#155: Behind the Bima - Frank Meeink, Reformed Neo Nazi

from Boer on Florida this is behind the beima on this episode Rabbi Goldberg and co-hosts Rabbi Philip MTZ and Rabbi Josh Brody are joined by Frank mink a former Neo-Nazi leader and member of the k k clux Clan whose life took a dramatic turn Frank discusses how after years of being entrenched in a world of hate he experienced a profound Awakening that led him to renounce his past Embrace tolerance and become a strong advocate for understanding and unity plus what are Rabbi Brody's favorite shoes and what sports team should you root for all this and more behind the Bea welcome welcome to behind the Bea I am r f from Goldberg joined by my dear friends and colleagues Rabbi Philip moscot and Rabbi Josh Brody here to take you behind the beer how many times do you run into people who know that they listen to something we do but they can't quite remember the name they're like behind the pulpit I love behind the pulpit I love on the be love the Bea the be Bea it's great they have all kinds of names for it which is fun we have a great conversation tonight really F Frank mink was a Neo-Nazi white supremacist in jail for three years for violent crime swastika tattooed on his neck leader in that kicked out of the clu clut clan for being too violent takes a lot to get kicked out of the clan I imagine and uh then discovered that he's Jewish and in in part of a whole journey now we's filling and studies with a rabbi and wow what a story what a story we're going to bring that to you but first another interesting disc Discovery I made while while looking into this um actually something that he referenced and that is did you know Rabbi Brody did you know that Doc Martin the name of a of a shoe that's some weere did you know that Doc Martin was a Nazi and did you know that as Skin head culture emerged in Great Britain in the 70s adherence developed their own style wearing steel towed work boots and one of the indicators that somebody's a skin head Neo-Nazi is if they wear doc Martin's because apparently Doc Martin himself was that's what was told I didn't do research about Doc Martin himself our fact Checker could check that but I but I did find the ADL wrote that neonnazi white supremacists wear steel toed work boots made my made by D by Doc Martin and wearing such boots was and is typical of racist skin heads uh they use red and white colored by Brody I thought that was I just thought that was a fascinating piece of trivia also maybe a little bit could you lift up your foot for those watching on YouTube I would lift up my foot I'm actually wearing my sandals Sands I got my not we already got all dressed up for the occasion so when when did it start for you to wear doc Martins that's like your signature everyone knows Jeff cell in The Old City wears those saddle shoes right you see saddle shoes in The Old City you know you're you're talking to Jeff Sidell and if you see doc Martins in Florida you know you're talking to RAB by Josh Brody so are you are you a Skinner or a SK can I just tell you that there are people that aren't sure if they if it's really me and I notice they look down for a second they're like it's you I know because I I know the shoes now I'll just say that you know two things about this number one is that it is the only pair of shoes that I own these are sandals but I don't own another pair of shoes and I wear them during the week and on shabas the only day we don't wear them is Tisha and and yum Kipper but I've been wearing these same boots since I think it was ninth grade so not the same pair not the same pair I get a new pair every two that because don't like change or you're so Allin yeah represents that you don't want to I don't know it's like a I don't know I I just feel like I found something I like so why mess with it what what happened in ninth grade what were you going through in ninth grade okay that's a good question where did you discover like who did you see and you're like I need those shoes yeah so I'll tell you it was actually very interesting and I also also point out that up until about two years ago because you know they're it's a it's a shoe that's made in England and they have different sizes than we do I think we're a size off I don't have the biggest feet I just let for the record and I don't remember if we're size up or we're size down but for about 25 of those years I was wearing the wrong size shoe and I only recently found out that I was wearing one size too big and it actually fits a lot better now so just want to let you know but going back it was it was just a look I love the look uh I don't know if you remember my M was was too young but there was a a time where you would wear shorts shorts with the boots yeah your time was like last month when you came back from Israel right you still fly in in t-shirt shorts and Doc Marton trying to bring it back a little bit you're gonna next time you're gonna get stopped at the airport they're gonna think you're actually a a white supremacist you know i' I've been accused of a lot of things and I can tell you that some of those things are true probably but this one is not true I am not a white supremacist I'm not a Neo-Nazi I just love the look of the boots and even though I could easily trade out to another company there are other company Sketchers they make boots it's not the same it's not the same it has that yellow lace and I just I I feel connected to something I don't it's not it's not the neo-nazis it's there's a look it's a do not do not start using um let's see neo-nazis use according to the ADL red or white colored shoelaces to ident themselves as white P white power skin heads it's also traditional for them to lace boots with ladder lacing so the lace don't cross each other going up the boot I cross cross yeah if you cross your laces then then you can still stay on behind the beam exactly and I actually do wear these shoes on the beima so it's it's so they I've worn them worn in Nell every day I've worn them in tus mosa and you know what that's the way it is Doc Marts yeah so if you see doc Martins you know it's Josh bro going undercover to infiltrate the neonazis sometimes bigger than uh than than I we're supposed to well let's shift you know as they say in learning May in I just say I was enjoying that riveting conversation about no no no this is actually I'll take it to another level because I think this is this is when you mentioned that to me and over the years I've had I've heard people say that and haven't done a lot of research but the question is when you do something and then all of a sudden you find out that it's not the right thing I've heard drous on this I remember my friend you know gave a one of these like cold turkey you just you know there the great people they hear something and then all of a sudden they like you know what done it's over I did it for 30 years that's the way it is and I'm not doing it anymore yeah but I didn't do that and maybe I should I I that was not my initial reaction when I maybe we'll take you shopping today Rabbi Klein lived in our community Klein or Survivor very special person when his daughter you know like many people and at that time he used to smoke a lot and he said he once picked his daughter or his daughter came home from school and he picked his daughter up because they in the car and she said I learned in school today that smoking is bad for you why do you smoke he said he took the packet out of his jacket pocket he tore the pack of cigarettes in half and never touched another cigarette so there are people there are people like that I heard a story like that over Shu I was talking to someone about how they became more religious they said they sent their child to a religious Day School you know to push themselves a little bit they weren't there yet and one day their child comes home and is like but I heard about the shabas thing but then why do we watch TV play on our phones and the parents said I was so embarrassed about the hypocrisy in my house they said on the spot they just he looked looked at her she looked at her husband and they decided they were going to be shower shabas going forward that was it like one comment from their child and that was it it's powerful imagine if you could make a statement that you informed me and then I just said you know what I'm done I don't even maybe we could tell that story one day look you're wearing sandals today just to but shifting to a little bit of a different topic but also connected to Frank mink our Our Guest this week and his life Journey so congratulations to R Moscow it's his Boston Celtics won the won the title wow and and we were having a discussion um so they played the the Mavericks the Dallas Mavericks the Dallas Mavericks are owned by a Jew Mark Cuban who's a proud Jew and not as outspoken as he could or should be since October 7th certainly but has been a proud Jew um but he has a a a member on the team one of the stars on the Dallas Mavericks is Kyrie who is a worldclass world famous anti-semite who wore a cafia to press conferences following games so mosit contends that you cannot you could not root for the Dallas Mavericks in this in this series if they have an anti-i their team so anti-semite player trumps Trump's Jewish owner and you can't you can't root for them and even though the Boston Celtics themselves have a player who by the way defended Kyrie when he made his original anti-islamic statements even though the Boston Celtics Boston is a notoriously anti-semitic City who Boston I you know I remember hearing that so I Googled it because I wanted to just confirm it and it's true historically Boston has a history a history of of racism and anti-semitism I'm not saying today right New York has none of that at all um I will also just say Boston Celtics do have a coach that announced that should his team win the championship he they not he they are GNA go to Israel and he's a very religious individual and um I think hearing that plus knowing Kyrie's background and his history with anti-Semitism his unwillingness to back down from anti-semitic opinions to me it's a no-brainer I don't how much so which begs the question how much should all of this impact who you root for in sports so when you when you for a team should you go through the personal views of all the players in the team and if you know where's the line so let's say I agree with you let's say Kyrie over the line such a blatant he's the poster of anti-Semitism right now that look I agree but then you have some you know more nuanced right our fact trer spoke to us about that too when we were talking to him about this so let's say LeBron who wants who wants retweeted anti-semitic lyrics now I'm not saying LeBron is an anti-semite I don't think he's an anti-semite I mean he's named shottenstein is one of his personal mentors I don't think LeBron is an anti-semite but he's tweeted anti-semitic lyrics let's say you have other people who live in that gray can you now not cheer how much in is sports really just about who gets the ball in the basket the best or what's my hometown and who am I rooting for or no once you learn the personal views of players and the like that should impact how you root for sports so I'll take this one because Rabbi bro we're talking about basketball where you shoot the ball into the Hoops not where you kick with sports in General is irrational let's just acknowledge that the whole notion that you and I were cheering on teams and we care about these guys make billions of dollars they could care less about us this is all irrelevant who you root for is completely irrational so once you establish that as a fact and I know we GNA get emails don't you know this okay we get it like sports is irrational there has to be a line though where you mark in the sand you say I cannot put that person on this pedestal now none of these people likely belong on a pedestal none of these people should be heroes for our children right but once you get past that and okay we're all going to root for sports and our kids are going to like and it's a great Outlet certainly for our boys there has to be a Line in the Sand I'm not saying that Jason Tatum is the greatest thing since sliced bread but there has to be a Line in the Sand when you say I cannot root for the guy a guy who gets up there and says anti-semitic things who wouldn't back down who was in New York and and in in in insulted all New York jewelry you you just you have to have a line of the S where you say I cannot celebrate that person in my house yeah okay and can I just say a parallel would be in the in the world of Music there are many outspoken anti-semites of people that maybe I like their music and all of a sudden now I've I've deleted their music and it's very very diff difficult for you that's a big challenge because you had to balance rooting for an anti-semite versus rooting for a team from Boston I know you felt very conflicted about that now thank God I I don't really care and I don't really follow and I really watch so that was very useful but I couldn't whereas other members of our staff were like R moscs I'm rooting for the Celtics to blow them out yeah Kyrie I wasn't rooting for the Celtics blow anybody out but but yeah definitely there's some element of of conflict because they just can't root for the Celtics but again the question becomes you know it's complicated what if there were a member of the Celtics or the Boston Red Sox who said you know I think Israel is doing a genocide in Gaza the poor innocent civilians America sto funding them I've had it would you say I would have a really I would have a really hard time rooting for that you'd be against that player you annoyed about the player I have a hard time rooting for that team stop being a Red Sox fan no I'll tell you honestly and we're getting a little like Rabbi here part of what made it so easy to root for this Celtics team was that they were a good team in other words all the values that you and I espouse of unity of selflessness of humility like they didn't just talk that talk they really walked it he had players that could have been making more money that could have been earning better statistics and they all suppressed that they gave up of themselves like they're really good values on this team I'm not saying everyone deserves after Yona but there were good values that you could celebrate I if if Kyrie were on that team or if there was someone on that team that was saying that type of stuff I would have a really hard time rooting for that team I really would so if we discovered that Tom Brit I'm just joking it is I think it's a fasc I'm by the way I don't have a strong position on this I'm not disagreeing with you I'm not disagreeing with you I agree I mean if so you would hold it against Mark Cuban that even though Kyrie may help your basketball team how could you have signed him the guys anti-semite it's not just about yeah I think he sold out his values because it was because he was trying to make money and by the way if I were talking to Mark Cuban right now and if he wants he's welcome to come on our show and I debate this with him but um I do think that Mark cubin has a mouthpiece he has a way of communicating to the world he's very outspoken on many issues and I do think he's been derel in his obligation to speak out on this issue which matters to American Jury so much has he said anything like at a press conference if people ask no no he's been avoiding it been avoiding it but he's the Celtics coach did if you remember right after October 7th the Celtics coach and I'm sure people can pull up this clip he was asked a question at P press conference he said before I answer the question I just want to acknowledge that there are things going on in this world that are much more significant and a much more value that there was a tragedy in Israel like he is a good person like that and I think to acknowledge that to have used his platform to espouse those values I think that should be celebrated yeah it is a bigger question already you know coming to you in music I think it is a fascinating one which is how much can we enjoy or consume from whether it's music sports or a brand of clothing we wear how involved do we get in in where people are holding because you know we've had a speaker here who wrote the book on IBM and the Holocaust and and there are other corporate relationships like that where should we boycott I boycott and I think we all lean probably in the same direction on this question but it's easy when there are blatant lines that are crossed you know if you collaborated with the Nazis back then or if now you're an anti-semite there's a line I think there's some Nuance in it which makes it more more complicated by the way you mentioned that like I have relatives I'm sure you do as well who to this day they can't look at a Mercedes they they they they clam up when they see a Jew driving a Mercedes so you know and this is 70 plus years later um but that still does impact people's psych psychological you know approach question it's an interesting conversation well Brody were I think you were wearing your Doc Martin when we had the conversation with Frank mink Frank is amazing we're grateful he gave his time and without any further Ado pleasure to bring to you Frank mink privilege to be joined by Frank mink Frank wow what a story you have when I first read it online I said we have to speak to this person who's lived several lifetimes in one member of the clu clutz Clan Neo-Nazi skin head who's been anti-semitic incarcerated is run with the wrong crowd fast forward now putting on Fillin praying three times a day studying with a rabbi and living a Jewish life and and Frank we got to we got to know that story because we're living in a Time anti-Semitism is exploding college campuses are on fire so many people are joining a movement of darkness and of of unfortunately of of evil and you can give us some Glimpse from the inside of that world a world that thank God you've graduated from and put behind you and now you're a source of so much light so tell us tell us a little bit about your life take us back to that child to that 13 years old when you first were introduced to this world how you you got drawn into it What attracted you what's happening in it and ultimately how you got out yeah so I I grew up to parents who uh we struggled we were on welfare as a kid um in a rough neighborhood in Philly and my my mom and dad were separated so um I would sometimes go back and forth between the two neighborhoods my mom gets remarried to a man who was an alcoholic and drug addict himself and he was uh he liked to uh put his hands on me a lot he was not a very nice human being to me that's the best thing I could say to him and and for any of you that just to give you a glimpse into my life man when I was 10 11 12 years old days when I would go home from school I would rather get hit by a car than go home some days like I literally would try to plan out let me get hit by this car now in South Philly just to be real everyone gets hit by cars you know even them little small condensed neighborhoods everyone gets run over by a car once or twice you know and um but it's always like a cousin that runs over so you can't Su just get run over you know but I used to literally plan to get run over by a car so I could just go to a hospital I didn't want to die I didn't it wasn't a suicide thing I just was hoping if I get hit by a car maybe I'm go to a hospital for the night and not have to go home with this man in my house so that's just where my train of thought was at the time anyway my mom and my stepdad eventually they kicked me out when I was 13 made me go live with my dad my dad lives up in a mostly black section of the city and I went to an all black school middle of the school year I'm this little kind of punk rock alternative kid and um so I kind of stand out as it is let Al but I was an athlete so I got along with a lot of some of the kids that I played sports with but other than that there was a lot of trouble at that school especially for a new kid a white kid a kid who really you know stood out and so um fist fought a lot with black kids that year and um that summer I got to go up to Lancaster Pennsylvania my cousins lived up in the Lancaster Pennsylvania area they didn't live in Lancaster they lived in Lancaster Pennsylvania area don't know if you know or you're familiar with the area but it's all Amish like it's really like that's their that's their Turf you know like you go up there you know that's their realm and uh I used to love it up there I was fascinated by that stuff you know those those people had pigs and chickens and cows and and they were you know it was National Geographics like they really turned butter you know like they really Liv that way and it was just fascinating stuff to me but my cousin who lived up there was kind of an angry kid he got picked out of South Philly now they live on a farm and he got moved away from his whole family and we were always really close as a kids because we grew up right around the corner from each other now they live in a farm and he hated it and kind of was always rebelling against his family up there and gotten in the punk rock got in the skateboarding not to say that that's all Rebellion but it was for him and I know you know just being real and I kind of got into that stuff with him too you know I always kind of looked up to him he was a little bit older than me and so uh I went up this one summer and uh I walked into his room and there was like a swasa flag and a Confederate flag and um there was you know newspaper articles about neo-nazis on its wall and and my my aunt and uncle are really good people and they think that they were someone was just going through phases you know what I mean so they weren't encouraging this life they're they're really really good people but they were just kind of like letting their son just go through some stuff I believe and so anyhow um my uh I go up there and you know my cousin came home and he looked different he didn't looked all punk rock anymore he kind of looked clean cut and clean shaven and and boots and all that good stuff and uh that at night man his um his other Neo-Nazi friends would come over and so I would start to ask questions you know like what's this about and I know that this wasti you know my grandpa fought in the War you know I knew this was like a bad symbol and uh they start to tell me that this is just for standing up for the white race and that you know like there was a picture of Hitler and I would say you know this is like a bad guy and they would say well no he just misunderstood and that you know it really was just for the hero for the white race and to purify the white race and and um they would say things like multi-racial Society don't work right I no idea what that means at 13 14 years old but once they start talking about blacks and whites not getting along I was like hm you guys don't even know like they don't even live around black people like I'm fist fighting black people I'm fist fighting black kids all the time in school like you guys don't even get it and I remember as my cousin would say to them like Hey whenever they would talk about black white issues my cousin would point out now I like that he kind of bragged about me he would say hey my cousin lives in a really rough neighborhood Frank tell him what is tell them what it's like and I would go and I would you know say yo I you know go to school with all these black kids whatever and they would I remember one time there was a girl who said she was like stood up in front of everyone this Neo-Nazi girl and she said so you're gonna tell me you take the bus with black people every day and I'm like yeah I got to take the L train every day like yes I take the bus with black people they couldn't fathom that I live around black people like that what and what that did to me was when those guys would start to talk to me about what my life was like as I explained to you my mom and dad situation yo when I came home with a black eye from school or a trophy from school my parents didn't say how'd you get that Frank how's life what's going on but when these guys were asked me what's it like to grow up around black people I was like oh someone's asking me about my life I like this fast forward a little bit but were were those people were they your friends with were you friends with them yeah they were I would consider my friends yeah I mean I thought they were super cool they were older guys they were older than me I was you know 13 14 they were 16 and they had cars and they had tattoos and they had brought girls around and they talked about fighting so I thought they were cool and I liked that I got to hang out with them you know I thought that was cool that's a lesson Frank that's the lesson number one is that you weren't necessarily a bad kid or looking to get mixed up in that but people are vulnerable and when someone shows a little love and gives a little attention people can get swept up even in things that they wouldn't or shouldn't believe in but they're finding a little love there in a world that's making them feel very alone and that's a huge lesson for us absolutely and then they on top of that we would go to I would go to concerts with them and we' go to like these little nightclubs and stuff and all these other neo-nazis would show up that ones that I didn't know but all these guys knew and their Network and then they would all show up at these nightclubs and they'd all get together and everyone was scared of them like you would see people come out of the nightclub and they would fear them and I would stand with these guys and I would see that look of fear and I love that I love the people feared me because I just feared every day going to school I feared my parents I feared my school I feared uh you know my stepparents I feared if I was gonna have enough food to eat some days and now someone fears me because I'm standing with these guys like I like that so what was funny is growing up in my neighborhood there's always ethnic jokes always you know that we had ethnic jokes for the black people that and now they all have jokes against us too you know it's South Philly like you're a pocket of Irish a pocket of Italian pocket of blacks pocket of cambodians pocket of Puerto Ricans and we all had jokes about each other and didn't like each other but there was one thing I remember I would go to the store or if my cousin went to the store and he come home and the guy gave him the wrong change at the store gave him you know didn't give him enough money back or whatever or someone they go oh you know Johnny tried to JW me and everybody laugh you know Ah that's funny right and or how they started Jewish parade to roll a penny down the street I remember hearing these jokes and I remember going to my uncle probably when was about 10 now so I'm going back a little bit when I was about 10 years old I went to my uncle one time and said why is that funny when you say Johnny tried to Drew you because everyone laugh and he started to tell me he goes see Frank the Jews are notorious for money and he stopped himself and he goes you'll get the joke when you're older you're not you're not gonna get it now you'll get the joke when you're older though it's a good joke when I go to my first real now I I decide to join the group this Neo-Nazi group now this is later from that moment but I'm join this group I decide I'm going to be part of this and I go to my first real Neo-Nazi Bible studies because they would do Bible studies for this and um I go there and there's this older guy this older preacher and he's talking about how the Jews secretly funnel money from the Federal Reserve to give to Israel and as he's talking about this I got the joke I got the joke I must be older now my uncle told me when I'm older I'll get the joke so these people must be unlocking something for me to be older now because I want to be older my parents and people the adults of my life left me to fend for myself so I want to know what they know so what I must be knowing is the truth now and it was little deals like that and going to these Bible studies just to give you an example of the insanity and it is insanity I give you this the story and the story that when you hear the story you're going to understand why you hear some of the crazy things you hear from the other side or not from that side is I would go there and they would say now I was born and raised Catholic now I've made all my sacraments as a kid everyone in my neighborhood made their sacraments that's what you do when you live in an Irish Catholic neighborhood you make your sacraments you go to church you go to mass you go on the you know the Christian high holiday type thing I go on Christmas and Easter I go to always go to mass you know that type of stuff well anyhow my your family I mean when I would go to these Bible studies and these these ministers or these preachers of this new way of belief not my Christ not my Catholicism this Neo-Nazi World these guys would say okay the story of Adam and Eve they would say you know Eve goes eats the fruit gets in trouble she now you know runs back and has Adam eat the we know we all know that story they would say that's not what happened what happened was Eve went back to this serpent man at the tree so Eve Hur up runs back to Adam and has the deal with him so that she can lie and say that Cain is his so now we got the first myy Povich episode going this is their story and that when Cain comes out and then later on kills Abel that Cain is actually the seed of the devil and that's why he's envious and that he is the first evil Jew on the planet because he's from the Devil the serpent now father wasel and Sister Mary Agnes at my Catholic school never taught me that story so when I would say to them I would had enough konas to say I never heard this story before they said God chose you to know it now Frank the Jews are the seed of Satan okay and I gotta tell you guys at 14 years old I completely bought into this ABS Frank were the other people in the group equally vulnerable meaning did you see that as a trend that the people who would believe this who would join this group who would who would put on these T get these tattoos who spread this hate did they have any common denom were they all from broken homes or vulnerable underprivileged backgrounds was there something uniting them in that way yes there's a lot of people that had the these issues um sorry there's lawn work going on of course it's everything um but yes there was a lot of people that had these issues um not people that come from real really good homes um you know who respect their mom respect their dad aren't going to come home with swas is tattooed on them you know what I mean they just but now again it's not all of them there are some that came from good homes and there were some that came from homes who preached this stuff already you know what I mean so there was a little diverse group but a lot of us had issues almost all of us had some type of issues when I look back on it now yes so so you're so you're you're joining this movement you're with neo-nazis you start getting these tattoos anybody in your life pushing back are you coming home I know at one point you had a swasti a tattooed on your neck you're coming home with these images on you is anyone even if you didn't have you know the greatest Role Models but is anyone saying Frank what what is going on here yeah well not really um by the time I was 15 I moved out of both my parents house and I just Liv with the movement I went from compound to compound because it just the way it worked out for me I sto I never went to high school so I to this day I've never got a high school I never never went to high school wow um so my mom I remember I came home when I was 15 and I had the swastick on my neck and my mom was just came up to me and said what are you doing you know that was like that was it that was the extent but I didn't live with her anymore like I barely came around anymore so um so yeah I didn't live with her so I mean I had a couple people that push back on some of this Wasa stuff but um I was a throwaway kid I mean I literally was a throwaway kid so were were there Jewish people living in your community did you ever meet a Jew and what happened the first time you actually did meet a Jew we so I so here that comes back to a long story there were some Jewish people that I didn't know they were Jewish I mean they just everyone kind of just molded into the Irish Catholic neighborhood at the time you know mean so um I didn't know you know really what I knew that there was a girl that lived that she was really cute girl when I was growing up her last name her name was Susan Cohen and I remember she lived at the end of my block and I guess you know I knew later on that they were Jewish but back then I didn't know even know Cohen was a Jewish name growing up as a little kid now you know what I mean so I didn't even know um I later on found out you know I got into all this stuff and later on talked to her and her family and they're like you know we're Jewish and I was like like yeah her last name is Cohen I was like oh I didn't even know so that was a whole you know growing up as a kid though you know as long as your last name wasn't Italian we didn't care like that was uh that was our neighborhood so um if you were white you know so um so I didn't know any Jewish people really growing up no not Jewish Jewish people no and when you when you finally met that Jewish person was it was it shocking first of all they they're white they look like you were you like you're expecting to see some horns were you expecting to see something different um you know no it wasn't like that when um no when I when I knew that Susan Cohen just to give you an example of Susan and her family who I knew and then she had three older brothers um you know they were always kind of the they were kind of like cool kids on at the end of our block like I said Susan was like a beautiful beautiful girl growing up like every everyone in our neighborhood at the hot for Susan so um that but you again I didn't I didn't go back home like that um so when I started to talk to Susan and her family to find out that that was years later so it doesn't really fit into where when I the Jewish people that I did know um existed uh weren't much of a factor in my life at that time to even have any thought process it was the collective group of Jewish people is what I could hate um so I didn't think about individuals and again growing up in my neighborhood I would be able to write it off as ah they're not really Jewish or whatever but again I didn't find out I didn't even know about Susan and her family until years later until I moved away and went on this whole big journey and then kind of came back and was like oh yeah Susan coh so anyway so that what I could tell you on the meeting well if we go to like how I started to meet the first Jewish people was like years before you even get to that Frank how did somebody get kicked out of the clue clutz Clan I know you're 15 years old you get kicked out you form your own group with your cousin Strike Force getting a tattoo in your lip the incarceration what what is a like to us you know cluc Cut's Clan is like the epitome of of what does a person do to get kicked out of the clan I was too violent they said for them me and my guys were too violent for the clan they were like you guys got to go like you you're just said you're giving us a bad name yeah yeah they said that's that that was their words you're giving us a bad name you guys are too violent for us but they didn't want to lose our numbers because we had such huge numbers by the time I got into this movement and started to recruit for the movement at 15 not just a coincidence but I know I had a little bit to do with this I don't want to be too egotistical Pennsylvania at that time becomes the leading hate state in America Southeast Pennsylvania from Philadelphia to Allen toown to reading to Lancaster and back to Philly made a triangle and in that triangle there's probably about 400 of us in that triangle uh of all different Neo-Nazi sects I mean you have your Christian groups you have your odist you have your clansmen you have this and that and this and that so they kicked us out we had a huge numbers by that time already we' already recruited a lot and we've really done a lot of recruiting in in Philly and where I was because when I went back after I got became a neonazi I had to go back to Philly after I was at my cousin's house and I had a I had a lot of support in the suburbs and in the Farms but not in the city and the city was run by antifa you know that was their big stronghold and so they didn't take kindly to neo-nazis so what I did is I started recruiting kids out of my neighborhood and I'm not knocking the antifa thing but a lot of those kids were Suburban kids that came down to the city for the you know for this for the weekend I'm getting thugs out of my neighborhood to become neo-nazis and and I'll tell you this guys racism and especially the racism that I'm preaching and I don't know it at the time but I could tell you this as a fact now it's the greatest bait and switch right because I would go into these neighborhoods where people just want to be proud of their Heritage you know that's what they and and it gets kind of strange in a way because it's more of this uh I want to be proud to be white why can they say black pride and I can't say white pride or I'm considered a racist this is a real argument right these are real AR arents that people say why do they have Black Entertainment Television but we don't have White Entertainment Television that's a real thing that they say right not knowing that all television is White Entertainment there's not many black people on friends which was a very popular show or Seinfeld at the time you know there was so TV is white but you know we don't think of it like that we just see that they have bet why don't we have you know W for one it's not a really good Network when it's we that's more of a network for adults if you think about it so you don't want that Network you don't want that acronym but bet worked and that people would just complain and complain about this stuff and I'd say yeah man that's what our group's all about we're all we're all about you should be proud to be be white and we we should have these things so come join my group because that's what we're all about we're proud of our heritage come be part of our group and when you came to be part of our group we never talked about our heritage we talked about everyone else's heritage how it's messing up our country you right so there's it's a bait and switch hey we'll take this false pride and then we're going to turn it into hate so it's it's a bait and switch on on what pride is of your heritage and turns to violence and it turns to violence because once the powers go into your head and once you're running with the crew who've got the power you become you become violent is that is that an easy flip for somebody is it is it once you're sort of brainwashed on your part of a movement it feels Justified that you're and it was it was you don't have to spell it out but you got involved in some serious violence enough that landed you in prison yeah no you just dehumanize people you know you just have to dehumanize everybody and you know this is this is our group and and a lot of our violence wasn't even against other races a lot of our violence again like with me was against the leftwing groups and antifas and and that's what we did I mean that's what I went to prison for I kidnapped an antifa member and held him for ransom I mean that's was my business that's what I did um and so our group really grew and and the violence just became it it's just part of the nature and it's part of the that and you know that toxic masculinity the the you know I'm gonna force my will on you and if you don't like it then I'll just show you how strong I am by my numbers or by my strength you know and that's what we did and we would just take over little pockets of places all over Pennsylvania and um enough so that I got in a lot of trouble and had to move around the country like the movement used to hide me I used to go live in a safe house system a lot I lived all over Virginia Beach New York New Jersey um Indianapolis Illinois um there's a couple other little spots in there that I lived and so I would just they would send me off because I caused so much trouble but the movement needed me and I would have a bunch of little warrants for my arrest or I was being investigated and then the movement would just ship me off somewhere and you know because they didn't want to kill me because they would have they would have lost numbers because I I had a lot of recruits that rund me and stuff so they they liked me but they they they didn't like me but they had to deal with me and so the movement used to just ship me out all the time and I would go live in here and there anyway that's where I went up in springfoot Illinois where I like got my own cable access television show and was preaching a show called The Reich and I was preaching about being a Neo-Nazi and what's it like and we made the show kind of funny it was on cable access this is pre- internet so it was like a racist Wayne's World like we really were kind of funny and we did all this stupid stuff and it was a bunch of you know 17 18 year old guys doing this TV show and there was a hit in this little town of Springfield Illinois which is you know a big Civil Rights Town Springfield illino you know it's the home Abraham Lincoln well it's not really his home home but they claim his Home Springfield Illinois and uh you know it's one of the founding spots of the NAACP and has all this great civil rights feel for it and here's this neonazi group popping up recruit tons of membership out of the high schools and you know and that's what I did I just recruit out of high schools all the time and I was a high school Age kid so me saying that now looks a little creepy but I was a I was a teenager doing it so I don't want you think I was a gray Air beard stand Standing Outside I remember I was teenager and I was recruiting out of the high schools because that's who I related to and that's who I get a get so now turns out going to prison was one of the best things that happened to you you met a couple inmates in there that started to to change your mind and the way you saw things yeah no prison was definitely it's definitely part of the story I'll tell you guys a spiritual story that happened to me in there um while I was in there I was in the hole a lot because of my age I was the youngest kid in the prison so they used to keep me in segregation a lot just just for my protection like I didn't ask whatever just a situation that happened they used to keep me in the hole and so I would read and uh I read a bunch of religious stuff and um you know I was reading the the Christian Bible and I read the book of Mor Mormons I read just was reading and um I remember I was reading a part about fasting and you guys are like this I so I read this part in one of the books about fasting and it said if you fast God will reveal himself to you but you cannot brag or boast that you're fasting like you can't go around go I'm fasting look at go you know God's my boy um and plus I'm insane at the time now I'm in there on trial for kidnapping um I'm I'm was going to fast because I wanted God that's what I really wanted I was like God if you're real you'll kill all the guards and you're gonna let me go home like that's what you're you're gonna pop my door you're gonna kill all the guards on Monday because I'm gonna do a whole weekend fast and then on Monday I'm going home like I'm insane so I do this fast and the warden of the jail keeps coming to me and he keeps saying why are you not eating and now said you cannot brag or boast that you're fasting for God so I can't tell you so he's thinking I want a hunger strike right right so the warden on Sunday that's my third day of my fast the warden pulls me out of my C and says why are you not eating I said I can't tell you I felt like saying to him I can't tell you but you better go home and say goodbye to everybody because today's the last day because I'm going home right I'm insane but I'm like I can't tell you and he says are you trying to kill yourself I said nope not trying to kill myself though no not doing that he says how about this Mr mink I don't think you belong in segregation in the hole if you eat tomorrow because it's been three days he goes if you eat tomorrow I'll put you in general population and I remember even though I was already going to eat tomorrow anyway I said to him yeah man for you I I'll eat tomorrow sure you know I'll give it to you and he says all right I I'll I'll put you in general population if you eat tomorrow so the next day I eat my food and uh he comes to me and he says let's go and I remember there's this overwhelming sense of this feeling that God is real not because he didn't do what I wanted because he God's Not Gonna Be not going to do what I want I'm insane but he's going to give me what I needed and that was to get me out of a cellblock where I had started talking to myself I had started talking to myself the segregation in the hole for whatever political or whatever realm people want to talk about prisons or it's not good for a human being and I've been in there for four months and I started talking to myself and here God was like I'm not going to give you what you want but I'll definitely give you what you need got put me in general population where I started meeting some of the black inmates who I became cool with jell and G say jello and G Jo and G well I met yeah Joell I met G in the county and then I meet Joell Upstate but then G comes up Upstate too but so yeah I walk in and um the general population and there was this other young black kid in there and you know in there in you're in the county jail you don't keep your big gang affiliations you know because you're just waiting trial and you're trying to be a good guy and you're h that you get you know light sentences so you're not trying to cause trouble in the county jails and this is a huge County Jail um you're trying to just be cool and do your time until you can get to your trial and there was this kid G that came over and just one day started talking to me and he was super funny super cool kid and he was the same age as me and he taught me how to play the game spades card game and he didn't just teach me how to play he taught me how to cheat because there's ways of cheating when you play spades and he taught me how to cheat and then we went and played all these older inmates all the time and we would always win and take their peanut butter and jellies which was like my thing and so we would like play these older inmates for peanut butter and jellies and we'd always win because we cheated like we had little hand signs on what cards to come back and it's a whole big thing and um you know we were just cool like it just so I want him getting sentenced to three to five years or you know three years is the term but uh they send me up state prison and when I get up State Prison that's when I start running into a couple other black kids now mind you this is an American History X here this isn't I didn't like leave my gang in prison or none of that I stayed totally cool with my gang I did all my Aran gang stuff in prison every day I mean it wasn't i' never seen any difference in it this is my gang that's their gang but when I got time to play sports or play football or play basketball yeah that's who I I played with the black kids because I'm not stereotype in here but when you all my gang members my arens they're all bikers from Southern Central Illinois they don't know how to dribble a basketball not knocking them they know how to fix a transmission at two years old but they don't know how to dribble a basketball I do I grew up playing sports my whole life so I knew how to play football I knew how to create old football I knew how to do a spin move these guys were just big ogs and God God bless them that's who they were that's who they are but when I want to play Real Sports and I want to play with competitive people I played with G and Jello and some of the Vice Lords and some of the other guys that were black kids on my subblock who played and were good and so you know you just kind of bond with some guys and we used to just talk um we were all the same age too I was the youngest in my gang in the gang um they were a lot of the youngest guys in their gang um I kind of had a lot of pull because again I went to prison on a really respectable crime like there's respectable and you know there's crimes you know child stuff and stuff against women that is not respectful and those people get tortured in there and that's just what it is just the truth but when you come in there and you kidnapped your wife gang member and held him for ransom that's that's up there on the the respect thing like like he's a real thug you know he's a real g whatever so I had this whole little and plus I had a TV show on the outside so all the arens love me I mean I was like this little celebrity they all knew about my TV show so I I it was just a crazy situation and Hashem totally took care of me and there like I was not one of these young kids in there I was scared I was like never I ran around like a nut in there I was a little kid but played Sports drank alcohol did drugs which I never done before because I was always just so you guys know the Neo-Nazi groups I came up with no drugs allowed at all like because we were all doing criminal stuff all the time and just the rule of the streets is a drug addict will be the first person to snitcher on your crew so you just don't we weren't allowed to do drugs plus we thought drugs was ruining the white race and that it was all big p from the Jews was to get drugs to white people so that you know trust me we're always at fault we're always at fault just so you know that there's so there's so much to talk to you about I know mosque want to jump in also but maybe just finish up the story and then we want to unpack it together because there's so much to talk about but I know you get out you're 19 years old you get a job with with Keith brooken yeah about that this Jew hires a young kid with a swastika on his neck how does that happen so I get out of prison and um I'm I'm still involved at the neo-nazis but I have different feelings towards black people just from the just from the real reality of life and I seen that like prison is not a really good situation for the way we're doing it in America it's just mass incarceration I can kind of see this this is you know and that there's kids in there and I just want to say this guys there's kids in there that did not belong in there I mean I kidnapped I I admit I belonged in there there were other kids man that that they were just throwaway kids and just doing time and and and just man it was just a bad situation and so I seen that so I started just to see on different issues like black white Latino I'm like you know what we're all equal man I got this but to stay part of my Neo-Nazi group still gonna hate the Jews like I mean that was a real thought process that was a real deal I had in my head I was like you I can still preach that I could preach all that all day long but I'm not going to preach so much on the black and white thing anymore you know so I have this little Epiphany and then here I'm looking for work and when you have a big swas stick on your neck and you have tattoos all over your head and you know aggravated kidnapping on your record as any of you might know that run a business or a good HR firm I'm not a good highe these ain't good people skills you know what I mean these aren't good this swastic on the neck isn't good people skills so you know so a guy a buddy of mine says he can get me a job just for the weekend carrying it on antique furniture and if I would do it and I I needed the money I hadn't had any work since I got home from prison really and I said yeah I'll do this job I I'll take this job and 100 bucks a day carrying on antique furniture I was like I'll take it my buddy goes but the guy that owns the company he's a Jew Now Keith isn't religiously Jewish but Keith is upper east coast Jewish he's very are you what you do just all the time you know what I mean just funny not funny just the way he was all the time so he's pretty amazing man so Keith gives me the job and I tell my buddy I said hey did you tell Keith about me like this swap stick he said yeah I told him all about you my buddy was actually a Neo-Nazi too that he hired but he wasn't like as active as I was but anyway it doesn't matter so I said you would you tell Keith about me and he said yeah Keith said he doesn't give a rats but what you believe just don't break his furniture and I showed up and I worked for this man and three days I made tons of money and tips I made way more than I was supposed to make just from his pay him paying me I made like $600 in tips and so at the end of the day the last day I go there and here's something that we all do unless you're so spiritual you'll feel it right off this planet but you ever have like those little resentments of people at work or whatever and you think you plan out arguments sometimes in your head and you'll be driving to work thinking about if he says this today I'm gonna say that and I'm gonna have a whole big argument planned out you know what I mean it's it's like a resentment it's like a cat with a ball you like argue yourself argue what you're going to say to that person well I had that argument with Keith in my head about him not paying my paying me my money that he's gonna say hey I know you made $600 in tips that's your money that's your pay not the $300 that he additionally owes me so at the end of the Sunday we're putting up the truck and he comes up and he says hey I owe you money and I'm like yeah you do how much I owe you I said $300 he's like oh yeah that's right that's right so he pulls out the lot of money that he had made from selling furniture fored this weekend and he so here's one here's two here's three you know what here's an extra hundred bucks you're a good worker and all I thought in my head was you son of a gun you ruined it I had this F waiting for you you know I had put out landmines waiting for this argument so I could say you're chewing me and then uh Keith paid me and he says hey can I give you a ride home and he gave me a ride home in this big truck through South Phil which is and he tells me the house South Phil used to be his neighborhood back in the 50s and he talked about the synagogue that used to be on Fourth Street that I remembered as an abandoned building as a kid that burnt down not because it was a synagogue was abandoned building and I lived in a neighborhood full of thugs who burnt B abandoned buildings down all the time like it was a thing to do but so I remember talking to him about he's like yeah that used to be my synagog w I like okay and then as he dropped me off he says Frank what do you do for a living I pointed to the swas because my swastic is blazing in him he's driving I'm the passenger is right there boom bow said dude I don't I don't do anything he says why don't you come work for me and I went to work fulltime for him and as I worked full-time for him was just a great man just a good good man who did very kind things for me and would always say things to me and uh we used to drive together and it was during the OJ Simpson murder trial or around that time so we used to hear about this DNA thing and we used to drive around in the truck and he had a whole Warehouse full of people that worked for him in two storefronts and he would pick me to go with him a lot we drive in a truck and we talk about life and DNA and we listen to the radio and news radio and we talk about this and talk about that and so just so you guys know people like me because again I'm I'm broken I'm I'm a broken human being and so when I would make a mistake my quickest defense is man I'm so stupid man I'm so stupid Keith I'm so sorry I'm so stupid I used to say things to me and finally one day I broke something and I said yo Keith I'm so stupid I'm so sorry and he grabbed me by my neck and he said stop saying you're stupid you idiot clean it up and let's go and I cleaned it up and we got in the truck and we're driving home and he just gave me this pep talk that no one's ever given me in my life and it wasn't even like Keith playing this stuff out Keith isn't that he's a good man but not like I'm changing this guy I'm doing this he just tired of hearing me say this stuff so he's like Frank stop saying you're stupid man like you're one of the smartest people I've I don't know if he said I ever met or he's like you're one of the smartest people I know you're really smart and he's like Frank I'm gonna tell you something smart people can fake being dumb but dumb people can't fake being smart you just are why do you think he took such an interest in you out of you said he had employees he had storefronts what what do you think caused him to take an interest in in helping you because I'm cool we just got along we just got along we just like we just got along like when we be in the truck we we see things in the same way or um you know I don't know like he just I was kind of that that was my job at the the company I was kind of the utility guy he hired me but there was everyone had kind of set jobs and my job was to do help this guy or help that guy and then when he used to go drive to get furniture I was kind of that guy like I us hey get in a truck let's go we're gonna go pick up something in North Jersey or wherever we had to go we drove all over the east coast to go you know day trips you know to New York Philly whatever all around Jersey on the Pennsylvania and we just in Delaware we just I was the guy that he just picked to go in the truck with him and we would just always have these great conversations all the time about life and his journey he used to tell me about his journey and about how he got sober and started work or you know stopped doing hard drugs and started working doing this job and how you know I just respected him so that day not really on on your path right meeting the right people in prison and getting this job and this Mentor who would expose you to a different side of of Jewish people it's like God was holding your hand was there an example of people that you met whether they were Jewish or black or or or anything that you didn't like that you were friends with beforehand like maybe you were neighbors or maybe you played ball together and then you just felt compelled to now I gotta hate you but then they put their arm around you and they were like dude we're we're still I'm the same guy what what happened and you just could what how does that work there was there was a a black guy black kid I grew up with named Montes grew up my dad and neighbor with him love the guy uh we used to listen to Guns and Roses all the time together super cool kid and um when I became a neonazi um he was kind of hurt by it you know and he's one of the only people in my life I made a lot of amends in my life but he was one of the only people I went back to just about my beliefs and my that I made amend we were at a at a party one night this was years and years and years ago when I got out again I've been out of the movement now almost 30 since 1994 so yeah 30 years um uh so yeah I mean but he I remember I mean I remember him saying some things to me sometimes where be like you know he always like I'm always gonna be cool with you as he used to say with me like he's like I always and and he like still had my back on some things it was crazy like growing up in our neighborhood I mean he just was a person who still had my back because we were we we were good friends when we were kids so um so yeah but he was one of the only people that uh I made a personal amends to and said hey I'm really sorry I went the way I did and how that all went down and and he was always like Frank you're always crazy man don't worry about it but cool and we've are great friends to this day I mean we talk a good bit so you spend your whole life hating Jews hating people you're part of this movement all of a sudden you meet this Jewish business owner who takes you under his wing helps you out a little bit how does that Propel you to the next stage what connected the dots there to all of a sudden say you know what maybe I'm on the wrong path and I should change well yeah well by the time Keith had this talk with me like I said other parts of my beliefs were changing you know on the Black and Latino and the Asian issue like things were changing and I remember at the end man it just I felt like I was banging my head against a wall to keep believing these things and things that I would hear from the movement sounded really dumb and I know this not the best professional term for it but it just sounded dumb like I would hear things and I would go wow that sounds so stupid like that's not true at all but I was like but I still wanted to stay part of the group well Keith dropped me off one day and uh he had had to talk with me and I thought he was gonna fire me because I broke something I broke a marble to table or something something kind of expensive and uh and he just gave me my full pay and and I remember the way he just looked at me said I'll see you on Monday because he dropped me off it was Friday it was gonna be the weekend so he just gave me my full pay he said hey I'll see you on Monday right I remember walking back to my mom's that day and I was fully naed out doc Martin's red laces flight jacket Confederate flag the whole the whole thing right and I'm walking back to my mom and house my mom's house at day and I just remember there was this overwhelming feeling over me man what are you doing like I'm showing you if was God I don't know I'm showing you this is wrong like you're wrong wrong Frank like you're just wrong it's okay like it's time to stop and I just remember thinking like I can't I remember as I walked home I had these Neo-Nazi boots on and I just couldn't wait that was my biggest Drive I just remember that day my biggest Drive was I just want to get home and get these boots off I don't I felt like that's what people looked at and said oh that's a neonazi right so I just had this image in my head so I remember I walk briskly back to my mom's house and as soon as I walked in the door I just ripped my boots off I RI I was like I'm done and I put him in a bag and it's just like I just remember thinking like what I got to do is that I'm just not going to identify as this anymore like if someone says oh that's Frank the Neo-Nazi I'm gonna say no I'm not I'm not or I'm not gonna wherever the Neo-Nazi friends and all my cohorts and comrad are gonna be I'm not going I'm just not gonna go anymore I'm just gonna stop and now I was blessed because I grew up in South Philly so I had tons of friends that I grew up with like tons of friend you know we're all related down in South Philly like my neighbor hood are all second and third cousins from each other and you know just a huge neighborhood with all these Irish kids and um and I just grew up with I played sports with all those kids so I had a whole another group of friends to shift to and that was good and bad I mean it's great that I got to get away from the neo- Nazis but a lot of my friends down in there kind of like you see in movies kind of the thuggish drug dealer guys that's my neighborhood it's my mom is my dad is so I kind of switched over and went back to hanging out with those guys but at at least I had some type of parachute to go to you know what I mean that's all and then they were amazing and my friends are amazing and a lot of them are sober now but it was a rough rough group of people I grew up with and so but I got to make that little shift and so I just stopped being around them and and it to my core it d drove me man that I like did not like this belief anymore and then the Oklahoma City bombing happened and that's when it all changed I was in a grocery store in Philly and I seen this bombing and I'm never for yet man this guy who goes oh my God they blew up a they blew up a federal building in Oklahoma and he and he said I think it's you know Muslims and d and I was I knew I swear it was over one of them sense of being I was like many Muslims man I know I lived in I lived in safe houses where all we talked about was blowing up federal buildings that's all we talked about was starting this race War by messing with the federal government and killing killing the federal government so we can you know separate the country I mean that was our that's that's all we talk about all right that's it just going after a federal government and and and and I I seen it and I went back to my house and I was sitting in and I was talking with some friends of mine and everyone's in shock and I'm like I my friends to this day it's in it's in my book some of my friends I interviewed for my book will tell you I turned to him and said I'm probably gonna know who did this I didn't know Timothy McVey but I know a hundred Timothy MC and I was one of them I'm telling you guys I was completely radicalized I don't want you to look at me as if I was in a room back then and I was at a safe house and someone came in with the keys to a U-Haul and said hey Frank we need someone to drive I would have said okay in a second in a second I was completely radicalized and now I seen it unfold and I seen that picture of that dead little girl in that fireman's arms a very famous picture and at the time man it wasn't a very famous it was just a picture that stuck to me and I couldn't stop it this overwhelming sense of guilt and fear and anger and I couldn't release it who am I going to go talk to my South Philly friends and be like hey guys you know I didn't really tell any I besides the one comment about I might know who did this I never told my South Philly friends where I'd been and what I'd done they knew I went to prison that was it so I went to the FBI and I told them everything and then the FBI talked to me for a while you know and then uh I didn't want to inform on any I just wanted to relieve myself of this and who can I talk to and then they pushed me on to the Anti-Defamation League the ADL was the first groups and then they said hey will you the ADL have me go speak for them and then a couple people said hey come speak at the school for us and I'll tell you guys I just felt like I had a Karma scor I had a really bad like a credit scorer I had a really bad karma score and so I wound up did the a did the FBI try to convince you to stay in and be an informant that and therefore you could help from the inside was that part of a conversation they had some talks with me but then I went to a Flyers game with the FBI agent one of the FBI agents me and him went to a Flyers game and he informed me that they knew that I like I just didn't have it any like I was you know I'll never forget we were at Flyers G he's like yeah we were thinking about asking you to do that but we see it's not in you I'm like no I can't I don't I I want to I don't want to be around that right now like my soul can't take being around that right now and you jumped you said yeah you went to the FBI and then they sent you to the ADL and then you spoke for the ADL there there are a few steps in there that there are see you meet with the ADL all of a sudden you're learning about anti-semites that conversation look like when you sit down with the ADL and they're gonna educate you and put you on a different path oh well they didn't educate me what they did was they at so the first time I ever met was with the regional director of Philadelphia ADL his name is Barry Mar who's still a man of great and a man I idolized in a way he was really still is a very great man who um he's actually the first man just fast forward first man I ever confessed that I was an alcoholic to was him and uh and uh he was very kind to me and told me some personal stories about people he knew that close to him and so just so you know but then I went to the ADL of the FBI hooked us up and and uh and I remember I went and met with the ADL and the first time they met me they met me with bodyguards because in one of their pamphlets that they have the ADL put out you know their informational pamphlet about all the anti-Semitism in the country so the book they have from it's from 87 to 93 it says on the the years I'm in the book like I don't know 12 times there's stories about me and it's from all these different incidents and all these different reports and I'm in there like 12 times so when they met me they were like not really like is this guy really changed and so when we met and I just told him everything about what I felt and where I was going and and and the same thing happened with the FBI just the same thing happened I'll tell you is when they came to me with incident same thing NL did to me they came to me and they said well what do you know about this incident and I was like oh yeah I was there I was there and this happened and this happened and so and so stabed so and so and I was standing right there when that happened and they're like well what about this incident and I was like no I wasn't there I I I wasn't there I don't I don't know what really happened to that when that driveby shooting I wasn't really there you know and what they knew and what they both did was they already knew all the stories they knew the truth and they were just trying to see if I was going to be honest with them and if I was either going to do the I was the biggest baddest Neo-Nazi ever and I did it all or I was going to pull the I didn't do anything I was just in the car with the bad guys you know and I wasn't I was just I was like yeah I did that I was there when this happened yep I know so and so blah blah blah and they just knew I was being honest with them so that's when they started they first asked me to go speak to like a couple Council meetings on racism and I want to spoke at those and then someone said hey we you go speak at the school I was actually Barry Marson the the ADL guy so we you go speak at my daughter's class I think she was in third or fourth grade fifth grade maybe and I went and for the first time ever and told a group of kids my story horrible horrible I cried like uncontrollably and I did nothing but talk about vience because I didn't have any solution I didn't know I was you know so anyway that was horrible and uh when I later on I got done and Barry Maron came to me and like that was amazing and I was like amazing brutal I was like blowing snot in my shirt half the time it all stuck on my body it was disgusting it was nasty and anyway he says you did an amazing job and later on I got all these letters from these kids I thought when I got this packet from kids it was going to be like psychiatra bills but it was all thank you letters so Frank I I don't mean to be overly simplistic but just listening to the story what's striking me is the whole trajectory changes based on just people who are kind to you whether it was Barry who you described it so beautifully he was just like he was nice to you who treated you like a human being or whether it was Keith your employer who just treated you like a human being so much of this was built on hatred almost ignorant hatred of just you were angry you fell into the wrong crowd and what turned it was just people who choose to be chose to be kind to you instead of looking at externalities instead of looking at your past we're willing to give you a chance as a human being and that again not to be overly simplistic but the way you're describing it that seems to be where the entire change happens yeah it's funny it's kind of like God is love in a way love will do it you know people loving one another what change me you can scream at me that I was a horrible rotten human being I already felt that way but you told me I was a good person told me there was some hope I kind of gravitated towards it do you still feel the other book end of the beginning right the beginning was that you were down and out you were lonely you were underprivileged so they sucked you in and then the people said no you matter you mean something we're going to give you a chance we believe in you and that's what got you back and those are the two the two book ends so you get these tattoos removed obviously you don't have a swastic on your neck today and skin head from your knuckles and I know there's another part of the story in in a loss you suffered we're so sorry for that and and the recovery Rabbi but bring us to the point now about you now you're in touch with with Judaism I mean you go from being this you know on the top 10 world anti-semite list to now realizing I'm a Jew and and tell us today what you're up to you're putting on thill and you're studying with rabbis you're see you're wearing a kipa there you're wearing a yamaka there wow I mean take us to take us to the to where we're at today I knew the habab rabbi in De Moine Iowa from his restaurant I used to go eat at his restaurant uh he knew my book and my book and so I used to go eat at his restaurant and um I asked him to be part of the documentary so he says um okay uh you know says to he GES and I go to go film with him one day and then he says to me Frank is this documentary where you're gonna tell everyone you're Jewish and I'm like I'm not Jewish you know I mean I'm not Jewish and he had said that to me before he was like you're Jewish he just told me I look Jewish or something and I was like all right whatever and he's like you should look into your last name mink I think it's Jewish which it's not I just want to point that out right now it's not it's dutch it is just Dutch it's not Jewish he thought it was askanazi but I put that out on on social media to some family members and said hey Rabbi saying our last name might be Jewish my uncle who my uncle when I first became a Neo-Nazi when I was 14 he pulled me took me to dinner one day he was in a big Navy guy he was in the Navy lifetime Navy guy took me to dinner one time and said Frank why are you into this group and and he's talking about how then I should join the military that's the greatest strongest gang in the world and you know he's just giving me this little pep talk and then at the end and now my uncle's kind of one of them he's kind of like the Buster chops a lot he's kind of one of them uncles like there always had something smart to say about you you know just as a kid me and my Ne Me and my cousins didn't like him we always thought he was kind of just a jerk at the end of the conversation he goes Frank you know we're part Jewish and I didn't believe them I and I never thought about it again I swear I was whatever I thought he was just busting my chops you know what I mean never thought about again so anyway when I put this out on social media hey this Rabbi saying then we might be Jewish my uncle writes and says I told you this already and then my aunts all start jumping in and they were like yeah Grandma so great great Grandmom so and so Elizabeth she was Jewish she just happened to marry an Irish Catholic guy back in like 1915 or something right so they're all going back to the story so everyone's like yeah we are part of Jewish so then um [Music] I find out that I am do a DNA test and find out the askanazi I'm like this is insane right so I go back to the rabbi and I'm like yo isn't this crazy like I'm like this former neonazi finds out that I'm Jewish and he's like Noah you're just another self-hating Jew don't worry about it right so um so now guys just to fast forward just so I can give you some more good context for the your story just I got to be real with you um back in 2010 I was at a meeting I was at a gathering of people in recovery and I was in LA and this older Jewish man came over to me at a meeting at this Gathering and he says to me walks up to me he goes huh fellow he better better me at a gathering huh and at the time I was in LA making a TV show doing interventions on neo-nazis and this is before I this is before that conversation on social media this is four years earlier so this what's funny is when he said you're a f he goes oh F he so I'm not a he but me and that man had stayed in like because I stayed there for about two months making this TV show and used to go to these gatherings all the time where this man also went and so we swapped phone numbers and for you know nine years me and him stayed in touch just once a year phone calls hey what's going on how's your recovery blah blah blah blah blah 2014 guys now jumping back and forth but 2014 the worst five years of My Life Starts Now I've been in neonnazi been in prison grew up in poverty nothing compared to 2014 to 2019 just um I'm still coaching hockey I'm winning national championships I'm becoming recognized as this civil rights leader I'm traveling all over the world doing interventions on neonazis on things you would think are great but my oldest son dies in a car accident then my mom dies of a fent all over those then the best man in my wedding kills himself then his and these are my cousins now these guys my cousin was my best man in my wedding not the one that got me in the neonazis but just a cousin that I was very very close with he was like my brother his older brother my other cousin he kills himself coworker mine uh at my this organization I founded a bunch of organizations one called life after hate which was about doing interventions on white supremacist a cooworker of mine does some nefarious stuff with some stuff and and it really hurt me and her our business really bad like really really hurt I don't want to say too much just cuz I don't want to you know the guy is the man and he makes mistakes and we all do but it was really bad at the time find out that me and my wife aren't going to work out anymore that was really bad and um we're getting a divorce and it's this like fiveyear span of where just I always felt like the other shoe was going to drop all the time um and so why we're getting a divorce guys I tell you the story take it what you want 2019 I'm I'm driving I I find out Jewish you know so I'm in the middle of this divorce and I was like I'm just going to date Jewish girls because I don't want to I'm GNA think about following this path now so I find the one Jewish girl in all of D way and Iowa there's not many I found the one and we started dating and uh during my divorce in the middle of my divorce I'm dating this girl amazing girl but anyway I'm leaving her house one day I'm not allowed back in my house because of the divorce and it's gotten really ugly and really fast no violence just a lot of arguing you know there's a lot of old fairs that were coming up that were not really good on both sides I mean really really bad just not a good situation we the Roses types typ stuff so anyway I'm I'm I'm sad I'm depressed I I lost my hockey job uh the divorce is really and then I started relapsing again so I'm leaving this girl's house and I'm driving back to my buddy's house and as I'm driving over everything just I'm I don't know if it was a panic attack I don't know what it was all I know is I couldn't drive any anymore I had this cry that was stuck in my throat like I just wanted to scream and cry and it was stuck right here and I couldn't get it out I was and I just wanted to cry so bad and I was my eyes were crying and I couldn't see the road CU my I was so blurry eyed and teary eyed and I so I just pulled over because I couldn't go another foot without crashing my car and I just pulled over and I started screaming up to Hashem God I was just like I was like God kill me please I was like I don't want to kill myself my two cousins had just killed themselves you know I knew the pain of that and um it's funny in that moment I also forgave them because I was really angry at them but I remember thinking if this is the pain that they felt before they killed themselves I get it I get it so I'm screaming up to God I said please kill me I don't want to kill myself but please let a Mac Truck hit me please let a telephone pull fall on my car please just take knock me out of my misery please I can't take this pain no more and as I'm screaming up to God and I'm crying that girl calls me the Jewish girl she calls me and um I picked up my phone while I was screaming crying and I was like what and she's screaming crying and she says get back to my house my sister just killed herself please get back to my house and you could take this forever want you want guys I hung up I said okay and I hung up the phone and when I hung up the phone this voice came to me this voice and it said get to California I have work for you it's all it said and when it said get to California it me called that man the one who called me he in a meeting cuz me and him had stayed in touch and he kept saying I can help you it's all you'd always say me say Frank I can help you you have gifts inside of you but you have this disease you have this disease of of of alcoholism really bad and I can help men like you and so I called him and um said hey I'm coming out to LA and and and you're going to be my ra my Rabbi my recovering Rabbi my sponsor is what we call it but so you're going to be my recovering Rabbi like I'm coming out there I have to I can't control this anymore and he said come on out and that was 2019 so in that decision when I made that decision also was I was like I'm going to start following the faith I'm going to start following this path you know I don't hard for me to sometimes say religion I think it's more of just a path and a faith uh and a you know whatever and I said I'm gonna I'm gonna go look into this and at the same time kabad out of La calls me and says hey we want you to do a 30 kabad house tour for us just to come speak about your story and which I'm like I'm coming La way like this is crazy so I had to go to Turkey for some crazy work which I won't get into that but I I actually had to fly to Turkey on December 19th and um that was December 16th is my sober date because I knew how to go to Turkey and then I had to come out and speak for habad and um and this man was going to become my sponsor and I made the decision to come out here and then get really serious about about practice iing and so um you know I'm not any denomination I it's wrong word um I do a lot with everybody I do a lot with my conservative Jewish friends I do a lot with my reformed Jewish friends my Tempo closest to me is reformed Jewish temple but uh I do a lot with the habat around whenever I can um and uh anyway I just so I'll tell you the story um do what you want with it in 2020 I I've make this commitment I'm going to follow this and and I'm going to start being kosher I'm going to start keeping a Shabbat in my life and um right when that all happens the government calls me and says hey do you know because there was a lot going on with policing at the time they said we heard that you know a lot of people that were neo-nazis that became cops and I was like oh yeah there's a bunch of us a lot of our members either got into the military or became cops that's was the goal as a Neo-Nazi was if you didn't get the swas type to stuff was to keep it cool keep it lowkey and then become cops I was like there's a bunch of us so then the government calls me in and asked me to testify in front of Congress and I went I testified in front of Congress and said this is in 2020 during the pandemic and and uh and and I had the faith and the the strength to go you know what I'm going to go do this and so I went and I testified in front of Congress about a bunch of bunch of Neo-Nazi cops and um they started threatening my life so during the pandemic I had to go live on a boat and when I lived on a boat all by myself is when I just got really serious about my Judaism because I had nothing but time to do is read and watch videos uh Rabbi Freedman and you know Manis Freeman and and uh why Rabbi why why and his brother and I just was you know just started getting all this information and and started going to tourist studies and I reached out to the local synagogue and said hey I'm me I live on a boat I really can't make it to any of the the services or anything I said but I'd like to do whatever I can and I had the greatest line which was actually given to me by one of my Israeli friends when I first told my Israeli friend I said yeah I'm asking Azie she goes no you're more like ask a Nazi don't don't get that confused wow so I wrote The Synagogue told them that line and they got right back to me and they said here's all of our services that are online was during the pandemic they said here's all our services online here's one our tourist stud is just come on in just start coming and I just started going and I started going very consistently and um what was crazy is only the rabbi knew my story nobody else at the tour studies or any of the services or Shabbat service no one knew my my story and I just showed up and people liked me you know because it was all online and and then finally the rabbi was like let's tell her let's I think it was on what was it it was one of the holidays I forget which one but she said you know what it's time to tell everybody and so I went and I spoke in front of our whole congregation and said I know you all seen me on everything for the last two years but here's who I really am so do you think as as fighting anti-Semitism is is one of the methodologies what worked with you as you're seeing what's going on knowing your background 30 years ago and you're seeing what's happening how how are you experiencing it well I'm I mean no I'm experiencing a lot I mean I'm I get a lot of hate I get people at all the time like if you're such a you know civil rights peace activists why are you not screaming for a ceasefire I mean I hear that all the time and then I you know I go well give us back our people and there's there'll be a ceasefire you know like give us back our peoples then we could talk um you know my personal beliefs do I've never been to Israel never been to Israel but I could tell you that I'm against terrorism in all of its forms in every we got to get you we got to get you this I want to be we want to be with you the first time you walk up to the cotel the first time you go up to that wall well and there's the thing I'm obsessed with King David when I was hiding out on a boat for two years that's who gave me my I HD out on a boat for two years because of the police threatening to kill me and all I kept reading was about how King David lived in the caves and hid in the caves and I was like you know what if he can do it I can do it not that I am a King David but I have that in me and if I follow this I could be you know do the right thing and then I'm okay I mean guys I literally was hiding out in the cave it just happen to be on Bo you know and that's who drove that's one of my biggest drivers was like if King David could do what I can do it Frank let me just ask you one more question um obviously your story is an incredible story of redemption what what would you tell someone who doesn't want to be defined by their biggest mistake you know you said that you came to a certain point where you didn't want to be known as Frank the this and you were able to Pivot and change how you viewed yourself and not allow other people to Define you so what would you tell people because people all the time they make a mistake they do something wrong and they Define themselves by that mistake I am the alcoholic I am the drug addict I am the you know the whatever the case might be H how do you help people rise above that how do you tell people that just as yours the story of redemption everyone has that story inside of them I yeah I tell a lot of people that just like when I coached hockey I mean I coached youth hockey for years um I talk about the most important part is look not that don't count how many times you fall down I count how many times you get back up I mean don't lay on the ice and fake hurt or lay in the lay on the ice and be dramatic just get up get up and start taking the next right steps and it's all and I always tell people this I thought that everyone listens to me but it's that it's all about service to others you know in the network that I work I mean I work with former jihadists I work with former cult members I work with former neo-nazis I work there's a whole big thing about us called AB against violent extremism there's a whole big networks of us all around the world and it's all about us getting back up and being of service to others you know one of the great one of the great things I get to do in my life today is after I do my blessings and my Rapp and like to filling is like get to go I take a what I call my God Walk I do it an hour and a half I happen to be blessed now that I live next to a beach I'm a welfare kid from Philly like God Is So bless me in the life I get to live today that I take an hour and a half walk on the beach every day and I do that to say the words to myself stay St a y stop thinking about yourself just think about others and if I could just think about others and how I could be of service to others I stop thinking about my past mistakes or the greatest thing is especially in the rooms of recovery is that we are the original me too movement I know you guys remember might have heard about the me too movement with the women and I I stand by it's cool I'm not knocking you but we're the original me too movement because when new people come into those rooms of recovery and they go man I just got caught drinking and driving my kids in my car the rest of the world hates them you know what we say me too man me too come sit come talk what a story Frank what an unbelievable story and we know that you know Edward Norton has was based on your life story I understand there's other other efforts that you're involved in right now to maybe uh put out a film based on your story because there's a lot to learn from it and how you've taken responsibility how you've transformed yourself for a person who never ever went to high school you certainly are eloquent and articulate and are able to invoke a lot of wisdom and it's a real real inspiration and it's really fantastic and and I know that I'm touched I hope all of us can we can turn all the anti-semites around and we can redeem everybody and they could find their best self and their inner self and and thank you for spending so much time with us telling your story to us and and sharing that inspiration with us and we wish you all the best in your continued journey and activism to make a difference and be a light in this world thank you guys thank you so I'm an honor to be here with you all thank you thank you