73: Seminary Series: The Backlash

hi I'm Deborah Orlowski and welcome to the gravit Alaska show and whether you watch it with our friends over at or any time or on YouTube or wherever you listen to watch your podcasts we are so happy and excited to have you on board and this episode is sponsored by Rabbi avi Landa who is dedicating this and honor of his wonderful wife Ohama to my incredible wife who could expertly lead seminaries in base Yaakov and yet sets up priorities on raising and nurturing our beautiful family well secondarily teaching as well with a beautiful Harville way for a talented woman to use her Cocos exclamation mark by the way we enjoy the podcast very much your laughs is awesome and contagious and the material is good too okay and also he has a love website ww-when de CCL en da CC calm well he has many hush kapha and mental health resources available to the public for free so feel free to visit that website and we're happy to have the sponsorship this week I hope I really really believe that this will be the last in my series on seminaries at least until I feel like talking about it again because there is no absolutes in this world but I have to say that I have had an outpouring of response from people from the seminary series and if you take a look you'll see these are among some of my most watched videos evidently this is an issue that needs to be addressed and I want to read excerpts from some of the emails I can't possibly read them all because I've been talking I've been talking now for five weeks yeah and I've been certainly not shy to share my own opinions and people have other opinions I am only one among many and I never claimed that my opinions are definitive you can disagree with me at your peril but I some people wrote in some things that I think are cogent to our discussion and I wanted to share them with you first and foremost I made the point that most of the girls who go today and most of the seminaries today are not really focused on growth that's not what they were about they told a story about one very prominent seminary where they got rid of a rabbi because he was dealing with the girls personal issues and problems and they said that's not what we do here we're here just to teach some Torrent send them home you know we're not there to try to help them grow so some people took exception with that I read from the first email today I wanted to comment on the seminary question why go to seminary trail don't high schools in America do a good enough job the answer is yes or no yes they do a wonderful job of educating the girls in teheran mitzvahs but for most girls this is not powerful enough to last through the tests of life this is where seminary comes in seminary is the CEO that locks in all that we learn in high school and retains it for life I went to seminary in 1985 it changed my life and my friends who attended I'm just gonna throw out there all the way at the beginning I pointed out that I believe that the situation has changed dramatically 85 90 500 515 this is 35 years ago and I think I pointed out things have changed dramatically in that time but okay yeah I'm reading excerpts from this email because it's several pages long myths are became something we wanted to do not just what we had to do we grew in our willing acceptance of Torah and high school one is forced to attend and may even learn and grow but in seminary where a girl chooses to go this is where when accept start admits us with love I just want to point out that is true when you went where was not considered required to go to seminary now that every girl has to go to seminary a lot of girls feel like they have to go to classes just like they had to go in high school I have heard the complaint many times that seminary is just another year of high school I'm and I'm not trying to take away from anybody's experience I'm just sharing the other side but I want to bring up the points that people were making and just with with a little commentary the growth in Eretz shell is not simply from the teachers in schools is at least 50% from the shabbos and present experiences of people's homes in fact there are so many different factors involved in a girl's growth and Seminary that is hard to put into words I heard this from one head of a seminary who said the families that are living in Eretz shell the girls are able to see something that they cannot see in America and that's the advantage I don't know if that requires it you're in seminary or not just to be able to see it she's claiming 50% of it so I would say just send her here to Israel to the you know live with relatives and walk around see some of the families that's that's ethically even for me anyway guys remind me to point that just meeting and living with girls from out of town is instrumental and a girl's growth okay no question about that was it that was definitely a good point the experience to be in a dormitory etc and to experience it now I grew up with the television my home reading English books throughout high school another aspect tonight's show has do it separated from the gosh Miss America no more books or shopping it's a very important part of the seminary experience assuming that the girl can't get her hands on books or go shopping in Eretz show things have changed a lot in 35 years you can do a lot of shop in here yeah although most girls don't watch TV anymore the cash rates America is overwhelming with smartphones and much more anyway I'm not gonna say anything don't forget this is the first year of learning tour without any English subjects that is a crucial reason to go to seminary yes I agree with you but that's not a reason to go to seminary Israel that's a reason to go to having a year of Jewish experience afterwards there's a long amount I'm picking out excerpts and I apologize to sum it up I believe that the seminary experience is similar to the bow chuhwa experience this is an agent time in a girl's life that she accepts all the ideals hash buffer and Torah that she has learned to an entire life and sealed it in tirana Shama to pass on to the next generation okay this is one listeners perspective that I wanted to share because I definitely did not make these points I have another one to be fair I must explained that I grew up in Silver Spring Maryland and an orthodox family with strong Torah values but it is far from a base Yaakov type of a home now I did say be fair that Seminary definitely is worthwhile for some people I always said that my point was that in the old days those people who felt they wanted to go to seminary or to gain something they went it wasn't that everybody had to go today everybody has to go it was with the strong intention of growing in my understanding and practice of Yiddish guide that I can say that and I can do the same for many of the girls that I know from Silver Spring who went to become seminaries you know okay that's fair now but I can tell you also but the girls from basic of high schools who were with me in seminary with the clear intention of growth we listened to the formal and informal lessons that were imparted and discussed thought about and internalized many of those lessons all right now there's no question girl who's coming from a less than stark background and you're going to it show the seminary to stock up and you know etc this it's a very very valuable valuable tool I would also like to address the academic learning now I I was I was you know flippant about this and I threw around those lines of like how many you know run bonds you have to learn to pick a cuckoo-land things you know but she says the following and again I'm reading excerpts it's a very long letter I had always heard about the depth of Torah but nothing can compare to my being exposed to some of the depth on a first-hand basis that is definitely true you can learn Torah in a very high level I would argue you don't have to look at its trail for that there are excellent seminaries in America as well but now I will fully admit that I have not picked up my Meldrick report in years there were times I asked myself what the purpose of all that learning was over time I found the balance that works for me I listened to Sheeran frequently while doing mundane tasks that don't take much brainpower and I see that the meadows development necessarily being a good wife and mother and an emulation of a sham and the fulfillment of my purpose that stage of life I am not sure if there is any way to prepare girls for the transformation into motherhood but one thing I am sure of the academic learning that I experienced in seminary had a massive impact on my trajectory in life meaning if I had not seen the depth of Torah it is possible that I might not have chosen to have gone on and learnt the way that I did so those are the people who are focusing on the positive aspects of seminary none of which I disagree with the other side seminary has never been a necessity it's a case of keeping up with the Cohens there were countless all the girls crying their heart out diving to find a shirt that they went to top seminaries there goes that myth okay I don't know I can't tell you I can't tell you if you have a leg up because you you know people will tell you there there are rich beautiful smart from girls who can't French adulkin however being poor and and ugly and not so from your chances might be less there may be going through a top seminary doesn't guarantee you'll find a up but perhaps it increases your possibilities many years ago my husband I went to discuss very Yanam with Remender Weinbach seminary's was one of them he mentioned many people feel that if their daughter goes to X seminary she will find a better shooter there is nothing further from the truth hakodesh Baraka was mazhab eggsy william he decides who it is and when there is no such thing as a better sugar cutter sparkle gives everyone the that is best for them when the time comes and in response to the idea of the academics she writes and again I'm so much long all these are much longer yeah but um don't want wise to drug to dish up ROM bonds or even redox for breakfast lunch or supper neither do they want wives to lead the Shabbos table with liberate Torah that they learned in seminary okay I'm not arguing pro con I'm just presenting that point of view another issue that came up is of course when I spoke about the money and there were people who commented on both sides I read you again an excerpt from a letter I have a daughter did very well on tests and have good grades report cards a principal told her she should apply to specific seminaries and would have no issues however my daughter who is strict on me dos sneeze and had the grades did not get accepted in these schools there should be accountability for a school that takes a hundred to one hundred and seventy five dollars for an application knowing that they have no room for these students and they're just stealing the parents money one of the seminaries had a two minute interview with my daughter which included her reading a round bomb and that was it then when my daughter did not get accepted to any of the schools the principal said it was my responsibility to get her into a seminary well that was impossible we tried every connection we could think of but we were unsuccessful finally the principal found one seminary willing to take my daughter since my daughter really wanted to go and she wants to gain a deeper understanding of Yiddish height and experience living in Eretz well she went now she's been there for a few months and she is bored the learning is repetitive of her high school education but being about me does she's working on accepting her situation and making the most of it i download Sheeran for her weekly and she reads farm on her own okay you can argue this is not this is not representative of most of the girls but somebody else when I was discussing how do you choose a seminary person wrote me a very short email said whoever you get accepted okay well someone sent me this there's evidently a collection of where they take excerpts from the victim Ella's tapes and put it in question and answer form this is from tape II - two one seven here's the question is there a problem with taking children to concerts where chom rate or a mitzvahs will be singing kosher songs this is a victim illa speak I'll tell you my private opinion I don't think that children should become accustomed to unnecessary and superfluous things don't train your children to become accustomed to going places that course money they don't need it and you're ruining them in the process train them to take walks they can take walks and get fresh air they could play a little on the street with a ball get some exercise don't take them to concerts I don't believe in that at all I don't believe in taking children to travel don't get them accustomed to luxuries a child should be taught how to live a frugal life and to desire only what is necessary today people are feeding children all kinds of ideas and people think it's normal even to send your daughter to seminary and let's say Gateshead I don't believe in it anymore it's a very good place Gateshead but send your daughter a bar party you should have a Brooklyn they're very good places here don't let you to travel Terry she'll either a man approached me the other day her daughter wants to go to its route she's a firm girl he wants to know what I think about it what does she have to go to her child for it costs a lot of money what does she have to go to it's show an unmarried girl shouldn't waste money on going to its show no I don't believe in these things teacher children to save money don't need it some day a bank account is better than traveling your savings account in the bank teach them to save money for themselves if you want to train them to spend money on unnecessary things no I don't approve of that okay now on the subject of how much seminaries cost I got a number of responses from people who are working in seminaries and one person who has been working in seminaries for a long time wrote a very long letter discussing whether or not it's a what I said is that their money-making institutions that that he took issue with that the fact is that virtually every single seminary without exception including BJJ which goes down to as low as ten thousand dollars for some students give scholarships some are better about it than others but all of them give scholarships and scholarships can be quite hefty you can safely assume that if the sticker price is twenty four thousand the seminary will average 19 thousand dollars a student there are many seminaries that average less the reason is that there are far more seminaries and slots than there are girls and they must fill up or they will lose a lot of money whereas it used to be between ten or fifteen seminaries there are now over thirty and the number of girls has not doubled seminaries are forced to scramble and outbid one another especially for the star students who are considered drawers and bring their friends another point to note the course of educating a student in seminary is excessively expensive far more than a similar type of educational offering in the u.s. the salary of teachers is not reflective of the full cost because I mentioned that the teachers don't get paid much there are multiple reasons for this among them are one no government grants two no lunch program three they need to feed house and educate is far greater than just educating tío limit sublet cinema prohibitively expensive five the monthly bill for hot water alone is unfathomable I have eight daughters I can testify six the rate of unpaid tuition for seminary is quite hard you mentioned you've been approached by people who sort to open seminaries as an investment please let them know it is a very poor investment there are far better ways make money this is a common fallacy that seminaries and money machines it's hardly the case you reference anecdotal evidence where I have first-hand experience so I heard from a number of people who are in seminaries who took exception with that particular position and I share their thoughts with you so we talked about a lot of different choices we talked about whether you should go to seminary at all if you do should you go to seminary in Israel should you find a place that's only going to echo what your values are or that's going to challenge your values we talked about whether you're just going to go with your friends go we talked about the the financial pressures we talked about the academics whether or not it's worthwhile we talked about a lot of other points that we really I really tried to hit on at the end of the day if you wanted me to say go to seminary X I did not and I will not because a seminary is like a shell if you're looking for a school you have to find the right school I heard a story a long time ago with the a go W cell and this book who was trying to decide between T Shiva's so he says sit in the basement of each one and learn for now and see where you feel you're getting more Tyra because every issue is at Sonora it's a pipe bringing down the tire from Sherman and not every every pipe can attach itself to each one there are different size pipes and different size you know connections see which connection feels better for you and so other people who come in and waste their time and seminary yes are there people who come and do not grow yes is the converse true as well yes and so if you're just going because everybody goes doesn't really matter go where your friends go if you're looking for the place that is that scene or that is going to give you as one of our listeners wrote give you the foundation to your trajectory in life and to be able to give you the strength to be able to maintain yourself and all of the daily struggles then you have to look at what the seminary is offering it where it comes from and I want to end with one email that I found particularly poignant and why we'll be clear in a minute but nonetheless I will reiterate with the parts that had meaning to me my wife did not go to summer in Israel she decided not to go because she did not want to do it to her mother her parents our Bali chuva and her mother is very anxious her mother was nervous about the expense saying she didn't realize why she needed to go an addition a friend of theirs had just lost their daughter in the sbarro bombing and her mother was scared to send her daughter to Israel my wife had a teacher who offered to call her mother and pressure her to send her to Israel but she turned it down instead she opted to go to seminary in America and go to Israel and birthright however it has been many long years of seeing her other two siblings going to Israel for several years a piece she also knows of the case of someone who pressured her parents into sending her and threatened to run away from home unless she could go back for a second year she went back for a second year and is living there now my parents seemed to have gotten over it it has nagged my wife wondering if she made the right decision probably her mother would have gotten over it and she lost out on a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity she should she have made the decision she made you mentioned many go to seminary because of Shido him I can tell you that her not going to seminary was a red flag and the first question I asked when looking into her it was hard for me to decide to go out when I myself loved Eretz fell and had it's odd to stay and I'm still looking into returning after raising my kids in the States when I asked when the date why she didn't go and she told me the reason I saw it as a tremendous milah not ok Suren tremendous advantage not a negative when I realized what she got out of that Bri trip to Israel and the filling of kedusha and that she wanted the condition our home no matter what I was hooked she wasn't as a very special person had the right goals and that for me beat a year of quote life-altering experiences and when we finally made it for a brief trip a few years into our marriage I cannot begin to tell you how special was I'm not asking you to confirm that she made the right decision because you probably can't do that without knowing the entire case however it would be meaningful for me and a boost for her if you would mention her story and build up the my love what she did perhaps it could fight the stigma of those who can't go and maybe encourage guys to look beyond that when looking into a girl am I supposed to condemn someone who did not threaten to run away from home unless their parents gave them what they wanted I've toured in a number of institutions geared for belly chuhwa and a guy wanted to go to Israel or stay for a second year or and not go to college and stay learning and occasionally that parents would say it's your life and you have to make your own decisions but I'm not giving you I'm not paying your tuition or your learning expenses and they were very indignant at me and I said your parents also have a right to make decisions based on what they think is right not just you you're not entitled to their money and so if they say you can make whatever choice you want and we'll even support you emotionally but you can't tell me I have to pay for something I don't believe in and if a person feels like I don't have the money to send my kid to Israel as I mentioned earlier do I have to put myself into debt whether or not the seminaries are in a position to offer a scholarship or not is irrelevant but if I is it my parents say I don't have the money for it or perhaps they don't feel it's necessary do they have to pay for it I don't know the story it's true it could be that for this girl it was hot Souls Natasha's for her to go and learn a night selling a seminary maybe doesn't sound that way from the letter what am I supposed to condemn a girl who decides not to go to seminary so as not to hurt her mother or to put her parents in a difficult financial situation I told the story I told the story about a couple who was being supported here and there it's shown for years a very fine style when they came back to America he wanted to go to law school and and why you what his father would pay for it the fund was said listen I can't afford NY you want to go to a state school I could pay for that and they broke off contact with the parents listen to me closely ok there is never excuse for a child to break off relations with their parents never its richest richest is this sometimes a toxic environment where somebody's a molester and I'm afraid he's going to attack me or my children yeah we mean you you know Ben Shapiro always points out that when there's an argument about abortion so they say so you're saying that a girl who is raped you know is forced to have that child so he says ok so is that what we're talking about case of rape no why would you bring a far-out case when you know that that's not the average case the average case is based on convenience I'm not ready to have a baby now maybe economically is not there so you just want the right to be able to kill babies yeah so you'll come up with a case that people can you know when I was teaching once so I couldn't make a particular class was a family class and those fellow there was a reformed rabbinical student and they were talking about how you know certain laws of of Tyrus mishpocha when a husband and wife are not allowed to have physical contact you know and one of them is during the week of mourning so he says so you were telling me that if me and my wife was sitting there and our child runs into traffic gets hit by a car and get killed in front of our eyes I can't hold my wife and comfort her yeah that happens all the time that's the most common thank you for bringing that point on yeah the only thing exceptions prove is that they're exceptions it's not them it's not the norm it's not the normal situation yeah so if it is is there a situation I'm gonna break over to my parents I'm gonna threaten to run away from home for what they won't give me what I want give me what I want I'm gonna run away from home gimme gimme-gimme-gimme that's the worst that's just the worst so what can you do it's my father was show them used to say takes all kinds of people to make a world and I'll tell you something all right my my father passed away and I speak very often about my father and his many accomplishments and things and I come to my brother's feel like I'm totally out to lunch you don't remember the end of this there did that bed that this I said of course I remember it I just don't choose to focus on that because he's done so much good in his life yeah is are there times when I look back and I say well that was that was rough sure sure yeah well my kids complain about me I said well you don't even know but but I look back in my life and and my regret is that I wasn't a better son because because my parents were good people yeah do they make mistakes do they do things wrong of course my wife married the last perfect person that's it there are no more so your parents won't send you the seminary so you're threatening right away from home you gotta pressure them you're gonna force them I can't tell you how many times that I had electric issues when I was growing up and I'd go to the Rebbe on him hush for people and they always tried to find some whale how we could work it out so it's not to hurt my parents so do I think that this person did the right thing at first blush yeah I would say yes and halav I more of us put more focus on our concern for our parents concerned for us being people as opposed to us getting what we want and that I hope will conclude our series on seminaries unless I get like a really really juicy yeah I'm not expecting one because I think we you know boy let's beat a dead horse yeah just you know I got these are some of the papers and that's it for this week so if you want to find out more about the show go to reverie Alaska calm you can make comments you can see my upcoming schedule contact me directly you can find that about my new live Shira which hopefully will be starting next week go to every Alaska dot-com slash live I'm starting a Duff yummy shear and I'm starting to miss Osie sharm share and it will be interactive you will see me and I will see you so you know you better you better put yourself together before you call me up that's on me to say cuz if we learned what they were this podcast I have no filter and that's it if you want to sponsor an episode a really low and then if you want a sponsor episode go to every lousy that come slash sponsor and that's it for this week I'm Deborah Orlowski and this is the referee Olaf's Keisha it's the rabbi over laughs to show Turin simpler ready to go the rabbi Orlovsky show knowledge and wisdom 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