#157: Behind the Bima - Douglas Murray

from boaton Florida this is behind the Bea on this episode Rabbi Goldberg is joined by author and journalist Douglas Murray a renowned British political commentator associate editor of The Spectator and author of several best-selling books including the Badness of crowds and the strange death of Europe respected for his incisive analysis and eloquent defense of Western values and freedom of speech Douglas Murray's recent work has focused on defending Israel and combating anti-Semitism here he discusses his unwavering support for Israel explains the root causes of media bias against Israel and shares his personal experiences and observations from his travels to the region all this and more behind the Bea welcome back behind the Bea I'm RAB from Goldberg joined By Me Myself and I R masot by Brody and I will be traveling taking vacations this summer and so our overlap may be sporadic but I'm really excited and proud to bring you this Following episode a great conversation with Douglas Murray one of the real heroes for the Jewish people over the last months earlier but certainly more prominently and famously over the last nine months since this war has erupted in a world in which we are so lonely and feel so abandoned to have someone a media personality an author a journalist someone of his intellect and somebody who's not Jewish nevertheless so understand and so get and so advocate for us is really something special so I'm grateful for that this episode is sponsored in a very meaningful way something very personal for me and all who knew Kim Diamond our beloved friend Mr Kim Diamond's third yite is coming up on the ninth of Tas and this episode is sponsored by Michelle and by the diamond family and Kim's memory Kim was an extraordinary extraordinary person a dear friend to me to the rabbis and to so many in our community the best way to explain K was he was an amazingly authentic person he was real and he was genuine and he was honest and he was transparent and he was loyal and he was deep he was in touch with his own feelings and wanted us to be in touch with ours and to share with one another and he faced his illness and ultimately his passing with a lot of courage and um and with a lot of moral Clarity and we miss him and we can't imagine how much his family miss him we wish continue to wish a lot of comfort to Michelle and to the to the children to the whole family and this conversation is dedicated in Kim's memory and it really is a very authentic and genuine conversation um I was able to try to go a little bit with Douglas on his own life and his background and how he navigates some of the prominence and the platform that he now has there's so many places that you can listen to Douglas Murray and tap into his intellect aside from reading his his books and his articles or listening to his lectures and we're excited he's going to be coming to South Florida soon but if you follow his debates and his interviews and those conversations you can hear his views about the west and perhaps the potential fall of the West the demise of the West you can hear about how Israel's at the front lines of the West and they're coming next for the West um recently a conversation he had with with Ben Shapiro and others there's so much to listen to learn from him in general so we tried to have some more conversation about how to navigate how to navigate some of that Fame how to navigate the love but also some of the hate and how to choose when to debate and when to sit it out who to engage and who to ignore and some of the questions that maybe we don't get to hear of uh of how he's living and and the choices that he's making there were several things that he said that really that really made me think in a big way one of which was when I asked has he paid a price for standing up for Israel and the Jewish people so he's gotten a lot of accolades and a lot of love from the Jewish community and the pro-israel community but has he lost friends as he lost family members um when we had on Congressman Richie Torres recently he talked about members of his own family who've taken the wrong side and shown sympathy to the wrong people and he's really had to create some distance from and that's been really really painful for him so I was curious other personalities Richie Torres isn't Jewish and neither is Douglas Murray and technically doesn't have skin in the game have they paid a price for standing up for for our people um and he had an interesting answer very different than than Richie torres's and you'll hear it momentarily coming up but essentially he said that those who think differently you believe differently he shed those friendships a long time ago which led to an interesting conversation about is there a danger of falling into an echo chamber I'll let you listen to hear more about that but I started thinking about that notion of shedding those friends who don't get it and it's so important to be able to surround ourselves and expose ourselves to different ways of thinking into different opinions but there are some red lines where if someone believes something so fundamental we think wrong or immoral then maybe we don't need to engage them and maybe we don't need to be exposed to their their thinking or that debate and and just in general I know that's something I've been thinking a lot about and working very hard on since October 7th is to really surround myself with and and be exposed to that which will uplift and Inspire and that which will enrich and that which will Empower and the the things and the people and the conversations that are just draining and that are upsetting and that are so disappointing and frustrating you know there's a fine line and we all have to be thoughtful about when is it important to be kept up on the news to be well informed but what are the things that will bother us so on a regular basis you know today alone two people sent me links saying this will really upset you or this video this interview this podcast of this personality G I say things I want to know what you think it's really so upsetting and I frankly I'm not really interested in listening there's only so much bandwidth there's only so much time there's so much only so much emotional energy and we have to choose how we allocate it and where we put it so we definitely should listen and learn and be exposed to different ways of thinking than our own we can gain from it and it's important to be kept up on the news even if it's upsetting or frustrating but I think particularly within our own Jewish World you know people read things just to hate it and be upset about it people watch things just to have their blood pressure rise over it and if there are things we can't influence or not change why what's the point just to be up on the hawk just to be upset or bothered by something let's find the commonality let's find the inspiration let's find what we agree upon let's find what's going to elevate us and enrich us let's find what's going to give us hope and and optimism and strength during these difficult times during this prolonged difficult time so uh part of that conversation made me think even more about that decision about how do we engage in that which energizes US and doesn't deplete us of energy of that which inspires us and doesn't upset us and do we have to just because someone sent us something to read or watch or listen to if we if we know it's only going to bother us upset us disappoint us and there's not something positive to take from it and do about it then do we really need to engage it something to think about in terms of the force field we build around ourselves how we protect ourselves our mental health our mental hygiene our well-being and The Limited energy and time that we all have so again a big thank you to the DI and family for sponsoring a memory of Kim huge thank you to Douglas Murray for sharing some time with me and our mutual dear friend Evan for making it happen without any further Ado an honor a privilege and a pleasure to bring to you a conversation with Douglas Murray it's truly an incredible honor and privilege to uh go behind the Bea have a conversation with you Douglas Murray a hero um I think of of decent people moral people everywhere but particularly over the last nine months of the Jewish people and people who love Israel so before anything else aside from gratitude for this conversation from the bottom of my heart as someone who has both of my siblings live in Israel I have a nephew fighting in Rafa right now and and nephews who are serving in the IDF and other capacities thank you thank you thank you for your steadfast support and your moral Clarity and you're articulately speaking the truth uh to power and from the bottom of our hearts thank you well thank you that's very kind of you thank you for such a warm introduction it's a great pleasure to be with you again it is great to be again I want to thank our mutual dear friend Evan for making this conversation possible and that night possible recently you Ben Shapiro Evan and I had an extended dinner and I had a front row seat to incredible dialogue conversation back and forth really really remarkable and here's the thing that that really jumped out at me Douglas was here I'm sitting with Ben Shapiro a fellow observant Jew Evan an informed fellow traditional Jew we have a long-standing friendship in history we're Jews passionately connected to and caring about Israel and in that conversation you're a total Insider here you are not of the Jewish faith and not of a Jewish background your knowledge about Israel your seeming passion commitment to Israel is as strong as ours so tell me tell us where does that come from where does it come from the support of Israel is it something in your upbringing was there a teacher a family m a mentor is this philosophical religious in nature cultural where does this incredible passion commitment to Israel come from I think it's probably quite a lot of things it it's starts definitely with um what I regard as being a starting ground for everything which which is uh orienting towards truth and uh as the first time I think the first time I was in Israel was 2006 during the Lebanon war the hezb war and uh I was very struck then by the simple I mean differen is to put it mildly the chasm uh between what I was seeing with my own eyes and what I was reading in the international press I mean it was just blew my mind that there could be such a disconnect and um such ter terrible misreporting and non-reporting and much more so that definitely sort of gave me a a taste and a hunger for the story um and then I suppose just over the years uh I've spent quite a lot of time there in war and in peace time and that sort of feeling that Israel has just there's so little such a lack of empathy um in most of the the West for Just For What it's going through what its people are going through and and I also I mean I just just lots of other things I suppose I'm you know very aware of History was certainly brought up uh to know my history and to know that it's not something you sort of study for a bit and then sort of thing I've done that um and sort of always learning and always wanting to learn more and feeling that certainly uh um philosophically and and and religiously times I felt a deep connection uh to the state of Israel and just a great Sympathy for the struggles of its people um and an admiration for it as well it's not just about you know victimhood or something an admiration for you know this extraordinary country which is as we know is the one bit of the Middle East not blessed with oil and uh yet you know this this this country that's relatively young um has become this huge success story and I suppose you know over time you know you have lots of friends and and and and others in uh in the country and you hear all their sides of stories and before you know it you know I find myself able to argue as well as anyone as a Friday night dinner I'm sure and and and you have an open invitation to any of ours you'd be a eager eager participant one of the things that's so frustrating as as someone who loves Israel is like you said your curiosity and your quest to learn which is part of Who You Are brought you looking objectively at the history and at the current facts and the political landscape and so on and you came to what seemed to be the obvious conclusions and it leaves all of us wondering how can the world not see what's obvious certainly the last nine months in this war um you know the the moral uh cause that Israel is fighting and the moral Clarity the most maybe the most moral Army in history of most moral War taking precautions no other Army in history has and the the ratios of Civilian deaths and all the truths that you know I certainly don't need to tell you you've spoken them out um so incredibly compellingly why if anyone is looking objectively how could they not come to the same conclusion and and therefore our conclusion can only be the bias that's out there and the filter through which everyone is interpreting and projecting this story and this war yeah I I I think I think there's a lot of things but you know might as well go to the right to the roote as I see it which is that you know after 911 in America um there was enormous International horror and some sympathy but there was also an underlying thing that certain people in that case mainly on the left also felt it was rather disgustingly um given Voice by the classicist Mary beard who said in the London review of books that you know sad as 9/11 was you couldn't get out of your mind the feeling that in some way America had it coming now that was for some of us deeply shocking as some of us who like me who love America you know fell in love with America the first time I visited in the 90s uh for for for us that was just a horrible thing but it was what she felt and clearly what a lot of other people felt America's been too dominant or America's thrown its power around too much so you know it's not to say they support the the the attacks but they they sort of say well you know you can see it coming they had it coming I think there's a very strong similar strain of thought in much of the West about Israel a sort of feeling that Israel has done something wrong and therefore even after an atrocity like the atrocities of October the 7th they sort of had it coming um you know you reap what you sow that kind of thing and I think this is a really important prejudice and not just a Prejudice but also to give the benefit of the doubt a deep misunderstanding that many people have which is that Israel has done something wrong which means that um and at a very fundamental level not just a you know occasional policies or mistakes you know but at some fundamental level I mean after all Israel is the only country I know of in the world who when its government does something that somebody else disapproves of the entire viability and leg legitimacy of the state is called into question right you know I I quite often make comparison with Pakistan founded within this you know year of the foundation of the state of Israel Pakistan's been run by some of the most terrible people um but at no stage does anyone in the west say well you know I think basically we should abolish the state of Pakistan or like you know return to the pre 947 Borders or I mean it' be Preposterous and yet with Israel that's the sort of thing that's always on the table and I think because of this this this belief that many people have that Israel did something wrong at the foundation I I deny that I refute that I argue against that but I think a lot of people feel that and and and put every atrocity against Israel somehow into that immoral equation it's sort of a punishment for being successful when we were the underdog people could could like us right people love dead Jews that that recent work and now that that there's some success in in in medicine and technology and so on you know people people hate success which is which is so deeply troubling so you've earned enormous admiration and and fans and and people are deeply appreciative including me including the state of Israel the president gave you an award in April welld deserved have has it also cost you friendships family members you're standing up you're being such a staunch advocate for Israel have you been surprised in this world in which people s of think they're siding with the underdog to have sympathy for Gaza and to see Israel as an aggressor you're being so staunchly in Israel's corner has that has that harmed you in any way you didn't expect or question anything first you I wouldn't care um which is important uh secondly I think anyone who you know was on the wrong side of this very important question I think I successfully ditched some years ago I'm probably 20 5 years ago now um so no I I don't feel that um there are some I suppose there were some critics of mine on on the political right who try to smear me because you know they can't believe that anyone who's not Jewish would be pro-israel and would love to think that this is because I'm sort of bought or something by Israel I regret to inform people that I've never received there wasn't a multi-million dollar check came with that from president Herzog I wish I wish but uh no I mean you know it's so there are people like that who I mainly think is sort of bad faith actors who you know want to justify their own bigotries but no I it's it I think in my experience and perhaps for any anyone younger watching this is quite important my experience in general is if you tell the truth as you see it um it doesn't really matter because what happens because um you you might lose friends I suppose as I say in my case shed shed them many years ago but but the best thing is you get a lot much better friends and for me one of the great wonderful things actually that's that's come out of this horror has been the um the love and appreciation that I felt from so many people particularly in Israel and it's it's deeply deeply moving to me me because what I think people often what people often have said to me is you know thank you for what you're saying and what you're doing it's and it's encouraged me and I always say to them but you know you you saying that encourages me in return it's a it's a it's a loop of of it's It's how would you say it it's just it's um if you if you give you you get back you know and I find that I find that there just an enormous amount of support and love and you know and and and that that's meant a huge amount to me and encourages me in turn are you concerned if you shed friends who disagree and embrace the people who support and law then then a person can find themselves in an echo chamber oh sure but I mean I I don't think there's any chance of me being in an echo chamber because I spend far too much time debating my enemies uh and so I do I I I mean you definitely have to make sure you're not surrounded by sick fans um that's always the case but that I I I don't think I'd like that anyway um so no I I suppose there's a possibility I find that what's what's one of the things that's very interesting about the last eight months is that and it's something I've written about that I I'm I sometimes worry about isn't isn't um being in an echo chamber but that a society could reach a very different conclusion than the rest of the world and I think that's one thing is endanger happening in Israel the knowledge inside Israel of what has happened not just on the seventh and since but long long way back is extremely uh uh deep and widespread and outside I don't know if the dial has shifted so much and when I say the dial shifting what I really mean is um you know for instance two days after the 7th of October I think it was secretary Secretary of State Anthony blinkin said you know this is why we need to double down on two-state solution I don't think there's anyone in Israel who thinks that I mean there's always always one one guy but um after the horrors after after handing Gaza over in 2005 and you know ripping Jewish families out of their homes uh to give the whole of the Gaza over to the Palestinians and then Hamas being elected and then the rockets and then the rockets and Rockets and Rockets and then the seventh um I don't think anyone in Israel thinks that the response to that should be to give the Palestinians yet another state but the rest of the world stuck on this sort of October the 6th stupid Paradigm and I do worry about that when you mention Echo Chambers that's not an Echo chain but that's just a some people have had reality catch up with them and some are able to kind of continue to dream defunct dreams let let me ask you this question actually because I think it comes out is you're describing some people are so invested and such stakeholders of their ideas and ideologies it's very hard to break from them even when the truth and the reality and the clarity is in the other direction how have you tried to avoid that as somebody who who reads and who grows and who learns and who is wanting to improve how do you sort of check yourself between when you are stuck on an old idea but should be open to revising it versus when that old idea is such truth that it's not open to revision or to change well I you know one way I I tried as funny a friend of mine in Paris I was speaking to the other day and I mentioned certain French writers and intellectuals whose books I'd been reading recently and you know was catching up on the latest developments in in France and politics and literature and philosophy and I it was very funny this friend of mine said uh because some of them are very leftwing and some of them are people I would not inevitably agree with them and this friend said I'm sort of surprised he said do you think any of them read you I said oh no of course not of course not um uh and I've often found that that isn't reciprocated you know people who disagree with you from certain directions not just politically tend to think I know what he says I know what he says I by contrast always try to think I'll just check in on what they're saying you know I'll see what's what's going on there and usually you know there's something to take away that's of Interest not always but but sometimes so I suppose that's one of the ways I do it I I I read all the time books and articles and reports by people I disagree with and um I wouldn't have it any other way you know Don Stuart Mill the famous author of on Liberty says that one of the one of the foundational reasons why free speech freedom of the press is so important is that even if your own opinion is in eror is if your own opinion is in error then you should try to make sure you correct it I do but as I say I'm Amazed by the number of people who would rather stay in error there's Industries surrounding it people draw livelihoods from it and there there's Financial gains to maintain certain uh certain ideas that should be relegated to the Past what people look at the Israel issue they might look at you and they say you know of course this is where he is on immigration this is where he is on this subject this is he's a conservative he's a this he's a that so of course he's standing up for Israel in this war how would you explain to people that support for Israel should transcend politics it's not a left or right liberal Conservative Republican Democrat that support for Israel is an American cause a British cause a cause of the West a moral cause how how would you communicate that well yeah I mean you know first of all what Israel is doing in in in Warfare at the moment is something that America and Britain have had to do in recent years you know the destruction of Isis uh very similar to the hopeful destruction of Hamas you couldn't eradicate Isis completely but you could make it effectively operationally incapable and do and destroy it to such an extent that it could not carry out attacks like that uh terrible night of attacks in Paris uh eight years ago um the Western Powers the Allies who went in to destroy Isis were fighting on similar laws of war rules of war that the IDF is at the moment and the IDF is fighting a much tougher campaign actually than Isis was as more more you know house-to house combat and we had the Kurdish very brave Kurdish Fighters helping us with Isis but um I think people don't realize quite often when they apply these what I call the triple standards to Israel which is you don't not just a double standard but the triple standard of of you know that Israel has to be better the idef has to be better than any other Western Army it has to be not just the most moral but even more moral than anyone has ever conceived of um this is I think a big mistake because we will all have to fight Wars again at some point I mean unless we've entered the age of Aquarius which I think we haven't and never will um and so it's extremely it's very poor idea to decide to defame the Israeli military for things that young British men and young American men will have to fight in due course um lots of other aspects of that I mean I'm I'm very critical of the stupid uh international criminal court the IC and it's self-appointed pompous lead prosecutor who is just a political activist and it's disgraceful but you know some people including the new foreign Secretary of the UK David Lamy think that the IC is what it says it is and that everyone should abide by its claims well you know if you agree with this Trump up pseudo Court um having jurisdiction over democratically elected Israeli leaders which is what they're trying to do by issuing arrests warrants for Benjamin Netanyahu and uh and defense minister galland yeah well wait till they come for you because at some point probably in the next five years in the labor government certainly in the next 10 years if they have a you know a rolling majority um British troops are bound to be involved somewhere and David lamby better hope that there isn't some nasty judge out there who for political reasons wants to come for British or American troops because he will be in the dock next right these people are um ridiculously shortsighted um but it's not just that it's also of course I mean it's just it's it's it's it's just a defense of values if you look at a region like looking in a room of people you know you look for the friendly faces you look for the ones who uh you know um you're going to get on with well Israel is obviously the country and the region which America and Britain and European countries are most likely to get on with the Litany of ways in which we similar is so commonplace that it's a it's a it's a cliche now but um you know there are many interesting and important Dynamics in the rest of the region but nowhere else where an American or european would be a able to be recognizably at home and um so of course you should defend uh um people who share your values of course you should defend defend your friends when they're fighting for their values and for yours as well um I find it I find it very sad when people think that it is a right left issue I think that it needn't be it didn't used to be I think it was made so in well the lifetimes of people currently alive I think it's it's evident even from the countless rallies um the rallies for Israel Americans for Israel there are always American flags being waved and there's the the you know singing the Stars Bengal banner and at all the prop Palestinian or essentially pramas it's hard to believe that they're even pramas that people would identify associate with Hamas they're burning American flags and so it should be so evident and obvious to political leaders or to the to the masses with whom to align and the equivalent on the on the other side on 911 in Israel there's a 911 memorial in Israel and a 911 in Gaza they were handing out candies and shooting fireworks so simple fact should be obvious to all where where we are aligned what you mentioned about the flag is so important I would gave an alternative commencement addressed to some of the students of Colombia University earlier this year because their commencement was B was stopped because of hamaz niik supporters who are going to probably uh you know anyway the point is is is that that that during this alternative commencement speech but were Jewish students Christian students and others I spoke to a lovely young man who was had been in the American Military and had gone to Colombia after serving and he showed me the photographs and the Press coverage but at one point when these hamaz idiots were pro pro hamaz idiots were protesting in the encampment in Colombia in New York he um he went in their midst waving the uh the American flag uh and was immediately uh um hauled off campus described as provocative and was in some danger um and as he said to me he said you know I i' i' I've fought and lost friends for this flag for the American flag and I'm told I can't wave it in New York at a university because it's too provocative well something's telling that I should tell people something not just about Israel it's about America it's not just about hatred of of Israel it's about hatred of America hatred of our societies and a desire an extraordinary desire to support anyone who hates us and they often say that that's it's a job for psychiatrist to analyze one of this I'm sure it is you know I mentioned to you when we spent time together um with Ben that one of the outstanding things about both you and Ben is not only your Brilliant Minds and not only your incredible knowledge of history and philosophy but put into setting of debate because there are a lot of Brilliant Minds out there there are a lot of people who know a lot and they can't communicate effectively whatsoever they have no auditory skills the two of you not only have the background and the insight and the knowledge and the writing uh but you put you on a debate stage and you make Min me of your opponents you have an incredible skill set to be able it's it's Advantage that you both have that the truth's on your side that's a sizable Advantage it's like yeah speaking steroids in a debate um but but on the other hand it still takes enormous skill to be able to so how you decide when when by agreeing to a debate will you have a platform to articulate the truth and when are you somehow giving credibility to the other side and it's demeaning to even appear with them and I think it's a big question for Israelis in particular they're invited on on news shows or there are other other panelists and they have to ask themselves if I don't participate our point of view won't be shared if I do participate am I elevating people who shouldn't even have a platform or a voice whatsoever how do you decide that yeah I remember there was a wonderful Israeli Professor who was on Al jazer some years ago and celebrated uh performance magnificent performance in Arabic and um when I met him some years later I said gosh you're such a hero of mine that was a that that debate and our really made an impression on me and showed how you can just bulldoze through and say the truth even if the other guests and the presenter and the network want you not to do so and he said something so funny to he said Douglas what can I say uh sometimes Al jazer invites the Jew on as a punching bag and uh sometimes the bag punches back and and um I mean it is a concern and it is one that you know you weigh up all the time there are people who you say debate me debate me and I just people I I I I I don't think have any significance and one way in which I sort of Judge that is show me your body of work in this area like what are the books you've written or the Articles or what's your firsthand research where's your journalism on this and if that person has done none of that and it's just another gobby person I I don't feel very inclined to debate them uh occasionally somebody will bring somebody will be brought on a program with with me who I think very little of but believe they've got a bit too big for their boots and I think that was a case with there's a guy guy called Chen weer who is not a thoughtful person at all and is he's he's just a lazy guy and a obnoxious guy and I was invited on Pierce Morgan to debate him and we did and but you know when I was asked to again I said no I don't need to do that again I've said what I have to say say to that fool and you know move on but I think in probably there there are very very few people that I I I I say no to and I suppose just I I say no probably more now than I did at the start of my career for many reasons but one of them is also I don't it's it's really quite morally tainting it feels demeaning to be on with certain people like if somebody didn't accept that October the 7th had happened I I would have no need for them because I'd assume they also don't believe in the moon landings believe that you know 911 was an inside job of George W bush and you know the World is Flat The World is Flat I just don't have you've got to you know you've got to use your time on this Earth wisely and I don't think that's a wise use of my time and um and also those people sometimes bring out some of my um less positive sides which I oh that's the most fun side W exciting maybe for other people but it has a toll on me I'm sure I'm sure it does are there tactics when you're planning uh when you're preparing for those debates those conversations obviously we the average person doesn't have that platform or that audience but we do engage people all the time where we're trying to make the Case for Israel so what are some of the tactics you think are the most important when making the Case for Israel or the case for any truth what's the most I don't mean a debate tactic as if there's a you know the judges who are scoring but I just mean to be effective or compelling what are the most important tools to think about I mean the most important of course as you mentioned is truth and sticking to that um being unafraid to say unpopular things is very important um it's important not to be knocked off your balance uh which is like in the boxing ring as I understand it what people very often try to do to get you down on the floor you've got to stick to your guns and and be willing to go back to the first principles the basics um I think a lot of debate in private and in public people get lost because I sometimes describe it as bards are thrown in front of them and they end up having to sort of weave around the ballards carefully and and they forget where they're meant to be going and there's a lot of people who do that tactic I was doing monk debates for the wonderful Natasha house door on my side in Toronto the other week and our opponents there repeatedly tried to just throw absolute rubbish in our way claim after claim that was completely false and you have to decide and it's there is a certain art in that Natasha has it in space of deciding which of those things you are going to clear from your way and which you're just going to have to say look there's been so much thrown in our way that I'm going to move on and um she's a master of that and and is a that is a very important thing to be to be able to do because if you if you do get thrown off and end up arguing some uh Niche bit of the niche bit of it then you're away from the point and uh Ben is superb at that as well of not being blown off course I suppose you know everyone should know as much as possible and the main thing is yeah remembering the evidence of your own eyes I mean that's that's one of the reasons why I do so much sort of firsthand reporting and seeing I think that the best way to avoid being blown off course is by seeing things with your own eyes and seeing as much as possible with your own eyes and that gives you that inner strength to know that even if somebody is lying to your face you you will not lose sight of it because it's in your mind in your mind's eye and uh yeah there's a lot there's a lot to say but that's some of it for sure yeah that's enormously you've been generous with your time I won't take too much more of it h how is Douglas Mari misunderstood what do you wish the world do more about you to better appreciate you does it bother you critics criticism how do you develop a thick skin earlier you said you know that you've shed those friends or you don't really care the people who don't get it um their advantage is there's some disadvantages to to developing skin that's too thick um just as a as a person so how do you how do you navigate that what do you what do you wish we better appreciated understood and how do you not take to heart too much any criticism the more of a public person you become I I don't really I don't listen to criticism from the the way I think of it is I listen to criticism from critics who wish me well but I won't listen to criticism from people who hate me you know and I and I I've I've run that process for a long time you know as I like to say you know if my mother said to me I thought you were too angry you know in that debate whatever I would listen because she's my mother I know she wants me she wants the best for me if some Maniac in the street comes gibbering over at me and screams abuse at me and then offers some debate tips you know I'm not likely to listen to them and I think we all have to remember that that that there are critics who want you to do well and they're trying to improve you and there are others who just hate you right and most of the stuff that is so-called criticism is just people people who hate you or hate the things you stand for I don't care for their opinions at all I mean why would I I was like going over to a mad deranged drug addict on the street and asking them what they what they think of your tie I mean it's you you only you have to listen to people who you respect and I certainly have you know quite a lot of people from a very wide range of backgrounds and disciplines and and and viewpoints actually Who I Really you know do listen when they when they talk and um yeah I think you that keeps you sane and grounded I think for th those who are appreciative of all that you do and are fans of your of yours would would they show it more when they see you in public if you're in New York if you're in a restaurant if you're traveling if you're in Israel do they show their appreciation by by staying away and just saying hey there's Douglas Mar he's fantastic or by coming over and saying thank you for all that you do had more privacy people come over to me a lot it's very moving it's very very moving it's it's almost always so nice and um it's it's very moving I mean I'm I'm a writer and journalist and I what you always hope is that your ideas your your work is is read and absorbed and to realize that you you are being read and and absorbed is is just a it's a wonderful thing um a wonderful thing so no it's a it's a i regard it as enormous enormous privilege and I don't take it for granted at all what are three books you'll leave our audience recommending not only on Israel the Israel issue but if somebody wants to be well read thoughtful curious growing are there three books I know that's a very broad question because I'm not even mentioning a genre or an area but what are books that in your mind you cannot be a thoughtful intellectual person without having read if you could gift three books what would be what would be those books aside from yours i' say aside from mine um I suppose there are I often I I I read novels as well as you know non-fiction I so I might just stick with novels I would say Anna kenina um the leopard by JPI de lampedusa and life and fate by vasy grman uh yeah uh yeah tol sto lader and uh and Grossman that would that that's a good start all right we're gonna we're gonna head right to Amazon thank you for your time I have to say the south Florida Community is incredibly excited September 8th this was a short conversation but we the opportunity to hear you more long form your first ever US tour with Live Nation coming to the Parker in Fort Lauderdale and I know tickets have just gone on sale not even publicly yet but starting to spread around more privately our community is incredibly excited and my family I am excited to be able to see you again there September 8th everybody should should jump online to to get those tickets before they sell out because I know walk away better informed and and and more excited and more grateful for all that you're doing for Israel and Beyond so Douglas you're really a hero to our people for the Jewish people and the pro Israel Community this last nine months has been increasingly lonely lonely in this world and just compounds the loss the pain and the anxiousness over what will be is is the loneliness we know that for any form of struggle loneliness only compounds it and I think collectively nationally in a people sense the Jewish people are lonely you've helped us consistently feel less lonely by giving us a voice by speaking out on our behalf by standing up for Israel by fighting back against anti-Semitism so again I'll end the way we began just from some most sincere place in my heart to thank you for all that you do and that that God should give you the continued strength and wisdom an oratory Acumen to continue to defeat all of your enemies our enemies and to to win not only in debates in in in ideas and to give you the strength to continue to spread that message and to stand up for us and to stand up for all truth so we're looking forward to seeing you September 8th and I hope everyone will join for that very special show you're really a hero to our people in this time and from the bottom of my heart thank you well thank you and I look forward to seeing you and uh everyone watching in um September thank you so much thank you catch us next time for another Peak behind the beima