have that much I don't feel that much of a of a mandate to respond to the same five people who cuz I see the other things you've tweeted about or written about on social media and I see where you stand on 10 other things. You you don't really If I told you, let's just say I wasn't planning to say this, but the Gemara says Gemara Kesubos, assur to be assur l'hanos from etzba ketana of a woman. You're not allowed to derive pleasure from the little finger of a woman if you look at it. If I'm going to tell them that the Gemara says that, they don't want to say, "Oh, the Gemara is terrible. The Gemara is wrong." Cuz you can't say that. They'll say, "Besser made it up. He misinterpreted it. The Gemara lends itself." And then they'll search all night We'll be up all night until they find a source somewhere that says whatever they wanted it to say. You're not You're not at my table. You're not eating my chicken. It's Why do I have to spend my my my time is valuable. So so I Can I agree with you? I I want to agree with you first and foremost that I'm equally frustrated. And and in my own way or we in our own ways have also been victims of of a similar phenomenon. But I agree with you that if you want to make change, do it from inside. Do it behind the scenes. Do it in respectful conversations. And and don't go And change has been made. And change has been made and change continues to be made. Let's go off from a woman a minute. Um you know, you deal You wrote this in a Mishpacha article. There's a lot of people in the frum community in therapy. I don't think that there's a home that there's a parent who doesn't have a child either with ADHD, OCD, mild bipolar, some kind of anger management issue, or some kind of scholastic issue. Nobody. We get credit, not us alone. Frum community media over the last 15 years hasn't stopped. That means giving a a podium to therapists. Making it normal. Now we got a lot of hate mail at the beginning. Why should my kid I mean, marriage isn't bad, but every marriage has moments of tension. And every marriage people fight with their spouses. Guess what? And they hopefully are healthy enough and mature enough to work it out. But these things happen. So till we came along, uh every Tati and Mommy were just chatting amiably all along and everybody was happy on the column I did. Guess what? It's not how it is. So through our fiction and through giving a platform to mental health professionals and through talking about real things. I don't know if you saw the last Family First cover on alcohol addiction and bachurim and the process, which is a real issue and a real problem. And I saw from including in my personal network, people who I wouldn't believe who were taking the bringing up this problem. I'm dealing with with my kids or with myself, uh you know, alcohol abuse in the frum community. So we we we've changed a lot and we continue to change a lot, but we pick Why would Well, hold on. I have to stop you. Why why was that in Family First not in the main magazine? It's a great question. I And I I the the writer, Alana is is a is a outstanding writer. I I assume it's because it was written through the perspective It was the cover story in Family First. Uh I assume for two reasons. One is we're backed up on covers. Baruch Hashem, we have a lot of stuff going on. You know, real estate in the magazine is valuable. There's a lot to talk about and only so many pages a week. And I assume that she was telling it through the perspective of the wife and her role in getting her husband the help he needed, being strong enough to issue an ultimatum, to draw a line in the sand, and to eventually, you know, that story had a happy ending. But I I don't think that she sugarcoats anything in the reality. Two of the two of the therapists that are quoted in that story are from Boca Raton and members of our shul, by the way. So we we feel connected to that story. Um but I I wanted to just go back I wanted to go back to something you said. I I wanted to just go back to something you said for a moment because I I share in your frustration that people who generally are trolls to the community, outsiders to the community, adversaries of the community have to a degree forfeited their right to be critics of this one area because they don't have credibility of appreciating or acknowledging the good part of a community. And I think there's truth to that. And I certainly think there's no value to going to other outside communities to talk about the community they're not part of and criticize it. No change is going to happen from that. But I But the the question that people would push back at you is in terms of the chicken and pizza analogy is when it comes to a civil right issue, you don't necessarily have to be a member of the victim community to want to stand up for a social justice or civil right. I'm not saying that women's pictures in a magazine is a civil right. I've been on record. I've said it. I've said it to you. I said it to Ellie. I think it's a mistake. I don't understand it. I don't think it's historically part of the the mesorah of our of our frum community. So I disagree with it. I'm clear about that. But there are people who think that it's a social justice or civil right issue and therefore you don't have to necessarily be a member of a community They They They think that we're destructive because we're objectifying women and giving in to a So you know, Ellie mentioned it and I hate to go back to the same example he gave, but it's a good one. He mentioned Allison, not Allison Joseph, Jews in the City, right? She came to me. I I brought her to Ellie. And she came in in in It's not just in a respectful way, like I need respect, like she doffed her hat and said, "I have every best interest." She stood up when I walked into the room. That's not what I mean. That means she clearly got what we're doing and she expressed to me another viewpoint which I didn't see, which is like you just said, you know, objectifying women. Where should they see artistic women on our school biographies, publish pictures of women? When they asked him in the book on his wife, they asked him, he said, "Not on the cover, but inside the book you could and you should." So they do it. They put pictures of rabbets in it. In every one of my books Krie Feld all the way down, there's no pictures of women. They they I understand why someone should do it. And I'm going to tell you something else. I even wouldn't have a problem with it if Mishpacha changed policy. I want to go back to my sisters. The answer to my sisters is they got other things on their mind. It's not their biggest issue. It's not what keeps them awake at night. They have other worries. If Mishpacha would start putting in women, there'll be a lot of readers happy and and a bunch of new readers who are unhappy, who feel um Again, I'm not a posek. We went to many many poskim. By and large, I think that probably it's muttar to put in pictures of women. Like I said, ArtScroll does it. Ellie said it's a business decision decision because it'll alienate the the Chassidish readers. He knows the business. He knows the numbers. He knows the demographics. A lot of it. But I I think I'll I'll play with Allison now. Uh here's We we pretty much would do anything. Once we have a halacha, we're not scared of other publications. We're we're the biggest. Baruch Hashem. And we're comfortable in our skin doing our thing. So on our website, we have pictures of women. So So that was a step. But that's because of the efforts of people like her who are respectful, who sat down with us, who raised awareness. They said, "How does it look?" Uh another example, um you know, we had a we had an interview scheduled with Nikki Haley recently, the last couple of weeks. Um it was a it was a deal breaker. You know, she wanted her picture on the cover. So we went back and forth. And we said, you know, when it was Hillary, when we thought she was going to win the week before the election in 2016, we were ready to do it. Cover of Malkhas. It wasn't even a question. If that's the sitting president of the United States of America, then of course you don't alienate. Is Nikki Haley who's a potential candidate and maybe not even a candidate, especially if Trump decides he does Yeah, talk her water down, then have a good day. Is you know, so maybe not. Is that somebody So this is the thing we went back and forth and then the conversation dropped and the interview dropped. It wasn't that exciting to anybody. It's a conversation we're always having about it. But at the same time would you want to be responsible to make the decision to say yeah put in a picture of Niki Haley and then Niki Haley and then in 5 years from now the right store in Borough Park comes in and says I need you to advertise a woman's fur coat but it needs to show the woman's face cuz otherwise you won't see the slope of her shoulders so you won't appreciate it. And then 5 years after that we look like like Vogue. Really? Is that where we want to go? And who's going to take responsibility for that? I'm not sure the slope I don't think the slope has to be that slippery. You're in control of it you're disciplined you're professional. I don't think that slope is that slippery or that you would ever get there. Look at the world and look at the things we're engaged in and look at how things go. I won't mention other there there are other from public ArtScroll didn't ArtScroll's picturing ArtScroll's publishing women's pictures and they didn't turn into Vogue. So there's a way to do it without turning into Vogue. But let's get off of this conversation because it probably makes people upset you upset at me in both directions. No no no it's not a fight it's it's not a fight it's not I like you a lot Rabbi Besser. It's not it's not an argument. I don't think I don't think I'm losing. I don't think I'm losing I'm I'm on record the same as I was before. I think it's a mistake but as you said it's not a deal breaker mistake. I'll even go further and tell you the people who are the most upset about it still subscribe and I call them out and tell them that you got to vote with your feet. If you want to make a statement if their membership if their subscription rather I was thinking membership Mishpacha if their subscription went down you'd see the policy change quickly. The reality is there are not enough people upset or there are not enough people who are upset and willing to cancel subscription. People still love it they add value they have the diversity it's it's being able to bring other social change that they value. So in the end of the day it's not what's doing it. But I want to ask you constructively. I got to say one thing. There are a lot of other people who say that they would like pictures of women cuz they think they do but deep down they're comforted by the fact that there's someone who's standing up for I I wouldn't call it traditional Judaism cuz again I don't know that it's written in Halacha it was just the industry practice before we came along. They're happy that Yiddishkeit that Yiddishkeit endures because people don't change. We're not so quick to change. But let's but let's be honest. But surely if you want to really go if you want to really go there one could argue that the The Chofetz Chaim taught us that we don't have to change you don't have to give in to But surely if you want to really go if you want to really go there one could argue that the advertisements the level of immodesty and its ostentatiousness Pesach programs European trips silver you know what's it called charcuterie boards that the level of immodesty in the magazine in its consumerism and advertising is worse than the slope of the shoulder of a woman who's completely covered. So it's not entirely consistent all the way through. I don't know if I mentioned it I remember you telling me about it but wouldn't it We went to Bnei Brak the whole editorial staff in flat picture meeting. The man the woman everybody came in from Israel. We sat around this table and he he said this he's like you you know you're killing us. You're upping the ante cuz you're enabling them. So he said if the Shiva told us not to do it they can't advertise with them again. For many upscale jeweler in deserve this you deserve that or bugaboos or charcuterie boards or etc. We'll never take it again but you should know they'll probably go out of business. That means or it'll be you know cuz like you know you know advertise the guys who do Mishnayos Yomi maybe and and Kupat Ha'Ir there's always Kupat Ha'Ir in apartments in Israel. The apartments in Israel wait you just took out apartments in Israel for wine? Rabbi Besser then we're pretty much done. You know there's not there's not that much. He says it's a Besser says I have to think about it. But so Eliyahu Eliyahu said It's not a fight. Let me ask you a question. Did she speak at the Agudah convention right? She says yeah. He says but she was at the food at the Agudah convention. It wasn't just a kiddush we're talking about from when you came in Thursday night till when you left Sunday morning. You were not hungry. You know what you feel like after a fast you know 45 minutes after you broke your fast? That's I shouldn't say Agudah it's every convention in the from world it's every simcha of people of means. So why are you looking at Mishpacha magazine instead of So Rabbi Besser said yeah here it was a good conversation look at the from world and consumerism and consumption and there's reasons we can explain maybe we could even understand why totally to do that. A lot of it comes from a very good place. A lot of it is rooted in some Shabbos and some Yom Tov which which is for sure holy. Whatever the reasons are to point the finger at us when we're just look at us as a reflection. I'm not pointing the finger. All I'm pointing the finger is that every community has its selective modesty and immodesty and selective extremism and selective outrage. I don't know if there's an edge running in the from community for chocolates that are based on CBD and you know you know it's marijuana based. We thought we didn't take that. We it was not even a question for Yeah the OU had it in their Pesach guide. I was very surprised. But we didn't take it. They answer to a higher authority. Higher. It's all right. I like that. That's my hashkafa. I'm giving you a laugh my joke is excellent. You never had a rabbi like that when I was a kid yeah. This is this is surely it's it's so much fun and the hour is getting late and we've taken and we've taken your time. First of all you're a Canadian that's why you didn't put Niki Haley on. If you were an American you'd appreciate you would have had Niki Haley on the cover. But But coming back to you coming back to your comment about social media. So tell us more about about that decision. Mishpacha interesting Mishpacha is on Twitter. Mishpacha as you said is on the internet women's pictures appear there. Can social media be used only as a tool to don't give in to the trolls. I I you know I hit and run. I deposit I drop a an article a thought and I don't get into the comments for the same reason as you. You know the the trolls who are there they're just trying to get you in and and you'll never get out and and that's not what is a best use of any of our time. But why did you and this is a perfect time to mention by the way people follow Behind the Bima on Twitter for special clips and special Behind the Bima opportunities Behind the Bima on Twitter. So why did you leave? Why are you no longer engaged in those ways? my personal Twitter account Yeah yeah can't can't you use it in a healthy way without giving in or without entering those conversations? I think that what what I felt was you know imagine a debate between two people and one person has the microphone on and one person has the microphone off. I I felt like there was a debate going on and and worldwide Orthodox Judaism being called to task and only one side is speaking the other side is not being heard at all. So earlier on I saw it as a personal shlichus you see I'm a little presumptuous that way. I'm going to be the guy who speaks in the news so I'm going to explain it. Then I I really engaged with everybody. I want to give you a recent example. There there are a couple of very loud people on Twitter and I follow what's going on who have made it who they viewed COVID that was going to be their COVID is their opportunity to chareidi bash and they make sure to tell you one out of every three posts oh I'm really chareidi this is the community I love and I only do this cuz I love Yiddishkeit cuz I love Judaism and you are falsifying Judaism. One of them has some kind of a medical professional wrote she had written an email to the magazine about vaccinations before COVID struck and she wanted to do write an anti-vax article for whatever reason our editor a family person Rabbi Besser rejected the article could be any one of a million reasons. Mishpacha has no position on anti-pro-vaccination but I'm fairly certain that every single person vaccinates their kids on staff. That that that's just based on my informal in-house data. Nobody has an anti-vax agenda for sure. But she didn't want to go there for whatever reason. Maybe it was business maybe she didn't like her quality of writing maybe it was the timing. So recently in an attack on Mishpacha this woman on Twitter shared the emails from Bassy to her. So under the guise of traditional Judaism we're falsifying you being over on any number of an asked about sharing Rabbi Besser's side. You're you're sharing emails from somebody with their name Rabbi Besser Rabbi Besser Rabbi which is a form of lashon hara like this tells us like the Gemara tells us it's tongue. If you Can I can I have 30 seconds? I I it's fun to do this Can I say 30 seconds? Now now you ask? Can I say 30 seconds Rabbi Besser? I want to do this Rabbi Besser. Sure. 30 seconds. Rabbi Besser Chazal that Tamar and Aishes Potiphar were both l'shem Shamayim. Tamar was l'shem Shamayim when she lived together with Yehuda and Aishes Potiphar saw in the thing that she was destined to live with with Aishes Tzadok which was right to her her daughter who ended up marrying Asnath married Yosef. So why do we remember Tamar as a tzadekes and Aishes Potiphar as the opposite of a tzadekes? They both meant l'shem Shamayim. Good question? Good one. So I asked my rabbi he said that because what happened when they didn't get their way? Tamar didn't get her way. She really meant l'shem Shamayim. She lived with Yehuda cuz she wanted to be the progeny to come through her. She saw it wasn't going her way you know what she did? She submitted to God's will said okay I tried. I thought this is what Hashem wanted she even married to die and ultimately she didn't die. Aishes Potiphar went crazy. When Yosef said no no no no and her l'shem Shamayim wasn't working out she lost her marbles and she went you know and accused him of whatever she accused him. If you're l'shem Shamayim then there's a way that people who are l'shem Shamayim behave there's a way that people l'shem Shamayim talk and there's a way that people l'shem Shamayim accept defeat. I've accepted defeat many times in these conversations I can give you examples if you want of things I wrote that I wish I wouldn't have cuz people on Facebook explained it to me. But this is not the people who are l'shem Shamayim don't go on Twitter and share emails that attack and stop and they don't and they don't stop. So I realized the issue is not with Mishpacha or with Sruly Besser it's with themselves. Whatever is going on in their life and I just felt bad. I don't have to be if you're having a bad day I'm really sorry for you. We're not your whipping boy. Call them. So I closed my Twitter account. Why I keep Mishpacha it's on me it's me with a group of people who share the handle because that's the job. I think that you have to be out there if you're a media presence especially we engage with a lot of secular politicians and a lot of secular people a lot of non-Jewish people and they check that. What's your next biography? I I have one that I'm working on but at some point Rabbi Ephraim Goldberg's story is important to me I'm saying. Well if you need a Talmud interview about it I'm happy to share. I got some good stuff. I probably know him better than his wife. Will you have will you have a chapter called my defeat to Sruly Besser in Behind the Bima? No I think that I think that I have other rounds though. I'm working on a biography now, but as it so happens, I never did this before, but I think it has the potential. What we're trying to do for Schlemiel did for this could do for the world of laymen. It's the biography of Paul Myer Aigman. It's just a story of such dignity and such integrity and such the the role of a wealthy baal habos in Klal Yisrael. It's I don't think that Klal Yisrael in history I don't know enough about it to last to say numbers. We tried the biggest baal habos stock in history. Zimerman who gave out hundreds of dollars through the '80s and and with with such humility and and none of the you know you hear a lot there were not a lot of demands made from him. Very very not flamboyant. And something I'm working on for a long time. I'm excited about it. I I hope to have that soon in the show. We're looking forward to it. We're looking forward to it. Can you give us a preview of the Pesach edition of Mishpacha? Anything people should be looking for? So we we don't like to talk about what's in the magazine until it comes out because uh we've been burnt in the past on doing that. So I would rather uh Hm. I would rather we're doing a feature on Lance Desta. Monsters in the rabbinate. Monsters in the rabbinate. Monster. Monsters in Monster among us. Monsters in the rabbinate. Monsters among us. And another one on the two on the five top five in Klal Yisrael. You know, I have to thank you Rabbi Desta because we we were really debating what to go with our Purim edition of our of our shul newsletter. And then once the cover of Mishpacha came out, it became very simple for us. So I really appreciate it. I'm always Thank you for that. Thank you for that among other things. For your I I I have to say in the whole book I I've seen a lot of people shouldn't say frustrated from covers, but we've had over the years people use that picture. You get wrong angle of me. I don't like the way this looked. You handled it so graciously. A mix of real bitachon. Your initial reaction was that I'm I'm serious now. This is not a joke. No punchline. And real graciousness. You know, wasn't I wasn't thrilled with the way the cover looked at it. And but the reason it came out that way, you handled it like a pro. R' Shmuel I'll tell you that I didn't really care. To me it was all about getting the conversation started about the topic of the article, which it has. Do we still have the Cal Ripken streak going by the way? Is that still happening? Letters to the editor? How are we doing this week? you had a very nice run, but sometimes you have to give Cal Ripken what they want. Okay, fine. We had you know, what we would share with me every week. Don't be that guy, please. No, no, no. Listen, I'm just curious. Still going? Nebach, you know who helped me the most? Nebach on the boy who wrote in explaining why he needed the girls' pictures. Nebach on that boy. I love the conversation. I love the I love what he said. I love it. I loved it. I actually Yeah, sure. He said he said an interesting point. He said an interesting point, but he wouldn't have said it with his name. That's also an interesting Have you debated the policy of allowing all these anonymous letters? If somebody's not willing to put their name to what they're saying, how much value is there to it? It's true. But look at this bochur in shidduchim. He would never say that. He said something and he spoke for a lot of bochurim, I think. He angered a lot of other people, but he but he raised a good point. You know, he kept the conversation He kept my streak alive, I'll tell you that. So for that I for that I thank him. Rabbi Shmuel Besser, thank you so much for spending your time with us well beyond what we asked. You guys are great. Yeah, we had we had a great time. Thank you so much and we'll keep the conversation going. Thank you so much. We look forward to continuing. Thank you. Thank you. Well, I'm so First of all, I cannot wait for that biography to come out. Rabbi Brody, you and I have some good stuff. I think we're going to be the students that are going to be interviewed. Yeah, probably. We've got We've gone over time. We've gone over time. Let's finish our other topics. I mean you need a couch to sleep on and uh then we can uh wrap it up and get back to Shavuos Hagadol. He did say that this is the most photogenic group of rabbis he's ever seen. I think he did say that. I'm pretty sure I heard that, too. So two of the topics we wanted to close out on. One is last week we pointed out that Meyers Leonard, who was playing for the Miami Heat, injured for the rest of this season and actually was uh traded today. But um part of the gaming community and in the gaming community where people watch you play a video game, uh he said a terrible anti-Semitic slur. A terrible terrible anti-Semitic word. Um really horrific, really terrible. Was called out universally, unanimously, across the board. But did something I think that was very impressive and that is his apology. We spoke about it last week. Uh I was very impressed by his apology where he took responsibility, took extreme ownership, didn't say I'm sorry if you felt bad, I'm sorry if you were offended. Said I offended. I take responsibility. I said a horrific thing. I'm going to educate myself. I'm going to improve myself. I'm going to take the time to do it right and um and I'm going to try to make the world a better place to learn from my mistake. He said it really well. His person working with him is a childhood friend of mine I've known forever, Matthew Hiltzik, who is a really fantastic individual and um put us together and we had an opportunity to meet last week. We spent 45 minutes in conversation in which Meyers was moved to tears several time in accepting the responsibility and the pain that he learned that he caused to our greater Jewish community and was really committed to be reading books and meeting Holocaust survivors and spending time understanding uh the story of anti-Semitism, the story of the Jewish people. And what I think impressed me most is wants to use the platform that he has uh and the platform he has in that gaming community in particular to work on and bring an awareness to the gaming community of just how unacceptable and intolerable it is, whether it's an anti-Semitic slur or any other slur, the power of language, the power of speech, the importance of the words that we use and to try to bring that conversation to that community in a way that can really really change things. He He He did not meet with me so that I would come on and talk about it. He is not at a point where he's trying to improve his image. I'm sure the cynic out there will assume that's exactly what it was, but I can tell you having met with him and been in touch with him since then that I really find him to be very very genuine. And and I'll tell you why I raised it. Again, I asked him permission to raise it. He didn't ask me to raise it. Um and even though I invited him on Behind the Bima, he said it's not time. He said I have to learn about the Jewish community privately. I'm reflecting. I need to bear responsibility for this. I'm not here to take advantage of the moment. Why am I raising it? Because I think it's really important to live in a world that allows for forgiveness. There are people who've done unforgivable things and they haven't bothered asking for forgiveness. And those are the individuals that we should be outraged by. But somebody who takes all the proper steps and does everything we can ask of them in asking for forgiveness, you know, even the great Shmuel Besser says he said things maybe even tonight that he regrets or shouldn't have said. We all have and have made those mistakes and I think it's all about how we react to them. And I I think I want to live in a world that that does forgive. I can't speak on behalf of the Jewish people. Nobody gave us that license to forgive, but I can only tell you that I had a very genuine and um really really heartwarming conversation and I hope it continues with him and I I hold hold him accountable to to do the things that he says he will. Is he coming for Shavuos? Obviously I agree with you, but you also acknowledge that there are certain things that are unforgivable. Now, I mean there are certain lines that once you cross, we could forgive you as a person, but the action, what you brought into the world as a result of your action. I'm not saying that is that's the case in this instance. But you would even agree that there are certain which are so heinous, which are so above the pale that, you know, we can't just forgive and we can't just accept and we can't allow that person to just move on. Uh there are teshuvos that deal with I remember a teshuvah that deals with a Nazi who was responsible for the death of Jews who then wanted to convert to Judaism. And it was a question if they met all the criteria, can you reject them from allowing them to convert to Judaism on the grounds that you cannot forgive what they had done. This was a machlokes, a major debate between Elie Wiesel and Simon Wiesenthal. In The Sunflower, was that the name of his book? Sunflower, yeah. Simon Wiesenthal talks about forgiving a Nazi on his deathbed who asked for forgiveness. And I think it was a big debate between the two. So of course there are things that are unforgivable. But an NBA player playing in a gaming community on Twitch, I think it's called, where they watch you play, and he he released a terrible slur. But he right away says that was terrible. I take responsibility and I'm going to learn. I'm going to change. I'm going to grow. I'm going to make it better. And I'm going to use this as a teachable moment. I don't know why we comes back to our biography conversation because that guy in my mind goes from zero to hero. In other words, I'm inspired by stories like that. Because we've all made mistakes in our lives. We None of us want to be known as the, you know, summation of our worst mistake in this world. And so we are inspired by people who make egregious errors and do the right thing and they they try to come back from it and they do it authentically and they do it in a genuine way and they reach out to community and they learn and they That that's what we want from people. So I'm all I'm with you. Matthew Hiltzik is is his barometer of sincerity and truth I trust implicitly and with my life. If Matthew Hiltzik is representing and helping him, then then I believe it and I don't want to violate his confidence, but I'll tell you that again, he was moved to tears when talking about the thought that his children and grandchildren will Google his name and this is what they'll find. And what I tried to say to him was the way you react and what you do with it now, you're writing the next page of Google. You're writing the next search. So if you transform the gaming community, if you bring a message using your platform that calls for greater sensitivity in how we speak, then that's the story that they'll read and that they'll find about you. And that's true for every one of us. It doesn't have to be about him. It is and can be true for every one of us in terms of in terms of how we react. Could we just think of of one thing in that really defines our society? It's that millions of people watch someone else play a video game. I didn't know that that happens. I mean I only know it from my my kids, but the whole thing is so I mean I guess that's what sports are, but at least there you're like in person, you're with people. Here I'm watching you engage in something. No, it's the same thing. You guys are doing nothing when you watch sports. Go play sports. Play. Get on the field. It's an interesting perspective. Rabbi Moscowitz, what do you say to that? It's an interesting perspective, Rabbi Brody. Rabbi Brody who's not a sports fan is saying, what's the difference if you watch a guy who's hitting a ball or throwing a ball versus you're watching a guy who's holding a joystick and playing a game? One is a communal experience. When I'm watching a sports game I don't have a problem with that. also. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. I'm not watching a sports event as an individual. I'm part of fandom. I'm part of Red Sox Nation. I'm part of the Patriots community, right? I'm part of something. You go to a game, you experience it together with people. You have a You watch it with your son. Here, you're watching a guy play a video game that I could be playing. First of all, what do you think about the news that two forces that are so unlikable and evil are joining up together? The fact that LeBron James is going to own a piece of the Red Sox, that's just perfect. That's just perfect for me. But I will let's go to our last topic of the night is getting late and there's a lot of shabbos hagadol yet to do and that is the agunah situation. We organized a rally here in Boca. There was a parallel rally that was organized in Lakewood. Um not to distance ourselves, but we were not coordinating the Lakewood rally, not responsible for what happened there. Uh we're not in charge of it. Um and and and nor did we or I or anyone I know endorse putting up phone numbers of anybody on the internet. There's a lot that's going on that's not necessarily connected or shouldn't be associated or traced back to the even the people who are working on this. Um we're responsible for what's happening in Boca, the mediation, the conversations, the offers, the negotiations, ultimately the rally that we had. And uh I'll just tell you again that um Devorah has extended herself beyond, I think, even reason, certainly beyond what should be expected of her, agreeing to go to the beis din of Aaron's choice on the issues that matter to him as long as he gives the get first and he still refuses, which tells you everything. Uh it tells you everything. So, um we will continue to be there. We're going to announce the next rally and we're going to continue to come back and the weather the heat's about to rise in Boca. Temperature's going to get hot outside and we're going to still rally. It doesn't matter because that's what one does. For a sister, if it was a daughter, that's that's what we do. So, you know, he may think that he weathered the first rally, the first round and therefore now we're all going to forget and go back to our lives and peace will come in the way. None of us want to be doing this. This is the most unpleasurable thing. It it feels yucky and it feels like a chillul Hashem and none of us want to air this dirty laundry publicly. That's why we waited this long and didn't do it, but it's just gotten to a point that how much longer should we wait? Doesn't she deserve to go free? So, we had a large successful rally, a great testament to this community. I'd say 90 plus percent of the people who came yesterday never met Devorah. Couldn't couldn't pick her up couldn't pick her out of a lineup. But they heard there was a call and they answered it. And um I'm proud of our community, very proud of our community for that. And we'll continue to do it. Continue to do it. Great work to everybody. kiddush Hashem at the rally as well. There were individuals walking by, people who happened upon the rally, who were very inspired by the notion that Jews in America can come up and stand against one of their own, Israel recalcitrant, in uh not giving his wife a get, and they spoke very passionately about how inspired they were by the Orthodox community stepping forward in this. And I know he all of us found his speech very inspiring as well. Yeah, it I got an email. There are people who said, "How dare you have invited people to bring their children to the rally? Terrible to expose children to this." And I thought just the opposite. It's terrible we have to do this rally. But once we're doing it, what a beautiful thing to teach our children, you know, like the Israeli army, nobody will be left behind, that God forbid in life if they ever had to confront something like this, they should know nobody will be left behind. Jews stand up for other Jews. We stand up for human beings, that we care about one another. That's that's a very important educational teachable moment. You just froze. Okay. I froze? And on that note, I I froze? No, no, no, just your face. It's okay. I'm here. Okay. On that note, we'll end it right there. Any closing thoughts, rabbis? Pesach, the holiday freedom. Free yourself. Unburden yourself. Break the habit. Yeah. I'm looking forward to this one. You know, normally we do big outreach one. We didn't do it last year either, but I'm looking forward to next year. It's going to be the biggest seder we've ever had at Boca Raton Synagogue. Going to have hundreds of people, but unfortunately, it's not happening this year, but we're going to celebrate with the family. It's going to be great. Beautiful. Enjoy. All right, we'll see everybody next Wednesday night at 9:00. Until then, stay happy, stay healthy, and stay holy.