#13: Behind the Bima - Special Guest: Dr. Jerome Groopman

We're live. And we are live. It is 9:00 p.m. on Wednesday night. My name is Rabbi Yossi from Goberg. I'm the host of Behind the Bima together with our panelists Rabbi Philip Moskowitz, Rabbi Josh Brody, and we are here to take you behind the Bima. Behind the Bima. Thank you so much for being with us again tonight. We got another great program. It's hard to believe, fellas, this is episode 13. Episode 13, we've been doing this. Wow. What began as coffee talk to be able to just hopefully see some people and be seen by people has morphed into a podcast that's climbing the charts and that we have some really distinguished guests. Tonight's guest is is prominent, esteemed, and we're really excited to be able to talk Looking forward to it. Amazing. We're still having fun doing it. That's the most important part. We're still having a blast, and it's hard to believe there are actually still people who are listening. And as long as they're listening, maybe even after they stop listening, we're going to keep doing it because we're having a blast. So, why don't we jump right into it and thank first of all our sponsor for tonight, our dear friend Sal Abady, Sal Abadi. Sal is a second-time sponsor, so our second second-time sponsor. Though we do have a long list of other people, we snuck Sal in because of his loyalty to us. Sal, on behalf of his incredible company called Oracle, Oracle Senior Home Care. So, if you know anyone, a family member, a neighbor, someone in need of home health care, certified nursing assistant, home health aide to assist you, they specialize in caring for patients with dementia, Alzheimer's. They provide care in a home, in a hospital, in all kinds of facilities. Long-term insurance is accepted, but here's the amazing thing. Sal Abady will literally hold the family's hand. He'll be there, he'll take care. He is not just a job, this is a calling. He's really there for the family. And mention behind the Bema I hope you don't need these services. He hopes you don't need these services, but mention behind the Bema first 4 hours of service free. That's a big value. First 4 hours of service free. Mention behind the Bema, you can get a hold of Sal 561 2127911. Uh so, I hope Sal's okay that I gave out his cell phone, but 561 2127911. Our dear friend Sal Abady Sal Abady. Sal, thank you so much for your sponsorship tonight and your sponsorship always. So, I want to jump into uh something exciting I got in the mail yesterday. Um Ezra Diamond wonderful young member of our community just celebrated his Bar Mitzvah. Touch and go. Was it going to be outside their home? Was it going to be in the shul? Was it going to be outdoors? Indoors? How would it work out? Last minute was the first shul I was the shul was back open. Ezra, all that preparation, all that hard work uh of uh preparing the laining paid off. Did it indoors. It was beautiful. It was really amazing. So, you have and I gave him a little gift because we think it's important even during coronavirus for people who feel invisible. Unlike Rabbi Moscowitz, we think it's important people deserve to celebrate and get gifts. So, I sent him a little gift and we got Atara and Kalev.com It's actually uh what is it again? Is that right? Rabbi Goldberg Atara and Kalev.com. Back to Groupman. We're going to jump right in. Dr. Groupman, thank you so much for being with us tonight. It's a pleasure. It's such a great honor. So many times that we've tried to uh welcome you to our community and never worked out. And so, with the gift of technology, we're able to host you virtually and that is such a bracha, such a blessing and opportunity. Let me introduce you to my colleagues and friends Rabbi Philip Moscowitz who I believe you knew his late father. He'll he'll mention that in a moment. And Rabbi Josh Brody as well. And we're all honored to welcome you to our program behind the Bema tonight. Thank you for being It's great to see you. So, first of all, Dr. Groupman, hosting you is is an honor not only because of of course your um incredible contributions in the field of medicine and and in literature and and commentary of what's going on in the world. You've really inspired so many with your best-selling books and your countless articles and of course most of all with your very loving care that you provide as a physician. But for me personally, this is a great privilege and pleasure because of course we are we are family indirectly through my wife, but I consider ourselves family. It's I feel bonded in that way. Yes. Your father-in-law is very close, Rabbi Brookstein and his lovely wife and now you are your wife. So there you are. Absolutely and they often talk about you and quote you and I want to just let's see if we can screen share for one moment. We'll take a brief moment even before we begin. There we go. If you see that picture, I believe that captures whoops that that captures the relationship. Can you see that Dr. Groupman? Yes, I do. There's my great-grandmother. There it is. This is a famous picture from Bushtyno, your eineklach. We are the the children of the Pishtan Rebbe, a great distinction. And you my wife Yocheved and you are third cousins evidenced by this by this picture. In the middle are the matriarch and patriarch of the family, Moshe Brookstein and his wife. And here Dr. Groupman are your great-grandparents and just above Moshe Brookstein are Yocheved's great-grandparents and also another great-grandmother of hers. The other great-grandfather was was working, was not in Bushtyno for the family reunion. And there in the right upper corner is Yocheved's grandmother which Yocheved looks a little bit like. Really, I see some resemblance from my own children. So this picture is firmly establishes the relationship between Yocheved between the Brooksteins and Dr. Groupman between you. So it's a great privilege, a great honor to have you on our program. That's actually that picture is in my office in my laboratory. Wow, that's fantastic. It's really an amazing thing. I think it's only because of your great-grandparents who lived in America but had gone back to visit that they actually have that picture because everyone was really wiped out in the war. Exactly. Everyone else was deported in '44, and then my great-grandmother and grandmother and great-grandfather Alik Sholom brought them uh the survivors over uh after the war. Uh and I actually learned from uh Eliezer Broxin that my grandfather Alik Sholom had access to penicillin and saved the life of his mother. After the war, because she had pneumonia, and it was impossible to get the antibiotic, and he was able to get it and get it to the DP camp in Germany. That's amazing. So, you have a family legacy of medicine, treatment of others, and and and of care. So, for those of our listeners, I don't think there's anyone who doesn't know who you are, Dr. Groopman, but let me just remind them nonetheless. Dr. Groopman is a uh frequent contributor, a writer for the New Yorker, chair of medicine at Harvard Medical School, chief of experimental medicine at Beth Israel uh Medical Center, author of five best-selling books, including How Doctors Think, Anatomy of Hope, Second Opinions, and of and of others. And um you've made an enormous contribution in your field and beyond, and and you're a perfect person for us to speak to about so many things. And while we're tempted to jump in and ask you your opinion about coronavirus, and maybe comment on the uh spike we seem to be experiencing here in Florida, in South Florida in particular, maybe we'll we'll come back to that, because people don't always don't necessarily want to hear about coronavirus. So, instead, maybe we'll just jump in with a with a different question. Which is how does your Judaism inform your your humanism, your practice of medicine? All of your writings, all of your contributions, your books, everything that you've done, where where does your Judaism, your Jewish ideals, your Jewish values, your Jewish observance contribute to it? I I think there's a very strong tradition in Judaism, embodied particularly in the Rambam, to combine appreciation and understanding of science uh as a gift from Hashem, uh wisdom, you know, we say Hakmah, Binah, Da'at, Sekhel, you know, wisdom, knowledge, discernment, all of those are involved in gaining scientific information. Uh and at the same time, there's a sense of humility. Uh that we don't know everything in the world, that there are things beyond our understanding, and that we have to have a sense of hope and faith, which are also essential, I think, in Judaism. To have a sense of forces and and powers that are beyond that of man. Um so, I think those two things are very strong, and often people believe there's a conflict between science and religion, or science and faith. And I think we look at uh really giants in our tradition, like the Rambam, who saw no conflict between that. And actually, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, who was trained as an engineer uh in Europe uh before the war, and then worked at the Brooklyn Navy Yards as an engineer, um also saw no conflict between science and faith. So, I think those two things are very powerful in terms of what drives me as a researcher and as a doctor. Interesting. Tonight's the Lubavitcher Rebbe's yahrzeit, actually. So, so appropriate that that he was mentioned. Now, I understand that that you were close to the Bostoner Rebbe in Boston. Yes, uh very much so, and um uh helped him with patients who came up to Boston for second opinions. Um uh and often, actually, uh more from a medical point of view, uh complex halachic issues. Uh uh a pregnant woman, I remember, from uh uh the community in Yerushalayim, who had a very severe uh infection with a virus that's destructive to a fetus. And there was a big machloket about um uh the child and the birth and so on. So, I helped inform from a scientific point of view and of course the halachic decisions were left to the rabbonim. Interesting. Rabbi Moscowitz? Yes. And of course the Boston Rebbe was instrumental with Refuah International, right? An organization that that helped people from around the world who came for medical treatment in Boston. Very much. Refuah, which is still very, very active and and vibrant in the community here. So, so you deal with First of all, it's a it's a real honor to have you here and and growing up in Boston, my father being a physician in the in the community, um obviously your name was very familiar to me and and my father knew shared a mutual acquaintance, Dr. Michael Asband. Um and Dr. Asband, who we were very close with, he uh he used to have a kiddush cup that he used every Shabbos and it was a kiddush cup that was given to him by a patient of his who was an oncologist who ultimately passed away and that was his way of remembering the patient. And I remember my mother and him always having this debate about how do you maintain positivity when you're uh an oncologist, when you're dealing with cancer patients all day long? And I know that's something you talk about and you write about. Um what's your perspective on that? You're dealing with the sickest of patients, you're doing experimental treatments. How how do you maintain your positivity, your optimism, that faith even when seeing the darkest moments for for people come through your doors? Well, I think there are the three things. Uh one is that sometimes the tumor doesn't read the textbook. Uh there was a uh a a professor of biology at Harvard named Stephen Jay Gould who wrote uh um uh an essay called The Median Is Not the Message. And he actually became like a baal teshuva towards the end of his life. He he developed cancer and doctors told him he was going to die in 6 months. He lived 11 years and he lived very high quality of life. And he realizes a biologist that there's a distribution in every biological system as he saw it and people are to him biological systems where you can't predict with certainty the outcome. So there's always uncertainty. So that's one way to maintain true hope from a scientific point of view. The other is thankfully we make progress. You can't predict progress, but there is progress. You look at diseases like testicular cancer that were uniformly fatal and then people like Lance Armstrong or Jimmy Carter who had melanoma. Or Philip Moskowitz. I had five years ago. So Yes. testicular cancer five years ago. You did. Yeah, and people who who ordinarily, you know, and then there were drugs like cisplatin came and other drugs and and they were cured and I saw the first patients with the treatment and it was a mess. It was a miracle to see something like this. Or Jimmy Carter with with melanoma the way Lance Armstrong had brain metastasis and and Carter had brain metastasis for melanoma. This would be thought of as hopeless. And now it can be cured. So science, you can't predict it, but it does change. It makes miracles. And the other I think is um when we think about the Mishaberach prayer it's refuat nefesh refuat haguf. Now the question is why does nefesh precede guf? And some people say, well, you need the nefesh to help the guf and so on. But the truth is that ultimately the guf cannot be cured for any of us cuz we're all mortal. But I do believe that we always have hope for the nefesh that to the very last moment there is a reason to live. There's a reason to hope. There's a reason to endure because there are things with our nefesh that we can reconcile that we can improve, that we can find peace and fullness to be shalom in that way. And so, for people whom I'm caring for, I always try for cure and improvement and to stay ahead of the cancer. But if there does come a time when the goof cannot be cured and there is nothing immediate there's always the nefesh to address. You tell a story in one of your books about a woman who you had run out of medical options and you apologized to her. She understood at least implied in your voice and she said you do still have something to give, the medicine of friendship and love and I've quoted that and had a big impact on me. It supports the Talmudic statement that every person who visits a sick person takes away a part of their illness, but that too has medicinal value, right? The friendship, the love? Absolutely. So, so this was a story I actually the wife of a minister I I was caring for and I said, you know, I have nothing more to give you. And she said, no, you're wrong. You have the medicine of friendship. You have the medicine of affection. And I think, you know, when we think about it being as you said, being present, being there as hard as it can be sometimes because it is difficult. It is it is frightening for people who are healthy and so on to be with someone who can be so sick, but it's incumbent upon us and and I think that this is one of the great sources in our tradition that that pushes us for bikur cholim. You know, and it's through Abraham Avinu from the very earliest Jew basically to understand that this is a part of our tradition and a part of really what makes kedusha. That's an amazing answer and it's really inspiring for anyone who's a caring thoughtful human being, not only people in medical field. I want to switch gears a little bit and and ask you a question that indirectly addresses coronavirus, the pandemic. It's a little bigger than that. And one one of the themes of of your books, one of the contributions of your scholarship, is about empowering patients and the limitations on doctors' expertise. And I guess we're feeling that very acutely right now because every expert seems to be stripped of their expertise. What they said yesterday is true, tomorrow is not true. They change the truth every day. It adapts, it conforms. It has humbled or should humble all of us. And again, the experts seem like they're not experts. The amateurs, I don't think have more of an expertise, but sometimes can feel like they do. So, how does this whole pandemic and how does the lack of expertise and the fact that every day, you know, surface it can transmit on surface, no it can't. Asymptomatic children are the biggest carriers, no they're not. Temperature is an indicator, no. Two-thirds of people who have temp who didn't have temperature when they had Every day it's changing and therefore we're left throwing up our hands at such uncertainty, doubt, not understanding. And how does what's happening now fit into your your theory and and your contribution in this area? Well, I think you you we talked a little before First of all, about being a knob, that you really have to be humble in terms of um uh thinking about things and realizing that there's a high level of uncertainty, particularly with regard to an evolving disease. So, unfortunately, with the understandable sort of pressure to get out information, people are putting out information prematurely. Um and sometimes it comes from people who are called experts. Sometimes it comes from some of the most esteemed journals, like the New England Journal and The Lancet, uh which then find out that they've been hoodwinked by prominent researchers who got data that was really uh flawed and therefore that undermines the credibility of what's published. And then there's unfortunately now websites where information is presented without it being rigorously reviewed and statistically analyzed and so on. Uh and I think the media also plays to this because it it does first of all everyone wants a headline and a exciting headline. And it's also become politicized both on the right and on the left. So, uh to me science doesn't care whether you like President Trump or you don't like President Trump. It's irrelevant. It should be what is M S, you know, what is M S basically. And that takes time to figure out, and it's better to do things in a careful rigorous way. My own uh uh sort of approach is really a "pikuach nefesh" approach. And that is that this is a serious virus. There is no doubt about it. I don't know if you know from your son and from your father-in-law that we had two relatives who were extremely ill with this. Both of them "Hashem" made it through. One was almost dead, the other one was almost on a ventilator. Both of them are very healthy people. They don't have underlying conditions, they're not morbidly obese, they don't you know nothing like that. So, this can hit anyone. You look at kids now with these reports of this inflammatory syndrome, Kawasaki's. So, we have to know what we don't know. And my own feeling is that we really do need to um uh pay serious attention to this and not be cavalier about it. So, do I accept everything that's published? Absolutely not. Do I dismiss things because they come from the right or the left? No, I have an objective open mind. On the other hand, from a public health point of view, you can see what's happening by prematurely opening. I mean, it's it's it and it's not a question of more testing. You don't put people in the hospital in Texas in the ICUs or in Florida in Miami, which is now almost to the point of saturation, because you tested more people. They're getting sick. And in fact, it they they're younger people, because they're the ones who were partying at the beach and spring, you know, break and so on. So, my own feeling is we don't know a lot of things, but I I really believe that from a pikuach nefesh point of view, because this does kill people, and we have no immunity against this. We haven't seen this virus before. It's not influenza. It's not other coronaviruses. We need to be uh extra cautious, and that's how I am with my patients. I want them to live. And I'd rather be extra cautious and then later tack back than to be uh glib or cavalier and then see them get very sick and God forbid die. But do do you think the change of of the expertise or the change of the experts' opinions is going to uh reinforce or promote cynicism and skepticism from patients that maybe they don't really know more? Yes, I think that the undermining of expertise is a big problem throughout. And and the scientific uh uh uh establishment has been undermined, partly its own fault, partly hubris, in that a lot of people want to be first. Okay? So, that it's a big yichus thing. I want to be first. I want to get out there. I want to show I'm the big guy. And they put out information without being careful. The two papers that got withdrawn from the New England Journal and from uh Lancet came from Harvard. So, you can't get more than that in the medical establishment. Not just because I'm there, but you know, but it's and they were wrong. They were wrong. They shouldn't have been. And it's sloppy. So, you know, in every other way it's like you know, Moshe Rabbeinu you probably know in Israel with Abba Eban he said the ultimate of voters are you know, is the ego. And and so on and that you know, the ego that's driving this on the scientific establishment. So, that is they're undermining themselves. On the other hand, there is a very bad part of the political establishment that is undermining uh the science and saying there is no truth, there is no reality, there is that you know, that that that this is all nonsense. And that's wrong, too. Do you think in in let someone else ask a question in a moment, but have you seen through your career, do you think doctors have more humility or less humility than they used to? Uh that's a tough one. Um I think that they have a changing humility. So, um there was a joke when I was in my training about certain doctors they would say, "Not always right, but never in doubt." Okay? So, that was more about individual patients. Now, what we have is what is called system hubris. So, if you look at health care reform, which my wife and I wrote a lot of articles in the Wall Street Journal and other places criticizing a lot of the uh health reforms that were being proposed because they were sort of a blunt instrument and disregarded the individual patient. There was enormous hubris about how to change medicine in a way that they made it into a factory. And they they were very arrogant about it, and they completely dismissed the importance of the individual patient and the individual doctor. So, there was there was a shift in hubris. You had certain individual physicians who were very hubristic. And then you had these manager type physicians who were convinced that they were like CEOs of big corporations, and they knew everything about how to change the world. And it turned out to be a disaster. Did you get pushback from doctors from from your books that encourage patients to be more empowered and to challenge their doctors, get second opinions? We got um surprisingly most of the physicians were pretty positive because we admitted our own errors, and it was sort of like Asham Nubagadnu. But um we got a lot of pushback from the the system guys. There's a whole um mantra now of Toyota that the uh hospital should run like a Toyota car plant. And my wife and I wrote a um article in the New England Journal about what's called Taylorism. There I I don't know if you know this from a There was a uh a guy who said everyone should work like in a factory. His name was Taylor, and uh you should work at maximum efficiency and this and that, and you know. And this is what we wrote about, and that caused enormous blowback because we wrote that people aren't automobiles. Mhm. Or if they are, they're used cars. And each one is different. That's great. You you write a lot about the the patient perspective and and bridging the gap between patient and doctor. I'm curious your thoughts about telemedicine and how you think that's going to change medicine going forward. Um certainly that has an impact on the dynamic as it I'm on the patient side, you're on the physician side, and it's a lot less personal, right? You're not sitting there with a doctor, you're there's a certain um empathy that's communicated when you're in a room together with someone. Is that here to stay? Is that a good a change for us the patients? Is that a bad change for us the patients? How do you think that will impact the average person altogether? I think it's mixed. My wife is an endocrinologist and she said that the the positive is that she has much more freedom to spend as much time as she wants with her patients in telemedicine because she's not in the clinic with it telling her you have to see people every 10 12 minutes or whatever it is. She said that it only really works when people aren't very ill and when she knows who the person is. For people who have cancer or other very serious problems or people that she cares for who are very ill, you need to see them and so on. Telemedicine is only a stopgap. It's only a stopgap at this point in the midst of the COVID epidemic to keep people who are essentially not urgent away from coming into the hospital which is an epicenter of the virus right now. Um but it's a two-edged sword because many patients, as you know, are extremely unhappy about this idea that they come in and they have like a 12-minute visit of which 9 minutes are a checklist being asked nourish type questions on a general medical visit, you know, about you know, do you have rugs in your house and do you slip on them and do you have a bicuspid and all of this nourish type when you're coming in for a much more serious problem. So, I think it works both ways. I think the the human contact which was initially blunted by the computer and the electronic record. Like I went to see I have hearing problems. I went to see my ear, nose, and throat guy. He didn't look at me. Did not look at me. He spent the entire time looking at the computer screen. And you know, I'm a physician. I know him this and that, you know. And I thought to myself, you know, even though it wasn't that urgent, just the sense of having no eye contact, no face contact, it was very, very bad. I remember when my father was at Boston Medical Center and they were introducing computers into the into the the rooms. My father fought it tooth and nail cuz he was worried about that. He said, "You're going to lose the entire interaction between patient and doctor cuz the doctor's going to be looking at a screen the entire time." Absolutely. Your father was very prescient on that. So you've you've been kind to give us your time. I want to ask you one last question. Um you wrote an article a couple years ago called Can Brain Science Help Us Break Bad Habits? And there's nobody who's not struggling with bad habits. Right. So the the thesis of the article is that studies suggest relying on willpower is hopeless. The notion that you're going to will your way to lose that weight or exercise or stop screaming or losing your cool or become on time, it's not going to be willpower. You need strategies, you need science. So for our listeners, people want to break a habit, they want to change a habit. What's your advice? Right. So it's it's less my advice than discovering what works from a psychological point of view. And what it is is to change the context. First to understand what triggers the bad habit. Um uh uh and then to change the context. And the context means basically the environment. So that um uh uh people for example who are overeating and eating, you know, junk food, for example. Um, you know, if you're if you're bored and you move yourself into the kitchen and you're sitting in front of the uh, donuts, you're in trouble, right? Um, and so the question is what you really need to do is if you try to resist the donuts, it's not going to work. But if you find a way to divert your attention, whether it's read a book, engage in a conversation with someone, uh, um, or whatever it is, um, uh, that you change the context and you do it in incremental ways, that you're able to then detach from that kind of triggering. And um, it actually works. It seems like a simplistic solution, but it actually works for a lot of uh, people. And actually, you know, it's interesting that I um, you know, they the um, uh, I was when this article came out, I learn every other week with a with a guy who's uh, in New York. And he was using the uh, of uh, Joseph and Potiphar's wife. That the the the trigger of of temptation, which happens. And that the image in the in the Midrash is that he saw his father Yakov's face. And the context changed. Instead of seeing the wife of Potiphar, he sees Yakov's fa- you know, the his father. And that if there's a way for us to change the environment, so as not to be triggered to indulge in something which is potentially deleterious. Uh, and that's an extreme example, but that was the one that he brought up. Uh, it's a way that we can break habits which are potentially uh, negative. Um, and uh, you know, people at work, this is another example, they're bored at their office and they start eating or they start uh they're smoking or something like that. And there ways that you can change your environment, get off your uh seat, you move away from your computer screen, and you engage in something that's more productive and gratifying as a substitute. So, it's not just about tackling the particular habit, it's about the triggers in the environment around it. And if you think you're going to willpower will overcome the habit, you're going to lose once you're in that Absolutely. As strong as we think we are, we're not as strong as we are. Dr. Groopman, is it true that ABC Television once had a uh medical show that was based on you? Yes, it did. It was called Gideon's Crossing. It was radically changed. Um it was based on Measure of Our Days, which was the first book that I wrote, which is a very spiritual book. It has a lot of Yiddishkeit in it. It actually talks about our mishpucha from Hungary uh in the beginning. Um uh they did a lot of uh crazy things, which they do in Hollywood. Uh they killed my wife, so she was not alive at the time of this. And it it ran for two seasons, and it wasn't I guess uh sufficiently edgy. It didn't have enough uh whatever. And so, it's uh a var, you know, it was passed. Did they Did they uh Did you consult with them on the show on an ongoing basis? Uh I tried, uh but uh shall I say that most of the input uh was uh didn't get transferred from Boston to Los Angeles. Understood. Understood. That happens as often as well. Want to thank you for your time this evening. I know the hours are getting late. We really appreciate it. We're still looking forward to when you'll join us for a whole Shabbos in Boca Raton, and the mishpucha can have a reunion together. It will be really wonderful. But thank you for all that you do and the leadership that you show. You've inspired so many with your work, not only with your practice and your patience, but really in a much broader context, all the people who've been inspired, doctors and patients alike. So, thank you for all of that, and thank you for joining us tonight. Thank you, Rabbi. It's a pleasure, and I look forward to seeing you in Boca. Thank you. Thanks so much. you. Okay, boys. Okay. Wow. That's fascinating. Dr. Jerome Groopman, Dr. Jerry Groopman, Jerry as he's known by my father-in-law. He's a brilliant man, and he is a humble man, and uh there's so much more to talk about. With every one of our guests, you feel like we just scratched the surface, right? I mean, the big question for him is that notion of empowering the patient and challenging the authority. Does he believe that only in medicine? Does he believe that with police? Does he believe that in religion? Does he believe that in other arenas, too? Be fascinating to follow up with him another point. Next time. Next time. I would like to say we like the New England Journal of Medicine here on this show, though despite the fact that they've gotten some things wrong over the past few months. We do like it. We do like it. So, I want to come back to I was telling you about Ezra Diamond and the thank you note that he wrote, and it was a beautiful thank you note, handwritten, not just copied or out of the printer. I noticed the touch. Good job, Ezra. Also, he's got the logo, cuz every bar mitzvah boy today is a logo. They're a franchise. They're an enterprise. Dear Rabbi Lord of the world, thank you, blah blah blah blah blah. My family pray, blah blah blah. PS, this is why I'm sharing it, my best part. You ready? PS, I can't wait for the next behind the bima from Ezra. Wow. You like that? So, we've got we've got listeners of all ages. We've got got listeners. I told you guys this story that apparently a a previous episode I'd said how guys can go like years without seeing each other and then just jump right back into a friendship. So, a friend of mine in Israel who I went to Yeshiva with heard that, and he said, "You know what? I'm going to reach out. I haven't spoken to Phil in a long time." He texted me. We've been texting back and forth, catching up on life. So, you never know. You never know who you're going to reconnect with. Oh, it's so great. Let's make a l'chaim to that renewed friendship. L'chaim to the mishpacha, to Dr. Groupman, a l'chaim to please God here in Florida, let's see things turn around. Hope all those who are ill have a speedy and complete recovery. And let's hope we we continue in the right direction with everything. So, l'chaim l'chaim. L'chaim. I mean, I have to admit, I did get a little emotional there when he spoke about medical innovation and how far medicine has come and how certain cancers used to be deadly and now they're some of the most treatable. That was pretty powerful. I'll just admit personally for me that he that he referenced that. It's something I I do not take for granted and I'm very grateful for and think about all the time. We're all very grateful for and I'll tell you I was watching your face cuz I you're you're pretty private person and you know, it wasn't necessary to insert it and I was wondering and curious whether you were going to mention it. I'm glad you did because it made it so personal and so real. person, I I emailed the entire world when I got sick and and I'm very public about it. You know, the truth is I had a cancer that if I had gotten in 1960 or 1970, was basically guaranteed death. It was one of the deadliest cancers out there and because of medical innovation, specifically a doctor at the University of Indiana, who who I actually went out to see, they created a treatment and it's now one of the most curable cancers. And so, I'm very aware of that and I'm very aware of the miracle of modern medicine, of how far cancer research has come and that's why when when I do, you know, when I raise money for the Boston Marathon or or I do things to support cancer research, it's not just oh, Moskowitz wanted to run the Boston Marathon. I really Dr. Lawrence Einhorn is his name and I really believe in it. I really believe in it. If in 30 years, you could take one of the deadliest cancers and make it not just treatable, but one of the most treatable, so you know, please God over the next couple of years, whether it's breast cancer or other forms of cancer, will continue to innovate and continue to progress and and people shouldn't have to suffer. What a great point he made, right? You think that such an accomplished physician and researcher would be the one who says, "Look, the science is the science. Don't be hopeful or optimistic." And he was the opposite. He was saying, "We believe in hope, we believe in optimism, and we believe in progress." And that was a great example. And uh I will remind you at a certain meeting in our backyard that when you were first diagnosed, you were like, "I can get through this and nobody will notice. I can I can take off work a few months and lose my hair and disappear and nobody will ever find out." Took a little time for you to come around on that one. I'm definitely a more uh private person. Um but I do firmly believe that when we talk about calling in life, you know, people search their entire lives for a calling and sometimes something just falls at your doorstep and says, "You know what? This happened to you. You can either shy away from it or you can use it to make other people's lives better and to help other people." And again, you know, as a rabbi, because of my life circum- I get I get texts and emails and calls all the time from people, "I was just diagnosed, a family member was just diagnosed. I want your I want to talk it out with you. I want to open up to you. I want to hear your experiences." And if you know what? If God put me through that circumstance to be able to help other people, then um then I'm willing to go with it. It's an amazing amazing viewpoint. And I'll just say this, that not only are we all so grateful that you are, thank God, well and many several years out, but um but you celebrated a big milestone yesterday. Yesterday was Rabbi Mascowitz's birthday and he began his 40th year of life. He's the last year in his 30s. How does it feel to be in the last year? 40. You're in the 40th year of your life. I'm 39. We don't mention the word 40 here in this house quite yet. Um so, the truth is because someone else who lives in that house. Yeah, exactly. We won't mention that. You're not the only one living in that house. Oh God, I'm sleeping on the couch tonight. Um every year I dread my birthday. This year I woke up, I said, "You know what? I'm alive, I'm healthy, I have a roof over my head, I'm embracing my birthday, and I'm just grateful to Hashem." So, it was really a major turning point for me. I give credit to Linda Gordon in our office who yells at me every single year when I complain about my birthday and she says, "Stop bickering. You're alive. You have a beautiful family. You have so many blessings in your life. Get over it and embrace your birthday." Oh wait, I'm not sure she says stop bickering just for the Yeah, no, no. I I sanitize that for online. I am I actually made a big turning point in that in this year. I also I always love my birthday. I didn't mind it and I love being in my 30s. When I turned 40, I was pretty miserable. I really like being in my 30s for lots of reasons, not for now. And I was a little bit I was miserable when I turned 40 and and I'm now halfway through 40 You're closer to 50 now than 40. no, we're not. We're right halfway through 40. Six months into My birthday this year, my birthday this year, which was several months ago, I thought about the people in our lives who we've lost who, you know, never ever complain about a birthday. Marking another year of life and living and being here and being with your friends and family. I realized how ungrateful it seems and and it's cute and it's sticky and you enter these different age and units of life and 30s and your 40s and so on and so forth. But um but the people that we've lost, really people that are precious to us who had so much more to live and to give and to inspire, I think it cause all of us to pause for a moment and to um and to think about what really matters and never to complain about that again. So, it's a good segue actually to another topic. Our community experienced and and I and I frame it that way. Our community experienced but a real uh tragedy yesterday. One of our our beloved families Tammy and Paul Clark and family, their house burned down. Uh totally inexplicable. We don't know the reason why and and they're investigating but but we don't know the reason but their fire their house uh was on fire and and it burned literally to the ground. They were able to save several things. One of them is safe at our home and Maskit can talk more about that. They were able to get out some of their clothing and some things um but you know, we were there yesterday and and we saw it actually the firefighters, we saw them putting out the fire. It's very traumatic and there's a real sense of loss even though thank God I'm gazillion billion times over Glennon Gallish. Nobody was in the house, everybody was safe, but to look at your own house and to see it burn to the ground and the things that are in it, it's really really devastating. So, I just I want to bring up a couple things which are extraordinary from it. I'm sure you both have some some insights and and observations as well. Um one was they shared with me there were 120 firefighters and rescue people. In fact, while we were there yesterday, I looked around and I said to Rabbi Brody, I hope there's no other fire that breaks out in all of Boca, in all of Palm Beach County cuz it feels like every fire person 40 dozen fire trucks there. There were 40 trucks, in fact, ultimately that came. Um they all came out and it is extraordinarily hot in South Florida right now, tremendously hot, tremendously humid. Today, actually, um I looked and even though it registered in the high 90s, it felt like 108° outside. When you're a firefighter and you wear that uniform and you are climbing that ladder, you're holding the hose, you're coming close to a fire, um of these 120 firefighters, they were checking their vital signs afterwards. Many were dehydrated, um many had sunstroke and and I think that we just pause for a moment to say, of course we're grateful to Hashem, to the Ribono shel Olam, the Almighty, that everyone was safe and spared, um but we're grateful to these firefighters who put their lives on the line and you know, it's cute, what do you want to be when you grow up? I want to be a fireman. And how many fireman in the and the sound of the siren up the ladder yesterday. Oh, yeah, yeah. Rabbi Brody had to hold me back from climbing the ladder and grabbing the hose. I was like, I'm in. I'm in. But no, these firefighters were were really really amazing. But as amazing the firefighters and they deserve such a respect and our and our our honor and our appreciation and our recognition, um I'm really really proud of our community because some of the firefighters commented to the Clarks, they said, you you do know that you have an extraordinary neighborhood. And the Clarks like, what what do you mean? You know, you put out the fire, what do you mean? They said, do you know how many of your neighbors came out and gave us water and offered to take care of us and thanked us? So, Tammy said, well, doesn't everyone do that when there's a fire and the fire truck comes and you've saved the day? So he said, "Do you know how many people drive right over our hose while we're putting out a fire? They drive right by. They don't offer us anything. They don't say thank you, and they drive over the running hose while putting out the fire." So big kudos to water coming out of the hose anymore. What is going to happen here is I will I saw on the chat when they put out on the chat when they put out on the chat, you know, firefighters need water. There was like a flurry of I got two bottles. I got some Gatorade. I have this. I People just literally mobilize, threw it at them, and I really it's it as you said, it's a point of pride for our community how we come together in this case. be proud. And and you know, Paul would want me to say Boston strong. I'll say Boca strong also. Both of them are strong. Um but it was the firefighters incredible. The clerks are incredible. Their strength and resiliency. And the community members. Do you know that last night when the fire finally uh subsided, was safely put out, and they they needed to board up, and they needed to try to salvage what was left, there were like 80 people from around our neighborhood who showed up and who did that. Uh people have reached out to us. I'll give him a shout out. Shlomi Lagacy. We called Shlomi. We said, "Shlomi, do you have any guys who can come over?" Shlomi said, "It's done. Taken care of." And he brought his guys over. They were boarding up. It was real kiddush Hashem. Really nice. just see him throwing the water up the ladder? Yeah, he was. The guys throwing it on the ladder. He was. He was very excited there was a news truck, and and I'm like, "Shlomi, you're not wearing a mask. Take five steps back from me. We don't need any more. We don't need any uh you know, just take a couple steps away." But he's always right there. In fact, when we told Shlomi, you know, there's a safe of Torah inside, he started to like make a charge and a beeline. I'm like, "Shlomi, there There's There's police here. They're going to shoot you. You're running into a fire." Like a ladder problem. I was in army. I had no problem. I go get it." I'm like, "Stop. Stop." And in the end we rescued the Torah, which we'll talk about in a moment. But there were 80 members of the community there helping out last night. And and all three of us, people in the community have reached out, and they've offered everything under the sun in a really extraordinary ways that have brought tears to my eyes. People that don't even know them, people who aren't close friends with them, people who different parts of the community didn't matter. When you hear tragedy, when you hear something like this, this is what it means to be part of a community. We sent out an email with a meal train for people to make meals for a couple weeks and before the email went out because the link had gotten out already, the meal train was already full. People stepped up with resources, they rescued a bunch of clothing from the house today and it was already in all the neighbors washing machines being washed. Somebody reached out to me and I thought this was so thoughtful and sensitive and I shared just to inspire others that said, you know, how many kids do they have? And I said they have four kids. He said, I want to give X amount of money per kid because everyone's going to help with the parents to be able to replenish some of the things, but the kids should have the opportunity to buy what they want and what they need, what they feel they lost. And give a very, very generous sum so the kids can each have an Amazon card, go on Amazon, order what you want. And that was such a thoughtful angle realizing what many others would do and wanting to do something else himself and he wants to stay anonymous but deserves a lot of credit as do so many others. So it was really interesting. So tell us about the safer Torah, Rabbi. Yeah, it's a it's a miracle Torah, nothing short of it. You were there, they took the safer Torah out. The whole house is is was literally burnt to a ground to the crisp, water flowing all over the house to put out the fire and out walks this safer Torah and I know when Paul was walking with it, Shlomi posted video online, it was very emotional and he texted me, he said, you know, can I leave it in your house? I said, of course, put the Torah in my house and the Torah reeked, it smelled really, really bad, but other than the smell, it is impeccable. You not a drop of water, not a burnt piece anywhere on the Torah. In fact, I had a safer I had a sofer come over and just look at the Torah. A sofer who was visiting the community. I said, can you do you mind just popping over mask, socially distanced? I said, can you just look at the Torah and I want you to see if it was impacted at all. He said, Rabbi Moskowitz, in a million years I never would have known this Torah was just in the fire if not for the smell." And we had someone whose whose brother-in-law whose brother is in the Woodmere Volunteer Fire Department. So, he texts him. He said, "Do you see this ever?" And the he said, "Un- unimaginably." He said, "I see this all the time. We go to fires, the house is burned down, and out will walk a safer Torah." He says, "I can't explain it. I don't know why, but I see this all the time, and it really is a miracle Torah." Baruch Hashem, the Torah is fine. It's sitting in the shul airing out a little bit now. Was it kept in in like some sort of closet or No, it's it's in it's in its uh Oh, I don't know how it was in the house, but I don't think it was in anything special. It wasn't in a safe or anything like that. No. I'll tell you I I share the same excitement and and the same miracle and and the Torah and the treasure and the power of that image of the Torah making it. I this and this is leshitosi, this is my opinion on all these things. I hesitate to over-celebrate that because in the end they lost their house and everything in it. So, yes, we're so grateful that the holiest object on earth, a safer Torah, a human being is the holiest object and and they were spared first of all, but a safer Torah, we're grateful that it made it. But I think there's a balance between acknowledging that and being grateful for that, but not over-dramatizing it um in a sensational way, which takes away the fact that their house burned to the ground and they lost it. A lot. if you were there with them yesterday, you saw that anytime the firefighters brought something out, I was there when they brought out her Shabbos candlesticks. I was there when they brought out Also unbelievable, I texted you guys a picture of it. Their their wedding picture. Right. Completely untouched. It was unbelievable. A little mud in one corner that we wiped off. Otherwise, completely unscathed. And yeah, their house burned down, but any little remnants of their house, anything they could hold on to was very, very emotional to them every single time they brought it out. And it doesn't make it easier, their house is still burned down, but it it definitely gave them a little bit of a nachama yesterday. Does it make you think like you should They like a bag ready to go? Like if you're home and something's happening, I got to grab this bag cuz it's got my good my stuff. tell you. Let me Let me frame it a little bit differently cuz I think this is a question probably everyone who saw this fire, the smoke, and you know, even my son came home yesterday and he was like, "Was there a fire?" He was all this smoke. So, everyone's aware of it and I think one of the questions that you think to yourself, and I want to pose it to both of you, is you smell something, fire department on its way, they say get out of the house, you have a moment to grab something. What are you grabbing? Look around your house. I'm not talking people. People are out, they're safe. Not people, talking things. Possessions. What in your house are you grabbing as you're running out? What to you is irreplaceable? What is the most meaningful? What is the thing that you want to save? I won't say at all costs, but on your way out in that precious moment you're grabbing. So, for sure my wife is taking pictures, for sure. Right? She'll grab our wedding picture, some picture. I'm grabbing the passports. Mhm, passports, interesting. Why you don't consider passports replaceable? It's probably one of among the easiest replaceable. It's annoying, right? Yeah, I mean, the truth is I'm not This is a broader conversation. I'm not overly sentimental when it comes to this type of stuff. I believe anything can be replaced as long as everyone's healthy. Um so, for me, you you lose a picture, you gain a picture. I'm not uh I'm not overly sentimental about that, but for sure that's what my wife would grab. She would for sure grab a family picture. grab passport. I'd be on the flight to Israel and she'd be looking for uh she'd be looking She'd be looking at all the pictures. What about you, brother? What are you What are you grabbing that fancy headphones? What are you grabbing? This massive hard drive that I just backed my whole life on. Every CD, every picture. That's it. Other than this little hard drive, everything else is replaceable. I don't think I have anything. I mean, this is my wife is going to come and yell at me, but I don't think I got It's a good question. I've been thinking a lot about it today. If my tefillin were home, I think my tefillin I still have a saying tefillin from my bar mitzvah. I've never missed a day and they have a lot of meaning to me. But, my tfillin are shul, so that that wasn't the answer. I think about my sfarim right now. I'm sitting in my study, and it's interesting because if if God forbid my study burned down, I'd be I'd be really sad at the sense of the loss of all these sfarim, but now I have an external drive um a many terabyte hard drive that has hundreds of thousands of sfarim, probably all these in it. Although, some of these were given to me, they were inscribed. These gemaras that you underlined and that you, you know, at different stages of your learning career and life you were you were involved with, but you can't grab your whole library and run out of the house. So, yeah, what would it be? Albums? Right. Albums? Is there a family heirloom? Um I talk about often hanging on our wall is my wife's grandmother's Tehillim. Um it's very sentimental, very meaningful to our family. That Tehillim we'd grab that Tehillim and run out. It's a good question. It's It's an interesting thing to think about and to evaluate about our own lives, our own homes, and our own things. What matters the most? What would really matter in that moment? Yeah, I know. I heard a great drasha actually once from Rabbi Pinner when I was in Dallas would use that analogy for Yom Kippur. Said you go into Yom Kippur, you carry all this baggage with you, but only you get to decide what you take leaving Yom Kippur as well. And um it doesn't just work for our physical items, but you know, what would we what what would we take and what would we what bad habits would we drop drop away as well? That's interesting. So So Tammy told me that I was there, and she said that the the fire department the fire chief when he was running in to get things, he he told her afterwards, "I was looking for things 20 years or older. That's why I took out those pictures of their wedding." And she said, "Why?" He said, "Because anything less than 20 years old, you probably have it in an iCloud, it's in storage, it's on a device, it's on a chip, it's on a card, it's it's replaceable, it's reproducible. But, the things that are older than 20 years, it was a different world then. It was a totally different world then. We don't have access to it, and that was why that's what dictated his going in." So, we were standing there we we brainstormed today I think an interesting idea. I don't know what came of it. She was going to ask him whether they could take any of the wooden beams from the house that were left and and use it to build their sukkah every year. So that when they sat in their sukkah, the flimsy vulnerable sukkah that represents the home, they could look at it and say, "This was our old home." They could They could incorporate their old home into into the sukkah at least for a week of a year. I don't know what came of it, but it was an interesting idea. Isn't that what we do? Our sukkah is a sukkah of David and all fellows. Right? Our sukkah is remembrance of the of the ultimate home, of Hashem's home here on this earth. Right. That contrast between what exists digitally and what doesn't exist digitally I mean, we were talking about it earlier cuz I asked Rabbi Moscowitz if you had any pictures of your dad and Dr. Groopman. And what did you say? I said I I Googled my dad's name. It was It was actually a very sad moment. I'll be honest with you. Um I Googled my father's name and uh other than the annual memorial lecture that they have for him at Boston Medical Center, nothing came up. When my dad practiced medicine, he practiced it at a very high level, but there was no internet. You know, it wasn't as ubiquitous. It isn't You know, we talk about our our our our our social footprint. The the footprint we're going to leave on social media and on the internet. And when people Google our names after we're gone, what are they going to come up with? For people 20 years ago, there was no There was no digital footprint. There was no internet. They weren't Googled. Um they didn't have that type of footprint. So it was a little bit jarring for me to to Google my father's name. And um actually when I got home, I was so struck by that that uh my father and this Dr. Ausband, they actually co-wrote a book together. And I have a copy on my shelf. And I actually took the book out. And I realized I'd never really explained its significance to my children. But other than a picture, that's you know, in a megillah and in a watch and tefillin, that's really um like my father's medical legacy. You know, I don't have I don't have Google articles. I mean, he's quoted journals and manuscripts, but a lot of those are outdated. You really have to search hard for those. So it was really It was a striking contrast for me between me and you who live so much online and we're so cognizant of our digital footprint with 20 years ago, that didn't exist at all. And they they remember it differently. I think about that, you know, there's the good there's the bad side of that, like you're saying, right? So, there's a whole part of your father's life which is not captured in perpetuity cuz it's not digitized. But there's also a downside because we we pay a lot of shiva calls. We part of our our life. Um and you'll talk to people and they'll take out the letters their father wrote their mother during the war when they were this, when they were that. And the letters and the letters and the cards and the correspondence and the communications. Dr. Lamb, Rabbi Dr. Lamb from the Rock recently passed and all this correspondence and his library and his communications and it's rich with and and I I sometimes wonder like after 120, we're all we're all like are going to have our text messages. No, are they going to plow through our emails? I mean, when's the last time we wrote letters to one another? Significant correspondence on meaningful things. We we do it over email, but the emails just get lost because I don't know what everyone we don't have time now to to evaluate everybody's email system. What do you trash? What do you keep? How do you file it? But there are gabillions of emails and there's no way my descendants are going to sit and filter through those emails to find the ones that actually have meaning or the ones that are So, actually several years ago I used to print out meaningful emails and put them in a folder. And I thought the folder the folder has cards and has some letters. It does have it I'm going to print it. But you can't keep up with that. The flow of email is is so extreme. There's no way to keep up with that. keep some, right? You must keep some. I do. I do. There are people who still I mean, this is really age based, but there are people who still write a handwritten note, you know, after you've done a funeral or or a simcha and it's so deeply meaningful. I actually have a folder. I have two folders. I have the love notes and I have my hate notes. The people have written me hate notes. And you know, it's like the old they say Reb Simcha Bunim or whoever's name about the two the two notes you put a Jew should keep in their pockets. So, when I'm feeling high on myself, I read the hate notes. And when I'm feeling down on myself, I read the love notes. But those two folders are important to have. But it's very it's very rare these days that people will write that note. Uh people write an email. That's the way of the world and and there are countless emails that we have and you just wonder, is it going to get lost in cyberspace? Or is there some way it will ultimately get downloaded and captured and represent your legacy? And how many times do you go to a You go to a shiva and the person that's sitting shiva is just asks you, how do they get rid of everything that that the person just left? Like everything. The clothes, the boxes, shoes, and this that. Not the correspondence. If they have letters and correspondence, they cherish that they keep that. Not always. People Everything The children don't don't necessarily appreciate about it. I read David McCullough's book about John Adams. And if you read the letters that John and Abigail wrote back and forth to each other, they're they're the most magnificent things I've ever read read in my life. And I And that's when I wondered, I said, what are my kids going to read in Hey Hey Are, you know, LOL? Like, what are they going to read? And also, when we went to the Library of Congress, do you remember? So, the Library of Congress, they file away every tweet of the president of the United States because that's his primary mode of communication. show, by the most say I didn't say anything about it, but it was such a dramatic shift from letters, from documents, to all of a sudden they're they're compiling thousands and thousands and thousands of tweets and other forms of social media. So, you know, even the Library of Congress is adapting to this. what? I'll tell you actually it goes full circle to Dr. Jerome Groopman because Do you know that he introduced a course at Harvard Medical School about writing? He feels doctors are not trained to communicate, to write. And And even though their training ultimately is to heal, but it should also be in writing. Obviously, he has a an inclination, a proclivity for that. Um, but it does Our writing is so superficial because we're writing in We communicate and we correspond on text message and WhatsApp and email, and it's very simplistic. And like you described, those whether it was the romantic love notes or whether it was the high-level communications. I remember when reading Art Spiegel's book about Rabbi Moshe Sherer, zichrono livracha, of the Agudath Israel and the amazing contributions he made and and one almost couldn't have helped but think that Rabbi Sherer throughout his life was already helping them write that book because he kept the letters and he filed them, he organized them and they really are the history of the 20th century, late 20th century, some of the great efforts that he made. So, what will they have from us? It's our emails. Again, they're going to have a hard drive, Rabbi Brody, your heart. They're just going to have a hard drive, they're going to have archives and emails. Unfortunately, unfortunately, the reality is most things that are important to us are not going to be important to that next generation. That's just the reality. But the but there will be also emails that are meaningful. You don't think Rabbi Brody, you have emails from people telling you about how how much the March of the Living or Friday Night Live stream meant to I have them in a file on my computer. Like they're you? You save those emails separately? What? Do you save those emails separately? I save the letters, yeah. Oh, I I have them in a Yeah, they're in a file. So, what have you communicated to your children, if I get hit by a car, God forbid, there's a file on my desktop? You know, my father told me he's Everything first of all, everything on my desktop is so organized. It's not It's not like the the L drive or whatever drive we have at the U drive. You could find everything organized, but no one's going to go in. You don't You don't think that You don't think your children are going to find what you found important to also be important? You said the next generation it. I don't know why they would they would look at my computer. going to find it. You I disagree. My my I have I have my father's watch, I have his megillah, I know what was important to him and it's it's enormously sentimental to me. And there's nothing more significant. If you want access or connection with someone, it's with their words. It's with It's with the communication. Of course, it's with their things, but it's also Isn't the Rambam writes that? That's the notion. We We know God Baruch through science, through the Grand Canyon, the Swiss Alps, but we know most through his word, his diary, which is which is the Torah. Well, let me ask you a question, Rabbi Goldberg. Are you aware of that when you write When you write an article, like you just wrote an article, which I thought was was great, right? Are you aware that that in 20, 30, 40 years Where can they find it? rabbiafrumgoldberg.org When When You can find them at maskil.org on aish.com, by the way. Ah, blah, blah, blah. No, but are you aware that that like in 20, 30, 40, 50 years that those writings, those articles exist in for posterity? Yeah, no, I'm definitely I definitely I do. My I actually have notes here. I've been meaning to bring this up several episodes and we're going to have to push it off yet again, which is what's your big audacious goal? What's the thing that you want to do? You want to conquer? And just to give I guess a little bit of a forespice so when we'll have this conversation, I want I'm ready for many years I said I want I'm not writing a book. I'm ready to write a book. I want to make a contribution. I want something that will last. I like the popular audience articles I write. Whether people see them, don't see them, you know, it the shelf life of them is so short because the the so to say Jewish news cycle switches so quickly. Um, but I'm I'm ready. I'm ready to write that book. But I think about that about these articles, too. I mean, this is the legacy we're leaving our kids. When they read it, when they think about it, this is what we value. This is what we stand for. This is what we care about. This is what matters. This is what matters. So, um, I think I But I'm just saying most people are not writing books, you know? That's that's very few individuals writing books. Very few David Miller, David Miller wrote a book. Jackie Schipp wrote a book. Trajectory. I get I got it. I love Donna and Jackie, you know, they're right here. I didn't say Jackie. I meant No, but they wrote it on purpose. They wrote it as a spiritual legacy to their children. Right. Right. Right, but I'm saying it's not many it's It's good And by the way, I read David's book. It's phenomenal. No, it's great because it's the best way to do it if you can. Here's here's a little takeaway for us for tonight cuz we're actually at the end of our time. Time continues to pass quickly on Wednesday nights at 9:00 p.m. But the takeaway is maybe I've never seen anyone promote this, anyone. To be mindful as we're living digitally what we preserve. Like you said, the notion that I'm creating email folders, the ones that are meaningful and I would want my children to read and everything else. Right? So, cuz when our kids go go our emails, they'll be like, the egg salad at the shul stinks." or whatever the program, or "Can you get back to me? Can you meet Thursday at 3:00? Can you whatever?" And then in there will be the most beautiful correspondence, a meaningful correspondence, a correspondence where you were dreaming and aspiring and working to change the world. And they'll get lost in the egg salad and the meetings and the countless uh conference calls and the whatever. So, maybe we should all be doing a much better job. Maybe there should be a system of of of setting aside the things for posterity that we would want. Whether it's on a cloud or whether it's on an actual device. I'm going to invent an app. I hope nobody's listening and takes this. I'm going to invent an app, which is basically preparing for after you're gone. How to basically prepare so that you can remember it. No, no, no, because in Evernote also it's mixed in everything. The recipe of the beef jerky that you like and then whatever. Your driver's license. folder. It's all mixed in. Now, the question is, is there a dedicated space and do your kids know about it? Do your friends, do the people who know you know about where to find because it's no longer like, "Oh, go through that shoe shoe box. Oh, look what you found. All the love letters, all the correspondence, all the communication." So, this digital world wait for some psychologist to go through all three of our emails, the thousands and thousands of emails that three of us have sent back and forth and to psychoanalyze them. Now, you know what they're going to do? You know what they're going to do when this end? You know what our children going to do? They're going to listen to all the old episodes of Behind the Bima. Behind the Bima. And they're going to be like, "They thought that was funny? They thought they had a sense of humor? These are his last father's words. Anyway, on that note, say l'chaim to the firefighters, first responders, l'chaim to the clerks, troopers, incredible. L'chaim to the beautiful community that stepped up in a way made a big kiddush Hashem. Really so proud to be part of it. And um l'chaim l'chaim to Dr. Gruenwald who joined us tonight. L'chaim to Oracle Sal Abbadi, Sal Abby, our dear friend. Hopefully and no one ever needs his services, but if you do, Sal is heartfelt, he's sincere, he's genuine, he cares, he's reliable, he will show up. 561-212-7911 561-212-7911 Sal Abady is the man Oracle. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Stay happy, stay healthy, stay holy. Until next week. This is behind the beamer.