RONNIE with Rabbi Chananya Greenwald - Part 1/2 (Ep. 315)

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But anyway, uh so you can go to my website railowski.com and click on the link. We have a bunch of shorts and ads. It's a lot of fun. Okay, that finishes all of our bits of business and Rabbi Alowski show would like to welcome for his first appearance and hopefully not his last, Rabbi Kan Greenwald to the show. [applause] Thank you. The audience is getting it together. [laughter] And Greenwald uh used to be the rashiva of TJ. Now he's the Rashiva of T [laughter] cuz what I I always remember the Yeshiva was Yeshiva to Ferris and everyone used to call it TJ. And uh and apparently uh there's another yeshiva that has that name in Brooklyn in in Manhattan someplace you may have heard of. And so uh so agreed to change the name to just Teresa. So he's now the Rashiva of Teresa and um in Jerusalem. Yeah. It's like I I mentioned this when David Labowitz came to America and he opened up yeshiva. So he called it yeshiva because sent him to America to open a yeshiva and to build tora and then when one of the family came they said no no we want them name. So they changed the name to yeshiva just rolls off the tongue. Anyway, welcome to the show. >> Thank you. >> It's good to have you here. And I want to tell you why uh Kan is here. [snorts] Rhananya has spent how many years? >> About five >> about five years writing this book which is called Ronnie about his father Rabbi Ronnie Greenwald. Um, I read it through because they sent me a copy for free, which is the best way to get me to read something. I don't read quickly. I have dyslexia. I have ADD. I have focusing problems, you know, and it's it's reading is difficult for me. My wife is one of those people who can open up one of those four page cleers and go like this. Okay, here's what he says. [laughter] And I'm still reading the Da Mascal. Yeah. So, I I read very slow. I I finished everything including the afterward. I read the preface, I read the afterward and I have read a lot of biography books and it starts off okay pretty uh interesting but pretty standard and I said to myself when I go and they write my art school biography and uh I've been trying to come up with something for them to say every now and then I'll be driving somebody and it's raining and they say um you know Uh, I said, "Where do you live?" And I They said, "You just drop me off over here." I said, "No, no, I'll drive it to your house." He goes, "You don't have to." I said, "I need something in my autocobiography." It was raining and it was cold. Remember was sitting in his warm car and he went three minutes out of his way to bring me to my house. Make sure and add that in, you know? So, I figure, okay, they could come up with something. >> But now that I use that for the opening, >> that's three. So, I start reading. It's pretty standard. And then you reach part two. And this is my one criticism of the book. There is nothing to prepare you for this transition. Nothing. All of a sudden, he's in Africa [laughter] being shot at by by communists. He's dealing with the KGB. He's getting Sheransky out. He's he's dealing with some family in in in VNA. He's building a micky. He's running over here. And suddenly he's doing international intrigue which I have to say I have nothing on my resume that could f and I can't think of any biography of any recent person that I can say I I have had any experience like that. He was offered a cabinet position in the Nixon White House which is unbelievable. Forget about the the cover and the money and everything that went with it. And he says no I don't like the schools over there. I'll stay here in Muny [laughter] and I don't know what was he doing termasur at the time maybe for like $12. I don't Anyway, so that just blows you out of the water. So, uh, tell me about this book. How did it get written? What was >> we didn't start in a standard way at all. This book started completely different than every other biography in the Jewish world. >> Tell me about it. >> Starts in an orphanage. Little boy runs to the gate of the orphanage. >> That's not where it started. starts an introduction. >> It's not the introduction. >> Regards from dad. Come on. >> The introduction really shocked me because uh a guy comes over and says, "Oh, you really saved my life. This kid was in a mental institution. His parents had locked him up and somehow your father had managed to get him out." You don't describe how. There's no details given over here, but somehow he took on this very powerful, influential family, and they said, "We're going to destroy you." Apparently, he was told that a lot. >> Yeah. Yeah, it was it wasn't it wasn't the first or the last time. So, so like you start right away you say okay that is out of the ordinary but then okay so give me give us a little details of I remember when I had your brother Zakara on the show he had written a book about Bali Chuva now I knew your dad I had none I had no idea about any of this stuff I knew him from NCSY because we made a convention in Muganav and they said call Ronnie Greenwald he's he's got connections [laughter] they told me he says yeah I'll get you the camp for the for the convention you know, but uh I had no idea. I mean, he was just he was so amazingly average. I would I I mean, I I knew him for years. I would never have guessed anything that's written in this book except like, you know, he had some connections and he helped out people and stuff like that, you know, but the stuff that's in this book is outrageous. So, tell me how does give me the background where this book came from. Well, um, >> by the way, I get criticized sometimes in interviews that I talk too much. Go ahead. [laughter] >> Which, by the way, reminds me of a story. I'm just kidding. >> Hey, donuts. So, [laughter] [gasps] um, >> oh, that's what I was saying. So, when Zakaya was on the I was going to make a point. Zakaya was he said I said, "What do you know about Bali Chuba?" Because I knew your dad. He was like a regular firm guy. She goes, "What do you do, mommy? my mother's abolished chuva. >> Yes. >> And I was like, how is that even possible? So obviously there's more going on over here than than meets the eye. I'm sorry. Now you got the >> I'm still trying to do chuva. So [laughter] um for starters, so you see there's another name in the book, Siri. Uh Mrs. She Yeah, she >> Am Cohen and I go back many years and and >> and I had no idea that he was learning with your father. >> Yeah. Yeah. In the last in the last year they had I think it was maybe I don't remember exactly how long it was for. It was actually my father had a lot of fun in that. How can you not have fun when you're sitting with army gone? >> Yeah. >> And >> No, it's great cuz the two of them can't get in. You see, you're very well behaved. I have guests where the two of us are fighting to to talk, but the two of them are talkers. [laughter] >> They're like reading what it says. >> And so yeah, that was a and then Siri worked on the book for about 3 years. And then there was just this like enormous enormous just amount of stories. And we're really trying to figure out like kind of what >> how big was the book when when she finished? >> Uh it's hard to know cuz there was a lot of editing. There was a lot of additions along the way, but it might have been like 270,000 words. Like now it's 140. >> So it was almost three three times this. >> Could have been it could have been well double double twice. It could have been twice this. It's it's hard to know exactly because it was so many different stages and she spent a really long time. She did most of the interviews. I didn't have time to do any of this like as you mentioned first like I have a yeshiva I didn't I wasn't I wasn't I was just editing cuz I had a I have a >> I have to say the book is very well written. >> Thank you. >> Where'd you get that from? >> Akush knew I would starve if I didn't have a skill [laughter] >> and he gave me I edited the Jon Rosen's book the Raviako book. I I edited a number. You edited Rosen Bloom's books and >> I translated Gomorra for art school. >> Did you hear that? >> And you were you were art school translator? >> I translated Gammora for art school for a few years. >> Where'd you go to high school? >> Which year? [laughter] >> It was not a reason. Okay. >> Where did you go to that you learned how to do this? >> No. >> Cuz most from high schools do not prepare people. >> So as you mentioned like my mother's a chuba she had an education >> has an education. Um in addition um I was a big reader. Instead of school I mostly read. Like I would sit there with a book underneath >> the desk during uh during secular studies. Never never during uh Torah studies. I was uh I was uh too well educated for that. [clears throat] But I uh I would sit there reading and I when I and I took my interview in high school uh for ner that was one of the schools that had the uh pleasure privilege of having um so [laughter] the principal said to me he said how many books have you read in the last year and I said no 350. [laughter] He said 350. I said maybe 400. He says that's more than a book a day. I said right I read a book every day and I would just like kind of work my way through. Then you know they started making those books against the rules in yeshiva but I read I was a very big reader. >> I was inval where guys had English books that they were reading. I don't know what they were but I know the mashia was an Israeli went around and collected all the English books and brought it to me. He says you see what the boys are reading. Mash goes this one's okay. Okay. [laughter] This one's better not Yeshiva. This so apparently you're not the only one who was well read there. This this is part one of the prerequisites to be in Roshiva. >> Yeah. Well, and I [laughter] >> when you have >> How often can we get the same stuff? >> Well, when you have your when you have your next kid at 80, you'll be able to [laughter] >> 88. Come on. >> Speedy had a kid at 81. Anyway, yeah. >> Uh anyway, so um >> Well, that's that's the main way to learn how to write. But I read a lot and I always had just I used to write my friends papers in co they were in college when I was in yeshiva and I [laughter] would help them write papers. I I just I just liked writing and then uh I was >> Have you written other stuff? >> Um >> I understand you edited the art scroll and this >> Yeah. Um I translate a couple's farm but uh but other than that I hadn't done like real creative writing since probably 8th grade. >> There's there's not they say everybody has an a book inside of them. the book I have I have a few other books that I mean we'll see you know if the yeshiva continues I might not write them but >> you know one never knows so >> I don't know what to wish for in that case [laughter] >> yeah I'm not I'm having the same suffic my father's not here to tell me and [laughter] he's my so I'm completely you know >> I know the feeling >> get me another blind man to lead me and I'll tell you you know [laughter] anyway so uh so I so then you know editing we really trying to figure out like as a family like what and you know what kind of what how we wanted the book to feel and she came up with the idea that each kid in the family should write their own chapter or like she'll write their own chapter and that will be growing brainwald >> and uh >> that's a different book that's not >> that's actually in this book so uh >> I know but it's not this book >> well so so it started like that and then it was like h you know what I'm kind of finding the direction of like who I think my father was and like always it's going to be who the who you think the person you're writing about was And oh the goal vision and I had to just keep like >> the goal is at the end to try to come up with an objective picture and I remember when Shar was nifa I didn't listen to any of the >> oh gosh they almost killed me with I was so depressed >> someone said to me why not and I said because they're talking about their mot and I'm talking about mine. >> Yeah >> and and my memory of Mosha is different than everybody else's. Well, for starters, you knew a human being. >> Yeah. That's the first difference, >> right? >> Right. So, I >> So that's why if you take this one's perspective, that one's perspective, you don't see what you see when you're dealing with fact. >> So that so here we had to do that. And also like just to tell the stories in a way that really kind of accorded with I don't remember who you might know this, there was an actor once who said like acting is a great job if nobody catches you at it. >> So I wanted kind of the language to flow in a way that you don't even realize you're reading. It just kind of pulls you in, >> right? >> And so I worked that's why it was 5 years. I mean the latter of whatever. >> If you're a Shiva and you're dealing with tamidim and you're raising money and all the administrative stuff, I don't know where you found the time. >> So I got really sick in the middle almost died and the doctor says cuz I was working too long. I did come back to it though. I was sick for a few years. Right. >> You remember? I remember. >> And um but who gave me life? So when I got really involved originally I was just editing like just editing language cut it down make it flow um and then uh co happened and my mother was basically alone in the house and this book was really she was working on the book my mother's also a very good editor >> and she worked hours on I mean thousands of hours on this book and so >> yeah this is not your average you know [snorts] very often when they put out a biography it comes out like a month after the person was nifa. So either they were writing it while they were still alive or it's a job and very often you read it and it's a job. You know someone told me a story a long time ago where there was some leva in the hamodia in Hebrew reported that uh that there were 100 people at the Levia. So uh somebody called him up and said what are you talking about? I was there there was only 50 people. Goes there were 50 people? I would have said 300. Yeah, we tried not to go that way. you have no there's no hyperbole and any almost almost anything that sounded like uh I mean his life was unbelievable at his I said no the is you're you're allowed to exaggerate by hesp but it's really hard to exaggerate for him >> you know and >> yeah yeah it does not it it the stories are so outrageous >> that you couldn't make it up like you couldn't make up half of these stories you know >> so I was looking back so corona happens co happened. Emma kind of isolated in her home. >> Um and so we were all trying to, you know, we're all being in in touch with her as much as possible. >> Um and I uh I said, "Okay, ma, we're going to work on the book every day." And so like I told everybody, you cannot reach me after 4:30 until 10:00 at night. And then so every day from like 4:35 till like 10, you know, my time in her, she was 9:30 in the morning for her, 10:00 in the morning for her. and I would we would start working on the book together and we kind of were going over it first line by line then paragraph paragraph then gradually looking at the whole tour of it and so there was just all this work was going in. So then I kind of got >> it was I I kind of got sucked in by the undertoe like I was just kind of taking a leisurely swim along the shore. I wasn't really doing this, you know, very deep writing, just kind of, you know, editing. But at some point, I I just got more and more involved and then it kind of took over my life. And uh so then so for I'd leave every day after MKA and I'd like rush home and uh you know, we in the middle of Seder. So 4 4:15 we 4:30 4:30 I rush home. Then in and we this went on quite a few months and then I got sick and then I was doing like four hours, three hours, two hours, an hour. Dr. Matthew says to me like if you continue this you might just die. So I at that point like the you know for a couple of years it just kind of languished like it was just it was not here and not there. It was in between. And then as Barashem I started getting better. So little by little we started putting more and more time into it and um and it was a whole question whether you know how we were going to do it whether we do it with art scroll. I was like are they going to allow this personality to come out is kind of be different. I gave this book to Rasha Weiss last week. This week I went to visit Rasha Weiss. I had a I had a Shiloh fan. So I gave him the book you know with a nice inscription you know and he said to me I'm going to read this book. I'm not going to read the whole thing, but I am going to read this book cuz he was a fascinating man. >> I read the whole thing >> and I feel it was >> and I never read anything. >> Got up, right? And [laughter] >> I don't read nothing >> and and next time you see him, you can just say and look, I'm not trying to brag or anything, but the book and like >> what the footnote [laughter] >> and and it'll say shy. >> I didn't do the glossery in the end. I I knew all the words. I knew all the words. Yeah. And um and so we so he said it's a brave book because it's so different, you know, and he was so different than anybody that traditionally their biography is about. >> And um so I didn't know if they would do it and I said just read it >> and tell me whether you're going to want to change it or not. >> Right. >> And so first it was a lot of back and forth and finally they uh Mrs. Dick read it and she said, "I would not change more than 10 words in this book." >> Wow. >> I didn't know people write like this today anymore. M >> and uh I was like, "Oh." And my mother was like doubting it was going to come out. And my mother's notem, she's not so young anymore, even though she's, you know, great. And she she she was like, "I just want to see it." Like, you know, cuz I didn't know if it would ever come out. Like it was so many years until we kind of got there. So, you know, first of all, without Siri, this never there was no chance this ever would have come out because she probably interviewed a few hundred people. >> That's what I was going to ask you also. Did you rely on all of her material or did you do more research? >> A ton of research and I also ton of memories. >> I also had a ton of experience. And so that was the thing. It's like when you're writing a a book about somebody that you knew tangentially, you knew them or you didn't know them at all and you know you're taking all the interviews and you're trying to build a picture of them then and then I'm like I don't know. A lot is this guy. It's different. I I lived >> right a lot is nuance because I could tell you a story about somebody how I perceived it but someone who knows the story. >> Right. Right. So that that's kind of that's kind of like it was really like the collaboration we we weren't working headtohead but like that's kind of that's kind of how the book came out. And so you know if anybody wants to write a book like this right nine years two people [laughter] it's very easy right the next one from you know idiots. This is not this is not the average uh biography. I tell you that upfront and I've read a bunch of them and uh some of them are are slogs quite frankly and this is just so readable and just so amazing besides the fact that you know a lot of the people think I'll tell you when I knew that this is not your typical god biography um because among the sources you're quoting is Wikileaks >> right so I so I was like this doesn't make sense We you know all this stuff >> who who decided to go to Wikile >> you. >> I was like >> that wasn't sorry >> all this stuff has has has >> these are secret communications in the government >> cables >> where mentions Ronnie all >> he has to be in them >> and I went on to Wikileaks and I found like 20 cables about him and then some of the cases that he was involved in like Kissinger was trying to get this guy out like for eight years and like nothing came of it and I was like this is the guy that he made the deal with. Oh my goodness. cuz I kept hearing it's like a rabbit hole. You could you could be, you know, go down there forever. Wikileak I don't know how many hundred million cables like >> Yeah, it's it's unbelievable. That's why I don't know how you found them. >> They have a great search function. >> Yeah, >> they have a great search function and I just used the search function and then then we had to like put the story together like okay this was this year, this was this trip. This was this. >> Are there more things there that you left out? >> Yeah, sure. >> Like like >> Yeah, sure. >> Daggers afterwards. Yeah. From Oh, yeah. Dozens. But we didn't know this. my father. >> There were a couple stories there which you allude to and you say my father didn't want us to talk about this or he never mentioned about this story. >> Yeah. Like more than that like I got a like I got a I got a call from a guy in South Africa a letter from someone in South Africa like we knew about some case cuz it was alluded to in the Wikileaks but I never knew the details and he had done some deal to get South African soldiers who were being held in like Rwanda that was under Cuban control. >> It has nothing to do with your dad. No. No. Except no there >> except yeah except that they contacted my father to ask if he could use as they called it in the Wikileaks his good offices right >> I think it was like I don't know Warren Christopher like you know oh nothing is going to come out of there >> Warren hope you're not watching no I hope you watch it now stop >> so >> tell that tell the first one was the one in Mosamb be >> that was the first one >> so tell the story because there's so many aspects of this story that is so outrageous is that doesn't fit in with anything that the >> Shil photographer I found a photographer there's a picture there >> the pictures >> I reached him a couple of months ago >> to ask him if he had a certain picture that I had seen in the book cuz I wanted it on the book cover >> and uh and he is like on some kind of you know Zen retreat out in South Africa somewhere and but he actually he he responded and we were back and forth he said I I I don't have the microphone anymore It was microfilm. It was 1978. It was >> I got to tell this story cuz this is the first when I read this. This was the first one. He he was he he was he he started a couple of camps. He was working in Torah Masor. He was a rebi in to okay this is all >> regular pretty standard stuff. Next thing I know he goes to Israel for some conference. >> Wait wait wait. But you see >> and then and that's when everything just goes insane. That's when the book goes off the rails. So it started before this because he got involved in local politics mayor mayor you know uh in Brooklyn George Klein >> started with Rockefeller listen even before that maybe with Lindsay Lindsay and Rockefeller so he got very involved in bringing Rockefeller to >> Brooklyn Bor he him and Marvin Schik and uh >> I remember Rockefeller >> right? Yeah, sure. Rocky. >> I mean, >> and uh >> I grew up every time I wanted to do something, my father would say, "What do you think? My name is Rockefeller." >> Right. >> Today, nobody knows who he is, but like, you know, >> that was Rockefeller was like, uh, you know, uh, was like Rothschild, you know what I mean? What am I a Rothschild? You know, so he used to say, "What am I Rockefeller?" You know, >> father was a billionaire. He used to give out John D. Yeah. He used to give out nickels to his family, >> right? But he uh he had a ranch in South America that was bigger than all of New York City. >> So, you know, he was like >> obviously wealthy Rockefeller, you know, >> place to put all your animals. >> Anyway, so uh he brought it he he did >> so he was with Lindsay before then. >> Lindsay and Rockefeller. >> But how do you get into politics? cuz there was there were there were local knees and I think George Klein Republican coalition and he he said he I think he's the one who's already a little involved in politics he said look there are people who could bring you to Jewish vote so my father was one of those guys he has some line he says Rabbi Steven wise king you know sees that people you know once a year at the high holidays he says I can get out to vote between >> now this is interesting because the from community was not large at this time they were growing and what was happening was >> like I wouldn't think a polit think a politician would much rather get the regular vote than to go for the Orthodox vote >> borrow you need your assemblymen you need your you you need your congressman you need all the people represented he's like there's a type of Jew here that you don't even know about and >> right there was a line in the book where he said all of these buildings are filled with Democratic voters but they all believe in what the Republicans believe in so we we have a chance to switch them over. I thought that was a great line. >> Yeah. So he so so he got involved in Rockefeller's campaign. It was supposed to only be local just in uh in in Bora Park or you know >> was he having a hard time at this point Rockefeller cuz he he'd been governor for years. >> I don't know. But he I guess he wanted to vote. He heard that there's a you know Louiswitz was Jewish and I'm saying they were like well he was attorney Javitz and saying yes. So they were so I don't know like I I was I don't know 5 years old 6 years old like I you know we're 1965 you know I'm a youngster here. >> Yeah. >> So uh so uh he worked on Rockefeller campaign and there was some kind of some issue with the motorc kid and it was interesting. Rockefeller was very dyslexic >> really. >> And they would write I I don't know if I don't know if it was his idea but they would write out his notes like on an index card like very large like one or two words on an index card and that's how they would prompt him like you like the teleprompter you have here for me. So like something like that and and they would that's how they would prompt him and and that's how he would do cuz he couldn't read a regular sentence without scrambling it. >> Wow. >> But he was so charismatic and he so you know he had such personality. Anyway, so something my father did stood out and he said, "I want ran for president. I want him for the rest of the campaign." I did not know that. >> Yeah. >> 64. I wasn't born. Of course, I don't know. >> He lost to Goldwater. And it's >> Goldwater. Nixon. No, Nixon lost to Barry Goldwater. >> No, Nixon didn't run in ' 64. He ran in 60 and 68. >> But >> you won't have me to kick around. [laughter] >> That was when he ran for governor of uh California and he lost. >> So, he he waited. But uh but Rockefeller would have gotten there, but there was some sort of scandal that went on and the Republican base turned against him. Yeah. Amazing, huh? And so uh so he he uh he lost the nomination. >> Now Rockefeller gets in. >> It's almost president. >> Rockefeller gets in. He's vice president. If Nixon had gotten impeached a little earlier, >> right? >> So then he would have been president. >> Yeah. >> So he kind of brought my father to their attention. And so my father then ran the vote for Nixon, the Jewish vote in 13 states, I think the eastern seabboard, and they got like 35% of the votes. Uh, which is the first time. Uh, >> so now they gave him a whole bunch of states to do. He's a he's basically a guy from Brooklyn. So why' they give him all these states >> back then? One out of I think 14 people in America was born in Brooklyn. Just putting that out there for you. >> But I'm saying he's some guy working for Torah Masur and we say, "I know. Let's put him in charge of multiple states in a presidential campaign." >> Yeah. Okay. I'm Yeah, ask them. [laughter] >> That's unusual. >> Yeah, I guess so. I mean, he must have impressed them. I I guess Rockefeller had really must have said good stuff about him. You're right. I You know, a lot of stuff we didn't unpack cuz we just grew up with it. And then there's no records about this. Anything that there's records for I found things in the congressional record, these conversations. I was I would I I can't I found things in I mean about the stories in Peru. I'm looking in Peruvian documents, translating them with Google translate. Forget about it. There was no end to this. At some point, >> the Peru story is also amazing. >> Huh? >> The Peru story is also >> Anyway, so get back to South because he got >> Mosmbique. Mosmbique. >> Yeah, back to Mosmbique. So, okay. [laughter] So, he's involved in local politics and he's involved with Nixon and he works on committee to reelect President Creep as they called a committee to re-elect President Nixon. remember that? And then the Watergate scandal broke and Nixon gets impeached. So now Nixon is out. Ford is in. He had a little bit of relationship with Ford. Ford was vice president the second uh time around and he had a bit of he had you know letter from Ford back about Kissinger and um and uh he's a little bit involved. Then Carter gets in, right? Was it Carter next? So Carter gets in and now it's a Democrat. So he has some connections but not what he used to have. Now he's in Soul. since 1977 I think and um >> that's when the Sadat and Bean coinc >> Ah so but yeah but this wasn't this was just this was just he's in for an OU convention >> nothing to do nothing >> with any politics with nothing >> nothing nothing no what happened was this guy uh flat chiron who was a member of the crazy story how he became murder whatever >> and he had his uh and he reached reached out to my uncle who had built a nursing home in Israel. He had built Liato Hospital, my uncle, >> right? >> And he had also built a nursing home first before Li maybe was even finished or maybe Liato was first, I don't remember. But he had done this stuff. So he had these connections in with the government here. So Fat reached out to him. Here's an American doing things in Israel. Do you have connections in America with the government? He says, "I don't my younger brother does." And my father had once met him somewhere, Faton in New York. Whatever the case, uh I think whatever the case when my father came back to came to Stro for this OU convention essentially um flat so flat reached out to him and he said how would you like to you know uh save Anatoli Jaransky who had just then become like famous in the news refusnik he wanted to immigrate to Israel they said he was an American spy who wouldn't want to save so he goes to you know to uh to uh meet with And my mother was there also like this beautiful villa in Savion. I mean you know the guy was uh he had saved $300 million in taxes in France apparently. So he had plenty plenty for his villa and whatever the case >> that was a great story. >> So yeah so so whatever the case he he says you know you want to free him this might be too early for him but there is a guy I guess whose mother maybe was living in Israel. He was an Israeli citizen Marcus. He's living in he's he's in jail in Mosamb beek. He's flying a private plane. Him and his brother-in-law crash landed in Mosamb beek or it was shot down even in Wikileaks. He can't like even with the you know there's no radar to I guess to talk about like >> but when he saved him why didn't they ask him how'd you get there? >> Uh maybe he did but >> we don't know. He didn't tell that he was. >> Yeah. So he was see I think he said they were shot down and I think he said they were shot down. In any event, he was like taking putting this page in Mozambique. I mean, uh, they said he was an Israeli spy, South African spy, whatever it was. They didn't like either one. They were under the Soviet rule. So, you know, as a result, so uh, so he ended up spending, uh, 19 months in jail. He actually got out of that cage at one point and he came to the American embassy and he had four bullet wounds. His brother-in-law was killed. He had four bullet wounds. You could even see in the pictures like his elbow and uh and Americans said, "Well, he was thin. He was, you know, whatever. It didn't look like he was so mistreated. He wasn't an American citizen. We didn't let him in. We sent him back." And so, you know, Yeah. So, uh so yeah, he wasn't American citizen. So, he he he was back in Mosmbique and so Flat Chiron wanted to do something about it. And >> what what did Flat Chiron have to do with this guy in Mosmbique? >> No, because he was Israeli citizen. >> Yeah. But how come nobody in the government cares about this guy except for Flat Shro of all people. >> Okay, you will never you will never unpack this one. That >> who from what I remember he was one of the least concerned about anything other than himself and suddenly he's worried about this this Marcus and Mosmbique. >> We only had positive experiences with him. >> I know. But nobody else question. Nobody from the pagan government, nobody from the left, nobody that nobody cared about him except Flat Shaon. >> Yeah. At some point the government um actually was there was a fear that the government might block it. Like that's in Wikileaks. I didn't put it in, but that's in Wikileaks. Like there was a Israeli government might block it. Like what do you mean? Like you know if the Soviet spy being freed, let's get more for it than you know than this 24y old guy who was like whatever the case was. So he's so he's so so so he's in jail and he says to my father you know he get my father says you would ask me about swaps you know back then what do I know about swapping he says I don't know bunkiml to bunk hey you know in camp like swap prisoner swaps prisoner swaps didn't almost really didn't exist in the international community uh where it did exist was in >> in Germany on the east Berlin >> and that's darly over there >> and that's where the lawyer that he did his work with Wolf Gang Vog Vogle. That's where he had first started this whole thing of swaps. Him and his uh >> Now, how did he hook up with this guy? Cuz that's also an amazing point. It's not clear in the book where Wolf Gang came into this. Close on your dad is working with this communist lawyer. >> So Wolf Gang had one famous case. Francis Gary Powers. Yeah. >> Got shot down. >> Sure. >> From Cuba, right? >> Um was it Cuba? >> Anyway, he got shot down. >> Russia. But he got shot down. He was you he was flying a spy plane. >> He got shot down. >> The U2 >> in the U2, right? And he was uh and he was and and that was the last prisoner swap that had been done uh trade. It was a spy trade. It >> was a spy trade in the 60s >> that had been done and Wolf Gangel had brokered the deal for the East for the Russians. >> So this is 15 years later. >> Yes. See, he's an East German lawyer who is doing all kinds of prisoner swaps with East and West Germany, >> but he had brokered a trade between the United States and uh and and and Soviet Union. >> So your father who has nothing running camp Sternber >> Chiron? No, my father knew so much about politics. So, but I don't think he knew about this. I think >> who knew about the Wolf Gang guy. >> I think Fat Shiron made the connection. I think he knows my mother. >> I mean, he was the guy was in politics. I don't know. So, he knew. I you know I took the question I I said to my mother how did he find these different people how did he figure out how do you do so she's like I have no idea he >> really hard he read a lot >> one of the fascinating things is there's this little drawing in your father's handwriting he's got like six countries he says what if we switch this guy to them have them give him him and that and then we could get your [laughter] >> it's like you just like doodling names and think Maybe if Israel gives this one to him and South Africa gives them >> and can just hear him. Maybe I might do it. [laughter] >> I think we can pull this off. >> Anyway, so so so he >> so he hooks up with Wolf Gang. >> So he so he calls Gilman, Congressman Gilman, >> which is also a fascinating connection. It's in the book over and over. >> He's a local congressman, >> but at some point he became a senator. >> No, he became the head of the foreign affairs committee of the House of Representatives. Yeah, >> cuz this guy is from Muny. >> He's from Rockland County, >> right? And suddenly he's the most important guy in the US government. I never heard of this guy until I read this book. >> My father helped him get into, you know, office. Like he got in by this much. But the from community in my carried the vote, >> right? >> And then he was, I think, one of the longest or if not the longest serving member of uh of Congress. And uh >> he keeps popping up in every single story. Gilman's there. >> Yeah. Moving up. And that's the crazy thing that Cheransky told us that that Jungen's Kazal was your father. Everything he said was Ronnie Greenwald says, which I, you know, they were good friends. He was the only politician uh that was a friend. Like in other words, that my father like actually welcomed into the home. We we we knew him came from my Yeah. Basketball playing basketball with me. >> Uh that picture uh is good of him. No, he was shooting like [laughter] you know head shot whatever. He was also not >> a good thing he was in Congress. >> He was younger than I am now. So he wasn't so old perhaps, but he he uh he was uh he was at my bar mitzvah. There was a picture in People magazine with me, my father, and Congressman Gilman at the baritzvah. This is after a prisoner swap. Like that's that was my first claim to fame. Then I now it's David. I'm Rabbi show. That's my second. But with >> what's amazing over here is it sounds like Gilman got more out of this than your father did >> cuz he suddenly gets projected into every international thing when he's just a congressman from my you know what I mean? And suddenly he's involved in every international swap. >> Yeah. But you see Yeah. But he was he was like he was like a silver star aviator like he was like a serious guy going. He performed in the wars. He he was like a pretty talented guy. But I asked my father once like if you know how smart was he. He says he's careful. He's like methodical. He's he wasn't you know going to think he didn't think couldn't father could think you know like like that like out of the box but he really passed a lot of legislation a lot of legislation >> but he figured out how to how to use your father >> father to the state department and he got you know and and so all that stuff kind of really uh >> and these people took your father seriously. in the beginning especially you see >> some guy runs a camp and he comes in and goes hi I want to do international phrase >> don't they know he's a rebel also [laughter] >> anyway so they yeah they they didn't they it took a while >> and he didn't look the part from the way you describe it he wore red suspenders and a purple shirt and a >> I know but it's like so that's not like how you like >> whereas people with a power sweater you power tie >> that wasn't his power tie and and his taste in clothing was so fascinating and he could you know all the colors of the rainbow at once. You know what I'm saying? No problem. He loved bright colors. Um and my my mother once said I think he's color blind. That's why he thinks these things go together. >> Yes. >> So we said Tara what color is your tie? He said purple. I said what color is your shirt? He's like pink. What color? You know he's suspended red. I'm like no m he he sees the color. [laughter] He just flexed it together anyway. Yeah, he wasn't color blind. Anyway, so uh so they started this negotiation and they end up getting this guy from for heaven's sake an Israeli South African citizen but because the the Soviet Union and America were struggling like for world domination, right? >> And they were like each spying on >> Yeah, this is the worst part in the 70s. Nobody wants to admit it like as if like spying is like a pro like you know no we don't spy you know he's not a spy we have no spies you know and like no we have a spy we didn't catch them no we have no spy you know what are they talking about like this is but this is part of the lie of you know the way the world plays the games and um a Russian spy Robert Thompson 13 years already in prison in Pennsylvania they end up training him >> this guy and for a guy in uh in uh in uh in East Berlin. >> Now, why was that worth it to America, >> right? And >> cuz some Israeli guy >> question, right? You know, you you tell me. Hubert Humphrey Oh, so what happened was is that Hubert Humphrey, who was once vice president for Lyndon Johnson, >> Sure. >> was was he senator maybe in Minnesota? Mhm. >> So he was uh um uh one of his constituents had tried to smuggle people out of East Berlin to get him to West Berlin to freedom, like out of the communist East Berlin to West Berlin. And he got caught and he was in prison. And so when they heard that Thompson was being traded, they got all upset. You know, we want Thompson. And my father managed to work out the two of them for Thompson. >> Wow. And so yeah, I mean it was it went on forever. I'm saying it was months and months of negotiations, >> right? And then it comes down to seder night. >> This is the part that I found absolutely fascinating. >> Yeah, it wasn't. >> My father wasn't there for the >> first day. Yeah. >> First day. He has to go to Mosmbique >> traveling. end up arriving on in South Africa Franc to go and he said you know with him and with others you know my father's like he doesn't even know what this [laughter] what is he talking about you know okay said anyway they end up going on chabas on on they end up landing on yontiff and said he could have one stop and that could be his base and from there he could go when he has to to the you know to to the swap. [snorts] So >> why did he have to >> who sent the car for him? >> So uh so the US embassy sent the car, but the driver showed up drunk. >> Anyway, they ended up getting a cab and and and the guy drove around the streets. I had no idea where he was going. They get to the at 2:00 in the morning and uh it's like, you know, uh they're just opening the door for Elio [laughter] and they walk in and uh and this whole case is like top secret, >> right? Nobody's allowed to know anything about it, but somehow somebody smells something is going on, you know, like the mikvah >> the mikvah, right? >> And so like the story is like, you know, is percolating. And so like the next morning they're when they're when they're actually leaving to go to the the swap or two mornings later, work out the math, and they're going to the place where the swap is going to happen. And uh they hear the kids do diving, doing like my like what's going on? And they're like, uh, the kids are dabbing that your mission should be Matslak. You know, >> your top secret mission. >> Yeah. Your top secret mission should be Matsah. >> And, uh, and he was terrified like if the Russians find out, the Russians could cancel in the last minute. They hated publicity. >> And he always believed that about even, you know, Russian jewelry that the way it was with quiet diplomacy. And, okay, you know, everybody can argue about it. Nobody's ever going to, you know, uh, win this argument. But >> this is what somebody I won't mention who it is but somebody who was involved in politics said about um uh you know the spy that they arrested uh who was giving information to Israel uh >> pard they said the same thing. They said these demonstrations and stuff is hurting because my father said it at the time. My father said at the time he went to see Pard in prison as you know and we got this long letter from Pard 27 pages >> but he couldn't get him out. He he he they they were stonewalled at every at every level. There was so much >> which is so interesting. Why is this why why did every administration hate Pard more than any other spike? >> Pard recently said and I know this from completely random place. They might show me a clip. He recently said because the what what happened was is that who was the spy? Was it Aldrich Ames? No. Long time ago. Who was it? So a very very big spy who was still in place in Russia floated that he was the guy burning the Russian assets. So the information came back to them that Pard was the guy burning the Russian the Isra the American spies in Russia. [snorts] And so this is what's going on. He's the guy burning the spies. >> That's not true. >> No. Then they finally caught the guy who did it >> and they still didn't let him go. >> Well, you know, you know, now you have to admit you're wrong. Come on. Who this is politics? a lot. We're grown-ups here. >> Somebody told me it's cuz Casper Weinberger was an anti-semite. >> This may or may not be the reason. I have heard that many times. My father said, "You cannot get information. Gilman could not get information. You're not you're not cleared for this basically is what they're makes a lot of sense." And they thought >> that he was the guy burning the Russian spy the American spies in Russia. >> Okay. >> With all this stuff going on. Um >> so I'm interrupting you. So now >> So now we have a >> he has to get to Mosmbik on first day. Yiff. >> Yeah. Second day of >> second day. >> And he's and he's there with Gilman this little private plane. I found this information in Wikileaks also about the site airirstrip and and and and there's no lights there and they're using like you know jeeps to like Oh, very cool. Anyway, so he he they they go >> he wasn't afraid they might just shoot him. >> I don't understand this. I >> because if I'm some guy from some poor guy from Brooklyn and I'm landing in the middle of Mosmb beek in a little plane surrounded by a bunch of communists with with machine guns I would be nervous. >> When Gilman asked >> I'm nervous. >> I think those kids are still doing the troops. True story. >> I'm nervous when I land in Bengorian and I have to go through customs. I'm afraid they're going to shoot me. >> That's right. >> It's a land in Mosmb beek. Somebody asked me this on the podcast recently this this question like I I don't know how to answer this Bal Kaplan said he came to the Shiva of my father and he knew him since he was a bak he says I could tell you this there's no person on earth that your father was afraid of besides there was nobody else on earth that your father was afraid of I don't know how I don't know maybe it's because of the tough upbringing and the way he internalized it and he did what he had to do you know to go past it I don't know that he didn't have fear I know that he did never allow allowed the fear to kak. That's the way I would say it. Of course, he had fear, but I never saw him afraid. The only time I saw him afraid was uh when he thought he had a heart attack because the guy who was doing EKG said he had a heart attack, but he didn't have at that point a heart attack. He had one eight years later. But he he and it was shabis and we spent many hours in the hospital and then it was in the spar that was not a heart attack. But uh while the guy was doing the EKG, somebody bumped into the couch and it messed up the reading and the guy said it wasn't, you know, it had nothing to do with it. He's having a heart attack. He said, "You're having a heart attack, sir." And for a minute, my father I I saw was I saw like real fear. And then he was like a little quiet and he got back to himself. But he was that really took like a lot out of him. It like he it weakened him. Like he was weaker after that. You know, the guy's a genius, you know. But um even in the ambulance on our way to the hospital, the sirens are doing their thing. And uh I was like, "Sh, just tell him, you know, tell him to turn down the siren, you know, like and the guy's like, "No, sorry, sir. We have to do this when we go through intersections." Whatever the case, but it was wrong. It was not a heart attack. He did have one on an LL flight and uh when he was 73 years old and believe it or not, there was not a doctor on the flight. What are the chances from LL or at least no one came? >> Did they have a defibrillator? >> He didn't need one. They didn't He felt a little better to get oxygen. He felt a little better. He came fine. And I'm like, "Go to the doctor's not fine. You're going to the Anyway, she basically did like, you know, the tiger thing like you're you're not leaving, you know, whatever till you see the doctor." Okay. Yeah. He had right there, which saved his life cuz he had uh you know that were like 97% oluded. So, yeah. So, he had he they could only do a triple bypass. But, >> well, that's cuz in the book he's constantly going out to breakfast and lunch with everybody. He's in the bagel store every single day. I'm sure they had >> No wonder. No wonder I always saw a bad bagel after the heart attack. [laughter] >> Every time I'm reading the book, >> he took him out to breakfast. He took him out to lunch. He was given to this. He was about that. He's like, "So one of these in the bagel store every single day." >> You should know that his I don't know. His meetings took place over food. What can I tell you? He's a very Jewish thing to do. Um I mean it took place all day and all night, but you know, meal time was a serious time to meet people. You could have sushi together. Now I I tried to work this out because you know uh David Davin did my little sh over here for uh for the yard site and um and uh I spoke a little bit about your father and and I said I you know I can't figure out how all of this fits in timewise. So he says Kani did not write the book chronologically. A lot of the stuff that comes later happened first and then he did it thematically in putting it together. >> But he started Muganav, he started Sternberg. >> Rabbit Bernard Warberg started Muganov, but he he made it work. >> He he recruited, he raised money, he ran programs. >> Hard to make a living. These people working 17 jobs over all this stuff, right? And and he's flying around the world getting out prisoners. He's talking to every kid who's off the Derek in in the greater New York area. He's he's running over here. He's meeting with this one. He's doing that. He's visiting family in Israel. He's all the kind of stuff. Where is the hours in the day to physically do all the stuff that he he started Mishkun, he started uh um mental health services in Brooklyn, he started what I mean, I just keep every time the page comes another organization he's starting. I don't think he's doing it. He's meeting with these people. >> Well, I mean, this would be a great time to make a commercial break for the value of having ADHD. [laughter] >> He was everywhere, you know. >> Did he actually have ADHD? >> I don't think so. I >> I know he had a business card. Yeah. Yeah. Ronnie Greenwald. ADD. ADHD. >> ADD for sure. Is there a difference? Is not a difference? I mean, he could he he did have a certain ability to multitask. So he obviously had a extremely high energy level. >> Yeah. Yeah. And he always stayed on message. He knew how to stay on message and he always knew how to >> do how many messages? >> Yes. And he did things quickly. And if you do things quickly and you're doing them all the time and you do it every day, it really adds up. It really adds up. Like if you're talking to one person a day for 50 years, you know, I mean it's not 10 million. It's not like going to Disneyland a million times, but like that's a lot of people, right? He he he did this. He was always doing >> but he never spoke to one person a day. >> Yeah. He spoke to more. >> Many many more. And that's why there was the story like just before he died he's sitting on the phone just calling different people to say how you doing. >> That's right. Yeah. >> That's how it started is when he was when he was just married there was somebody who who died and he used to come and pick up the kids and take them to >> he was a ber he was a ber. He wasn't married. He was maybe 17. He'd gotten back to New York from from Del. So he was maybe 17 >> and it said and he stayed up with these kids for for years. >> He brought Yeah. Yeah. And he and he brought them to Davin all the time, you know, till and he then he moved then he went, you know, when they when when the when the when the one who was continuing to Davin with him uh aged out of the, you know, the youth minion so you know then he he moved up and then he went back to his place. But yeah, he he did that. I have I have a list of a hundred people that I'm meaning to call. >> So did he. >> But but I made that list like 10 years ago. >> Yeah. >> And I'm meaning to call them. I really am. I'm really thinking of you. And all you people who wrote emails and you say, "Why isn't answering my emails?" I'm going to just right away soon [laughter] because I'm disorganized. >> Yeah. >> I really have. >> He was He's super or he was super organized. He could he everything he he could just break down everything into the granular parts and and just you know and and and that he he did that that's the way he that's the way he saw like problems like he just broke it down into its parts and uh this is you know it is a special uh you know gift that some people have I mean he refined it over the years obviously what he did at 17 wasn't what he did at 30 wasn't what he did at 50 you know >> but he he had to have been very high energy >> because it just takes a tremendous amount of strength to do all all the flying back and forth and the traveling, it's got to knock you out, you know. >> So that's why you have all these pictures when he was younger and when he was first getting married, he's always standing on his head. He's always jumping over here. He's walking on lines and stupid. >> So he obviously had a >> sweating standing on his head, >> right? He obviously Yeah. And a look on your mother's face, I think, is worth the price of the book alone when she just marries this guy and he's standing on his head at the wedding. So, >> but I think she wasn't surprised by it like this is the guy she married like, you know. >> I know. But there's a look on her face that I think says a lot. But and I have to tell you that was one of the things that I found so amazing. Um uh Laavdil laavdil um somebody in the Kennedy administration he said you know we used to read about these people that worked with FDR and his cabinet and all the things they accomplished etc. And we thought they were like superstars and then I realized they're just like you know me and you. We're just regular people doing our jobs. It's just because of the historical context. The very end of the book, because I read the whole book, just coming in the end of the book, your mom writes the following. And I didn't know what to make out of this because throughout the entire book, he's written like a superhero. And she says, It's the Rabbi Orloski Show. Torah and Sima, ready to go. The Rabbi Olavski Show. Knowledge and wisdom will help you grow. Lots of fun in every episode. And we don't have to rhyme, don't we? It's the Rabbi Orlovski show on rabbi.com. Torah [music] anytime you two and more. It's the Rabbi Olavski show. Torah and ready to go. It's the Rabbi orski show. Till next time till we meet again. [music] The Rabbi orski show. It's the Rabbi orski show. It's the Rabbi orski show.