69: Choosing a Seminary (or Yeshiva) Part 3

[Music] hi I'm Deborah Orlowski and welcome to the Raphael our ski show and whether you're watching on tour anytime I have good friends at or any time that come o ever you listen or watch your podcasts we're happy to have you along for another exciting experience yeah as they reveal a ski show only can and in fact that ties into our sponsorship this week which is a memory of Merriam buzz bünyamin from his grandson who's first year so it will be on the 20th of kiss life so this should be an alia finish ABBA and also a shout-out to ninth and 10th graders from the exciting town of Waterbury Connecticut if you haven't been to Waterbury Connecticut wow you are missing out on one of the great treats of a modern Jewish life in America Mary Kaufman started yeshiva there and bit by bit the community grew and I heard from people in the community that even the non-jewish community is so thrilled because they revitalized the entire city it was it was a dead City and and our sponsor who is anonymous apparently drives the ninth and 10th graders to the new yeshiva miss if T is so they had Torah and no good talk Connecticut not easy to say no guitar and it's a 40-minute drive and he says that on this Drive they listen to the podcast and they listen to Sheeran and they drive it's 40 minutes each way 7 o'clock in the morning till 10 o'clock at night what gives them the strength to be able to learn tired of the old days of course listening to my She'arim and podcast and so we want to give them a special shout out to to the guys in Waterbury Connecticut Goga talk probably the only place more exciting than water barriers Naugatuck and what can I tell you boys I say guys should I get learned well and and really do great things and I'm so honored that I have this course to be a part of your day and why can I tell you I guess I guess gonna have to make the podcast more often if we're only doing it once a once a week you've got got all these days driving back and forth I don't know how we're gonna produce enough material anyway we are in the middle of this series I haven't really done a series like this and ever um I gave member mypace awesome pays up program but different aspects obviously pays off but a young lady st wrote in and said could you tell us how to decide how do though choose a seminarian Eretz shell or or as you shiva for that matter it's it's all the same idea and how does one choose so we dealt with a few aspects of this I want to continue along the theme she said the following she says I have certain ideas in life I was like wonder marry a guy who's gonna learn in color for you know a few years but not forever I may one day want to get a smartphone you know we do use technology in our house any kind of phone by the way is technology in case you don't know this before that they use the Telegraph which was also technology before that they used to just write down you know on letters and have them sent on the Pony Express but so she doesn't want a place that's going to to discourage or look down at people who don't marry someone who's gonna go for a very long time long time learning this is a very important aspect there's a lot of aspects that we're in this that I want to talk about but this is one that I have to talk about I have this has gone on for years no it's the issues have changed but the but the idea has gone on for years I heard from somebody years ago they wanted to get their kid into an elementary school and they don't know why you have a TV so of course I told my son in the interview when they asked to say we don't have a TV they make you sign not have a TV that he and he says to me was complaining he says you know sneaky they were they didn't ask do you have a TV they said what do you like to watch on television and that's how they knew we had a TV and the person was upset I said you're a liar and you're upset because the guy caught you that's what you're angry about he says well what does it make I said well why do you want to send your kid to a school that doesn't allow TVs if you want to have a TV go to a school that lets you have a TV he says because they get all the best boys I said they get all the best boys because they come from houses that don't have TVs so why do you want to go to a school where they don't let you have a TV and you want to have a TV um there were people used to take the television outside of the house when they went to the meeting so they could say truthfully we don't have a TV you know somebody told me that in their house the TV was on like a stand and it would sink into the ground when people would come I was like Oh God hi Jackie and I was like you know James Bond you know sinking to the ground and I was always amazed about this attitude why why go to a school that has a standard you don't want to maintain now I had when I was a mush gear I had a boring you Shiva and he wouldn't get up in the morning he wouldn't come to dive earning and go to say their 90 hung out in town I set him this is the wrong eeschema for you you belong in yeshiva X and he said to me well I don't want to go there it's a bum place I said I know but you're a bum you know you don't Davin you don't think you should be in a bum place he says no I don't want to go to a place like that I said I you want to go to yeshiva that's good that's filled with good guys so you can be the bum that's right so I don't want to be surrounded by bums I don't want to not be a bum and I'm always amazed by this and I used to tell my children all the time I'm here energized from they have this in America as well that when you go to a particular school they have a tacher known list of rules that you have to sign and and there were times that my kids were not prepared to follow through on what these demands were and they said to me above all what should I do I said if a school has a standard that you don't believe in then don't go to that school go to a school that reflects your values and they said to me but none of the girls keep these rules and they all sign it so why do I have to be the only one who has to tell the truth I see a problem now why do we create a set of rules that nobody's going to follow and we don't even expect anybody to follow and we don't even go through with it but okay this is a phenomena yeah the famous quote from Groucho Marx where he would say I would never join any club that would have me as a member and a lot of people say the same thing if you starting Eva for B students so you get D students if you want to get be students into cinnamon taste do it I'm an a you and the amazing thing you have to yet cuz ever wants to go where they can't get into I heard a story that when they started to ship on a they didn't have a registration so the Punisher of took out ads and all the front papers registration is closed we don't have any more spots and so everybody said coin for taxi I want to get this kid in I want to get that one I don't know I don't have any room and IRA better day huh cuz once I can't get in I want to go there's a certain mentality and people people don't even care if they want to go there or if the education is on the level that they want there's this idea of I want to go to that place cuz has the best reputation so now listen to a story I meet a fellow and he says to me which high schools you grow in I tell him the high school so he says why there I said it's a warm atmosphere they work with the girls the people smile it's a positive thing etc and he looks at me and he says I wish that I had the courage that you have I said what do you mean he says I was able to get my daughter into what's considered the best high school even though I don't like it even though I don't believe in it even though I'd rather send her to the school that you're going to but I could get into the best place why wouldn't I go you have a attitude everyone wants to go to the best place I remember when my kids were little there was some sort of thing we were talking about with somebody about doing something whatever and they said you know could affect you later and she took him don't you want your daughter to marry the best guy in burnovich and I said no I want my daughter to marry the man who's gonna be the best husband and father I'm looking for a crush of a son-in-law what I've got to yeshiva to leave him yeah I'm a speaker if he knows how to tell some funny stories I'll get him a gig you know but but that's about it there are so many people who want to make the best off they want to get into the best school and even if this I was trying to start high school at one point I couldn't I couldn't make it happen but I'll try started girls high school here in Israel and and I spoke to parents and I told them what my vision was and they said that's great I would love that for my daughter and I said so would you send her and they said yeah if I can't get her into anyplace else because I'd rather and this is what one parent said to me but p'malee I'd rather send my daughter to a school that will turn her or from Judaism but we'll be better for she'd of him then the center for some place where she'll be happy so I'm looking to seminary and I say okay this seminary or this yeshiva does not reflect my values so why would I go there so I'll tell you why it's really very simple I'll go there and ignore what they're saying but why are you going to a school that you're starting off and you don't believe in it I I've been teaching miss Ilsa sharm for over 30 years and the girl says oh we have miss Ilsa sharm and our seminary I said really where you up to we're still in the hog dumber I said wow it was really being my in in it what have you taken away from mr. Sharma you have to marry you born learning said you know I've been teaching my solution for many years I never saw that well where is that line exactly cuz I don't remember seeing that line this is this is this is the only message mrs. tishell Rebecca Shapiro said once he made a can knock and he made fun of the fact that basically only girls learned knocking guys don't really learn not so much for those who are not familiar with the terminology you know in the Bible general the Bible we call in Hebrew the Tanakh it's made up of three parts the Turin the VM and Subin the Torah are the five books of Moses you know we also call the hummus from the word himesh or in Hebrew Penta talked from the word Penta which is five and tuck which is [Music] Torah and and then they were the books of the prophets and then there are the books of the szubin the writings and so what's called na which are the last two sections well girls tend to learn that boys don't really do that so much you know if they come across the puss it's cuz the Gemara brought it down someplace and they had to had to dash in it but so relationship ER was giving shear and he brings a puss it from than the beam and he says what is this buzick teach us and he says well basically girls are the ones who learn Navi so what this puss ik is teaching us is you have to wear stockings because every puss ik and Navi teaches us that you have to wear stockings and yet there might be a bigger idea here because you know what's what is the message on life that I'm trying to bring across through this through the shear through this idea and and when I was I was in a during the seminar once and the girl says you know goes well I feel like this other seminar is more intellectual and I said you have to define intellectual for me because I'm gonna make an intellectual hug Dora for you there's a difference between intellectual and academic if I give you a lot of work to do that's not intellectual that's just keeping you busy and there are many seminaries and Israel where they give a girl's an enormous amount of work and I ask somebody once why do you give them so much work and they said keeps them out of trouble now that's the educational message keep them busy so they stay out of trouble there's something to be said for that right so I said that's not called intellectual intellectual is making a person think asking the questions of life and people don't like that people don't want those kind of questions people people want not to have to think too deeply on a particular subject I'll give you an example I was doing a question and answer at a particular base Jannik of seminary night's show and and I said you know we have to try to understand the basic issues of Judaism how to answer them since one girl said you shouldn't answer questions it takes away from your Emunah Sciuto simple faith if you're not familiar with the term simple faith there is a kind of a moon up shootin I said so you define a moon up shooter as believing in something that might make no sense and never questioning it and the girl said yes I said then you will never have the Emunah pursuit of a Mormon now there any Mormons watching out here I don't mean to be offensive so don't want to offend anybody but I'm going to give you my understanding the Church of the latter-day saints their beliefs I may get some of this wrong I stayed once in Marriott who is a Mormon and they put a book of the Mormons in the drawer there instead of a Gideon Bible so I read a little bit of it so I have a little bit of an understanding and I might be getting some of this wrong but i'ma try the best I can to be accurate Joseph Smith who had been convicted in the past for fraud that's not in the book of the Mormons but you can you can look that part up claims that an angel took him to a mountain in upstate New York where he dug up golden plates that had been buried 1,900 years earlier by Jesus yashka evidently after the resurrection and going straight to heaven went to upstate New York and it's always nice that time of year and he buried these golden plates and the angel took him to the place and dug up the golden plates now in the book of the Mormons I this I read the book came on a number of family members testify that they were allowed to feel the golden plates under a cloth they couldn't see them but they did feel them under a cloth and after Joseph Smith transcribed them the angel took him away which is too bad because I think is a piece of evidence that would have been tremendous but okay and so he gathers together his followers mostly women to begin their journey to the Pacific Ocean and as they pass through towns they gained adherents and also there were people who were very angry with them and eventually Joseph Smith was killed by an angry mob and his student Brigham Young took over and continued the journey until they arrived at the Pacific Ocean and they gave thanks to God for bringing them to the Pacific Ocean which through poor planning was in fact the Great Salt Lake in Utah and they allowed polygamy because they had so many women not enough men so they allowed you to marry more than one wife and eventually community grew Utah developed and they wanted to enter the United States as a state and they said you can't because you allow polygamy now one of the things about the Mormon Church is that the head of the church has a direct line to God and can every now and then get prophecy and God came to him and said that we want you now to outlaw polygamy and you have to admit the timing is what made this particularly miraculous because V had come to them in a different time before the United States demanded that they are Lord I don't know that it would add this impact but it was just then that God told him to out work and by the way this continues down to a very day so at some point Brigham Young University did not allow in black students and the college basketball league was basically banned them from playing and God came to the head of the Mormon Church and told him that they should now allow in plexins now to a cynic you might think he just made that up but if you are if you have that level of faith you understand that God revealed this to him now that's pretty amazing that's pretty tremendous so okay so so that's a motive shooter so one of my kids was in high school I always tell my children whatever you hear in the house don't share it with the general public because most people can't handle it my kids teachers either love them or hated them depending on whether or not they were very smart or not you know my children are very smart and you know we answer questions in my house and we deal with issues and so my kids are really rather well first I was one time a yeshiva student asked one of my kids to switch seats on the plane he was sitting next to these two women and asked if I was would change seats she agreed and turned out these two women were missionaries and they spent the flight trying to convert my daughter I really felt bad for them at the end I mean she had them ready to come home for Shabbos you know I mean like yeah you know anyway so it was before Konica and the teacher said the difference between the Greeks and the Jews is that the Greeks everything has to be logical it has to make sense we just believed so my daughter said you mean when naive would just believe what anybody says so teacher says well you know it says we stood at her seen eye and said nice and Anisha will do whatever you say my daughter said that was after UT as much right the exodus the ten plagues Chris yeah I'm soothe the splitting of the Red Sea the Mun had fallen from the sky they heard God speaking at Mount Sinai they had what to base it on it wasn't just someone came to them and said will you believe anything I tell you and this teacher to a tremendous credit said you're right you're right can't just believe something you have to look into it so intellectual intellectual is not academic academic is I give you lots of sources to prepare to write a report on it to jot it down intellectual is where I ask you to ask basic questions about your life and that of a place wants you to do that in fact many places though I know certain high schools in America where they said we don't want the girls to answer ask questions because it's just gonna cause problems adjustably don't ask any questions don't say just just believe just believe what happens when these girls go out into the world and they get a job and people ask them questions and they start thinking how many times have I had from people I was once at a project inspired convention and and I was sitting at a table with people from Borough Park Lakewood you know like well Columbus I see them yeah and they were peppering me with questions and I took a look and all the other faculty members were all sitting at the table like you know sharing trade stories and I'm working through the Mail's here you know so I said how come I'm sitting over there they said you were requested because these are from people who grew up from and no one ever answered their questions I don't know where they do what they do I had a very nice time don't get me wrong I enjoyed it very much but but but I just thought was interesting that I was requested why because I used to write a column for kind of an AMA dia and and people used to write in specific questions and issues for me to deal with and I said listen there are other people who write for the paper while you're writing to me and they say cuz everyone knows that you deal with the real issues no you'll you'll address the the elephant in the room and I will yeah well I'm not afraid I'm happy to talk about issues so when you're when you're looking for a place are you looking for a place that's intellectual are you looking for a place that's academic or you're looking for a place that's not academic so there are certain seminaries which unknown not to be academic they don't put they don't put demands on you there are certain girls who prefer to go there either because they don't feel they have the ability to keep up with the academic level or they don't want to you don't want to be the question is the the the rigors of that type of work that you're asking girls to do what's the end result if you remember I said this all the way at the beginning when you're deciding to go to seminary ask yourself why am I going to seminary what is there that I hope to gain what is it that I want to accomplish and if you look across the intellectual study and you say I would like to become a Torah scholar I was I asked the seminary once I said what would you consider the biggest success a girl who at the end of your seminary ends up writing the definitive parish entre asar or a woman who gets married and boy learns she supports her husband she raises a toga home she brings up her children which is the business success and and they they said for sure the second one I said so is your education designed to produce that girl or to produce the intellectual who's going to write lots of reports how many reports do you have to write and and what's the point of it so if I look at a seminary and I say they don't share my values in life but it's got a great reputation I'll be good she doe him my friends are going it's it's a you know they get the best girls whatever the freshman is but they're gonna be telling you things that are against what your personal belief system is now it's not a problem for most girls cuz most girls don't know what their belief system is and I've had girls who said to me I don't have to know how my belief system is yeah I don't need a Rebbe if I have a question is my father my father goes and asks is does turret and I'll get married my husband is my husband but hey what is Rebbe says and that's why would I don't need a Rebbe I don't know anybody give me direction in life or what for okay so you have to sit down then beforehand and decide what are your family values now listen very carefully I'm going to say but if Destler says we clap plate on onion Kippur you know as a pun McShea or if lamella for necklace I'm looking a little careless saying that said the chemo an act of Aloha Tonto we are not so brazen-faced we're so stubborn to say we've never sinned of or knock Aliyeva say no Hatano we and our fathers have sinned what are you dragging your father's in for and the answer is because we tend to follow what our family does without asking any questions and our family we do that that's what we do in our family and when people say this we'll be doing our family okay but is that the right thing the famous story where and mtj i said when the boys start off learning why do we teach them you know but Mencia a limit see is why don't we start off by teaching them bras something that's more halal a miser is that what feels a shock so the answer of my sure gave a magician feinstein gave was because when a kid starts learning you have to teach them about life and that is if you find something that doesn't belong to you give it back but he told afterwards the real reason he says i'm gonna start with feels for chakra they're gonna learn to something called soaps man krishna so smart Fela and they're gonna realize that their father doesn't keep it I'm gonna create tension for these kids we're not so Mach bid on that is it the hollow who is it not the halacha so are you willing to get exposed to certain ideas now they may take or they may not take my parent was complained to me my son came home from yeshiva and he's so far front he won't do this he won't do that I said stay calm it's just a phase he'll it'll wear off and then he'll become just like you and not care about anything I've said this more than one sometimes parents get upset at me sometimes are like oh good so do you want some place so I I'm only going to go to a you shave or a seminary that I know is going to tell me what I already want to hear the people hire rabbis that way yeah there was a synagogue where they fired the rabbi because he was too old this was if the three years he says that they think I was gonna get younger he says and if I'm much older maybe because of them they aged me but they sent around a questionnaire they were numbered and they were supposed to be returned and no one was supposed to know about this but somebody in the show was outraged and sent me a copy do you want the rabbi to a raise Mejia be lower the mojitos II keep it the way it is do you want the rabbi his wife to a cover a hair be that cover here see you cover it a little bit which schools can the rabbi send his kids to and down the line and I said you don't need a rabbi you need an actor with a deep baritone voice and he'll get up and say whatever is you wanted to say cuz if I you only want to go to an echo chamber I only want to go someplace where they're gonna say now okay III agree this can be very difficult I am intellectually curious I talk to Jews I took two non Jews I took two reformed Jews I talk to conservative Jews I talk to Christians Catholics Protestants Muslims atheists I want to understand what their position is because I'm very curious I want to understand what people are saying what they're thinking and it's a little scary to me that I know more about Christianity than most Christians have spoken to I certainly know more about conservative judaism the most conservative Jews it's an amazing thing to me that people people don't don't know what they're saying but they want to make sure that they're not shaken up I was teaching at the seminary miss Ilsa Sharon my second or third year this girl comes to me after first semester and she says when I came here this year I had my whole life planned out I knew what kind of guy was gonna marry I knew where I was gonna live I know what kind of shape though I was gonna wear I had my whole life worked out and now after one semester of this course I'm disgusted by the person I almost became then she pauses and says and the odds are I'm probably gonna do it anyway because everyone does what everyone does cuz that's what everyone does but there was one year a lot of girls dropped out at the first semester but I said every year some could drop out but a lot of girls dropped out I was surprised and I asked one of the magical what happened so they talked to a bunch of the girls and they said the girls said if I stay in this chorus I'm gonna have to change my life and I don't want to so when you say should I pick a seminary that's going to present views that are different than my own or should I only go someplace where they're going to echo what I already believe in so a lot of that has to do with what your general approach to life is if you're sure that you're right and you're sure that you're Mahalo is correct stay on safe ground but if you want to expose yourself to other ideas then maybe you should consider someplace that's different than where you are simply to be able to hear those different ideas and expose yourself to different concepts and again if you're afraid that that may shake you up don't do it there was a fellow passed away he was here in Israel David Hartman the Hartman Institute and the story goes and again I didn't confirm this I'm not a so Chrome but the story goes that he wanted to go off and study philosophy and he asked his reverence elevate chicken we could study philosophy no very salvaging that his doctoral thesis on so obviously he thinks philosophy is okay you know so he asked if I could go study philosophy so he says what's the problem he says I might become a nappy curse he says listen every time you get in a plane plane crash that doesn't mean you never go on a plane years later he sent her salivate took a letter it was a very short one it just said the plane crashed so it could be that you could expose yourself to different ideas and not only different ideas like I brushed over it the type of girls who go there there was a guy who was a tongue em came from an excellent family and but sister Tyra a master mechanic and he was a great boy and he he went to the mirror he ended with her bad dear and his father was so upset because he said he had friends they could have told the Mo's the bed to the kid today is not from shoe took much mom look on the valus makalah Shabbos oh are you sure you want to expose yourself to all different types of things you end up going to a seminary you didn't know this grace the girls listen to music that you don't listen to or the girls are involved with boys or there are other things that are going on people go to a particular seminary and then they go away too you know the girls all form little gangs and on they go away for for Shabbos to a relative who doesn't maintain the standards that they maintain the exposed to stuff they get involved with things they didn't consider this so the question is a lot of it depends on what your goal is and it goes back to the first question why are you going to seminary do you want to expose yourself to new ideas and and different things what do you want a place that's going to to echo what it is you want already and I can make an argument for both sides I'm not judging here I'm not saying this is right and this is wrong I can understand if a person wants to be in a safe spot and I can understand if a person wants to be an intellectual whether that means hearing ideas from the right or from the left or whichever way you want to go I understand that but you have to be clear beforehand what it is you're trying to accomplish be real I always tell people be real you have to decide what is it that I'm trying to say what is it that I'm trying to accomplished what do I want at the end of the day this woman used to come in the summer she's take classes in there it's shell and she said to me it's so different here because I live in whatever community is in America because people you know don't like when I mentioned communities because they think that I'm attacking the entire community I'm not I'm just telling the stories that happened but okay I won't mention but a well-established religious community and she says I go to a hill Keshava sheer there and I have a neighbor whose sons learning kollel that daughter's married boys letting kollel vary from and I saw her and I said you know I heard the the most amazing thing in my hills of Shabbos class and she said don't tell me I have enough hollow cos already I don't need anymore okay okay why are people afraid to hear ideas so there are people were afraid they have enough I like where I am in life I'm not looking to change I'm not looking to to make my life different it's it's working for me and I hear that so that's just a a aspect of the question we're obviously not done with this topic we got more to talk about but that's what we wanted to talk about at least for this part of the of the series and that's it for this week if you want to find out more about the podcasts go to reverie or Lasky comm we can add comments see my upcoming event schedule contact me directly if you want to sponsor an episode go to rebel offski that calm slash podcast and click on the sponsor an episode button I am Deborah Orlowski and this is the raviolo Sookie show [Music]