72: "There's Nothing Everybody Should Do", with R' Nosson Geisler

hi this is Deborah Lasky and welcome to the Avalon ski show it's the rabbi over loves to show Torah and simpler ready to go and whether you're listening on tour anytime or wherever you listen to what your podcast was so excited to have you along this week we are sponsored by a good friend of our family Nami Resnick who is sponsoring it in honor of her grand father's yurt site Burke Shimon Ben C pura liebe and he she writes he would have liked your brutal honesty well that is of course the theme that we have been dealing with these pests member shows and that is the American seminary experience and we've spoken for different aspects of it thus far and I I felt like listen I have taught in seminaries and I obviously have a lot of opinions and everything even what I haven't done I'm more than and happy to look for my opinions sometimes before I ask but they say what topics can you speak about I said anything you want I have no problem I'll talk about anything you want so but I figured maybe we should have somebody who actually knows something so I looked around with my knowledge and experience remember that I made alia in 1988 and gave me an opportunity to see a little bit about the seminary experience and there is one person who has been a legend in the field for many many years and that is of course rubric iyslah who is wish with me today on the show all right guys it's a pleasure to have you with us thank you pleasure to be here and we'll just get a little background you can't tear it straw before the Six Day War and you've been there ever since no no no in 1971 and 72 I was learning there was came to edge so I was learning and I got sick when I left him well I know and I returned to the States until I got better turned out to be 12 years right now I was better before I understand yeah I said that so and then I then we moved to Cairo and until a few years ago I retired again because of a health issue I was involved in seminaries at the vena cava my load first and then ultimately be no Slava as well right after that and actually my aunt Vera first before that right some haunt Vera was was part of the bay at that point yeah and then they they broke off in the round yeah eventually they closed up and then Binoche cava basically filled that space in the vague the vague you stay have a whole series of base Yoko's or actually they had a whole series of what kinds of school that's right for they were basically full service they could take you from a beginning beginner you know just walking in the door with piercings all the way to the finest base Yoko's so for knows cava filled that that gap there and so what year did you take that over that's it's it's nothing let's say it's 32 years now that you had since I went from then to retirement was that makes it that's when I came now when I came I mean everybody knew that but knows Havel was the gold standard in the basic of world and you know I give a lot of thought because I wanted to find somebody who had your level of experience and at the same time doesn't still have you know a horse in the in the race so now that you're retired I forget you can TOEIC safely about anybody you want it's just me and you I know ten fifteen thousand other people is thinking so so when you envisioned this how did you envision what a seminary for an American Girl commentary so should be a few a few things well actually I wouldn't say that I wouldn't say that I envision excuse me what a seminary should be as a I really envisioned what a girl would want from the seminary uh-huh that's how I would say that's watch now the what you would want but what would be the most valuable thing for the get from a seminary right that was that was the basis of my Foreman I was I never been on Shabbat never had complete jurisdiction over those have had co-principal Abramoff for her shame all the time and in my load and missus Geisler I always had very very good partners that was part of my thinking and strategy right of running something so what was the vision all right I'm saying girls coming to herself what should her experience be okay so it should be an experience that a she gains some level of independence from her family some level which changed as for example cell phones as technology changed in terms of the frequency that they were in communication but if it impacted but there is still the idea that she could gain some sort of independent identity find out a little bit about who she is or she wants to be in what she wants to strive for that was one of the things the second thing is that they would gain in the depth of Tara knowledge hopefully in the breadth of Tara knowledge as well but more important to me was the depth of Tara knowledge in other words to learn through even though there's no he taught matera for the young lady but to learn to think like a Jew is very important for everybody's mother and this is a person who's gonna be selling Jewish kids mother and to think Jewish and understand Jewish and love Jewish as a year this was very very crucial and the way that could be accomplished was to expose them to some ideas that actually were not the common thinking of a Western young lady and the girls came to us they were english-speaking so they came from South Africa from England from the states from Canada pretty much of course that girls came from Mexico but that's very pretty much they came from most now most of these girls were gonna go on to university many of them were gonna volunteer program I would say most yes so I so this certainly and this one somebody actually wrote me in and said listen girl who's gonna go to university and is going to see secular knowledge on a deep level has to see Tyra on a deep level that's great if a girl if you were doing the girls who were not gonna go on to university would you say that that was still important yes I thought say it important I'll tell you this way I have a cousin in America a well-known family they are the only things stemmed from a soccer branch of family they're not south merciful and and he told me that I am NOT going to send my daughter to seminary my mother didn't go to seminary and my grandmother didn't go sit I asked him he said daughter gonna go to college he said I think you have to your mother didn't do that the grandmother didn't do that you better send your daughter to seminary so so you wanted to give them Torah on a higher level and give them independence what else did you have other goals that you yeah the most important goal I would think is the way they relate to the other people kindness goodness and the character traits that could be developed while they have this year or they're away from their family and they don't have the safety and the familiarity of their family and they're dealing with different people who come from different backgrounds how they deal with that that may have more to do to make a dolt woman successful as a Jewish mother and wife then and all the learning and that's a crucial thing and a good high school in America couldn't did it they could they surely could that and and and I'm saying all these girls like the girl have to come to seminary in order to accomplish this oh she does not have to come to seminary no she doesn't have to but it's a big help right so so this is 32 years ago when you start right and you left working there how long ago three years three years ago so what changed in those thirty years you saw a girl coming in your last year and you compared to a girl who is coming thirty years before right what's the contrast large number countries first of all I changed different noise right is later but the girls they they changed as I said they're much more in touch with each other much more involved with atronics and and death and all of those things the bifurcation II this the separation of different classification of girls was far more marked in those they were they were pre-packaged as certain candidates and in certain ways that weren't so obvious before it wasn't like that there was much more gray area for people to decide what they wanted to do and it was great pressure on parents as it continued there was a greater pressure on parents to send their kids many times against their will whereas let's say 32 years ago what percentage of high school graduates from a base Jakov went there itself that don't depend if it was a non New York place that was a far higher percentage almost almost 90 percent Wow really in the out of town plate what they call out of that one I recall the story the shock of the base yakov convention that took place in Montreal right and I think was a realized to stock then got up and said all the in town girls should stay here and all the New York girls set that's what happened so I you know the identity of so basic of that was much more a seminary was much more made up on out-of-towners than New Yorkers know there's such a large proportion of young students it's so outweighs it it's eighty percent probably really so even though 90 percent of the out-of-town busy oculus made up 20% of the salmon population right Wow something like that one day the third we always favor those girls and the reason was not because we favor those girls qualitatively or any other reason for the sake of the New York girls it was very important for them to beat and interface with these girls I thought they thought it was for the other girls to meet them but we thought the other way at least I did 32 years ago so this Bono's cava there's BJJ you're heard of that one yeah yeah when I heard and of course you said we're the imprimatur I think BJJ was something else anyway it's it's a different Schmidt I think but we had many girls who are and when we started right what in choosing between those two seven right well that's I'm saying how many other play how many other basic lack of choices whether it was miss Lala that wasn't the best shock of choice but it wasn't a non-base yeah yeah always a base outcome population that way that's right and there were a few other seminaries still around so there weren't much for gonna choose today there are 25 tables any amount the population is as much is it that the population is that much larger or the percentage you who feel they have to come to it cells no no I think it's population just it just keeps growing yeah Savannah there's always need for more schools simply because then the market keeps growing here's the pitfall of that both in the states that I've seen pan here people could think that doing great as educators because people are clamoring to come in that's because of the numbers not because to do anything great necessarily it's not a qualitative issue so someone can think he's doing great in his school in the neighborhood school because everyone wants to get in there but the reason is because there's no slamming of space so it's not a quality doesn't prove you've done anything yet so now thousands of American seminary girls come into a Shalom every year can they still get the usual arm experience that you could give them 32 years ago no I don't think you'd get the same experience I don't think you shall I'm experienced is an experience you get by coming together with your friends and flocking together you get exposed to some things that you never saw before but and you see them but you see them through a group vision eyes of many people and of course of course if you'd asked a young lady would you come Terrace row if you were the only girl United States the answers gonna be no if she's healthy she's gonna say no but he knows so when she's coming territory so she's not coming tired since well that's Robinson Crusoe you know when she's like how to the discovered so she's coming with a safety of her net of grow a group hopefully wonderful young ladies with many of the same objectives many the same objectives and the same yes are you know the same things that kids want to do they have those things and it's a camp it can be perceived as a dormitory camp experience as soon as they get there all right so there has to be some way of letting them know that it's not a camp experience which is academics right and the pressure of academics is crucial for them not to feel that they're in a camp experience that's now here's what's interesting let's say a girl's not planning going to college and she fails all for this what happens you know you know yeah but no but it's not only because of getting into college although that was a big part of it I think if if academics are taught correctly you do develop an appetite for knowledge that's one of the jobs of the education not just to hold a thing a carrot or a stick but to actually develop a curiosity an actual that in order to do that you have to allow people to ask questions not be intimidated by their questions and be openly answer questions one of the Cheetahs I had as a teacher was like this if you say I don't know so we applaud whenever you say I don't know we applaud I explained to them I'm the teacher this is music to my ears when you don't know I have a chance to teach you something right okay when the teacher says I don't know we got standing ovations now the girls have to write these reports whatever happens to these read and then they filed they actually filed yeah so we have these reports all we give them back yeah and anybody ever do anything with them it mattered to them they learned a lot from those reports well that was just the plea to be able to do the research yes nothing but it's more it gave them a sense of it depends how they did it this is they had a brother or father who was smart enough to help them hmm so they messed up a little bit with that and it was obvious you could tell but when they did it themselves they actually got an excitement of discovery and learning that happened it doesn't matter the quality just the fact that they could ask this question and see three different answers and discuss how they those in answers impacted on that this theme that they wanted this is a way to learn it that's all it was and there was there was people who put work into this got very very good results from that okay here's a girl now and some in high school and there are over 20 basic of choices for her to make and that's how this started because the girl says how do I choose so how does a girl choose where to go based on what and was what questions are she is she supposed to be asking because I was once at an Israel night I was representing a school boy school and everybody got up and said the same thing we're warm we're this were intellectual with it everybody's at the exception of a mashaallah except for innovate CEO and everybody said this is what we are I remember when my time got up I said you know I remember when I was dating nobody ever said I have a perfect girl for you she's she's boring she's unattractive that they never said that I went out with girls like that but they never told me that beforehand they always say she's wonderful she's smart so I said every school is gonna tell you the same thing but it's not always true so how does it girl go and look at these brochures which all the same thing a girl sitting in a desk you know this because we never recruited right they never did it I never I never tried to get a girl to come to us so how many schools today can actually do that I think what schools can do that without recruiting where they say you're going to recruit no I'm going to interview right right so it was a selective process but I wasn't I wasn't going to call I'll tell you my son here was about to be a candidate to go to what's called here do you Sheila katana hmm and it's more or less high school high school age right I forget so a friend of mine who has it was a Russian Shiva asked if you can come and talk to my son in my house and he came to my house to talk to my son and when he finished talking to my son he said to me so what do you think and I said look he'll choose what he wants to choose that's my philosophy but if he asks me I will definitely tell him not to go to your shoe so I said why would you do that I said I don't want my son to be learning by Russia she who came to him in my house I wonder so I don't believe in that right the problem is that you know if you I know Russia she have a big come to their coming that's what they do they run around after 8th grade boys and begged them to please come to the machine I don't think this is a good thing for cover that I write for them for that sense into teaching or for the boy it's not a good thing not a good thing and it's probably not the best sales tactic right as a sales tactical so even if you're effective salesman you much better with a negative sale that would have positive sale hmm represent David can prove that yeah well then I'm feeling fair because she was there before everybody came and she established a certain standard and you know right but I'm saying so ever buddy else comes and you know I mean at the beginning they used to compare themselves to BJJ you know I mean so that was but BJJ was BJJ didn't have to say anything so but twenty-five people come to interview not to recruit they come to your school they're gonna tell you about why their school is such a wonderful school and now a girl has heard twenty-five different people like how does she decide where to go wish it depends what she wants she has to know for herself hopefully usually in schools this somebody is signed to direct them right homeless people have biases maybe I don't know I don't know enough about them to say I'd like that in people so everybody has definition any bias maestro class but but that's not the issue the issue is they you want to help a girl make a decision you have to ask her what she wants to get out of this now so now usually she's not gonna say the truth right that's the problem she's not gonna say she's gonna say something canned as the interview so it's a good Shiva the interview is says something candid she says something can it's like those things it's that is that it is that looking so much in the face Yaakov seminaries but in the the other seminaries you know there's a standard line they all use cuz I'm looking for a place where I can grow so act like the twelfth girl said that because why was from with you now this is like nothing then what do you want to grow but I don't think it a base Jakob that that that's what they're saying they walk in and say I'm looking to grow during this year yeah that's the line they say look grow is a is it is it cleansed way I'm saying I want to change you don't want to say I want to change right so grow is you know I mean I've been growing for years now and it's it's obvious haha what a present comes in a there's certain basic outcomes where they say we're here to give the girls you know you're a nerd straw in a year of learning we're not looking to change their lives right you know right so then when a girl says I'm coming to grow it's it's not gonna you know that and fit the bill of what the base act look so here's how it started it started with girl wrote a question and said okay I want to learn I married tomorrow marry a guy who's gonna learn in color for a few years but not like forever and right now I don't have a smartphone but I might later on in life when I have a smartphone and I don't want to go to a seminary where they're gonna make me feel bad for those choices for which part of the choices don't feel bad but to tell me that if I don't marry somebody who's learning forever then I'm doing the wrong thing and if they tell me you're not allowed to have a smartphone ever you know or things like this then I'm gonna feel like I'm a bad person even though I'm doing more or less what my family does my family standards and you know I've had girls who said to me I don't need a rabbit I have my father and he asks his Rebbe and when I get married my husband is his Rebbe I don't need anybody who would direct me you know it's I don't need to go to seminary to get her hydroxide and get you know so is that the right approach so she find there's a seminary head says that she wants to hear there's a certain bravery and heroism say listen I've been supported by my parents till now I'll marry a husband was going to support me and I'll continue with my life right they're nervous I'm going to be supported by the rest of my life there's something that I'm ready to be supportive yeah but my point is that there is no sense of independent yearning for anything in that position it's a legitimate position but it's a position that says I'm willing to have my parents and my in-laws support Cairo for two years and then when after I want my husband to go to work to support right so this is legitimate a person it's been that's there's three human kind and that you've been going on for me for thousands of years right okay but it's not a very committed position to anything and you would want that that would hope that the young lady would want to take a position about Judaism that is based on some commitment to Judaism what exactly that it I remember rubber Epson telling shocking the girls by saying to them look I don't want you to do cute with the girls in the bay because we interface right I don't want you to do that I don't think those girls came here and they chose a level of religious identity that's uncomfortable for them for where they come from you have chosen exactly what makes you comfortable so of the thousands of girls who are coming to learn in seminary of a year it should all of them becoming what everybody should I mean your opinion based on your thirty years of looking of the seminary girls who are coming there's no I would say anything that everybody should do there's no such a thing some people have to escape their families some people need to be with their families some people need to be away from their family and attached to family come back Andrea preciate their family in a different way there's so many different human beings in different positions which we never know what the outside I don't know so if a girl says to you look I'm not looking to grow I'm looking to come back at the end of the year the same way that I left yeah would you tell her to come to seminar I tend to think again about life anybody who wants to come back after he is experienced to something and not be changed has it has a difficulty with the experience and with life it just doesn't work like that whether you like it or not it impacts on you right so so I remember at the airport another rubber Epson telling me that he want he was witnessed this the parents said promise us one thing promise us you won't change now this is an amazing directive to a person you're sending overseas to learn something right how could it be I mean it's just a Torah we're talking about besides but even without that strong without the terror how could it be that his person spends a year in nuclear physics and doesn't change their attitudes about certain things nice skull for climate satire right so it's impossible they're asking an impossible thing so so that's an impossible to measure if she says up front I don't want to change then probably the year not with well no I think it's more important for her to get the idea that she should change so I think it could help her very much I think she's trapped like if she sees that she doesn't want to change it sounds like it's not our message all right so what one thing is she wants to now what if a girl's not academic so she has to pick a school that has a different kind of emphasis then only academics it's the year and as you're still worthwhile for another girl could be for two reasons if the non-academic program what do you mean that she's lacking in what we call IQ is that what you mean um well we can't say that today they are intellectually challenged okay well let's put to waste there are some people who lack the the ability and some people who lack the drive I've had girls who said I don't want to work so hard I want to go and enjoy my urine is like you said camp you know right is it worthwhile for those girls to come to seminary it depends which somebody who wind up in if they wind up with a more academic some really very valuable for them right but the more academic seminary if you have a girl who is a C student and it makes it clear that she's not particularly motivated I'm not up to that probably they're not gonna take off the reason is because she's taking up space of somebody else who can gain much more from the program that I we had each time but there were many many young ladies who were not specifically academically years excuse me but they had they had a certain intellect a certain understanding and they could express this without without any since they weren't headed to any academic career anything they can learn without pressure and they could and and if you can create an atmosphere where the young the girls themselves students are interested in learning so she picks up on some of that because she's socially usually she's social and if the social thing is to be around the learning she she does that and if you could help her by encouraging a gifted student to be with her and get certain things from are that they don't have vice versa you've done a big thing to pick up both people's lives do people's lives if Jan you improved both of their lives relationship you used to give her a public share on Thursday nights yes a lot of people came and at one point someone said you know you never give them iron McComas and he said why he says people are looking up afterwards because really I assume people just came to the show so they could say and she'd of him I go to Russia so somebody wrote to me and said that was a somebody wrote me and said I don't know what you're Hawking everybody four people go to seminary because it's good for she loved him on their resume yeah so if it says listen I don't really care about the whole year in Israel I just need this on my resume yeah so I'm coming for my year in seminary right what do you tell that girl I'm not taking you so don't say that so so so that's not a good enough motivation no it's also not true you can get married its statistics prove you can get married equally well if you stay home there's no problem about that tell me Tori which school just said this is the krita convention is that you can you can get married without going to seminary you know so so that's not a good enough reason yeah okay it's good enough that she's motivated to get married no this is a good thing right the girl in high school who is just a regular girl she doesn't have a blank slate and she says I know everybody goes to Israel is to go to seminary so I also want to go to Israel the seminary so how does she make that decision 25 places to choose from I think the teacher who's involved with guiding girls to go to seminary sit down with her and ask her what could you possibly gain from the forget why you want to go what can you what could you see yourself gaining from the end that you'd be happy coming back with hmm okay once you isolate those that's a hard question for a girl who's not a big thinker who's not a big think of the answer like well everyone's going to Israel miss out that this is after four years of high school yeah the teachers there also should be doing something so you see the MIT question thank somebody right well that's why I'm thinking that if if a high school really provides everything unless it the exceptional girl I don't know why everyone has to go to the seminary in Israel no I don't think everyone has to go to seminary so I think there were there were seminaries in America right it's good it's probably better to go to seminary where you're out of out of your abbot that it just helps you develop so if you're going to Montreal it used to be Java those places they have excellent places I don't think there's a problem with that at all I have no issue with that I think that's a very valuable thing and then there could be a people who Daphna have a special home and have special kids and they want two kids staying home because they have a special clinic to give their children or there are extenuating circumstance at home where the girls needed at home if it's a healthy way it's wonderful if it's an unhealthy way it's the most important girl to get out of the house now the reason you know you've mentioned a few times that you believe that BJJ is the gold standard is David Robertson David is extraordinary a person is an extraordinary person I haven't know her and I find it are there's people like that in the seminary world yes I sir none of our level no my Rebbe over Sean said that she probably was a few doors back my biggest momentous that there's an istake lights off for a long time so do you have a go-to place when a girl wants to come to it so if you say okay BJJ you're not for BJJ then the next best place for you to go is no I have no idea I know he's asked that question Oh glad I came up with something though [Laughter] I don't know that unless I know you might my family my kid you know my these days I think they might ask me and then and just talked about put them in touch with people see you know all the all the basic of summaries in there going on you you know you have any more probably yeah I above that I want to thank every guys that for coming and sharing decades of experience in the seminary world I hope this has been helpful SD and all of the others who have been watching I I noticed that more people have been watching the particular series of talks on seminaries and almost any other topic that we've dealt with us fought and that's it and now I have to make an important announcement and that is that we have had requests for some live-streaming Scheuer what does that mean that means that I give it a few Oh me here in arts gel and people would have to you know get up very early in the morning or stay up in the middle of the night in order to be able to participate so we are just going to start a live document where you can be part of the Shearer and people would ask me why don't you just put them up online I said because what I give a sheer I'm talking to the people in the shoot that's a teaching experience it's a it's a it's a one-on-one experience it's not something that you put out there in the world you can do that with with a talk but you can't do that with with this year so we're gonna be starting a live def yo me it's gonna be starting a week from this Sunday January 12th we hope to do it six days a week and the time will be based on the participants but the idea is that everybody will be able to if you have the right equipment we will be able to see each other and it'll be personal if not you have the option to be able to call in you know there'll be a landline or a kosher phone that you could call in from if you want and that'll be a wonderful thing we will also be starting at that time I'm associate Sharma chef now the DEF yummy will be open only to those of the male persuasion I don't care how you self-identify we're talking about actual a biological male so only logical males are invited to do me but to the Mozilla see shehram those of all genders and those who have difficulty self-identify by all means should participate and what time this will take place will be determined on the subscribers so if you're interested go to remember your Lasky that come / live and that's it for this week if you want to find out more about the show go to review Lasky calm you can add comments see my upcoming events will contact me directly and if you want a sponsor an episode go to Alaska calm / sponsor and that's it for this week I'm Deborah Orlowski and this is the reverie Alaska show tour it's simpler ladies go the rabbi Orlovsky show knowledge of wisdom will help 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