#167: Behind the Bima - Danny Limor

from Boon Florida this is behind the beima on this episode rabbis Goldberg MTZ and Brody are joined by Danny leore a legendary mosad operative the rabbis delve into Danny's exceptional career exploring his diverse missions such as bringing Ethiopian Jews to Israel and undercover operations in hostile territory Danny discusses the moral dilemmas faced in intelligence work the importance of staying true to one's identity and the evolving presence of religious Jews within the mosad the conversation also touches on Le Moore's recent work with emerging Jewish communities around the world plus one of the hosts has launched a new podcast all this and more behind the Bea welcome back behind the Bea E from Goldberg joined by my dear friends and colleagues Rabbi Philip mosz and Rabbi Josh Brody and it's great to be back together with you we have an amazing guest this evening Danny lemore a distinguished legendary member of the Mad incredible person doing really interesting work today conversation you're not going to want to miss but first hopefully this conversation you won't want to miss R Moscow it's R Brody what's going on we got a big announcement by Moscow you can have Follow by Moscow it's on any podcast player he's giving a weekly share which is amazing three ideas in 30 minutes go on Spotify Apple podcast put in by Philip moscowitz and you will not regret listening in yeah I'm not sure how that happened but I think someone just did it and now it exists so I'm grateful to that friend Steven plater and and we'll see it's nice to be able to put Tor out there that's amazing Brody when are you going to join I I see my problem is I've been like delaying for like something big and exciting I have like four different podcasts in my head they're Torah like Torah ones like I I want to do something for beginners or do some other halaka and I just haven't pulled the trigger yet so it's so easy today it's really so easy today the technolog is there and the equipment's not expensive and there's seamless way to just upload it and you know you know the way I feel we've had this conversation already for many years because I have cynical Rabin colleagues and friends but my feeling is whatever you're preparing whatever you're already giving why not just also share broadly with the gift of technology and it means that someone I I can't I get I get multiple emails a week multiple emails a week that say I was on Spotify I put in the word amuna or I was on Spotify and I came across and now I love or now I listen or now I'm part of the community who's growing in that way together because SP now let me ask you a question because we have had this debate and obviously you're the you're the king of the internet and you've you've done an amazing job of spreading your Torah wow do you not I feel now when I record it's a different experience for the listener and I could feel for the guys around the table on Thursday night when I give the shear it's different when the recorders on they interact with you differently it's a little bit more formal a little bit less informal um is there a time and place for everything would you record everything or there are certain slots where you'd say you know what want to be off record I want them to really yeah there things I every week that I don't record SM is not recorded shabas col is not recorded and posted there are other slots that every week small learning groups that we have uh you're right when it's interactive if you really want to have this sense of of building a small community and and sharing um and then there are others where I don't want to I don't think we should sacrifice the experience for those in the audience but on the other hand it's more of a presentation it's a lecture it's a frontal shear and it's being shared for people who have the energy in the room and there's definitely a difference when you're in a room we all know that you could listen online but you're distracted you're doing 10 other things versus when you're sitting there and present we've had the privilege over the last just the last few shabas alone from to to Rabbi Dr Mayor salv Brown we've had a bunch of speakers and and throughout our winter when you're in that room and you're listening is totally different than when you're playing their Shear on a device so the energy in the room is there either way but yeah different are targeted I think towards different audiences do you think that there are people in your audience that that would like to be called on and for them it's exciting like I'll give you an example back in the day when Rabbi Fran was the only one that was making tapes so sometimes he would record the sheer in our Shear so every now and again he would call on someone just to give an answer there was one or two times in five years Mr Brody what do you and I'm like oh everyone's gonna hear my name on this you think there people that want to hear their name and they want to be called on make it more interactive yeah back to the personality type sh M it's such different on to something because you know we we host speakers some of them are giving over information and some of them um to their credit are they're just masterful Educators know they're not there necessarily to just regurgitate as much information as possible but they're really trying to get your mind to work and they're trying to get you involved and and we get very different feedback some people love that style and you know they're thinking they're answering questions and at the end of the day the speaker may have only spoken 20 minutes out of 60 because he or she's interacting with everyone and then we have other people that come up to us and say I was jump out of my skin like just give me the information I'm an educated person I don't want to hear everyone else's ideas and so there are different definitely different modalities and different people that appreciate different styles there's no question about it and AO Alo I agree with you I will tell you my personal choice when I'm in a shear and I want to hear the person I don't want to hear the people in the audience their their supposed questions are often usually statements or the way they understand they go to a Shear of something they hadn't thought about till they got there the person in the front of the room maybe have dedicated their entire life is the world expert has written 10 books on it but they raised their hand like well I think this or why not that or you're right so when it's a master educator who's bringing out of you and and and helping you think something through and getting you to a conclusion but even then you know they'll ask a question yeah oh that's a good point oh yeah and what do you think and what do you think and you're like let's go you know the clock is ticking I want to hear what you have to say there I'm not saying that I'm right others are wrong could be a personality type too so that's what I know as a as a listener what I appreciate so therefore as a speaker also I you know I I don't especially when you're listening to something online right if you're listening or watching online it's for you want to hear other people you don't want to hear other people you can't even hear the question really and and they can go on now the teachers got to figure out a way of pivoting back or not really or or cutting them off because they're going on and on so I think a a there's some that are interactive students know everyone's name what do you think I'm going to try to bring you from this uh introduction to the conclusion and there's others where it's like I'm here I'd like to present this about a topic and I want to share it and and afterwards I'm more than happy to interact about it yeah you even see that in yeshivas you know they were shim and Wu where it was much more passive the rebi got up gave information you sat there you digested it maybe you reviewed it later on but it was much more of a one-sided experience and then there are yeshivas that specifically don't do that style and it's very interactive and very conversational back and forth and again you see some people like each and it's not just a mlo it's not just a dispute in the teacher but different yeshivas have different approaches also to the best way to educate the the guys that's interesting also because if you look at just taking relli's share which is now 30,000 participants I think it's clear that people are not annoyed by it because his entire the whole the whole modality is interactive everything so even if you're listening and you can't hear but what they do do is when someone in the audience is speaking they somehow raise the volume there must be mics all over because you can hear it's a different type of sound but they are raising something there but it's completely interactive and and and people are interrupting and you know he'll call you out if it's just like like this one guy that I guess is someone that maybe you're you're you a character similar to who you're referring to he's like listen you get one question a month and you just used it like that kind of you know I don't know you're right and I think what relli does is that whatever you're gonna do do it well so if you're going to take interactive put mics in the room so even someone listening feels part of it or also be good at cutting people off making a joke about whatever whichever whichever you're going to do method do it do it well but you know that the D is the perfect example right because you've got youve got the sly fans and the relli fans and you've got RAB Rosa RAB and people gravitate to the do that speaks to them some people want a 20 minute do others people want an hour slow some people want to stay on the do other people want a million explanations some people want someone who presents it and they might as well be talking to a recorder with no one in the room and others want to be part of a community that you read letters and emails and jokes and interact with people and bring in giraffes and whatever El so you know there's no right or wrong with all this it's an alo alo kind of thing I think that's also maybe where I'm I'm getting held up because I'm definitely in the other place I would love to have a live audience and interact so but but I don't know how to do that on a daily basis there's so much I would like to teach there so one at the kiter but I'm saying first I don't only do it two or three times a week he does it you know Dr ophe does the the other time I'm saying like I'd love to do it on a daily daily Bas but I'm never in the same place on a daily basis and it's just that how do you encourage people to come only when you're available you know what I mean so it's well I would say this perfect is the enemy of good and that's butchering the quote I forgot what the quote is but if you're waiting for it to be perfect you're never gonna do it and if you decide you know what I'm starting something once a week I'm gonna do once a week with my built-in audience maybe we have to switch the time of it but I got my once a week I'm gonna post it I'm going to create a broader Community my in-person community and then the concentric circles of community it's going to feel so good you might you might add to it you might you know you might add more slots to it but don't wait for that for it to be perfect I don't think the whole world has to listen to me or listen to you and I don't think we have you know something to offer that everyone needs to listen to but the degree that you think you have anything to offer might as well offer it as widely as possible and find the people who will connect who will touch it people people email you or they you know contact you or tap you from halfway around the world and it it and it means something it's nice you're you're connecting and it and that that's the gift of Technology what I love this is part of bigger conversation definitely for another time but you can try to have an impact and still sleep in your bed and be local in your community and have your primary responsibilities whereas in the past you know if you were a local RV you had your community offline and then if you wanted to also interact with other communities you had to constantly be on the road scholing residence traveling going disappearing compensating and being compensated today you could never travel sleep in your own bed keep your routine meet with your people take care of your community and just whatever you're teaching you're also with the gift of Technology just sharing without going anywhere and you see that that's what amazing why J because there a whole world of people who are doing that and doing it well and they're touching thousands of lives and it's deeply meaningful and it just it creates a greater sense of of like if you've reached that reach more of that because it means something it's part of a community people growing together but anyway all this was a way of saying welcome RB mosit to the worldwide web welcome there MTS to the world of Torah podcasting and everybody not only should you check it out go on Apple podcast Spotify wherever you listen to podcast just put in rabby Philip moscs and you'll find what's it called 3 and 30 three ideas in 30 minutes three ideas in 30 minutes we want you to be in touch with us when you did so afterwards RPM BRS online.org let Reb M withs know which varar Tor you like the most and what it means to you and uh and then email R well Josh Brody yahoo.com you might as well have an AOL account Rabbi but Josh Brody at yahoo.com and let Rabbi Brody know you want him to come online too join the party you want to be able to find him on a podcast player also so gentlemen here's the teaching Torah the greatest privilege and gift in the world exciting conversation with Danny the mo very grateful to our friend Daniel Katz for that introduction for bringing Danny into our lives without any further Ado Danny leore welcome back behind the Bea we're so excited to be joined by Danny leore a good friend of our bokeron synagog community and a huge thank you to our dear friend Daniel cats for making the introduction Danny is a former mosad commander who has traveled the world on missions has advanced the interest not only of Israel but the Jewish people whether it was helping bring Ethiopians to Israel the Red Sea Resort you might have read the book or seen the documentary or the film telling the story that Danny was the commander of Danny your stories are absolutely extraordinary and most recently traveling the world and and finding uh Jewish communities and Jews and converts to Judaism RAB MOS it's RAB bro I'm very jealous recently joined you and Al Salvador was such a community thank you for coming behind the Bea and letting us learn a little bit more about you and your stories okay I'm happy to be with you I know every I mean I know you already from several occasions and uh I feel uh comfortable with you good you are you are at home but let's start you you made Alia from Uruguay you were born in Uruguay tell us a little bit about your story your background when you were a boy growing up did did you ever believe that you'd be living in Israel and not only living in Israel but going undercover for Israel when you were young did you like spy movies and spy books and was that what you were consumed by and that's what you wanted to be or did it just come about well first yes I thought that one day I was going to to live in Israel but you know you're young so you you have to you have to think about the I'm talking about the period when there was no um easy Communications H there was no TV you know in Mont Vio they had hadn't started yet broadcasting TV so you all the news we had about Israel was from those news before a a feature in a cinema you know movie tone something like that in black and white and it was a the the you know it was just the beginning of Israel actually I made aah on the year of baritz of the state of Israel so I was I was a member I was um in a y movement youth movement that you you know B AA which is a religious and Zionist and I I grew up with the idea that all of us all the Jews living in uai would eventually go to Israel and make Ayah and work work the you know on the other hand I there was no there was no Jewish school at the time and I so I was studying in a normal Public School in mono um but I was the only Jew in my class and one of the few in the whole school um so I I never had a problem or any kind of discrimination so it was a dilemma about feeling well there you know speaking my language I didn't speak Hebrew at the time and so I you know we spoke Spanish and I grew up playing football and so on on the other hand once a week I was going to B AA so that kept the alive the idea of going to Israel but actually the trigger for me to go to Israel ER when I was 15 there was a there was a visit in Mont Vio by the the head of the Aliyah Department in the Jewish agency his name wasani was he was a great man did a lot of things before the before the creation of the state went to North Africa and organized the Jewish communities in all of North Africa and so on and so on and he came to a visit to Mono my father was a Zionist activist in the one of the leaders of the Zionist movement in mono and so um he invited him to to have um to come to for us for a Friday evening you know meal after after sh he was in a hotel nearby so he came to sh to our sh and then came with us to eat and so we spoke idish because he didn't speak Spanish and we didn't speak Hebrew wow so yeah we spoke idish which is a language I had to learn in order to speak to my grandfather who came from Poland and didn't speak Spanish and so and so on so I you know idish was so the one question there was a lot of things but one question he kept asking my father what is this young man doing in mono why is he not in Israel you know I am my my head was working my grandfather used to say keep you cop arting you know you you you your head working and I I saw I saw an opportunity I saw it's not that I was you know waiting but I saw an opportunity to go there to go to Israel before my family alone this was something that I I really wanted how many can I just interrupt how many languages do you speak now then it was Spanish Yiddish and not even Hebrew how many languages do you know now we used to speak French at home and um and um my parents came from Strasburg in France in Strasburg they spoke both French and German so when they didn't want us to understand they spoke German so we learned German and you know after that I learned of course English in school and and by traveling and so on and then you know the Latin languages Portuguese Italian are easy when you when you know Spanish and French so then Arabic Arabic was something you needed for for work as they say and and it's it's an important language to know when you live in an area where about 200 million people speak Arabic so so let me jump ahead for a second because you're living in Israel and you're a you're an officer in the Army and the languages you spoke was part of the reason why you got recruited right you got a letter one day in the mail and tell us about that letter and how you actually got recruited to work in the mosad and why being able to speak so many languages and have a French cover was so critical to that you're going already very far um well yeah I was actually I thought maybe one day I was going to study medicine but you know never never came about I also in when I studied in my was he always told me if you if you keep trying you might become a good Rabbi I said no no no no that's better for the Jewish people that I won't be a rabbi so when I was in the Army I thought maybe I'll you know I'll sign up and I uh do a military career and then we'll see what happens but um as you said I got a letter which I didn't have to answer you know it was like almost Anonymous some some mysterious entity called the the the the team for international relations something not known because there was no Google so I couldn't I couldn't check what it was but I'm curious by Nature so I said okay let's go and see and I I met person um later on I I I learned that he was one of the great one of the great Israeli spies if we can call it like that he was born in Iraq and he went to all the Arab countries passing as a Muslim he knew he knew the Quran he knew the Bible but he knew also the Quran he was really a very very um uh learned person and um and so he made a proposition that I couldn't refuse and uh so he said okay this and this and that um so I said okay no problem said but what you don't want to think about it you don't have to answer me now you can take 24 hours 48 hours a week and and then H call me to the to this number I said no I don't have to think it's it's okay I I want that and um he said but you don't you don't want to consult with your do you have a girlfriend I didn't have a time and you don't consult to your with your parents my parents came to Israel two years before or one and a half year before I said no there's no point the answer is yes and so it came about it took it took a long time for them because I didn't do anything I continued being a company commander in the paratroopers H but they it took them a long time to Release Me From the Army because I had a contract and they they they were you know they were not enough there were not enough officers at the time um um so it took about six months or something and uh and then I um yeah did you know that you had ice in your veins did you know that you were ready to go undercover other countries take on another I mean you know some people sit in their backyard and they hear a sound and they they jump they're scared or they have to go in an awkward uncomfortable situation and they're panicked you know I always Marvel that there are people who could go undercover change their identity and you know to live that way did when you said yes right away I'm in how how did you know that you had what it what it takes you can't have an ashkanazi stomach and and go and agree to join the mosad yeah I have to answer one question that they I think Rabbi movich asked me if when I was younger in uai I ever thought that I might be under cover or work for the mosad I think never in my life even you know we used to go to movies my my my favorite movies were Westerns not the Spy movies my hero was I don't know who clean teast wood or something like that and um and the think of be you know of course for you the you you get your information from wherever you get it you know H but when you leave it is not such a big deal you know the question of undercover the most important thing is that you don't forget who you are because you you have to assume a role you have to you know be a businessman be a I was an anthropologist in Sudan for almost two years whatever I did as a as a cover usually not businessman because I am a terrible businessman never had the you know I never maybe I would have been a billionaire but I didn't become billionaire because you know doesn't interest me business makes me you know so um any other any other cover you always have to choose a cover that you know about something you know when I choose Anthropologist is because in the University I took several courses and the subject is interest me you know the anthropology is the study of man of mankind if you want so that was always interested I read books Claude Levy Strauss and the and the others so you know once once in carum as I was invited for a dinner okay the hosts were a couple of French ER that were doing some how do you call it work in Sudan the the the the husband was teaching them Agriculture and the wife was teach was teaching French and this we because I as you said I I was French there so you know we became friends and they used to invite me by the way these couple of go they met in Israel he was studying agriculture in rovot and she was a volunteering in a kibuts so these two go these two go they met in Israel they and now they are in Sudan so one several times we were on in dinners I was invited to dinners where there was Sudanese people and they always spoke about isra with great and the Arabs you know they looked at them but one once one evening she calls me and she says you have to come tonight I've got a big surprise for you now what they wanted all the time is to get me a sh because I was a I was a you know single and so I I was I was not interested it pused was problematic for me um anyway I come what is the big surprise as I enter the house she comes with a guy and she says I let me introduce you to Professor so and so anthropo French Anthropologist now I am a French Anthropologist understand so you know I can speak to you about anthropology and I can speak to other people but to confront a real French Anthropologist when I am a fake french anthropologist that's a problem so so I immediate well and of course when she arranged the table opposite to me so he immediately started to ask me yeah I understand that you are going to those tribes over there and you're spending time there and tell me tell me about it so I said listen I just came back from the field after three weeks I was in the field with those guys you know walking with them ER riding camels with them whatever and now let me you know let my mind rest tell me what's going on in the football in the soccer league in France tell me about the politics blah blah blah let's meet tomorrow morning for breakfast in my hotel and I'll tell you everything so you know we had a rendevu at 8:30 in the hotel at 7:30 I checked out and I let a message I left a message for him listen I had to go but leave me my telephone your telephone number once when I go come to Paris I'll call you and we talk I hope he's not I hope he stopped waiting what I'm telling you is there two two two basic elements one you have you have to choose a cover that you you can you know you can deal with it not with a professional real professional but right with most of and the other thing is don't forget who you are because you're lying okay once you assume a cover you're lying right you your lies should be as close to the truth as POS as possible you know there are guys they they they let him choose a I was an instructor so you tell a you tell a guy okay choose a choose a cover prepare it and then we will talk so okay so goes and comes back and say okay tell me your story now he says well first of all I am an orphan secondly I'm not married so I don't have children thirdly I I have no friends so you know of course because if you are interrogated by someone you know you're arrested and interrogated the less information that you that better in your mind you say no they will ask me who are my parents who is my wife and no I'm orphan I was born I was you know I was born an orphan anyway it doesn't work it doesn't work so if you're married okay say that you're married you have children say that you have children what boy girl age and so on so on because if you if you tell if you invent every time something new and you're changing personalities according to to to the operations you know you don't have always the same cover you're changing covers and the time passes and then you then you meet someone that you met under certain cover a certain story you don't even remember what you told him so if you keep as close as possible as real to reality that will make make life easier for you and the but the important thing is don't forget that you are an Israeli Jew and that you this is the basic thing you're you are assuming all the time um covers that are not Jewish okay you're Christian you you're not religious you whatever but you're not Jewish you cannot be Jewish doesn't work is in in in in intelligence work when you are working with your enemy hates Jews so but you don't have you should not forget who you are and why you are doing this no it's really acting when you say you're lying it's really acting it's an incredible acting career that you had okay but you know you're lying you're telling you're telling something that is a Lie w now now you failed your first mission right if I recall you told me that your first mission I think was in Greece and you failed the Mission how did you fail it and how did Cypress and how did you recover from failure well you know my first mission was to watch over someone who was doing operational work I was still you know like uh I was a how do you call it new recruit um so um they want I had to follow the guy and see that he was not followed by any by by some U um hostile elements and the protect him not but to watch over him that and so um um okay we land we came with the same flight to to what was it NIOSA or something and but we didn't talk he was his own man I was my own man everyone has a different thing story and we both went rented cars he rented a car in another agency I this agency okay and then okay he starts driving no first of all in Cyprus they drive on the wrong side of the of the road because the British tradition so for me it was the first time that I sat on the wrong side of the car and you know it's manual transmission and okay or it takes it takes three four minutes and you get you get used because everyone is driving on the same side of the road so it's okay and Okay so so I start I start following him and he goes and I'm after him and he turns right right and certain moment he turns whatever left and something you know is a red light or something and you don't you you have to avoid doing all kind of you know of um breaking the law because you don't want to be you know interrogated who are you what you're doing here whatever so I lost him I lost and I didn't know what to do if I was Japanese probably I had to do seku harakiri or but we Jews we don't do that so um so I said to myself it's a small City but I started turning around and going from this street the other Street speculating what who I didn't find him so I had to report that I lost him and I'm I was sure because it was my first mission I was sure that they would tell me okay thank you we understand that it's not for you bye-bye but you know they uh they saw okay next time you know be more alert or whatever um so that's it you know it happens let me ask you a question if what's the process to get into the mosad in other words let's just say some of us want to move to Israel one day we're too old for the Army is there there an office to go to where we could apply or are they watching students when they're much younger as they grow up yeah this is a this is a CIA uh method to start to um to finding tracing people in the university and then make and going after them no I think look to go to to enter the mad today usually usually there are two two methods and I'm not saying not telling any secret so there is a site on the internet mad mad. co.il hang on one second what's that mad what doco do got it okay so you go there and then they you have to answer questions you have to fill up some some formularies and then and then either they call you for an interview or they don't the second or the most um effective method is recommendation recommendations by either some people who are working now or people like me who um who are retirees but they know what is needed so a recommendation by a guy like me they take it more seriously by the way it's not automatic I have had people that are recommended and they will not because they have to go all kind of tests you you recommend someone because you think that he might he might be what they need but sometimes you you may be wrong I think R Brody would be fantastic R Brody's got ice in his veins and you know he's able to interact with people and you saw me in action yesterday on a phone call I was would fit right in in Iraq right in in Iraq he could fit right in Danny can you tell us about some of the missions first of all are you allowed to talk about everything you did or is is it still confidential or at this point now that you're semi-retired or graduated are you allowed to talk about everything and if you are can you tell us about some of these missions I know you know you're work you mentioned Sudan bringing Ethiopian Jews to Israel and um the Red Sea Resort of course the the whole story being told about that can can you share some of the missions with us actually I can't because the most no I is not a question of being mysterious or something um you know this is something that you you accept when you start working that most of the things that you do they go with you to the grave but let's say on in a CER I'll tell you something in general okay you remember Munich 1972 sure the Olympic Games in in in Germany Munich clear none of us were alive but we remember because we know the story yeah my father was there your father was there yeah there in Munich Munich yeah at the Olympics what do you say participating or watching no watching and then he was in Israel right after that maybe my father was in the mad I don't know I doubt that they would take someone who was an American citizen oh South African ah South African yeah that's okay okay good cover um I'll tell you something this um what happened there ER created a um a lot of um um resentment and the and the prime minister at the time who was g she um instructed the head of the mosad at the time zir to you know to look to find find and dispose of everyone that was me a member of the movement was called Black September disappeared since then and you know and do the work usually we are not usually I think it was the first time maybe I'm wrong but I think it was the first time actually the Mad went on a rampage of Vengeance of course it's not on it's not a question of you know being vengeful is a question of of teaching them that it's not worth to U assassinate Israelis or Jews because we were going to look for them and I think from then on from that period on there was never a some never a um um terrorist act that resulted in loss of life that was not pursued until the the the the responsible those who were responsible for it were found and punish punished so I participated in that Rampage if you can it was not a rampage it was it was actually a lot of we had to G gather a lot of intelligence many parts of Europe in many countries because they dispersed well those who were there in Munich most of them died but we knew that they they came from that movement SE Black September so we went looking for the for the heads and for the those who send them those who armed them and instructed them and so on and so on and we found them each each one of them there was also a b a great uh great was one of one of the no the one of those mistakes of the mad that become known it was Lam in in Norway one guy was was falsely identified and killed and he was a simple um uh he was working in a restaurant but he was very much alike a guy that we knew was the one of the heads of the Black September eventually we go to him to the to the authentic guy in Beirut um so you know this is a it's not the most important activity of the mosad the most important activity of the Mad is gathering intelligence to allow or to help the heads of state you know prime minister Minister of Defense Minister of Foreign Affairs and so on um allow them to to to um to understand what the enemy is planning and we were talking at the time where terrorist movements were were not not the main enemy at that time the main enemy early 70s was still countries like Egypt Syria Iraq uh Iran was a friend Iran was a friendly country so the masad ever spy on allies when you're Gathering intelligence do you gather intelligence also from allies because maybe they're not sharing everything that that they should be not really not really it happened once or twice as you know there was the case in the United States which is was not mad by the way mad had nothing to do with him it was a some uh Rogue operation ordered by by Shimon Perez was defense minister hey it's history The Mad usually gets the information it needs on allies from the Allies directly mad has relationship actually secret relationship relations with um most of the countries around the world including some countries that you wouldn't believe we have and um because actually with most of the countries in the world we have common interests and so um no to to give you an example the Abraham uh Accord the Abraham what do you call it Accords yeah Accords started with the with the talks between mosad and the intelligence community in those countries and from from there it developed into a public open diplomatic relationship but there are many still and important so I we avoid doing work on our allies because actually if they discover if they found find out the price that you pay is not worth it you have a question you go to them if it's the British or the French or the Germans or Italians or others okay you go straight to them and I also did some of this work and you tell them straight on look what's happening there why didn't you tell us something is happening or some some some terrorist cell is growing and and you don't tell us and then will you know it will blow up on our faces they usually they usually then they say look we we were not sure it was just the beginning we were we were going to tell you look we don't tell everything neither it's you know you you've got to keep some Secrets it's like a married couple do you tell everything your wife no I hope not Danny obviously without going to details but uh from the stories some of them I heard um you were involved in some incredible missions um without going to details though explain to us what happens when you're given a mission and that might conflict with some of your moral values do you have any moral conundrums of some of the things you were involved in or you feel that because you did it for Israel it was 100% correct does anything give you pause now in your retirement and saying I wish I didn't have to do that or I could have done that differently or you were just so Mission driven that whatever it took to get there you had no regrets or second thoughts look let's talk about human human is human intelligence okay you you um you need you need to have intelligence about country you want to you want to know what what are I'm talking you know years ago today you can apply this to Iran okay let's say Iran you need to know what they really want to do are they going to retaliate this are they going to continue with that are they planning with the proxies and so on so so you need to recruit some it doesn't it's not enough to have satellites and and drones and microphones and all the the technology in the world it's not enough you need to have human intelligence that means intentions intentions are in the head of the leaders and they talk among themselves it's not something that is public so you need to recruit someone okay you know now imagine you have to recruit someone who is deep inside the government so it's senior person okay because otherwise the intelligence is not is not worthwhile so now you have to approach these objective you have to you have to learn who might be a a appropriate the objective someone that you you have to find out about his weaknesses what what what is he suffering from maybe I don't know maybe his advancement was postponed maybe he doesn't earn enough money maybe is is a chief is is um Behaving Badly with him maybe I don't know what there are many reasons okay and you have to try and find it so you have to approach some guy become friendly and gain his trust and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah and you know I'm sure shortening the the the the the process and okay you arve to the point where you know exactly what the guy needs and what the guy can bring you so you make him an offer right he either accepts or refuses if he accepts now you you are instructing him to do very dangerous things because you don't you do do not obtain intelligence just by sitting some place and listening to a conversation many how do how do you how do you know even if he accepts that he's pretending to accept and he's about to turn you in and expose you let's wait with it it's a good question but let me advance one minute with the thing so now he's working okay he is bringing you in in intelligence now you arrive to a point it's like a crossroad where you know that if you need a specific piece of information and you know that if you tell him to go and go for it he's really risking his life now admitting that he's not a double agent okay what you you were insinuating for double Legend of course there are there are ways to test that okay I'm not going into it because it's really a technical thing professional thing it's not you most of the times you the guy is telling you stories and that he's actually because he wants him he wants you to brief him and the briefing itself is information because you're briefing him on something that you are missing so the enemy now knows that you don't know AB b c d so that's that you you you feel it okay this is part of the profession you have to feel it if you don't if you don't understand those things change profession but once once you get him working and the guy you know you he develops a a um loyalty to you it's it's more than loyalty depends on you now you as the as the one who is manipulating him or is you know operating him you have to keep cool you have to you have to not to get involved imagine it's a woman imagine it's a beautiful woman I'm not putting you in that spot but it can arrive I'm talking now A Simple Man okay you can also become involved emotionally with a guy who is is actually risking his life because you asked him doesn't matter that you're paying him and every it's not it's it's not a it's notam okay you're and then you arrive to that crossroads and you have you know that you you need that piece of information you know that there are 50% and I'm saying just 50% chances that he's going to get caught and if he gets caught it's not only that he's going to die he's going to suffer a lot until he dies okay so what do you do this is this is my way of answering the question is moral of of course you have you reach points where you you morally you have to decide what is more important and I'm not saying what I did what I did usually you do what you need to do and sometimes it ends in tragedy and you know you might say what an Iranian an Arab something it's a human being and it's a human being that you have developed a relationship with okay now I know some my colleagues they don't give a DB and in other agencies it's very few like this and I get along in other agencies and I'm not saying names but one one one which is very close to you in in your country and others they don't have this kind of moral problems as much as I know from having worked with them and sometimes you are using the same source and one one one is you know putting the brakes and the other one is is accelerating and it's a conflict so you know it's a it's not a nuclear physics it's not mathematics it's um human science and um and if not there is also the question of of as a religious Jew or religious maybe I'm not so religious but I I am you know I am a practicing Jew let's call it like this and and there are moral values that are very very Jewish and you have to not not everyone in mad at the time when I was young I was maybe the only one who came who studied in a okay today wow today you go into mad that the 4:00 in the afternoon that there you see really a crowd of people going to the Sho in my time there was no Sho in the Mad nowadays I tell you a story about The Mad Rabbi R okay when I went to the mad and I understood that this work is going to get me travel in chabas eat non koser kids are doing everything that is forbidden I said I have to consult with someone now the only available Rabbi that I could consult was the chief Rabbi of the army was RA schlomo gorin you heard about him sure of course was a great and he was very very assertive I mean he knew how to PO to be a PO he didn't you know play around yes maybe this maybe that no if you had to pois with M and all kind of subjects that he really decided and Ethiopian Jews among other things so I asked for an interview with him and I said look ABCD this is the kind of so first of all he says to me but knowing that how why did you go to work for that agency you could remain in the Army you could go to the Shabbat sh where they are called I said AO I said you mean that a religious Jew should not work in the mad I mean the Mad should be a religious you know youen youen F religious F whatever so he said no no okay okay he said okay put tell me again all the problems that you have and give me a week and come back after a week and I said okay eating this in that traveling Shabbat well if I if I end my mission in Shabbat am I entitled to go back home or I have to stay in some what some Hall somewhere in the middle of nowhere just to to finish you know in the Army if you do an operation on Shabbat you don't return to the base unless it's enemy territory if it's enemy territory you return to base but if it's just somewhere in the field you until M Shabbat so after a week I came he had wrote he had written a full I don't know three four pages of I'm not going to go into the details but he gave me answers for everything so when I um I came back to the I started working and there was no Rabbi the mad so I I printed I kept the original was handwritten but I also printed it and I gave it to the head of Manpower in the Mad to keep it I said I told him listen I don't know something might happen to me and maybe some other religious guy would come and so let keep this and if you see religious people coming to do operational work show them give it to them okay many years passed I retired one day I came for a meeting they called me for a meeting and I see on certain floor uh ground floor I see a lot of people going in One Direction all of them with kipot so I asked one what's going on he said said what in the okay I went with them and they had they had built the synagogue you know it was RAB so after the I went to him and I said you know but I grew up for many years in the mad I never had a rabbi to talk to there was never yeah we used to do aan if someone was saying kadish in the corridor you know somewhere We Gather 10 guys just to to have someone said Kish even non-religious but and then and then I said listen once upon a while 40 years ago or something I had answers from RAF gorin about ali questions regarding operational work he said what you he comes come with me we go to his office and there is a safe safe with combination mad everything is in a safe even he a secret document you know he opens the safe and in a in you know plastic envelope I see the the pages in handwriting of course of course it was also printed but the original handwriting I take this I said this I was given to me personally by rorin because I asked him all these questions he said ah he embraced me and said wow and then he told the story he told the story all the guys it was something it was really emotional you know it was yeah the the book and the Netflix movie about the Red Sea Resort does it tell the story accurately are you proud are you grateful that that story is being told or you wish it were still uh quiet on the wraps they didn't do a good job what do you think thumbs up thumbs down the the the film and the book are totally different but the film is okay there are some moments in the film that are authentic few really a very few most of it is like the involvement of the CIA that was not never involvement by the CIA but he made a film for American public so he needed to to introduce American elements and blah blah blah okay it's okay for someone who never knew anything about this operation he sees the film he gets an idea okay not exactly but all right the book on the other hand was written by a Jewish guy called Rafi bur who is British and he's a he's a journalist for 30 years searches subject so he first of all researched the first part of the book speaks about the the Ethiopian Jews who they are their history their they kept you know and then he interviewed a lot of people who participated in this operation Ethiopian Jews and Military guys from the Navy Seals from the Air Force pilots and people from the mad because he was given access and the story that he wrote is a true story there is no is no fake no no um not everything is I mean exact even do recommend the book definitely the book over the movie yeah and I'll tell you for the second part of your question I think it's not a it's not me or even me or my team or the the guys who participate I think that the story of the Ethiopian Jews and the efforts and the price they paid just to make alyah because the Injustice of the Israeli government that for 25 years they did not allow them to make alyah or even though great rabbis before the creation of the state like Aben cook and the grandfather of the actual president Andel all great rabbis in the in the 1930s 40s and 50s even they all recognized the Ethiopian Jews as being Jewish and they all said you should bring them to Israel otherwise they will be lost to the mission to the to the church because they were pressuring them like hell and you know there is a there is there is a not a because you don't but there is a a sho from Aras RAB David Ben zimra 500 years old that he says he interviewed two Ethiopian Jews who were being sold at the market as a slaves in Alexandria and he after sitting with them he he declared them Jewish he had a small doubt about about them maybe being kites why because they were M they were they didn't know the that once 150 years ago they learned that there is such a thing as to M they immediately embraced it and therefore you have in Israel today tens of rabbis issued from is including one or two most of them Zionist but some rabbis you know legitimate rabbis that's studied in shot and some of them they parall they study the AL as the the casing the spiritual leaders they still you know keep it and I have my really best one of my best friends Shalom Shon do shom Shon he was here he SP yeah H he spok in oh he spoke in your wow that I don't know to say is is a great stand upst I mean he can do a stand funny yeah he's very funny but he's also he's a doctor in Philosophy from Baran and he was I I know someone another Rabbi not Ethiopian that studied with him in the ISA and he told me he was eloui he was an eloui now he wrote books and he's still writing books and he fights with the chief rabate you know about things which is always a good sign because these people they are completely you know they they they are separate subject that's a separate subject for another time then I know we're almost out of time and you've got to run is is there a moment in your career you look back that you almost lost your life was there a moment you were almost exposed or almost killed when you look back that you say it's a miracle I'm still here I'm so grateful I I I can say that one one of the cases by the way I was attacked by a shark which is not really it was in the red in the resort in the Red Sea I was just you know swimming on Blue on open water and I saw a shark coming from down so there was a guy a friend of mine from my team on the beach waiting for me he told me you know he walked on the water you ran on the water I mean I did I swam and I managed to to to reach the the safety the the the shark was just behind me but that's nothing to do with the operational work in operational work I had one or two uh two or three let's say um close calls situations but Hashem Hashem is with me hopefully it continues to be and um well we're so glad we're so glad you made it and you're here masats I know you had one last question no I just you know we were talking about Ethiopian jewry but as R Goldberg referenced at the beginning we were in El Salvador together and we saw one of these what you call emerging communities can you speak for just a second about your work with the emerging communities around the world how you've been sent by the government to find these communities pockets of Jews to vet them and to you know hopefully on the Long Haul bring them to Israel well I must tell you that this is this was one of the most um passionate ER a passionate period of my life that I when I when I started doing this I I really didn't didn't believe that it it's happening to me again something that is so connected with the with the Jewish people and the and the the the preservation of the Jewish religion and Jewish and the Jewish identity and this is this is something that I came to I came to just by you know by chance I participated in a conference about 12 13 years ago in in the London University about book that was written by a French Anthropologist called EDI buer French Jewish but she's married to a Protestant pastor but she she's the book is called black Jews of Africa you can find it black Jews of Africa it it speaks about black commun Jewish communities in Africa not the Ethiopian Jews that's already was known quantity so she speaks about Nigeria Cameroon South Africa Zimbabwe Uganda and other places and I I said look if that exists I want to go and see it now I knew already that in Latin America there are also communities and I didn't know if what was the similarities or the differences so I mean to do it on my own I I'm not rich enough so I went to the minister of of diaspora and I said look I I would like you to appoint me to do a research on it I don't want to be paid I just want to cover to that you cover my expenses they wanted to pay me a salary a contract and so on so doesn't matter I didn't I did it really because I wanted to do it it do it but I got all the expenses covered so I started flying to South America and began with Mexico and then worked my way down south until Ecuador and every place in especially in Brazil Mexico Colombia and Brazil those are the main things in Brazil there are maybe 80 communities like this and in Africa we just to clarify eight 80 communities that are living as Jews they are living as Jews and they are most of them not accepted by the Jewish communities the the so-called legitimate Jewish communities they they don't accept them because they don't look Jewish I don't know what it means to look Jewish but these guys you know they're descendants some of them are descendants of anusim of maros of you know those who were converted by force by the Portuguese and so okay so but the similarities between a community in some e eeld in Brazil and in some eeld in Nigeria I mean no relationship possible but the same characteristics you know they got they they they come to Judaism Through the Bible they start they because they are Christians but there are either Protestants or evangelists or whatever are much more close to the Old Testament then to the New Testament and certain moment they come to the to the they realize that they believe in the book but they don't act accordingly so they go from Sunday to chabas and they stop eating what's forbidden to e to to to eat and they start you know slowly but surely becoming Jewish without calling it Judaism and the moment arrives when our friend Yos you know Yos not not only is not the Son of God not only is not a prophet and not only is not anymore a messiah he becomes a common you know Jew that lived 2,000 years ago in Israel in and and and they they just you know delete and no more Jesus once there is no more Jesus there's no more church and you're keeping Shabbat and you're keeping Kim and you're eating kosher Next Step they want to learn more they want fine they want minan they want this so they go to the Internet because the rabbis in the first of all in Africa there are no rabbis they can consult I call them I mean their Rabbi is Google Rabbi Google the known great Rabbi of Africa in Brazil or in Colombia or in Mexico Mexico less because because it's close to the states and in the states by the way I found out in the southern parts of states where there are many Latinos that came to America and they want to join Jewish synagogues Jewish communities in in the states the rabbis are much more open including some Orthodox I'm not talking about reformist and conservative but even Orthodox rabbis they give them a chance they tell okay you want to join our sh okay you can come and we will see and they you know they they put them to a to a test for a year or two years to see if they do but in other places in South America and Central America they don't have that thing so they you in in Latin America they manag to to approach rabbis and bring them to to teach them and then maybe to convert them like that you met ra three [Music] months that came from Guatemala to that wedding they were brought by the way Danny cats paid for the tickets they came to New York because there was a a a Bine with reim are recognized by the chief rabate in Israel which is is very rare so Dan paid RAB came and I came as a witness whatever because I you know I know those families many years I introduced them to Dan and even to of so anyway this thing in in my humble opinion is part I think it it must come from shamai I mean this is not something that can happen just like that on such a large scale by the way large scale we're not talking millions in my report in my I wrote a I wrote a report on that I estimate about 50,000 all around the world about 300 communities all around the world but the potential is Big because all those 50,000 that already made the step they have relatives and Friends who are watching and seeing what is happening there is a potential I mean on one hand we are losing people all the time by assimilation you know that us is one of maybe the pl the countries where the more most assimilations take place but there are others so I mean from shamim it's like a turning you know you enter a hotel these are coming out these are coming in that's something that we incredible you're work with this group is your new Mission and it's your next chapter and I'm sorry I missed this trip but I'm excited for our trip to Colombia together we're looking forward to that looking forward to RAB bro's first uh mosad attempt he's gonna assume a he's gonna assume an identity a cover we're gonna look for his costume so uh Danny if we could ask you to put together Rabbi bro's uh cover give him it's is ready try to be an evangelist Pastor I'm sure you can that's actually not a bad idea not a bad change you change the black kipa for a white K and no problem truth is Danny we could we could speak to you for hours and hours we barely scratch the surface of all of your amazing stories to say thank you for what you've done for am and erel is is is there are no words to describe as you said you're GNA take most of what you did to your grave not for many years and we'll never know we'll never be able to thank you properly but you the other mad agents everyone who does everything we we pray for we're looking forward to good news we should hear good news and celebrate together in I'll tell you one thing because my my closing speech as I told Danny Danny is telling me a lot of you know what you're doing ises KES your school and you all the rabbis that I met in that school I met some others that I don't see now but I met and I'm telling you this is a great mitvah I don't have to tell you you know that but you're doing very you know this the Jewish people to survive has to fight on a very very large front line and in the front line there is space for everyone mosad teaching Torah it's not it's not less important it's even more important you know teaching Torah is more important and mad comes later to ensure that those who are studying Torah keep still alive that's it wow thank you Denny thank you for everything we look forward to to seeing you soon